24 ms·
How can minorities of regular individuals overturn social conventions?
- navbaker 5y agoI definitely don't want to go back to the social convention of feeling like I have to shake hands every time I meet someone. It went away once Covid hit, but I have a feeling it will come creeping back. Anyone had luck turning down handshakes without coming across as rude, particularly in a business setting? I've found it easier to turn down using self-deprecating humor in a social setting.
- imwillofficial 5y agoFamous speakers I’ve meet have intercepted the handshake with a fist bump in my pre Covid days.
- foobarian 5y agoAt least we don't have the unfortunate custom of two opposite cheek kisses like the Italians. Boy was that awkward when I realized people here thought I was some kind of Borat weirdo.
- ithkuil 5y agoWait to see places where you have to give three kisses!
- moron4hire 5y agoI used to tell people my carpal tunnel was too bad to do handshakes. Or sometimes I'd tell them I had just sneezed on my hand. There was one guy I just flat out told, "I'm not going to shake your hand". Ex-coworker, was never polite to me when we were working together, actively sabotaged my tenure there, had the nerve to look hurt.
- DiggyJohnson 5y agoNot trying to start a flamewar on anything, but that seems very unprofessional/counter-productive, so I'm just trying to understand your thought process here. Do you have a phobia of physical touch? I shake the hands of departing coworkers even if we have a cool relationship. It's a simple, polite, no-frills way of saying "goodbye". You're not giving them grace or anything. Is it not more difficult to refuse and say "I'm not going to shake your hand" than it is to shake and move on? If they were impolite, you come across as hostile. Just curious for more details.
- moron4hire 5y agoI don't usually avoid handshakes, but I don't offer them, either. Handshakes are very culturally specific. I've learned to not assume everyone wants a handshake. For example, I've met several Muslim women who felt uncomfortable shaking hands with men, but often felt obligated to reciprocate. In my current job, I run into so many people of so many different cultures that it's best to stay on the safe side and avoid putting someone in such a situation. And while I don't have a phobia of most physical touch, there are people who use the handshake as an excuse to take a hug. When I identify those people, I try to avoid the hand shake. "Sorry, I'm just a hugger" is not an excuse for violating someone's personal space. I'm not a "hugger". If I don't know you, don't touch me in that overly familiar way. As for the guy I flat-out refused: it was a game night organized by some of my ex-colleagues, about 50/50 a mix of people who were still at the company and folks like me who were no longer there. This guy was not invited but somehow found out about it and crashed the party. Part of why I was no longer with the company was because he had decided he didn't like that I had taken leave when my 2nd child was born and went out of his way to keep me from getting assigned to projects and even tanked a successful project that I was building. I also think "professionalism" is highly overrated, especially when people use "professionalism for thee, but not for me" to stymie backlash against their toxic behavior. In the grand scheme of things, he's a nobody. That's not to say I'm a "somebody", but rather I don't think refusing his handshake is going to have any kind of impact on my career.
- gowld 5y ago> "I'm not going to shake your hand". That only had the intended effect because you constrasted it against handshaking. It wouldn't work if you didn't touch anyone.
- klyrs 5y ago> Or sometimes I'd tell them I had just sneezed on my hand. How many people pick their noses when nobody is watching, and don't wash their hands?
- moron4hire 5y agoSit at a busy traffic intersection sometime and just watch people in their cars. It's a lot.
- commandlinefan 5y agoWatch how many men leave public restrooms without washing their hands, too.
- dahfizz 5y agoI normally just go for a fist bump if they put their hand out for a handshake, and they almost always oblige. I don't find myself in formal business situations often, though.
- raxxorrax 5y agoNever understood what problem people have with shaking hands.
- kayodelycaon 5y agoNever understood the problem people have with hugs… Everyone has a different level of physical touch they desire and a level that they are comfortable with.
- unfocussed_mike 5y agoI honestly lament that the hugging culture in my wider social circle has probably permanently gone away (if that social circle ever really recovers, considering it was built around small venue music and art). The permanent loss of warmth in my life is very noticeable.
