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"How much does a website cost?" – a survey of web designers

241 points by sgdesign 15y ago

atomicdog 15y ago
>How much do you charge for a mobile app? Why are web designers (as opposed to software developers) being asked about mobile applications?
gallerytungsten 15y ago
Whenever someone asks me this question, I ask them, "how much does a car cost?" Well, it depends on the car, they answer. Precisely. So do you want a used Honda, a new Corvette, a BMW, or a Rolls Royce?
- namityadav 15y ago
  But do you think there are many designers who think that they are anything less than a Rolls Royce? (Just like most programmers think that they are much better than average)
  - gallerytungsten 15y ago
    Here you are getting into the difference between the quality of the designer and the issue of setting a budget range. After all, to put it in those terms, you can rent a Rolls Royce for a day - or you can buy one.
- pbhjpbhj 15y ago
  Perhaps a better analogy is a vehicle? Do you want a skateboard, pushbike, car, ute, truck, van, lorry, bus, juggernaut ... If you're looking at car brands then you can get the same vehicle priced differently according to the badge on it. Then it looks like you're saying the cost of a website varies according to the pedigree of the designer more than the technical specification. This is true to some extent but not perhaps the answer one is trying to give.
csomar 15y ago
I wonder how templates stock sites like Themeforest affects the designers business. Now to start your web app, you don't really need a designer, but just $20 or less and you get something very good for the little money you put.
- sgdesign 15y ago
  As a designer myself, I think templates are great. The reality is that most business don't need a completely custom template, especially if they're still in that MVP stage. So when you're starting out and don't have a big budget, by all means use a template. I would much rather work with your company when it's more mature and money is less of a concern. To put in another way, template are in competition with cheap cookie-cutter design (e.g. crowdsourcing sites), not higher quality design.
- dorian-graph 15y ago
  Like with some of the others here I 'test' clients to see if they're someone/a company I would like to work with. For others who refuse to believe that websites are hard can cost more than $200 I refer to templates. So, templates are good for some people/companies. It's the same with any product/service, really. There will be those who just want the cheapest x and are indifferent to quality, investing in their purchases, etc, and are happy with knock-offs and things that will break down in a few months.
jrnkntl 15y ago
(native) Mobile apps in the same price range as websites? That's really not my experience; it's most of the time double or triple what a website with similar functionality would cost.
- sgdesign 15y ago
  I was surprised by the results myself, I expected the average price for a mobile app to be much higher than for a website. But more and more designers are focusing on mobile design. Just a year or two ago it was still a fairly rare specialization, but if you browse Dribbble you'll see that most good designers have at least one or two mobile projects in their portfolio. So that might be one reason why prices are being driven down.
- eli 15y ago
  I've been quoted $20k+ for a mobile app of any complexity
  - sgdesign 15y ago
    Just for the design? Was that an agency or freelancer? Seems pretty expensive for a freelancer, at least according to the survey results (and my own experience).
    - deleted 15y ago
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- 1880 15y ago
  It's seems to be the price for the design only, no coding.
lysol 15y ago
This should really just be a graph with two lines: A very small one that says 'As much as I quoted', and a far larger line that says 'Much more than I quoted'.
deleted 15y ago
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JonWood 15y ago
When it comes to the web app pricing I'm not sure about this: "For example, the mere fact of supporting user accounts will mean having to design sign up, sign in, and “I forgot my password” screens as well as all the different error states associated with them." I'd much rather have UI guidelines, which cover how forms are built, what an error state looks like, and how text is formatted. A set of building blocks, rather then a unique design for each activity being undertaken. In my experience designers who design each page individually usually provide designs which can't be adapted easily, and require each page to have much more work applied then would otherwise be necessary. By all means provide a full design for key processes, for example the checkout process on an e-commerce site, but for a lost password form I should I be able to put that together without having to call in a designer.
- sgdesign 15y ago
  You're right, of course. Maybe this particular example was poorly chosen, but I just wanted to illustrate the fact that web apps are often more complex than you think. (plus it's been my experience that some clients do want mockups for each screen, even though I always tell them that the "building blocks" approach you describe is much more efficient)
jaysonelliot 15y ago
You might as well ask, "How long is a piece of string?"
anons2011 15y ago
Would be interesting to get some feedback from other freelance front-end devs as well, in terms of pricing. As I known I'm probably completely undercharging.
wofser 15y ago
I always answers like this: "How much does a website cost?" "It depends". "Depends on what?" "A lot of things". I am a web developer, not a web designer.
- jurre 15y ago
  I know that you're right and I know that it is the wrong question to ask, but answering it like that is what makes a lot of non-dev/designers dislike us. Maybe try helping them ask the right question by saying something like: "Well it depends on what you want, what kind of website are we talking about?". It might take a couple of minutes more to answer their question but it has a much higher chance of actually getting a new potential client.
  - asto 15y ago
    But why do web developers and designers always get these kind of questions? One would hardly go into a shop selling watches and ask how much _a_ watch costs. Why then ask a vague question that just cannot be answered? I think giving an equally vague reply is fair.
    - jurre 15y ago
      I think that's because people just don't know a whole lot about these kind of things, instead of being vague I try to teach them a little about it. Generally people mean well.
    - HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
      But that is completely different. In a watch store, I can point to a specific watch and ask "how much does that one cost?" It's hard to do the same with a website unless the designer/programmer has a portfolio to browse.
      - asto 15y ago
        Why not point at a website and ask how much would that cost? In the sense "I'd like a website that works and looks like HN. How much would you charge to make it for me?" Maybe watches aren't perfectly analogous. How about walking into a real estate office and asking how much a house costs?
paulmckeever 15y ago
Thanks for sharing this and I hope Folyo is getting off to a good start. I know a lot of designers who struggle to figure out the market rate for their work and will find this really helpful. Design can add huge value to a business and good work costs money. But I find the way you've approach the survey to be flawed. The cost of design work is generally a factor of how complex the problem is to solve. Most designers I know charge effort * hourly rate = fee, much like developers and other professional services. So quantifying prices in terms of a homepage, additional layouts etc is meaningless. I don't find your distinction that only web apps (and not other parts of the web) require both visual and UX design helpful. @JonWood gets it pretty spot on: handing over a pretty PSD file is getting less common as more design agencies get involved in prototyping and front-end development. Creating a visual language and building blocks is far more useful.
- sgdesign 15y ago
  Agreed. I charge by the hour myself (although looking back at the totals for various recent projects, I find that they end up pretty close to the average survey results). I'll be the first to admit that it's extremely hard to estimate the costs of designing (or even developing) a site. That being said, I think even vague figures such as these can be useful, if only to establish a basic minimum budget for projects.
citricsquid 15y ago
"How much do you charge?" = bad "What is the average of your x previous invoices for x?" = good Sure I might charge by default $1k for a logo but the chances of $1k being billed every time are slim, every client is different. The average invoice price is the most valuable metric. Every designer will say they charge $5k when they charge $1k because it makes them feel good.
- sokoloff 15y ago
  Median is probably an even better measure here than average.
- rgraham 15y ago
  There are several comments here along these lines. I don't disagree that the latter is a better framing of the question, but... No one wants to hear that they're ignorant. No one wants to listen to a condescending speech about how they don't understand your area of expertise. Take a moment, be patient, educate them a little, try a couple concrete examples, and keep calm. If you can't arrive at an understanding after a few tries you can always walk away. I will assure you, however, that you will secure a lot more clients and referrals if you treat everyone with respect and try to help them find the right solution for themselves.
bradleyland 15y ago
I know it's trite, but when people ask me, "How much would you charge me to build a website?" I always reply with something pithy like, "Between $100 and $100,000." What's more interesting are the responses. It's almost like a litmus test for who I'd actually want to work with. A person that I might actually want to work with will laugh and acknowledge that the question was ridiculously vague. A person that I don't want to work with will show some level of frustration and will usually dismiss the remark, pressing for a greater level of detail. I'll talk to the individual with a sense of humor and even a basic level of introspection, but the person who is frustrated with me isn't getting very far.
- csomar 15y ago
  I don't agree. For the client, this might seem not serious. How do you know the clients that you want to work for? Get to know him. As simple as that. What's his business? can he afford your rates? Is he ready to pay that rate or does he see the value of your work? And then ask for details. Give a reasonable estimate. Alert them that your hourly rate is $xxx and beyond the details specified in the estimate you'll charge more.
  - rhizome 15y ago
    For the client, this might seem not serious. Sure, but it's also important to point out that "How much is a website?" is not a serious question. The GP's answer might seem silly, but it brings into relief that you're dealing with a "how much is a car?" or "how long is a piece of string?" situation, and is merely a door-opener on par with the more-businesslike "well, it depends..." and comes down to personal style.
    - felipemnoa 15y ago
      >>"How much is a website?" is not a serious question I think is a very valid question. And a valid response is "my rate is X and will give you an estimate once I understand better what you want to build".
      - 15y ago
bphogan 15y ago
So, if it's not coding, not even HTML coding, then this isn't about websites. It's how much do you charge for a PSD file. In my experience that's a pretty useless metric. Converting a PSD to HTML can be trivial if you just use an export tool, or it can be incredibly time-intensive if you do it by hand and turn it into something dynamic. I haven't had a straight-up "Design me a website" contract in years - it's always been applications, or a Wordpress theme. Is there actually still a market for simple static web sites anymore?
- kellishaver 15y ago
  I'm working on a simple static site right now, but it's the first one I've done in a long time. I'm also doing some work for another client that's just delivering PSD files... which, again, is not something I have done in probably a couple of years. Unless you're working as part of a larger team and you each have specific tasks, most people want at least design+front-end development.
sambeau 15y ago
When freelancing I tend to work a simple system. £250: An update to content - an evening or two's work. £500: A tiny static site with some original design. <5 pages £1000: A full static site for a SME. Full Design. ~5 pages. £2500: As above with some dynamic elements. ~10 pages. £5000: Medium dynamic site. ~20 pages. 2-4 weeks work. I then slide upwards for jobs I don't want and down for people I like. I've never gone above £5000 for a 'homer'. I also have a mate-rates scale that appears below this: Free: Family. Charities I like. Updates + tiny static. Bottle of Wine: As above but close family friends. Bottle of Whiskey: As above but good friends. If I get a request for a bigger job from friends or family I tend to pass them on to a developer chum these days — experience has shown it's for the best. Having a fixed, doubling scale like this works well. Each next price needs to be big enough to make a difference to me as I am essentially very lazy and I like my free time. Also, I am a terrible soft-touch and would probably charge everyone mates-rates if I didn't force myself to do this.
