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San Francisco police linked a woman to a crime using DNA from her rape exam
- olliej 5y agoThis should not be surprising. Police in general don't care about rape - it's hard to accept the "hard to get a conviction" argument when they have years of backlogged rape kits[1], which is further appalling when you find out that when they do actually test them they final serial rapists[2]. This is even when the police already only test "believable" claims[3], so the backlog is already biased towards conviction. Then even when caught in the act rapists can get off without any significant penalties[4], leading to victims attempting suicide[5]. No, it isn't a matter of rapes being hard to convict, it's that police just don't care if a woman gets raped[6]. Which isn't surprising given the high rates of abuse in police households[7], and can rape people in custody[8]. They then have the gall to say "defunding means they aren't solving crime". They weren't solving crimes when they had more funding, and have demonstrated they will happily change what they report to make their numbers look however they want [6 again] [1] https://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/what-rape-kit-backlog https://www.endthebacklog.org/backlog/what-rape-kit-backlog [2] https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/08/an-epidemic-of-disbelief/592807/ https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2019/08/an-epid... [3] https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/07/why-dont-more-college-rape-victims-come-forward/593875/ https://www.theatlantic.com/education/archive/2019/07/why-do... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_v._Turner https://www.fox26houston.com/news/father-calls-out-judge-for-giving-daughters-rapist-a-light-sentence https://www.fox26houston.com/news/father-calls-out-judge-for... https://www.insider.com/judge-teen-accused-rape-deserves-leniency-good-family-excels-academically-2019-7 https://www.insider.com/judge-teen-accused-rape-deserves-len... https://abcnews.go.com/US/inappropriately-light-sentences-sexual-assault-cases-hurt-reporting/story?id=59748226 https://abcnews.go.com/US/inappropriately-light-sentences-se... https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/24/man-convicted-prep-school-sexual-assault-released-early/1549092001/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2019/06/24/man-co... and on and on [5] https://jezebel.com/illinois-judge-reverses-conviction-of-18-year-old-rapis-1848344571 https://jezebel.com/illinois-judge-reverses-conviction-of-18... [6] https://www.startribune.com/ignoring-rape-complaints-when-police-fail-to-protect-and-serve/489385841/ https://www.startribune.com/ignoring-rape-complaints-when-po... https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/17/abolish-police-sexual-assault-violence https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2020/jun/17/abolis... https://gothamist.com/news/report-nypd-has-systematically-undercounted-rapes-in-nyc-for-years https://gothamist.com/news/report-nypd-has-systematically-un... https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/19/thousands-of-reports-inaccurately-recorded-by-police https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/sep/19/thousands-of... https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/us/rape-victims-kits-police-departments.html https://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/23/us/rape-victims-kits-poli... [7] https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-officers-who-hit-their-wives-or-girlfriends/380329/ https://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2014/09/police-... [8] https://theintercept.com/2019/08/30/nypd-anna-chambers-rape-probation/ https://theintercept.com/2019/08/30/nypd-anna-chambers-rape-...
- abandonliberty 5y agoHeadlines like your [6], "Ignoring rape complaints: When police fail to protect and serve," are only scratching the surface when you consider cases like Warren[9]. Women called 911 twice during a home invasion, assistance never came. Instead they were raped for 14 hours. Police have no duty to protect any particular person. Not caring about a person is legal precedent. This is an extension of the lack of "duty to rescue" in much English-written commonlaw; in much of Europe, Latin America, and Africa even normal citizens are legally required to render aid to people in need[10]. [9] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Warren_v._District_of_Columbia [10] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue#Civil_law_system https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue#Civil_law_syste...
- cup 5y agoThis is reprehensible and further evidence of the systemic rot within all police forces.
- loudtieblahblah 5y agoSo she should have gotten away with a crime bc she was raped? I didn't realize being a victim meant you couldn't be a perp of other crimes.
- retrac 5y agoIt's kind of like how we probably shouldn't arrest people without legal residency when they show up at the police station to report a serious crime. Yes, they're violating the terms of their visa, but ensuring people in that position continue to report even more serious crimes is probably more important.
- eindiran 5y agoNo, but we will likely see fewer people coming forward about being raped if they are know that their rape kit can and will be used against them in the future. The SFPD's mistake here is allowing the db of victim DNA from rape kits to ever interface with the general DNA database they use.
