29 ms·

Firefox removed Yandex search option

349 points by leosarev 5y ago

infamouscow 5y ago
mistrial9 5y ago
can we recognize the difference between civilians (people) and armed participants in conflict (military) in this discussion?
- leosarev 5y ago
  Why this even relevant? I want to talk about Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user, which was their promise for years. I don't see difference between them doing it for political message, or Google doing it for profit.
  - throwmeariver1 5y ago
    Are they? Do you know about their contract with yandex? You are emotional about something that is 100% financial in nature. If it wouldn’t be you can bet that with the Mozilla Foundation being the way they are in the last years would ponder themselves with a blog post or at least a tweet. Money talks or in this case it doesn’t anymore.
    - leosarev 5y ago
      I'm ok with them cancelling contract with Yandex and changing defaults. I'm not ok with them removing this OPTION from browser.
      - throwmeariver1 5y ago
        Do you really believe the options provided are provided without the services paying for it?
        ogurechny 5y ago
        Back in the days of sane version numbers, localized bookmarks and other stuff relied on local community input. Promotions were solitary and visible, just from their URL parameters. It changed when browser started to be seen as only a muzzle that sucks the meat source into data processing pipeline.
    - Brian_K_White 5y ago
      I doesn't matter why, what and how are damning enough on their own. A legit change in some deal does not explain several aspects of this update. When something doesn't add up, you are supposed to scrutinize it, not just assume it's fine. If it was fine, then why wasn't there an honest explanation? Mozilla did a bad thing. If our speculations about the why are wrong, it doesn't change anything about what is wrong with this update. But even the speculation is fair game in this case because the update lacks all the normal and expected justification and explaination of any other merge request. Feel free to explain the above-board reason they made quite this nature of update in quite this peculiar way. What other updates to your browser should be ok to just take blindly with no explanation? The immagination staggers.
      - throwmeariver1 5y ago
        It’s their browser not yours if you don’t trust them use something else. I keep away from defaults especially search because they are usually paid for and not in good faith. They also dropped yandex two times already and you guessed it right… because of monetary reasons. This is not the smoking gun you want it to be.
        ogurechny 5y ago
        “Their” browser is useless pile of code when it's not being run on someone's computer. My own computer, for example. Which is not their computer at all. You people seem to be totally brainwashed by corporate bullshit.
        throwmeariver1 5y ago
        ogurechny 5y ago
        That statement was not Firefox-specific. Marketing bullshit about saints above blessing lowly ignorant masses incapable of independent action with fad-of-the-year software (with a not so nice user agreement) should not be tolerated. We can all laugh at people who can't change a search engine, and call them dumb, but when something like Mozilla decides “these users are dumb, they get used to it”, it's a tad different story.
    - kelnos 5y ago
      > Do you know about their contract with yandex? I frankly don't care. I don't use Yandex, but if I did, I'd be really pissed off at this move. Firefox shouldn't be including only search engines that pay a fee; they should be including all search engines that their users might find useful.
      - floatboth 5y ago
        The browser is provided for free. Selling search defaults/inclusions is by far the least intrusive way to make money to fund the development of the browser.
        ipaddr 5y ago
        Least? Least would be fundraising in Hollywood not selling out default preferences to the highest bidder. Almost all browsers are free. All major and minor ones are free.
        clucas 5y ago
        I suspect that if Firefox got most of its funding from Hollywood, it would be even more susceptible to the politics-du-jour. Why do you think high-profile fundraising would make Firefox more independent?
        ipaddr 5y ago
        More user friendly browser without sponsored search engine defaults. More Mozilla fluff projects don't have to cross my life path.
  - MisterSandman 5y ago
    Can't you just, like, manually add Yandex as a search option?
    - vbezhenar 5y ago
      You would need to have some skills for that. My grandma wouldn’t be able to do that and this change would disrupt her workflow. Not the end of the world, but this is user hostile change. I’m fine with removal of this engine for new installs, but pulling the rag under existing users is wrong. This anti-Russian madness gone completely out of control. I bet this change alone will drive a significant chunk of Russian Firefox users to Yandex Browser. Unlikely the intention of Firefox developers but here we go.
  - bastawhiz 5y ago
    > Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user Did they? You can still add Yandex back manually (and trivially), it's just not included with the stock install.
    - ogurechny 5y ago
      It was not “just not included”, it was removed for everyone, no matter whether they wanted to use it or not. Maybe lizardmen from Mozilla are so detached they consider that all users just suck up and eat what's on the plate today, but some regular people use Yandex search because they have mail there, keep themselves logged in, have configured other services, need something for their work daily, yada yada. So they open the browser and see a tiny panel stating “FUCK YOU”. And it's not tech-savvy users (responding with “fuck you too” and fixing the problem) who get bitten and poached, it's the regular people. There is a reason to think the actual goal of all that radio silence was preventing people from trivially switching to Yandex manually in advance of the change.
      - bastawhiz 5y ago
        OpenSearch is a standard. Visit Yandex in Firefox today, and you'll see Firefox happily offer to add Yandex to your search dropdown. The green plus shows you that it's an option. https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz It's also in the right click menu for the address bar. Why does Mozilla need to include Yandex as a default option?
        ogurechny 5y ago
        I know that. The whole thing started for me today when I advised a user on some web forum this exact way of bringing it back. Then, out of interest, I dug into the code and the bug tracker, only to find that absolutely nothing was stated about the changes, even though they have been cooking for a month¹. My first real browser was steel-gray Mozilla Suite, back then I opened as many forum topics in tabs as it was possible during a free promotional 5 minute modem connection. The problem is not inclusion by default, the problem is unwarranted unconditional removal, whether it is default or not, and whether it is needed or not. Mozilla has decided the pretend it happened “by itself”, but it was their decision, and they had an option to switch people to non-sponsored Yandex search. ¹) http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-...
  - tomjen3 5y ago
- mantas 5y ago
  sure, right after we recognize how a society is related to it's government and military.
- smt88 5y ago
  The deal is simple: when Russia stops slaughtering Ukrainian civilians, the rest of the world will stop isolating their economy. It's much like the shipping blockades that were used against the European Axis countries in WWII. Russian civilians should consider themselves lucky that the war is only economic for them.
  - BuckRogers 5y ago
    - smt88 5y ago
      I don't think it's controversial that Putin deserves to be ousted by a foreign military as much as anyone. He's certainly much more powerful and dangerous than Stalin or Hitler because he can unilaterally end human life on earth at any moment of any day. > Install anyone else that's not insane, say Navalny. Well, we definitely couldn't install anyone. We'd have to administrate an open election. > I read they have 50% of their total combat brigades in Ukraine now. This is a pretty antiquated assessment of military power. Boots on the ground show only that Russia wants to take Ukraine rather than completely destroy it. They can level the entire country with tactical nukes if they want. > Installing a leader that is open to integrating with the west, along with India, we could encircle China and force them into peaceful deescalation. I think it's more likely that we'd make China very dangerous and hostile, and we'd also re-open the world to the possibility of foreign regime change. If we can decapitate Russia, why couldn't someone say, "Hey, this Biden guy stole the election, we should murder him for the good of the American people!" Biden didn't steal the election, but I think you see where I'm going with it.
      - mistrial9 5y ago
        from my understanding of the development of the international oil trade in the 20th century, one of the key advancements by multinational oil in the West was to learn lessons from the British, and do two important things on foreign soil: always back a leader that can hold on with local support; always pay the Nationalist/Military oil interests very well, in addition to making trade rights built-in. Unfortunately, it seems that the "wild west" behavior of the USA in South America, in the wake of the brutal Spanish conquest long ago, made some enemies (that have oil) that are not easy to talk to now.
- older 5y ago
  No. Not until this changes: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/
- asveikau 5y ago
  Sorry to go there, but reports are that the Russian Federation is not currently making this distinction in Ukraine right now.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - nelsondev 5y ago
    Two wrongs don’t make a right.
    - asveikau 5y ago
      That's correct. And we can't draw false equivalences either; we should consider the scale of the wrong. For example, I would consider loss of life to be quite a bit worse than loss of Yandex.
      - thway0987 5y ago
        We should indeed. But we shouldn't use that to justify, excuse or dismiss any wrongs done that isn't at the scale of other wrongs.
      - parineum 5y ago
        >For example, I would consider loss of life to be quite a bit worse than loss of Yandex. That'd be a fine choice if it was actually the choice. Instead you lose Yandex and all the people still die.
  - ummonk 5y ago
    Even if that were true (it’s not - high collateral damage is not the same as not making a distinction), that doesn’t justify us deciding to also treat Russian civilians as military.
    - mmastrac 5y ago
      Putting pressure on Russian citizens motivates them to protest and take action inside of their country. The Ukrainians didn't have a choice either. I'd much rather have the US heavily-handededly knock down the Russian economy than the alternative of involving itself militarily.
- curiousgal 5y ago
  [Laughs in Iranian]
- JohnWhigham 5y ago
  War isn't supposed to be, and never has been, fair.
mananaysiempre 5y ago
Looking at the diff[1], this seems to remove Yandex-, Odnoklassniki-, and Mail.Ru-related bundled bookmarks and extensions (that apparently exist in some build configurations?), if this removes the search option as well it does not seem obvious. (The editorialized submission title is obviously against HN guidelines, but it’s unclear what should be done about it if the original page title is purposefully obscure—and it does seem to be, even given what I said above. Wait for independent reporting to use a more straightforward one?..) [1] https://hg.mozilla.org/integration/autoland/rev/a03a9c72d1db https://hg.mozilla.org/integration/autoland/rev/a03a9c72d1db
