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Norway Chess cancels Alexander Grischuk

103 points by luu 5y ago

tromp 5y ago
> But just taking the yachts without true due process? They're not. They're preventing the yacht from being moved or sold or serviced. It remains his property, and he's free to spend time on it.
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jeanlou 5y ago
The cancel culture is strong. What this war has made us understand is that some people are more equal than others, therefore, they have the privilege of standing on higher moral ground to impose upon the rest their two speed morality. We're seing the world for what it trully is.
starik36 5y ago
Understandable in light of sanctions against Russia. However, this truly sucks for him as an individual, particularly in light of what he had to say about the invasion. The man is truly pained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFN0s53RpGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFN0s53RpGY
- yaseer 5y ago
  Yeah that really sucks. It's understandable when the lines between state and individual are blurred - like with state sponsored doping of Olympic athletes, who are competing as part of a national organisation. But when it's an individual whose nationality just happens to be Russian? Seems more unfair, than just.
- deleted 5y ago
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- encryptluks2 5y ago
  It isn't understandable really. What is happening here is discrimination and can't be justified. Unless they have some proof that they are a spy or as an extension of Russian government for a dangerous intent, then there is no excuse. This is only going to create more conflict and tension, and generate hatred in people that would otherwise be neutral.
  - mwt 5y ago
    -
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      Oh, please. Ethically, they should have a justification to their actions. If they get to kick people out for their nationality (when that person is not "representing" a nation) then I get to think they're foolish.
    - drugstorecowboy 5y ago
      Framing a rescinded invitation as discrimination is not a stretch at all, it very literally is discrimination. If you replace this definitely not discriminatory action against a Russian with a Black Man would you still support it?
  - JumpCrisscross 5y ago
    > What is happening here is discrimination and can't be justified It is discrimination. And it's entirely justified. The same way when, if your friend stars a bar brawl, you all get kicked out. Only he should get e.g. arrested. But there's a big difference between not being able to compete for your country and getting shelled.
    - encryptluks2 5y ago
      Wow, so you believe people of color deserve discrimination because statistically they commit more violent crime?
endisneigh 5y ago
Gotta love how discrimination is so easily spread. Like, this guy has said very many times in public that he doesn’t support the invasion, but he’s Russian, y’know? It’s sad how humanity just keeps doing the same thing over and over…
- imbnwa 5y ago
  In the domain of Mixed Martial Arts there's a discussion over whether to permit Russian nationals to have fights, even though the majority of Russian nationals in MMA are from colonized ethnic groups who live in the southern Russian republics, e.g. Chechnya, Dagestan, etc. Amateur wrestling would be completely fucked if it were to conceive and follow through on such a ban given the hegemony in amateur wrestling these southern Russian republics hold there, particularly Dagestan.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    >Chechnya Even if the invasion had never happened boycotting Chechnya would have been acceptable given their previous actions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#LGBT_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#LGBT_rights
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    - imbnwa 5y ago
      Sure, but that's independent of the current conversation while not being wrong in its own context.
- version_five 5y ago
  Agreed - I can't believe how quickly the "mainstream" had adopted a hatred basically of a whole people based on the actions of an autocratic leader that does not represent them, and where speaking out would almost certainly have very bad consequences. We should be doing everything we can to stop Putin from waging war, but casual hatred of a group is not helpful or appropriate, even if it's the obvious extension of all the online mob behavior we've seen in recent years.
jstx1 5y ago
Not sure why the title is about Grischuk specifically, Norway Chess banned all Russian players. Which sucks given that many of these players have spoken up against what Russia is doing. Seems like they're being penalized unnecessarily.
- sandworm101 5y ago
  The country is being punished. Countries are made up of people. In all likelihood no Russian will be untouched by these sanctions. The secondary motivation is that other players might drop out in protest. Look at what just happened to the Paralympics. The plan from on high was to keep the Russian team. It looks like it was complaints from the other athletes complaining that reversed decision.
  - lionkor 5y ago
    Once Putin is gone, if there actually is some revolution, everyone in Russia has learned to have the deepest, most passionate hate towards the west and their undifferentiated discrimination. You are looking at removing Putin, who will, if democratically voted for, be replaced by someone even more extremist. Stop giving the working Russian people a reason to have the west. Give them hope, show them what life can be like, dont beat them down and scream at them.
- amelius 5y ago
  Karpov and Karjakin support Putin.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    Sure, and Nepo, Grischuk, Svidler etc. don't. Norway Chess treats these two groups the same.
    - pastor_bob 5y ago
      are they supposed to vet individuals with a twitter litmus test? That, in some sense, seems worse.
voakbasda 5y ago
This sounds like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Zero tolerance is indistinguishable from intolerance.
sethbannon 5y ago
For those curious, Alexander Grischuk did put out a fairly strong statement of condemnation of the invasion: https://worldchess.com/news/all/alexander-grischuk-on-the-russias-invasion-of-ukraine-its-extrem/ https://worldchess.com/news/all/alexander-grischuk-on-the-ru... Pretty brave of him.
- dandanua 5y ago
  It does nothing. It's a statement for the west audience. He can't say the same in Russian for the Russian audience loudly. Because in this case he will be put in jail for years. Wake up, Russia is a fascists state. Which is on the blood run.
  - ASalazarMX 5y ago
    Forbidding him to play chess also won't stop a single bullet or ruble destined to their war. This sudden Russian = Evil attitude is nonsensical, the Russian government and its oligarchy are the real evil, and they don't care for chess.
  - s1artibartfast 5y ago
    So perhaps we should find the Russians in our own communities and punish them as well
- rvz 5y ago
  Looks like Norway Chess could not distinguish between the individual's view vs the views of the Russian Government and did an over-reactionary blanket ban on any Russian which is beyond stupid, even though he condemned it. Does that mean if say, Garry Kasparov was to play against another chess player, he should be banned even though he also condemned the invasion? Quite ridiculous tbh. Even Russian cats are banned [0], they don't have a view of the Russian governments actions on the invasion either and have nothing to do with it, except 'being from Russia'. Of course from them, there's no redemption. Anything Russian thrown into the lost and banned. To Downvoters: You do realise you can be Russian and be against the Russian government and condemn the whole invasion right? [0] https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1499289953443930113 https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1499289953443930113
jdrc 5y ago
I hate it when a serious issue is dragged to the extreme in such distracting ways. Dostoyevski and chess players are not the problem , be smart
- TomGullen 5y ago
  Working class Russians are not the problem either, yet the sanctions penalise them the most.
  - burmanm 5y ago
    And that usually plays to the advantage of the elite. Now the working class has only one supporter, the Russian government. Their propaganda of "west hates you" feels very real to them now. This is quite age old tactic that usually doesn't work, punishing civilians in the war usually does not demoralize them, but works against the aggressor. Same can be said about these sanctions. Why would they trust the west if we want to punish them and their only hope is their current administration?
