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MasterCard suspends all services in Russia

257 points by bradvl 5y ago

unpopularq88 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ls15 5y ago
  What else are they supposed to do?
  - unpopularq88 5y ago
    - qznc 5y ago
      They worked for years towards becoming a EU member. Putin wants to turn them back into a puppet state for "his sovjet union".
      - toyg 5y ago
        The saddest thing really is that it was all for nought - the EU won't allow any new members for a generation or more, as it tries to complete the scalable political and economic infrastructure it already needs to work with 27 unruly members. Be it Ukraine, Turkey, Serbia, or whichever - nobody is getting in anytime soon, and making sacrifices towards that objective is delusional.
      - 331c8c71 5y ago
        EU is irrelevant. They could be EU if they agree to neutrality and let go of crimea and donbass. EDIT: EU was explicitly mentioned as irrelevant by putins press-secretary in a recent press conference (he was asked about it).
        megous 5y ago
        And how exactly would Putin's pupet government work towards joining the EU? It's not like it's a job for normal citizens to work towards that. This requires a desire and a massive effort of a whole government, to achieve. Sounds like a joke.
        331c8c71 5y ago
        Thats not putins problem if whoever ukraine "elects" is not able to join EU or if the EU doesn't take them. No one forbids them.
        pxtail 5y ago
        (Un)fortunately there is absolutely no credibility anymore behind any messages released by putins govt, they proved multiple times already that they are saying one thing and doing another.
    - reverend_gonzo 5y ago
      I’d rather die a free man than live 100 years under a dictatorship.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    work out a deal with russia (there were 2 rounds of talks and the third will be on 7th)
    - ls15 5y ago
      What has Russia to offer for such a deal, except stopping the violence?
      - 331c8c71 5y ago
        russia could help with rebuilding ukraine if sanctions are weakened. Grozny was rebuilt after all.
- megous 5y ago
  Because they feel they have a chance at a better outcome. If you don't fight there will be no negotiation with Putin. You'll just be rolled over. Negotiation and better position at negotiation table is only possible when you fight the aggressor.
323 5y ago
Visa too: > Visa Suspends All Russia Operations https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.releaseId.18871.html https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.rele... MasterCard/Visa cards issued in Russia will not work abroad, cards issued abroad will not work in Russia. > MasterCard/Visa account for three-quarters of payments in Russia https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1500239116625379329 https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/150023911662537932...
- dehrmann 5y ago
  Visa. Its everywhere you want to be.
- tananaev 5y ago
  Interesting that the title says all operations are suspended, but description basically says that foreign cards won't work in Russia and Russian cards work abroad, but does it mean local Russian cards will still work in Russia? That's probably majority of transactions anyway. A bit confused here.
  - 323 5y ago
    The MastarCard statement suggests that Russian cards will not work in Russia. > we have decided to suspend our network services in Russia.
    - tananaev 5y ago
      It's phrased very carefully "cards issued by Russian banks will no longer be supported by the Mastercard network", which sounds like they still might work in Russia even if they are not supported by the network. Next sentence is "any Mastercard issued outside of the country will not work at Russian merchants". Why make this clear distinction? Why not just say that all Mastercard won't work in Russia?
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
TarasBob 5y ago
- 3np 5y ago
  ...for bitcoin?
samwillis 5y ago
Mirror: https://archive.ph/d5RmA https://archive.ph/d5RmA (was down) Key passage: “ With this action, cards issued by Russian banks will no longer be supported by the Mastercard network. And, any Mastercard issued outside of the country will not work at Russian merchants or ATMs.” I don’t believe it’s clear that cards issued in Russia are not still being accepted within Russia. Which is what I believe Visa is still doing: “ all transactions initiated with Visa cards issued in Russia will no longer work outside the country and any Visa cards issued by financial institutions outside of Russia will no longer work within the Russian Federation.” https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.releaseId.18871.html https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.rele... If MasterCard is matching Visa it’s effectively cross border transactions that have stopped - not withdraw access to Russian issued cards within Russia. If they have withdrawn access to Russian cards within Russia it’s going to put enormous pressure on Russian citizens. Visa and Mastercard apparently have 73% of the credit card market in Russia. This could be the type of pressure need for citizens to push back at the Russian administration (not that they aren’t already).
- 3np 5y ago
  So individuals who recently left Russia out of fear for the regime and may be in very vulnerable positions have potentially unexpectedly lost access to their funds until they can sort that out... Meanwhile, for The Real Russians, business as usual. This looks like theatre hurting the wrong people.
  - alkonaut 5y ago
    Anyone who ran across the border and hoped to get their savings from inside Russia once out were naive (or more likely just in a hurry). This is one of few good use cases for cryptocurrency.
    - throw-ru-938 5y ago
      Getting hard currency in Russia right now is a long and difficult process, there's a massive shortage.
savant_penguin 5y ago
"We’re undergoing site maintenance. But don’t worry — as there’s no impact to your ability to make Mastercard purchases or payments" Unless you're Russian I guess. As much as I enjoy the act this could backfire as a show of the tremendous power these companies have: shutting down credit card payments will likely impact large portions of online payments. But at the same time every extra inefficiency in the Russian economy could translate into less bullets going to kill Ukrainians
- youngNed 5y ago
  > shutting down credit card payments will likely impact large portions of online payments. I can't think of a way to reply to this without being trite or insulting, but genuinely, what do you think is the point of a sanction?
  - cgio 5y ago
    I think the point the gp was making was with regards to sanctions from private entities. My note here is that while the scale of private entities sanctions currently is novel, they themselves are not, e.g. boycotts have happened in the past many times.
  - savant_penguin 5y ago
    My first reaction was "this is going to force a bunch of people to use cash again" But the, maybe obvious to you not to me, consequence is that this could shutdown the entire online marketplace in Russia (at least in the short term) Also I'm not sure I'd call it a sanction since it's coming from a private company, not a government. If I were any country right now I'd also take it as a warning to not depend on Mastercard or Visa given the immense power they hold
    - youngNed 5y ago
      This thread has been a real eye opener for me. I'm not sure that many people realise what economic sanctions mean, as I replied to someone else on this thread: "As a result of sanction orders, we have blocked multiple financial institutions from the Mastercard payment network. We will continue to work with regulators in the days ahead to abide fully by our compliance obligations as they evolve." Source: https://www.mastercard.com/news/press/2022/february/mastercard-statement/ https://www.mastercard.com/news/press/2022/february/masterca... But I'm amazed, why do you think a company would leave money on the table?? PR? Virtue signaling? Really??
systemvoltage 5y ago
Do companies of this size already have the infrastructure built, a kill switch of the sorts, to turn off an entire country’s payment system? I’m thinking not just technology wise, but also things like existing subscriptions and contractual legal stuff between countries, customers, etc. It seems like a monumental undertaking to integrate payment systems for a new country, turning it off seems even more impressive.
- lil_dispaches 5y ago
  I don't think this is act of war protest. These corporation know the inside score, they help write the narrative. I predict these companies are giving up Russia for good. This is a signal of a long term shift in world order and these corporate boards know it, because they engineer it with policies and propaganda.
  - chasd00 5y ago
    Accenture and McKinsey both closed up shop in Russia. For those two to leave money on the table means there’s definitely something big happening behind the scenes.
    - lil_dispaches 5y ago
      Ya, and the oil companies too are not simply pausing, but leaving large investments in the field.
- tmp_anon_22 5y ago
  Sanctions aren't new, any sufficiently large international company likely has dealt with this before. And it doesn't happen all at once, you start by turning off new registrants, then you go through records of existing entities that need to be turned off and turn them off, then you continue to watch for whatever you missed.
  - lil_dispaches 5y ago
    Visa and Mastercard are not issuing "sanctions", nobody told them to cut off Russia, they are willfully making calculated business decisions.
mananaysiempre 5y ago
As far as I can tell, this will mainly have an impact on people trying to leave, because payments within the country will still work (if badly because the substitute system, NSPK, is shoddy), but the Russian government doesn’t allow crossing the border with more than the equivalent of 10k USD in cash (since several days ago) and most other money transfer companies are refusing service as well. So, for example, previously locals employed by companies that valiantly declared their condemnation of Putin by shutting down their Russian offices had three choices: work for a company that does support Putin, leave, or starve. Now it’s just work for a Putin supporter or starve. (Not entirely true because at least some of those companies put their employees on paid leave for now, but that’s still probably what it will ultimately boil down to in the relatively near future. Passenger planes being arrested in foreign airports because of sudden lease termination make for a similar one-two punch combo together with Putin’s closure of the land border in 2020: it’s getting very hard—and expensive—to physically leave even if you don’t want anything to do with this [15-year jail sentence] and never did.) Good job..?
