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Russian central bank confirms block on foreign bids to sell Russian securities

198 points by BbzzbB 5y ago

dynamohk 5y ago
potential scenario would be savings over ~$100k in a bank account would be seized.
dheera 5y ago
- andy_ppp 5y ago
  Yeah I was thinking about this - surely the incentives for Russians to buy crypto just went through the roof? Is it worth anyone's money to receive rubles in exchange though.
  - stefan_ 5y ago
    So you can have a Ruble-like crash of your investment every 3 months with Bitcoin? Have any of the clowns suggesting crypto like a broken record ever looked at a 1yr chart of that?
  - vbezhenar 5y ago
    Why would you buy crypto when you can buy bucks or euros?
    - chrisco255 5y ago
      I dunno, ask a Canadian trucker?
      - malermeister 5y ago
        Oh yes, let's ask the crazy conspiracy people terrorizing Canadian cities for advice.
        throw_m239339 5y ago
        I think that the point is, Canada has demonstrated that, by using laws allegedly designed to combat terrorism, governments can easily cease FIAT assets and accounts from political opponents... or everybody.
        Majestic121 5y ago
        I think the underlying point is not about the actual Canadian truckers, but the fact that Canadian truckers got all their donations canceled by a central authority. You might think that the central authority was right because the truckers were all 'crazy conspiracy people', but the underlying point remain : if you're in a line of politics that can get you on the wrong side of a central authority that can stop you, might be better to go for solutions that are less dependent on central authorities.
        rvz 5y ago
        Indeed. Towards what the GP comment was saying, maybe they need to ask how this road to hell was paved with good intentions? Especially for cryptocurrencies, Signal and the internet. The same technology used by Ukraine donators is also used by terrorists, criminals and extremists. Maybe ask why they use it? Or even in the case for Signal, the same users who want privacy and want to chat securely and send MobileCoin to each other, the same extremists are doing just that on Signal and financing their criminal activities with MobileCoin to each other; with that being completely untraceable. All these libertarian technologies can be used by anybody, including the 'crazy conspiracy people' which some of them once thought that mass-surveillance was happening to everyone vs those who said: 'If you have nothing to fear, you have nothing to hide'. Those 'crazy conspiracy people' they speak of built those tools and it's a double-edged sword since anyone can use them.
        spinny 5y ago
        nahhh. ask on HN.Don't forget that your rainbow flavored dildo is delivered by truck. Hope you can drive one. HONK HONK CRY MORE
        5y ago
      - dang 5y ago
        Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. Edit: We've had to ask you this more than once before, and ban accounts that don't stop, so please stop. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
  - have_faith 5y ago
    So they can use the crypto to buy what? dollars?
    - ur-whale 5y ago
      > So they can use the crypto to buy what? dollars? Exchange oil for BTC. Use obtained BTC to buy other commodities from willing partners (which - has to be said - there might not be many left). Bypass traditional currencies entirely.
      - umeshunni 5y ago
        Ironically, the countries that Russia would have been able to trade with in BTC (China, India etc) are the countries that are most resistant to crypto.
        smoe 5y ago
        Also countries with whom they can just use CIPS, the Chinese alternative to SWIFT. Seems much more straightforward than crypto for most.
        from 5y ago
        This is because major countries with their own currencies do not like having dollarized economies. Trade with the west could be done in BTC because there is no blanket prohibition on business with Russia just mostly their financial institutions. Promoting CIPS is probably the best option.
      - pishpash 5y ago
        They can just trade in yuan or rupees then. What does BTC provide additionally?
      - Gertioj 5y ago
        The companies buying need to make it transparent and if there is not enough criminal energy there is no way they would do this.
- user432678 5y ago
  Why would you buy Russian securities for bitcoins? I mean literally? You buy securities for profit. In current political situation buying anything from Russia is more like making a donation to terrorist organisation. So why anyone on Earth will be doing that?
  - laurent92 5y ago
    What do you think about selling software with Russia? I’m unbalanced between taking their money for my software, or not taking that money and it stays in Russia and they’ll hack my software…