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      >Now the working class has only one supporter, the Russian government. They have only one enemy, the Russian government.
      - burmanm 5y ago
        > They have only one enemy, the Russian government. Do you think layman thinks the friend is the person who punishes them without them doing anything wrong? I find that seriously difficult to believe. Think about it yourself. You go to a nightclub and then the doorman says only you're not allowed, because your friends who just went in said you're not wanted. Do you still consider them as your friends and just think it's for your best? That's a very odd logic there.
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causi 5y ago
It's not about the chess players. It's about the little people who see the headline that another of their representatives is unwelcome, and about the powerful people who see one more way Russia is being shamed for its actions.
- adenozine 5y ago
  Sure, but what about the livelihoods of the people these actions affect more directly? What if he needs that chess money to pay his bills? It’s heavy handed, imo.
  - causi 5y ago
    The proportionate response would be to start shelling Russian cities. Nothing short of that can be heavy-handed.
  - have_faith 5y ago
    Do you apply the same logic to all of the banking sanctions that effect regular Russian people? should we not enact any sanctions that could in any way effect the value of the rouble for instance? as the whole country relies on it to pay their bills. People are dying, heavy handed measures are needed.
  - brimble 5y ago
    Everyone in Russia is going to be hurting from this. Most of them don't really deserve it, but you can't bring an entire economy to its knees without harming everyone. It'd be kinda weird to single out chess masters to save from the pain, while a grandma on a fixed income is facing shortages and watching her already-meager buying power drop by the day, the low-level staff at various businesses are put on half-time or cut altogether and they'll be skipping meals to make rent, et c.
    - adenozine 5y ago
      I didn’t single them out; I highlighted this instance in my reply. I agree with you, and i sympathize for all working folk, everywhere, always, and forever. I was only meaning to point out that people who play chess for a living are technically working folk too, that’s all. The people of Russia must seize their nation back somehow, whether by means of diplomacy or other means, if necessary.
wedn3sday 5y ago
It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.
- jstx1 5y ago
  They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.
  - lordnacho 5y ago
    Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.
    - jstx1 5y ago
      > Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from playing an event. (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives. (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because they were born in the same country as the deranged person from above. I don't get how (2) is an appropriate response to (1) or how it helps anyone. It's not a deterrent, it's not any kind of response - nobody in the Russian government will feel the tiniest bit of pressure because of it, it's such a token act that it's laughable to think about in the context of what's happening in Ukraine. At the same time it's a big deal to the handful of players it affects. All this does is create publicity and make the careers of a few people significantly worse just because they happened to be born in the wrong country.
harshreality 5y ago
This initially may seem like unproductive, mistargeted overreaction. However, consider that if Russians can't do what they want to do, maybe they'll focus more efforts on fixing their country so it stops the invasion and doesn't do something like this ever again. It may not work, but every Russian needs to be thinking about that, with priority over their jobs and hobbies. Making things painful for them is one way to do that. It's terrible for people whose jobs are directly affected, but the situation is even worse for Ukrainians.
- agency 5y ago
  Imagine if Americans were held to the same standard with respect to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.
  - harshreality 5y ago
    I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including by shelling cities?
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      Are you suggesting killing innocent people is somehow more righteous if a the area is not democratic? Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones? Again, not to create a false equivalency but I believe the OPs point is that shouldn’t Americans be ostracized?
      - harshreality 5y ago
        Killing people isn't righteous. It is, however, more acceptable or tolerable depending on the context and military force and tactics used. Blame what you want, but what percentage of the UN and UN security council denounced American actions? What percentage denounce Russia's current actions?
amelius 5y ago
https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/t0av3a/this_may_not_be_directly_related_to_chess_but_i/ https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/t0av3a/this_may_not_...
buzzdenver 5y ago
It is a sucky situation without any perfect solutions. Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Judging everyone based on their individual reactions to the invasion is just not a scalable solution, and probably also puts those who speak out in greater danger.
- bloak 5y ago
  > Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Yes, it would be clear if you define "Russian". Do you mean everyone who currently holds a Russian passport? Everyone who has at some point held a Russian passport? What about someone who used to have a Soviet passport with their nationality recorded in it as "Russian" but who didn't live in Russia? What about people who used to have a Soviet passport and lived in Russia but with a different nationality in their documents? (Apparently Russian passports up until around 1997 had a "nationality" field, like the old Soviet passports, so you could have a Russian passport with your nationality recorded as something other than Russian. Presumably you could officially be a Ukrainian citizen of Russia, for example. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the other former Soviet states also record nationality so you might be able to have a passport from Kazakhstan or Latvia that says "Russian" in it. I would hope, however, that nobody is seriously thinking of banning "Russians" while defining "Russians" to include people who have never had either a Soviet or a Russian passport.) EDIT: I would guess that you'd probably want to define "Russian" for these purposes as someone who currently has a Russian passport, but perhaps it's not totally obvious that that's the right answer?
  - buzzdenver 5y ago
    Any chess players who played under the Russian flag before the invasion. I don't know the exact details in chess, but in most sports you have to declare a country when participating in top level sports. For example dual citizens cannot just switch between playing for any country's national team that they are a citizen of.
    - bloak 5y ago
      Cannot "just" switch? What's that mean, exactly? Surely there is some kind of a procedure for people to change their "sports" nationality if they really have emigrated and so on? (You might think of having a rule that you can only change your "sports" nationality if you "renounce" your previous citizenship, but it many cases it's not possible to "renounce" citizenship: you can let your passport expire, but whatever condition, such as place of birth, allowed you to apply for that passport in the first place would still exist so you would continue to have the option of receiving a passport for the previous country if you ever wanted to apply for one. Moreover, it would be impossible for you to prove you hadn't done that because countries do not, as a rule, issue documents to certify that a given person does not have a valid passport!)
shtopointo 5y ago
What’s with all these cancellations of Russian citizens? Surely this is not going to look good at the end of this war, and it’ll just be more propaganda for the Russian gov’t to use - “look, the west doesn’t care about you”. Is this just “cancel culture” exposed in a different area?
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- roveo 5y ago
  Yeah, I think this time period will be called "The Great Cancelling of Russia" in the history books.
slg 5y ago