- anons2011 15y ago
  Sounds very reasonable, I am definitely going to up my rates, but if you've worked with someone before with cheaper rates, how do I try and up my rates? As for a dynamic site, I mainly use Wordpress as my CMS of choice, usually great for clients as they find it pretty straight forward to go in and add/update content, add pages etc. Another thing I have found now that I am working full-time is the absolute top-most importance for proper functional specs, as well as proper bug tracking software, emailing constant changes gets to be a real pain, and pretty hard for you to track which ones have actually been done.
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  - airlocksoftware 15y ago
    You tell the clients that you have been working with that due to an increase in demand for your time, you have had to raise your rates. Simple economics. If they decide they don't want to work with you anymore, well, that's ok. You don't have any sort of obligation to continue to offer your services at the same rate.
toblender 15y ago
Wow nice article, I was wondering if I was charging too much for my recent bid. Good to see other people are charging in that range.
- fleitz 15y ago
  Don't worry what other people are charging, worry what your clients are paying and that they are happy.
  - shabble 15y ago
    If you quote a number and people are happy to pay it straight up, there's a reasonable chance you're pricing too low. You might not want to scrape out the absolute maximum each client will pay for each job (at the least, it's a very difficult thing to actually determine, and makes for a bad client experience if you're negotiating too hard), but it's always good to have a sanity check that they're not happy merely because you're charging way below market rates for your talent.
    - eru 15y ago
      Wasn't there a rule of thumb: Unless a sizeable portion of your potential clients think you are too expensive, up your rates.
RegEx 15y ago
I don't know why so many people here feel compelled to act so rude towards potential clients. Why do people get so defensive when it comes to their pricing that they have to offer the prospect analogies instead of direct answers? We all know the pricing is relative to the project. If you're tired of getting emails from people asking how much a site is, don't be afraid to state your minimum price on your site. Setting up pricing filters is good - being rude to those that may be ignorant to our process is not. You might say "Well they should do research!", but their google queries will be met by articles spouting equally obscure analogies on what a site could cost.
- fleitz 15y ago
  Because they are great programmers/designers but shitty business people.
ralphsaunders 15y ago
Asking "How much does a website cost?" is a bit like asking "How much does a car cost?", and of course the answer is "it varies, how much are you looking to spend? What do you want of the car/website?". Surveying various designers under the pretense of addressing this question is price fixing. The fact that the designers were asked their prices on the criteria that "All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding (no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)." is rather telling with regards to experience. Design doesn't stop at the mockup stage — anyone who has designed & built the front-end of a website knows that the design continues to evolve outside of Photoshop. The nature of the web dictates a website must be flexible so it can accommodate different browsers and resolutions. It's very difficult (read: expensive) to design for a dynamic medium in a static work space, and it's disingenuous to call a static, non-interactive image a website. This post would be better titled "How much can one charge for a website mockup?"
reason 15y ago
What do you guys get out of your smart-ass answers to potential clients? You do know that they come to you because they know that you are the professionals. Many of them are completely clueless as to how pricing works for dev/design-work. Asking "how much do you charge?" is a perfectly reasonable question for someone understandably uninformed to ask. You may be skilled at your trade, but from the sounds of it, many of you are absolutely horrible at dealing with customers who need a bit of guidance and direction with respects to the work they want to get done. Imagine a curious older relative asking a physicist what light is and receiving "Well, it's sort of like one thing, but it's really not" as a response.
- jtheory 15y ago
  It's useful to try to put yourself in the place of the customer. They're trying to negotiate the purchase of something they don't understand, that apparently can be accomplished by 14-year-olds, and that somehow costs $8K -- what!? That's close to what I paid for my car, a complex piece of machinery with computers inside it and thousands of engineered parts that actually move! Do you see how this feels? They're pretty reasonably scared of being ripped off. After all, if you went off for 2 weeks and on the last day just copied some other site's design and changed the names... how would they know?
- jemka 15y ago
  >You may be skilled at your trade, but from the sounds of it, many of you are absolutely horrible at dealing with customers I don't think a lot of freelancers realize the importance of sales/marketing/customer service. They are more than just easy classes in college and they benefit more than the greasy used car salesman down the street. Quite often it's the difference between you and the competitor to whom you lost the job.
  - oscarleung 15y ago
    Oh of course, in the end it's all about 'who you want to work with' and who's 'easy to talk to.' That's why so many extremely skilled engineers go unheard of.
deleted 15y ago
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kaffeinecoma 15y ago
What's interesting is that these prices are for design only; they do not include HTML/CSS, much less code to make a webapp functional.
drtse4 15y ago
Compared to the amounts i see on TinyProj (that usually are related to a full implementation, not only design) these are way higher...
hopeless 15y ago