    - older 5y ago
      If your software cannot be used to kill people I think it is ok to sell (as long as you get paid in USD/EUR/etc. Just do not buy anything.
  - from 5y ago
    Because great companies can be bought for pennies on the dollar? It’s irrelevant now because they’re trying to prevent foreigners from selling and the sanctions are probably going to get worse but if I was a Russian with good savings I would probably buy. It’s unlikely that there will be any actual war in Russia itself which means the aluminum plants pipelines etc should be fine (although maybe limited in who they can trade with).
  - dheera 5y ago
    > In current political situation buying anything from Russia is more like making a donation to terrorist organisation. I don't agree with that statement. (a) Russian stocks have crashed hard already, and if you believe war is already priced in, you could buy in low, sell high at a later date, and donate proceeds to Ukraine rebuilding efforts, effectively creating a Russia->Ukraine money funnel (b) Putin might be a terrorist, but most Russian civilian businesses are most certainly not. Many of them don't support attacking Ukraine, as evidenced by the numerous protests in Russia, and likely a whole lot of other people that would protest but are afraid to. The way I see it, "Russia" isn't attacking Ukraine, a corrupt leader of Russia is.
- 5350-uiop-1130 5y ago
  since when has the market responded to macro fundamentals in a rational manner
- chaoz_ 5y ago
  Don't forget that legal way to buy Bitcoin is through the certified exchanges that require ID verification. Meaning, these certified exchanges will comply with all the sanctions and getting money back in your bank might not be trivial and risky.
  - disruptalot 5y ago
    Where is it illegal to exchange assets p2p? Or better yet, what is the enforcement history?
    - blibble 5y ago
      attempting to bust sanctions on a public ledger would be pretty stupid
      - pishpash 5y ago
        Public but pseudonymous.
        WJW 5y ago
        With a vast graph containing every wallet and exchange you ever traded with. The onramps to crypto are becoming more and more monitored by law enforcement agencies to the point that remaining pseudonymous is beyond all but the most paranoid.
    - chaoz_ 5y ago
      I am saying that conversion back to RUB (actually something you can use to pay for gas/food/rent) is still going to be problematic. Meaning that you're supposed to pay tax and if amount of money is somewhat significant, you might get your bank account auto-blocked. LocalBitcoins is blocked, but there are still analogues (not with greatest rate, but anyway). Russia <-> Crypto relationship is complicated and recently Central Bank proposed additional restrictions, but its not approved yet. https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/russian-cbank-proposes-banning-cryptocurrencies-crypto-mining-2022-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/russian-cbank-propo...
- allisdust 5y ago
  Ironically, Russian central bank recommended complete ban of crypto like 3 weeks back while their finance ministry was pushing to make it more main stream. I guess people at the Central bank didn't get the memo about the rogue invasion. Its the same story in many countries including India, EU, IMF. Central banks don't see beyond their own noses when it comes to also taking geopolitics into account. Seems like they all study the same stale theories in universities and give the same stale recommendations.
  - AniseAbyss 5y ago
    The job of the Russian central bank is to safeguard the Russian economy. It reminds me of German civil servants who ran the numbers and advised Hitler that the country was going to lose. Recommendations are worthless when politicians ignore them and declare war anyway.
    - Aurelius3 5y ago
      >It reminds me of German civil servants who ran the numbers and advised Hitler that the country was going to lose. Recommendations are worthless when politicians ignore them and declare war anyway. Source on this? Sounds interesting.
- ngold 5y ago
  Unless oligarchs need massive amounts of dollars fast? Then it just becomes a run on the bank. Like middle class russia is waiting for at ms to run dry. Such a bummer for everyone.
- misja111 5y ago
  Bitcoin not, but CHF went up a lot this morning. But I suspect that this is more related to the exclusion of some Russian banks from Swift.
  - M2Ys4U 5y ago
    I wouldn't expect that to last long; Switzerland have said they're planning to join the list of countries sanctioning the Russian regime.
    - smoe 5y ago
      Swiss government just anounced in a press conference, that they will implement the EU sanctions. Accounts of the listed persons would be frozen effective immediately.
    - nradov 5y ago