- leosarev 5y ago
  Yes, it's does remove search option. See this article (sorry, in Russian) but s-shot is missing yandex https://vc.ru/services/379414-poiskovik-yandeksa-propal-iz-nastroek-brauzera-mozilla-firefox https://vc.ru/services/379414-poiskovik-yandeksa-propal-iz-n...
  - mananaysiempre 5y ago
    Not sure it’s the right patch though. (Does a search engine need an extension to support being used for omnibox search? It might.) In any case, the two ultimate sources of the linked report seem to be: Grigory Bakunov[1] (ex-Yandex) observes Yandex has been removed (but e.g. OZON is still there): https://t.me/addmeto/4782 https://t.me/addmeto/4782 (ru, but basically amounts to a screenshot) Mozilla posts a vague note saying the “default search engine” (NB: omnibox default, not just installation default) may change in Firefox 98, no specific engines are named: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal (en) [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4076123 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4076123
    - fotta 5y ago
      > Does a search engine need an extension to support being used for omnibox search? It might. No, IIRC it just needs to have an appropriate OpenSearch xml file to have support for omnibox. I use a third-party engine that isn't bundled in FF and it works fine in omnibox.
thriftwy 5y ago
jehy 5y ago
ogurechny 5y ago
My submission was flagged because of the phrase “golden shower”, huh. Copying it here: https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-release/shortlog/35fe60c82cf055b425d1196a394dcc4cd0d09d44 https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-release/shortlog/35f... Basically, Firefox 98.0.1 is a point release only concerned with removing Yandex search for users in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Russia, and Turkey, and switching them all to Google by default. Some old promotions from mail.ru and ok.ru were blocked, too, but these have been dead as a doornail and irrelevant. Note the smoking gun: regular Google links were used in configuration file on 11 March, and then were switched to firefox-tagged (sponsored) ones on 13 March (“part 2”). Why couldn't Mozilla switch Yandex search users to regular Yandex links the same way if they reportedly had “troubles” with their agreement, which supposedly would be the best for the users, and best for Mozilla, apparently? Imagine their wet faces when they beg on their knees for more after successful extension of Google's sponsorship agreement onto 4 big countries, and you'll know why. The changelog for 98.0.1 is currently absent. The changelog for 98 has a vague note about search engines. The relevant code-related bugs have zero explanations. Bug 1748923 is private. The UI that alerts the user about the removed search engine was introduced two weeks ago (and had it text changed to be more vague). There is a specific (and vague) help article about the switch: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal However, the first signs were noticed about a month ago (in Russian): https://www.opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=56721 https://www.opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=56721 As usual with Mozilla, there were bugs. Users of previous version of Firefox that automatically update the list of search engines but have no UI to warn them about the changes got it removed silently. I personally don't use Yandex, its results for IT-related English language queries have been quite shitty, in all honesty, for many years, most likely because of the supposed full-on focus on keeping the existing (mostly non-English-speaking) users. However, it's another nice example of treating people like swine by those who have even a tiny bit of power over them. Oh, we're used to that, thank you very much.
- ksec 5y ago
  >My submission was flagged because of the phrase “golden shower”, In 99.9% of cases HN dont accept editorialised headline. Although I have no idea why this current post is also flagged as well. Firefox removed Yandex is a perfectly valid description. May be it should get rid of the latter part.
dotcoma 5y ago
I wish they removed Google...
- oh_sigh 5y ago
  Hard to pass up $500M/yr
  - dotcoma 5y ago
    Do they really need all that money? They could perhaps get good money, even if considerably less, from DDG.
    - stu2b50 5y ago
      Well, yes. It’s almost all of their annual revenue and Mozilla already had huge layoffs[0], so presumably they’re not exactly on amazing footing financially. Duckduckgo could not provide anything near that much - ddg has 100m in annual revenue and Google is giving 500m to Mozilla. 5x their entire company’s annual revenue. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/11/21363424/mozilla-layoffs-quarter-staff-250-people-new-revenue-focus https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/11/21363424/mozilla-layoffs-...
      - SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
        If an organisation can be in financial trouble with an annual income of half a billion then it's poorly run. That's ample resources even for something as complex as a browser.
        queuebert 5y ago
        You could do a lot of science for $500M. I wonder where all that money goes for a mostly complete piece of software.
        blindmute 5y ago
nix0n 5y ago
The release notes for 98.0.1[0] are more clear: > Yandex and Mail.ru have been removed as optional search providers in the drop-down search menu in Firefox. [0]https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/98.0.1/releasenotes/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/98.0.1/releasenotes/
- ogurechny 5y ago
  Note that is the first ever straightforward announcement of the removal accessible to the end user, and it wasn't even available when release happened (about 12 hours ago). It's like giving a hard hat to a man that has already got to the emergency room.
  - saghm 5y ago
    That seems a bit overdramatic; it's not like people couldn't still access those search engines at all in Firefox; they just would have to go directly to the website instead of using the dropdown menu. I'd imagine that typing the name of one of them into Google or DuckDuckGo would lead to their site pretty easily
    - ogurechny 5y ago
      It's easy to fix. However, Mozilla gets a boatload of money each year for specific handling of those who don't understand that.
      - TremendousJudge 5y ago
        In theory, they get it for that reason. In practice, the actual reasons is that if Mozilla went under, Google would potentially have an anti-monopoly case on their hands. Or at least they think it's cheaper to pay Mozilla than to maybe find out if it's the case.
        ogurechny 5y ago
        I believe Google knows better than anyone that market dominance is achieved not by “code quality”, or “features”, or “ease of use”, etc., but by attacking the clueless user with ads and press releases, and bundling the browser with crap like Ultimate Super Image Converter 2011, and paying generously for other sources of traffic. (Sorry, Google engineers doing incredible high-tech stuff, you're at most playing the role of exotic animals in the zoo attracting people who then proceed to sad low-tech data swindling.) It might be less noticeable in the West, where Google hasn't really been challenged, but it was different in Russia. When Yandex had to switch to “defend the user share” mode, it stopped announcing interesting things (it used to please the public with nice stuff here and cool stuff there, and implemented some of that long before Google), and double downed on all that dumb crap (having the browser you fully control, having three ads to install it on a single page, pushing it into everything, and so on).
fithisux 5y ago
Firefox takes sides based on politics not justice. I may need to seek a more "free" alternative
- Tagbert 5y ago
  This seems to be solidly on the side of justice.
  - m0ngr31 5y ago
    Should they have blocked Google and Bing after the invasion of Iraq?
    - kazinator 5y ago
      Bing didn't exist in 2003 (launched in 2009), and I don't think that Firefox ("Firebird" at the time) had a search bar with search engines.
      - Dunedan 5y ago
        That got me curious, so I fired up some old versions of Mozilla Phoenix and checked that out. Turns out already Mozilla Phoenix 0.2 (https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/releases/0.2/ https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/releases/0.2/), released on October 1, 2002, which was the version which originally introduced the search bar, offered the ability to select different search providers.
        kazinator 5y ago
        Hey, that's interesting. Thanks for looking into it!
      - max599 5y ago
        Bombing civilians in the middle east didn't stop in 2009.
- kevingadd 5y ago
fleddr 5y ago
Never before was the open internet challenged this hard, and never before has it failed so hard. Under pressure, every single thing is subject to politics and cancellation: browsers, search engines, search results, social media, cloud infrastructure, payment systems and even money itself. None pass the test of being open or neutral. At this rate, your much hated crypto folks may actually start to have a point. Kind of like a lunatic sometimes being accidentally right. Note the downvotes, for my sin of even mentioning the word "crypto".
- notavalleyman 5y ago
  Yandex is hardly a politically neutral web service, though
  - dionian 5y ago
    We used to be able to say AP, Reuters, NYTimes aren't partisan, and we used to be able to joke about RU news being Pravda-style propaganda. Unfortunately, we can no longer really mock the Russians this way with a straight face, as we have now started to look more like Soviet Russia.
    - dTal 5y ago
      Please. Let me know when people start getting sent to gulags - or simply killed - for publicly rejecting the official (single) party line of the United States. The false equivalence is getting out of control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...
      - nelsondev 5y ago
        This just happened. (In Canada, not the US, but similar countries.) Here is a story about police rounding up protestors and sending them to jail. https://news.yahoo.com/police-arrest-dozens-blockading-canadas-233457641.html https://news.yahoo.com/police-arrest-dozens-blockading-canad... > Police chief: “Last night we began to take additional actions towards implementing our operation. We moved officers and equipment into key positions throughout the city and took up 100 checkpoints around the downtown core. We began making arrests of key individuals who were responsible for organizing these unlawful activities. (flash) As of 3pm today we’ve arrested 70 people. They’ve been charged with multiple various offenses including mischief.” Here is a story about accounts of protestors being frozen, preventing them from paying bail to get out of jail. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-protest-finances.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-pro... > But for one protest organizer who was arrested last week, the effect was more immediate. The organizer, Tamara Lich, said she had been frozen out of all of her accounts and could come up with only 5,000 Canadian dollars for bail.
ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago
Firefox was going off the rails for a while now. Notice, the worse they become the more they will indulge in politics, censorship, emotional blackmail instead of doing their jobs: building a better browser.
- raintrees 5y ago
  Maybe they just need a better slogan... like... build browser better ;)