To all those designers comparing their pricing to car sales, consider this: I can wander around a car sales lot and browse the cars and their prices. I don't have to invent a "car spec" or give you a budget, I can see for myself what I can afford. Unfortunately, web designers don't take this approach or else I could browse through example (or previous) sites with their price tags proudly attached. I could see how much $1000, or $3000 or $10,000 would buy me. Unless you want to go down this road, never respond to me "well, how much is a car?"
- tertius 15y ago
  Most designers have portfolios.
  - jamesbritt 15y ago
    Most designers have portfolios. Do these portfolios also show prices? I've never seen such a thing (well, aside from off-the-rack TemplatesAreUs.com sort of sites). If pricing is such a case-by-case matter then perhaps there should be something on the site that explains this. I've dealt with a number of potential clients for Web development who came in assuming that site building was much like (in their mind) getting a house built. Two bedrooms, 2.5 baths? This much. Three bedrooms? That much. I've had to explain to people that even getting a house built is not like that, that while there are some common aspects there are also quite a few things that are going to be unique. Clients are usually well-meaning and earnest when they go shopping for a developer or a designer, but typically have no idea how things work. A little time explaining things goes a long way.
cancelbubble 15y ago
"All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding (no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)." Then this article doesn't really tell you how much a website costs.
geuis 15y ago
I really take issue with this: "All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding (no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)". I'm sorry, but a design is only a tiny, tiny fraction of a website. Usually it's the most minor and inconsequential part. I've lost count of how many clients thought their apparently simple designs can built for a toothpick and olive. Coding the HTML, CSS, javascript, and backend (app + database) can be freaking complex and is easily the most expensive part of a site. This article is mis-titled, since design is the least important part of a site.
- ChrisLTD 15y ago
  It's a little much to say design is the "least" important part of a site. Good design can instill potential users/customers with confidence, ease the sign-up or purchasing process, and give the site a personality.
  - thenomad 15y ago
    From practical experience using sites as a selling tool, a 20% faster load time won't change my sales figures. Something that's significantly higher production value in look, implying a more successful company, will.
    - thenomad 15y ago
      Replying to myself here... Of course, it depends on the original load time. Changing the load time from 2.5 sec to 2sec - not that useful for a sales page. Changing the load time from 25sec to 20sec - well, there's a lot more work to be done, but that WILL have an impact on sales.
  - geuis 15y ago
    I've yet to see where a design that's shiny and pretty is more important than a site that is plain yet fast and functional. I'll add an addendum that usability is more important than pretty. The combination of both is, unfortunately, rare.
Osiris 15y ago
This is a bit off-topic, but I'm actually looking to build a new website to replace my current poorly-designed one. It's basically just three static pages. Current website and contact info are in my profile. Contact me if you're interested.
gte910h 15y ago
How much do you charge for a website? is appropriately answered by "What do you want it to do?" then a conversation talking about their project.
d_rwin 15y ago
the worst anyone can do is approaching this as easy.
armandososa 15y ago
Fuck. This is my reaction every time I realize how underpriced I was for all my consulting career. I charged $600 top for building websites, including logo and backend most of the time. I think I was good, just very clueless.
- danssig 15y ago
  Well, the important thing is to learn and adjust. Remember; if you are good but underpricing you are not just hurting yourself. Your potentially hurting every local person in the same space by decreasing the value of those services.
darksaga 15y ago
Building the site is just the start of the process in my eyes. I always give one estimate for the design/development/seo of a site. The importance of keeping the content, SEO and design fresh cannot be undersold to the client. Letting your site anguish for a few years will cost you visitors and business. And today, it happens even faster. A site that sits for more than 6 months is in danger of losing page rank. For me, the cost isn't in the initial development, it's in the cost of maintaining the site (design/content) and continuing to rank well in the search engines for the life of the site (seo/sem). This also presents the best opportunity to create a long term relationship and an ongoing revenue stream for the developer.
esutton 15y ago
i for one am tired of the hourly model. set a price whatever it may be. If you go low, you'll charge more the next time. if you go high, people will go to someone else.
mikey_p 15y ago
I'm really surprised by the responses here. No one is saying that you should smart off to a client, but the quality of an estimate is going to be in response to the quality of the question. "How much is a website?" is about as helpful as phoning a builder and asking "How much does it cost to build a house?" (I'm also waiting for commenters to rip me to shreds for the analogy, since HN seems to hate analogies, but it's the best way I can describe it)
md1515 15y ago
Some 14 year olds can design pretty well. Plus - logo matters, but not that much. Look at Hacker News...it looks like someone taking beginner programming made it. Nonetheless, the content is fabulous - that's the point
8ig8 15y ago
I used to fault the client or prospect for asking such _foolish_ questions, but in many cases this may be the first time they have ever engaged creative services. It seems so obvious to us, but not everyone has worked with an architect or an interior designer or a software developer or an advertising agency. My tactic is to frame the 'how much does it cost' question into something they can relate to. I compare the website to a house. I explain that the cost is dependent on factors like the number of bedrooms and bathrooms. I explain that knowing a rough budget is helpful because the designers would know if they should shop at Ikea or (insert local high end furniture store). I ask them if they want hardwoods or carpeting. Usually the house example helps the client understand that he/she is asking an impossible question and they then are more comfortable going into specifics about their idea so I can get then a fair estimate.

