16 ms·

My transition from Windows to Linux in an anti-customer age

85 points by trinsic2 5y ago

trinsic2 5y ago
Does anyone have problems with configuring printing to do what you want? I have been having problems getting duplex printing to stick and work correctly with CUPS and my Epson WF-3540
trinsic2 5y ago
Here I am, back in Windows. I’m realizing that my journey to a Freedom-Of-Choice Desktop environment is riddled with traps from my past. My familiarity with the apps and processes of Windows haunts my every move. It’s challenging to find replacements and workarounds for what I used to be able to do… But then my determination kicked in. If I really think about it, would it be such a loss to switch to a Linux alternative? I rebooted back into Linux and got to work. Any hope for a Windows-centric guy to transcend his limitations and biases? Only time will tell…
- nightski 5y ago
  I like Linux and have used both professionally but too much of my income is dependent on Windows. That and it's just a great day to day environment. I'm just sticking with 10 for the foreseeable future and hope Microsoft turns direction. But I'm not holding my breath.
- geek_at 5y ago
  Same here. I'm a Linux advocate (even named my son after the creator) and I definitely manage more Linux than Windows machines but after trying (forcing) Linux on my main workstation I gave up. I need nvidia drivers (for ML and sysadmin stuff) and had so many random problems with multiple distros like sound randomly wasn't working or some USB ports were not detecting anything. WSL has changed the game and now I have the stable and driver supported desktop environment with all the tools I love from my linux servers.
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    >I need nvidia drivers (for ML and sysadmin stuff) Even with WSL I don't see how Windows is better than Linux for nvidia ML stuff and I use Windows+WSL, too. Care to explain?
- Fatnino 5y ago
  I switched about the time windows made a major change too. Maybe it was win10? I don't remember. The point is when I hop on a windows machine now it feels just foreign enough that I go back to Ubuntu.
- falcolas 5y ago
  I tried running on Linux (Ubuntu) and using Reaper, so I don't have to use Windows with it's BS. Getting the audio stack running was a nightmare, and it always just sounded bad. Something was wrong with the drivers that caused a ton of latency and weird compression. It appeared to be something to do with everyone's favorite default audio system: Pulseaudio (have a look sometime at how many troubleshooting steps there are for the simple "I'm not getting audio out of Ubuntu", it's silly) I spent a few days trying to figure out the proper magical incantation to make ALSA work with my setup (Scarlet 2i2, pretty common), with no success. No matter how many semi-sketchy and unofficial websites I went through. Put it on Windows, works out of the box, sounds great. Went back to recording audio instead of doing IT.
  - Agingcoder 5y ago
    Sound is the primary reason why I eventually left the Linux desktop - it broke on a regular basis, and randomly, because of pulseaudio. It worked in some apps, and not in others. In the end, I needed to get some work done, and not constantly fix my workstation, so I went down the OSX route I never looked back (no need to tinker at all, and I kind of understand the UI, while I find Windows to be very confusing, and to require tinkering ). I started using Linux in 1996, used a Linux desktop as my main box between 2001 and 2011, but, much to my chagrin, it just never reached any kind of 'it just works' level. Sure, there were good parts ( interesting UI ideas ), but the moment you started plugging/doing funky things into your computer ( printers, bluetooth, power outlets, wifi, speakers, fonts, multiple screens, 3d cards, etc you name it ), things started not working as expected. Note I still use a Linux workstation at the office. It still doesn't work well for anything which is not terminal oriented, it still loses its graphics settings on a regular basis, I still run into graphics driver issues, but I have a windows box next to it to handle everything else. The one thing I really miss on windows/OSX is i3, which completely changed my view of windowed environments ( I gave up on Gnome/KDE eons ago ).
FpUser 5y ago
I use both: Linux and Windows. Replacing Windows is out of the question as I have Windows based product and I also use Windows to develop software for Linux as well. All my Windows machines are Win 10 except one with Win 11 which I turn on every once in a while strictly to see if my product works. I might've done something with the settings and did all installations while disconnected from the Internet. Other then that I am curious what is so different in all my Windows setups? I do not have any ads and never mind Windows rebooting when editing documents mine never reboots on its own. When it is ready for update it just displays some icon in the tray. If I click it it will ask me to perform updates (which I normally do). Otherwise it just stays the way it is and does not reboot on its own. Windows 11 - it introduced enough flow disrupting changes so for now my attitude is fuck it. Will see what happens in the future.
SBArbeit 5y ago
It's good to know that this year is the year of the Linux Desktop. Just like last year. And the year before that. And the year before...
- thetopher 5y ago
  As an old Slashdot reader, I came looking for a comment like this. Thanks for not disappointing.
  - bombcar 5y ago
    NetCraft confirms, *BSD is still dead. The year of the Linux Desktop was Android.
- Ourgon 5y ago
  1996 was the year for Linux on the desktop. FVWM, then Windomaker, then Sawmill/Sawfish, now Xmonad. Never looked back. From working at a publisher to doing development work at several companies to freelancing as hacker for hire to giving my 80+ mother a safe desktop to do administration and finances on while I live some 1300 km to the north of her, Linux rules the roost. Why? Because it works. No nasty surprises, no forced upgrades, no nonsense.
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    I've come to this conclusion too. 1996 was the year of the Linux desktop. But... there's more to the story. In 1996 Linux was a clone of Unix, because there were still Unixes out there (HP-UX, SCO, etc.) that were charging $xx,000/seat. Everything good about Linux was taken from Unix. This put Unix vendors out of business, which is unfortunate because after that, Linux had nothing left to copy from. There were no new ideas from industry. Instead, it became design-by-committee and first-come-first-serve. That's why it's taken so long for X11 to be replaced by Wayland. Many internet flame wars had to happen before Wayland was uncontroversial enough to be included.
    - Ourgon 5y ago
Gareth321 5y ago
Fair comments but as someone who has tried many times to adopt Linux, I can honestly state that nothing in Windows comes close to the user-hostile UX approach in Linux. For example, Radarr is an extremely popular tool for managing movies. It connects to usenet and torrent clients, as well as indexers and movie databases. It makes maintaining a home movie collection seamless. Radarr is not in major package managers, and requires the CLI for install (https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux). In Windows, I double click an .exe. In Linux I have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process, full of opportunities to misconfigure the install. Radarr isn't a super hardcore 1337 program. It's a very common application aimed at everyone who runs Plex. Until a distro has a .exe equivalent for all applications like this, it's just not going to be a competitor to Windows, for users who need more than just a web browser, and those who are not IT administrators. Bottom line: make it so users never ever, for any reason ever, need to use the CLI. Until then, most of us will be sticking with Windows.
- iknowstuff 5y ago
  This is true, although the Windows model of .exe installers , which require admin permissions, isn't even the one to follow. The macOS, and especially the App Store model is far more user friendly. The non-esoteric distros and GNOME[1] recognize it and ship with a software manager akin to an app store. Those install snaps or flatpaks with one click. That's how you'd install Steam and all of its dependencies like Proton. The problem is that some software authors, like Radarr's, don't believe in the model. https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/41.0/figures/software.png https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/41.0/figures/softw...
  - smoldesu 5y ago
    > The problem is that some software authors, like Radarr's, don't believe in the model. And I don't really blame them. People love to pimp Flatpak and Snap, but nobody ever likes to talk about the issues that portals cause, the horrible rendering issues it lugs along, the lack of molecularity constantly breaking things on xorg/Wayland, the DBUS issues, the extremely esoteric configuration options, the auto-updating (!!!) and so on and so forth. Apple makes this work because they have hundreds of billions of dollars they can divert to R&D. Linux gets the short end of the stick because it's a game of chicken-and-egg: none of the developers want to work on Flatpak because none of the packagers want to provide packages for it because Flatpak has hundreds of outstanding bugs and an entire community of people like me who remember being promised bigger and better things on Linux, only to have them fall through the ground not even halfway into development. Simplicity is key. Flatpak, Snap, and all of it's ilk are not simple, which is why it's no surprise that their development is lethargic and adoption is, kindly put, sluggish.
farseer 5y ago