- sharikous 5y ago
  I don't understand this claim. If Mozilla is so awful at developing Firefox, why isn't anyone forking it? Open source is not an empty slogan
  - grapeskin 5y ago
    Browsers today are massive projects to maintain. They're basically entire OSes and software suites at this point. The days of a browser that can be maintained by 2 guys and updated once every 16 months and still be decent are long gone. That said, I can recognize that developing and maintaining a browser is a massive undertaking while also acknowledging a project taken a turn for the worse. A lot of software these days has weird priorities (most involving cramming more ads in).
  - lmm 5y ago
    Open source is mostly an empty slogan in Firefox's case - it was a code dump from Netscape and it's never really been able to attract outside contributions. If you want a browser that was actually built as open source, Konqueror has been right there for decades, but users don't care about that.
  - hyperhopper 5y ago
    Because nobody forks things that are bad?
  - cute_boi 5y ago
    I have contributed to both Firefox and chrome, and the amount of legacy code in Firefox makes it so arcane & recondite. They haven't even upgraded jsm, xpcom etc.. And if you apply your logic to chromium. It is being forked and there are many browser like Vivaldi, Brave, Edge etc.. Open Source is definitely not an empty slogan. If there is product A and B, people will choose A if A is better, easier to maintain and popular.
fortnum 5y ago
Have been a strong(!) advocate for Firefox for years. Now it is time to switch. Not sure where to yet, Chrome is not any better, Palemoon is not exactly well supported. Maybe Brave, Vivaldi, or Opera, though they are all Chrome-based as well. Difficult decision and not very happy about it, as I do think we need more than just one browser engine, but I can't support Mozilla any more.
- bobmichael 5y ago
  Why? Honest question.
  - fortnum 5y ago
    Honest answer :) Because I do not condone that move. It will be difficult because I have been using Firefox for years and tried to avoid anything Chrome-based and I am not very happy with Google's Manifest v3 approach, but Mozilla just crossed a red line for me.
    - krisoft 5y ago
      > Because I do not condone that move. Thank you for your answer. Could you elaborate on it? Is it a software freedom question to you? Or perhaps a free speech one?
      - fortnum 5y ago
        krisoft 5y ago
        No worries, perfectly understandable. Emotions are high now. Have a nice day!
        alogray 5y ago
        Making a reply to say you won’t make a reply because a reply you make could be downvoted does not really follow. Can folk who disagree with you not just now downvote this reply, both for political disagreements but also wasting everyone’s time?
jbverschoor 5y ago
nickysielicki 5y ago
I’ve been using yandex as my open-source/public/spam-heavy email provider for a handful of years. Ignoring the current conflict, the yandex product is pretty good. Their search is, IMO, second only to Google, at least for technical queries. Edit: probably going to just buy a domain and protonmail as a contingency plan, though. Don’t want to lose access.
- Destiner 5y ago
  Definitely consider migrating off Yandex. If (when) it will be required by gov to choose either staying in russia or outside of russia, it will choose the former.
  - nickysielicki 5y ago
    Literally took me 15 minutes. Now to begin the process of changing the email on a few dozen accounts... me@nslick.com
    - amingilani 5y ago
      I made the mistake of posting an email address on HN. I get a lot of spam on it now. I know it's because of HN because the email address is hackernews@domain. It's like a tsunami of spam and phishing emails.
      - nickysielicki 5y ago
        bring it on, it'll give me the opportunity to tweak my notmuch filtering
- ogurechny 5y ago
  Sadly, search quality for “the rest of the world” has been neglected for years, and it's a miracle yandex.com still works. Mail is one of the services that is kept up to date, with translations and stuff, and it's nice. As for the global issues, a) Iron curtain for the Internet (i. e. absolutely everything not working properly) would be a sure way to get every commoner, currently soothed with entertainment, on the street. b) This won't last long anyway. I would be more worried about sudden drop of funding and technical issues.
rvz 5y ago
Who pressurized Mozilla this time for this virtue signaling move? Surely they should have removed Google search by now and replaced it with a privacy friendly alternative since Google has been known to be involved with mass surveillance and having contracts and actively working with the three-letter agencies and simply handing over your data to them? Once again, they still can’t move on from Google nor can they get rid of them since they are on life support with their money. Firefox is compromised, even with DuckDuckGo. Might as well switch to Brave Browser and use Brave Search.
- moltke 5y ago
  Might as well use elinks honestly. I can't remember the last site I went to that really needed a modern browser and wasn't just a replacement for an "app." Firefox is there for my bank account, my brokerage, and Discord. Everything else is either handled by open source tools or elinks.
justsomehnguy 5y ago
MS: *changes the user's search engine* Everyone: *gasps* Mozilla: *changes the user's search engine* Everyone: *claps* IMHO: messing with the user's settings (especially without a proper warning and a cause) should not be condoned.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
thbw 5y ago
Throwaway for obvious reasons. This is hypocrisy of Western democracy. I can't recall when Google was removed after US invaded so many countries. Why do Western companies oppress free speech when it doesn't match their narrative (Julian Assange, now Russian media)? Why not give Russian "propaganda" tell its narratives and let people decide? Are you afraid of their truth/"truth" or are you afraid people will follow them? If you think people are stupid to decide, why do you allow them to even vote for a President of a country? Why US thinks it is ok to expand NATO to the borders of Russia, but didn't think Soviet military in Cuba is ok? Where are all liberals fighting for human rights and free speech? * US invasion - good guys killing bad guys * Russian invasion - bad guys killing good guys * China human right violations - "west" only condemns, because we are too much dependent on cheap products. * US tells Iraq has biological weapons - yeah let's start the war. * Russia tells Ukraine has biological weapons - yeah, propaganda as usual. I have so many questions, but pretty sure no one is going to answer them constructively thanks to cancel culture (and the reason for throw away account) where "liberals" cancel you if they don't agree with you, responses I might get "whataboutism" I am anti-war in all countries, because at the end of the day ordinary people suffer. But why people are demanding protests from Russian people to overthrow Putin (which I doubt they can, unless their military people decide to support) when they weren't able to stop war in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other US invaded country by protesting? Do you think you have moral rights to ask Russian people to do something when you were silent, when you couldn't even save Julian Assange? (by the way I am not Russian) Stop pretending you are right! Give other side chance to speak! As a long time Firefox user, this saddens me!
- zmmmmm 5y ago
  I think there are a lot of moral compromises, contradictions, and hypocrisy as you outline. However, the alternative to throwing everything non-violent at Russia, is actual military intervention. Essentially, very high risk of real WW3. The Iraq invasion was a huge mistake. Russia's invading Ukraine is a huge mistake. Generally, war is a huge mistake. If there is anything non-violent left to try, I can't blame anybody for trying that. This is one tiny, tiny small thing.
  - thbw 5y ago
thbw 5y ago
Let me repeat Firefox vision: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/VisionStatement#Product_vision_statement https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/VisionStatement#Product_vis... > Discover, experience and connect with apps, websites and people on your own terms, everywhere. Why do you not give people choice on their own terms, everywhere?
- yoasif_ 5y ago
  People can use whatever search engine they want - how is that not on their own terms?
- userbinator 5y ago
  Mozilla has been absolutely full of corporate doublespeak for a long time. https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-privacy-philosophy/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-privacy... "we develop products and advocate for best practices that put users in control of their data and online experiences." https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/celebrating-choice-control-and-independence-on-the-web/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/celebrating-cho... "We put people in control of their online experience" The page description for the Firefox main page used to say "Firefox is created by a global non-profit dedicated to putting individuals in control online", and before that, instead of "individuals" it said "users". I've quipped before that the change was because they really meant "people working at Mozilla" by "individuals". Now it's something vague about "respecting your privacy" (just like what Facebook and Google claim to do too...)
  - ttybird2 5y ago
    It is also misleading because afaik Firefox is developed by Mozilla Corporation instead of the foundation. It has been mentioned before that donations to the foundation can't go into developing firefox.
- busymom0 5y ago
  Slightly related. I changed my default browser just today back to Safari. In Firefox, I would usually click the first two items on the home page which would be photopea or reddit. Today, they put 2 sponsored items for Amazon and Trivago instead and I accidentally clicked the amazon one without realizing because that first item was supposed to be Photopea. That was enough to piss me off. https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png
perihelions 5y ago
Here's a workaround to add an arbitrary non-blessed search engine as the default (i.e. what the omnibar points to): https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-engine-firefox#w_add-a-search-engine-from-the-search-bar https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-en... Be aware that in Firefox, the "Search Bar" is a distinct widget from the "Address Bar" (omnibar/"awesomebar"). If it's missing or you can't find it, here's the docs for that UX flow: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customize-firefox-controls-buttons-and-toolbars#w_customize-the-overflow-menu-or-the-toolbar https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customize-firefox-contr... If you do this, you can (of course) revert your change in about:preferences#search; the new search engine will persist there as an alternate choice. (Tested and confirmed this works with e.g. Yandex in release version 98.0.1. This patch only removed, essentially, Firefox' promoted or sponsored search engines -- not core functionality. (It also erased and reset user preferences, but that's a separate problem)).
- yoasif_ 5y ago
  The Omnibar is Chromium/Chrome specific. The Firefox address bar is also known as the awesomebar, but has never been known as the omnibar. https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/a-little-something-awesome-about-firefox-3/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/a-little-something-aweso...
  - gkop 5y ago
