15 ms·

Meta is not threatening to leave Europe

140 points by gabea 5y ago

realusername 5y ago
> Much like 70 other EU and US companies, we are identifying a business risk resulting from uncertainty around international data transfers. Funny how they try to spin it like there's some "uncertainty", the regulations are very clear, they just need to apply them.
api 5y ago
Too bad for the Europeans then... a lot of them were looking forward to that.
fnord77 5y ago
that bluff failed spectacularly. How out of touch does management have to be to not realize FB needs europe a lot more than europe needs facebook? the reaction in my circles has been almost universally "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out"
peakaboo 5y ago
What a shame. Would love if they left.
- irrational 5y ago
  Same everywhere. The world would be so much better without Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, WeChat, LinkedIn, etc.
  - hn_version_0023 5y ago
    Agreed. With so many centralized services making up what the average person thinks of as “the Internet”, if the centralized services disappear, isn’t that the same as “turning off the Internet”? I wonder if there’s a threshold yet to be crossed where “shutting down the Internet” becomes a fad? Where people begin abandoning social media en masse? This idea actually makes me a bit hopeful!
dainiusse 5y ago
To be fair seems like a backoff, but the problem is - nobody cares. Millions of man-hours saved a day. On a serious note - that market would be filled in a month...
- mrits 5y ago
  Saving man-hours is a far worst concept than wasting time on social media.
- camdat 5y ago
  As other comments have said, Meta never said they would leave the market willingly.
paxys 5y ago
This was fake news since day 1. There was never any source which pointed back to Facebook implying any such thing. Just tech bloggers/clickbait journalists doing what they do best.
- Rebelgecko 5y ago
  Their form 10-k, in listing all the business risks, said something along the lines of "if it becomes illegal to operate in Europe we'll have to stop operating in Europe". Then the clickbait factories were off to the races.
- scotuswroteus 5y ago
  Reading Facebook's own reports? "“If a new transatlantic data transfer framework is not adopted and we are unable to continue to rely on SCCs (standard contractual clauses) or rely upon other alternative means of data transfers from Europe to the United States, we will likely be unable to offer a number of our most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram, in Europe."
  - gowld 5y ago
    That's not a threat, that's a disclosure of what the law says. Every multinational non-user-siloed company makes the same disclosure.
  - avalys 5y ago
    That's not a "threat". It's a legally-required warning in a regulatory filing for investors of a possible negative event which might occur.
    - colinmhayes 5y ago
      That doesn't mean it's not also a threat. It just means that if it is a threat they can always say "That's not a "threat". It's a legally-required warning in a regulatory filing for investors of a possible negative event which might occur." Facebook knew journalists would see this and may have wanted it to be reported on.
nixass 5y ago
I don't think that Facebook needs to address the fear in people from leaving Europe. If nothing else, they've definitely heard feedback that people wouldn't mind at all if they left. >But the simple reality is that Meta, like many other businesses, organisations and services, relies on data transfers between the EU and the US in order to operate our global services Yeah.. The reality is you don't really have to transfer anything out of EU in order to keep your service running. Liars
- justapassenger 5y ago
  > Yeah.. The reality is you don't really have to transfer anything out of EU in order to keep your service running. Liars Can you explain to me how would you allow communication between EU and USA users without transferring any data out of EU? Expect for putting all the datacenters in EU?
  - kelnos 5y ago
    I'm pretty sure when we talk about "transfers" here, we aren't talking about "user in US requests data from URL that is served from server in EU". We're talking about user-data from/about/on EU citizens that is stored on servers in the US (or transferred there from servers in the EU with the intent to keep it on servers in the US). The former is fine[0], but the latter is not. [0] Obviously if there is some web forum hosted in Germany that a bunch of Germans living in Germany post to, and I -- in the US -- visit the forum, that involves data leaving Germany and flowing to the US. There's nothing wrong with that.
    - justapassenger 5y ago
      Very simple example - I'm in EU, and I like and post a comment on a photo of Rihana. How do you do that on the backend, without transferring data or keeping all the data in EU? Even if you keep data for individual profile in corresponding country, any interaction with a content outside of EU is impossible without data transfer.
  - b112 5y ago
msavara 5y ago
That's a pity, we were looking forward to it.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
pokot0 5y ago
Meta does not want to understand. People are not happy that their data is Meta's business and that, as a result, Meta keeps socially engineering them to milk more of their time. People are not even mad about ads, they are mad at the waste of time and general sense that FB brings the worst out of you. They need to shift their business, changing the landscape (metaverse) will not change anything or trying to convince people that what they offer is great is a long term losing proposition, imh.
throwaway27727 5y ago
No one in my circles cares about Facebook leaving Europe. Until they realize that Facebook includes Instagram and WhatsApp and they do actually use those other services. Point being: to all the commenters saying no one cares, a lot more people care than you think.
- IgorPartola 5y ago
  Eh. If all three of those left the US I would care exactly not at all. There are better alternatives and if FB et al disappeared suddenly it would just create room for those services to take hold.
  - Macha 5y ago
    In the last 5 years, Whatsapp has basically replaced SMS in many EU countries. The equivalent in the US is probably the combined market share of FB Messenger, Whatsapp, iMessage and Signal.
    - IgorPartola 5y ago
      And if it went away it would be inconvenient for a couple of weeks as people move to Matrix :)
      - libraryatnight 5y ago
        Yeah, I don't think Facebook wants to let people see how quickly they'd adapt and overcome to any of their services going away.
        fmajid 5y ago
        There was a forerunner of that last year when there was a massive exodus to Signal when FB changed WhatsApp's privacy policy to force users to allow sharing of data with Facebook. If they shut down, even people who were too apathetic to switch would do so overnight. I hope Signal has a contingency plan for scaling up 10x ready...
