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The cold hard truth about electric vehicles in winter

171 points by sofixa 5y ago

thesuitonym 5y ago
A summary of the article could be: SOMETIMES electric vehicles are not as efficient, so ALWAYS electric vehicles should not be used.
jleyank 5y ago
Fwiw, we’ve had some years when it didn’t break freezing for months at a time (Quebec/Ontario). During those years, it hit temps that are the same in c or f a few days, and was usually -20c or so at night. So I guess EV’s need a “deluxe Canadian battery” or lugs where the dogs could be attached? I’ve seen them about, but then I saw Lambos trying to drive in the snow in Montreal. Commuter vehicles for those with a good charger in the garage.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  Many people enjoys EVs in extreme cold, you just either don’t do winter road trips in them, or live with lots of charging stops when you do (or wear a coat and dont heat the cabin much!) A 250 mile range cut in half is still more than enough for daily use.
jmclnx 5y ago
This is one of my major concerns about EV, over the years I had asked about this very issue and all I got was "range will be slightly less" or "no impact". So I decided to stick with fossil fuels. Getting stuck in the middle of no where in the winder is no fun where I live. I hope this hits the mainstream press, these days, seems all vehicles are only designed for use in Southern Calif. >AAA found the loss in driving range could be as high as 41% with the heater on full blast. My main concern was with the heater, in gas engines, heat is "free", I always thought the heater would be a big drain. Finally someone did some studies.
- adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
  when I look at this chat, I see that a properly designed ev loses less than 2% performance in cold weather.
  - gameswithgo 5y ago
    yep, though below freezing it will get worse
- ridgered4 5y ago
  I actually think the same thing (designed for Southern California only) about self driving cars. My car comes with a bunch of pointless sensors that beep nonsense at me incessantly until I give up and disable them. The lane assist goes bananas while I dodge ample potholes or drive around road construction, so I turn that off. But even the panic breaking constantly complains it is no longer working (indicated by an irritating beep) because some combination of salt, road splash and maybe sun has disabled it. Heck, the backup camera requires frequent wipe downs due to salt otherwise I can't see anything out of it but a muddy blur. I've never owned a self driving car, but I suspect they'll just throw up their hands and tell you to deal with it in the event of any inclement weather. Which would be about half the time around here!
- willis936 5y ago
  >Finally someone did some studies. I recall reading an EPA study from the mid 2000s that compared the total fossil fuel emissions from gasoline, hybrid, and hypothetical electric vehicles. They included power usage for battery heaters and even the emissions from fossil fuel heaters in all electric heaters. I can't find the study now.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  Did you take the time to read the articles? For many of the evs the range hit WAS minimal
- pmorici 5y ago
  Your concern is vastly inflated and misplaced. The car always tells you an accurate estimate of remaining range whatever the temperature. Also, the Tesla navigation automatically computes charge stops in real time and ads them to the navigation it makes it incredibly slick.
anon9384929 5y ago
Can someone explain this? I always thought batteries and electric motors were more efficient in (relatively) colder environments?
- vladvasiliu 5y ago
  Probably only up to a point. I ride a motorcycle and carry my phone in a pocket that's outside the thermal lining. I absolutely see the difference in how much it discharges when it's ~5ºC vs above 15ºC. And I'm thinking of the trip to my parents' house, so same duration, speed, and phone station locations.
- tuatoru 5y ago
  It's explained in the article. Batteries work by means of chemical reactions, which go faster at higher temperatures. Vehicle batteries are designed for the same sorts of temperatures that humans like, say 10 to 30 °C. In cold weather, energy has to be taken from the batteries to heat them up so that they work better. More energy is taken to heat the cabin of the vehicle for the occupants' comfort. This reduces the energy left in the battery for moving the vehicle.
  - anon9384929 5y ago
    Thank you! Is it safe to say you want the wires transmitting the power to be cold, ideally, but the battery itself not necessarily so? (Thinking about the electric grid, etc here as well.)
    - xxs 5y ago
      Indeed, pretty much any conductor (that carries high current) would be more efficient (lower resistance) at lower temperatures. So the losses in the cables would be lower. However, that's a tiny part compared to the temperature needed for the battery chemistry to be efficient on its own.
- mxuribe 5y ago
  I would guess at some temperatures, chilly wind acts to cool any motors, well motors that move and prouce heat from their actions...But at some lower temperatures, stuff physically just slows down movement. I think the article states why here... > ...Cold temperatures slow down the chemical reactions in battery cells, which saps range and increases charging times.
twbarber 5y ago
This makes battery the primary differentiator for me when I evaluated EVs. As a resident of Vermont, where there aren’t a ton of super chargers the the winters were harsh, range is important. Higher rated mileage in fair weather carries over to winter, even with degradation from cold. We opted for a Model Y, and after a year of ownership it’s still offering the best range for a vehicle we’d consider affordable. Would love to see other manufacturers catch up to Tesla in this regard.
dsr_ 5y ago
What a terrible graph. They should have normalized everything as reduction relative to their actual warm-weather range, not relative to 100% of the EPA stated range. Alternatively, they could have discounted the warm weather range to the 100% EPA number. As is, it's a mess. The point of the article is that cold weather reduces range, and an explanatory graph should support that directly.
- kylecordes 5y ago
  I haven't even bothered to read the article because the terrible graph suggests the author has an axe to grind rather than insight to provide. Further, the data shown in the graph most likely reflects differences in how each car was measured, estimated, or marketed. I would love to see a better article somewhere else, where the same range testing is applied to 10 different EVs in the same weather conditions. How far does each of these cars actually go when it is cold and miserable? How far does each go when the weather is perfect? Then put that on the graph.
gameswithgo 5y ago
Newer Teslas with the heat pump do great in 30deg F temps, as the graph shows, but for extreme cold like 0 and below they suffer similar to the other cars, as heat pump efficiency can no longer win at that point.
- falcolas 5y ago
  Heat pumps can work below -20F, but it does require specific models built to work in those low temps. AKA, I doubt we’ll see them in cars designed in Cali anytime soon.
- adam 5y ago
  2021 Tesla Y owner here. Midwest location. Took a 150 mile trip yesterday. Temps were 38F. Left my house fully charged at 330mi range, battery topped off. Arrived with 100mi estimated range left. On the way home later that evening, temps were 28F. Left again almost fully topped off with estimated range of 310mi after visiting a supercharger. Arrived home with estimated 70mi of range left.
- rconti 5y ago
  I was surprised to see the Model S and Model X doing as well as the (presumably new) 3 in the chart. Do the S and X have the heat pump? I know it didn't make it to the 3 until ~2021 (ours is a 2018).
jcynix 5y ago
I still wonder, why nobody builds EVs combined with a small Stirling motor. Such a hybrid could charge a car while parked (if needed) and warm up batteries in the cold too. It would make EVs much more attractive for me, until charging infrastructure is more widely deploid, and allowing for a more gradual move away from oil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  They're too big and heavy per horsepower compared to regular ICE. Also, if your car can turn on its engine automatically, Stirlings and regular ICE have the same problem - Something is autonomously generating carbon monoxide and consuming your fuel without a human watching it. Spooky.
  - jcynix 5y ago
    Spooky? Just like the stand-by heating in my neighbors conventional car, which automatically starts every morning during winter. :-0