Adobe CC, Microsoft Office and Visual Studios prevent an all out shift to linux for the majority. LibreOffice, VSCode, Gimp/Inkscape and everything JetBrains has to offer just doesn't make the cut yet. But we are getting close by each passing year.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  > Adobe CC, Microsoft Office and Visual Studios prevent an all out shift to linux for the majority How do you figure? Most people don't do any real photo editing or real asset creation. Microsoft Office isn't required for anything except Excel and that's fairly specific to a certain type of office worker. Visual Studio has many replacements, especially if you aren't using an MS stack top to bottom. Heck, when I was in business school (majored in Finance) the profs told us to use Google Docs over MS Office for basically everything except our Excel-specific assignments... Like we'd hand in assignments simply by sharing a Google Doc. So much easier than dealing with Word compatibility nonsense.
  - Jensson 5y ago
    A typical business org uses microsoft office for documents, and they employ programmers writing plugins to their microsoft office products using visual studio which also integrates into their internal .NET business services. I doubt migration would be easy, as everything ties into each other.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      Yes, I know. In my last corporate gig I was given a laptop with a bunch of MS crap on it. It was far, far worse than my normal setup (Ubuntu + OSS stuff + Google Docs). MS Teams specifically would consume so much memory that eventually other programs wouldn't open without a reboot (the laptop was kinda shit too). I know what you describe is a thing. That doesn't make it a good thing. Edit - should add, Office 365 file synching is also absolute shit. Drove me insane.
      - 5y ago
bitwize 5y ago
1970s: Secretaries learn to use Emacs for documents, and to literally write Emacs Lisp to customize it to their needs 2020s: Professional software developers on Hackernews: "Desktop Linux doesn't have software that works exactly like the software I like, so it's a complete nonstarter. I'd rather keep bending over for Microsoft than deal with anything different or with any sort of learning required."
- poisonborz 5y ago
  That's a wildly improper comparison, those secretaries were using that single text editor, strictly during their worktime. A (power)user today - besides learning the quirks of a whole operating system - possibly needs to adopt their workplace workflow, personal apps, media consumption, all the connected hardware like inputs, display, printer, smartphone connection, networking...
- smoldesu 5y ago
  "Sorry... I'd love to make the switch but I can't do it until they get Apple Mail up and running."
- newaccount2021 5y ago
- howeyc 5y ago
  Correct. If the utility on Linux is not the exact same as Windows (or doesn't even exist, the horror!), then modifying your behavior or expectations is insane and is considered "ricing" and a complete waste of your time.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  I laughed. Emacs is well-defined and well-designed. That doesn't apply to the rest of the software people have made for Linux in the last 50 years.
michaelcampbell 5y ago
> In 2015 when Windows 10 rebooted my machine to automatically install an update, closing down an unsaved document I was in the middle of working on, Do I have some magic aura that causes Microsoft to give me at least a 12 hour warning about updates? Because I honestly can't remember a time this sort of thing (instant update, no warning) has ever happened to me with Windows. I love Linux and do as much as I can for my job with it, or at least as close to POSIXy *ix as I can, but I hear these Windows stories and they just aren't in my reality. Note: I don't have an overbearing company that pushes a slew of nanny-spy-ware on to my work machine - I have a friend who does, and I BELIEVE his tales of woe because I believe him.
- marcodiego 5y ago
  12 hours... Nice, people will just forget before 2 minutes.
- Jensson 5y ago
  Not all programs bubbles up those notifications when you are in full screen, and since default behavior is to shut down the computer after x minutes of the notification appearing it will look like the computer restarts out of nowhere. Windows could have checked "if the user is actively using the computer do not restart", but no the computer just restarts in the middle of a gaming sessions or whatever.
  - CogitoCogito 5y ago
    > Windows could have checked "if the user is actively using the computer do not restart", but no the computer just restarts in the middle of a gaming sessions or whatever. Even better would be to ask (and respect a user’s decision if they say “no”).
  - michaelcampbell 5y ago
    Like this? https://i.imgur.com/j3TZBEE.png https://i.imgur.com/j3TZBEE.png
    - 5y ago
yoyohello13 5y ago
I’ve been using Linux exclusively at home for about 3 years (Fedora). I game, program and do office work. Maybe I’ve just gotten used to it, but I really don’t run into problems these days. I still need to live in windows for work and coming from my home environment I find it pretty painful to work in honestly.
Syonyk 5y ago
I've been on a similar journey and have largely ended up in the same sort of place - "Well, everything else has gone to hell in a handbasket, so I suppose I'll use the only things left I don't actively object to." And that list is getting smaller. You could mostly call me a "Unix Greybeard" at this point - I grew up with Windows, learned the joys of Unix on IRIX in the early 2000s, and never really went back. Linux is for servers and dev work desktops, but for about 18 years I'd been using OS X as a daily driver desktop. It really does "just work" for an awful lot of values of work, and it interfaces very nicely with Linux systems and has done so for a long while. With Microsoft's WSL and actually shipping a bloody SSH client now, Windows interfaces better, but it's a bit too little, too late. I never really objected to Windows, just never had much of a use case for it - but, despite that, I typically had a Windows desktop of some variety or another laying around for various purposes, and a Windows VM or three for [whatever] - currently I've got a Win10 VM that mostly runs UPS WorldShip (I used to ship a lot of hazmat, and I actually like the program for my shipping needs). Windows 10 has gotten "progressively more annoying" about online accounts. You used to be able to just say "No, thank you, I want a local account only." Then the options got more hidden, and then the option disappeared unless you literally don't have a network connection when you're installing it, and if you have a local account it starts nagging you more and more to "sign in with Microsoft!" Yes, you can turn it off, but the default is to badger the user. I don't want an online account for my local operating systems, thank you very much. Never have, never will. Windows 11, though, has turned into a "Nope, never..." option for me. Maybe in a VM if I really need to. The two major things that really upset me are the transition to a "You can't have a local account only on Win11 Home," and the bug in the beta in which a bad advertising JSON blob (from Microsoft!) absolutely hosed Explorer, rendering the OS unusable. There is no computing world I'm OK with in which basic OS operation and functionality should be rendered unusable by bad data from the internet, and that tells me where the priorities for Microsoft are: Tightly integrated advertising. With the "We must know your email address to use our OS," there's almost certainly some variety of behavioral analysis going on that they can use to profit on the backend from the "free" OS. You're the source of raw materials, and all... so Windows 11 is out. Apple was going well, and I really appreciated their privacy stance... and then they seem to have badly miscalculated and blown most of that trust, in my book, with the on-device, anti-user CSAM scanning that was a beautiful, ivory tower, academic exercise in novel crypto, that seems to have fallen apart literally as soon as people got their hands on the concept to play with. The photo hashing they're using couldn't withstand any basic adversarial attacks (either in terms of mutating images to avoid being detected, or in terms of deliberate image collisions), and they seem to have been caught dazed and confused in how their responses to concerns about it were almost "Oh, yeah, uh... yeah, we're definitely defending against that concern with this thing we just thought of at 3AM." The later documents and FAQs read like the output of someone operating on no sleep for a couple weeks, and some of their internal email quotes regarding the "screeching minority" didn't exactly go over very well either. Yes, I know they've "delayed" it, but they've not said "We're sorry, that was a terrible idea, and we're not going to do that or anything like it" either, so... Apple's out. Sad, really, the M1 Mac Mini I bought when it was announced is, by far, the best computer I've used across a huge variety of metrics, and the M1 Mac Pros are quite literally exactly what I want in a laptop. Oh well. I'll find alternatives. If I'm going to continue using modern computing (which, unfortunately, isn't quite as optional as I'd really prefer in the modern world), that leaves me staring down the Linux path, and so I've gone that way. Linux on the desktop isn't perfect, but neither is it nearly as painful as it used to be. It does most of the stuff I care about - and my attitude has changed around to, "If I can't do it on Linux, then I suppose it's not something I should particularly care about doing." I'm at a point in my life where that's entirely viable for me, so it's the route I've gone. ... and then for added pain, because I'm apparently allergic to working computers at this point, I've gotten pretty well upset with Intel over the last