      Cash Swiss francs remain a popular way for Eastern Europeans to save and hide wealth. This demand can impact the exchange rate even with sanctions in place.
      - xxs 5y ago
        >a popular way for Eastern Europeans to save and hide wealth Save - I'd not think it's not a popular instrument, and it's hard to buy lots of it. (Technically you can trade it as forex and the let the position open?). Hide - as in "cash under the blanket": 1) moving cash in the EU is regulated (ie 10k euro), and to do that they'd have to have an account in CHF send money (in any other currency to), and then withdraw in cash. I am not sure how many banks offer CHF accounts outside Switzerland.
- shafyy 5y ago
  I really don't understand what I'm missing here: How the fuck are cryptos useful to Russian or Ukranian people right now? I mean, they can't buy stuff with it (you know, like food), and if you exchange it to Ruble, why not start with Ruble in the first place? I know that Ruble will be in a free fall, but cryptos are not stable either. So it's like buying Ruble, but with extra steps.
  - davidwritesbugs 5y ago
    Extra steps, and extra fees, and the risk of exchanges. So I don't think you're missing anything. It's Bitcoin maximalist economic nonsense.
    - lostmsu 5y ago
      At this point alternatives also include significant risks.
  - Tenoke 5y ago
    I expect it's easy to send funds via crypto to and from there and regardless of sanctions from the west. It's unlikely to be the only solution even after swift and other bans but it's an easyish extra option, especially for those already familiar with the ecosystem.
    - shafyy 5y ago
      Ok, let's say it is easier and cheaper to send funds via crypto (which I'd argue is not generally the case). I'm a Russian in Russia and somebody sent me some Bitcoin. What do I do next to use this money?
      - Tenoke 5y ago
        Localbitcoin/local crypto/localmonero and similar (e.g. asking at a crypto meetup forum) are an option if bank transfers don't work. Bitcoin ATMs if you really are in a hurry and willing to take a potentially high exchange rate hit. Otherwise there's exchanges which still operate within Russia for the time being and some business (tho too rare to be useful but In a big city, if you don't have funds others than what was sent to you, you might be able to buy more than otherwise) accept it though I wouldn't rely on that too much unless you know a specific one.
- Gareth321 5y ago
  I think you're directionally correct. It's too late for Russia to amass any amount of BTC to mitigate sanctions. They need to exchange something of value for the BTC, and right now, everything they own is worthless or (figuratively) radioactive. However, every time currencies, banks, and payment systems are disrupted, demand increases for alternative trade and transfer mechanisms.
andylynch 5y ago
I’m curious to know how this will effect BP’s announced divestment of its stake in Rosneft this morning.
- misja111 5y ago
  Me too. Does this make it impossible for BP to step out of the shareholding with Rosneft?
  - miohtama 5y ago
    For BP, their Rosneft stake goes to zero in one way or another. The local oligarchs will take over the operation, like factories and employees, and kick out any foreigners that still have boots on the ground. They are not going to ask or call BP. It does not matter what paper agreements say, as most of legal frameworks will throw out from the window during the time of a war.
- gnfargbl 5y ago
  BP are going to resign from the board of Rosneft and stop taking dividends. As far as I can tell they aren't planning to try and sell their equity at this time, instead they will be "treating it now as a financial asset". [1] https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/press-releases/bp-to-exit-rosneft-shareholding.html https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/pre...
  - ur-whale 5y ago
    Independent of what it is worth, I don't think it will remain their share for very long.
eps 5y ago
One of the parlament members floated the idea of seizing (*) people's savings to offset the effects of the sanctions. Though "floated" doesn't quite capture it - he apparently "explained" that this will be necessary and "reminded" that the government will have no choice but to "arrest" the savings of Russians to deal with the crisis. To a question of whether these funds will be repaid, he said that it'll take several generations to to do so, at which point it will all be eaten by an inflation. They are all puppets, so it doesn't matter who said it exactly and in which context. It's the message that matters. And the message is chilling. https://news.ru/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmozhnuyu-konfiskaciyu-sberezhenij-rossiyan/ https://news.ru/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmoz... * fixed the typo, kudos to rob74
- marvin 5y ago