- ben-schaaf 5y ago
  From what I understand the size (and thus weight) of a Stirling engine is inversely proportional to the temperature difference it can run off. Running off 10s of degrees requires a very large engine to have any kind of usable power. Additionally it would at best be a benefit in hot climates where the battery needs cooling. In the cold you want to retain the heat not turn it inefficiently into energy.
- ableal 5y ago
  BMW i3 with range extender did that, don't know what kind of engine. Not quite intended as a PHEV, but I suppose it could run just on the ICE like most current PHEVs Toyota's hybrids (Prius, etc.) have used Atkinson cycle ICE, instead of Otto (one maximizes fuel economy, the other power delivered, I heard).
raverbashing 5y ago
Well, as always, it's a matter of preparation and technology. Tesla uses battery heaters if I'm not mistaken. But IC engines do have problems with the cold. Especially if using Diesel or E85. Most of those issues are now invisible because manufacturers do add fallbacks for those.
steveBK123 5y ago
It's an issue to consider when purchasing an EV and one of the tradeoffs. It varies model to model depending on the presence of heat pump, how the battery cooling/heating system works, etc. I think longterm we will need more detailed mpgE/range numbers for EVs than the old school city/highway EPA numbers. Something like a grid of 30F/70F/90F x 25mph/60mph/75mph x HVAC on/HVAC off. As with many things EV, Tesla is still ahead of the competition on this as you can see on the graph. So Tesla generally has more range to spare (300mi++) relative to competition (mostly 250mi-ish), and then performs better in winter against the stated range. On the plus side if you have a garage you can plug-in at night, schedule charging, pre-warm the cabin, jack up the seat heaters, and pre-condition the battery all on shore power, so cold won't have as much of an impact on the outbound trip. However on the return if the battery is cold soaked you will definitely see an impact. The other major EV difference is the range vs speed curve is different than for gas cars. Gas cars the ICE engine has a certain minimum output which is generally wasted at lower city driving speeds (plus no regen braking unless hybrid). This is why ICE have higher mpg/range on highways. EVs however its mostly a function of wind resistance so the faster you go, the lower the range. This can be quite noticeable at highway speed going 55-60mph vs say 75mph. Porsche Taycan has made some attempts to remediate this with having a 2 speed transmission, but I think we'll see more experimenting in this space.
hefferbub 5y ago
Like most engineering problems, smart design and rigorous execution make a huge difference. Tesla understood that heat management is key to an EV, so they invested in designing a compact and elegant system (Google “octovalve”) to move heat wherever it was helpful to send it. They also use intelligence to allow the car to optimize itself for charging. For example, you can use the Tesla smartphone app to have your car wake itself up and warm or cool both the battery and cabin while still plugged in. And if you use navigation to plan your charging stops, it will automatically precondition the battery pack as you are getting close for optimal charging speed. Most of the cars that performed poorly on that graph were because of shoddy engineering by people who don’t understand the problem space. That’s not a problem with EVs, it’s a problem with bad engineers and management who care about the wrong things.
- nickpeterson 5y ago
  To be fair, they’re also secondary teams with limited budgets. There is a huge difference between having a founder ceo who is actively trying to make the specific product succeed vs being one of 40 teams producing a niche compliance vehicle. I’m honestly shocked how decent the ford/vw/Chevy vehicles are honestly.
  - sixQuarks 5y ago
    What's decent about the Ford/VW/Chevy vehicles? Have you actually test driven them?
    - tapoxi 5y ago
      I have a VW ID4. The infotainment software sucks but can be avoided for the most part by using CarPlay. The comfort, build quality, and turning radius (!!) are all exceptional.
      - darknavi 5y ago
        I swear my Model 3 has a turning radius of a Suburban.
loudmax 5y ago
I've noticed the difference in my plug-in Prius. In summer I had up to a 30 mile battery range. This winter it's been down to at worst 22 miles. Overall, I'm very happy with my plug-in hybrid as my commute to work is about 10 miles each way. If I drive anywhere outside the electric range, the car simply switches to burning gas. I find this car extremely pragmatic. Obviously YMMV.
- ReactiveJelly 5y ago
  Finally! Someone finally said "hybrid", thank you! Every thread about EVs is just like the ~discourse~ about LED traffic lights. [1] "We must stop making pure ICE cars" "But pure EVs aren't ready" "But we must stop making pure ICE cars!" "But pure EVs aren't ready!" Back and forth for _literally 20 years_ in which this little-known Japanese company, Toyota, has been producing an insanely popular line of hybrid sedans called "Prius". [2] I live in a small town and I can't really drive anywhere without seeing at least one Prius. They are everywhere. The used ones are not super-expensive, either, especially compared to a pure EV that needs a bigger battery. Hybrids have been viable for _twenty years_ and people are still debating ICE vs. EV. Plug-in hybrids are now becoming more common, and even big pickup trucks are talking about mild hybridization. And a Prius can go 500 or 600 miles on a tank and then just refuel. A pure EV means no spontaneous road trips. Not a problem with any hybrid. Pure ICE should be out of the picture for 50% of drivers, but we are still using pure EVs as a weak man [3] to pretend that ICE cars are still viable in the post-Prius-plugin era. It makes me a little mad. [1] Technology Connections made a video on this ~discourse~ and how dumb it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius [3] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap... Like the Nissan Leaf. Short range, cheap, bad in winter. No excuse to not talk about Priuses.
  - superkuh 5y ago
    The hybrids aren't going to be much help when the internal combustion bans come in in approximately 2030-2035 for a large fraction of developed countries. People talk about pure EVs because legislation is demanding pure EVs.
tomkaos 5y ago
Some bad surprise with plugin hybrid too. Many hybrid use the gas engine for heating the car, they don't have electric heater. My Santa Fe PHEV will never use the battery under 15C because the gas engine need to always run to stay warm. You can drive hour and come back with a full battery.
- xxs 5y ago
  >PHEV will never use the battery under 15C Seems really harsh, my own hybrid (not Sanra Fe) does that at around -13C.
beardicus 5y ago
I have a Bolt and it definitely loses a lot of range in the winter. I still have plenty of range for what I need to do, so no worries. The surprising part of this graph for me is that I thought all EVs had a similar magnitude of loss in the winter... guess not! Kudos to Tesla on this particular metric.
jillesvangurp 5y ago
Performance degrades of course, but modern EVs are quite popular in e.g. Norway where they drive them well inside arctic conditions. It's not like they stop working under conditions where ICE vehicles definitely face challenges with both range and reliability. Unless your ICE vehicle is plugged in to keep the engine warm when it is parked, it might not even start at all. Those same systems are great for keeping your EV topped up of course. Anything liquid might end up freezing. In an EV that's electrolytes, cooling liquid, brake fluids, etc. Of course, batteries can be heated in an EV and that helps. Simply using them heats them up. That's why many EVs have battery cooling. Also many owners might want to turn up the heat remotely so they enter a nicely warmed car instead of an ice box. That costs energy and range of course. So, it's not all that black and white. But overall, it seems EVs can do well under arctic conditions. All the big vendors test under those conditions. The cold hard reality (to paraphrase the alarmist title) is that it isn't that big of a deal.
- UltraViolence 5y ago
  I'd say a 50% drop in range IS a big deal. There's none of that with ICE vehicles.
  - protomyth 5y ago
    Anyone who owns a hybrid in the northland probably notices a dip in gas mileage in the winter. My Kia Niro loses about 30% of its gas mileage in the winter months in North Dakota. Its enough of a difference that this will be my last hybrid, and I am going to be very careful when I buy an electric. Since, I live in an apartment currently, I don't really have an option for an electric.