- moron4hire 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- rhacker 5y agoThat is a pretty rude comment. What is this person foisting on other people?
- unfocussed_mike 5y agoOK then.
- klyrs 5y agoHugs are great! But, where dudes can be creepy with a handshake, a hug is much more vulnerable. Hugs are for trusted friends.
- 5y ago
- DiggyJohnson 5y agoI miss handshakes. As a young male, I value a convention that requires men to be in contact with one another, and to look each other in the eyes. I've taken to fistbumps, but I miss handshakes. I also despise the idea of everyone being on different wavelengths regarding greeting gestures for the next 15 years. I don't want to be a part of this friction! This problem isn't going to keep me from being happy, or putting food on the table, but a lot of good work started with shared trust and a handshake.
- gowld 5y ago> requires men to be in contact with one another, and to look each other in the eyes. Why? That favors con artists over honestly nervous people.
- 7steps2much 5y agoI can only speak for myself, but it's nice to have physical contact with people. An easy way to battle the touch starvation
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- moron4hire 5y agoWhy do you need physical touch from relative strangers?
- kerneloftruth 5y agoWhen you don't want them to remain strangers.
- simonsarris 5y agoI'm baffled at how millennia old* rituals involved with no-longer-being-strangers are lost on some commenters https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Funerary_stele_of_Thraseas_and_Euandria_Antikensammlung_Berlin_01.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Funerary_stele_of_Thrasea... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OTArsameiaSockelIIIDexiosis.jpg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:OTArsameiaSockelIIIDexios...
- throwaway22032 5y agoI don't consider people who refuse to shake my hand to be rude. Generally I consider them to be hypochondriacs. This places them directly in opposition to me, because it strongly correlates with their likelihood to be in the 'cus covid' clan. In that case, there is no way to avoid being rude, because the reason you don't want to do the thing is precisely the reason I _do_ want to, as a show of resistance against antisocial behaviours.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- wonderwonder 5y agoexactly, its also very important to me that I judge individuals over a single polarizing issue and discard anything else that makes them a human. My reaction to other peoples opinion on that issue also totally makes everyone else a whacko and not me. /S
- throwaway22032 5y agoRefusing a handshake is an action, it's not an opinion. I don't really care what opinions my friends and business contacts hold, but if their actions show that they're afraid of even touching me then like, we're just not going to get on, what's the point? Call it a day, plenty of fish.
- Cd00d 5y agoI don't think it's helpful to make assumptions about the reason for someone's personal preference or comfort and then to deny them the respect of empathy. If you're rude because you jump to the conclusion that I "irrationally" fear covid, you may need to consider that you're at risk of radicalization. Just a thought.
- throwaway22032 5y agoIf conservatism is radical to you, that's cool by me. At the end of the day, we don't need to agree.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- DoreenMichele 5y agoI have a serious medical condition. I rarely shake hands because of it. I get sick easily and avoiding exposure to germs is an important means for me to stay off drugs and out of the ER. I work from home. My life is online, so I mostly just avoid the issue. To whatever degree you can handle things by phone or Zoom or whatever, that's one means to make it less of an issue. When I have had to meet people, I have successfully turned down handshakes at times. Body language can sometimes help sidestep the question. Not sure how to explain that but just don't be "open" to it and some people won't offer their hand. If they offer and I must decline, I'm polite, warm, friendly and assure them "It's not you. It's me." Practice makes perfect. The first few times may feel awkward but it gets better.
- PuppyTailWags 5y ago> In particular, we show that the critical mass required to induce norm change is dramatically reduced when non-committed members of the population are less susceptible to social influence than previously assumed. What precisely does this mean? It's not intuitive that it takes a smaller number of people to change a norm when others are less likely to change from influence.
- mLuby 5y agoPerhaps it's commenting on the level of entrenchment of the norm: it'd be easier for one good argument to sway those with "strong opinions weakly held" than it is to sway folks who say "I'll change when everyone else does too."