  Would a smart and well-connected Russian keep their savings as a Ruble deposit in a russian bank? It’s too late now, but I’d like to imagine that some individuals kept their stock market savings with international broners.
  - miohtama 5y ago
    That's why a lot of sanctions go against oligarchs in a person. It is more discriminate and does not matter what kind of property they have. For example, oligarchs Italian villas https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-targets-three-oligarchs-and-five-russian-banks-in-first-tranche-of-new-sanctions/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-target... The rationale is that you cannot do both support a dictator and plunder your own people, and then enjoy the benefits of European lifestyle without European rule of law based justice.
    - posix_me_less 5y ago
      > rule of law based justice What other kinds of justice are there? In Russia they do not have law based justice?
      - 5y ago
daneel_w 5y ago
I know nothing about money except how to save and how to spend them. Can someone explain the gist of what "securities" are and what the goal of blocking specifically sales of them is?
- misja111 5y ago
  Securities are company shares. The goal of blocking foreigners from selling them is more or less to confiscate the money that they paid to own those shares.
  - wcoenen 5y ago
    It's not just company shares. Bonds and derivatives are also securities.
    - nickles 5y ago
      Derivatives are not securities and are regulated differently. For example, futures are regulated by CFTC in the US.
      - wcoenen 5y ago
        I was going off the investopedia definition, which claims warrants and convertible bonds are securities [1]. As far as I understand, those are a type of derivative. But I hadn't understood that some other types of derivatives are not considered securities. It all makes a bit less sense to me now... [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/security.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/security.asp
  - Lendal 5y ago
    Yeah this is how I understand it. The goal for Putin is to steal as much as possible while he still can from the only people in the world who believed in him, the people who invested in Russian securities over the past two decades.
- einarfd 5y ago
fuoqi 5y ago
I will repeat my previous comment. Looks like a reasonable response to "freezing" (read, seizing) assets of the Central Bank of Russia and the credit rating downgrades. Not only it plays role of deterrence to some extent (destabilize our markets and your investors will suffer), but also significantly limits amount of liquidity which will be able to leave the Russian market, thus helping to support their currency. Note that even with the old exchange rate Russia was able to accumulate sizable reserves. Now it not only spends its liquefiable foreign assets, but also introduced requirement for exporters to convert into rubles 80% of their foreign revenue.
boringg 5y ago
As a westerner I have some serious unease about this economic warfare that has really just kicked off. This is only going to create a significantly worse and more destabilized situation. I don't think this is going to cow Putin into behaving, more like send him into a rage. Overthrowing a regime through macroeconomic warfare doesn't sit well with me.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- lordleft 5y ago
  I sympathize but this is still better than direct war. The alternative is what -- allow Putin to run roughshod over Ukraine and expand his capacity to imperil our security?
  - boringg 5y ago
    Lots of options available to us. We just hit the nuclear economic warfare button - they are going to hit back hard and in many ways. Expect, at the very least, a lot of hacking security disruptions. Russia won't hold back anymore if we squeeze them like this. A trapped animal is the most dangerous one.
    - GeoAtreides 5y ago
      >Lots of options available to us Can you enumerate some of them?
      - boringg 5y ago
        Literally everything is possible - do you seriously want me to enumerate all the different possibilities to attack and/or pressure Russian interests by the US?
        engineeringwoke 5y ago
        Russia is the new sick man of Europe, ironically enough given the old Russian empire used the term originally to describe the aging Ottoman empire. They seem to be the only ones that can't see it. They don't have anything that anyone particularly wants anymore. Germany can switch to LNG. USA is net energy positive these days (although the shale might only last another 10-15 years). And finally nukes just aren't worth that much with MAD.
belter 5y ago
"Russia’s FX reserves slip from its grasp" https://www.ft.com/content/526ea75b-5b45-48d8-936d-dcc3cec102d8 https://www.ft.com/content/526ea75b-5b45-48d8-936d-dcc3cec10...