241 points by sgdesign 15y ago

>How much do you charge for a mobile app? Why are web designers (as opposed to software developers) being asked about mobile applications?

gallerytungsten 15y ago

Whenever someone asks me this question, I ask them, "how much does a car cost?" Well, it depends on the car, they answer. Precisely. So do you want a used Honda, a new Corvette, a BMW, or a Rolls Royce?

namityadav 15y ago
But do you think there are many designers who think that they are anything less than a Rolls Royce? (Just like most programmers think that they are much better than average)
- gallerytungsten 15y ago
  Here you are getting into the difference between the quality of the designer and the issue of setting a budget range. After all, to put it in those terms, you can rent a Rolls Royce for a day - or you can buy one.
pbhjpbhj 15y ago
Perhaps a better analogy is a vehicle? Do you want a skateboard, pushbike, car, ute, truck, van, lorry, bus, juggernaut ... If you're looking at car brands then you can get the same vehicle priced differently according to the badge on it. Then it looks like you're saying the cost of a website varies according to the pedigree of the designer more than the technical specification. This is true to some extent but not perhaps the answer one is trying to give.

csomar 15y ago

I wonder how templates stock sites like Themeforest affects the designers business. Now to start your web app, you don't really need a designer, but just $20 or less and you get something very good for the little money you put.

sgdesign 15y ago
As a designer myself, I think templates are great. The reality is that most business don't need a completely custom template, especially if they're still in that MVP stage. So when you're starting out and don't have a big budget, by all means use a template. I would much rather work with your company when it's more mature and money is less of a concern. To put in another way, template are in competition with cheap cookie-cutter design (e.g. crowdsourcing sites), not higher quality design.
dorian-graph 15y ago
Like with some of the others here I 'test' clients to see if they're someone/a company I would like to work with. For others who refuse to believe that websites are hard can cost more than $200 I refer to templates. So, templates are good for some people/companies. It's the same with any product/service, really. There will be those who just want the cheapest x and are indifferent to quality, investing in their purchases, etc, and are happy with knock-offs and things that will break down in a few months.

jrnkntl 15y ago

(native) Mobile apps in the same price range as websites? That's really not my experience; it's most of the time double or triple what a website with similar functionality would cost.

sgdesign 15y ago
I was surprised by the results myself, I expected the average price for a mobile app to be much higher than for a website. But more and more designers are focusing on mobile design. Just a year or two ago it was still a fairly rare specialization, but if you browse Dribbble you'll see that most good designers have at least one or two mobile projects in their portfolio. So that might be one reason why prices are being driven down.
eli 15y ago
I've been quoted $20k+ for a mobile app of any complexity
- sgdesign 15y ago
  Just for the design? Was that an agency or freelancer? Seems pretty expensive for a freelancer, at least according to the survey results (and my own experience).
  - deleted 15y ago
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1880 15y ago
It's seems to be the price for the design only, no coding.

lysol 15y ago

This should really just be a graph with two lines: A very small one that says 'As much as I quoted', and a far larger line that says 'Much more than I quoted'.

deleted 15y ago

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JonWood 15y ago

When it comes to the web app pricing I'm not sure about this: "For example, the mere fact of supporting user accounts will mean having to design sign up, sign in, and “I forgot my password” screens as well as all the different error states associated with them." I'd much rather have UI guidelines, which cover how forms are built, what an error state looks like, and how text is formatted. A set of building blocks, rather then a unique design for each activity being undertaken. In my experience designers who design each page individually usually provide designs which can't be adapted easily, and require each page to have much more work applied then would otherwise be necessary. By all means provide a full design for key processes, for example the checkout process on an e-commerce site, but for a lost password form I should I be able to put that together without having to call in a designer.

sgdesign 15y ago
You're right, of course. Maybe this particular example was poorly chosen, but I just wanted to illustrate the fact that web apps are often more complex than you think. (plus it's been my experience that some clients do want mockups for each screen, even though I always tell them that the "building blocks" approach you describe is much more efficient)

jaysonelliot 15y ago

You might as well ask, "How long is a piece of string?"

anons2011 15y ago

Would be interesting to get some feedback from other freelance front-end devs as well, in terms of pricing. As I known I'm probably completely undercharging.

wofser 15y ago

I always answers like this: "How much does a website cost?" "It depends". "Depends on what?" "A lot of things". I am a web developer, not a web designer.

jurre 15y ago
I know that you're right and I know that it is the wrong question to ask, but answering it like that is what makes a lot of non-dev/designers dislike us. Maybe try helping them ask the right question by saying something like: "Well it depends on what you want, what kind of website are we talking about?". It might take a couple of minutes more to answer their question but it has a much higher chance of actually getting a new potential client.
- asto 15y ago
  But why do web developers and designers always get these kind of questions? One would hardly go into a shop selling watches and ask how much _a_ watch costs. Why then ask a vague question that just cannot be answered? I think giving an equally vague reply is fair.
  - jurre 15y ago
    I think that's because people just don't know a whole lot about these kind of things, instead of being vague I try to teach them a little about it. Generally people mean well.
  - HeyLaughingBoy 15y ago
    But that is completely different. In a watch store, I can point to a specific watch and ask "how much does that one cost?" It's hard to do the same with a website unless the designer/programmer has a portfolio to browse.
    - asto 15y ago
      Why not point at a website and ask how much would that cost? In the sense "I'd like a website that works and looks like HN. How much would you charge to make it for me?" Maybe watches aren't perfectly analogous. How about walking into a real estate office and asking how much a house costs?

