12 ms·

A couple of years ago, I was attacked by a Kiwi bot near a UC campus. This is my story. The bot and I were moving towards each other on a sidewalk, and when I

A couple of years ago, I was attacked by a Kiwi bot near a UC campus. This is my story. The bot and I were moving towards each other on a sidewalk, and when I came close it stopped, as they do when sensing an object in front of them. But there was an awkward moment as I tried to go around it and it repeatedly jerked forward an inch as its motor kicked on and off. Maybe I was walking around the very edge of its radius. In any case, my behavior must have triggered some pathfinding bug, because it turned and drove right into my legs, after which it stopped and sat stationary. Luckily they're small and move slowly so it wasn't a big deal, but that memory stuck with me. Articles about Tesla pathfinding issues always bring it back to the surface.

softwarebeware 5y ago
Obligatory link to Isaac Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics
- adhesive_wombat 5y ago
  Even if the Laws were real (they're not) they won't work if all you have to do is add some adversarial interference to some neural thing to make the robot think that the human is not a human, or, even better, another robot that will harm a human. Then it's a moral imperative under 3LoR to destroy that "robot". This trick also works on humans: you can often circumvent their "protect humans" programming by simply messing with their classification system to label a human as "terrorist", "infidel", or even "unemployed".
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
only4here 5y ago
Saw another HN user's comment about automatic battle-bot features. Maaaybe it's not the best idea in this case!
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I for one welcome our new robotic overlords.
reaperducer 5y ago
when I came close it stopped, as they do when sensing an object in front of them The security robots at one of the big skyscrapers down the street from me do not stop for people. My wife got knocked into by one when we were standing in the plaza looking up something on her phone. (They're not little delivery robots. They're about five feet tall.) Good thing she was confused by what happened, because she's also the type who would have knocked the robot over and asked me to shove it into traffic if she had her wits about her.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  And shoving it into traffic - or at least calling the police and pressing charges - would have been the right thing to do! If you want to use robots, fine. You are still responsible for them and any people they bowl over!
  - bluGill 5y ago
    Probably. This seems like a public space so almost certainly. However if this was private space sometimes the rules are different. Once in a while I have to go into our factory (not even once a year, but sometimes), and they always make it clear that forklifts have the right away so watch out. (forklifts have poor visibility, so by giving them the right of way they ensure nobody expects them to stop - in practice a forklift driver will stop if they see you, but this way they are not expected to see something that is impossible to see)
    - mywittyname 5y ago
      I don't think this shields the company from liability. Instead it provides some ammunition to use in the event of a lawsuit. Things are very different between employees and the general public. I imagine a jury would find that a lady-busting security robot is negligent by default. Whereas, a fork lift driver would be assumed to be doing his job and that situational negligence would need to be proven.
      - 5y ago
agumonkey 5y ago
I don't know why they don't parametrize momentum with certainty. In any confusing situation, go into ultra slow environment scanning and when confidence increases, allow for a bit more.. rinse / repeat.
- erulabs 5y ago
  Tesla does exactly this and it gives rise to the phantom breaking problem. Still seems like a good solution for a small bot with no passengers
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    No? There are numerous clips where Telsas in "full self driving" mode pull the equivalent maneuver of a teenager going "OH SHIT I WANT TO GO THERE" and veering very violently. The phantom braking problem is likely just one of the many symptoms of Musk's insistence on relying on optical systems instead of more expensive sensors.
    - outworlder 5y ago
      > The phantom braking problem is likely just one of the many symptoms of Musk's insistence on relying on optical systems instead of more expensive sensors. Based on what? How would 'expensive' sensors help?
      - bluGill 5y ago
        We know that in some situations expensive sensors can get data that optical cannot. What we don't know is if any of the above is enough extra data. What we do know is there are times when humans are bad drivers, and other times when humans continue when they shouldn't relying on luck. (Ie driving in snow storms with low visibility)
      - Spooky23 5y ago
        Consider your human eyeball. It works really well, but you can get into trouble in certain light or visual conditions. Technology exists (radar, lidar) that doesn’t have the same limitations as visual. (They have their own issues of course)
ok123456 5y ago
I'd just start up-ending them if I had to deal with these on a daily basis. Might even start carrying a sledgehammer for self-protection.
- mywittyname 5y ago
  >just wait for SCOTUS to declare these robots have 2A rights, and they can shoot anything that gets in their way.
js2 5y ago
I’ve had this happen with actual humans. A human is coming toward me on a path. I zig. They zig. I zag. They zag. We walk into each other. It must be some kind of human path finding bug. :-)
- syngrog66 5y ago
  @js2 please check your inbox: you have been recalled
- amelius 5y ago
  You avoid this by using visual cues. E.g. strongly looking into the direction that you want to go. I suppose that most people learn this at an early age. And these robots should too.
  - kevinmchugh 5y ago
    I find that making eye contact always resolves the issue
- vasco 5y ago
  Always go through the right side, is this not a rule in your country? I'm asking not knowing where I learned it, but it definitely is a social norm to take the right side of the sidewalk anytime this may happen. Everyone just does this and it works out great.
  - dgivney 5y ago
    It is the left side in my country. Which creates a problem when people from right-sided countries visit my city. I noticed this in China, a densely populated mostly right-sided country. Whenever a British engineering firm would install escalators they would set the direction opposite to the flow of human traffic. You would walk up to it on the path on the right side and be forced to cross the path of oncoming people to use the escalator on the left before having to cross over again once at the top.
  - opportune 5y ago
DamnableNook 5y ago
Kiwi bots aren't (weren't?) actually AI controlled. They had human drivers in South America that controlled them remotely. If one attacked you, it was either the human driver going agro, or just a problem with the latency of the camera -> cell network -> streamed to South America -> driver inputs command -> sent back to the US -> over the cell network -> back to the bot. And the cameras they have were pretty bad (the ordering app would show you the camera view when the bot was nearing its destination.)
- rolandog 5y ago
  It's depressing to think that companies have normalized passing "mechanical turks" (exploiting workers from an impoverished country) as AI.
  - rexpop 5y ago
    For more in that depressing vein, check out "Ghost Work: How to Stop Silicon Valley from Building a New Global Underclass" by Mary L. Gray
    - iancmceachern 5y ago
      I will, I liked nickel and dimed so I'll give this a read. One side note, in looking up this book to purchase on Amazon, the hardcover is 2 bucks cheaper than the soft cover. I've seen this kind of thing quite a bit lately. What gives?
      - rexpop 5y ago
        If you liked Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed,"[0] you might like a few of her unrelated books as well. I highly recommend her "Dancing in the Streets,"[1] a 5,000 year history of the deadening of European culture (at Europeans' own hands, no less) that pairs nicely with Graeber's "Debt: The First 5,000"[2], a book of similar pacing, as well as a much shorter book on the gendered professionalization/demolition of the medical practice in the medieval era titled "Witches, Midwives, and Nurses" or "W.M.N."[3] Her "Bait and Switch,"[4] however, about the white-collar unemployment industry I found dull and unenlightening. 0. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1869.Nickel_and_Dimed https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1869.Nickel_and_Dimed 1. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24452.Dancing_in_the_Streets https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24452.Dancing_in_the_Str... 2. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt 3. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24453.Witches_Midwives_and_Nurses https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24453.Witches_Midwives_a... 4. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24450.Bait_and_Switch https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24450.Bait_and_Switch
icco 5y ago
I thought this trend was a joke, did not realize people were actually using bots to deliver food.
- HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
  The weird thing is that the first time I realized this was actually happening was watching "Ridiculousness" on MTV. Chanel (one of the hosts) mentioned that she had ordered food delivered and couldn't understand why the app just showed it waiting outside. So she goes out to see why the guy won't come up and ring the doorbell only to realize it was a food delivery robot waiting for her. I live out in the middle of nowhere. Wonder what other stuff I don't know about happening in cities!