    I've heard omnibar used to describe the more general UX pattern of providing at a focal point a single freetext input that surfaces items across collections. It's a neat pattern because it's both pretty and can be useful. I'll take your word for it it came from Chrome's Omnibar, the timeline in my memory lines up.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - perihelions 5y ago
    TIL, thanks! I've added that word. (In my defense, even the support.mozilla.org docs themselves seem to avoid it; the one I linked only refers to it as "address bar").
MarkLowenstein 5y ago
This is why I haven't let my Firefox update itself for the last 1.5 years. The kids are in charge; you can't trust the product.
qqq111 5y ago
nodesocket 5y ago
Doesn’t anybody else see how the massive fist waving censorship of Russian businesses (which by the way may not endorse the war in Ukraine) is hypocritical to the entire point of the internet and free speech? I’ve been saying it, and I’ll repeat it again. Since when did liberals lose the ideology of free thinking and speech and go on a quest of cancel everything that may not fit squarely and neatly in their world. It wreaks of elitism.
- MarkLowenstein 5y ago
  Very few people understand why free speech/assembly is valuable anymore. That's why it is going extinct faster than the California condor. The intelligence of the people is the security of the nation. --Daniel Webster
  - nodesocket 5y ago
    While I appreciated the comparison (lol’d), turns out that California condors are on the rise and nearly 25x (estimate) as many now then at the lowest point.
    - MarkLowenstein 5y ago
      They were saved only by an emergency captive-breeding program. I'm hoping liberalism doesn't require the same intervention!
- AmVess 5y ago
  Liberals never embraced free thought and free speech. Now, they are actively censoring anything, anyone, or whatever they don't like. I don't need to be told what to think by a group of people unable to think at all.
mlindner 5y ago
stereoradonc 5y ago
Cancel culture comes to browsers. I never thought I'd type this in my lifetime.
- userbinator 5y ago
  The frog has been slowly boiling for a while. Remember this? https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...
- norvvryo 5y ago
  Really? It seems like a foregone conclusion. These censorious tyrants have been chipping away at the pillars of Western civilization for quite a while now. They'll hand-wave criticism by bringing up things like the "slippery slope fallacy." Don't be fooled. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
- oceanplexian 5y ago
  Honestly, I’m grateful that it’s happening out in the open. It’s been illuminating for me who really stands by Liberal Democracy, and the ideals of Free Speech and Freedom of Expression, and who are the posers. If you can’t advocate for the rights of people you disagree with you never really stood for anything in the first place.
bhk 5y ago
Mozilla supports the "current thing"! How can any Firefox user feel safe that they won't be on the wrong side of the next current thing?
sjmm1989 5y ago
It's a shame that Yandex is getting this treatment... It's translation service is by my opinion far better, since I have been able to use it very effectively to converse with anyone around the world in their native tongue. Google... ... I learned the hard way that google is not that great at translating. It seems good, to those who haven't found out why it's bad. P.S. I can basically copy and paste a yandex translation for any language. Doing the same with a google translation has gotten me some very confused messages back. Many times. I guess I should be clearer about that.
- shyiko 5y ago
  Yandex has been promoting Russian propaganda/censoring Navalny/etc. for years and you complain about inconvenience of using a different translation service?
  - sjmm1989 5y ago
    Annndddd our own media conglomerates will shill propaganda and censor people who they disagree with all the time as well. Not saying that this exonerates Russia or Yandex, but if you think we shouldn't be able to use Yandex's translation service because of the other things it has done; then you best get ready to stop using google, facebook, reddit and twitter too; along with all the services attached to them. They all have been just as bad in their own ways. Look. I just said it was a shame that this all means that we won't be able to use a superior auto-translation product. How is that a problem. It just means someone who can do better than Google would be wise to step up, because someone like me is saying there is a market for a better product than what Google is offering. That's the thing about sanctions and such. When you take away some things, you gotta try to replace them somehow with something as good or better. And all I am saying is Google ain't it. Edit: https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/14/dpc-sued-google-rtb-complaint/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/14/dpc-sued-google-rtb-compla... Here, look. Now yes, that is about the watchdog being sued over not doing their job correctly; but look at who the culprit is and what they were doing. Google. Being naughty, once again.
    - shyiko 5y ago
okay475008 5y ago
Madmallard 5y ago
This is really cringeworthy
NelsonMinar 5y ago
It's worth remembering any discussion you see about Russian tech topics right now is almost certainly influenced by paid Russian propaganda agents. Here's two news articles that may provide more carefully edited context. https://www.zdnet.com/article/firefox-98-0-1-has-one-big-change-remove-yandex-and-mail-ru-as-custom-offerings/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/firefox-98-0-1-has-one-big-cha... https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/mozilla-firefox-removes-russia-based-search-engine-yandex-from-settings-amid-ukraine-war-articleshow.html https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-cris...
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  It's time to ban Russian geo IPs from HN.
  - lebed2045 5y ago
    Cancel culture at its finest. Next logical step would be add mandatory KYC login and ban based of nationality/race.
- TobyTheDog123 5y ago
  Do you mean that the discussion here could be paid Russian propaganda, or that this post is? I’m not sure how a link to the Mozilla bug tracker could be taken out of context.
  - NelsonMinar 5y ago
    I mean some of the comments here, and in the Bugzilla discussions, and in any other discussion you read online. I am not trying to call out any specific comment here, nor the original post, which is barely about Yandex at all.
- oceanplexian 5y ago
  It’s also worth remembering that any Russian tech topics are influenced by paid American propaganda agents. What is the point exactly? Argument should be made on their merits not based on who is making them.
totorovirus 5y ago
Is it necessary to boycott private firms that didn't necessarily support the government decision? Or is there any proof that they actually played a role in current ukraine situation?
- staticassertion 5y ago
  My understanding is that results from Yandex were spreading propaganda from Russia, backing up the false narrative that they hadn't done anything, or that everyone in Ukraine is a nazi, etc. Would love to hear more if anyone has information, I'm possibly misremembering. Also, private companies are an important part of a nation's economy. Restricting them surely impacts that nation, so the idea seems sound?
  - tananaev 5y ago
    Yandex News are definitely in line with Russian government propaganda. It's a news aggregator, so it might look like propaganda because all popular news outlets are propaganda. Not sure if they filter anything themselves. But I think it still makes sense to put a pressure on the company anyway.
    - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
      > ...Russian government propaganda. It's a news aggregator, so it might look like propaganda because all popular news outlets are propaganda. Not sure if they filter anything themselves. But I think it still makes sense to put a pressure on the company anyway. As opposed to what Western News Media coverage on the war has turned into, aka, more Propaganda? The middle ground is not promoting our own Propaganda instead, which is what pushing everyone to Western Search Engines (Agitprop search really).
      - dagenix 5y ago
      - staticassertion 5y ago
mmastrac 5y ago
I am consistently disappointed by any thread involving Mozilla on Hacker News. Somehow Mozilla is held to an impossible standard. For the one company out there holding the internet away from a WebKit monoculture, they sure get the short end of the stick by people here.
- oefrha 5y ago
  Because people want to see them spend their efforts on holding the Internet back from a WebKit monoculture, and donate to that cause, but they keep wasting resources on political activism, pointless bs like time-limited themes, etc. while downsizing their engineering team. Not doing those isn’t “impossible”, in fact they go out of their way to disappoint people with those distractions.
  - powersnail 5y ago
    I don't think Firefox actually takes donation anyway. It's specifically put under Mozilla Corporation so it can generate profit.
    - oefrha 5y ago
      Yes, I’m aware of that. People would like to donate specifically to Firefox development though, and some donate to Mozilla Foundation under the impression that it would help. I’ve certainly done that in the past.
      - kome 5y ago
        yes, but donations is not a business model
        sjtindell 5y ago
        Huh? There are tons of organizations (charities) for whom it is the business model.
tuyguntn 5y ago
voting with my pocket, deleting Firefox
vzaliva 5y ago
I applaud this decision. My friends are killed by russian forces in Ukraine and majority of russian public is kept in dark about this war thanks to support by Yandex to spread the official propaganda.
- OrvalWintermute 5y ago
  Most in the West are in the dark about the historical Eastern Ukrainian vs Western Ukrainian War, the constant shelling, the human right abuses, and the wanton execution of civilians in East Ukraine. If we are going to permit US govt Agitprop, maybe we should permit historicals, and their Agitprop as well.
mario_kart_snes 5y ago
userbinator 5y ago
I wonder if the decision was due to legal issues, or perhaps pressure from sponsors. After all, they just very recently decided to spam everyone with a very clearly sponsored advert: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665493 I bet this is another move that won't gain them any marketshare either. It's sad that "at least we're better than Chrome" seems to have become the only real redeeming praise of Firefox/Mozilla, and I think that's exactly what the management at Mozilla and Google realises --- both browsers are heading in the same hostile direction, but as long as FF stays a little behind Chrome, Google can say it's not a monopoly. At this point "browser choice" is clearly more of an illusion than reality. They're all slowly shoving everyone down the same funnel.
jaimex2 5y ago
I uninstalled Firefox for this. Don't drag politics into your product.
jbverschoor 5y ago
Let's remove nginx from the net as well! It's Russian you know?
known 5y ago
paulnpace 5y ago
More of the same problem of too many developers feeling they control my computer. Removing something from new installs is rather different than removing something from existing installs. The future of browsers and search engines sure has been a disappointment.
ttarr 5y ago
Any good browser, other than Firefox, has good support for Wayland, and does away with Manifest V3 (or whatever it's called)?
Nasreddin_Hodja 5y ago
I didn't upgrade yet, my Firefox version is 96.0 but Yandex has disappeared from search options. So, Mozilla can control something remotely, hm...