- postsantum 5y ago
  Your understanding is correct. It's illegal to be opposition inside of the country, so now people who would otherwise be leaving now, are stuck inside
- jimbob45 5y ago
  As other threads have stated, outbound Russian flights have been permanently shut down beyond a few weeks from now (and all flights are full). It doesn’t seem to be the case that exit is an option for many Russians, money or not.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - lostwords 5y ago
    It's somewhat true, but there are still options, actually. Russian carriers canceled their flights, but some foreign carriers are still flying. It's quite expensive now, of course, and not very convenient, but if you desperately want to leave and you have some money, it's doable.
grandpoobah 5y ago
Call me insane, but this feels insane. It would be one thing if Visa/Mastercard were being forced to do this, but for them to take it upon themselves to "pick a side" during a global conflict feels really wrong.
- forty 5y ago
  Why? Companies are owned, run and used by humans, and humans have feelings and conscience, and they sometimes use them to make decisions.
- ur-whale 5y ago
  > but for them to take it upon themselves they're not. they do what they're told.
- conk 5y ago
  It’s not picking sides it’s a result of economic sanctions. How are financial transactions going to clear when Visa/MC can’t transfer money in/out of Russia.
  - piskov 5y ago
    Sanctions were imposed on 6(?) banks, not on entire banking system. Even swift works with any other russian bank.
- youngNed 5y ago
  I don't think you are insane, I do however think you should probably read up on what 'sanctions' means
- toyg 5y ago
  They picked sides in the past too, ask one Mr. Assange how he knows.
- pmalynin 5y ago
  No, its not insane for them to do this -- in fact the opposite. Every person has to make the decision for themselves in the end, this goes all the way to presidents and political leaders. You will either stand by, profit and watch, as a neo-Nazi regime rapes a country -- or you will take a stance. When this is all over people will be asking: Where were you and what did you do when the war was happening?
ghiculescu 5y ago
I’m not pro crypto or pro Russia, but the fact that it’s so easy to lose ones freedom to transact[0] (regardless of the specific merits here) is troubling. [0] https://mobile.twitter.com/punk6529/status/1494444624630403083 https://mobile.twitter.com/punk6529/status/14944446246304030...
- rootusrootus 5y ago
  Hasn't really been a problem for other countries to avoid this problem, so I'm not sure how worried I ought to be. Like so many things, I'll worry about trends when there is a trend.
  - cm2187 5y ago
    It has been a problem. There is pretty much a duopoly, look at the difficulties you face if they disapprove your business or politics. More competition is long overdue. But we are testing modern finance by weaponising the financial system. The most problematic move I think has been freezing the central bank's reserve. It might achieve the short term gain of hurting Russia, but what about the long term impact on the trust in holding foreign currencies?
    - cgio 5y ago
      I anticipate lots of gold moving physically over the next few months.
      - theshrike79 5y ago
        Pretty much all of Russia's liquid cash is in physical gold and bills, it'll be interesting to see how that's getting moved and used.
      - stubish 5y ago
        Unfortunately for Russia, if it does need to significantly dip into it's gold reserves it is likely to crash that market. I think China will get to negotiate a sweet discount to convert it to Yuan, if for no other reason than China seems to be the only place the gold can be laundered at the moment. I think I heard about $US 180bn worth?
sonicggg 5y ago
This seems like a PR play. What's the end goal of these sanctions? Haven't seen them able to topple governments in Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, etc. They are even less likely to work with Russia.
- Chyzwar 5y ago
  It is not sanctions directly, It is change of perception on Russia. In one week, Russia become toxic economy and no longer viable to invest. This is much worse than sanctions. This might not topple Putin, but it would bankrupt Russia in the next 3 months.
textech 5y ago
I guess this will just accelerate adoption of China's UnionPay or their homegrown MIR.
- wrycoder 5y ago
  And their social credit technology.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  One unintended outcome of this could be Russia depending in China. It's too big to be a puppet state, but China would be the one calling the shots.
  - tsol 5y ago
    China is certainly thinking about expanding their influence right now. I don't know exactly to what extent they can do that, but I'm sure they can see the opportunity for what it is. They've been expanding their influence in the Eastern world for some time
nickysielicki 5y ago
It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where these sanctions (not just Mastercard and Visa, but all of it as a whole) are reduced without a total regime change in Russia. This is becoming a massive divestment, and I'm not sure it's a great idea. There's no guarantee that what replaces Putin is going to be more Western and not reactionary. For every Russian that is cosmopolitan and globalist, there's a dozen Russians in small villages that are True Believers and will see this foreign pressure for what it is: replacing a Russian president that, at least in their mind, they put there. Even if you assume that it's going to be a democratic and Western government that rises from the ashes, I think the timescale for this is in years, not months, and I think that the impact on the average citizen in The West is going to be massive while we wait that out. I paid north of $80 last night for 18 gallons of fuel, and it's only going to get worse. In Europe, they're staring down the barrel of a significant energy crisis next winter. Energy is everything: it's fertilizer and it's heat. And this is all on the tail of record inflation and a shaky economy. Hot take: I think this is going to backfire and we're going to see destabilization in Europe and America before Putin is ousted. War tends to be a boon for the economy in the West, but I see good reason why this time could be different.
- johnny22 5y ago
  >> There's no guarantee that what replaces Putin is going to be more Western and not reactionary. Who is assuming that's what is going to happen?
- risyachka 5y ago
  They are not true believers. They will believe what is on the TV. If you start running new propaganda - they will start believing it. And you don't need a western-oriented government in russia. All that is needed is to remove one psycho, after that things will mostly go back to normal after russia compensates all damages and returns all territories.
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  > Energy is everything: it's fertilizer and it's heat. And this is all on the tail of record inflation and a shaky economy. There's a reason we tolerated the Saudi bombing Yemen.
throw-ru-938 5y ago
Since the war started, and the repressions inside Russia tightened (e.g. news stations being taken off air for calling this war a "war"), a lot of us Russians including myself have been fleeing the country, fearing for our safety. Now Visa/Mastercard have left us all without access to money. If I were more of a conspiracy type, I'd say they and Putin are on the same side now.
- xdennis 5y ago
  > If I were more of a conspiracy type, I'd say they and Putin are on the same side now. Is MasterCard is bombing civilians?
colesantiago 5y ago
Please do not use crypto no matter how tempting it is to join the Ponzi scheme as I said before and many other critics like Stephen Diehl (@smdiehl), Molly White (@molly0xFFF) (@web3isgreat creator) and more reliable critics. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30512981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30512981 Please try use Paypal with a VPN or in another country, Moneygram, Western Union or use cash, better yet use Transferwise (Wise) or buy gift cards to get your money out.
- prostoalex 5y ago
  The motivation to trade from rubles to crypto is obvious. But if you're holding crypto today, what's the motivation to exit and assume a large ruble position?
  - notch656a 5y ago
    This is the question I've been asking. At first glance, one may think it's a great idea to go long crypto right now. But with RUB being radioactive, it's hard to imagine how RUB-crypto pairs can possibly have much impact on the market.
- nickysielicki 5y ago
  As an American, I'm tempted to put everything I own into Monero.
  - colesantiago 5y ago
    Monero isn't really private or secure and was a subject to a 51% attack so this is a moot point.
    - analyte123 5y ago
      Can you elaborate on what makes Monero not private or secure?
      - 5y ago
pjkundert 5y ago
Regardless of what side you're on -- this is a wake-up call. If you ever, as a civilian, get on the "wrong" side of any local or global event: you get to freeze on a park bench. Your keys, your coins. Their keys, their coins. Anyone who is paying attention, globally, is now realizing that they need to begin moving at least some assets into cryptocurrencies, in their own, personal accounts. The problem is: BIP-39 is a train-wreck, from any practical security and reliability perspective. Basically, any "normal" person setting up a Crypto account w/ BIP-39 seed recovery is just gonna lose their money. I estimate 10% a year probability of total account loss: probably greater. Use SLIP-39: https://slip39.kundert.ca/macos https://slip39.kundert.ca/macos. Set up an account. Fund it. Get this done. Because: you're next...
- chrsw 5y ago
  It's not a wake up call for me. This is in line with expectations. If the economic sanctions don't work I assume the next phase is cyber war at scale. If that doesn't work, traditional hot war.