Sanctions are often universal rather than person specific. Grischuk isn't being banned for his specific political beliefs. He is being banned as an action against his country. Some of the ways we punish that country are by punishing its people. It doesn't mean the people receiving that punishment are guilty of anything, it is just the method of putting pressure on that country's government to reverse course. This is true of basically all sanctions against Russia whether is is something symbolic like preventing athletes from competing under a Russian flag, something general like trade sanctions, or something very specific such as seizing a yacht of an oligarch. These all hurt specific people in varying ways that isn't proportional with those people's personal politics or guilt in the actions of the Russian government.
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- postalrat 5y ago
  So there is no reason Alexander Grischuk should comment about the conflict. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose.
  - slg 5y ago
    It is questionable morally to only comment on this situation in a way designed to personally benefit you.
    - ncann 5y ago
      It's bad when you word it like that, but change it to "in a way designed to prevent you and your loved ones from great harm" and suddenly it's very understandable.
      - slg 5y ago
        Then simply don't comment if that is the fear.
chomp 5y ago
Can we get the link updated to the official statement? https://norwaychess.no/en/2022/03/02/russian-participation/ https://norwaychess.no/en/2022/03/02/russian-participation/ The article is an opinion piece that's inaccurately framed in that it's not the specific canceling of an individual (and cats), but solidarity with sanctions placed on Russia.
somenameforme 5y ago
This is getting really stupid. Anytime there is some major event we always work to try to ensure that people appreciate there is a difference between the people of a country and the bad actors of a country - even when those bad actors are the government. But now because it's our favorite geopolitical enemy, everything goes out the window. Imagine if the victims of our wars (or their partners) were more influential and were able to effectively spread global messages of arbitrary hate and intolerance against people simply for being American. And not mob mentality from extremists and radicals already predispositioned to hate, but orchestrated top-down hatred and intolerance from the "liberal" world order. This is not going to spark some amazing revolution of frustrated chess players, disabled athletes, and cat show enthusiasts. The only thing this sort of stuff is doing is driving more hatred and division, and helping us inch that much closer to WW3. Putin invading Ukraine was a terrible decision; many Russians of all walks of lives oppose it. Yet they're at least as helpless to ever change any of it than we are to end our never-ending wars in the Mideast since we, at least in theory, could stop voting for warmongers.
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- ALittleLight 5y ago
  I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. It would simply be a good thing if Americans were reviled for waging wars of aggression on other states. That would mean fewer people in the US would support wars and there would be fewer wars. That would be good. It's at least worth a shot. Adam Smith wrote - "In great empires the people who live in the capital, and in the provinces remote from the scene of action, feel, many of them, scarce any inconvenience from the war; but enjoy, at their ease, the amusement of reading in the newspapers the exploits of their own fleets and armies. To them this amusement compensates the small difference between the taxes which they pay on account of the war, and those which they had been accustomed to pay in time of peace. They are commonly dissatisfied with the return of peace, which puts an end to their amusement, and to a thousand visionary hopes of conquest and national glory from a longer continuance of the war." In other words, war is kind of fun and exciting for a populace that doesn't feel harm from it. I remember watching stories of the invasion of Iraq, and it seemed a lot like that to me. The media and the country generally enjoying the exploits of our armies. Well, we can balance that enjoyment by a dissatisfaction of denying other pleasures to the population. No more chess, international sports, travel, etc. The complaint here should not be that this is being done to Russia, it should be. You're justified to complain that America was not made a pariah, but that's a different kind of complaint.
themodelplumber 5y ago
The Russian diplomatic corps and information operations teams are taking advantage of the emotional signaling power of the word "cancel" to attempt to manipulate the American right, with whom the word resonates as their world seems to unfairly change around them. If you want to be taken seriously as a nuanced thinker, rather than a sketchy what-abouter trying to yank people around, I wouldn't use that word. Prediction: https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1498441260499017733 https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1498441260499017733 Outcome 1: https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1499041366696992772 https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1499041366696992772 Outcome 2: https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/1499421918629404681 https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/1499421918629404681
- JohnTHaller 5y ago
  To put it flippantly: Propagandists gonna propagandize. Don't help propagandists.
privatdozent 5y ago
Not what happened though. They removed all Russian players, out of solidarity with Ukraine. That includes Svidler and Nepo, who are both critical of Putin and the invasion. As was Chucky!
agambrahma 5y ago
Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially _after_ they've made their personal stance clear. Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is what organizers should care more about. There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here, such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.
- Mo3 5y ago
  Yeah giving them the EU passports and just attributing them to „EU“
  - seszett 5y ago
    There is no "EU passport", just 27 national passports that also have "European Union" written next to the issuing country. It's only up to individual countries to issue their passports, also Norway isn't in the EU anyway.
    - Mo3 5y ago
      I am referring to the EUs plans to issue passports. I'm not informed beyond having heard this.
  - dahfizz 5y ago
    Neither Russia, Ukraine, or Norway are in the EU. You may as well make them play for Madagascar; it makes no sense.
- toolslive 5y ago
  They have been creative in the past too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1990#Flag_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1990#...
  - lupire 5y ago
    It happened just 3 months ago when Nepo played while Russia was under sanctions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_202... and of course the same thing happened in the Olympics a few weeks ago!
bjourne 5y ago
But Saudi Arabia can bomb Yemen for years and Israel Palestine for decades without repercussions? I'm all for sanctions against Russia but the hypocrisy here is so thick you couldn't cut it with a knife.
- ars 5y ago
  Are you obsessed with Israel or something? This isn't the first time I've seen your comments about Israel, and your submission history is just full of this topic. Israel isn't "bombing Palestinies for decades". They're fighting back when Palestinians attack them (why did you gloss over Palestinians bombing Israel?), then there's quiet for a while, and then more fighting. The Israeli/Palestinian relationship is very complicated with enormous history, and claims by both sides. Just because you can't distinguish it from Russia/Ukraine doesn't mean others can't.
  - jedimind 5y ago
    1) Accusation of obsession with Israel - check 2) Classic both siding with a cute "we're just defending" and leaving out the constant colonisation and ethnic cleansing campaigns & apartheid[0] - check 3) "it's complicated" - check (it's not remotely complicated, plain old settler colonialism) The 1990s called, they want their hasbara back. [0] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apart...
    - metta2uall 5y ago