few years with "Yet Another Microarchitectural Vulnerability" (and then the endless variations on a theme that they didn't patch against when they fixed the first set - come on, if the academics understand your processors better than the people in charge of fixing them, that's a problem too). AMD is an option, but as ARM has been coming up the ladder quickly in performance, I've set out to try and use as much ARM as I can. So, my primary laptop, for when I use it, is a PineBook Pro, I've got an ODroid N2+ and RasPi4 running as office desktops (and am uncomfortably excited about the upcoming Rock5 with NVMe and 16GB RAM), etc. I still have some x86 in my life for certain things, but I'm trying very hard to reduce that over time. While I'm at it, I've gone back to a flip phone, and I don't even bother bringing that with me half the time I go out anymore. I won't say I always like the corners I've painted myself into, but I'm at least comfortable with where I am. I'm not having to say, "This thing Company X is doing is horrible... but, I mean, what am I gonna do?" and then use Company X's software/hardware. I'm able to do most of the things I want to do, even if they're a bit more roundabout than they used to be, and I'm OK with that. But, as I get older, even working in the low weeds of tech, I do look forward to, at some point, being able to just put down a computer for the last time. The future they promised and the future we got have diverged so badly, and just continue to diverge.
TedShiller 5y ago
Gave up on Microsoft in the 90s. Never looked back.
- trulyme 5y ago
  Me too. Had to go back to Windows at $JOB recently and find the experience... unpleasant, to put it mildly. I guess once you get used to a certain way it's difficult to change it. Hoping to get rid of Windows again soon. Can't imagine using W11, from what I've seen.
- vanous 5y ago
  Same story here, happy Linux user since the 90s... at home on family computers and at job. It's like choosing Netflix vs HBO Go - takes a few days to find your favorites, once you get it you are all set and don't worry anymore about the competition.
- socceroos 5y ago
  Same situation. I've used Windows over the years for playing some games with friends, but even that had become something that I can do entirely in Linux too. Call me a fool, but I'm also loving Gnome 40+ and GTK 4.6+, especially with libadwaita.
- II2II 5y ago
  I also left Windows in the mid-1990's. I have tried looking back from time to time, when it felt like it would make life at work easier. The thing is, it never does. That doesn't really say anything about Windows, since it has improved a lot over the years and my reasons for leaving it are no longer valid. It says more about what I am used to, how I expect to get things done, what I am willing to put up with, and what I am not willing to put up with.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  I've been trying since the 90s. I became a Linux expert, but I've still failed to switch to Linux. The reasons are probably: (A) The mythos of Microsoft collecting all of our information and storing it until the end of time seems incredibly unrealistic to me (B) I don't like friction, Linux is full of unnecessary friction to get anything done (C) Lack of commercial programs, and a user base that is actively hostile to the idea of commercial software (FOSS is better, don't you know?) and/or hostile to changes that would make commercial software more viable on Linux (D) Difficulty in actually fixing things, which I have tried to do many times (the Linux ecosystem is built from some truly awful codebases) (E) constant glitches and bugs, which I don't have time to track down and fix
shawnb576 5y ago
Every time I try this I go thru standard stages: 1. Ugh I want to run docker natively, Ubuntu looks good, I’ll do that 2. Install latest Ubuntu. It’s great! Love the shell. Hardware works. I can run Windows in Virtual Box for odd apps. 3. Why is my battery life so bad? Why won’t Bluetooth stay connected? 4. I am full Linux. I am living the creed! 5. I am so tired of constantly fixing something. Why is Spotify rendering weird. Why doesn’t mouse scroll work in Firefox. 6. I don’t have time for this. Back to Windows. I think now that WSL has matured, it’s just hard to justify going back. Everything works and I get real Linux.
- sschueller 5y ago
  I use manjaro a version of arch and I will never go back. Yes, sometimes things to don't but windows has issues as well. I had it with this anti user direction we are going because you know "security reasons". Microsoft decides what is malware, they decide what we are allowed to install, they track everything you do and if you want to turn if off forget it. Everytime you update they try to force you to make a MS account, I don't need this crap in my life. I'd rather spend an hour fixing something and knowing it's all under my control and my interests not some corporation's profit interests.
  - phendrenad2 5y ago
    I tried to use Linux but it was a death by a thousand paper cuts of bugs and glitches. I've never experienced Windows stopping me from running a program, maybe you're actually trying to run malware? It's a good idea to install an antivirus or at least windows defender so you can avoid these.
    - sschueller 5y ago
      Try Virtualbox in combination with docker and WSL2, that was a disaster in Windows.
      - phendrenad2 5y ago
        How so?
reset-password 5y ago
For anyone else in the "thinking about it" to "preparing for it" stage of the switch, I've been getting myself ready by switching to cross-platform software one piece at a time while still daily driving a Windows machine. In past failed attempts to switch it just was too jarring for everything to be different all at once. But now that I've already replaced all the Windows exclusive software in my life, I expect that next time I try full-timing on Linux again it will feel more like visiting the next town over than it will visiting a foreign country.
qot 5y ago
Linux isn't even close for normal people's desktop use. Just recently I tried and failed to simply set up a screensaver that turns my screen black (not off!) to save my display from burn-in. Eventually I just gave up. You can't do this with stock GNOME. I also tried xscreensaver (but the Debian-specific instructions in the man page are out of date) and xfce4-screensaver, both didn't work. I've been using Debian GNU/Linux since Feb 2016 and consider myself adept but still couldn't figure this very simple task out.
- nxbp 5y ago
  What? It really couldn't be simpler: You open settings -> screensaver, choose blank after N minutes and close the settings window. Works.
  - qot 5y ago
    I have no screensaver options under settings: https://i.imgur.com/WM3xIWL.png https://i.imgur.com/WM3xIWL.png Note, I'm using Debian Sid. Gnome 3.36.2 on Wayland.
    - nano9 5y ago
      Try looking under Power.
      - qot 5y ago
        Nope, this is quite the opposite of black: https://i.imgur.com/L0O0fNn.png https://i.imgur.com/L0O0fNn.png It also turns my display off, which is not what I want: https://i.imgur.com/z5BIqGj.png https://i.imgur.com/z5BIqGj.png Seems like it's not as simple as @nxbp claims.
- prmoustache 5y ago
  Even my grandmother who used her first computer late in her seventies knew how to do that on linux.
amanzi 5y ago
I just blew away my last Windows installation and completed the move to Pop!_OS. I keep a VM running Windows 10 Pro around so I can access Office desktop apps and some Windows-specific software I need, but I spend most of my time in Linux now and have love it.
pickledcods 5y ago
I have a 4k monitor and at first bumped my head into many walls because of the excruciating bad or missing font size/selection support. Tried literally all the desktops and file managers. Ended with Mate/Xfe, both with amazing and consistent font support. Redshift for time dependent colour temperature is also worth mentioning.
- Paianni 5y ago
  Screen size?
foxes 5y ago
I find it totally incomprehensible how anyone could possibly still use Windows seriously as a developer/hacker/programmer/interested in computing. Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything. Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent. Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric. Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11, inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??), lack of coherent design. I personally do not trust Microsoft at all. All these pro Windows comments with minor substantiation seem bizarre.
- jonathantf2 5y ago
  > with no way to automate anything Most things in Windows can be automated with PowerShell, application installs are usually just a silent install switch away.
- __del__ 5y ago