  - empressplay 5y ago
    NATO will not get involved in Ukraine militarily ever. Period. This isn’t a stage, this is all there is. Accept it already.
    - chrsw 5y ago
      Why would Putin stop at Ukraine?
      - 331c8c71 5y ago
        because he's not expanding russia. hes not letting ukraine to join nato. Check john mearsheimer for an understanding how putin thinks
        chrsw 5y ago
ZoomZoomZoom 5y ago
You'd think letting people transfer money outside of the sanctioned country is in accord to the stated goals of sanctions. Is this move really practical, or just a showing MC and Visa are politically in line with the rest of the businesses?
- dgoldstein0 5y ago
  I'd imagine in a lot of cases the payment network doesn't know if you are moving your own money, or paying for something - the latter which could benefit Russia or a Russian company. E.g. if was Russian and paying Google for Google docs for my Russia based business - I think that might be disallowed by the current sanctions? I suppose I'm trying to say - the payment providers see where the cash is going, but not what you are getting in return. Without that visibility it's hard to more selectively ban transactions.
artdigital 5y ago
I have a Russian friend living abroad for a longer period of time and paying his day to day expenses with savings through credit cards. They all stopped working and he has no way to pay for anything anymore. I get why it’s done but it’s still sad to see people that have nothing to do with this situation get hit like this
- Symbiote 5y ago
  My colleague's brother in Ukraine has had his day to day life interrupted by Russians dropping bombs on the city.
  - azth 5y ago
    What does this have to do with the post you replied to? Two wrongs don't make a right.
    - disiplus 5y ago
      no, but it puts it into perspective.
    - xdennis 5y ago
      It does when one is caused by the other.
      - marrone12 5y ago
        Russian citizens did not cause this war...
        krn 5y ago
        You could say the same about the German citizens and WWII.
        drdaeman 5y ago
        One could, yes. As far as I'm aware, even a matter of collective guilt (which is related but different from causation) is not exactly unanimously agreed upon between renown philosophers. And just to be clear - I'm not saying it's true or false (heck, I have very mixed feelings), I'm saying it's arguable.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lostwords 5y ago
It's the first action against Russia that made me angry. It's so stupid and wrong at the same time. So, in Russia all the cards will work, nothing is changed here (despite the statements of Visa and Mastercard). Cards issued by Russian banks would stop work abroad. The same is true for any foreign cards in Russia. So, foreigners in Russia are fucked. People who left Russia in a hurry because they didn't want to be part of this craziness or because it's dangerous for them to stay (i.e. they are known protesters against the regime) are fucked. Nice move. Simply genius.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- sneak 5y ago
  Political/humanitarian circumstances aside, this is a good reminder to all of us, everywhere, that 100% reliance on centralized electronic payment systems is risky because they have rare but total failure modes. ALWAYS carry and travel with cash, no matter what. ALWAYS keep enough cash hidden in your home to cover a month or more of expenses.
  - DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
    > ALWAYS carry and travel with cash, no matter what. Funny, that's the exact opposite of the advice I hear to only travel with only petty-cash and rely on cards instead, so if you're mugged/robbed or simply misplace your wallet you won't be SOL far from home.
    - latchkey 5y ago
      Exactly. Never mind that as you cross borders, there are legal limits to the amounts you can carry as well as the potential to be searched. If you've ever been through corrupt border crossings (hello Moc Bai), the last thing you want is to be carrying cash.
- piskov 5y ago
  Also it remains to be seen what will happen with online payments to orgs How one should pay for VPN or VPS, for example
antender 5y ago
Good job, Mastercard (and Visa)! Now all people opposing Putin and trying to gather money for leaflets will have to use state-created MIR instead. Putin will be pleased!
empressplay 5y ago
Putin wants an isolated Russia and he appears confident he can mitigate dissent caused by putting the iron curtain back up. This is just playing into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants, Even if he pulls out of Ukraine tomorrow he will have succeeded in destroying any chance Russia ever had of joining the West, which I’m becoming convinced has always been a key aim of this enterprise. But he can blame the West for all of it now and roll Russia back to being a complete autocracy where citizens have no rights or freedoms at all because Ukraine.
- xdennis 5y ago
  > Putin wants an isolated Russia and he appears confident he can mitigate dissent caused by putting the iron curtain back up. This is just playing into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants, This logic led to embracing China in the hope that it will make them grow more liberal and democratic. Instead it led to US media/sports/gaming industry/etc kowtowing to China and apologizing to them in Mandarin. The only solution is to contain the totalitarian world. > Even if he pulls out of Ukraine tomorrow he will have succeeded in destroying any chance Russia ever had of joining the West This is Russia's doing. We are only reacting. It's beyond ridiculous to blame the west when Putin is invading a free country and threatening us with nukes.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
whiddershins 5y ago
I don’t understand why we are taking actions that by and large will hurt little people the most.
- Rapzid 5y ago
  We are isolating Russia and creating a pressure cooker with the intention to blow the lid off(Putin). West is supplying the heat, and the water is comprised of the Oligarchs and Russian people.
  - stiltzkin 5y ago
    You seriously live in a bubble and not suffering the consequences of a corrupt power you can not choose.
    - Rapzid 5y ago
      Yes.
  - native_samples 5y ago
    You didn't consider the possibility that the lid is too heavy to blow off, and all you're doing is boiling innocent people with no outcome.
    - Rapzid 5y ago
      Who is "you"?
- iguana_lawyer 5y ago
  It probably has something to do with the genocide they’re committing.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    Do you know what genocide means? It's war, it's bad but it's not genocide.
hughrr 5y ago
I wonder if this is why MasterCard went down for several hours in the UK today?
tlogan 5y ago
Excellent! I hope this will at least make Putin less popular. And hopefully he will be replaced with somebody else. The biggest mistake Putin made is that he was under impression that Russia can survive alone and isolated. That might be possible in 60s but not any more.
- postsantum 5y ago
  It doesn't work this way. For decades, media had been talking about how the collective West hates russian people and want Russia go down in flames. Now everybody sees it's true. I predict Putin's rating will be sky high in the upcoming months
  - xdennis 5y ago
    If they stopped invading everyone nobody would hate them.
    - npteljes 5y ago
      That's not true. People pick on others for a myriad of reasons.
  - 331c8c71 5y ago
    can confirm and dont understand why this is downvoted
    - postsantum 5y ago
      The thought that you can't stop the war by banning russian cats from competitions is unsettling, I guess
    - npteljes 5y ago
      Ignorance of other cultures would be my guess.
  - dehrmann 5y ago
    I think you're right, but at some point, people have to ask why the West decided to do this at the same time as the Special Military Operation in Donbas. Then again, no one seems to think Putin bombed Russian cities and blamed it on Chechen rebels to gain power.
partiallypro 5y ago
I honestly don't see how company pull outs that hurt citizens have any negative impact on Putin. Feels like we should be focusing on the oligarchs and Putin himself, not the average citizen.
smeej 5y ago
Punishing civilians for the actions of their dictator is a despicable form of victim-blaming. Russia isn't a democracy. Ordinary people can't oust Putin because the rest of the world makes their lives difficult. This doesn't fix the problem. Punishing his existing subjects because he's invading another country to acquire more subjects is despicable.
- lostmsu 5y ago
  It is your opinion. The fact that Putin is still the authoritarian there is a consequence of people failing to navigate the game theory. You can not fix stupid, but you can change the game for them in a way that ensures specific outcome in presence of certain fallacies.
- mikob 5y ago
  The subjects are the ones in the best position to get rid of Putin. And in a way the subjects are responsible for their leader. Many are fine with the status quo and sitting comfortably at home while Ukrainians are in refugee camps.
  - smeej 5y ago
    The whole context here is that a man has invaded a country and is taking it over despite the very best efforts and extremely firm rejection of its citizens. And yet your argument is that, in an adjacent territory he already controls, the citizens should somehow be more successful at removing him? In what possible way?? Either he is not a dictator and the people of Ukraine shouldn't worry because they'll just be able to "get rid of him" anyway, or he is a dictator and blaming Russian civilians for being under his dictatorial control is victim-blaming. This doesn't work both ways.
EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
Nice. My friend just escaped Russia and left everything behind. Putin outlawed money transfers abroad. His card was the only way he could access funds in his bank account. Now he is stuck with family abroad penniless.
justnotworthit 5y ago
Do we still have moderators here? See you guys later.
Markoff 5y ago
This will really hurt Russians with 100M Mir cards in circulation accepted even by Aliexpress... That's one way to shoot your own foot Visa/MC. I, for one, welcome this, less dependence on Visa/MC, the better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_(payment_system) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_(payment_system)