    - sjg007 5y ago
      30% isn't that bad. Even petrol cars get similarly bad or worse mileage in the winter. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml Also cars in general as they age gradually get worse mileage.
throwaway11177 5y ago
> 21st century > °F
andbberger 5y ago
of note, the MBTA is about to replace their last few remaining trolleybuses with battery electric buses... which will require diesel heaters
- upofadown 5y ago
  If a heat pump won't work than this might make sense. Better than resistive electrical heat, particularly if the electricity comes from something like coal.
- tapoxi 5y ago
  I'm in Watertown (served by the 71 and 73) and upset about this, but it's probably the right move given the high failure rates during rainstorms and the inability to pass other busses on the road, causing useless congestion.
  - andbberger 5y ago
    definitely not the right move! trolleybuses can easily pass other buses. modern trolleybuses have significant off-wire capability, so if MBTA's maintenance is really so bad they're getting dewired in the rain, operators can be keep driving until they get a chance to rewire the poles, or MBTA can put up pole catchers and they can be rewired automatically. MBTA should be putting up more wires, not taking down what they currently have. Battery buses aren't much cheaper than trolleybuses, if it all (they have significant infrastructure costs too), and in every other aspect trolleybuses are far superior
    - tapoxi 5y ago
      Thanks, I'm not knowledgeable enough about this but if you're also in Belmont/Watertown you might want to bring it up with Sen. Brownsberger, he has a deep knowledge of the MBTA and was the one who advocated for their dedicated lanes.
      - andbberger 5y ago
        not in Boston anymore and they're scheduled to go out of service in 8 days so...
notacoward 5y ago
Very timely for me, as I unexpectedly had to ditch my 14-year-old gas Mini yesterday (frame rot because I live in New England). I was aware of this issue, and had already started doing winter-range calculations as I shop for an all-electric replacement. Mostly this will be an around-town second car so range basically doesn't matter, but the one long trip I might want to do is 160 miles in winter. I was figuring I'd need 200+ nominal to feel comfortable, but the models I'm looking at are above 90% (not bad IMO) so it could be a bit less. Turns out it's a moot point, though, because there's basically nothing except some Porsches and Audis that are above 170 but below 215. FWIW, here's a handy table for anyone else in a similar shopping situation. https://insideevs.com/news/566954/bev-epa-range-comparison-february2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/566954/bev-epa-range-comparison-f...
- ChoGGi 5y ago
  > frame rot because I live in New England If you mean salt, then you can get a mechanic/etc to spray an undercoating reach year to keep the rust away.
  - notacoward 5y ago
    I've been doing that, but it still happened. Same with my wife's last car, though less excusable in that case because it was only half as old. Just one of the things we have to put up with, I guess.
punnerud 5y ago
If you select your stop for charging on the Tesla screen it will preheat the battery so the charging go way faster, especially during winter (compared to not heating the battery)
altacc 5y ago
It's interesting that some of the cars with large differences between cold & warm have there EPA ranges closer to the the cold temperature range, whilst others are closer to the warm range. It's as if some manufacturers have chosen the lower range for their EPAs, so will be less disappointing and appear better in warm weather than promised. I would expect consistency but this is one the flaws of comparing cars specifications: there isn't a truly accurate and constant way to measure ranges that consumers can trust (the same is true for MPG estimates for ICEs).
joosters 5y ago
Source for the data: https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss - which is IMO a better report than the Axios news article.
dahfizz 5y ago
This is another example of how far ahead tesla is with their battery and electrical systems. Which is kind of frustrating for me, because I want an EV and Tesla sucks at pretty much everything else. Their cars are super expensive to repair, and its impossible to get parts yourself. The build quality is poor. The cars (except for the model s, maybe) are ugly. But they absolutely destroy the competition on a technical level.
- muzika 5y ago
  For many years now you can buy all parts except some that are “restricted” to shops, and even those you can usually find on eBay or junk yards. Teslas are not super expensive to repair if you compare them to BMW instead of Honda Civic. And they are much more reliable than BMWs and require almost no maintenance. Source: I repaired about 10 teslas.
captainmuon 5y ago
I have actually worked on a battery system, but still have problems understanding wrapping my head around how the temperature dependance works. Do (Li-ion) batteries store less charge (Coulombs) when charging cold? Or is it when discharging cold, they convert some of the energy to waste heat? Or do the same charges translate to less energy (e.g. less voltage difference at same current) when the battery is discharged cold? Maybe someone can give a good explanation, I found it hard to get a straigt answer :-)
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  It is in general the reaction speed which results in a lower voltage. But I believe the exact reason is poorly understood. Seems to affect all batteries and lithium-ion batteries are no exception. Most people I know report that their formerly 350km vehicles only drive 250km if it is really cold outside. Of course you also have heating withing the cabin that is not an insignificant factor. So cars perform worse, but they don't completely break down. Although I had it happen with a company car once when it was very cold outside. Display told me to stop as soon as I can. I did so and the car went completely dead. Left it there, the next day was considerably warmer and the car worked normally again.
SimonPStevens 5y ago
I recently bought a second hand Nissan Leaf (2015 model, so the battery is already 7 years old), and I have to say my experience with it has been fantastic, even through the winter. The range is about 70-80 miles of general town driving 30-40mph in the UK winter, so cold, but not freezing most of the time. The range doesn't seem to be noticeable different between warm and cold days. Average temp is probably around 5c. The range does drop noticeable on motorways. I haven't done a proper test, but I suspect it's probably only good for 40ish miles at 70mph. As a second car it's brilliant. It's saved us a load on petrol doing the local trips, school runs, short commute, etc. Even with the current high power prices in the UK. It very much depends on what you plan to use it for, but if your usage profile fits what the car does well, it's a really nice car. I plan to do a proper blog post at some point analyzing some data on it. Maybe after the summer and I'll see if the range improves.
- bombcar 5y ago
  How much did it run you, and did you consider a newer model?
  - SimonPStevens 5y ago
    £9800. 28,000 miles on the clock. Battery still reporting 12 out of 12 for health. I did look at a few other used models, one a couple of years newer, but a lot of miles on the clock and quite a bit more expensive. This one I got just had the best balance of price, age, condition, etc of the cars I saw. I briefly looked at new ones, but prices started at around £27k, and I didn't really want to spend that much. I tend not to buy new cars.
- bestouff 5y ago
  I have a Renault Zoé, and live in the French Alps (1000m altitude) with harsh winters, and so far this little car has been marvelous. I wouldn't go back to an ICE car for my regular commute.
  - SimonPStevens 5y ago
    I looked at a Zoe too, it's an equally nice car that fits the exact same niche for short range or town driving. It mostly just came down to the fact the particular leaf I found was the best balance on price vs age for what was on the market at the time. I'd have likely been just as happy with a Zoe had I found a good one.
btbuildem 5y ago
What would be interesting to see is the balance of energy cost for battery heaters. Is it better to use some electricity to warm up the battery just slightly to get more power out of it for longer? There's probably a sweet spot there. I imagine similar with cooling, except there the "end of range" scenario is more.. dramatic.
mbbutler 5y ago