  i was similarly perplexed but upon reflection i may understand it. windows kept me at the level of "power user," and i suspect it lulls many into that complacency. sure i wrote a few windows programs, debugged a few i hadn't written, and i ran some pretty niche tools, but i wasn't truly hacking on my system. most of it was off limits anyway, but more importantly i had stopped learning because i was a power user with niche tools and that felt like plenty. with linux i can patch software to satisfy whims and have it cooperating with the package management ecosystem in minutes. suppose i want to do something simple, like suppress an annoying error message i don't care about. i expect that downloading the source code, grepping for the error, removing it, compiling, packaging, and installing will take me something like 3 minutes of effort. seriously. these power users don't know what they're missing.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  > I find it totally incomprehensible Happy to help > Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything These three points are wrong, but I understand your confusion. You don't blindly trust an exe, you download it via https from the official website. The installs are "reproducible" to a point that 99% of users care about. You can automate installations for popular software quite easily. > Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent. "Conflation" is the wrong word there. But regardless, ironically you're conflating "not knowing" new software and complaining about bugs in new software. You seem to be saying that no one should do either, simply because both are a case of "not knowing". It's very popular to dismiss bugs in Linux software as someone "not knowing" how to use it, but it's lazy thinking. > Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric. That's wrong. On what basis do you say that all hardware issues on Linux are the result of the manufacturer doing "something esoteric"? In reality, having looked into it myself, it's very possible to hold Linux partly at fault for ALL hardware issues. Why? Because you may not know this but on Linux, unlike Windows, all drivers effectively must be approved and included in the kernel source code by L. Torvalds himself. That sets an incredibly high bar for driver availability, and causes Linux to lag behind other OSs in terms of driver support. Bet you also didn't know that hardware manufacturers need to retest their driver after every kernel update, because the kernel team often breaks things, and if the manufacturer doesn't keep on top of their driver code, it'll fall into disrepair. (Meanwhile on Windows your Windows vista drivers from 2007 will work in Windows 11(!) > Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11 Most people do not experience features in Windows 10/11 that they consider harmful. You may experience them as harmful. You may see others experiencing them and consider them harmful. But most people who experience them do not find them harmful. Got it? > inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??) Most people don't care about that, believe it or not (most people are smart enough to not fall off their chair and explode when they encounter a strangely-styled window border) > I personally do not trust Microsoft at all. Why do I get the feeing most posts like this could be summarized thusly...
spicymaki 5y ago
Am I the only one that uses Linux, Windows, and MacOS daily? Why settle for just one OS environment? What a time to be alive. I fail to see the value in all of these culture wars. It never ends. All of these systems work great for me. Thanks to all of hard work from all of the engineering teams and volunteers that put these systems together.
- V_Terranova_Jr 5y ago
  They're not merely culture wars, they're also value wars. Both Windows and MacOS are headed toward continuous behind-your-back communication with their respective motherships. In the case of Windows, they have the audacity to shamelessly advertise on your personal computer.
  - spicymaki 5y ago
    There are plenty of opensource programs with telemetry built in. Many company build there products using opensource components and sell your information in the backend. This is not an opensource vs. closed source argument. This is a data rights/privacy argument and until governments and citizens take the matter seriously we will get nowhere.
    - V_Terranova_Jr 5y ago
      I totally agree that we are well past the point where data security and privacy need strong regulation or legislation. At least Europe has GDPR. However, I hard disagree with drawing a false equivalence between the open source community, particularly in the operating system space (which this article is about), and the closed-source commercial vendors. Also disagree that adopting open source "gets us nowhere" in this battle. Sure, there is some telemetry in the open source world, as we see in the Firefox discussion. We also see reactions such as LibreWolf, or community outrage at the likes of GitLab when this happens. It's just not part of the open source community's ethos to look the other way at hidden telemetry. In the open source realm it is a) it is the exception rather than the rule, and b) the fact they are doing it is clearly knowable and neuterable[1]. That's a far cry from Apple validating every executable you run, or Microsoft not even allowing you to opt-out of telemetry, and god knows what other vendors of core closed source software do now. I'm not an open source zealot, but the race to the bottom over the past 10 years just hardens my resolve to own my devices and not the other way around. [1] Again, talking about client-side software or servers you run/control. You will always have to figure out how much you trust SaaS providers regardless of what software is part of their offering.
V_Terranova_Jr 5y ago
I've no doubt that significant proprietary software and games tie people to Windows. However, if a) those are not core to your desktop OS use, b) you care about privacy and your OS not doing a lot of external communication behind your back, and c) you're a member of this community, it's hard to understand why you wouldn't take something like Linux seriously as a daily driver. Step one is admitting that all desktop operating systems suck - none of them are actually engineered, they've just been crafted over decades. Second is realizing that unless you don't give a damn about what is going behind your back on your own system, you will have to embrace some form of suck. Maybe the Windows and MacOS fans don't mind having to do things like trick Windows into not sending "telemetry" or using Little Snitch to block whatever daemons Apple wants communicating to their servers for every executable you run. As much as I swear JWZ was right about the CADT development model, more often than not, if I learn the incantations I can deterministically make Linux do what I need it to do. And I'm no software development badass like many here. I hate that I have to know so much about something so clearly not well-engineered, but am glad that it's deterministic and there's no vendor hellbent on trying to keep me from configuring my system in the way I see fit. In the worst case if I can't figure it out from documentation, forums, whatever, I can look at source code. I'm not going to tell you "Linux is awesome!", but I will say that I think it's the least bad option. Also, of the common choices out there, I find today's KDE to be quite usable and pleasant.
jarbus 5y ago
A lot of people in this thread seem to suffer with bugs on Linux. In my experience, bugs with systems like WiFi and Bluetooth have been related to the specific hardware I’m using. For my current laptop, I made sure it could run arch with no problems before buying, and I’ve had no issues with WiFi or Bluetooth. That being said, battery life sucks and thunderbolt 3 docks work unreliably.
- draw_down 5y ago
kkfx 5y ago
My own personal history: - first machine a dismissed SGI O₂ so Irix/CDE I do not remember witch version - after few year my first laptop with Windows XP (newly released): I was shocked how limited and bad it is. - quickly turn to GNU/Linux following some family friend / teachers suggestion, unsatisfied, they were still crap compared to Irix to my eyes - turn to FreeBSD, hw issues but not much (it was the time from linux 2.4-2.6 passage) I start to breathe a bit - OpenSolaris then another breathe - Back to FreeBSD after it's death but too many hw issues, so back again to GNU/Linux, now still on it with NixOS That short history to state a thing: hw got more and more powerful but also crappy and software keep turning to crap. I think that anti-customer age start right after Xerox/LispM era, even SGI was bad respect of them, they have tried "the unix way" and quickly touch it's limits badly correcting them introducing anti-unix patterns in Unix with GUIs. In that context my desktop environment is Emacs (EXWM) and while buggy and limited in bootloader OS terms I do not really know how people can keep using "modern GUI", not only Windows since their absurd limits and limitations. The main point is that a desktop must be a flexible tool for the human user, not an endpoint, not a dumb terminal, not a set of know pre-determined by someone else. The rest is noise.
TheRealDunkirk 5y ago
I ran Linux on the desktop for 19 years before moving to Macs. I never had any hardware issues, because I always bought kit that was well-supported under Linux, and stayed away from, say, "winmodems" and wifi chipsets with Windows-only binary blobs. I think so many of the problems people have with trying to move to Linux is that they get a wild hair one day, and then just try to switch, using the Microsoft-subsidized hardware they already have. My advice? Switch with some fresh hardware. Buy a GOOD machine that is known to have good support. Buy GOOD peripherals. With both, make sure you're buying stuff that actually works on its own, and doesn't require software magic in Windows. You're going to have to research a little, and probably spend a little more than you normally would, but Microsoft has made this situation the way it is. If you really want to escape their gravity well, you're probably going to have to do more than just switch your OS.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  I also tried to stay away from "winmodems", but even in 2022 I have hardware issues on Linux, on a boring business-class HP desktop(!), the very thing people say never has any issues under Linux... lol... I tracked it down to the Intel driver for ACPI or something breaking sleep/wakeup. It's a kernel issue so I guess I'll just have to wait 5 years for someone to fix it.
  - TheRealDunkirk 5y ago
    To be fair, I would never consider "boring, business-class" desktops to be a viable Linux machine. Machines designed for bulk sales to boring businesses are exactly the bargain-basement, Windows-subsidized pieces of kit I was saying should be avoided, regardless of "people say never has any issues."