349 points by leosarev 5y ago

can we recognize the difference between civilians (people) and armed participants in conflict (military) in this discussion?

leosarev 5y ago
Why this even relevant? I want to talk about Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user, which was their promise for years. I don't see difference between them doing it for political message, or Google doing it for profit.
- throwmeariver1 5y ago
  Are they? Do you know about their contract with yandex? You are emotional about something that is 100% financial in nature. If it wouldn’t be you can bet that with the Mozilla Foundation being the way they are in the last years would ponder themselves with a blog post or at least a tweet. Money talks or in this case it doesn’t anymore.
  - leosarev 5y ago
    I'm ok with them cancelling contract with Yandex and changing defaults. I'm not ok with them removing this OPTION from browser.
    - throwmeariver1 5y ago
      Do you really believe the options provided are provided without the services paying for it?
      - ogurechny 5y ago
        Back in the days of sane version numbers, localized bookmarks and other stuff relied on local community input. Promotions were solitary and visible, just from their URL parameters. It changed when browser started to be seen as only a muzzle that sucks the meat source into data processing pipeline.
  - Brian_K_White 5y ago
    I doesn't matter why, what and how are damning enough on their own. A legit change in some deal does not explain several aspects of this update. When something doesn't add up, you are supposed to scrutinize it, not just assume it's fine. If it was fine, then why wasn't there an honest explanation? Mozilla did a bad thing. If our speculations about the why are wrong, it doesn't change anything about what is wrong with this update. But even the speculation is fair game in this case because the update lacks all the normal and expected justification and explaination of any other merge request. Feel free to explain the above-board reason they made quite this nature of update in quite this peculiar way. What other updates to your browser should be ok to just take blindly with no explanation? The immagination staggers.
    - throwmeariver1 5y ago
      It’s their browser not yours if you don’t trust them use something else. I keep away from defaults especially search because they are usually paid for and not in good faith. They also dropped yandex two times already and you guessed it right… because of monetary reasons. This is not the smoking gun you want it to be.
      - ogurechny 5y ago
        “Their” browser is useless pile of code when it's not being run on someone's computer. My own computer, for example. Which is not their computer at all. You people seem to be totally brainwashed by corporate bullshit.
        throwmeariver1 5y ago
        ogurechny 5y ago
        That statement was not Firefox-specific. Marketing bullshit about saints above blessing lowly ignorant masses incapable of independent action with fad-of-the-year software (with a not so nice user agreement) should not be tolerated. We can all laugh at people who can't change a search engine, and call them dumb, but when something like Mozilla decides “these users are dumb, they get used to it”, it's a tad different story.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    > Do you know about their contract with yandex? I frankly don't care. I don't use Yandex, but if I did, I'd be really pissed off at this move. Firefox shouldn't be including only search engines that pay a fee; they should be including all search engines that their users might find useful.
    - floatboth 5y ago
      The browser is provided for free. Selling search defaults/inclusions is by far the least intrusive way to make money to fund the development of the browser.
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        Least? Least would be fundraising in Hollywood not selling out default preferences to the highest bidder. Almost all browsers are free. All major and minor ones are free.
        clucas 5y ago
        I suspect that if Firefox got most of its funding from Hollywood, it would be even more susceptible to the politics-du-jour. Why do you think high-profile fundraising would make Firefox more independent?
        ipaddr 5y ago
        More user friendly browser without sponsored search engine defaults. More Mozilla fluff projects don't have to cross my life path.
- MisterSandman 5y ago
  Can't you just, like, manually add Yandex as a search option?
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    You would need to have some skills for that. My grandma wouldn’t be able to do that and this change would disrupt her workflow. Not the end of the world, but this is user hostile change. I’m fine with removal of this engine for new installs, but pulling the rag under existing users is wrong. This anti-Russian madness gone completely out of control. I bet this change alone will drive a significant chunk of Russian Firefox users to Yandex Browser. Unlikely the intention of Firefox developers but here we go.
- bastawhiz 5y ago
  > Mozilla Firefox removing control from the user Did they? You can still add Yandex back manually (and trivially), it's just not included with the stock install.
  - ogurechny 5y ago
    It was not “just not included”, it was removed for everyone, no matter whether they wanted to use it or not. Maybe lizardmen from Mozilla are so detached they consider that all users just suck up and eat what's on the plate today, but some regular people use Yandex search because they have mail there, keep themselves logged in, have configured other services, need something for their work daily, yada yada. So they open the browser and see a tiny panel stating “FUCK YOU”. And it's not tech-savvy users (responding with “fuck you too” and fixing the problem) who get bitten and poached, it's the regular people. There is a reason to think the actual goal of all that radio silence was preventing people from trivially switching to Yandex manually in advance of the change.
    - bastawhiz 5y ago
      OpenSearch is a standard. Visit Yandex in Firefox today, and you'll see Firefox happily offer to add Yandex to your search dropdown. The green plus shows you that it's an option. https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz https://imgur.com/BVlfEIz It's also in the right click menu for the address bar. Why does Mozilla need to include Yandex as a default option?
      - ogurechny 5y ago
        I know that. The whole thing started for me today when I advised a user on some web forum this exact way of bringing it back. Then, out of interest, I dug into the code and the bug tracker, only to find that absolutely nothing was stated about the changes, even though they have been cooking for a month¹. My first real browser was steel-gray Mozilla Suite, back then I opened as many forum topics in tabs as it was possible during a free promotional 5 minute modem connection. The problem is not inclusion by default, the problem is unwarranted unconditional removal, whether it is default or not, and whether it is needed or not. Mozilla has decided the pretend it happened “by itself”, but it was their decision, and they had an option to switch people to non-sponsored Yandex search. ¹) http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal http://web.archive.org/web/*/https://support.mozilla.org/en-...
- tomjen3 5y ago
mantas 5y ago
sure, right after we recognize how a society is related to it's government and military.
smt88 5y ago
The deal is simple: when Russia stops slaughtering Ukrainian civilians, the rest of the world will stop isolating their economy. It's much like the shipping blockades that were used against the European Axis countries in WWII. Russian civilians should consider themselves lucky that the war is only economic for them.
- BuckRogers 5y ago
  - smt88 5y ago
    I don't think it's controversial that Putin deserves to be ousted by a foreign military as much as anyone. He's certainly much more powerful and dangerous than Stalin or Hitler because he can unilaterally end human life on earth at any moment of any day. > Install anyone else that's not insane, say Navalny. Well, we definitely couldn't install anyone. We'd have to administrate an open election. > I read they have 50% of their total combat brigades in Ukraine now. This is a pretty antiquated assessment of military power. Boots on the ground show only that Russia wants to take Ukraine rather than completely destroy it. They can level the entire country with tactical nukes if they want. > Installing a leader that is open to integrating with the west, along with India, we could encircle China and force them into peaceful deescalation. I think it's more likely that we'd make China very dangerous and hostile, and we'd also re-open the world to the possibility of foreign regime change. If we can decapitate Russia, why couldn't someone say, "Hey, this Biden guy stole the election, we should murder him for the good of the American people!" Biden didn't steal the election, but I think you see where I'm going with it.
    - mistrial9 5y ago
      from my understanding of the development of the international oil trade in the 20th century, one of the key advancements by multinational oil in the West was to learn lessons from the British, and do two important things on foreign soil: always back a leader that can hold on with local support; always pay the Nationalist/Military oil interests very well, in addition to making trade rights built-in. Unfortunately, it seems that the "wild west" behavior of the USA in South America, in the wake of the brutal Spanish conquest long ago, made some enemies (that have oil) that are not easy to talk to now.
older 5y ago
No. Not until this changes: https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/ https://www.levada.ru/en/ratings/
asveikau 5y ago
Sorry to go there, but reports are that the Russian Federation is not currently making this distinction in Ukraine right now.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- nelsondev 5y ago
  Two wrongs don’t make a right.
  - asveikau 5y ago
    That's correct. And we can't draw false equivalences either; we should consider the scale of the wrong. For example, I would consider loss of life to be quite a bit worse than loss of Yandex.
    - thway0987 5y ago
      We should indeed. But we shouldn't use that to justify, excuse or dismiss any wrongs done that isn't at the scale of other wrongs.
    - parineum 5y ago
      >For example, I would consider loss of life to be quite a bit worse than loss of Yandex. That'd be a fine choice if it was actually the choice. Instead you lose Yandex and all the people still die.
- ummonk 5y ago
  Even if that were true (it’s not - high collateral damage is not the same as not making a distinction), that doesn’t justify us deciding to also treat Russian civilians as military.
  - mmastrac 5y ago
    Putting pressure on Russian citizens motivates them to protest and take action inside of their country. The Ukrainians didn't have a choice either. I'd much rather have the US heavily-handededly knock down the Russian economy than the alternative of involving itself militarily.
curiousgal 5y ago
[Laughs in Iranian]
JohnWhigham 5y ago
War isn't supposed to be, and never has been, fair.

mananaysiempre 5y ago

Looking at the diff[1], this seems to remove Yandex-, Odnoklassniki-, and Mail.Ru-related bundled bookmarks and extensions (that apparently exist in some build configurations?), if this removes the search option as well it does not seem obvious. (The editorialized submission title is obviously against HN guidelines, but it’s unclear what should be done about it if the original page title is purposefully obscure—and it does seem to be, even given what I said above. Wait for independent reporting to use a more straightforward one?..) [1] https://hg.mozilla.org/integration/autoland/rev/a03a9c72d1db https://hg.mozilla.org/integration/autoland/rev/a03a9c72d1db

leosarev 5y ago
Yes, it's does remove search option. See this article (sorry, in Russian) but s-shot is missing yandex https://vc.ru/services/379414-poiskovik-yandeksa-propal-iz-nastroek-brauzera-mozilla-firefox https://vc.ru/services/379414-poiskovik-yandeksa-propal-iz-n...
- mananaysiempre 5y ago
  Not sure it’s the right patch though. (Does a search engine need an extension to support being used for omnibox search? It might.) In any case, the two ultimate sources of the linked report seem to be: Grigory Bakunov[1] (ex-Yandex) observes Yandex has been removed (but e.g. OZON is still there): https://t.me/addmeto/4782 https://t.me/addmeto/4782 (ru, but basically amounts to a screenshot) Mozilla posts a vague note saying the “default search engine” (NB: omnibox default, not just installation default) may change in Firefox 98, no specific engines are named: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal (en) [1] https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4076123 https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q4076123
  - fotta 5y ago
    > Does a search engine need an extension to support being used for omnibox search? It might. No, IIRC it just needs to have an appropriate OpenSearch xml file to have support for omnibox. I use a third-party engine that isn't bundled in FF and it works fine in omnibox.