      It's actually not plain old settler colonialism because Jewish people are also the "indigenous" inhabitants of those lands - but instead of sharing them with the non-Jewish indigenous inhabitants (now called the "Palestinians") the militant Zionists have declared a "Jewish State" where they systematically discriminate against Palestinians (e.g. no right of return for non-Jews & hardly any building permits for non-Jews in the West Bank). Regarding bombings & war crimes, they have indeed been done by both sides. The crimes of Palestinian terrorists are obvious, but there is widespread denial & attempted justification of the IDF's crimes, hence the topic generates a lot of writing & debate. Examples of IDF crimes are the bombing of houses with many children in assassination missions (these are obviously not preceded by warning phone-calls) [0], and the shooting of Palestinian protestors at the Gaza fence who do not pose a risk to the lives of IDF soldiers.[1] The data ([2]) also speaks for itself. [0]: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entir... [1]: https://theintercept.com/2018/04/10/gaza-protests-palestine-israel-sniper-video/ https://theintercept.com/2018/04/10/gaza-protests-palestine-... [2]: https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=minors&tab=overview https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-...
sneak 5y ago
Perhaps we can take this time to stop having competitors in international competitions play under a national flag, as if they are property of a nation. The place one is born frequently has no bearing on one's personal identity. To always be associated with one's nationality (which we generally do not get to choose) seems exhausting and rude.
Consultant32452 5y ago
Muslim ban: bad Russian ban: good
moralestapia 5y ago
I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical values the average person has left. Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what they're made of not much more comes out of it. Without saying much about it, let me remind you that there is a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which, among other things, it's pretty clear that no one should be discriminated because of their origin or nationality. Every single "developed" country shares a set of laws that guarantee similar rights to their citizens (and visitors!). Whether you think that people who are in these situations are having their rights dishonored or not it's up to you, I just want to remind people that some blades cut both ways so one has to be careful about which one is being honed today. Disclaimer: I'm not Russian, never been to Russia, no friends in Russia either. I am a human being and have empathy for all other fellow human beings.
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- throwaway5752 5y ago
  This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 edition of the event" It is not fair to talk about "civic and ethical values" outside of this extremely relevant moral context.
  - throwaway5754 5y ago
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throwaway5752 5y ago
Russian nationals and teams have been removed from FIFA, IHL, and many other competitions. It isn't fair, but it isn't fair that Ukraine has had its sovereignty violated by an unprovoked invasion. It is intrinsically biased to vet individuals based on their personal political beliefs, that seems like it would be worse. So the alternatives are to allow Russian nationals / national teams or to not allow them. These are extraordinary circumstances so I reluctantly support exclusions, and am deeply saddened by them. It would be so beneficial to everyone if this horrible invasion ceased and the Russian army withdrew from Ukraine. They should stop killing innocent people for the goal of territorial expansion, and then the world can renormalize as quickly as possible.
- lionkor 5y ago
  It wasn't an unprovoked invasion, and rarely any invasion is. I dont support it at all, but I want to point out that this was an avoidable and certainly provoked war.
  - dragonwriter 5y ago
    > It wasn't an unprovoked invasion, It was under the usual meaning of that phrase, which doesn't merely refer to anything that bugs the invader, but something rising to the level of a legal casus belli such that the invasion is not the crime of aggression. (It also occurred in 2014; the current crisis is an escalation of the invasion, not the initiation of the crime against peace.)
oh_sigh 5y ago
It's embarrassing the amount of individuals/corporations that are deciding to screw over random Russian citizens, who have a fairly good chance of not even supporting the war. The next time an Islamic terrorist attacks the US, let's use this as precedent for denying random Muslims access to civic culture across the globe. Lovely world we're building.
- lionkor 5y ago
  Grammarly stopped working today for Russians, which just makes some people's jobs over there harder. If anyone knows a good alternative (other than LanguageTool), let me know
s_dev 5y ago
Russians are complaining, that it is not "fair" to put economic and social sanctions on them. "After all, it is our government, not us, who started this war" they say. Thats okay Russians. We didn't put on the sanctions. Our governments did -- so that argument is a two way street if you want to engage in bad faith arguments.
cool_dude85 5y ago
Glad to see Norway Chess taking a principled stand against those representing countries who have recently committed a serious war crime such as a war of aggression. Disappointed though to have a tournament without Sasha, Nepo, Svidler, Mamedyarov, Radjabov, So, Dominguez, Nakamura, Aronian, Gelfand, Firouzja, or Vachier-Lagrave. It'll be exciting to see who wins.
bob66 5y ago
jmpman 5y ago
He could move out of Russia, give up his Russian citizenship, and then play.
pvaldes 5y ago
This is probably the best that could happen to him and other relevant Russian athletes: If allowed to play will be exposed to a myriad of blood-thirsty journalists asking a chess player to talk about war. Would be asked, required and pressed thousands of times to speak against it or to clarity their position about it. Anything that he says will be politicized. 1) Can choose to talk against the war and Putin, be cheered for a few days and return to Russia, where will be immediately put in jail and silenced, or end in the ever increasing list of people assassinated in this last decades. Or face retaliation against their families... Losing option. 2) Or can choose to say that Putin is a genius and the war is necessary. Will alienate their fan-base, friends and sponsors and end this international career. The championship could be boycotted by furious people. So. Losing option again. Everybody loses (except Putin). At least will not root in a jail. 3) Trying to remain neutral wouldn't work. Remaining silent in the middle of a genocide is the same as supporting it. And their words will be most probably cherry-picked by journalists to make it appear as supporting one or the other option. So the only wining situation is not being allowed to play. Losing a championship or two and keeping a low profile for a while. Low price to pay for keeping his career and life relatively unscathed. Is not his fault if he can't be used as living advertising for the politics of Putin. Will not earn the contempt of other chess masters or the hate of the fans for an parallel event that can't control and wasn't looking for.
rosndo 5y ago
Note that this post isn’t really about Grischuk, rather the author is pissed about sanctions on Russian oligarchs. The last paragraph is incredibly revealing: > if those individuals are found guilty, and the process generates yacht seizure as the appropriate remedy, bring it on. But just taking the yachts without true due process? Nein, Danke. This is a criticism of the overall sanctions regime disguised as something else entirely. This person believes that Putins buddies assets should be left untouched.
joeman1000 5y ago
No, this is not unfair. Everyone should be made to squirm until innocent Ukrainians AREN’T being bombed in their apartments. The pressure should apply absolutely everywhere. This persons right to play some stupid chess is meaningless when his country is slaughtering innocent people indiscriminately.
- lupire 5y ago
  Then why aren't Norwegian chess players banned from chess pending the end of the war? Why do imaginary lines on map matter? Why is HN allowed to discuss anything except how to fight the Russian invasion? Grischuk doesn't own Russia, Putin does.
karencarits 5y ago
Some additional info: All those being excluded have received the message with understanding, according to Norway Chess. They will not take into concideration whether the participants have voiced criticism of the war or not, as Norway Chess cannot judge whether any individual is "sufficiently against" the war nor put anyone in a situation where they feel they have to take stance in the conflict (due to the participants' own safety) Source: https://www.tv2.no/a/14615113/ https://www.tv2.no/a/14615113/
StanislavPetrov 5y ago
Ironically those who are exhibiting the greatest outrage about the situation in Ukraine out of their deep concern for human rights are the ones cheering loudest for the pogrom against ethnic Russians around the world.