198 points by BbzzbB 5y ago

dynamohk 5y ago

potential scenario would be savings over ~$100k in a bank account would be seized.

dheera 5y ago

andy_ppp 5y ago
Yeah I was thinking about this - surely the incentives for Russians to buy crypto just went through the roof? Is it worth anyone's money to receive rubles in exchange though.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  So you can have a Ruble-like crash of your investment every 3 months with Bitcoin? Have any of the clowns suggesting crypto like a broken record ever looked at a 1yr chart of that?
- vbezhenar 5y ago
  Why would you buy crypto when you can buy bucks or euros?
  - chrisco255 5y ago
    I dunno, ask a Canadian trucker?
    - malermeister 5y ago
      Oh yes, let's ask the crazy conspiracy people terrorizing Canadian cities for advice.
      - throw_m239339 5y ago
        I think that the point is, Canada has demonstrated that, by using laws allegedly designed to combat terrorism, governments can easily cease FIAT assets and accounts from political opponents... or everybody.
      - Majestic121 5y ago
        I think the underlying point is not about the actual Canadian truckers, but the fact that Canadian truckers got all their donations canceled by a central authority. You might think that the central authority was right because the truckers were all 'crazy conspiracy people', but the underlying point remain : if you're in a line of politics that can get you on the wrong side of a central authority that can stop you, might be better to go for solutions that are less dependent on central authorities.
        rvz 5y ago
        Indeed. Towards what the GP comment was saying, maybe they need to ask how this road to hell was paved with good intentions? Especially for cryptocurrencies, Signal and the internet. The same technology used by Ukraine donators is also used by terrorists, criminals and extremists. Maybe ask why they use it? Or even in the case for Signal, the same users who want privacy and want to chat securely and send MobileCoin to each other, the same extremists are doing just that on Signal and financing their criminal activities with MobileCoin to each other; with that being completely untraceable. All these libertarian technologies can be used by anybody, including the 'crazy conspiracy people' which some of them once thought that mass-surveillance was happening to everyone vs those who said: 'If you have nothing to fear, you have nothing to hide'. Those 'crazy conspiracy people' they speak of built those tools and it's a double-edged sword since anyone can use them.
      - spinny 5y ago
        nahhh. ask on HN.Don't forget that your rainbow flavored dildo is delivered by truck. Hope you can drive one. HONK HONK CRY MORE
        5y ago
    - dang 5y ago
      Please don't post unsubstantive and/or flamebait comments to HN. Edit: We've had to ask you this more than once before, and ban accounts that don't stop, so please stop. It's not what this site is for, and it destroys what it is for. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- have_faith 5y ago
  So they can use the crypto to buy what? dollars?
  - ur-whale 5y ago
    > So they can use the crypto to buy what? dollars? Exchange oil for BTC. Use obtained BTC to buy other commodities from willing partners (which - has to be said - there might not be many left). Bypass traditional currencies entirely.
    - umeshunni 5y ago
      Ironically, the countries that Russia would have been able to trade with in BTC (China, India etc) are the countries that are most resistant to crypto.
      - smoe 5y ago
        Also countries with whom they can just use CIPS, the Chinese alternative to SWIFT. Seems much more straightforward than crypto for most.
      - from 5y ago
        This is because major countries with their own currencies do not like having dollarized economies. Trade with the west could be done in BTC because there is no blanket prohibition on business with Russia just mostly their financial institutions. Promoting CIPS is probably the best option.
    - pishpash 5y ago
      They can just trade in yuan or rupees then. What does BTC provide additionally?
    - Gertioj 5y ago
      The companies buying need to make it transparent and if there is not enough criminal energy there is no way they would do this.
user432678 5y ago
Why would you buy Russian securities for bitcoins? I mean literally? You buy securities for profit. In current political situation buying anything from Russia is more like making a donation to terrorist organisation. So why anyone on Earth will be doing that?
- laurent92 5y ago
  What do you think about selling software with Russia? I’m unbalanced between taking their money for my software, or not taking that money and it stays in Russia and they’ll hack my software…
  - older 5y ago
    If your software cannot be used to kill people I think it is ok to sell (as long as you get paid in USD/EUR/etc. Just do not buy anything.
- from 5y ago
  Because great companies can be bought for pennies on the dollar? It’s irrelevant now because they’re trying to prevent foreigners from selling and the sanctions are probably going to get worse but if I was a Russian with good savings I would probably buy. It’s unlikely that there will be any actual war in Russia itself which means the aluminum plants pipelines etc should be fine (although maybe limited in who they can trade with).
- dheera 5y ago
  > In current political situation buying anything from Russia is more like making a donation to terrorist organisation. I don't agree with that statement. (a) Russian stocks have crashed hard already, and if you believe war is already priced in, you could buy in low, sell high at a later date, and donate proceeds to Ukraine rebuilding efforts, effectively creating a Russia->Ukraine money funnel (b) Putin might be a terrorist, but most Russian civilian businesses are most certainly not. Many of them don't support attacking Ukraine, as evidenced by the numerous protests in Russia, and likely a whole lot of other people that would protest but are afraid to. The way I see it, "Russia" isn't attacking Ukraine, a corrupt leader of Russia is.