- space_fountain 5y agoNo of course not, but a victim you should be able to get justice even if you are also a criminal
- comradesmith 5y agoI don’t think that’s a logical reading. The point is that being raped shouldn’t have made her more likely to be caught. I think this is a fair stance to take, as DNA from rape kits being used for future tracking of the raped is going to disincentivise the use of rape kits. I want to live in a world with less sexual violence, and if rape victims can submit DNA evidence without having to worry about state tracking (and those kits actually be analysed) then I think we can get a step closer to that world.
- iqanq 5y ago
- Avshalom 5y agonot like, in the same day.
- bobthepanda 5y agoThe rape was years ago and part of a domestic abuse case.
- kumarvvr 5y agoWhy? Don't criminals also experience crimes against themselves?
- brnaftr361 5y agoDisproportionately so.
- karmasimida 5y agoRegardless Hand your biometric to government it in their rights now, regarding how to use it. Warning to us all.
- toomuchtodo 5y agoYou leave your DNA everywhere. You leave it on pop cans you drink from, with hair and skin you shed, not to mention DNA relatives who willingly share with anyone who will sequence and store their DNA (23andme, Ancestory, and so forth). Any expectation of privacy regarding DNA is not grounded in reality. Perhaps the warning is to not commit the crime.
- eindiran 5y agoI was about to comment that in the next few years we would start seeing people who are willing to let the government biometrically finger fuck them because its pointless to fight back, but here you are proving that the battle was already lost and people are willing to roll over and take it already.
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- omgwtfbyobbq 5y agoThe possible 4th amendment/Victim's Bill of Rights violations here are not the same as the lack privacy with private companies/DNA collection from items you discard.
- mLuby 5y agoCool cool cool. So can jobs (say schools), some of which require fingerprinting now, require a DNA sample too? Think of the children this might save from vile criminals! And think of the control this would gives employers over the health and genetic make-up of their prospective employees! There Is No Gene For The Human Spirit.
- DantesKite 5y agoDNA genetic testing has been such a breakthrough for cold cases these past couple years. So many unsolved murders finally being solved.
- WalterBright 5y agoIs solving a few cold cases really worth the wholesale surrender of everyone's privacy?
- mrtweetyhack 5y agoIs preventing the next rape/murder not worth it?
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoI fail to see the preventative aspect. The system really isn't set up for that.
- cfcosta 5y agoBy indexing rape victims DNA?
- DoreenMichele 5y agoUsing a rape victim's DNA from her rape kit without consent etc is much more likely to promote rape than to prevent it.
- ajkdhcb2 5y agoNo, it is not worth it, and in the long-run may not have the desired effect. For me, after seeing this, I would possibly not report being raped. Arresting the rapist isn't going to directly help me (depending on the situation), so by selfish game theory I shouldn't risk compromising my DNA
- tcmart14 5y agoIts a letter of the law versus spirit of the law. I am of the later. Investigating one crime does not inherently give permission to use data from that crime to start trying to solve other crimes unless they are directly connected, i.e. tying a bunch of murders together with similarities because it may be a serial killer instead of one off murders.
- Ovah 5y agoIf a DNA sample is taken from an assault victim, how is the DNA from the victim (technically) distinguished from that of perpetrator? Why isn't the readout an average of perpetrator and victim? Of course the perpetrator's readout should be saved but not the victim's. At least where I am from (iirc) there is no sequencing involved. Instead the DNA is cut with restriction enzymes. Basically restriction enzyme + a persons DNA gives a unique fragment pattern.
- aksss 5y agoI assume that police departments will retain DNA from every sample they can get their hands on, just like fingerprints. You're in a DB at that point, and it's useful data (demonstrably). I'd be surprised if many police departments have a privacy policy, much less comply with it, regarding your rights after a DNA sample is taken, relative the auspices under which they collected it. Assume the worst if you're at all worried about your DNA being on file somewhere.
- Ovah 5y agoI guess I could have been more clear. My question is about the lab side of things. Indefinite and indiscriminate data retention is definitely a problem although a different one.
- toomanyrichies 5y agoSpeculating here, but presumably the victim is willing and able to supply their own DNA as an elimination sample. Whatever DNA is left over gets run through a database, and possibly matched with an identity. If the identity comes with a photo, the victim may well be able to verify whether that photo is that of their attacker.