I have to question the accuracy of the numbers presented in this article. I own a Chevy Bolt in Maine and the figure listed in this article is far off from what I have experienced over several winters here. At a temp of 20 F my bolt loses ~20% of its range from the EPA estimate, going from 236 to about 190miles of range. Conversely, my friend owns a Tesla Model 3 up here and his range degrades severely during winter on the order of 30%. edit: He owns a Model 3, not a Model Y.
- mbbutler 5y ago
  Replying to my own comment with an update. The temperature today in my area varied between 9 F at 9AM and 25 F at 3PM. My girlfriend happened to need to drive to several different towns/cities for her work so her total trip was 135 miles. Our Bolt says it has 50 miles left. I only charge to 90% and just received a new 259 mile range battery as part of the Bolt recall. So the EPA range of my Bolt at 90% charge is 233 miles. If we take the Bolt's 50 mile left range claim at face value (which I have found to be overly pessimistic), then it got 185 miles of range today out of the expected 233, or a ~20% drop in EPA stated range. So I just don't believe the numbers provided in the linked article. They are completely out of whack with my every day experience owning a Bolt through three winters in Maine.
jameshart 5y ago
And turning on your AC in summer will impact your gas mileage. And some gas cars will have trouble even starting at low temperatures. It’s not a shock that car performance is weather dependent.
gwbas1c 5y ago
I do most of my long trips in my Model 3 in the winter, to go skiing. I usually do ~300 miles round-trip in a day. Here's what I do: I leave my car plugged in overnight, in the "normal" charging mode. While I get dressed, I turn on extended range mode and turn the heat on. This warms up both the car and the battery. It usually takes me about ~20 minutes to get dressed. I stop at a Supercharger to use the bathroom. If I can, I grab meals at a Supercharger. Most of the time, I don't need to "wait" while the car charges, usually because I'm in the bathroom or waiting for food prep. If I do need to wait, it's usually about 5 minutes. Thus, total stopping time is about as much as a gas car. The only limitation is that there's waaaay less Superchargers than gas stations. The only time I really had to wait a long time at a Supercharger was when I went to a ski area with a charger, and because it was early season, there were no lifts / shuttles to the parking lot with the charger. (Otherwise I'd have been able to drive home without charging.) Edits: I have a 2018 long-range. It got a total of 307 miles new, now that it's 3 years old it's total range is ~280. (This is very close to the 2022 standard range, BTW.) I get about 2/3rds of stated range in cold weather. I drive with the heat at 68, and I use the but warmer for a few minutes. I try not to exceed 75MPH on 65MPH roads, or 80MPH on 70MPH roads. Where I drive, often traffic exceeds the posted speed limit.
- monkmartinez 5y ago
  > The only limitation is that there's waaaay less Superchargers than gas stations. Hopefully this changes with time, but it is a GIANT limitation. Skiing around Arizona I have noticed all the chargers have EV's parked in them. I want to buy a used BMW i3, but the convenience factor is still a ways off for me. My Prius gets awesome mileage and I run the heater full blast in the winter and A/C full blast in the summer. I have half a mind to put a giant DIY battery in the trunk. Wire in a dead man switch of some kind and run on pure 18650's around town... gonna flirt with the idea a bit more. My DIY electric bike has probably given me a bit more confidence in the area than I need, but YOLO!
  - donkeyd 5y ago
    > Hopefully this changes with time Looking at Europe, nearly every gas station is starting to get a fast charger installed (along major roads, at least). A couple of years ago there were waiting lines at super chargers during the yearly migration to the Alps, but I haven't seen any similar stories this year.
boringg 5y ago
This is a bit of a strange article coming from Axios who does a lot of coverage on the greener side of the future. The cold hard truth: weaker product offerings (see the domestic US companies outside Tesla) have very poor response to colder weather all other companies have accounted for it and the drop off is pretty minimal. Thanks Axios for wasting our time and pointing out that if you buy an inferior product expect and inferior outcome under the guise of some winter boogeyman for EV performance.
- moate 5y ago
  "When it comes to EV performance in the winter, you get what you pay for" feels like a much better (and equally snappy imo) headline for this.
  - boringg 5y ago
    Thanks for summarizing my statement more succinctly.
UltraViolence 5y ago
Would it be appropriate to use some of the charge to keep the battery at its optimum temperature? I assume there would be an optimum where heating would offset the reduced charge at colder temperatures.
chaostheory 5y ago
The range only drops dramatically if you use the air heater. Heated seats is a great middle ground. Of course, this might not work in places like Alaska
Gravityloss 5y ago
Heat pumps and great thermal management is one thing. The other is battery chemistry. Unfortunately nickel is expensive and I'm not sure if there is enough for large market penetration of electric cars. But high nickel (and potentially cobalt) batteries have less degradation from cold. LFP batteries don't have nickel or cobalt. They might work in the cold with more management. Björn Nyland has tested a large amount of vehicles, including a made in China Tesla Model 3 that uses LFP batteries, in cold conditions.
ghostly_s 5y ago
Anyone who lives somewhere cold is aware that cold and batteries aren't friends. I'm actually incredibly impressed by the cold-weather range numbers listed in this article, feels like clickbait.
mrfusion 5y ago
GOOD Point by my wife. Why can’t we have a small battery with cold tolerant chemistry to heat up the main battery?
torpfactory 5y ago
The key technological innovation is a fully integrated thermal management system which cools and/or warms the battery, inverters (and any other electronics), and cabin. Ideally it should use a single heat pump (much much more efficient than resistance heaters), with fluid loops to transfer heat energy from where it is generated to where it can be used (or wasted) most efficiently. This is a large ask from a mechanical design perspective since it involves many separate teams and impacts many subassemblies. Software control is also fairly complicated. Most manufacturers have not opted for a fully integrated system (thus cannot transfer waste heat to where it might be best used) or have not incorporated a heat pump (and are really wasting a lot of energy on resistance heating), and pay the price in cold-weather range. Heat pumps are the obvious engineering solution, but integrating them with the rest of the vehicle systems is not straightforward due to quirks of heat pump performance. The Model 3 was the first Tesla model to use the integrated heat pump system, and only after selling for 3 years using a resistance heater. I guarantee Tesla knew about the heat pump approach but spent years getting to a productizable, performant solution. Cold weather range loss will be a reality for both ICE and EVs, but there are no physical reasons why the range loss can't be kept to a modest amount.
fallingfrog 5y ago
I would really like some data on what the performance is like when it gets really cold. 32 degrees Fahrenheit would be a warm day through the months of January-March where I am.
baxuz 5y ago
Which is why I'm waiting for solid state batteries. Much wider temperature operating range.
rotanibmocy2 5y ago
What I read here is that except Tesla, Audi and Jaguar, all vehicle manufacturers use badly designed batteries. For Tesla, temperature is only a slight problem for model S and it is because it is by far the oldest model. Newer models (X, Y, 3) do not have a temperature dependent-range. It speaks of the quality of lithium ion batteries in these vehicles. While German manufacturers and other US brands have a long way ahead until their vehicles can be deemed reliable. I do not own a car but if I did and it had to be electric I would buy a Tesla. Unless I lived in the hottest country on earth where Hyundai's batteries, funny but true, have 10% extra mileage for free ;)
thehappypm 5y ago
The advice to start the cars heater while it’s still plugged in is very good advice!
giarc 5y ago
>Ironically, driving only a few miles a day will also shorten your range estimate. Is this true?
jessaustin 5y ago
Wow that chart is rough on BMW. Clearly they are a Chevy/Ford sort of brand, not a Tesla/Jaguar/Audi/Nissan sort of brand.
Handytinge 5y ago
"In freezing weather" would he a more accurate title. There are many, many places in the world where winter doesn't get this cold.