5350-uiop-1130 5y ago
since when has the market responded to macro fundamentals in a rational manner
chaoz_ 5y ago
Don't forget that legal way to buy Bitcoin is through the certified exchanges that require ID verification. Meaning, these certified exchanges will comply with all the sanctions and getting money back in your bank might not be trivial and risky.
- disruptalot 5y ago
  Where is it illegal to exchange assets p2p? Or better yet, what is the enforcement history?
  - blibble 5y ago
    attempting to bust sanctions on a public ledger would be pretty stupid
    - pishpash 5y ago
      Public but pseudonymous.
      - WJW 5y ago
        With a vast graph containing every wallet and exchange you ever traded with. The onramps to crypto are becoming more and more monitored by law enforcement agencies to the point that remaining pseudonymous is beyond all but the most paranoid.
  - chaoz_ 5y ago
    I am saying that conversion back to RUB (actually something you can use to pay for gas/food/rent) is still going to be problematic. Meaning that you're supposed to pay tax and if amount of money is somewhat significant, you might get your bank account auto-blocked. LocalBitcoins is blocked, but there are still analogues (not with greatest rate, but anyway). Russia <-> Crypto relationship is complicated and recently Central Bank proposed additional restrictions, but its not approved yet. https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/russian-cbank-proposes-banning-cryptocurrencies-crypto-mining-2022-01-20/ https://www.reuters.com/business/finance/russian-cbank-propo...
allisdust 5y ago
Ironically, Russian central bank recommended complete ban of crypto like 3 weeks back while their finance ministry was pushing to make it more main stream. I guess people at the Central bank didn't get the memo about the rogue invasion. Its the same story in many countries including India, EU, IMF. Central banks don't see beyond their own noses when it comes to also taking geopolitics into account. Seems like they all study the same stale theories in universities and give the same stale recommendations.
- AniseAbyss 5y ago
  The job of the Russian central bank is to safeguard the Russian economy. It reminds me of German civil servants who ran the numbers and advised Hitler that the country was going to lose. Recommendations are worthless when politicians ignore them and declare war anyway.
  - Aurelius3 5y ago
    >It reminds me of German civil servants who ran the numbers and advised Hitler that the country was going to lose. Recommendations are worthless when politicians ignore them and declare war anyway. Source on this? Sounds interesting.
ngold 5y ago
Unless oligarchs need massive amounts of dollars fast? Then it just becomes a run on the bank. Like middle class russia is waiting for at ms to run dry. Such a bummer for everyone.
misja111 5y ago
Bitcoin not, but CHF went up a lot this morning. But I suspect that this is more related to the exclusion of some Russian banks from Swift.
- M2Ys4U 5y ago
  I wouldn't expect that to last long; Switzerland have said they're planning to join the list of countries sanctioning the Russian regime.
  - smoe 5y ago
    Swiss government just anounced in a press conference, that they will implement the EU sanctions. Accounts of the listed persons would be frozen effective immediately.
  - nradov 5y ago
    Cash Swiss francs remain a popular way for Eastern Europeans to save and hide wealth. This demand can impact the exchange rate even with sanctions in place.
    - xxs 5y ago
      >a popular way for Eastern Europeans to save and hide wealth Save - I'd not think it's not a popular instrument, and it's hard to buy lots of it. (Technically you can trade it as forex and the let the position open?). Hide - as in "cash under the blanket": 1) moving cash in the EU is regulated (ie 10k euro), and to do that they'd have to have an account in CHF send money (in any other currency to), and then withdraw in cash. I am not sure how many banks offer CHF accounts outside Switzerland.
shafyy 5y ago
I really don't understand what I'm missing here: How the fuck are cryptos useful to Russian or Ukranian people right now? I mean, they can't buy stuff with it (you know, like food), and if you exchange it to Ruble, why not start with Ruble in the first place? I know that Ruble will be in a free fall, but cryptos are not stable either. So it's like buying Ruble, but with extra steps.
- davidwritesbugs 5y ago
  Extra steps, and extra fees, and the risk of exchanges. So I don't think you're missing anything. It's Bitcoin maximalist economic nonsense.
  - lostmsu 5y ago
    At this point alternatives also include significant risks.
- Tenoke 5y ago
  I expect it's easy to send funds via crypto to and from there and regardless of sanctions from the west. It's unlikely to be the only solution even after swift and other bans but it's an easyish extra option, especially for those already familiar with the ecosystem.
  - shafyy 5y ago
    Ok, let's say it is easier and cheaper to send funds via crypto (which I'd argue is not generally the case). I'm a Russian in Russia and somebody sent me some Bitcoin. What do I do next to use this money?
    - Tenoke 5y ago
      Localbitcoin/local crypto/localmonero and similar (e.g. asking at a crypto meetup forum) are an option if bank transfers don't work. Bitcoin ATMs if you really are in a hurry and willing to take a potentially high exchange rate hit. Otherwise there's exchanges which still operate within Russia for the time being and some business (tho too rare to be useful but In a big city, if you don't have funds others than what was sent to you, you might be able to buy more than otherwise) accept it though I wouldn't rely on that too much unless you know a specific one.
Gareth321 5y ago
I think you're directionally correct. It's too late for Russia to amass any amount of BTC to mitigate sanctions. They need to exchange something of value for the BTC, and right now, everything they own is worthless or (figuratively) radioactive. However, every time currencies, banks, and payment systems are disrupted, demand increases for alternative trade and transfer mechanisms.