thriftwy 5y ago

jehy 5y ago

ogurechny 5y ago

My submission was flagged because of the phrase “golden shower”, huh. Copying it here: https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-release/shortlog/35fe60c82cf055b425d1196a394dcc4cd0d09d44 https://hg.mozilla.org/releases/mozilla-release/shortlog/35f... Basically, Firefox 98.0.1 is a point release only concerned with removing Yandex search for users in Belarus, Kazakhstan, Russia, and Turkey, and switching them all to Google by default. Some old promotions from mail.ru and ok.ru were blocked, too, but these have been dead as a doornail and irrelevant. Note the smoking gun: regular Google links were used in configuration file on 11 March, and then were switched to firefox-tagged (sponsored) ones on 13 March (“part 2”). Why couldn't Mozilla switch Yandex search users to regular Yandex links the same way if they reportedly had “troubles” with their agreement, which supposedly would be the best for the users, and best for Mozilla, apparently? Imagine their wet faces when they beg on their knees for more after successful extension of Google's sponsorship agreement onto 4 big countries, and you'll know why. The changelog for 98.0.1 is currently absent. The changelog for 98 has a vague note about search engines. The relevant code-related bugs have zero explanations. Bug 1748923 is private. The UI that alerts the user about the removed search engine was introduced two weeks ago (and had it text changed to be more vague). There is a specific (and vague) help article about the switch: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/search-engine-removal However, the first signs were noticed about a month ago (in Russian): https://www.opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=56721 https://www.opennet.ru/opennews/art.shtml?num=56721 As usual with Mozilla, there were bugs. Users of previous version of Firefox that automatically update the list of search engines but have no UI to warn them about the changes got it removed silently. I personally don't use Yandex, its results for IT-related English language queries have been quite shitty, in all honesty, for many years, most likely because of the supposed full-on focus on keeping the existing (mostly non-English-speaking) users. However, it's another nice example of treating people like swine by those who have even a tiny bit of power over them. Oh, we're used to that, thank you very much.

ksec 5y ago
>My submission was flagged because of the phrase “golden shower”, In 99.9% of cases HN dont accept editorialised headline. Although I have no idea why this current post is also flagged as well. Firefox removed Yandex is a perfectly valid description. May be it should get rid of the latter part.

dotcoma 5y ago

I wish they removed Google...

oh_sigh 5y ago
Hard to pass up $500M/yr
- dotcoma 5y ago
  Do they really need all that money? They could perhaps get good money, even if considerably less, from DDG.
  - stu2b50 5y ago
    Well, yes. It’s almost all of their annual revenue and Mozilla already had huge layoffs[0], so presumably they’re not exactly on amazing footing financially. Duckduckgo could not provide anything near that much - ddg has 100m in annual revenue and Google is giving 500m to Mozilla. 5x their entire company’s annual revenue. [0] https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/11/21363424/mozilla-layoffs-quarter-staff-250-people-new-revenue-focus https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/11/21363424/mozilla-layoffs-...
    - SturgeonsLaw 5y ago
      If an organisation can be in financial trouble with an annual income of half a billion then it's poorly run. That's ample resources even for something as complex as a browser.
      - queuebert 5y ago
        You could do a lot of science for $500M. I wonder where all that money goes for a mostly complete piece of software.
        blindmute 5y ago

nix0n 5y ago

The release notes for 98.0.1[0] are more clear: > Yandex and Mail.ru have been removed as optional search providers in the drop-down search menu in Firefox. [0]https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/98.0.1/releasenotes/ https://www.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/98.0.1/releasenotes/

ogurechny 5y ago
Note that is the first ever straightforward announcement of the removal accessible to the end user, and it wasn't even available when release happened (about 12 hours ago). It's like giving a hard hat to a man that has already got to the emergency room.
- saghm 5y ago
  That seems a bit overdramatic; it's not like people couldn't still access those search engines at all in Firefox; they just would have to go directly to the website instead of using the dropdown menu. I'd imagine that typing the name of one of them into Google or DuckDuckGo would lead to their site pretty easily
  - ogurechny 5y ago
    It's easy to fix. However, Mozilla gets a boatload of money each year for specific handling of those who don't understand that.
    - TremendousJudge 5y ago
      In theory, they get it for that reason. In practice, the actual reasons is that if Mozilla went under, Google would potentially have an anti-monopoly case on their hands. Or at least they think it's cheaper to pay Mozilla than to maybe find out if it's the case.
      - ogurechny 5y ago
        I believe Google knows better than anyone that market dominance is achieved not by “code quality”, or “features”, or “ease of use”, etc., but by attacking the clueless user with ads and press releases, and bundling the browser with crap like Ultimate Super Image Converter 2011, and paying generously for other sources of traffic. (Sorry, Google engineers doing incredible high-tech stuff, you're at most playing the role of exotic animals in the zoo attracting people who then proceed to sad low-tech data swindling.) It might be less noticeable in the West, where Google hasn't really been challenged, but it was different in Russia. When Yandex had to switch to “defend the user share” mode, it stopped announcing interesting things (it used to please the public with nice stuff here and cool stuff there, and implemented some of that long before Google), and double downed on all that dumb crap (having the browser you fully control, having three ads to install it on a single page, pushing it into everything, and so on).

fithisux 5y ago

Firefox takes sides based on politics not justice. I may need to seek a more "free" alternative

Tagbert 5y ago
This seems to be solidly on the side of justice.
- m0ngr31 5y ago
  Should they have blocked Google and Bing after the invasion of Iraq?
  - kazinator 5y ago
    Bing didn't exist in 2003 (launched in 2009), and I don't think that Firefox ("Firebird" at the time) had a search bar with search engines.
    - Dunedan 5y ago
      That got me curious, so I fired up some old versions of Mozilla Phoenix and checked that out. Turns out already Mozilla Phoenix 0.2 (https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/releases/0.2/ https://ftp.mozilla.org/pub/phoenix/releases/0.2/), released on October 1, 2002, which was the version which originally introduced the search bar, offered the ability to select different search providers.
      - kazinator 5y ago
        Hey, that's interesting. Thanks for looking into it!
    - max599 5y ago
      Bombing civilians in the middle east didn't stop in 2009.
kevingadd 5y ago

fleddr 5y ago

Never before was the open internet challenged this hard, and never before has it failed so hard. Under pressure, every single thing is subject to politics and cancellation: browsers, search engines, search results, social media, cloud infrastructure, payment systems and even money itself. None pass the test of being open or neutral. At this rate, your much hated crypto folks may actually start to have a point. Kind of like a lunatic sometimes being accidentally right. Note the downvotes, for my sin of even mentioning the word "crypto".

notavalleyman 5y ago
Yandex is hardly a politically neutral web service, though
- dionian 5y ago
  We used to be able to say AP, Reuters, NYTimes aren't partisan, and we used to be able to joke about RU news being Pravda-style propaganda. Unfortunately, we can no longer really mock the Russians this way with a straight face, as we have now started to look more like Soviet Russia.
  - dTal 5y ago
    Please. Let me know when people start getting sent to gulags - or simply killed - for publicly rejecting the official (single) party line of the United States. The false equivalence is getting out of control. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_...
    - nelsondev 5y ago
      This just happened. (In Canada, not the US, but similar countries.) Here is a story about police rounding up protestors and sending them to jail. https://news.yahoo.com/police-arrest-dozens-blockading-canadas-233457641.html https://news.yahoo.com/police-arrest-dozens-blockading-canad... > Police chief: “Last night we began to take additional actions towards implementing our operation. We moved officers and equipment into key positions throughout the city and took up 100 checkpoints around the downtown core. We began making arrests of key individuals who were responsible for organizing these unlawful activities. (flash) As of 3pm today we’ve arrested 70 people. They’ve been charged with multiple various offenses including mischief.” Here is a story about accounts of protestors being frozen, preventing them from paying bail to get out of jail. https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-protest-finances.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/02/22/world/americas/canada-pro... > But for one protest organizer who was arrested last week, the effect was more immediate. The organizer, Tamara Lich, said she had been frozen out of all of her accounts and could come up with only 5,000 Canadian dollars for bail.

ilrwbwrkhv 5y ago

Firefox was going off the rails for a while now. Notice, the worse they become the more they will indulge in politics, censorship, emotional blackmail instead of doing their jobs: building a better browser.