- yamrzou 5y agoA possible explanation is that when non-committed members are more susceptible to social influence, they are more likely to side with the majority. From the paper: > However, as consensus becomes easier (increasing β), the social influence within groups tends to favour the name of the initial majority (B).
- sleepingadmin 5y agoFlagged
- dang 5y agoPlease read the site guidelines: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html.
- sleepingadmin 5y agoHello Dang, Out of curiosity, what rule did I break? I had a fairly long post. I had people responding to me but I guess I can't respond to anymore?: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30361631 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30361631 Mikeyouse said: >And that idiotic CNN chyron was clipped to be troll bait for the credulous. If you honestly believe that's how the protests were covered, you should spend some time reflecting on where you get your news and who you trust. This was in response to me posting: https://twitter.com/JoeConchaTV/status/1298863702272344064 https://twitter.com/JoeConchaTV/status/1298863702272344064 and making comment. This was in the context of my post explaining how non-violence similar to MLKjr and Ghandi is an absolute rule. That saying 'peaceful protest' while standing in front of cars on fire is a violation of the rule. I feel this is a reasonable and fair discussion.
- dang 5y agoI interpreted your comment to mean "I flagged this submission," which would be breaking the site guideline "If you flag, please don't also comment that you did." Now that I've looked more closely, I realize that you actually originally posted a totally different comment and then effectively deleted it (by overwriting it with "Flagged"). Normally we ask people not to do that—you can use the 'delete' link as long as the comment has no replies. In this case, your comment got one reply but the replier subsequently deleted it. This is a corner case. It might even be a bug in our software if the 'delete' link didn't reappear. Edit: I checked the code and I don't see that bug, so I believe there would have been a 'delete' link at the time you edited your comment.
- wonderwonder 5y agoI wonder if social media has weakened our focus to the point where long term change is difficult. BLM matter had a massive run out the gate and then nothing really changed. The Amir Locke shooting has not really taken on a national protest atmosphere like earlier shooting did. There are just so many things to notice today on social media that its difficult to focus on one. You have both sides politically calling for the end of the world if the other side wins, people acting like Joe Rogan is one of the four horsemen of the apocalypse, etc. Everything no matter how niche is presented as an emergency. Human minds can only focus on so many concurrent emergencies so everything just kind of fades away eventually.
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y agoFor all my dislike of BLM, it is hard to argue that they did not have impact on culture, nation psyche or even law framework. I agree with your 'next emergency' characterization though.
- __turbobrew__ 5y agoA few decade ago nobody really cared about black history month in Canada — it was basically a non event. Now I see black history month based ads and programs on TV all the time in Canada. Black issues have a disproportionate media and culture presence in Canada given the small proportion of black people in Canada. You also see numerous Canadian companies making statements regarding black issues and events. You never hear about Asian history month or Native American history month. You also never hear Canadian companies making statements regarding Native issues and events such as the genocide of Native people and culture just a few decades ago. In Canada BLM has greatly raised the profile of black issues and somewhat effectively pushed the “silence is compliance” narrative which many companies have bought into.
- lalaland1125 5y ago> BLM matter had a massive run out the gate and then nothing really changed This is quite incorrect. There have been some pretty large changes in our criminal justice system over the last 2 years. The main changes have been: - Reform District Attorneys like Gascon have been elected in many major cities - Elimination of cash bail in many parts of the US, most importantly New York (we were also very close to eliminating cash bail in California, but bail bond companies invested heavily to stop that) - Biden appointing a bunch of public defenders to federal courts
- A4ET8a8uTh0 5y ago“The reasonable man adapts himself to the world: the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.” As many here, I am skeptical of the results. There is only a reference to 40% of the population as the main finding, but I did not see a clear reference to the relative power of each individual in the population, power centers or all of the other little pieces that could easily undermine the result.
- commandlinefan 5y ago“Never doubt that a small group of thoughtful, committed, citizens can change the world. Indeed, it is the only thing that ever has.” ― Margaret Mead
- adolph 5y agoSee also Taleb's "The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority" https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dictatorship-of-the-small-minority-3f1f83ce4e15 https://medium.com/incerto/the-most-intolerant-wins-the-dict...