103 points by luu 5y ago

> But just taking the yachts without true due process? They're not. They're preventing the yacht from being moved or sold or serviced. It remains his property, and he's free to spend time on it.

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jeanlou 5y ago

The cancel culture is strong. What this war has made us understand is that some people are more equal than others, therefore, they have the privilege of standing on higher moral ground to impose upon the rest their two speed morality. We're seing the world for what it trully is.

starik36 5y ago

Understandable in light of sanctions against Russia. However, this truly sucks for him as an individual, particularly in light of what he had to say about the invasion. The man is truly pained. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFN0s53RpGY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFN0s53RpGY

yaseer 5y ago
Yeah that really sucks. It's understandable when the lines between state and individual are blurred - like with state sponsored doping of Olympic athletes, who are competing as part of a national organisation. But when it's an individual whose nationality just happens to be Russian? Seems more unfair, than just.
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encryptluks2 5y ago
It isn't understandable really. What is happening here is discrimination and can't be justified. Unless they have some proof that they are a spy or as an extension of Russian government for a dangerous intent, then there is no excuse. This is only going to create more conflict and tension, and generate hatred in people that would otherwise be neutral.
- mwt 5y ago
  -
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    Oh, please. Ethically, they should have a justification to their actions. If they get to kick people out for their nationality (when that person is not "representing" a nation) then I get to think they're foolish.
  - drugstorecowboy 5y ago
    Framing a rescinded invitation as discrimination is not a stretch at all, it very literally is discrimination. If you replace this definitely not discriminatory action against a Russian with a Black Man would you still support it?
- JumpCrisscross 5y ago
  > What is happening here is discrimination and can't be justified It is discrimination. And it's entirely justified. The same way when, if your friend stars a bar brawl, you all get kicked out. Only he should get e.g. arrested. But there's a big difference between not being able to compete for your country and getting shelled.
  - encryptluks2 5y ago
    Wow, so you believe people of color deserve discrimination because statistically they commit more violent crime?

endisneigh 5y ago

Gotta love how discrimination is so easily spread. Like, this guy has said very many times in public that he doesn’t support the invasion, but he’s Russian, y’know? It’s sad how humanity just keeps doing the same thing over and over…

imbnwa 5y ago
In the domain of Mixed Martial Arts there's a discussion over whether to permit Russian nationals to have fights, even though the majority of Russian nationals in MMA are from colonized ethnic groups who live in the southern Russian republics, e.g. Chechnya, Dagestan, etc. Amateur wrestling would be completely fucked if it were to conceive and follow through on such a ban given the hegemony in amateur wrestling these southern Russian republics hold there, particularly Dagestan.
- JaimeThompson 5y ago
  >Chechnya Even if the invasion had never happened boycotting Chechnya would have been acceptable given their previous actions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#LGBT_rights https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chechnya#LGBT_rights
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  - imbnwa 5y ago
    Sure, but that's independent of the current conversation while not being wrong in its own context.
version_five 5y ago
Agreed - I can't believe how quickly the "mainstream" had adopted a hatred basically of a whole people based on the actions of an autocratic leader that does not represent them, and where speaking out would almost certainly have very bad consequences. We should be doing everything we can to stop Putin from waging war, but casual hatred of a group is not helpful or appropriate, even if it's the obvious extension of all the online mob behavior we've seen in recent years.

jstx1 5y ago

Not sure why the title is about Grischuk specifically, Norway Chess banned all Russian players. Which sucks given that many of these players have spoken up against what Russia is doing. Seems like they're being penalized unnecessarily.

sandworm101 5y ago
The country is being punished. Countries are made up of people. In all likelihood no Russian will be untouched by these sanctions. The secondary motivation is that other players might drop out in protest. Look at what just happened to the Paralympics. The plan from on high was to keep the Russian team. It looks like it was complaints from the other athletes complaining that reversed decision.
- lionkor 5y ago
  Once Putin is gone, if there actually is some revolution, everyone in Russia has learned to have the deepest, most passionate hate towards the west and their undifferentiated discrimination. You are looking at removing Putin, who will, if democratically voted for, be replaced by someone even more extremist. Stop giving the working Russian people a reason to have the west. Give them hope, show them what life can be like, dont beat them down and scream at them.
amelius 5y ago
Karpov and Karjakin support Putin.
- jstx1 5y ago
  Sure, and Nepo, Grischuk, Svidler etc. don't. Norway Chess treats these two groups the same.
  - pastor_bob 5y ago
    are they supposed to vet individuals with a twitter litmus test? That, in some sense, seems worse.

voakbasda 5y ago

This sounds like throwing out the baby with the bath water. Zero tolerance is indistinguishable from intolerance.

sethbannon 5y ago

For those curious, Alexander Grischuk did put out a fairly strong statement of condemnation of the invasion: https://worldchess.com/news/all/alexander-grischuk-on-the-russias-invasion-of-ukraine-its-extrem/ https://worldchess.com/news/all/alexander-grischuk-on-the-ru... Pretty brave of him.

dandanua 5y ago
It does nothing. It's a statement for the west audience. He can't say the same in Russian for the Russian audience loudly. Because in this case he will be put in jail for years. Wake up, Russia is a fascists state. Which is on the blood run.
- ASalazarMX 5y ago
  Forbidding him to play chess also won't stop a single bullet or ruble destined to their war. This sudden Russian = Evil attitude is nonsensical, the Russian government and its oligarchy are the real evil, and they don't care for chess.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  So perhaps we should find the Russians in our own communities and punish them as well
rvz 5y ago
Looks like Norway Chess could not distinguish between the individual's view vs the views of the Russian Government and did an over-reactionary blanket ban on any Russian which is beyond stupid, even though he condemned it. Does that mean if say, Garry Kasparov was to play against another chess player, he should be banned even though he also condemned the invasion? Quite ridiculous tbh. Even Russian cats are banned [0], they don't have a view of the Russian governments actions on the invasion either and have nothing to do with it, except 'being from Russia'. Of course from them, there's no redemption. Anything Russian thrown into the lost and banned. To Downvoters: You do realise you can be Russian and be against the Russian government and condemn the whole invasion right? [0] https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1499289953443930113 https://twitter.com/nexta_tv/status/1499289953443930113

jdrc 5y ago

I hate it when a serious issue is dragged to the extreme in such distracting ways. Dostoyevski and chess players are not the problem , be smart

TomGullen 5y ago
Working class Russians are not the problem either, yet the sanctions penalise them the most.
- burmanm 5y ago
  And that usually plays to the advantage of the elite. Now the working class has only one supporter, the Russian government. Their propaganda of "west hates you" feels very real to them now. This is quite age old tactic that usually doesn't work, punishing civilians in the war usually does not demoralize them, but works against the aggressor. Same can be said about these sanctions. Why would they trust the west if we want to punish them and their only hope is their current administration?
  - unethical_ban 5y ago
    >Now the working class has only one supporter, the Russian government. They have only one enemy, the Russian government.
    - burmanm 5y ago
      > They have only one enemy, the Russian government. Do you think layman thinks the friend is the person who punishes them without them doing anything wrong? I find that seriously difficult to believe. Think about it yourself. You go to a nightclub and then the doorman says only you're not allowed, because your friends who just went in said you're not wanted. Do you still consider them as your friends and just think it's for your best? That's a very odd logic there.
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causi 5y ago

It's not about the chess players. It's about the little people who see the headline that another of their representatives is unwelcome, and about the powerful people who see one more way Russia is being shamed for its actions.