85 points by trinsic2 5y ago

Does anyone have problems with configuring printing to do what you want? I have been having problems getting duplex printing to stick and work correctly with CUPS and my Epson WF-3540

trinsic2 5y ago

Here I am, back in Windows. I’m realizing that my journey to a Freedom-Of-Choice Desktop environment is riddled with traps from my past. My familiarity with the apps and processes of Windows haunts my every move. It’s challenging to find replacements and workarounds for what I used to be able to do… But then my determination kicked in. If I really think about it, would it be such a loss to switch to a Linux alternative? I rebooted back into Linux and got to work. Any hope for a Windows-centric guy to transcend his limitations and biases? Only time will tell…

nightski 5y ago
I like Linux and have used both professionally but too much of my income is dependent on Windows. That and it's just a great day to day environment. I'm just sticking with 10 for the foreseeable future and hope Microsoft turns direction. But I'm not holding my breath.
geek_at 5y ago
Same here. I'm a Linux advocate (even named my son after the creator) and I definitely manage more Linux than Windows machines but after trying (forcing) Linux on my main workstation I gave up. I need nvidia drivers (for ML and sysadmin stuff) and had so many random problems with multiple distros like sound randomly wasn't working or some USB ports were not detecting anything. WSL has changed the game and now I have the stable and driver supported desktop environment with all the tools I love from my linux servers.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  >I need nvidia drivers (for ML and sysadmin stuff) Even with WSL I don't see how Windows is better than Linux for nvidia ML stuff and I use Windows+WSL, too. Care to explain?
Fatnino 5y ago
I switched about the time windows made a major change too. Maybe it was win10? I don't remember. The point is when I hop on a windows machine now it feels just foreign enough that I go back to Ubuntu.
falcolas 5y ago
I tried running on Linux (Ubuntu) and using Reaper, so I don't have to use Windows with it's BS. Getting the audio stack running was a nightmare, and it always just sounded bad. Something was wrong with the drivers that caused a ton of latency and weird compression. It appeared to be something to do with everyone's favorite default audio system: Pulseaudio (have a look sometime at how many troubleshooting steps there are for the simple "I'm not getting audio out of Ubuntu", it's silly) I spent a few days trying to figure out the proper magical incantation to make ALSA work with my setup (Scarlet 2i2, pretty common), with no success. No matter how many semi-sketchy and unofficial websites I went through. Put it on Windows, works out of the box, sounds great. Went back to recording audio instead of doing IT.
- Agingcoder 5y ago
  Sound is the primary reason why I eventually left the Linux desktop - it broke on a regular basis, and randomly, because of pulseaudio. It worked in some apps, and not in others. In the end, I needed to get some work done, and not constantly fix my workstation, so I went down the OSX route I never looked back (no need to tinker at all, and I kind of understand the UI, while I find Windows to be very confusing, and to require tinkering ). I started using Linux in 1996, used a Linux desktop as my main box between 2001 and 2011, but, much to my chagrin, it just never reached any kind of 'it just works' level. Sure, there were good parts ( interesting UI ideas ), but the moment you started plugging/doing funky things into your computer ( printers, bluetooth, power outlets, wifi, speakers, fonts, multiple screens, 3d cards, etc you name it ), things started not working as expected. Note I still use a Linux workstation at the office. It still doesn't work well for anything which is not terminal oriented, it still loses its graphics settings on a regular basis, I still run into graphics driver issues, but I have a windows box next to it to handle everything else. The one thing I really miss on windows/OSX is i3, which completely changed my view of windowed environments ( I gave up on Gnome/KDE eons ago ).

FpUser 5y ago

I use both: Linux and Windows. Replacing Windows is out of the question as I have Windows based product and I also use Windows to develop software for Linux as well. All my Windows machines are Win 10 except one with Win 11 which I turn on every once in a while strictly to see if my product works. I might've done something with the settings and did all installations while disconnected from the Internet. Other then that I am curious what is so different in all my Windows setups? I do not have any ads and never mind Windows rebooting when editing documents mine never reboots on its own. When it is ready for update it just displays some icon in the tray. If I click it it will ask me to perform updates (which I normally do). Otherwise it just stays the way it is and does not reboot on its own. Windows 11 - it introduced enough flow disrupting changes so for now my attitude is fuck it. Will see what happens in the future.

SBArbeit 5y ago

It's good to know that this year is the year of the Linux Desktop. Just like last year. And the year before that. And the year before...

thetopher 5y ago
As an old Slashdot reader, I came looking for a comment like this. Thanks for not disappointing.
- bombcar 5y ago
  NetCraft confirms, *BSD is still dead. The year of the Linux Desktop was Android.
Ourgon 5y ago
1996 was the year for Linux on the desktop. FVWM, then Windomaker, then Sawmill/Sawfish, now Xmonad. Never looked back. From working at a publisher to doing development work at several companies to freelancing as hacker for hire to giving my 80+ mother a safe desktop to do administration and finances on while I live some 1300 km to the north of her, Linux rules the roost. Why? Because it works. No nasty surprises, no forced upgrades, no nonsense.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  I've come to this conclusion too. 1996 was the year of the Linux desktop. But... there's more to the story. In 1996 Linux was a clone of Unix, because there were still Unixes out there (HP-UX, SCO, etc.) that were charging $xx,000/seat. Everything good about Linux was taken from Unix. This put Unix vendors out of business, which is unfortunate because after that, Linux had nothing left to copy from. There were no new ideas from industry. Instead, it became design-by-committee and first-come-first-serve. That's why it's taken so long for X11 to be replaced by Wayland. Many internet flame wars had to happen before Wayland was uncontroversial enough to be included.
  - Ourgon 5y ago

Gareth321 5y ago

Fair comments but as someone who has tried many times to adopt Linux, I can honestly state that nothing in Windows comes close to the user-hostile UX approach in Linux. For example, Radarr is an extremely popular tool for managing movies. It connects to usenet and torrent clients, as well as indexers and movie databases. It makes maintaining a home movie collection seamless. Radarr is not in major package managers, and requires the CLI for install (https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux https://wiki.servarr.com/radarr/installation#linux). In Windows, I double click an .exe. In Linux I have to follow a reasonably complicated and time consuming installation process, full of opportunities to misconfigure the install. Radarr isn't a super hardcore 1337 program. It's a very common application aimed at everyone who runs Plex. Until a distro has a .exe equivalent for all applications like this, it's just not going to be a competitor to Windows, for users who need more than just a web browser, and those who are not IT administrators. Bottom line: make it so users never ever, for any reason ever, need to use the CLI. Until then, most of us will be sticking with Windows.

iknowstuff 5y ago
This is true, although the Windows model of .exe installers , which require admin permissions, isn't even the one to follow. The macOS, and especially the App Store model is far more user friendly. The non-esoteric distros and GNOME[1] recognize it and ship with a software manager akin to an app store. Those install snaps or flatpaks with one click. That's how you'd install Steam and all of its dependencies like Proton. The problem is that some software authors, like Radarr's, don't believe in the model. https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/41.0/figures/software.png https://help.gnome.org/misc/release-notes/41.0/figures/softw...
- smoldesu 5y ago
  > The problem is that some software authors, like Radarr's, don't believe in the model. And I don't really blame them. People love to pimp Flatpak and Snap, but nobody ever likes to talk about the issues that portals cause, the horrible rendering issues it lugs along, the lack of molecularity constantly breaking things on xorg/Wayland, the DBUS issues, the extremely esoteric configuration options, the auto-updating (!!!) and so on and so forth. Apple makes this work because they have hundreds of billions of dollars they can divert to R&D. Linux gets the short end of the stick because it's a game of chicken-and-egg: none of the developers want to work on Flatpak because none of the packagers want to provide packages for it because Flatpak has hundreds of outstanding bugs and an entire community of people like me who remember being promised bigger and better things on Linux, only to have them fall through the ground not even halfway into development. Simplicity is key. Flatpak, Snap, and all of it's ilk are not simple, which is why it's no surprise that their development is lethargic and adoption is, kindly put, sluggish.

farseer 5y ago

Adobe CC, Microsoft Office and Visual Studios prevent an all out shift to linux for the majority. LibreOffice, VSCode, Gimp/Inkscape and everything JetBrains has to offer just doesn't make the cut yet. But we are getting close by each passing year.