- kumarvvr 5y agoDNA samples would have been taken from victim directly, for comparison. I guess samples and records also include location of sample collection (hair, skin, mouth, etc), time, date, circumstance, etc.
- belorn 5y agoThis is similar to why police should not use DNA collected for medical research. Resolving the police case might help a victim, but the harm to the original purpose of collecting DNA has a potential risk of doing untold harm if people stop providing DNA in fear that the database might be misused. This discussion occur repeatedly here in Sweden when ever there is a major unsolved murder that gather large media attention, as then there is a lot of pressure to resolve the crime and the data is there in the computer. They will go onto news media and say, whats the harm if they just take a small peek?
- Gustomaximus 5y agoWhat would the pros/cons be if we did the opposite, if everyone at birth had a DNA swab taken and recorded. Apply strict rules about individual viewing access for criminality only with clear logs and then it was open at some anonymised / grouped level for research. It kind of feels wrong but why? I absolutely see issues if this was open information or if the private sector was allowed to use it in decision making about people. But if done with strict implementation around usage and privacy for criminal activity would this create more societal benefit than negative? Also people could request their own information for health risks type information and then adjust life if this would benefit possible health outcomes. Are the risks focused around bad implementation of the system and/or slippery slope type arguments?
- chrismcb 5y agoWhat would be the pros? What good could come from it?
- speleding 5y agoThere is an entire class of crime that would all of a sudden become much easier to solve. It's very hard to rape someone or to break into a house without leaving any DNA trace. I understand all the counter arguments, and I don't take them lightly, but I think that properly implemented this could be a net benefit to society. And if it doesn't work as desired we can simply change it or stop doing it. The press and parliament are sure to keep a close eye on this. (I live in a democracy that functions fairly well, I'm not sure I would still be in favour if I lived in another country).
- falcolas 5y agoDNA is a genie that's flown far and free from their bottle. Even if you are not in the system directly (from, say, 23&me, rape kits, arrests, etc), someone within 2-3 degrees of separation on your family tree is. It's enough for you to be identified in most cases. If you haven't watched the video Veritasium did about the Golden State Killer, I highly recommend it. It details quite nicely how if anybody has your DNA sample, the police have access to it. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT18KJouHWg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KT18KJouHWg Bonus points for noticing how many of these company reps who tout "nothing to hide" like protecting their own privacy.
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- toomanyrichies 5y agohttps://web.archive.org/web/20220214231643/https://www.sfchronicle.com/sf/article/San-Francisco-police-linked-a-woman-to-a-crime-16918673.php https://web.archive.org/web/20220214231643/https://www.sfchr...
- xbar 5y agoSociety will feel less free if all police are permitted to have the unregulated right to collect and indefinitely retain DNA from any source in a searchable database. Society would feel more free if every police officer's DNA was stored in nationally searchable database and indefinitely retained.
- version_five 5y agoThat's very reasonable. Police and public office holders should require their DNA sequence to be available online, and all DNA collected in association with crimes can also be published. That way civic minded citizens can have a tool to track down potential offenders, and also to identify any genetic predisposition to health conditions so they can help the officers get the support they need. If it's good enough for rape victims, it should be fine for the police right? Since they have nothing to hide, as upholders of our laws, they will have nothing to worry about.
- tcmart14 5y agoWow, do they not have to get blood draws before entering the force? I know little about police officers, but I know during in-processing into the military, at some point you get blood drawn and your told that the information from that will go into the CODIS database for ever and always. Or at least I remember MEPS mentioning that when I was enlisting in the Navy.
- torstenvl 5y agoI remember something vaguely similar, but don't think that's accurate. New CODIS DNA draws are done when CODIS entry is triggered (after conviction or IRO retention in confinement, for qualifying offenses). You can even get CODIS entries expunged if there's a non-criminal disposition (e.g., accused retained in confinement at IRO later deals out via SILT or NJP/board waiver). If I had to guess, the accession DNA draw is solely for identifying remains, and CODIS is maintained entirely separately, though I don't have anything to back that up off the top of my head.
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- walterbell 5y agoGood thing that Covid tests don't sequence/record patient DNA, as test results are aggregated by Palantir and others.