257 points by bradvl 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ls15 5y ago
What else are they supposed to do?
- unpopularq88 5y ago
  - qznc 5y ago
    They worked for years towards becoming a EU member. Putin wants to turn them back into a puppet state for "his sovjet union".
    - toyg 5y ago
      The saddest thing really is that it was all for nought - the EU won't allow any new members for a generation or more, as it tries to complete the scalable political and economic infrastructure it already needs to work with 27 unruly members. Be it Ukraine, Turkey, Serbia, or whichever - nobody is getting in anytime soon, and making sacrifices towards that objective is delusional.
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      EU is irrelevant. They could be EU if they agree to neutrality and let go of crimea and donbass. EDIT: EU was explicitly mentioned as irrelevant by putins press-secretary in a recent press conference (he was asked about it).
      - megous 5y ago
        And how exactly would Putin's pupet government work towards joining the EU? It's not like it's a job for normal citizens to work towards that. This requires a desire and a massive effort of a whole government, to achieve. Sounds like a joke.
        331c8c71 5y ago
        Thats not putins problem if whoever ukraine "elects" is not able to join EU or if the EU doesn't take them. No one forbids them.
      - pxtail 5y ago
        (Un)fortunately there is absolutely no credibility anymore behind any messages released by putins govt, they proved multiple times already that they are saying one thing and doing another.
  - reverend_gonzo 5y ago
    I’d rather die a free man than live 100 years under a dictatorship.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  work out a deal with russia (there were 2 rounds of talks and the third will be on 7th)
  - ls15 5y ago
    What has Russia to offer for such a deal, except stopping the violence?
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      russia could help with rebuilding ukraine if sanctions are weakened. Grozny was rebuilt after all.
megous 5y ago
Because they feel they have a chance at a better outcome. If you don't fight there will be no negotiation with Putin. You'll just be rolled over. Negotiation and better position at negotiation table is only possible when you fight the aggressor.