raintrees 5y ago
Maybe they just need a better slogan... like... build browser better ;)
sharikous 5y ago
I don't understand this claim. If Mozilla is so awful at developing Firefox, why isn't anyone forking it? Open source is not an empty slogan
- grapeskin 5y ago
  Browsers today are massive projects to maintain. They're basically entire OSes and software suites at this point. The days of a browser that can be maintained by 2 guys and updated once every 16 months and still be decent are long gone. That said, I can recognize that developing and maintaining a browser is a massive undertaking while also acknowledging a project taken a turn for the worse. A lot of software these days has weird priorities (most involving cramming more ads in).
- lmm 5y ago
  Open source is mostly an empty slogan in Firefox's case - it was a code dump from Netscape and it's never really been able to attract outside contributions. If you want a browser that was actually built as open source, Konqueror has been right there for decades, but users don't care about that.
- hyperhopper 5y ago
  Because nobody forks things that are bad?
- cute_boi 5y ago
  I have contributed to both Firefox and chrome, and the amount of legacy code in Firefox makes it so arcane & recondite. They haven't even upgraded jsm, xpcom etc.. And if you apply your logic to chromium. It is being forked and there are many browser like Vivaldi, Brave, Edge etc.. Open Source is definitely not an empty slogan. If there is product A and B, people will choose A if A is better, easier to maintain and popular.

fortnum 5y ago

Have been a strong(!) advocate for Firefox for years. Now it is time to switch. Not sure where to yet, Chrome is not any better, Palemoon is not exactly well supported. Maybe Brave, Vivaldi, or Opera, though they are all Chrome-based as well. Difficult decision and not very happy about it, as I do think we need more than just one browser engine, but I can't support Mozilla any more.

bobmichael 5y ago
Why? Honest question.
- fortnum 5y ago
  Honest answer :) Because I do not condone that move. It will be difficult because I have been using Firefox for years and tried to avoid anything Chrome-based and I am not very happy with Google's Manifest v3 approach, but Mozilla just crossed a red line for me.
  - krisoft 5y ago
    > Because I do not condone that move. Thank you for your answer. Could you elaborate on it? Is it a software freedom question to you? Or perhaps a free speech one?
    - fortnum 5y ago
      - krisoft 5y ago
        No worries, perfectly understandable. Emotions are high now. Have a nice day!
      - alogray 5y ago
        Making a reply to say you won’t make a reply because a reply you make could be downvoted does not really follow. Can folk who disagree with you not just now downvote this reply, both for political disagreements but also wasting everyone’s time?

jbverschoor 5y ago

nickysielicki 5y ago

I’ve been using yandex as my open-source/public/spam-heavy email provider for a handful of years. Ignoring the current conflict, the yandex product is pretty good. Their search is, IMO, second only to Google, at least for technical queries. Edit: probably going to just buy a domain and protonmail as a contingency plan, though. Don’t want to lose access.

Destiner 5y ago
Definitely consider migrating off Yandex. If (when) it will be required by gov to choose either staying in russia or outside of russia, it will choose the former.
- nickysielicki 5y ago
  Literally took me 15 minutes. Now to begin the process of changing the email on a few dozen accounts... me@nslick.com
  - amingilani 5y ago
    I made the mistake of posting an email address on HN. I get a lot of spam on it now. I know it's because of HN because the email address is hackernews@domain. It's like a tsunami of spam and phishing emails.
    - nickysielicki 5y ago
      bring it on, it'll give me the opportunity to tweak my notmuch filtering
ogurechny 5y ago
Sadly, search quality for “the rest of the world” has been neglected for years, and it's a miracle yandex.com still works. Mail is one of the services that is kept up to date, with translations and stuff, and it's nice. As for the global issues, a) Iron curtain for the Internet (i. e. absolutely everything not working properly) would be a sure way to get every commoner, currently soothed with entertainment, on the street. b) This won't last long anyway. I would be more worried about sudden drop of funding and technical issues.

rvz 5y ago

Who pressurized Mozilla this time for this virtue signaling move? Surely they should have removed Google search by now and replaced it with a privacy friendly alternative since Google has been known to be involved with mass surveillance and having contracts and actively working with the three-letter agencies and simply handing over your data to them? Once again, they still can’t move on from Google nor can they get rid of them since they are on life support with their money. Firefox is compromised, even with DuckDuckGo. Might as well switch to Brave Browser and use Brave Search.

moltke 5y ago
Might as well use elinks honestly. I can't remember the last site I went to that really needed a modern browser and wasn't just a replacement for an "app." Firefox is there for my bank account, my brokerage, and Discord. Everything else is either handled by open source tools or elinks.

justsomehnguy 5y ago

MS: *changes the user's search engine* Everyone: *gasps* Mozilla: *changes the user's search engine* Everyone: *claps* IMHO: messing with the user's settings (especially without a proper warning and a cause) should not be condoned.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

thbw 5y ago

Throwaway for obvious reasons. This is hypocrisy of Western democracy. I can't recall when Google was removed after US invaded so many countries. Why do Western companies oppress free speech when it doesn't match their narrative (Julian Assange, now Russian media)? Why not give Russian "propaganda" tell its narratives and let people decide? Are you afraid of their truth/"truth" or are you afraid people will follow them? If you think people are stupid to decide, why do you allow them to even vote for a President of a country? Why US thinks it is ok to expand NATO to the borders of Russia, but didn't think Soviet military in Cuba is ok? Where are all liberals fighting for human rights and free speech? * US invasion - good guys killing bad guys * Russian invasion - bad guys killing good guys * China human right violations - "west" only condemns, because we are too much dependent on cheap products. * US tells Iraq has biological weapons - yeah let's start the war. * Russia tells Ukraine has biological weapons - yeah, propaganda as usual. I have so many questions, but pretty sure no one is going to answer them constructively thanks to cancel culture (and the reason for throw away account) where "liberals" cancel you if they don't agree with you, responses I might get "whataboutism" I am anti-war in all countries, because at the end of the day ordinary people suffer. But why people are demanding protests from Russian people to overthrow Putin (which I doubt they can, unless their military people decide to support) when they weren't able to stop war in Iraq, Afghanistan or any other US invaded country by protesting? Do you think you have moral rights to ask Russian people to do something when you were silent, when you couldn't even save Julian Assange? (by the way I am not Russian) Stop pretending you are right! Give other side chance to speak! As a long time Firefox user, this saddens me!

zmmmmm 5y ago
I think there are a lot of moral compromises, contradictions, and hypocrisy as you outline. However, the alternative to throwing everything non-violent at Russia, is actual military intervention. Essentially, very high risk of real WW3. The Iraq invasion was a huge mistake. Russia's invading Ukraine is a huge mistake. Generally, war is a huge mistake. If there is anything non-violent left to try, I can't blame anybody for trying that. This is one tiny, tiny small thing.
- thbw 5y ago

thbw 5y ago

Let me repeat Firefox vision: https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/VisionStatement#Product_vision_statement https://wiki.mozilla.org/Firefox/VisionStatement#Product_vis... > Discover, experience and connect with apps, websites and people on your own terms, everywhere. Why do you not give people choice on their own terms, everywhere?

yoasif_ 5y ago
People can use whatever search engine they want - how is that not on their own terms?
userbinator 5y ago
Mozilla has been absolutely full of corporate doublespeak for a long time. https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-privacy-philosophy/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/firefox-privacy... "we develop products and advocate for best practices that put users in control of their data and online experiences." https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/celebrating-choice-control-and-independence-on-the-web/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/products/firefox/celebrating-cho... "We put people in control of their online experience" The page description for the Firefox main page used to say "Firefox is created by a global non-profit dedicated to putting individuals in control online", and before that, instead of "individuals" it said "users". I've quipped before that the change was because they really meant "people working at Mozilla" by "individuals". Now it's something vague about "respecting your privacy" (just like what Facebook and Google claim to do too...)
- ttybird2 5y ago
  It is also misleading because afaik Firefox is developed by Mozilla Corporation instead of the foundation. It has been mentioned before that donations to the foundation can't go into developing firefox.
busymom0 5y ago
Slightly related. I changed my default browser just today back to Safari. In Firefox, I would usually click the first two items on the home page which would be photopea or reddit. Today, they put 2 sponsored items for Amazon and Trivago instead and I accidentally clicked the amazon one without realizing because that first item was supposed to be Photopea. That was enough to piss me off. https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png https://i.imgur.com/s7NIfCX.png

perihelions 5y ago

Here's a workaround to add an arbitrary non-blessed search engine as the default (i.e. what the omnibar points to): https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-engine-firefox#w_add-a-search-engine-from-the-search-bar https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/add-or-remove-search-en... Be aware that in Firefox, the "Search Bar" is a distinct widget from the "Address Bar" (omnibar/"awesomebar"). If it's missing or you can't find it, here's the docs for that UX flow: https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customize-firefox-controls-buttons-and-toolbars#w_customize-the-overflow-menu-or-the-toolbar https://support.mozilla.org/en-US/kb/customize-firefox-contr... If you do this, you can (of course) revert your change in about:preferences#search; the new search engine will persist there as an alternate choice. (Tested and confirmed this works with e.g. Yandex in release version 98.0.1. This patch only removed, essentially, Firefox' promoted or sponsored search engines -- not core functionality. (It also erased and reset user preferences, but that's a separate problem)).

yoasif_ 5y ago
The Omnibar is Chromium/Chrome specific. The Firefox address bar is also known as the awesomebar, but has never been known as the omnibar. https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/a-little-something-awesome-about-firefox-3/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/a-little-something-aweso...
- gkop 5y ago
  I've heard omnibar used to describe the more general UX pattern of providing at a focal point a single freetext input that surfaces items across collections. It's a neat pattern because it's both pretty and can be useful. I'll take your word for it it came from Chrome's Omnibar, the timeline in my memory lines up.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- perihelions 5y ago
  TIL, thanks! I've added that word. (In my defense, even the support.mozilla.org docs themselves seem to avoid it; the one I linked only refers to it as "address bar").