- dang 5y agoDiscussed a few times here: The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2015) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20837171 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=20837171 - Aug 2019 (76 comments) The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority (2016) - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16454645 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16454645 - Feb 2018 (214 comments) The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12576184 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12576184 - Sept 2016 (6 comments) The Dictatorship of the Small Minority by Nassim Nicholas Taleb - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12298753 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12298753 - Aug 2016 (20 comments) The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12290770 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12290770 - Aug 2016 (10 comments) The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dictatorship of the Small Minority - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12285545 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12285545 - Aug 2016 (55 comments) The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dominance of the Stubborn Minority [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10687471 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10687471 - Dec 2015 (20 comments) The Most Intolerant Wins: The Dominance of the Stubborn Minority [pdf] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10567630 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=10567630 - Nov 2015 (52 comments)
- PuppyTailWags 5y agoI'm confused by this analysis. It cites no other resources beyond wikipedia, a dude's take on twitter, and an msn article when the other article actually has citations to other research. Where is your evidence that the 40% is "intentionally wrong; propaganda"? It's pointing to numerous other studies where the number ranges from 10 to 40% and examines why. This seems like a bad faith understanding of what the research is trying to accomplish.
- HPsquared 5y agoI think it's more about organization and motivation, not just the number of people. The "silent majority" doesn't even get their way in many cases, so what hope would a disorganized minority have?
- redisman 5y agoMost social movements of the last 5 years haven’t been all that organized though. Usually there’s no clear leadership. It’s all memes
- koreanguy 5y ago
- RobRivera 5y agoplacate the need for change through low effort seemingly impactful convenience, you quall motivation for change
- ihsw 5y ago
- notacoward 5y agoKey finding: "the critical mass required to induce norm change is dramatically reduced when non-committed members of the population are less susceptible to social influence than previously assumed" This suggests a corollary: that a general weakening of people's receptivity to social influence makes disruption of norms easier and thus more frequent. This seems closely related to the ongoing "truth decay" efforts which - not specific policy positions - are the primary focus of professional disinformation groups.
- karpierz 5y agoThis paper presents a hypothetical model for opinion changing, but doesn't actually try and validate that the model applies to the real world. The empirical datasets that they use are only to inform what the graphs look like, not whether the model accurately models social change. I don't like that the way this work is presented implies that this model says anything about our world.
- druadh 5y agoI can't understand what this title is saying
- imwillofficial 5y agoWhat do you mean? You don’t understand how a special group of non special people can change things? ;)
- LoveGracePeace 5y agoI tried to read the article. It comes across to me as unrequited teen angst culminating in parabolic disharmony; kind of like a Picasso painting.
- shard 5y agoJust curious what is it about Picasso's paintings that come across as unrequited teen angst?
- lcall 5y agoFWIW, there is a very interesting book called _Influencer_, by Patterson, Grenny, Maxfield, McMillan, and Switzler. It says to change things there are 6 areas to work on, which it presents in a 2x3 chart with 2 headings across the top: Movitation and Ability, and 3 down the left side: Personal, Social, and Structural. Then in that chart, the rows say: 1 make the undesirable desirable 2 surpass your limits 3 harness peer pressure 4 find strength in numbers 5 design rewards and demand accountability 6 change the environment Then it tells interesting stories and gives suggestions for doing each of those. Like one about a restaurant staffed by former felons, and the rules they have to make it work. Or about eliminating a bad disease in Africa (guinea worm?). Really an interesting read. Edit: I'm not sure though whether to classify with the advertising/marketing books that aim to show how to manipulate people. They present good things i think, and one becomes enthusastic in reading. But there is the whole consideration of what is really in the best interest of individuals and us all, and do we choose it based on maturity and understanding, or are manipulated, and is the manipulation ever a good thing. Too tired to say better about that at the moment. :) (and late to the discussion anyway, nor do I remember now if they discuss that in the book. ~"use it for good not evil...") I think the book is mentioned in wikipedia also.
- lcall 5y ago(Or it is just a matter of honesty and the Golden Rule.)