paulmckeever 15y ago

Thanks for sharing this and I hope Folyo is getting off to a good start. I know a lot of designers who struggle to figure out the market rate for their work and will find this really helpful. Design can add huge value to a business and good work costs money. But I find the way you've approach the survey to be flawed. The cost of design work is generally a factor of how complex the problem is to solve. Most designers I know charge effort * hourly rate = fee, much like developers and other professional services. So quantifying prices in terms of a homepage, additional layouts etc is meaningless. I don't find your distinction that only web apps (and not other parts of the web) require both visual and UX design helpful. @JonWood gets it pretty spot on: handing over a pretty PSD file is getting less common as more design agencies get involved in prototyping and front-end development. Creating a visual language and building blocks is far more useful.

sgdesign 15y ago
Agreed. I charge by the hour myself (although looking back at the totals for various recent projects, I find that they end up pretty close to the average survey results). I'll be the first to admit that it's extremely hard to estimate the costs of designing (or even developing) a site. That being said, I think even vague figures such as these can be useful, if only to establish a basic minimum budget for projects.

citricsquid 15y ago

"How much do you charge?" = bad "What is the average of your x previous invoices for x?" = good Sure I might charge by default $1k for a logo but the chances of $1k being billed every time are slim, every client is different. The average invoice price is the most valuable metric. Every designer will say they charge $5k when they charge $1k because it makes them feel good.

sokoloff 15y ago
Median is probably an even better measure here than average.
rgraham 15y ago
There are several comments here along these lines. I don't disagree that the latter is a better framing of the question, but... No one wants to hear that they're ignorant. No one wants to listen to a condescending speech about how they don't understand your area of expertise. Take a moment, be patient, educate them a little, try a couple concrete examples, and keep calm. If you can't arrive at an understanding after a few tries you can always walk away. I will assure you, however, that you will secure a lot more clients and referrals if you treat everyone with respect and try to help them find the right solution for themselves.

bradleyland 15y ago

I know it's trite, but when people ask me, "How much would you charge me to build a website?" I always reply with something pithy like, "Between $100 and $100,000." What's more interesting are the responses. It's almost like a litmus test for who I'd actually want to work with. A person that I might actually want to work with will laugh and acknowledge that the question was ridiculously vague. A person that I don't want to work with will show some level of frustration and will usually dismiss the remark, pressing for a greater level of detail. I'll talk to the individual with a sense of humor and even a basic level of introspection, but the person who is frustrated with me isn't getting very far.

csomar 15y ago
I don't agree. For the client, this might seem not serious. How do you know the clients that you want to work for? Get to know him. As simple as that. What's his business? can he afford your rates? Is he ready to pay that rate or does he see the value of your work? And then ask for details. Give a reasonable estimate. Alert them that your hourly rate is $xxx and beyond the details specified in the estimate you'll charge more.
- rhizome 15y ago
  For the client, this might seem not serious. Sure, but it's also important to point out that "How much is a website?" is not a serious question. The GP's answer might seem silly, but it brings into relief that you're dealing with a "how much is a car?" or "how long is a piece of string?" situation, and is merely a door-opener on par with the more-businesslike "well, it depends..." and comes down to personal style.
  - felipemnoa 15y ago
    >>"How much is a website?" is not a serious question I think is a very valid question. And a valid response is "my rate is X and will give you an estimate once I understand better what you want to build".
    - 15y ago

bphogan 15y ago

So, if it's not coding, not even HTML coding, then this isn't about websites. It's how much do you charge for a PSD file. In my experience that's a pretty useless metric. Converting a PSD to HTML can be trivial if you just use an export tool, or it can be incredibly time-intensive if you do it by hand and turn it into something dynamic. I haven't had a straight-up "Design me a website" contract in years - it's always been applications, or a Wordpress theme. Is there actually still a market for simple static web sites anymore?

kellishaver 15y ago
I'm working on a simple static site right now, but it's the first one I've done in a long time. I'm also doing some work for another client that's just delivering PSD files... which, again, is not something I have done in probably a couple of years. Unless you're working as part of a larger team and you each have specific tasks, most people want at least design+front-end development.

sambeau 15y ago

When freelancing I tend to work a simple system. £250: An update to content - an evening or two's work. £500: A tiny static site with some original design. <5 pages £1000: A full static site for a SME. Full Design. ~5 pages. £2500: As above with some dynamic elements. ~10 pages. £5000: Medium dynamic site. ~20 pages. 2-4 weeks work. I then slide upwards for jobs I don't want and down for people I like. I've never gone above £5000 for a 'homer'. I also have a mate-rates scale that appears below this: Free: Family. Charities I like. Updates + tiny static. Bottle of Wine: As above but close family friends. Bottle of Whiskey: As above but good friends. If I get a request for a bigger job from friends or family I tend to pass them on to a developer chum these days — experience has shown it's for the best. Having a fixed, doubling scale like this works well. Each next price needs to be big enough to make a difference to me as I am essentially very lazy and I like my free time. Also, I am a terrible soft-touch and would probably charge everyone mates-rates if I didn't force myself to do this.