MarkLowenstein 5y ago

This is why I haven't let my Firefox update itself for the last 1.5 years. The kids are in charge; you can't trust the product.

qqq111 5y ago

nodesocket 5y ago

Doesn’t anybody else see how the massive fist waving censorship of Russian businesses (which by the way may not endorse the war in Ukraine) is hypocritical to the entire point of the internet and free speech? I’ve been saying it, and I’ll repeat it again. Since when did liberals lose the ideology of free thinking and speech and go on a quest of cancel everything that may not fit squarely and neatly in their world. It wreaks of elitism.

MarkLowenstein 5y ago
Very few people understand why free speech/assembly is valuable anymore. That's why it is going extinct faster than the California condor. The intelligence of the people is the security of the nation. --Daniel Webster
- nodesocket 5y ago
  While I appreciated the comparison (lol’d), turns out that California condors are on the rise and nearly 25x (estimate) as many now then at the lowest point.
  - MarkLowenstein 5y ago
    They were saved only by an emergency captive-breeding program. I'm hoping liberalism doesn't require the same intervention!
AmVess 5y ago
Liberals never embraced free thought and free speech. Now, they are actively censoring anything, anyone, or whatever they don't like. I don't need to be told what to think by a group of people unable to think at all.

mlindner 5y ago

stereoradonc 5y ago

Cancel culture comes to browsers. I never thought I'd type this in my lifetime.

userbinator 5y ago
The frog has been slowly boiling for a while. Remember this? https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplatforming/ https://blog.mozilla.org/en/mozilla/we-need-more-than-deplat...
norvvryo 5y ago
Really? It seems like a foregone conclusion. These censorious tyrants have been chipping away at the pillars of Western civilization for quite a while now. They'll hand-wave criticism by bringing up things like the "slippery slope fallacy." Don't be fooled. Give them an inch and they'll take a mile.
oceanplexian 5y ago
Honestly, I’m grateful that it’s happening out in the open. It’s been illuminating for me who really stands by Liberal Democracy, and the ideals of Free Speech and Freedom of Expression, and who are the posers. If you can’t advocate for the rights of people you disagree with you never really stood for anything in the first place.

bhk 5y ago

Mozilla supports the "current thing"! How can any Firefox user feel safe that they won't be on the wrong side of the next current thing?

sjmm1989 5y ago

It's a shame that Yandex is getting this treatment... It's translation service is by my opinion far better, since I have been able to use it very effectively to converse with anyone around the world in their native tongue. Google... ... I learned the hard way that google is not that great at translating. It seems good, to those who haven't found out why it's bad. P.S. I can basically copy and paste a yandex translation for any language. Doing the same with a google translation has gotten me some very confused messages back. Many times. I guess I should be clearer about that.

shyiko 5y ago
Yandex has been promoting Russian propaganda/censoring Navalny/etc. for years and you complain about inconvenience of using a different translation service?
- sjmm1989 5y ago
  Annndddd our own media conglomerates will shill propaganda and censor people who they disagree with all the time as well. Not saying that this exonerates Russia or Yandex, but if you think we shouldn't be able to use Yandex's translation service because of the other things it has done; then you best get ready to stop using google, facebook, reddit and twitter too; along with all the services attached to them. They all have been just as bad in their own ways. Look. I just said it was a shame that this all means that we won't be able to use a superior auto-translation product. How is that a problem. It just means someone who can do better than Google would be wise to step up, because someone like me is saying there is a market for a better product than what Google is offering. That's the thing about sanctions and such. When you take away some things, you gotta try to replace them somehow with something as good or better. And all I am saying is Google ain't it. Edit: https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/14/dpc-sued-google-rtb-complaint/ https://techcrunch.com/2022/03/14/dpc-sued-google-rtb-compla... Here, look. Now yes, that is about the watchdog being sued over not doing their job correctly; but look at who the culprit is and what they were doing. Google. Being naughty, once again.
  - shyiko 5y ago

okay475008 5y ago

Madmallard 5y ago

This is really cringeworthy

NelsonMinar 5y ago

It's worth remembering any discussion you see about Russian tech topics right now is almost certainly influenced by paid Russian propaganda agents. Here's two news articles that may provide more carefully edited context. https://www.zdnet.com/article/firefox-98-0-1-has-one-big-change-remove-yandex-and-mail-ru-as-custom-offerings/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/firefox-98-0-1-has-one-big-cha... https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-crisis/mozilla-firefox-removes-russia-based-search-engine-yandex-from-settings-amid-ukraine-war-articleshow.html https://www.republicworld.com/world-news/russia-ukraine-cris...

phendrenad2 5y ago
It's time to ban Russian geo IPs from HN.
- lebed2045 5y ago
  Cancel culture at its finest. Next logical step would be add mandatory KYC login and ban based of nationality/race.
TobyTheDog123 5y ago
Do you mean that the discussion here could be paid Russian propaganda, or that this post is? I’m not sure how a link to the Mozilla bug tracker could be taken out of context.
- NelsonMinar 5y ago
  I mean some of the comments here, and in the Bugzilla discussions, and in any other discussion you read online. I am not trying to call out any specific comment here, nor the original post, which is barely about Yandex at all.
oceanplexian 5y ago
It’s also worth remembering that any Russian tech topics are influenced by paid American propaganda agents. What is the point exactly? Argument should be made on their merits not based on who is making them.

totorovirus 5y ago

Is it necessary to boycott private firms that didn't necessarily support the government decision? Or is there any proof that they actually played a role in current ukraine situation?

staticassertion 5y ago
My understanding is that results from Yandex were spreading propaganda from Russia, backing up the false narrative that they hadn't done anything, or that everyone in Ukraine is a nazi, etc. Would love to hear more if anyone has information, I'm possibly misremembering. Also, private companies are an important part of a nation's economy. Restricting them surely impacts that nation, so the idea seems sound?
- tananaev 5y ago
  Yandex News are definitely in line with Russian government propaganda. It's a news aggregator, so it might look like propaganda because all popular news outlets are propaganda. Not sure if they filter anything themselves. But I think it still makes sense to put a pressure on the company anyway.
  - OrvalWintermute 5y ago
    > ...Russian government propaganda. It's a news aggregator, so it might look like propaganda because all popular news outlets are propaganda. Not sure if they filter anything themselves. But I think it still makes sense to put a pressure on the company anyway. As opposed to what Western News Media coverage on the war has turned into, aka, more Propaganda? The middle ground is not promoting our own Propaganda instead, which is what pushing everyone to Western Search Engines (Agitprop search really).
    - dagenix 5y ago
    - staticassertion 5y ago

mmastrac 5y ago

I am consistently disappointed by any thread involving Mozilla on Hacker News. Somehow Mozilla is held to an impossible standard. For the one company out there holding the internet away from a WebKit monoculture, they sure get the short end of the stick by people here.

oefrha 5y ago
Because people want to see them spend their efforts on holding the Internet back from a WebKit monoculture, and donate to that cause, but they keep wasting resources on political activism, pointless bs like time-limited themes, etc. while downsizing their engineering team. Not doing those isn’t “impossible”, in fact they go out of their way to disappoint people with those distractions.
- powersnail 5y ago
  I don't think Firefox actually takes donation anyway. It's specifically put under Mozilla Corporation so it can generate profit.
  - oefrha 5y ago
    Yes, I’m aware of that. People would like to donate specifically to Firefox development though, and some donate to Mozilla Foundation under the impression that it would help. I’ve certainly done that in the past.
    - kome 5y ago
      yes, but donations is not a business model
      - sjtindell 5y ago
        Huh? There are tons of organizations (charities) for whom it is the business model.

tuyguntn 5y ago

voting with my pocket, deleting Firefox

vzaliva 5y ago

I applaud this decision. My friends are killed by russian forces in Ukraine and majority of russian public is kept in dark about this war thanks to support by Yandex to spread the official propaganda.

OrvalWintermute 5y ago
Most in the West are in the dark about the historical Eastern Ukrainian vs Western Ukrainian War, the constant shelling, the human right abuses, and the wanton execution of civilians in East Ukraine. If we are going to permit US govt Agitprop, maybe we should permit historicals, and their Agitprop as well.

mario_kart_snes 5y ago

userbinator 5y ago

I wonder if the decision was due to legal issues, or perhaps pressure from sponsors. After all, they just very recently decided to spam everyone with a very clearly sponsored advert: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665493 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30665493 I bet this is another move that won't gain them any marketshare either. It's sad that "at least we're better than Chrome" seems to have become the only real redeeming praise of Firefox/Mozilla, and I think that's exactly what the management at Mozilla and Google realises --- both browsers are heading in the same hostile direction, but as long as FF stays a little behind Chrome, Google can say it's not a monopoly. At this point "browser choice" is clearly more of an illusion than reality. They're all slowly shoving everyone down the same funnel.

jaimex2 5y ago

I uninstalled Firefox for this. Don't drag politics into your product.

jbverschoor 5y ago

Let's remove nginx from the net as well! It's Russian you know?

known 5y ago

paulnpace 5y ago

More of the same problem of too many developers feeling they control my computer. Removing something from new installs is rather different than removing something from existing installs. The future of browsers and search engines sure has been a disappointment.

ttarr 5y ago

Any good browser, other than Firefox, has good support for Wayland, and does away with Manifest V3 (or whatever it's called)?

Nasreddin_Hodja 5y ago

I didn't upgrade yet, my Firefox version is 96.0 but Yandex has disappeared from search options. So, Mozilla can control something remotely, hm...