softwarebeware 5y ago

Obligatory link to Isaac Asimov's Three Laws of Robotics: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Three_Laws_of_Robotics

adhesive_wombat 5y ago
Even if the Laws were real (they're not) they won't work if all you have to do is add some adversarial interference to some neural thing to make the robot think that the human is not a human, or, even better, another robot that will harm a human. Then it's a moral imperative under 3LoR to destroy that "robot". This trick also works on humans: you can often circumvent their "protect humans" programming by simply messing with their classification system to label a human as "terrorist", "infidel", or even "unemployed".

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

only4here 5y ago

Saw another HN user's comment about automatic battle-bot features. Maaaybe it's not the best idea in this case!

Cthulhu_ 5y ago
I for one welcome our new robotic overlords.

reaperducer 5y ago

when I came close it stopped, as they do when sensing an object in front of them The security robots at one of the big skyscrapers down the street from me do not stop for people. My wife got knocked into by one when we were standing in the plaza looking up something on her phone. (They're not little delivery robots. They're about five feet tall.) Good thing she was confused by what happened, because she's also the type who would have knocked the robot over and asked me to shove it into traffic if she had her wits about her.

vorpalhex 5y ago
And shoving it into traffic - or at least calling the police and pressing charges - would have been the right thing to do! If you want to use robots, fine. You are still responsible for them and any people they bowl over!
- bluGill 5y ago
  Probably. This seems like a public space so almost certainly. However if this was private space sometimes the rules are different. Once in a while I have to go into our factory (not even once a year, but sometimes), and they always make it clear that forklifts have the right away so watch out. (forklifts have poor visibility, so by giving them the right of way they ensure nobody expects them to stop - in practice a forklift driver will stop if they see you, but this way they are not expected to see something that is impossible to see)
  - mywittyname 5y ago
    I don't think this shields the company from liability. Instead it provides some ammunition to use in the event of a lawsuit. Things are very different between employees and the general public. I imagine a jury would find that a lady-busting security robot is negligent by default. Whereas, a fork lift driver would be assumed to be doing his job and that situational negligence would need to be proven.
    - 5y ago

agumonkey 5y ago

I don't know why they don't parametrize momentum with certainty. In any confusing situation, go into ultra slow environment scanning and when confidence increases, allow for a bit more.. rinse / repeat.