andylynch 5y ago

I’m curious to know how this will effect BP’s announced divestment of its stake in Rosneft this morning.

misja111 5y ago
Me too. Does this make it impossible for BP to step out of the shareholding with Rosneft?
- miohtama 5y ago
  For BP, their Rosneft stake goes to zero in one way or another. The local oligarchs will take over the operation, like factories and employees, and kick out any foreigners that still have boots on the ground. They are not going to ask or call BP. It does not matter what paper agreements say, as most of legal frameworks will throw out from the window during the time of a war.
gnfargbl 5y ago
BP are going to resign from the board of Rosneft and stop taking dividends. As far as I can tell they aren't planning to try and sell their equity at this time, instead they will be "treating it now as a financial asset". [1] https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/press-releases/bp-to-exit-rosneft-shareholding.html https://www.bp.com/en/global/corporate/news-and-insights/pre...
- ur-whale 5y ago
  Independent of what it is worth, I don't think it will remain their share for very long.

eps 5y ago

One of the parlament members floated the idea of seizing (*) people's savings to offset the effects of the sanctions. Though "floated" doesn't quite capture it - he apparently "explained" that this will be necessary and "reminded" that the government will have no choice but to "arrest" the savings of Russians to deal with the crisis. To a question of whether these funds will be repaid, he said that it'll take several generations to to do so, at which point it will all be eaten by an inflation. They are all puppets, so it doesn't matter who said it exactly and in which context. It's the message that matters. And the message is chilling. https://news.ru/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmozhnuyu-konfiskaciyu-sberezhenij-rossiyan/ https://news.ru/economics/v-gosdume-prokommentirovali-vozmoz... * fixed the typo, kudos to rob74