adenozine 5y ago
Sure, but what about the livelihoods of the people these actions affect more directly? What if he needs that chess money to pay his bills? It’s heavy handed, imo.
- causi 5y ago
  The proportionate response would be to start shelling Russian cities. Nothing short of that can be heavy-handed.
- have_faith 5y ago
  Do you apply the same logic to all of the banking sanctions that effect regular Russian people? should we not enact any sanctions that could in any way effect the value of the rouble for instance? as the whole country relies on it to pay their bills. People are dying, heavy handed measures are needed.
- brimble 5y ago
  Everyone in Russia is going to be hurting from this. Most of them don't really deserve it, but you can't bring an entire economy to its knees without harming everyone. It'd be kinda weird to single out chess masters to save from the pain, while a grandma on a fixed income is facing shortages and watching her already-meager buying power drop by the day, the low-level staff at various businesses are put on half-time or cut altogether and they'll be skipping meals to make rent, et c.
  - adenozine 5y ago
    I didn’t single them out; I highlighted this instance in my reply. I agree with you, and i sympathize for all working folk, everywhere, always, and forever. I was only meaning to point out that people who play chess for a living are technically working folk too, that’s all. The people of Russia must seize their nation back somehow, whether by means of diplomacy or other means, if necessary.

wedn3sday 5y ago

It doesnt matter if the person themselves opposes the Ukrainian invasion, the person is representing Russia. Is it the tournament organizers job to vet the political views of every single participant to make sure they're sufficiently anti-putin? Blocking Russian participants isnt about blocking the individual people, its about sending a blanket statement across the board.

jstx1 5y ago
They don't have to represent Russia, the organisers could let them play without the Russian flag next to the players name.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  Everyone still thinks of them as representing Russia though, especially if you just let them be called "Russian Olympic Committee" or similar. Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. There's no way around it, we all already know where they are from, regardless of what they think of the war.
  - jstx1 5y ago
    > Even if they were under a neutral flag everyone would think of the person as Russian. Yeah because they're from Russia. I just don't see how "people will think" is enough of a reason to ban them from playing an event. (1) Some deranged person running Russia decided to invade Ukraine, kill innocent people and ruin millions of lives. (2) A chess organization in Norway bans a player because they were born in the same country as the deranged person from above. I don't get how (2) is an appropriate response to (1) or how it helps anyone. It's not a deterrent, it's not any kind of response - nobody in the Russian government will feel the tiniest bit of pressure because of it, it's such a token act that it's laughable to think about in the context of what's happening in Ukraine. At the same time it's a big deal to the handful of players it affects. All this does is create publicity and make the careers of a few people significantly worse just because they happened to be born in the wrong country.

harshreality 5y ago

This initially may seem like unproductive, mistargeted overreaction. However, consider that if Russians can't do what they want to do, maybe they'll focus more efforts on fixing their country so it stops the invasion and doesn't do something like this ever again. It may not work, but every Russian needs to be thinking about that, with priority over their jobs and hobbies. Making things painful for them is one way to do that. It's terrible for people whose jobs are directly affected, but the situation is even worse for Ukrainians.

agency 5y ago
Imagine if Americans were held to the same standard with respect to the American invasion and occupation of Iraq.
- harshreality 5y ago
  I'm not going to defend America's military adventurism, but do you really see no difference between a limited military campaign against a brutal dictator (and yes, partially over control of oil) vs a campaign to take over a bordering, more-democratic country for mythological ethic reasons, including by shelling cities?
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    Are you suggesting killing innocent people is somehow more righteous if a the area is not democratic? Didn't the USA carpet bomb many places in the Middle East with drones? Again, not to create a false equivalency but I believe the OPs point is that shouldn’t Americans be ostracized?
    - harshreality 5y ago
      Killing people isn't righteous. It is, however, more acceptable or tolerable depending on the context and military force and tactics used. Blame what you want, but what percentage of the UN and UN security council denounced American actions? What percentage denounce Russia's current actions?

amelius 5y ago

https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/t0av3a/this_may_not_be_directly_related_to_chess_but_i/ https://www.reddit.com/r/chess/comments/t0av3a/this_may_not_...

buzzdenver 5y ago

It is a sucky situation without any perfect solutions. Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Judging everyone based on their individual reactions to the invasion is just not a scalable solution, and probably also puts those who speak out in greater danger.

bloak 5y ago
> Banning all Russian athletes is a clear decision. Yes, it would be clear if you define "Russian". Do you mean everyone who currently holds a Russian passport? Everyone who has at some point held a Russian passport? What about someone who used to have a Soviet passport with their nationality recorded in it as "Russian" but who didn't live in Russia? What about people who used to have a Soviet passport and lived in Russia but with a different nationality in their documents? (Apparently Russian passports up until around 1997 had a "nationality" field, like the old Soviet passports, so you could have a Russian passport with your nationality recorded as something other than Russian. Presumably you could officially be a Ukrainian citizen of Russia, for example. It wouldn't surprise me if some of the other former Soviet states also record nationality so you might be able to have a passport from Kazakhstan or Latvia that says "Russian" in it. I would hope, however, that nobody is seriously thinking of banning "Russians" while defining "Russians" to include people who have never had either a Soviet or a Russian passport.) EDIT: I would guess that you'd probably want to define "Russian" for these purposes as someone who currently has a Russian passport, but perhaps it's not totally obvious that that's the right answer?
- buzzdenver 5y ago
  Any chess players who played under the Russian flag before the invasion. I don't know the exact details in chess, but in most sports you have to declare a country when participating in top level sports. For example dual citizens cannot just switch between playing for any country's national team that they are a citizen of.
  - bloak 5y ago
    Cannot "just" switch? What's that mean, exactly? Surely there is some kind of a procedure for people to change their "sports" nationality if they really have emigrated and so on? (You might think of having a rule that you can only change your "sports" nationality if you "renounce" your previous citizenship, but it many cases it's not possible to "renounce" citizenship: you can let your passport expire, but whatever condition, such as place of birth, allowed you to apply for that passport in the first place would still exist so you would continue to have the option of receiving a passport for the previous country if you ever wanted to apply for one. Moreover, it would be impossible for you to prove you hadn't done that because countries do not, as a rule, issue documents to certify that a given person does not have a valid passport!)

shtopointo 5y ago

What’s with all these cancellations of Russian citizens? Surely this is not going to look good at the end of this war, and it’ll just be more propaganda for the Russian gov’t to use - “look, the west doesn’t care about you”. Is this just “cancel culture” exposed in a different area?

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roveo 5y ago
Yeah, I think this time period will be called "The Great Cancelling of Russia" in the history books.

slg 5y ago

Sanctions are often universal rather than person specific. Grischuk isn't being banned for his specific political beliefs. He is being banned as an action against his country. Some of the ways we punish that country are by punishing its people. It doesn't mean the people receiving that punishment are guilty of anything, it is just the method of putting pressure on that country's government to reverse course. This is true of basically all sanctions against Russia whether is is something symbolic like preventing athletes from competing under a Russian flag, something general like trade sanctions, or something very specific such as seizing a yacht of an oligarch. These all hurt specific people in varying ways that isn't proportional with those people's personal politics or guilt in the actions of the Russian government.