erulabs 5y ago
Tesla does exactly this and it gives rise to the phantom breaking problem. Still seems like a good solution for a small bot with no passengers
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  No? There are numerous clips where Telsas in "full self driving" mode pull the equivalent maneuver of a teenager going "OH SHIT I WANT TO GO THERE" and veering very violently. The phantom braking problem is likely just one of the many symptoms of Musk's insistence on relying on optical systems instead of more expensive sensors.
  - outworlder 5y ago
    > The phantom braking problem is likely just one of the many symptoms of Musk's insistence on relying on optical systems instead of more expensive sensors. Based on what? How would 'expensive' sensors help?
    - bluGill 5y ago
      We know that in some situations expensive sensors can get data that optical cannot. What we don't know is if any of the above is enough extra data. What we do know is there are times when humans are bad drivers, and other times when humans continue when they shouldn't relying on luck. (Ie driving in snow storms with low visibility)
    - Spooky23 5y ago
      Consider your human eyeball. It works really well, but you can get into trouble in certain light or visual conditions. Technology exists (radar, lidar) that doesn’t have the same limitations as visual. (They have their own issues of course)

ok123456 5y ago

I'd just start up-ending them if I had to deal with these on a daily basis. Might even start carrying a sledgehammer for self-protection.

mywittyname 5y ago
>just wait for SCOTUS to declare these robots have 2A rights, and they can shoot anything that gets in their way.

js2 5y ago

I’ve had this happen with actual humans. A human is coming toward me on a path. I zig. They zig. I zag. They zag. We walk into each other. It must be some kind of human path finding bug. :-)

syngrog66 5y ago
@js2 please check your inbox: you have been recalled
amelius 5y ago
You avoid this by using visual cues. E.g. strongly looking into the direction that you want to go. I suppose that most people learn this at an early age. And these robots should too.
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  I find that making eye contact always resolves the issue
vasco 5y ago
Always go through the right side, is this not a rule in your country? I'm asking not knowing where I learned it, but it definitely is a social norm to take the right side of the sidewalk anytime this may happen. Everyone just does this and it works out great.
- dgivney 5y ago
  It is the left side in my country. Which creates a problem when people from right-sided countries visit my city. I noticed this in China, a densely populated mostly right-sided country. Whenever a British engineering firm would install escalators they would set the direction opposite to the flow of human traffic. You would walk up to it on the path on the right side and be forced to cross the path of oncoming people to use the escalator on the left before having to cross over again once at the top.
- opportune 5y ago

DamnableNook 5y ago

Kiwi bots aren't (weren't?) actually AI controlled. They had human drivers in South America that controlled them remotely. If one attacked you, it was either the human driver going agro, or just a problem with the latency of the camera -> cell network -> streamed to South America -> driver inputs command -> sent back to the US -> over the cell network -> back to the bot. And the cameras they have were pretty bad (the ordering app would show you the camera view when the bot was nearing its destination.)

rolandog 5y ago
It's depressing to think that companies have normalized passing "mechanical turks" (exploiting workers from an impoverished country) as AI.
- rexpop 5y ago
  For more in that depressing vein, check out "Ghost Work: How to Stop Silicon Valley from Building a New Global Underclass" by Mary L. Gray
  - iancmceachern 5y ago
    I will, I liked nickel and dimed so I'll give this a read. One side note, in looking up this book to purchase on Amazon, the hardcover is 2 bucks cheaper than the soft cover. I've seen this kind of thing quite a bit lately. What gives?
    - rexpop 5y ago
      If you liked Barbara Ehrenreich's "Nickel and Dimed,"[0] you might like a few of her unrelated books as well. I highly recommend her "Dancing in the Streets,"[1] a 5,000 year history of the deadening of European culture (at Europeans' own hands, no less) that pairs nicely with Graeber's "Debt: The First 5,000"[2], a book of similar pacing, as well as a much shorter book on the gendered professionalization/demolition of the medical practice in the medieval era titled "Witches, Midwives, and Nurses" or "W.M.N."[3] Her "Bait and Switch,"[4] however, about the white-collar unemployment industry I found dull and unenlightening. 0. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1869.Nickel_and_Dimed https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1869.Nickel_and_Dimed 1. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24452.Dancing_in_the_Streets https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24452.Dancing_in_the_Str... 2. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/6617037-debt 3. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24453.Witches_Midwives_and_Nurses https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24453.Witches_Midwives_a... 4. https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24450.Bait_and_Switch https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/24450.Bait_and_Switch

icco 5y ago

I thought this trend was a joke, did not realize people were actually using bots to deliver food.

HeyLaughingBoy 5y ago
The weird thing is that the first time I realized this was actually happening was watching "Ridiculousness" on MTV. Chanel (one of the hosts) mentioned that she had ordered food delivered and couldn't understand why the app just showed it waiting outside. So she goes out to see why the guy won't come up and ring the doorbell only to realize it was a food delivery robot waiting for her. I live out in the middle of nowhere. Wonder what other stuff I don't know about happening in cities!