323 5y ago

Visa too: > Visa Suspends All Russia Operations https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.releaseId.18871.html https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.rele... MasterCard/Visa cards issued in Russia will not work abroad, cards issued abroad will not work in Russia. > MasterCard/Visa account for three-quarters of payments in Russia https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/1500239116625379329 https://twitter.com/spectatorindex/status/150023911662537932...

dehrmann 5y ago
Visa. Its everywhere you want to be.
tananaev 5y ago
Interesting that the title says all operations are suspended, but description basically says that foreign cards won't work in Russia and Russian cards work abroad, but does it mean local Russian cards will still work in Russia? That's probably majority of transactions anyway. A bit confused here.
- 323 5y ago
  The MastarCard statement suggests that Russian cards will not work in Russia. > we have decided to suspend our network services in Russia.
  - tananaev 5y ago
    It's phrased very carefully "cards issued by Russian banks will no longer be supported by the Mastercard network", which sounds like they still might work in Russia even if they are not supported by the network. Next sentence is "any Mastercard issued outside of the country will not work at Russian merchants". Why make this clear distinction? Why not just say that all Mastercard won't work in Russia?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]

TarasBob 5y ago

3np 5y ago
...for bitcoin?

samwillis 5y ago

Mirror: https://archive.ph/d5RmA https://archive.ph/d5RmA (was down) Key passage: “ With this action, cards issued by Russian banks will no longer be supported by the Mastercard network. And, any Mastercard issued outside of the country will not work at Russian merchants or ATMs.” I don’t believe it’s clear that cards issued in Russia are not still being accepted within Russia. Which is what I believe Visa is still doing: “ all transactions initiated with Visa cards issued in Russia will no longer work outside the country and any Visa cards issued by financial institutions outside of Russia will no longer work within the Russian Federation.” https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.releaseId.18871.html https://usa.visa.com/about-visa/newsroom/press-releases.rele... If MasterCard is matching Visa it’s effectively cross border transactions that have stopped - not withdraw access to Russian issued cards within Russia. If they have withdrawn access to Russian cards within Russia it’s going to put enormous pressure on Russian citizens. Visa and Mastercard apparently have 73% of the credit card market in Russia. This could be the type of pressure need for citizens to push back at the Russian administration (not that they aren’t already).

3np 5y ago
So individuals who recently left Russia out of fear for the regime and may be in very vulnerable positions have potentially unexpectedly lost access to their funds until they can sort that out... Meanwhile, for The Real Russians, business as usual. This looks like theatre hurting the wrong people.
- alkonaut 5y ago
  Anyone who ran across the border and hoped to get their savings from inside Russia once out were naive (or more likely just in a hurry). This is one of few good use cases for cryptocurrency.
  - throw-ru-938 5y ago
    Getting hard currency in Russia right now is a long and difficult process, there's a massive shortage.

savant_penguin 5y ago

"We’re undergoing site maintenance. But don’t worry — as there’s no impact to your ability to make Mastercard purchases or payments" Unless you're Russian I guess. As much as I enjoy the act this could backfire as a show of the tremendous power these companies have: shutting down credit card payments will likely impact large portions of online payments. But at the same time every extra inefficiency in the Russian economy could translate into less bullets going to kill Ukrainians

youngNed 5y ago
> shutting down credit card payments will likely impact large portions of online payments. I can't think of a way to reply to this without being trite or insulting, but genuinely, what do you think is the point of a sanction?
- cgio 5y ago
  I think the point the gp was making was with regards to sanctions from private entities. My note here is that while the scale of private entities sanctions currently is novel, they themselves are not, e.g. boycotts have happened in the past many times.
- savant_penguin 5y ago
  My first reaction was "this is going to force a bunch of people to use cash again" But the, maybe obvious to you not to me, consequence is that this could shutdown the entire online marketplace in Russia (at least in the short term) Also I'm not sure I'd call it a sanction since it's coming from a private company, not a government. If I were any country right now I'd also take it as a warning to not depend on Mastercard or Visa given the immense power they hold
  - youngNed 5y ago
    This thread has been a real eye opener for me. I'm not sure that many people realise what economic sanctions mean, as I replied to someone else on this thread: "As a result of sanction orders, we have blocked multiple financial institutions from the Mastercard payment network. We will continue to work with regulators in the days ahead to abide fully by our compliance obligations as they evolve." Source: https://www.mastercard.com/news/press/2022/february/mastercard-statement/ https://www.mastercard.com/news/press/2022/february/masterca... But I'm amazed, why do you think a company would leave money on the table?? PR? Virtue signaling? Really??