Mikeb85 5y ago
> Adobe CC, Microsoft Office and Visual Studios prevent an all out shift to linux for the majority How do you figure? Most people don't do any real photo editing or real asset creation. Microsoft Office isn't required for anything except Excel and that's fairly specific to a certain type of office worker. Visual Studio has many replacements, especially if you aren't using an MS stack top to bottom. Heck, when I was in business school (majored in Finance) the profs told us to use Google Docs over MS Office for basically everything except our Excel-specific assignments... Like we'd hand in assignments simply by sharing a Google Doc. So much easier than dealing with Word compatibility nonsense.
- Jensson 5y ago
  A typical business org uses microsoft office for documents, and they employ programmers writing plugins to their microsoft office products using visual studio which also integrates into their internal .NET business services. I doubt migration would be easy, as everything ties into each other.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Yes, I know. In my last corporate gig I was given a laptop with a bunch of MS crap on it. It was far, far worse than my normal setup (Ubuntu + OSS stuff + Google Docs). MS Teams specifically would consume so much memory that eventually other programs wouldn't open without a reboot (the laptop was kinda shit too). I know what you describe is a thing. That doesn't make it a good thing. Edit - should add, Office 365 file synching is also absolute shit. Drove me insane.
    - 5y ago

bitwize 5y ago

1970s: Secretaries learn to use Emacs for documents, and to literally write Emacs Lisp to customize it to their needs 2020s: Professional software developers on Hackernews: "Desktop Linux doesn't have software that works exactly like the software I like, so it's a complete nonstarter. I'd rather keep bending over for Microsoft than deal with anything different or with any sort of learning required."

poisonborz 5y ago
That's a wildly improper comparison, those secretaries were using that single text editor, strictly during their worktime. A (power)user today - besides learning the quirks of a whole operating system - possibly needs to adopt their workplace workflow, personal apps, media consumption, all the connected hardware like inputs, display, printer, smartphone connection, networking...
smoldesu 5y ago
"Sorry... I'd love to make the switch but I can't do it until they get Apple Mail up and running."
newaccount2021 5y ago
howeyc 5y ago
Correct. If the utility on Linux is not the exact same as Windows (or doesn't even exist, the horror!), then modifying your behavior or expectations is insane and is considered "ricing" and a complete waste of your time.
phendrenad2 5y ago
I laughed. Emacs is well-defined and well-designed. That doesn't apply to the rest of the software people have made for Linux in the last 50 years.

michaelcampbell 5y ago

> In 2015 when Windows 10 rebooted my machine to automatically install an update, closing down an unsaved document I was in the middle of working on, Do I have some magic aura that causes Microsoft to give me at least a 12 hour warning about updates? Because I honestly can't remember a time this sort of thing (instant update, no warning) has ever happened to me with Windows. I love Linux and do as much as I can for my job with it, or at least as close to POSIXy *ix as I can, but I hear these Windows stories and they just aren't in my reality. Note: I don't have an overbearing company that pushes a slew of nanny-spy-ware on to my work machine - I have a friend who does, and I BELIEVE his tales of woe because I believe him.

marcodiego 5y ago
12 hours... Nice, people will just forget before 2 minutes.
Jensson 5y ago
Not all programs bubbles up those notifications when you are in full screen, and since default behavior is to shut down the computer after x minutes of the notification appearing it will look like the computer restarts out of nowhere. Windows could have checked "if the user is actively using the computer do not restart", but no the computer just restarts in the middle of a gaming sessions or whatever.
- CogitoCogito 5y ago
  > Windows could have checked "if the user is actively using the computer do not restart", but no the computer just restarts in the middle of a gaming sessions or whatever. Even better would be to ask (and respect a user’s decision if they say “no”).
- michaelcampbell 5y ago
  Like this? https://i.imgur.com/j3TZBEE.png https://i.imgur.com/j3TZBEE.png
  - 5y ago

yoyohello13 5y ago

I’ve been using Linux exclusively at home for about 3 years (Fedora). I game, program and do office work. Maybe I’ve just gotten used to it, but I really don’t run into problems these days. I still need to live in windows for work and coming from my home environment I find it pretty painful to work in honestly.

Syonyk 5y ago

I've been on a similar journey and have largely ended up in the same sort of place - "Well, everything else has gone to hell in a handbasket, so I suppose I'll use the only things left I don't actively object to." And that list is getting smaller. You could mostly call me a "Unix Greybeard" at this point - I grew up with Windows, learned the joys of Unix on IRIX in the early 2000s, and never really went back. Linux is for servers and dev work desktops, but for about 18 years I'd been using OS X as a daily driver desktop. It really does "just work" for an awful lot of values of work, and it interfaces very nicely with Linux systems and has done so for a long while. With Microsoft's WSL and actually shipping a bloody SSH client now, Windows interfaces better, but it's a bit too little, too late. I never really objected to Windows, just never had much of a use case for it - but, despite that, I typically had a Windows desktop of some variety or another laying around for various purposes, and a Windows VM or three for [whatever] - currently I've got a Win10 VM that mostly runs UPS WorldShip (I used to ship a lot of hazmat, and I actually like the program for my shipping needs). Windows 10 has gotten "progressively more annoying" about online accounts. You used to be able to just say "No, thank you, I want a local account only." Then the options got more hidden, and then the option disappeared unless you literally don't have a network connection when you're installing it, and if you have a local account it starts nagging you more and more to "sign in with Microsoft!" Yes, you can turn it off, but the default is to badger the user. I don't want an online account for my local operating systems, thank you very much. Never have, never will. Windows 11, though, has turned into a "Nope, never..." option for me. Maybe in a VM if I really need to. The two major things that really upset me are the transition to a "You can't have a local account only on Win11 Home," and the bug in the beta in which a bad advertising JSON blob (from Microsoft!) absolutely hosed Explorer, rendering the OS unusable. There is no computing world I'm OK with in which basic OS operation and functionality should be rendered unusable by bad data from the internet, and that tells me where the priorities for Microsoft are: Tightly integrated advertising. With the "We must know your email address to use our OS," there's almost certainly some variety of behavioral analysis going on that they can use to profit on the backend from the "free" OS. You're the source of raw materials, and all... so Windows 11 is out. Apple was going well, and I really appreciated their privacy stance... and then they seem to have badly miscalculated and blown most of that trust, in my book, with the on-device, anti-user CSAM scanning that was a beautiful, ivory tower, academic exercise in novel crypto, that seems to have fallen apart literally as soon as people got their hands on the concept to play with. The photo hashing they're using couldn't withstand any basic adversarial attacks (either in terms of mutating images to avoid being detected, or in terms of deliberate image collisions), and they seem to have been caught dazed and confused in how their responses to concerns about it were almost "Oh, yeah, uh... yeah, we're definitely defending against that concern with this thing we just thought of at 3AM." The later documents and FAQs read like the output of someone operating on no sleep for a couple weeks, and some of their internal email quotes regarding the "screeching minority" didn't exactly go over very well either. Yes, I know they've "delayed" it, but they've not said "We're sorry, that was a terrible idea, and we're not going to do that or anything like it" either, so... Apple's out. Sad, really, the M1 Mac Mini I bought when it was announced is, by far, the best computer I've used across a huge variety of metrics, and the M1 Mac Pros are quite literally exactly what I want in a laptop. Oh well. I'll find alternatives. If I'm going to continue using modern computing (which, unfortunately, isn't quite as optional as I'd really prefer in the modern world), that leaves me staring down the Linux path, and so I've gone that way. Linux on the desktop isn't perfect, but neither is it nearly as painful as it used to be. It does most of the stuff I care about - and my attitude has changed around to, "If I can't do it on Linux, then I suppose it's not something I should particularly care about doing." I'm at a point in my life where that's entirely viable for me, so it's the route I've gone. ... and then for added pain, because I'm apparently allergic to working computers at this point, I've gotten pretty well upset with Intel over the last few years with "Yet Another Microarchitectural Vulnerability" (and then the endless variations on a theme that they didn't patch against when they fixed the first set - come on, if the academics understand your processors better than the people in charge of fixing them, that's a problem too). AMD is an option, but as ARM has been coming up the ladder quickly in performance, I've set out to try and use as much ARM as I can. So, my primary laptop, for when I use it, is a PineBook Pro, I've got an ODroid N2+ and RasPi4 running as office desktops (and am uncomfortably excited about the upcoming Rock5 with NVMe and 16GB RAM), etc. I still have some x86 in my life for certain things, but I'm trying very hard to reduce that over time. While I'm at it, I've gone back to a flip phone, and I don't even bother bringing that with me half the time I go out anymore. I won't say I always like the corners I've painted myself into, but I'm at least comfortable with where I am. I'm not having to say, "This thing Company X is doing is horrible... but, I mean, what am I gonna do?" and then use Company X's software/hardware. I'm able to do most of the things I want to do, even if they're a bit more roundabout than they used to be, and I'm OK with that. But, as I get older, even working in the low weeds of tech, I do look forward to, at some point, being able to just put down a computer for the last time. The future they promised and the future we got have diverged so badly, and just continue to diverge.