171 points by sofixa 5y ago

A summary of the article could be: SOMETIMES electric vehicles are not as efficient, so ALWAYS electric vehicles should not be used.

jleyank 5y ago

Fwiw, we’ve had some years when it didn’t break freezing for months at a time (Quebec/Ontario). During those years, it hit temps that are the same in c or f a few days, and was usually -20c or so at night. So I guess EV’s need a “deluxe Canadian battery” or lugs where the dogs could be attached? I’ve seen them about, but then I saw Lambos trying to drive in the snow in Montreal. Commuter vehicles for those with a good charger in the garage.

gameswithgo 5y ago
Many people enjoys EVs in extreme cold, you just either don’t do winter road trips in them, or live with lots of charging stops when you do (or wear a coat and dont heat the cabin much!) A 250 mile range cut in half is still more than enough for daily use.

jmclnx 5y ago

This is one of my major concerns about EV, over the years I had asked about this very issue and all I got was "range will be slightly less" or "no impact". So I decided to stick with fossil fuels. Getting stuck in the middle of no where in the winder is no fun where I live. I hope this hits the mainstream press, these days, seems all vehicles are only designed for use in Southern Calif. >AAA found the loss in driving range could be as high as 41% with the heater on full blast. My main concern was with the heater, in gas engines, heat is "free", I always thought the heater would be a big drain. Finally someone did some studies.

adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
when I look at this chat, I see that a properly designed ev loses less than 2% performance in cold weather.
- gameswithgo 5y ago
  yep, though below freezing it will get worse
ridgered4 5y ago
I actually think the same thing (designed for Southern California only) about self driving cars. My car comes with a bunch of pointless sensors that beep nonsense at me incessantly until I give up and disable them. The lane assist goes bananas while I dodge ample potholes or drive around road construction, so I turn that off. But even the panic breaking constantly complains it is no longer working (indicated by an irritating beep) because some combination of salt, road splash and maybe sun has disabled it. Heck, the backup camera requires frequent wipe downs due to salt otherwise I can't see anything out of it but a muddy blur. I've never owned a self driving car, but I suspect they'll just throw up their hands and tell you to deal with it in the event of any inclement weather. Which would be about half the time around here!
willis936 5y ago
>Finally someone did some studies. I recall reading an EPA study from the mid 2000s that compared the total fossil fuel emissions from gasoline, hybrid, and hypothetical electric vehicles. They included power usage for battery heaters and even the emissions from fossil fuel heaters in all electric heaters. I can't find the study now.
gameswithgo 5y ago
Did you take the time to read the articles? For many of the evs the range hit WAS minimal
pmorici 5y ago
Your concern is vastly inflated and misplaced. The car always tells you an accurate estimate of remaining range whatever the temperature. Also, the Tesla navigation automatically computes charge stops in real time and ads them to the navigation it makes it incredibly slick.

anon9384929 5y ago

Can someone explain this? I always thought batteries and electric motors were more efficient in (relatively) colder environments?

vladvasiliu 5y ago
Probably only up to a point. I ride a motorcycle and carry my phone in a pocket that's outside the thermal lining. I absolutely see the difference in how much it discharges when it's ~5ºC vs above 15ºC. And I'm thinking of the trip to my parents' house, so same duration, speed, and phone station locations.
tuatoru 5y ago
It's explained in the article. Batteries work by means of chemical reactions, which go faster at higher temperatures. Vehicle batteries are designed for the same sorts of temperatures that humans like, say 10 to 30 °C. In cold weather, energy has to be taken from the batteries to heat them up so that they work better. More energy is taken to heat the cabin of the vehicle for the occupants' comfort. This reduces the energy left in the battery for moving the vehicle.
- anon9384929 5y ago
  Thank you! Is it safe to say you want the wires transmitting the power to be cold, ideally, but the battery itself not necessarily so? (Thinking about the electric grid, etc here as well.)
  - xxs 5y ago
    Indeed, pretty much any conductor (that carries high current) would be more efficient (lower resistance) at lower temperatures. So the losses in the cables would be lower. However, that's a tiny part compared to the temperature needed for the battery chemistry to be efficient on its own.
mxuribe 5y ago
I would guess at some temperatures, chilly wind acts to cool any motors, well motors that move and prouce heat from their actions...But at some lower temperatures, stuff physically just slows down movement. I think the article states why here... > ...Cold temperatures slow down the chemical reactions in battery cells, which saps range and increases charging times.

twbarber 5y ago

This makes battery the primary differentiator for me when I evaluated EVs. As a resident of Vermont, where there aren’t a ton of super chargers the the winters were harsh, range is important. Higher rated mileage in fair weather carries over to winter, even with degradation from cold. We opted for a Model Y, and after a year of ownership it’s still offering the best range for a vehicle we’d consider affordable. Would love to see other manufacturers catch up to Tesla in this regard.

dsr_ 5y ago

What a terrible graph. They should have normalized everything as reduction relative to their actual warm-weather range, not relative to 100% of the EPA stated range. Alternatively, they could have discounted the warm weather range to the 100% EPA number. As is, it's a mess. The point of the article is that cold weather reduces range, and an explanatory graph should support that directly.

kylecordes 5y ago
I haven't even bothered to read the article because the terrible graph suggests the author has an axe to grind rather than insight to provide. Further, the data shown in the graph most likely reflects differences in how each car was measured, estimated, or marketed. I would love to see a better article somewhere else, where the same range testing is applied to 10 different EVs in the same weather conditions. How far does each of these cars actually go when it is cold and miserable? How far does each go when the weather is perfect? Then put that on the graph.

gameswithgo 5y ago

Newer Teslas with the heat pump do great in 30deg F temps, as the graph shows, but for extreme cold like 0 and below they suffer similar to the other cars, as heat pump efficiency can no longer win at that point.

falcolas 5y ago
Heat pumps can work below -20F, but it does require specific models built to work in those low temps. AKA, I doubt we’ll see them in cars designed in Cali anytime soon.
adam 5y ago
2021 Tesla Y owner here. Midwest location. Took a 150 mile trip yesterday. Temps were 38F. Left my house fully charged at 330mi range, battery topped off. Arrived with 100mi estimated range left. On the way home later that evening, temps were 28F. Left again almost fully topped off with estimated range of 310mi after visiting a supercharger. Arrived home with estimated 70mi of range left.
rconti 5y ago
I was surprised to see the Model S and Model X doing as well as the (presumably new) 3 in the chart. Do the S and X have the heat pump? I know it didn't make it to the 3 until ~2021 (ours is a 2018).

jcynix 5y ago

I still wonder, why nobody builds EVs combined with a small Stirling motor. Such a hybrid could charge a car while parked (if needed) and warm up batteries in the cold too. It would make EVs much more attractive for me, until charging infrastructure is more widely deploid, and allowing for a more gradual move away from oil. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stirling_engine

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
ReactiveJelly 5y ago
They're too big and heavy per horsepower compared to regular ICE. Also, if your car can turn on its engine automatically, Stirlings and regular ICE have the same problem - Something is autonomously generating carbon monoxide and consuming your fuel without a human watching it. Spooky.
- jcynix 5y ago
  Spooky? Just like the stand-by heating in my neighbors conventional car, which automatically starts every morning during winter. :-0
ben-schaaf 5y ago
From what I understand the size (and thus weight) of a Stirling engine is inversely proportional to the temperature difference it can run off. Running off 10s of degrees requires a very large engine to have any kind of usable power. Additionally it would at best be a benefit in hot climates where the battery needs cooling. In the cold you want to retain the heat not turn it inefficiently into energy.
ableal 5y ago
BMW i3 with range extender did that, don't know what kind of engine. Not quite intended as a PHEV, but I suppose it could run just on the ICE like most current PHEVs Toyota's hybrids (Prius, etc.) have used Atkinson cycle ICE, instead of Otto (one maximizes fuel economy, the other power delivered, I heard).