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postalrat 5y ago
So there is no reason Alexander Grischuk should comment about the conflict. He has nothing to gain and everything to lose.
- slg 5y ago
  It is questionable morally to only comment on this situation in a way designed to personally benefit you.
  - ncann 5y ago
    It's bad when you word it like that, but change it to "in a way designed to prevent you and your loved ones from great harm" and suddenly it's very understandable.
    - slg 5y ago
      Then simply don't comment if that is the fear.

chomp 5y ago

Can we get the link updated to the official statement? https://norwaychess.no/en/2022/03/02/russian-participation/ https://norwaychess.no/en/2022/03/02/russian-participation/ The article is an opinion piece that's inaccurately framed in that it's not the specific canceling of an individual (and cats), but solidarity with sanctions placed on Russia.

somenameforme 5y ago

This is getting really stupid. Anytime there is some major event we always work to try to ensure that people appreciate there is a difference between the people of a country and the bad actors of a country - even when those bad actors are the government. But now because it's our favorite geopolitical enemy, everything goes out the window. Imagine if the victims of our wars (or their partners) were more influential and were able to effectively spread global messages of arbitrary hate and intolerance against people simply for being American. And not mob mentality from extremists and radicals already predispositioned to hate, but orchestrated top-down hatred and intolerance from the "liberal" world order. This is not going to spark some amazing revolution of frustrated chess players, disabled athletes, and cat show enthusiasts. The only thing this sort of stuff is doing is driving more hatred and division, and helping us inch that much closer to WW3. Putin invading Ukraine was a terrible decision; many Russians of all walks of lives oppose it. Yet they're at least as helpless to ever change any of it than we are to end our never-ending wars in the Mideast since we, at least in theory, could stop voting for warmongers.

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ALittleLight 5y ago
I don't understand the people who object to these tactics. It would simply be a good thing if Americans were reviled for waging wars of aggression on other states. That would mean fewer people in the US would support wars and there would be fewer wars. That would be good. It's at least worth a shot. Adam Smith wrote - "In great empires the people who live in the capital, and in the provinces remote from the scene of action, feel, many of them, scarce any inconvenience from the war; but enjoy, at their ease, the amusement of reading in the newspapers the exploits of their own fleets and armies. To them this amusement compensates the small difference between the taxes which they pay on account of the war, and those which they had been accustomed to pay in time of peace. They are commonly dissatisfied with the return of peace, which puts an end to their amusement, and to a thousand visionary hopes of conquest and national glory from a longer continuance of the war." In other words, war is kind of fun and exciting for a populace that doesn't feel harm from it. I remember watching stories of the invasion of Iraq, and it seemed a lot like that to me. The media and the country generally enjoying the exploits of our armies. Well, we can balance that enjoyment by a dissatisfaction of denying other pleasures to the population. No more chess, international sports, travel, etc. The complaint here should not be that this is being done to Russia, it should be. You're justified to complain that America was not made a pariah, but that's a different kind of complaint.

themodelplumber 5y ago

The Russian diplomatic corps and information operations teams are taking advantage of the emotional signaling power of the word "cancel" to attempt to manipulate the American right, with whom the word resonates as their world seems to unfairly change around them. If you want to be taken seriously as a nuanced thinker, rather than a sketchy what-abouter trying to yank people around, I wouldn't use that word. Prediction: https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1498441260499017733 https://twitter.com/GeorgeTakei/status/1498441260499017733 Outcome 1: https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1499041366696992772 https://twitter.com/travisakers/status/1499041366696992772 Outcome 2: https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/1499421918629404681 https://twitter.com/PaulSonne/status/1499421918629404681

JohnTHaller 5y ago
To put it flippantly: Propagandists gonna propagandize. Don't help propagandists.

privatdozent 5y ago

Not what happened though. They removed all Russian players, out of solidarity with Ukraine. That includes Svidler and Nepo, who are both critical of Putin and the invasion. As was Chucky!

agambrahma 5y ago

Eh, punishing individuals like this seems pointless, especially _after_ they've made their personal stance clear. Or at least, it doesn't "advance the game of chess", which is what organizers should care more about. There is probably some creative middle ground to be found here, such as awarding them without recognizing Russia, etc.

Mo3 5y ago
Yeah giving them the EU passports and just attributing them to „EU“
- seszett 5y ago
  There is no "EU passport", just 27 national passports that also have "European Union" written next to the issuing country. It's only up to individual countries to issue their passports, also Norway isn't in the EU anyway.
  - Mo3 5y ago
    I am referring to the EUs plans to issue passports. I'm not informed beyond having heard this.
- dahfizz 5y ago
  Neither Russia, Ukraine, or Norway are in the EU. You may as well make them play for Madagascar; it makes no sense.
toolslive 5y ago
They have been creative in the past too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1990#Flag_controversy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_1990#...
- lupire 5y ago
  It happened just 3 months ago when Nepo played while Russia was under sanctions. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_2021 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_Chess_Championship_202... and of course the same thing happened in the Olympics a few weeks ago!

bjourne 5y ago

But Saudi Arabia can bomb Yemen for years and Israel Palestine for decades without repercussions? I'm all for sanctions against Russia but the hypocrisy here is so thick you couldn't cut it with a knife.

ars 5y ago
Are you obsessed with Israel or something? This isn't the first time I've seen your comments about Israel, and your submission history is just full of this topic. Israel isn't "bombing Palestinies for decades". They're fighting back when Palestinians attack them (why did you gloss over Palestinians bombing Israel?), then there's quiet for a while, and then more fighting. The Israeli/Palestinian relationship is very complicated with enormous history, and claims by both sides. Just because you can't distinguish it from Russia/Ukraine doesn't mean others can't.
- jedimind 5y ago
  1) Accusation of obsession with Israel - check 2) Classic both siding with a cute "we're just defending" and leaving out the constant colonisation and ethnic cleansing campaigns & apartheid[0] - check 3) "it's complicated" - check (it's not remotely complicated, plain old settler colonialism) The 1990s called, they want their hasbara back. [0] https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apartheid-against-palestinians-a-cruel-system-of-domination-and-a-crime-against-humanity/ https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2022/02/israels-apart...
  - metta2uall 5y ago
    It's actually not plain old settler colonialism because Jewish people are also the "indigenous" inhabitants of those lands - but instead of sharing them with the non-Jewish indigenous inhabitants (now called the "Palestinians") the militant Zionists have declared a "Jewish State" where they systematically discriminate against Palestinians (e.g. no right of return for non-Jews & hardly any building permits for non-Jews in the West Bank). Regarding bombings & war crimes, they have indeed been done by both sides. The crimes of Palestinian terrorists are obvious, but there is widespread denial & attempted justification of the IDF's crimes, hence the topic generates a lot of writing & debate. Examples of IDF crimes are the bombing of houses with many children in assassination missions (these are obviously not preceded by warning phone-calls) [0], and the shooting of Palestinian protestors at the Gaza fence who do not pose a risk to the lives of IDF soldiers.[1] The data ([2]) also speaks for itself. [0]: https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entire-palestinian-families-hamas-1.9820005 https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/gaza-israel-wiping-entir... [1]: https://theintercept.com/2018/04/10/gaza-protests-palestine-israel-sniper-video/ https://theintercept.com/2018/04/10/gaza-protests-palestine-... [2]: https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-incident?section=minors&tab=overview https://statistics.btselem.org/en/all-fatalities/by-date-of-...

sneak 5y ago

Perhaps we can take this time to stop having competitors in international competitions play under a national flag, as if they are property of a nation. The place one is born frequently has no bearing on one's personal identity. To always be associated with one's nationality (which we generally do not get to choose) seems exhausting and rude.