anons2011 15y ago
Sounds very reasonable, I am definitely going to up my rates, but if you've worked with someone before with cheaper rates, how do I try and up my rates? As for a dynamic site, I mainly use Wordpress as my CMS of choice, usually great for clients as they find it pretty straight forward to go in and add/update content, add pages etc. Another thing I have found now that I am working full-time is the absolute top-most importance for proper functional specs, as well as proper bug tracking software, emailing constant changes gets to be a real pain, and pretty hard for you to track which ones have actually been done.
- deleted 15y ago
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- airlocksoftware 15y ago
  You tell the clients that you have been working with that due to an increase in demand for your time, you have had to raise your rates. Simple economics. If they decide they don't want to work with you anymore, well, that's ok. You don't have any sort of obligation to continue to offer your services at the same rate.

toblender 15y ago

Wow nice article, I was wondering if I was charging too much for my recent bid. Good to see other people are charging in that range.

fleitz 15y ago
Don't worry what other people are charging, worry what your clients are paying and that they are happy.
- shabble 15y ago
  If you quote a number and people are happy to pay it straight up, there's a reasonable chance you're pricing too low. You might not want to scrape out the absolute maximum each client will pay for each job (at the least, it's a very difficult thing to actually determine, and makes for a bad client experience if you're negotiating too hard), but it's always good to have a sanity check that they're not happy merely because you're charging way below market rates for your talent.
  - eru 15y ago
    Wasn't there a rule of thumb: Unless a sizeable portion of your potential clients think you are too expensive, up your rates.

RegEx 15y ago

I don't know why so many people here feel compelled to act so rude towards potential clients. Why do people get so defensive when it comes to their pricing that they have to offer the prospect analogies instead of direct answers? We all know the pricing is relative to the project. If you're tired of getting emails from people asking how much a site is, don't be afraid to state your minimum price on your site. Setting up pricing filters is good - being rude to those that may be ignorant to our process is not. You might say "Well they should do research!", but their google queries will be met by articles spouting equally obscure analogies on what a site could cost.

fleitz 15y ago
Because they are great programmers/designers but shitty business people.

ralphsaunders 15y ago

Asking "How much does a website cost?" is a bit like asking "How much does a car cost?", and of course the answer is "it varies, how much are you looking to spend? What do you want of the car/website?". Surveying various designers under the pretense of addressing this question is price fixing. The fact that the designers were asked their prices on the criteria that "All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding (no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)." is rather telling with regards to experience. Design doesn't stop at the mockup stage — anyone who has designed & built the front-end of a website knows that the design continues to evolve outside of Photoshop. The nature of the web dictates a website must be flexible so it can accommodate different browsers and resolutions. It's very difficult (read: expensive) to design for a dynamic medium in a static work space, and it's disingenuous to call a static, non-interactive image a website. This post would be better titled "How much can one charge for a website mockup?"

reason 15y ago

What do you guys get out of your smart-ass answers to potential clients? You do know that they come to you because they know that you are the professionals. Many of them are completely clueless as to how pricing works for dev/design-work. Asking "how much do you charge?" is a perfectly reasonable question for someone understandably uninformed to ask. You may be skilled at your trade, but from the sounds of it, many of you are absolutely horrible at dealing with customers who need a bit of guidance and direction with respects to the work they want to get done. Imagine a curious older relative asking a physicist what light is and receiving "Well, it's sort of like one thing, but it's really not" as a response.

jtheory 15y ago
It's useful to try to put yourself in the place of the customer. They're trying to negotiate the purchase of something they don't understand, that apparently can be accomplished by 14-year-olds, and that somehow costs $8K -- what!? That's close to what I paid for my car, a complex piece of machinery with computers inside it and thousands of engineered parts that actually move! Do you see how this feels? They're pretty reasonably scared of being ripped off. After all, if you went off for 2 weeks and on the last day just copied some other site's design and changed the names... how would they know?
jemka 15y ago
>You may be skilled at your trade, but from the sounds of it, many of you are absolutely horrible at dealing with customers I don't think a lot of freelancers realize the importance of sales/marketing/customer service. They are more than just easy classes in college and they benefit more than the greasy used car salesman down the street. Quite often it's the difference between you and the competitor to whom you lost the job.
- oscarleung 15y ago
  Oh of course, in the end it's all about 'who you want to work with' and who's 'easy to talk to.' That's why so many extremely skilled engineers go unheard of.

deleted 15y ago

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kaffeinecoma 15y ago

What's interesting is that these prices are for design only; they do not include HTML/CSS, much less code to make a webapp functional.

drtse4 15y ago

Compared to the amounts i see on TinyProj (that usually are related to a full implementation, not only design) these are way higher...

hopeless 15y ago

To all those designers comparing their pricing to car sales, consider this: I can wander around a car sales lot and browse the cars and their prices. I don't have to invent a "car spec" or give you a budget, I can see for myself what I can afford. Unfortunately, web designers don't take this approach or else I could browse through example (or previous) sites with their price tags proudly attached. I could see how much $1000, or $3000 or $10,000 would buy me. Unless you want to go down this road, never respond to me "well, how much is a car?"