raverbashing 5y ago

Well, as always, it's a matter of preparation and technology. Tesla uses battery heaters if I'm not mistaken. But IC engines do have problems with the cold. Especially if using Diesel or E85. Most of those issues are now invisible because manufacturers do add fallbacks for those.

steveBK123 5y ago

It's an issue to consider when purchasing an EV and one of the tradeoffs. It varies model to model depending on the presence of heat pump, how the battery cooling/heating system works, etc. I think longterm we will need more detailed mpgE/range numbers for EVs than the old school city/highway EPA numbers. Something like a grid of 30F/70F/90F x 25mph/60mph/75mph x HVAC on/HVAC off. As with many things EV, Tesla is still ahead of the competition on this as you can see on the graph. So Tesla generally has more range to spare (300mi++) relative to competition (mostly 250mi-ish), and then performs better in winter against the stated range. On the plus side if you have a garage you can plug-in at night, schedule charging, pre-warm the cabin, jack up the seat heaters, and pre-condition the battery all on shore power, so cold won't have as much of an impact on the outbound trip. However on the return if the battery is cold soaked you will definitely see an impact. The other major EV difference is the range vs speed curve is different than for gas cars. Gas cars the ICE engine has a certain minimum output which is generally wasted at lower city driving speeds (plus no regen braking unless hybrid). This is why ICE have higher mpg/range on highways. EVs however its mostly a function of wind resistance so the faster you go, the lower the range. This can be quite noticeable at highway speed going 55-60mph vs say 75mph. Porsche Taycan has made some attempts to remediate this with having a 2 speed transmission, but I think we'll see more experimenting in this space.

hefferbub 5y ago

Like most engineering problems, smart design and rigorous execution make a huge difference. Tesla understood that heat management is key to an EV, so they invested in designing a compact and elegant system (Google “octovalve”) to move heat wherever it was helpful to send it. They also use intelligence to allow the car to optimize itself for charging. For example, you can use the Tesla smartphone app to have your car wake itself up and warm or cool both the battery and cabin while still plugged in. And if you use navigation to plan your charging stops, it will automatically precondition the battery pack as you are getting close for optimal charging speed. Most of the cars that performed poorly on that graph were because of shoddy engineering by people who don’t understand the problem space. That’s not a problem with EVs, it’s a problem with bad engineers and management who care about the wrong things.

nickpeterson 5y ago
To be fair, they’re also secondary teams with limited budgets. There is a huge difference between having a founder ceo who is actively trying to make the specific product succeed vs being one of 40 teams producing a niche compliance vehicle. I’m honestly shocked how decent the ford/vw/Chevy vehicles are honestly.
- sixQuarks 5y ago
  What's decent about the Ford/VW/Chevy vehicles? Have you actually test driven them?
  - tapoxi 5y ago
    I have a VW ID4. The infotainment software sucks but can be avoided for the most part by using CarPlay. The comfort, build quality, and turning radius (!!) are all exceptional.
    - darknavi 5y ago
      I swear my Model 3 has a turning radius of a Suburban.

loudmax 5y ago

I've noticed the difference in my plug-in Prius. In summer I had up to a 30 mile battery range. This winter it's been down to at worst 22 miles. Overall, I'm very happy with my plug-in hybrid as my commute to work is about 10 miles each way. If I drive anywhere outside the electric range, the car simply switches to burning gas. I find this car extremely pragmatic. Obviously YMMV.

ReactiveJelly 5y ago
Finally! Someone finally said "hybrid", thank you! Every thread about EVs is just like the ~discourse~ about LED traffic lights. [1] "We must stop making pure ICE cars" "But pure EVs aren't ready" "But we must stop making pure ICE cars!" "But pure EVs aren't ready!" Back and forth for _literally 20 years_ in which this little-known Japanese company, Toyota, has been producing an insanely popular line of hybrid sedans called "Prius". [2] I live in a small town and I can't really drive anywhere without seeing at least one Prius. They are everywhere. The used ones are not super-expensive, either, especially compared to a pure EV that needs a bigger battery. Hybrids have been viable for _twenty years_ and people are still debating ICE vs. EV. Plug-in hybrids are now becoming more common, and even big pickup trucks are talking about mild hybridization. And a Prius can go 500 or 600 miles on a tank and then just refuel. A pure EV means no spontaneous road trips. Not a problem with any hybrid. Pure ICE should be out of the picture for 50% of drivers, but we are still using pure EVs as a weak man [3] to pretend that ICE cars are still viable in the post-Prius-plugin era. It makes me a little mad. [1] Technology Connections made a video on this ~discourse~ and how dumb it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GiYO1TObNz8 [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prius [3] https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweapons/ https://slatestarcodex.com/2014/05/12/weak-men-are-superweap... Like the Nissan Leaf. Short range, cheap, bad in winter. No excuse to not talk about Priuses.
- superkuh 5y ago
  The hybrids aren't going to be much help when the internal combustion bans come in in approximately 2030-2035 for a large fraction of developed countries. People talk about pure EVs because legislation is demanding pure EVs.

tomkaos 5y ago

Some bad surprise with plugin hybrid too. Many hybrid use the gas engine for heating the car, they don't have electric heater. My Santa Fe PHEV will never use the battery under 15C because the gas engine need to always run to stay warm. You can drive hour and come back with a full battery.

xxs 5y ago
>PHEV will never use the battery under 15C Seems really harsh, my own hybrid (not Sanra Fe) does that at around -13C.

beardicus 5y ago

I have a Bolt and it definitely loses a lot of range in the winter. I still have plenty of range for what I need to do, so no worries. The surprising part of this graph for me is that I thought all EVs had a similar magnitude of loss in the winter... guess not! Kudos to Tesla on this particular metric.

jillesvangurp 5y ago

Performance degrades of course, but modern EVs are quite popular in e.g. Norway where they drive them well inside arctic conditions. It's not like they stop working under conditions where ICE vehicles definitely face challenges with both range and reliability. Unless your ICE vehicle is plugged in to keep the engine warm when it is parked, it might not even start at all. Those same systems are great for keeping your EV topped up of course. Anything liquid might end up freezing. In an EV that's electrolytes, cooling liquid, brake fluids, etc. Of course, batteries can be heated in an EV and that helps. Simply using them heats them up. That's why many EVs have battery cooling. Also many owners might want to turn up the heat remotely so they enter a nicely warmed car instead of an ice box. That costs energy and range of course. So, it's not all that black and white. But overall, it seems EVs can do well under arctic conditions. All the big vendors test under those conditions. The cold hard reality (to paraphrase the alarmist title) is that it isn't that big of a deal.