Consultant32452 5y ago

Muslim ban: bad Russian ban: good

moralestapia 5y ago

I am always deeply disappointed with how little civic and ethical values the average person has left. Whenever the common narrative finds a way to blame something or someone, the collective dehumanizes the target in a way that's quite terrifying, actually. People love to parrot about how "dictators are bad", "hitler was bad", etc, but when they find themselves in trivial situations where they have to show what they're made of not much more comes out of it. Without saying much about it, let me remind you that there is a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, which, among other things, it's pretty clear that no one should be discriminated because of their origin or nationality. Every single "developed" country shares a set of laws that guarantee similar rights to their citizens (and visitors!). Whether you think that people who are in these situations are having their rights dishonored or not it's up to you, I just want to remind people that some blades cut both ways so one has to be careful about which one is being honed today. Disclaimer: I'm not Russian, never been to Russia, no friends in Russia either. I am a human being and have empathy for all other fellow human beings.

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throwaway5752 5y ago
This is in reaction to a much greater moral outrage: thousands of dead Ukrainian civilians because of an unprovoked Russian invasion. One can either 1) sanction Russia (which impacts all Russians) 2) partially sanction (which is unavoidably subjective and abusable) or 3) not sanction Russia. This is a case of 1, based on the source link, "Norway announce that no Russian players will be able to play in the 2022 edition of the event" It is not fair to talk about "civic and ethical values" outside of this extremely relevant moral context.
- throwaway5754 5y ago
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throwaway5752 5y ago

Russian nationals and teams have been removed from FIFA, IHL, and many other competitions. It isn't fair, but it isn't fair that Ukraine has had its sovereignty violated by an unprovoked invasion. It is intrinsically biased to vet individuals based on their personal political beliefs, that seems like it would be worse. So the alternatives are to allow Russian nationals / national teams or to not allow them. These are extraordinary circumstances so I reluctantly support exclusions, and am deeply saddened by them. It would be so beneficial to everyone if this horrible invasion ceased and the Russian army withdrew from Ukraine. They should stop killing innocent people for the goal of territorial expansion, and then the world can renormalize as quickly as possible.

lionkor 5y ago
It wasn't an unprovoked invasion, and rarely any invasion is. I dont support it at all, but I want to point out that this was an avoidable and certainly provoked war.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > It wasn't an unprovoked invasion, It was under the usual meaning of that phrase, which doesn't merely refer to anything that bugs the invader, but something rising to the level of a legal casus belli such that the invasion is not the crime of aggression. (It also occurred in 2014; the current crisis is an escalation of the invasion, not the initiation of the crime against peace.)

oh_sigh 5y ago

It's embarrassing the amount of individuals/corporations that are deciding to screw over random Russian citizens, who have a fairly good chance of not even supporting the war. The next time an Islamic terrorist attacks the US, let's use this as precedent for denying random Muslims access to civic culture across the globe. Lovely world we're building.

lionkor 5y ago
Grammarly stopped working today for Russians, which just makes some people's jobs over there harder. If anyone knows a good alternative (other than LanguageTool), let me know

s_dev 5y ago

Russians are complaining, that it is not "fair" to put economic and social sanctions on them. "After all, it is our government, not us, who started this war" they say. Thats okay Russians. We didn't put on the sanctions. Our governments did -- so that argument is a two way street if you want to engage in bad faith arguments.

cool_dude85 5y ago

Glad to see Norway Chess taking a principled stand against those representing countries who have recently committed a serious war crime such as a war of aggression. Disappointed though to have a tournament without Sasha, Nepo, Svidler, Mamedyarov, Radjabov, So, Dominguez, Nakamura, Aronian, Gelfand, Firouzja, or Vachier-Lagrave. It'll be exciting to see who wins.

bob66 5y ago

jmpman 5y ago

He could move out of Russia, give up his Russian citizenship, and then play.

pvaldes 5y ago

This is probably the best that could happen to him and other relevant Russian athletes: If allowed to play will be exposed to a myriad of blood-thirsty journalists asking a chess player to talk about war. Would be asked, required and pressed thousands of times to speak against it or to clarity their position about it. Anything that he says will be politicized. 1) Can choose to talk against the war and Putin, be cheered for a few days and return to Russia, where will be immediately put in jail and silenced, or end in the ever increasing list of people assassinated in this last decades. Or face retaliation against their families... Losing option. 2) Or can choose to say that Putin is a genius and the war is necessary. Will alienate their fan-base, friends and sponsors and end this international career. The championship could be boycotted by furious people. So. Losing option again. Everybody loses (except Putin). At least will not root in a jail. 3) Trying to remain neutral wouldn't work. Remaining silent in the middle of a genocide is the same as supporting it. And their words will be most probably cherry-picked by journalists to make it appear as supporting one or the other option. So the only wining situation is not being allowed to play. Losing a championship or two and keeping a low profile for a while. Low price to pay for keeping his career and life relatively unscathed. Is not his fault if he can't be used as living advertising for the politics of Putin. Will not earn the contempt of other chess masters or the hate of the fans for an parallel event that can't control and wasn't looking for.

rosndo 5y ago

Note that this post isn’t really about Grischuk, rather the author is pissed about sanctions on Russian oligarchs. The last paragraph is incredibly revealing: > if those individuals are found guilty, and the process generates yacht seizure as the appropriate remedy, bring it on. But just taking the yachts without true due process? Nein, Danke. This is a criticism of the overall sanctions regime disguised as something else entirely. This person believes that Putins buddies assets should be left untouched.

joeman1000 5y ago

No, this is not unfair. Everyone should be made to squirm until innocent Ukrainians AREN’T being bombed in their apartments. The pressure should apply absolutely everywhere. This persons right to play some stupid chess is meaningless when his country is slaughtering innocent people indiscriminately.

lupire 5y ago
Then why aren't Norwegian chess players banned from chess pending the end of the war? Why do imaginary lines on map matter? Why is HN allowed to discuss anything except how to fight the Russian invasion? Grischuk doesn't own Russia, Putin does.

karencarits 5y ago

Some additional info: All those being excluded have received the message with understanding, according to Norway Chess. They will not take into concideration whether the participants have voiced criticism of the war or not, as Norway Chess cannot judge whether any individual is "sufficiently against" the war nor put anyone in a situation where they feel they have to take stance in the conflict (due to the participants' own safety) Source: https://www.tv2.no/a/14615113/ https://www.tv2.no/a/14615113/

StanislavPetrov 5y ago

Ironically those who are exhibiting the greatest outrage about the situation in Ukraine out of their deep concern for human rights are the ones cheering loudest for the pogrom against ethnic Russians around the world.