marvin 5y ago
Would a smart and well-connected Russian keep their savings as a Ruble deposit in a russian bank? It’s too late now, but I’d like to imagine that some individuals kept their stock market savings with international broners.
- miohtama 5y ago
  That's why a lot of sanctions go against oligarchs in a person. It is more discriminate and does not matter what kind of property they have. For example, oligarchs Italian villas https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-targets-three-oligarchs-and-five-russian-banks-in-first-tranche-of-new-sanctions/ https://www.icij.org/investigations/pandora-papers/uk-target... The rationale is that you cannot do both support a dictator and plunder your own people, and then enjoy the benefits of European lifestyle without European rule of law based justice.
  - posix_me_less 5y ago
    > rule of law based justice What other kinds of justice are there? In Russia they do not have law based justice?
    - 5y ago

daneel_w 5y ago

I know nothing about money except how to save and how to spend them. Can someone explain the gist of what "securities" are and what the goal of blocking specifically sales of them is?

misja111 5y ago
Securities are company shares. The goal of blocking foreigners from selling them is more or less to confiscate the money that they paid to own those shares.
- wcoenen 5y ago
  It's not just company shares. Bonds and derivatives are also securities.
  - nickles 5y ago
    Derivatives are not securities and are regulated differently. For example, futures are regulated by CFTC in the US.
    - wcoenen 5y ago
      I was going off the investopedia definition, which claims warrants and convertible bonds are securities [1]. As far as I understand, those are a type of derivative. But I hadn't understood that some other types of derivatives are not considered securities. It all makes a bit less sense to me now... [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/security.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/s/security.asp
- Lendal 5y ago
  Yeah this is how I understand it. The goal for Putin is to steal as much as possible while he still can from the only people in the world who believed in him, the people who invested in Russian securities over the past two decades.
einarfd 5y ago

fuoqi 5y ago

I will repeat my previous comment. Looks like a reasonable response to "freezing" (read, seizing) assets of the Central Bank of Russia and the credit rating downgrades. Not only it plays role of deterrence to some extent (destabilize our markets and your investors will suffer), but also significantly limits amount of liquidity which will be able to leave the Russian market, thus helping to support their currency. Note that even with the old exchange rate Russia was able to accumulate sizable reserves. Now it not only spends its liquefiable foreign assets, but also introduced requirement for exporters to convert into rubles 80% of their foreign revenue.

boringg 5y ago

As a westerner I have some serious unease about this economic warfare that has really just kicked off. This is only going to create a significantly worse and more destabilized situation. I don't think this is going to cow Putin into behaving, more like send him into a rage. Overthrowing a regime through macroeconomic warfare doesn't sit well with me.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
lordleft 5y ago
I sympathize but this is still better than direct war. The alternative is what -- allow Putin to run roughshod over Ukraine and expand his capacity to imperil our security?
- boringg 5y ago
  Lots of options available to us. We just hit the nuclear economic warfare button - they are going to hit back hard and in many ways. Expect, at the very least, a lot of hacking security disruptions. Russia won't hold back anymore if we squeeze them like this. A trapped animal is the most dangerous one.
  - GeoAtreides 5y ago
    >Lots of options available to us Can you enumerate some of them?
    - boringg 5y ago
      Literally everything is possible - do you seriously want me to enumerate all the different possibilities to attack and/or pressure Russian interests by the US?
      - engineeringwoke 5y ago
        Russia is the new sick man of Europe, ironically enough given the old Russian empire used the term originally to describe the aging Ottoman empire. They seem to be the only ones that can't see it. They don't have anything that anyone particularly wants anymore. Germany can switch to LNG. USA is net energy positive these days (although the shale might only last another 10-15 years). And finally nukes just aren't worth that much with MAD.

belter 5y ago

"Russia’s FX reserves slip from its grasp" https://www.ft.com/content/526ea75b-5b45-48d8-936d-dcc3cec102d8 https://www.ft.com/content/526ea75b-5b45-48d8-936d-dcc3cec10...