UltraViolence 5y ago
I'd say a 50% drop in range IS a big deal. There's none of that with ICE vehicles.
- protomyth 5y ago
  Anyone who owns a hybrid in the northland probably notices a dip in gas mileage in the winter. My Kia Niro loses about 30% of its gas mileage in the winter months in North Dakota. Its enough of a difference that this will be my last hybrid, and I am going to be very careful when I buy an electric. Since, I live in an apartment currently, I don't really have an option for an electric.
  - sjg007 5y ago
    30% isn't that bad. Even petrol cars get similarly bad or worse mileage in the winter. https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/coldweather.shtml Also cars in general as they age gradually get worse mileage.

throwaway11177 5y ago

> 21st century > °F

andbberger 5y ago

of note, the MBTA is about to replace their last few remaining trolleybuses with battery electric buses... which will require diesel heaters

upofadown 5y ago
If a heat pump won't work than this might make sense. Better than resistive electrical heat, particularly if the electricity comes from something like coal.
tapoxi 5y ago
I'm in Watertown (served by the 71 and 73) and upset about this, but it's probably the right move given the high failure rates during rainstorms and the inability to pass other busses on the road, causing useless congestion.
- andbberger 5y ago
  definitely not the right move! trolleybuses can easily pass other buses. modern trolleybuses have significant off-wire capability, so if MBTA's maintenance is really so bad they're getting dewired in the rain, operators can be keep driving until they get a chance to rewire the poles, or MBTA can put up pole catchers and they can be rewired automatically. MBTA should be putting up more wires, not taking down what they currently have. Battery buses aren't much cheaper than trolleybuses, if it all (they have significant infrastructure costs too), and in every other aspect trolleybuses are far superior
  - tapoxi 5y ago
    Thanks, I'm not knowledgeable enough about this but if you're also in Belmont/Watertown you might want to bring it up with Sen. Brownsberger, he has a deep knowledge of the MBTA and was the one who advocated for their dedicated lanes.
    - andbberger 5y ago
      not in Boston anymore and they're scheduled to go out of service in 8 days so...

notacoward 5y ago

Very timely for me, as I unexpectedly had to ditch my 14-year-old gas Mini yesterday (frame rot because I live in New England). I was aware of this issue, and had already started doing winter-range calculations as I shop for an all-electric replacement. Mostly this will be an around-town second car so range basically doesn't matter, but the one long trip I might want to do is 160 miles in winter. I was figuring I'd need 200+ nominal to feel comfortable, but the models I'm looking at are above 90% (not bad IMO) so it could be a bit less. Turns out it's a moot point, though, because there's basically nothing except some Porsches and Audis that are above 170 but below 215. FWIW, here's a handy table for anyone else in a similar shopping situation. https://insideevs.com/news/566954/bev-epa-range-comparison-february2022/ https://insideevs.com/news/566954/bev-epa-range-comparison-f...

ChoGGi 5y ago
> frame rot because I live in New England If you mean salt, then you can get a mechanic/etc to spray an undercoating reach year to keep the rust away.
- notacoward 5y ago
  I've been doing that, but it still happened. Same with my wife's last car, though less excusable in that case because it was only half as old. Just one of the things we have to put up with, I guess.

punnerud 5y ago

If you select your stop for charging on the Tesla screen it will preheat the battery so the charging go way faster, especially during winter (compared to not heating the battery)

altacc 5y ago

It's interesting that some of the cars with large differences between cold & warm have there EPA ranges closer to the the cold temperature range, whilst others are closer to the warm range. It's as if some manufacturers have chosen the lower range for their EPAs, so will be less disappointing and appear better in warm weather than promised. I would expect consistency but this is one the flaws of comparing cars specifications: there isn't a truly accurate and constant way to measure ranges that consumers can trust (the same is true for MPG estimates for ICEs).

joosters 5y ago

Source for the data: https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss https://www.recurrentauto.com/research/winter-ev-range-loss - which is IMO a better report than the Axios news article.

dahfizz 5y ago

This is another example of how far ahead tesla is with their battery and electrical systems. Which is kind of frustrating for me, because I want an EV and Tesla sucks at pretty much everything else. Their cars are super expensive to repair, and its impossible to get parts yourself. The build quality is poor. The cars (except for the model s, maybe) are ugly. But they absolutely destroy the competition on a technical level.

muzika 5y ago
For many years now you can buy all parts except some that are “restricted” to shops, and even those you can usually find on eBay or junk yards. Teslas are not super expensive to repair if you compare them to BMW instead of Honda Civic. And they are much more reliable than BMWs and require almost no maintenance. Source: I repaired about 10 teslas.

captainmuon 5y ago

I have actually worked on a battery system, but still have problems understanding wrapping my head around how the temperature dependance works. Do (Li-ion) batteries store less charge (Coulombs) when charging cold? Or is it when discharging cold, they convert some of the energy to waste heat? Or do the same charges translate to less energy (e.g. less voltage difference at same current) when the battery is discharged cold? Maybe someone can give a good explanation, I found it hard to get a straigt answer :-)

raxxorrax 5y ago
It is in general the reaction speed which results in a lower voltage. But I believe the exact reason is poorly understood. Seems to affect all batteries and lithium-ion batteries are no exception. Most people I know report that their formerly 350km vehicles only drive 250km if it is really cold outside. Of course you also have heating withing the cabin that is not an insignificant factor. So cars perform worse, but they don't completely break down. Although I had it happen with a company car once when it was very cold outside. Display told me to stop as soon as I can. I did so and the car went completely dead. Left it there, the next day was considerably warmer and the car worked normally again.

SimonPStevens 5y ago

I recently bought a second hand Nissan Leaf (2015 model, so the battery is already 7 years old), and I have to say my experience with it has been fantastic, even through the winter. The range is about 70-80 miles of general town driving 30-40mph in the UK winter, so cold, but not freezing most of the time. The range doesn't seem to be noticeable different between warm and cold days. Average temp is probably around 5c. The range does drop noticeable on motorways. I haven't done a proper test, but I suspect it's probably only good for 40ish miles at 70mph. As a second car it's brilliant. It's saved us a load on petrol doing the local trips, school runs, short commute, etc. Even with the current high power prices in the UK. It very much depends on what you plan to use it for, but if your usage profile fits what the car does well, it's a really nice car. I plan to do a proper blog post at some point analyzing some data on it. Maybe after the summer and I'll see if the range improves.

bombcar 5y ago
How much did it run you, and did you consider a newer model?
- SimonPStevens 5y ago
  £9800. 28,000 miles on the clock. Battery still reporting 12 out of 12 for health. I did look at a few other used models, one a couple of years newer, but a lot of miles on the clock and quite a bit more expensive. This one I got just had the best balance of price, age, condition, etc of the cars I saw. I briefly looked at new ones, but prices started at around £27k, and I didn't really want to spend that much. I tend not to buy new cars.
bestouff 5y ago
I have a Renault Zoé, and live in the French Alps (1000m altitude) with harsh winters, and so far this little car has been marvelous. I wouldn't go back to an ICE car for my regular commute.
- SimonPStevens 5y ago
  I looked at a Zoe too, it's an equally nice car that fits the exact same niche for short range or town driving. It mostly just came down to the fact the particular leaf I found was the best balance on price vs age for what was on the market at the time. I'd have likely been just as happy with a Zoe had I found a good one.

btbuildem 5y ago

What would be interesting to see is the balance of energy cost for battery heaters. Is it better to use some electricity to warm up the battery just slightly to get more power out of it for longer? There's probably a sweet spot there. I imagine similar with cooling, except there the "end of range" scenario is more.. dramatic.

mbbutler 5y ago

I have to question the accuracy of the numbers presented in this article. I own a Chevy Bolt in Maine and the figure listed in this article is far off from what I have experienced over several winters here. At a temp of 20 F my bolt loses ~20% of its range from the EPA estimate, going from 236 to about 190miles of range. Conversely, my friend owns a Tesla Model 3 up here and his range degrades severely during winter on the order of 30%. edit: He owns a Model 3, not a Model Y.