TedShiller 5y ago

Gave up on Microsoft in the 90s. Never looked back.

trulyme 5y ago
Me too. Had to go back to Windows at $JOB recently and find the experience... unpleasant, to put it mildly. I guess once you get used to a certain way it's difficult to change it. Hoping to get rid of Windows again soon. Can't imagine using W11, from what I've seen.
vanous 5y ago
Same story here, happy Linux user since the 90s... at home on family computers and at job. It's like choosing Netflix vs HBO Go - takes a few days to find your favorites, once you get it you are all set and don't worry anymore about the competition.
socceroos 5y ago
Same situation. I've used Windows over the years for playing some games with friends, but even that had become something that I can do entirely in Linux too. Call me a fool, but I'm also loving Gnome 40+ and GTK 4.6+, especially with libadwaita.
II2II 5y ago
I also left Windows in the mid-1990's. I have tried looking back from time to time, when it felt like it would make life at work easier. The thing is, it never does. That doesn't really say anything about Windows, since it has improved a lot over the years and my reasons for leaving it are no longer valid. It says more about what I am used to, how I expect to get things done, what I am willing to put up with, and what I am not willing to put up with.
phendrenad2 5y ago
I've been trying since the 90s. I became a Linux expert, but I've still failed to switch to Linux. The reasons are probably: (A) The mythos of Microsoft collecting all of our information and storing it until the end of time seems incredibly unrealistic to me (B) I don't like friction, Linux is full of unnecessary friction to get anything done (C) Lack of commercial programs, and a user base that is actively hostile to the idea of commercial software (FOSS is better, don't you know?) and/or hostile to changes that would make commercial software more viable on Linux (D) Difficulty in actually fixing things, which I have tried to do many times (the Linux ecosystem is built from some truly awful codebases) (E) constant glitches and bugs, which I don't have time to track down and fix

shawnb576 5y ago

Every time I try this I go thru standard stages: 1. Ugh I want to run docker natively, Ubuntu looks good, I’ll do that 2. Install latest Ubuntu. It’s great! Love the shell. Hardware works. I can run Windows in Virtual Box for odd apps. 3. Why is my battery life so bad? Why won’t Bluetooth stay connected? 4. I am full Linux. I am living the creed! 5. I am so tired of constantly fixing something. Why is Spotify rendering weird. Why doesn’t mouse scroll work in Firefox. 6. I don’t have time for this. Back to Windows. I think now that WSL has matured, it’s just hard to justify going back. Everything works and I get real Linux.

sschueller 5y ago
I use manjaro a version of arch and I will never go back. Yes, sometimes things to don't but windows has issues as well. I had it with this anti user direction we are going because you know "security reasons". Microsoft decides what is malware, they decide what we are allowed to install, they track everything you do and if you want to turn if off forget it. Everytime you update they try to force you to make a MS account, I don't need this crap in my life. I'd rather spend an hour fixing something and knowing it's all under my control and my interests not some corporation's profit interests.
- phendrenad2 5y ago
  I tried to use Linux but it was a death by a thousand paper cuts of bugs and glitches. I've never experienced Windows stopping me from running a program, maybe you're actually trying to run malware? It's a good idea to install an antivirus or at least windows defender so you can avoid these.
  - sschueller 5y ago
    Try Virtualbox in combination with docker and WSL2, that was a disaster in Windows.
    - phendrenad2 5y ago
      How so?

reset-password 5y ago

For anyone else in the "thinking about it" to "preparing for it" stage of the switch, I've been getting myself ready by switching to cross-platform software one piece at a time while still daily driving a Windows machine. In past failed attempts to switch it just was too jarring for everything to be different all at once. But now that I've already replaced all the Windows exclusive software in my life, I expect that next time I try full-timing on Linux again it will feel more like visiting the next town over than it will visiting a foreign country.

qot 5y ago

Linux isn't even close for normal people's desktop use. Just recently I tried and failed to simply set up a screensaver that turns my screen black (not off!) to save my display from burn-in. Eventually I just gave up. You can't do this with stock GNOME. I also tried xscreensaver (but the Debian-specific instructions in the man page are out of date) and xfce4-screensaver, both didn't work. I've been using Debian GNU/Linux since Feb 2016 and consider myself adept but still couldn't figure this very simple task out.

nxbp 5y ago
What? It really couldn't be simpler: You open settings -> screensaver, choose blank after N minutes and close the settings window. Works.
- qot 5y ago
  I have no screensaver options under settings: https://i.imgur.com/WM3xIWL.png https://i.imgur.com/WM3xIWL.png Note, I'm using Debian Sid. Gnome 3.36.2 on Wayland.
  - nano9 5y ago
    Try looking under Power.
    - qot 5y ago
      Nope, this is quite the opposite of black: https://i.imgur.com/L0O0fNn.png https://i.imgur.com/L0O0fNn.png It also turns my display off, which is not what I want: https://i.imgur.com/z5BIqGj.png https://i.imgur.com/z5BIqGj.png Seems like it's not as simple as @nxbp claims.
prmoustache 5y ago
Even my grandmother who used her first computer late in her seventies knew how to do that on linux.

amanzi 5y ago

I just blew away my last Windows installation and completed the move to Pop!_OS. I keep a VM running Windows 10 Pro around so I can access Office desktop apps and some Windows-specific software I need, but I spend most of my time in Linux now and have love it.

pickledcods 5y ago

I have a 4k monitor and at first bumped my head into many walls because of the excruciating bad or missing font size/selection support. Tried literally all the desktops and file managers. Ended with Mate/Xfe, both with amazing and consistent font support. Redshift for time dependent colour temperature is also worth mentioning.

Paianni 5y ago
Screen size?

foxes 5y ago

I find it totally incomprehensible how anyone could possibly still use Windows seriously as a developer/hacker/programmer/interested in computing. Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything. Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent. Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric. Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11, inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??), lack of coherent design. I personally do not trust Microsoft at all. All these pro Windows comments with minor substantiation seem bizarre.