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- throwaway0a5e 5y agoThe cynic in me says they DGAF the message this sends because rapes are hard to get a conviction for so they'd rather not have the cases be opened in the first place because it makes their stats look better.
- DoreenMichele 5y agoI hope you are wrong. I generally like to err in the direction of "Don't chalk up to malice what is readily explained by stupidity." Though in this case I would say probably failure to think things through adequately.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoSeems like as I get older I find my self being correct much more often than I want to be. If you divvy up responsibility sufficiently malice at an organizational level is indistinguishable from all the individual actors within optimizing for achieving their own little KPIs. Generally speaking most people do their jobs satisfactorily. Nobody needs to be incompetent to get bad results. "Not my fault a little old lady got shot, I just check the spelling on the paperwork."
- DoreenMichele 5y agoSex is a fairly private and personal matter for most people. This creates inherent barriers to "society" working things out on this topic.
- imtringued 5y agoThis is also true of capitalism. Companies and the wealthy don't conspire against you, they just follow a flawed profit motive that does not fall to 0% as perfect market theory predicts. The ugliness does not come from malice, it comes from externalities. You don't see the damage you cause and once someone tells you to look it is too late and you must pretend to be ignorant.
- 5y ago
- tinalumfoil 5y agoLooking up prior convictions seems necessary to establishing the credibility of someone filing a police report. You shouldn't be able to use the police to resolve crimes against you, yet expect yourself immune to the same legal system in which you seek benefit. This is particularly pernicious in communities where trust in the police is low, because if you "break rank" you can force the police onto the community, but the community as a whole can't benefit from what you bring to the police.
- s1artibartfast 5y agoDupe comment for visibility : All 50 states require DNA samples at birth. Some states destroy the blood spots after a year, 12 states store them for at least 21 years. California stores DNA samples indefinitely and has collected from every baby born after 1983. They mainly use the data for research but also sell it to private companies. https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/california-biobank-dna-babies-who-has-access/ https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cbsnews.com/amp/news/califo...
- winrid 5y agoWhy do they need to keep the samples? Can't they analyze it and just store the data, or is the comparison purely a chemical reaction?
- s1artibartfast 5y agoI imagine that the tests done routinely at childbirth are not a full genome sequencing. The samples can be kept for full sequencing later in the event of a sale or research project.
- ls15 5y ago> California stores DNA samples indefinitely and has collected from every baby born after 1983. They mainly use the data for research but also sell it to private companies. And people are fine with that?
- system2 5y agoWhat can they do with the DNA other than checking crimes or mapping genomes?
- sterlind 5y agosell it to insurers to bar people with genetic disorders and predispositions from acquiring life, disability and long-term care insurance. GINA prohibits discrimination on genotype by health insurance and employers, but those kinds of insurance are left in as loopholes. (I support the California system, it helps a lot in medical research, I just want the loophole patched.) source: https://archive.fo/SHfBT https://archive.fo/SHfBT
- fargle 5y agoAs potentially upsetting this all may be, Isn't the truth, the truth? I mean, did she do the property crime or not? If she did why do we have a problem with the way we got to the truth? In this world, or the world of the last 10,000 years, you should live life as if everybody can see everything. If you don't like that, well too badsy. Be nicer.
- txru 5y agoOne could use an argument much like this to argue for compelling other self-incriminating testimony.
- PeterisP 5y agoThere's nothing to argue - you definitely can be compelled to provide self-incriminating evidence including blood samples; the fifth amendment exemption is solely about actual testimony.
- ibejoeb 5y agoRight: you can be compelled to give blood, for example. But the fourth should apply. That being said, we probably don't have too much time before we have to distinguish between the notions of 1) being compelled to testify and 2) having one's own account being taken without the need to actively testify.
- PeterisP 5y agoI believe that they are fully distinguished already; taking over your accounts without the need to actively testify seems comparable to taking the contents of your safe or contents of your private correspondence or contents of your storage box at someone else's place - clearly permissible if (but only if) there's a warrant for that.
- chrismcb 5y agoIn this case it "worked" but what about the false positives, the cases where it didn't work. This is why we have rules against illegal searches and the right to remain silent.
- tpoacher 5y agoIsn't this the very definition of the Prosecutor's Fallacy?