tertius 15y ago
Most designers have portfolios.
- jamesbritt 15y ago
  Most designers have portfolios. Do these portfolios also show prices? I've never seen such a thing (well, aside from off-the-rack TemplatesAreUs.com sort of sites). If pricing is such a case-by-case matter then perhaps there should be something on the site that explains this. I've dealt with a number of potential clients for Web development who came in assuming that site building was much like (in their mind) getting a house built. Two bedrooms, 2.5 baths? This much. Three bedrooms? That much. I've had to explain to people that even getting a house built is not like that, that while there are some common aspects there are also quite a few things that are going to be unique. Clients are usually well-meaning and earnest when they go shopping for a developer or a designer, but typically have no idea how things work. A little time explaining things goes a long way.

cancelbubble 15y ago

"All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding (no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)." Then this article doesn't really tell you how much a website costs.

geuis 15y ago

I really take issue with this: "All prices are for design only, i.e. they don’t include any sort of coding (no HTML, no CSS, no Javascript, no PHP, etc.)". I'm sorry, but a design is only a tiny, tiny fraction of a website. Usually it's the most minor and inconsequential part. I've lost count of how many clients thought their apparently simple designs can built for a toothpick and olive. Coding the HTML, CSS, javascript, and backend (app + database) can be freaking complex and is easily the most expensive part of a site. This article is mis-titled, since design is the least important part of a site.

ChrisLTD 15y ago
It's a little much to say design is the "least" important part of a site. Good design can instill potential users/customers with confidence, ease the sign-up or purchasing process, and give the site a personality.
- thenomad 15y ago
  From practical experience using sites as a selling tool, a 20% faster load time won't change my sales figures. Something that's significantly higher production value in look, implying a more successful company, will.
  - thenomad 15y ago
    Replying to myself here... Of course, it depends on the original load time. Changing the load time from 2.5 sec to 2sec - not that useful for a sales page. Changing the load time from 25sec to 20sec - well, there's a lot more work to be done, but that WILL have an impact on sales.
- geuis 15y ago
  I've yet to see where a design that's shiny and pretty is more important than a site that is plain yet fast and functional. I'll add an addendum that usability is more important than pretty. The combination of both is, unfortunately, rare.

Osiris 15y ago

This is a bit off-topic, but I'm actually looking to build a new website to replace my current poorly-designed one. It's basically just three static pages. Current website and contact info are in my profile. Contact me if you're interested.

gte910h 15y ago

How much do you charge for a website? is appropriately answered by "What do you want it to do?" then a conversation talking about their project.

d_rwin 15y ago

the worst anyone can do is approaching this as easy.

armandososa 15y ago

Fuck. This is my reaction every time I realize how underpriced I was for all my consulting career. I charged $600 top for building websites, including logo and backend most of the time. I think I was good, just very clueless.

danssig 15y ago
Well, the important thing is to learn and adjust. Remember; if you are good but underpricing you are not just hurting yourself. Your potentially hurting every local person in the same space by decreasing the value of those services.

darksaga 15y ago

Building the site is just the start of the process in my eyes. I always give one estimate for the design/development/seo of a site. The importance of keeping the content, SEO and design fresh cannot be undersold to the client. Letting your site anguish for a few years will cost you visitors and business. And today, it happens even faster. A site that sits for more than 6 months is in danger of losing page rank. For me, the cost isn't in the initial development, it's in the cost of maintaining the site (design/content) and continuing to rank well in the search engines for the life of the site (seo/sem). This also presents the best opportunity to create a long term relationship and an ongoing revenue stream for the developer.

esutton 15y ago

i for one am tired of the hourly model. set a price whatever it may be. If you go low, you'll charge more the next time. if you go high, people will go to someone else.

mikey_p 15y ago

I'm really surprised by the responses here. No one is saying that you should smart off to a client, but the quality of an estimate is going to be in response to the quality of the question. "How much is a website?" is about as helpful as phoning a builder and asking "How much does it cost to build a house?" (I'm also waiting for commenters to rip me to shreds for the analogy, since HN seems to hate analogies, but it's the best way I can describe it)

md1515 15y ago

Some 14 year olds can design pretty well. Plus - logo matters, but not that much. Look at Hacker News...it looks like someone taking beginner programming made it. Nonetheless, the content is fabulous - that's the point

8ig8 15y ago

I used to fault the client or prospect for asking such _foolish_ questions, but in many cases this may be the first time they have ever engaged creative services. It seems so obvious to us, but not everyone has worked with an architect or an interior designer or a software developer or an advertising agency. My tactic is to frame the 'how much does it cost' question into something they can relate to. I compare the website to a house. I explain that the cost is dependent on factors like the number of bedrooms and bathrooms. I explain that knowing a rough budget is helpful because the designers would know if they should shop at Ikea or (insert local high end furniture store). I ask them if they want hardwoods or carpeting. Usually the house example helps the client understand that he/she is asking an impossible question and they then are more comfortable going into specifics about their idea so I can get then a fair estimate.