systemvoltage 5y ago

Do companies of this size already have the infrastructure built, a kill switch of the sorts, to turn off an entire country’s payment system? I’m thinking not just technology wise, but also things like existing subscriptions and contractual legal stuff between countries, customers, etc. It seems like a monumental undertaking to integrate payment systems for a new country, turning it off seems even more impressive.

lil_dispaches 5y ago
I don't think this is act of war protest. These corporation know the inside score, they help write the narrative. I predict these companies are giving up Russia for good. This is a signal of a long term shift in world order and these corporate boards know it, because they engineer it with policies and propaganda.
- chasd00 5y ago
  Accenture and McKinsey both closed up shop in Russia. For those two to leave money on the table means there’s definitely something big happening behind the scenes.
  - lil_dispaches 5y ago
    Ya, and the oil companies too are not simply pausing, but leaving large investments in the field.
tmp_anon_22 5y ago
Sanctions aren't new, any sufficiently large international company likely has dealt with this before. And it doesn't happen all at once, you start by turning off new registrants, then you go through records of existing entities that need to be turned off and turn them off, then you continue to watch for whatever you missed.
- lil_dispaches 5y ago
  Visa and Mastercard are not issuing "sanctions", nobody told them to cut off Russia, they are willfully making calculated business decisions.

mananaysiempre 5y ago

As far as I can tell, this will mainly have an impact on people trying to leave, because payments within the country will still work (if badly because the substitute system, NSPK, is shoddy), but the Russian government doesn’t allow crossing the border with more than the equivalent of 10k USD in cash (since several days ago) and most other money transfer companies are refusing service as well. So, for example, previously locals employed by companies that valiantly declared their condemnation of Putin by shutting down their Russian offices had three choices: work for a company that does support Putin, leave, or starve. Now it’s just work for a Putin supporter or starve. (Not entirely true because at least some of those companies put their employees on paid leave for now, but that’s still probably what it will ultimately boil down to in the relatively near future. Passenger planes being arrested in foreign airports because of sudden lease termination make for a similar one-two punch combo together with Putin’s closure of the land border in 2020: it’s getting very hard—and expensive—to physically leave even if you don’t want anything to do with this [15-year jail sentence] and never did.) Good job..?

postsantum 5y ago
Your understanding is correct. It's illegal to be opposition inside of the country, so now people who would otherwise be leaving now, are stuck inside
jimbob45 5y ago
As other threads have stated, outbound Russian flights have been permanently shut down beyond a few weeks from now (and all flights are full). It doesn’t seem to be the case that exit is an option for many Russians, money or not.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lostwords 5y ago
  It's somewhat true, but there are still options, actually. Russian carriers canceled their flights, but some foreign carriers are still flying. It's quite expensive now, of course, and not very convenient, but if you desperately want to leave and you have some money, it's doable.

grandpoobah 5y ago

Call me insane, but this feels insane. It would be one thing if Visa/Mastercard were being forced to do this, but for them to take it upon themselves to "pick a side" during a global conflict feels really wrong.

forty 5y ago
Why? Companies are owned, run and used by humans, and humans have feelings and conscience, and they sometimes use them to make decisions.
ur-whale 5y ago
> but for them to take it upon themselves they're not. they do what they're told.
conk 5y ago
It’s not picking sides it’s a result of economic sanctions. How are financial transactions going to clear when Visa/MC can’t transfer money in/out of Russia.
- piskov 5y ago
  Sanctions were imposed on 6(?) banks, not on entire banking system. Even swift works with any other russian bank.
youngNed 5y ago
I don't think you are insane, I do however think you should probably read up on what 'sanctions' means
toyg 5y ago
They picked sides in the past too, ask one Mr. Assange how he knows.
pmalynin 5y ago
No, its not insane for them to do this -- in fact the opposite. Every person has to make the decision for themselves in the end, this goes all the way to presidents and political leaders. You will either stand by, profit and watch, as a neo-Nazi regime rapes a country -- or you will take a stance. When this is all over people will be asking: Where were you and what did you do when the war was happening?

ghiculescu 5y ago

I’m not pro crypto or pro Russia, but the fact that it’s so easy to lose ones freedom to transact[0] (regardless of the specific merits here) is troubling. [0] https://mobile.twitter.com/punk6529/status/1494444624630403083 https://mobile.twitter.com/punk6529/status/14944446246304030...

rootusrootus 5y ago
Hasn't really been a problem for other countries to avoid this problem, so I'm not sure how worried I ought to be. Like so many things, I'll worry about trends when there is a trend.
- cm2187 5y ago
  It has been a problem. There is pretty much a duopoly, look at the difficulties you face if they disapprove your business or politics. More competition is long overdue. But we are testing modern finance by weaponising the financial system. The most problematic move I think has been freezing the central bank's reserve. It might achieve the short term gain of hurting Russia, but what about the long term impact on the trust in holding foreign currencies?
  - cgio 5y ago
    I anticipate lots of gold moving physically over the next few months.
    - theshrike79 5y ago
      Pretty much all of Russia's liquid cash is in physical gold and bills, it'll be interesting to see how that's getting moved and used.
    - stubish 5y ago
      Unfortunately for Russia, if it does need to significantly dip into it's gold reserves it is likely to crash that market. I think China will get to negotiate a sweet discount to convert it to Yuan, if for no other reason than China seems to be the only place the gold can be laundered at the moment. I think I heard about $US 180bn worth?

sonicggg 5y ago

This seems like a PR play. What's the end goal of these sanctions? Haven't seen them able to topple governments in Cuba, Venezuela, Iran, North Korea, etc. They are even less likely to work with Russia.