mbbutler 5y ago
Replying to my own comment with an update. The temperature today in my area varied between 9 F at 9AM and 25 F at 3PM. My girlfriend happened to need to drive to several different towns/cities for her work so her total trip was 135 miles. Our Bolt says it has 50 miles left. I only charge to 90% and just received a new 259 mile range battery as part of the Bolt recall. So the EPA range of my Bolt at 90% charge is 233 miles. If we take the Bolt's 50 mile left range claim at face value (which I have found to be overly pessimistic), then it got 185 miles of range today out of the expected 233, or a ~20% drop in EPA stated range. So I just don't believe the numbers provided in the linked article. They are completely out of whack with my every day experience owning a Bolt through three winters in Maine.

jameshart 5y ago

And turning on your AC in summer will impact your gas mileage. And some gas cars will have trouble even starting at low temperatures. It’s not a shock that car performance is weather dependent.

gwbas1c 5y ago

I do most of my long trips in my Model 3 in the winter, to go skiing. I usually do ~300 miles round-trip in a day. Here's what I do: I leave my car plugged in overnight, in the "normal" charging mode. While I get dressed, I turn on extended range mode and turn the heat on. This warms up both the car and the battery. It usually takes me about ~20 minutes to get dressed. I stop at a Supercharger to use the bathroom. If I can, I grab meals at a Supercharger. Most of the time, I don't need to "wait" while the car charges, usually because I'm in the bathroom or waiting for food prep. If I do need to wait, it's usually about 5 minutes. Thus, total stopping time is about as much as a gas car. The only limitation is that there's waaaay less Superchargers than gas stations. The only time I really had to wait a long time at a Supercharger was when I went to a ski area with a charger, and because it was early season, there were no lifts / shuttles to the parking lot with the charger. (Otherwise I'd have been able to drive home without charging.) Edits: I have a 2018 long-range. It got a total of 307 miles new, now that it's 3 years old it's total range is ~280. (This is very close to the 2022 standard range, BTW.) I get about 2/3rds of stated range in cold weather. I drive with the heat at 68, and I use the but warmer for a few minutes. I try not to exceed 75MPH on 65MPH roads, or 80MPH on 70MPH roads. Where I drive, often traffic exceeds the posted speed limit.

monkmartinez 5y ago
> The only limitation is that there's waaaay less Superchargers than gas stations. Hopefully this changes with time, but it is a GIANT limitation. Skiing around Arizona I have noticed all the chargers have EV's parked in them. I want to buy a used BMW i3, but the convenience factor is still a ways off for me. My Prius gets awesome mileage and I run the heater full blast in the winter and A/C full blast in the summer. I have half a mind to put a giant DIY battery in the trunk. Wire in a dead man switch of some kind and run on pure 18650's around town... gonna flirt with the idea a bit more. My DIY electric bike has probably given me a bit more confidence in the area than I need, but YOLO!
- donkeyd 5y ago
  > Hopefully this changes with time Looking at Europe, nearly every gas station is starting to get a fast charger installed (along major roads, at least). A couple of years ago there were waiting lines at super chargers during the yearly migration to the Alps, but I haven't seen any similar stories this year.

boringg 5y ago

This is a bit of a strange article coming from Axios who does a lot of coverage on the greener side of the future. The cold hard truth: weaker product offerings (see the domestic US companies outside Tesla) have very poor response to colder weather all other companies have accounted for it and the drop off is pretty minimal. Thanks Axios for wasting our time and pointing out that if you buy an inferior product expect and inferior outcome under the guise of some winter boogeyman for EV performance.

moate 5y ago
"When it comes to EV performance in the winter, you get what you pay for" feels like a much better (and equally snappy imo) headline for this.
- boringg 5y ago
  Thanks for summarizing my statement more succinctly.

UltraViolence 5y ago

Would it be appropriate to use some of the charge to keep the battery at its optimum temperature? I assume there would be an optimum where heating would offset the reduced charge at colder temperatures.

chaostheory 5y ago

The range only drops dramatically if you use the air heater. Heated seats is a great middle ground. Of course, this might not work in places like Alaska

Gravityloss 5y ago

Heat pumps and great thermal management is one thing. The other is battery chemistry. Unfortunately nickel is expensive and I'm not sure if there is enough for large market penetration of electric cars. But high nickel (and potentially cobalt) batteries have less degradation from cold. LFP batteries don't have nickel or cobalt. They might work in the cold with more management. Björn Nyland has tested a large amount of vehicles, including a made in China Tesla Model 3 that uses LFP batteries, in cold conditions.

ghostly_s 5y ago

Anyone who lives somewhere cold is aware that cold and batteries aren't friends. I'm actually incredibly impressed by the cold-weather range numbers listed in this article, feels like clickbait.

mrfusion 5y ago

GOOD Point by my wife. Why can’t we have a small battery with cold tolerant chemistry to heat up the main battery?

torpfactory 5y ago

The key technological innovation is a fully integrated thermal management system which cools and/or warms the battery, inverters (and any other electronics), and cabin. Ideally it should use a single heat pump (much much more efficient than resistance heaters), with fluid loops to transfer heat energy from where it is generated to where it can be used (or wasted) most efficiently. This is a large ask from a mechanical design perspective since it involves many separate teams and impacts many subassemblies. Software control is also fairly complicated. Most manufacturers have not opted for a fully integrated system (thus cannot transfer waste heat to where it might be best used) or have not incorporated a heat pump (and are really wasting a lot of energy on resistance heating), and pay the price in cold-weather range. Heat pumps are the obvious engineering solution, but integrating them with the rest of the vehicle systems is not straightforward due to quirks of heat pump performance. The Model 3 was the first Tesla model to use the integrated heat pump system, and only after selling for 3 years using a resistance heater. I guarantee Tesla knew about the heat pump approach but spent years getting to a productizable, performant solution. Cold weather range loss will be a reality for both ICE and EVs, but there are no physical reasons why the range loss can't be kept to a modest amount.

fallingfrog 5y ago

I would really like some data on what the performance is like when it gets really cold. 32 degrees Fahrenheit would be a warm day through the months of January-March where I am.

baxuz 5y ago

Which is why I'm waiting for solid state batteries. Much wider temperature operating range.

rotanibmocy2 5y ago

What I read here is that except Tesla, Audi and Jaguar, all vehicle manufacturers use badly designed batteries. For Tesla, temperature is only a slight problem for model S and it is because it is by far the oldest model. Newer models (X, Y, 3) do not have a temperature dependent-range. It speaks of the quality of lithium ion batteries in these vehicles. While German manufacturers and other US brands have a long way ahead until their vehicles can be deemed reliable. I do not own a car but if I did and it had to be electric I would buy a Tesla. Unless I lived in the hottest country on earth where Hyundai's batteries, funny but true, have 10% extra mileage for free ;)

thehappypm 5y ago

The advice to start the cars heater while it’s still plugged in is very good advice!

giarc 5y ago

>Ironically, driving only a few miles a day will also shorten your range estimate. Is this true?

jessaustin 5y ago

Wow that chart is rough on BMW. Clearly they are a Chevy/Ford sort of brand, not a Tesla/Jaguar/Audi/Nissan sort of brand.

Handytinge 5y ago

"In freezing weather" would he a more accurate title. There are many, many places in the world where winter doesn't get this cold.