jonathantf2 5y ago
> with no way to automate anything Most things in Windows can be automated with PowerShell, application installs are usually just a silent install switch away.
__del__ 5y ago
i was similarly perplexed but upon reflection i may understand it. windows kept me at the level of "power user," and i suspect it lulls many into that complacency. sure i wrote a few windows programs, debugged a few i hadn't written, and i ran some pretty niche tools, but i wasn't truly hacking on my system. most of it was off limits anyway, but more importantly i had stopped learning because i was a power user with niche tools and that felt like plenty. with linux i can patch software to satisfy whims and have it cooperating with the package management ecosystem in minutes. suppose i want to do something simple, like suppress an annoying error message i don't care about. i expect that downloading the source code, grepping for the error, removing it, compiling, packaging, and installing will take me something like 3 minutes of effort. seriously. these power users don't know what they're missing.
phendrenad2 5y ago
> I find it totally incomprehensible Happy to help > Installing software in Windows is insane, relies on you to blindly trust an exe, non reproducible, and with no way to automate anything These three points are wrong, but I understand your confusion. You don't blindly trust an exe, you download it via https from the official website. The installs are "reproducible" to a point that 99% of users care about. You can automate installations for popular software quite easily. > Don't conflate problems with your proprietary software and Linux. Shockingly you may have to adapt and learn something new, or find something equivalent. "Conflation" is the wrong word there. But regardless, ironically you're conflating "not knowing" new software and complaining about bugs in new software. You seem to be saying that no one should do either, simply because both are a case of "not knowing". It's very popular to dismiss bugs in Linux software as someone "not knowing" how to use it, but it's lazy thinking. > Don't conflate weird hardware issue as a fault with Linux for not supporting it. Blame the manufacturer for doing something esoteric. That's wrong. On what basis do you say that all hardware issues on Linux are the result of the manufacturer doing "something esoteric"? In reality, having looked into it myself, it's very possible to hold Linux partly at fault for ALL hardware issues. Why? Because you may not know this but on Linux, unlike Windows, all drivers effectively must be approved and included in the kernel source code by L. Torvalds himself. That sets an incredibly high bar for driver availability, and causes Linux to lag behind other OSs in terms of driver support. Bet you also didn't know that hardware manufacturers need to retest their driver after every kernel update, because the kernel team often breaks things, and if the manufacturer doesn't keep on top of their driver code, it'll fall into disrepair. (Meanwhile on Windows your Windows vista drivers from 2007 will work in Windows 11(!) > Not to mention all the blatantly user hostile features in Win 10/11 Most people do not experience features in Windows 10/11 that they consider harmful. You may experience them as harmful. You may see others experiencing them and consider them harmful. But most people who experience them do not find them harmful. Got it? > inconsistencies (O(10) ways to decorate a window??) Most people don't care about that, believe it or not (most people are smart enough to not fall off their chair and explode when they encounter a strangely-styled window border) > I personally do not trust Microsoft at all. Why do I get the feeing most posts like this could be summarized thusly...

spicymaki 5y ago

Am I the only one that uses Linux, Windows, and MacOS daily? Why settle for just one OS environment? What a time to be alive. I fail to see the value in all of these culture wars. It never ends. All of these systems work great for me. Thanks to all of hard work from all of the engineering teams and volunteers that put these systems together.

V_Terranova_Jr 5y ago
They're not merely culture wars, they're also value wars. Both Windows and MacOS are headed toward continuous behind-your-back communication with their respective motherships. In the case of Windows, they have the audacity to shamelessly advertise on your personal computer.
- spicymaki 5y ago
  There are plenty of opensource programs with telemetry built in. Many company build there products using opensource components and sell your information in the backend. This is not an opensource vs. closed source argument. This is a data rights/privacy argument and until governments and citizens take the matter seriously we will get nowhere.
  - V_Terranova_Jr 5y ago
    I totally agree that we are well past the point where data security and privacy need strong regulation or legislation. At least Europe has GDPR. However, I hard disagree with drawing a false equivalence between the open source community, particularly in the operating system space (which this article is about), and the closed-source commercial vendors. Also disagree that adopting open source "gets us nowhere" in this battle. Sure, there is some telemetry in the open source world, as we see in the Firefox discussion. We also see reactions such as LibreWolf, or community outrage at the likes of GitLab when this happens. It's just not part of the open source community's ethos to look the other way at hidden telemetry. In the open source realm it is a) it is the exception rather than the rule, and b) the fact they are doing it is clearly knowable and neuterable[1]. That's a far cry from Apple validating every executable you run, or Microsoft not even allowing you to opt-out of telemetry, and god knows what other vendors of core closed source software do now. I'm not an open source zealot, but the race to the bottom over the past 10 years just hardens my resolve to own my devices and not the other way around. [1] Again, talking about client-side software or servers you run/control. You will always have to figure out how much you trust SaaS providers regardless of what software is part of their offering.

V_Terranova_Jr 5y ago

I've no doubt that significant proprietary software and games tie people to Windows. However, if a) those are not core to your desktop OS use, b) you care about privacy and your OS not doing a lot of external communication behind your back, and c) you're a member of this community, it's hard to understand why you wouldn't take something like Linux seriously as a daily driver. Step one is admitting that all desktop operating systems suck - none of them are actually engineered, they've just been crafted over decades. Second is realizing that unless you don't give a damn about what is going behind your back on your own system, you will have to embrace some form of suck. Maybe the Windows and MacOS fans don't mind having to do things like trick Windows into not sending "telemetry" or using Little Snitch to block whatever daemons Apple wants communicating to their servers for every executable you run. As much as I swear JWZ was right about the CADT development model, more often than not, if I learn the incantations I can deterministically make Linux do what I need it to do. And I'm no software development badass like many here. I hate that I have to know so much about something so clearly not well-engineered, but am glad that it's deterministic and there's no vendor hellbent on trying to keep me from configuring my system in the way I see fit. In the worst case if I can't figure it out from documentation, forums, whatever, I can look at source code. I'm not going to tell you "Linux is awesome!", but I will say that I think it's the least bad option. Also, of the common choices out there, I find today's KDE to be quite usable and pleasant.

jarbus 5y ago

A lot of people in this thread seem to suffer with bugs on Linux. In my experience, bugs with systems like WiFi and Bluetooth have been related to the specific hardware I’m using. For my current laptop, I made sure it could run arch with no problems before buying, and I’ve had no issues with WiFi or Bluetooth. That being said, battery life sucks and thunderbolt 3 docks work unreliably.

draw_down 5y ago

kkfx 5y ago

My own personal history: - first machine a dismissed SGI O₂ so Irix/CDE I do not remember witch version - after few year my first laptop with Windows XP (newly released): I was shocked how limited and bad it is. - quickly turn to GNU/Linux following some family friend / teachers suggestion, unsatisfied, they were still crap compared to Irix to my eyes - turn to FreeBSD, hw issues but not much (it was the time from linux 2.4-2.6 passage) I start to breathe a bit - OpenSolaris then another breathe - Back to FreeBSD after it's death but too many hw issues, so back again to GNU/Linux, now still on it with NixOS That short history to state a thing: hw got more and more powerful but also crappy and software keep turning to crap. I think that anti-customer age start right after Xerox/LispM era, even SGI was bad respect of them, they have tried "the unix way" and quickly touch it's limits badly correcting them introducing anti-unix patterns in Unix with GUIs. In that context my desktop environment is Emacs (EXWM) and while buggy and limited in bootloader OS terms I do not really know how people can keep using "modern GUI", not only Windows since their absurd limits and limitations. The main point is that a desktop must be a flexible tool for the human user, not an endpoint, not a dumb terminal, not a set of know pre-determined by someone else. The rest is noise.

TheRealDunkirk 5y ago

I ran Linux on the desktop for 19 years before moving to Macs. I never had any hardware issues, because I always bought kit that was well-supported under Linux, and stayed away from, say, "winmodems" and wifi chipsets with Windows-only binary blobs. I think so many of the problems people have with trying to move to Linux is that they get a wild hair one day, and then just try to switch, using the Microsoft-subsidized hardware they already have. My advice? Switch with some fresh hardware. Buy a GOOD machine that is known to have good support. Buy GOOD peripherals. With both, make sure you're buying stuff that actually works on its own, and doesn't require software magic in Windows. You're going to have to research a little, and probably spend a little more than you normally would, but Microsoft has made this situation the way it is. If you really want to escape their gravity well, you're probably going to have to do more than just switch your OS.

phendrenad2 5y ago
I also tried to stay away from "winmodems", but even in 2022 I have hardware issues on Linux, on a boring business-class HP desktop(!), the very thing people say never has any issues under Linux... lol... I tracked it down to the Intel driver for ACPI or something breaking sleep/wakeup. It's a kernel issue so I guess I'll just have to wait 5 years for someone to fix it.
- TheRealDunkirk 5y ago
  To be fair, I would never consider "boring, business-class" desktops to be a viable Linux machine. Machines designed for bulk sales to boring businesses are exactly the bargain-basement, Windows-subsidized pieces of kit I was saying should be avoided, regardless of "people say never has any issues."