Chyzwar 5y ago
It is not sanctions directly, It is change of perception on Russia. In one week, Russia become toxic economy and no longer viable to invest. This is much worse than sanctions. This might not topple Putin, but it would bankrupt Russia in the next 3 months.

textech 5y ago

I guess this will just accelerate adoption of China's UnionPay or their homegrown MIR.

wrycoder 5y ago
And their social credit technology.
dehrmann 5y ago
One unintended outcome of this could be Russia depending in China. It's too big to be a puppet state, but China would be the one calling the shots.
- tsol 5y ago
  China is certainly thinking about expanding their influence right now. I don't know exactly to what extent they can do that, but I'm sure they can see the opportunity for what it is. They've been expanding their influence in the Eastern world for some time

nickysielicki 5y ago

It's hard for me to imagine a scenario where these sanctions (not just Mastercard and Visa, but all of it as a whole) are reduced without a total regime change in Russia. This is becoming a massive divestment, and I'm not sure it's a great idea. There's no guarantee that what replaces Putin is going to be more Western and not reactionary. For every Russian that is cosmopolitan and globalist, there's a dozen Russians in small villages that are True Believers and will see this foreign pressure for what it is: replacing a Russian president that, at least in their mind, they put there. Even if you assume that it's going to be a democratic and Western government that rises from the ashes, I think the timescale for this is in years, not months, and I think that the impact on the average citizen in The West is going to be massive while we wait that out. I paid north of $80 last night for 18 gallons of fuel, and it's only going to get worse. In Europe, they're staring down the barrel of a significant energy crisis next winter. Energy is everything: it's fertilizer and it's heat. And this is all on the tail of record inflation and a shaky economy. Hot take: I think this is going to backfire and we're going to see destabilization in Europe and America before Putin is ousted. War tends to be a boon for the economy in the West, but I see good reason why this time could be different.

johnny22 5y ago
>> There's no guarantee that what replaces Putin is going to be more Western and not reactionary. Who is assuming that's what is going to happen?
risyachka 5y ago
They are not true believers. They will believe what is on the TV. If you start running new propaganda - they will start believing it. And you don't need a western-oriented government in russia. All that is needed is to remove one psycho, after that things will mostly go back to normal after russia compensates all damages and returns all territories.
908B64B197 5y ago
> Energy is everything: it's fertilizer and it's heat. And this is all on the tail of record inflation and a shaky economy. There's a reason we tolerated the Saudi bombing Yemen.

throw-ru-938 5y ago

Since the war started, and the repressions inside Russia tightened (e.g. news stations being taken off air for calling this war a "war"), a lot of us Russians including myself have been fleeing the country, fearing for our safety. Now Visa/Mastercard have left us all without access to money. If I were more of a conspiracy type, I'd say they and Putin are on the same side now.

xdennis 5y ago
> If I were more of a conspiracy type, I'd say they and Putin are on the same side now. Is MasterCard is bombing civilians?

colesantiago 5y ago

Please do not use crypto no matter how tempting it is to join the Ponzi scheme as I said before and many other critics like Stephen Diehl (@smdiehl), Molly White (@molly0xFFF) (@web3isgreat creator) and more reliable critics. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30512981 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30512981 Please try use Paypal with a VPN or in another country, Moneygram, Western Union or use cash, better yet use Transferwise (Wise) or buy gift cards to get your money out.

prostoalex 5y ago
The motivation to trade from rubles to crypto is obvious. But if you're holding crypto today, what's the motivation to exit and assume a large ruble position?
- notch656a 5y ago
  This is the question I've been asking. At first glance, one may think it's a great idea to go long crypto right now. But with RUB being radioactive, it's hard to imagine how RUB-crypto pairs can possibly have much impact on the market.
nickysielicki 5y ago
As an American, I'm tempted to put everything I own into Monero.
- colesantiago 5y ago
  Monero isn't really private or secure and was a subject to a 51% attack so this is a moot point.
  - analyte123 5y ago
    Can you elaborate on what makes Monero not private or secure?
    - 5y ago

pjkundert 5y ago

Regardless of what side you're on -- this is a wake-up call. If you ever, as a civilian, get on the "wrong" side of any local or global event: you get to freeze on a park bench. Your keys, your coins. Their keys, their coins. Anyone who is paying attention, globally, is now realizing that they need to begin moving at least some assets into cryptocurrencies, in their own, personal accounts. The problem is: BIP-39 is a train-wreck, from any practical security and reliability perspective. Basically, any "normal" person setting up a Crypto account w/ BIP-39 seed recovery is just gonna lose their money. I estimate 10% a year probability of total account loss: probably greater. Use SLIP-39: https://slip39.kundert.ca/macos https://slip39.kundert.ca/macos. Set up an account. Fund it. Get this done. Because: you're next...

chrsw 5y ago
It's not a wake up call for me. This is in line with expectations. If the economic sanctions don't work I assume the next phase is cyber war at scale. If that doesn't work, traditional hot war.
- empressplay 5y ago
  NATO will not get involved in Ukraine militarily ever. Period. This isn’t a stage, this is all there is. Accept it already.
  - chrsw 5y ago
    Why would Putin stop at Ukraine?
    - 331c8c71 5y ago
      because he's not expanding russia. hes not letting ukraine to join nato. Check john mearsheimer for an understanding how putin thinks
      - chrsw 5y ago

ZoomZoomZoom 5y ago

You'd think letting people transfer money outside of the sanctioned country is in accord to the stated goals of sanctions. Is this move really practical, or just a showing MC and Visa are politically in line with the rest of the businesses?

dgoldstein0 5y ago
I'd imagine in a lot of cases the payment network doesn't know if you are moving your own money, or paying for something - the latter which could benefit Russia or a Russian company. E.g. if was Russian and paying Google for Google docs for my Russia based business - I think that might be disallowed by the current sanctions? I suppose I'm trying to say - the payment providers see where the cash is going, but not what you are getting in return. Without that visibility it's hard to more selectively ban transactions.

artdigital 5y ago

I have a Russian friend living abroad for a longer period of time and paying his day to day expenses with savings through credit cards. They all stopped working and he has no way to pay for anything anymore. I get why it’s done but it’s still sad to see people that have nothing to do with this situation get hit like this

Symbiote 5y ago
My colleague's brother in Ukraine has had his day to day life interrupted by Russians dropping bombs on the city.
- azth 5y ago
  What does this have to do with the post you replied to? Two wrongs don't make a right.
  - disiplus 5y ago
    no, but it puts it into perspective.
  - xdennis 5y ago
    It does when one is caused by the other.
    - marrone12 5y ago
      Russian citizens did not cause this war...
      - krn 5y ago
        You could say the same about the German citizens and WWII.
        drdaeman 5y ago
        One could, yes. As far as I'm aware, even a matter of collective guilt (which is related but different from causation) is not exactly unanimously agreed upon between renown philosophers. And just to be clear - I'm not saying it's true or false (heck, I have very mixed feelings), I'm saying it's arguable.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

lostwords 5y ago

It's the first action against Russia that made me angry. It's so stupid and wrong at the same time. So, in Russia all the cards will work, nothing is changed here (despite the statements of Visa and Mastercard). Cards issued by Russian banks would stop work abroad. The same is true for any foreign cards in Russia. So, foreigners in Russia are fucked. People who left Russia in a hurry because they didn't want to be part of this craziness or because it's dangerous for them to stay (i.e. they are known protesters against the regime) are fucked. Nice move. Simply genius.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sneak 5y ago
Political/humanitarian circumstances aside, this is a good reminder to all of us, everywhere, that 100% reliance on centralized electronic payment systems is risky because they have rare but total failure modes. ALWAYS carry and travel with cash, no matter what. ALWAYS keep enough cash hidden in your home to cover a month or more of expenses.
- DaiPlusPlus 5y ago
  > ALWAYS carry and travel with cash, no matter what. Funny, that's the exact opposite of the advice I hear to only travel with only petty-cash and rely on cards instead, so if you're mugged/robbed or simply misplace your wallet you won't be SOL far from home.
  - latchkey 5y ago
    Exactly. Never mind that as you cross borders, there are legal limits to the amounts you can carry as well as the potential to be searched. If you've ever been through corrupt border crossings (hello Moc Bai), the last thing you want is to be carrying cash.
piskov 5y ago
Also it remains to be seen what will happen with online payments to orgs How one should pay for VPN or VPS, for example

antender 5y ago

Good job, Mastercard (and Visa)! Now all people opposing Putin and trying to gather money for leaflets will have to use state-created MIR instead. Putin will be pleased!

empressplay 5y ago

Putin wants an isolated Russia and he appears confident he can mitigate dissent caused by putting the iron curtain back up. This is just playing into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants, Even if he pulls out of Ukraine tomorrow he will have succeeded in destroying any chance Russia ever had of joining the West, which I’m becoming convinced has always been a key aim of this enterprise. But he can blame the West for all of it now and roll Russia back to being a complete autocracy where citizens have no rights or freedoms at all because Ukraine.

xdennis 5y ago
> Putin wants an isolated Russia and he appears confident he can mitigate dissent caused by putting the iron curtain back up. This is just playing into his hands and giving him exactly what he wants, This logic led to embracing China in the hope that it will make them grow more liberal and democratic. Instead it led to US media/sports/gaming industry/etc kowtowing to China and apologizing to them in Mandarin. The only solution is to contain the totalitarian world. > Even if he pulls out of Ukraine tomorrow he will have succeeded in destroying any chance Russia ever had of joining the West This is Russia's doing. We are only reacting. It's beyond ridiculous to blame the west when Putin is invading a free country and threatening us with nukes.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

whiddershins 5y ago

I don’t understand why we are taking actions that by and large will hurt little people the most.

Rapzid 5y ago
We are isolating Russia and creating a pressure cooker with the intention to blow the lid off(Putin). West is supplying the heat, and the water is comprised of the Oligarchs and Russian people.
- stiltzkin 5y ago
  You seriously live in a bubble and not suffering the consequences of a corrupt power you can not choose.
  - Rapzid 5y ago
    Yes.
- native_samples 5y ago
  You didn't consider the possibility that the lid is too heavy to blow off, and all you're doing is boiling innocent people with no outcome.
  - Rapzid 5y ago
    Who is "you"?
iguana_lawyer 5y ago
It probably has something to do with the genocide they’re committing.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  Do you know what genocide means? It's war, it's bad but it's not genocide.

hughrr 5y ago

I wonder if this is why MasterCard went down for several hours in the UK today?

tlogan 5y ago

Excellent! I hope this will at least make Putin less popular. And hopefully he will be replaced with somebody else. The biggest mistake Putin made is that he was under impression that Russia can survive alone and isolated. That might be possible in 60s but not any more.

postsantum 5y ago
It doesn't work this way. For decades, media had been talking about how the collective West hates russian people and want Russia go down in flames. Now everybody sees it's true. I predict Putin's rating will be sky high in the upcoming months
- xdennis 5y ago
  If they stopped invading everyone nobody would hate them.
  - npteljes 5y ago
    That's not true. People pick on others for a myriad of reasons.
- 331c8c71 5y ago
  can confirm and dont understand why this is downvoted
  - postsantum 5y ago
    The thought that you can't stop the war by banning russian cats from competitions is unsettling, I guess
  - npteljes 5y ago
    Ignorance of other cultures would be my guess.
- dehrmann 5y ago
  I think you're right, but at some point, people have to ask why the West decided to do this at the same time as the Special Military Operation in Donbas. Then again, no one seems to think Putin bombed Russian cities and blamed it on Chechen rebels to gain power.

partiallypro 5y ago

I honestly don't see how company pull outs that hurt citizens have any negative impact on Putin. Feels like we should be focusing on the oligarchs and Putin himself, not the average citizen.

smeej 5y ago

Punishing civilians for the actions of their dictator is a despicable form of victim-blaming. Russia isn't a democracy. Ordinary people can't oust Putin because the rest of the world makes their lives difficult. This doesn't fix the problem. Punishing his existing subjects because he's invading another country to acquire more subjects is despicable.

lostmsu 5y ago
It is your opinion. The fact that Putin is still the authoritarian there is a consequence of people failing to navigate the game theory. You can not fix stupid, but you can change the game for them in a way that ensures specific outcome in presence of certain fallacies.
mikob 5y ago
The subjects are the ones in the best position to get rid of Putin. And in a way the subjects are responsible for their leader. Many are fine with the status quo and sitting comfortably at home while Ukrainians are in refugee camps.
- smeej 5y ago
  The whole context here is that a man has invaded a country and is taking it over despite the very best efforts and extremely firm rejection of its citizens. And yet your argument is that, in an adjacent territory he already controls, the citizens should somehow be more successful at removing him? In what possible way?? Either he is not a dictator and the people of Ukraine shouldn't worry because they'll just be able to "get rid of him" anyway, or he is a dictator and blaming Russian civilians for being under his dictatorial control is victim-blaming. This doesn't work both ways.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago

Nice. My friend just escaped Russia and left everything behind. Putin outlawed money transfers abroad. His card was the only way he could access funds in his bank account. Now he is stuck with family abroad penniless.

justnotworthit 5y ago

Do we still have moderators here? See you guys later.

Markoff 5y ago

This will really hurt Russians with 100M Mir cards in circulation accepted even by Aliexpress... That's one way to shoot your own foot Visa/MC. I, for one, welcome this, less dependence on Visa/MC, the better. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_(payment_system) https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_(payment_system)