Closi 5y ago
> Meta Is Absolutely Not Threatening to Leave Europe But then in the body of their post... > EU-US data transfers mechanisms poses a threat to our ability to serve European consumers and operate our business in Europe [and] we have absolutely no desire to withdraw from Europe, of course we don’t, But the simple reality is that Meta relies on data transfers between the EU and the US. I mean, that sounds like a threat to leave to me? If you can't operate your business in Europe? Talk about mixed messaging and double-speak!
- skybrian 5y ago
  If you're going to interpret every risk disclosed to investors as a threat, that means companies can't be honest about the risks facing them without making threats. Since public companies get sued for not disclosing risks to investors, there is no winning this.
- ambrozk 5y ago
  What are you talking about? It's completely clear to someone who isn't coming at this issue with an axe to grind. Meta's ability to serve European customers is under threat. In other words, the regulatory framework is making it hard for them to do their jobs. Meta is not threatening to leave. They couldn't be clearer.
  - Closi 5y ago
    They are saying "We aren't threatening to leave, but we will be forced to leave". If it is a threat or not is a matter of perspective and opinion, but they are implying that they will leave if legislation isn't revoked.
- mminer237 5y ago
  They're not threatening to leave Europe. They're warning their investors that the EU seems to be outlawing any form of international social media.
  - _fizz_buzz_ 5y ago
tobr 5y ago
> To help personalize content, tailor and measure ads, and provide a safer experience, we use cookies. By clicking or navigating the site, you agree to allow our collection of information on and off Facebook through cookies. Learn more, including about available controls: Cookies Policy How am I supposed to read the cookies policy without clicking or navigating?
bee_rider 5y ago
> International data transfers underpin the global economy and support many of the services that are fundamental to our daily lives. For many years, the legal framework supporting the transfer of data across the Atlantic has faced severe disruption. Huh, if I were a Facebook investor I'd be pretty disappointed to hear that they've known this was an area of active disruption for years but haven't managed to rework their business model to avoid it.
- mminer237 5y ago
  Their whole function is letting people send data to other people. The EU saying that it's illegal to send data to a US company is a pretty unsolvable problem for them.
pl0x 5y ago
Meta should leave Europe. The EU has been anti tech but pro China, why does these rules only apply to American companies?
pictur 5y ago
serious question, why isn't facebook still dying? please god, I think we have the right to see this in 2022.
signa11 5y ago
is it possible that if they go through with it, it might open up the entire continent to an alternate / competitor, which can then threaten them globally ? thinking a bit more, it seems that there might be a fine acceptable line of action between the scylla of share everything (which mean no privacy) and charybdis of share nothing (which means no internet), and it might (unfortunately !) be upto the politicians to draw it...
dsr_ 5y ago
Headline: We are not threatening to blah. First paragraph: We don't want to blah. Second paragraph: But if we don't get what we want, we will have to consider blah. I guess it's time for an update to Betteridge's Law: The more emphatically a press-release headline denies something, the more likely it is to be true.
croes 5y ago
The problem isn't EU law but US law. The EU doesn't care if Meta gets the data of its users but that there is no possibility to prevent that the intelligence services get them too. That killed Safe Harbour. So blame Patriot Act and Cloud Act not GDPR.
- yohannparis 5y ago
  Took me too long to find this opinion. I completely agree, they have the money and expertise to lobby good ol' congress. So why they do not!?
croes 5y ago
Meta's user base shrank and share price fell, what would happen if all EU users were gone?
spoonjim 5y ago
They should have written this a week ago.
npx13 5y ago
>but not confined by national borders. Store everyone's data in Europe then and do your data transfers in the other direction.
ProAm 5y ago
"We are not leaving because our stock just dropped by an effective 200B and we need you now more than you need us"
- fmajid 5y ago
  That's due to Apple, not the EU.
  - philistine 5y ago
    Whoever is the cause of this drop in value (and it's not Apple), they're not going to start playing hardball with their second market now. In six months, the stock might have recovered (I sure don't think so, though) and we'll see then.
supreme_berry 5y ago
And you ask why Britain left EU. Some old jerks think they represent the whole EU population and can easily forbid something for everyone.
- rusk 5y ago
  Is that you Nigel?
- timeon 5y ago
  Meanwhile Brits needs to confirm your age with your phone operator before accessing certain pages (even if it is just switch). And how is it going with proposal to ban encryption in UK?
mkl95 5y ago
I have no interest in any of Meta's products or services. They could have left Europe months ago without me or my family / friends noticing.
uncomputation 5y ago
Why does this sound like a series of Tweets? I cannot believe an SVP wrote this and thought it was a professional enough tone to publish. It reflects doubly bad on Meta because not only do Europe’s (or Apple’s or Google’s or whatever enemy du jour) privacy laws limit their ability to execute (as seen from their latest quarterly results), but they don’t even have the maturity to address the situation without more whining about how user privacy means they can’t harvest their data to make billions of dollars. This sort of tone might fly for a start-up but not one of the largest companies in the world. Doubly true since Meta just identified a huge downside in their prospects and this does nothing to assuage investors. Rather than say “we are looking for ways to continue to provide our services while remaining compliant with privacy laws” and a bunch of marketing speak about it, they throw in the towel and say “boo hoo, if Europe wants privacy, we just can’t have Facebook there.”
sprite 5y ago
Can someone please explain exactly what data is the issue here? Is Facebook being targeted just because of their scale or is anyone who runs an online service expected to keep any data from their European users on EU servers? Is there a TLDR of the laws applying to transatlantic data transfers anywhere?
- timeon 5y ago
  Here is one of those laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act
radicaldreamer 5y ago
People are definitely tired of hearing or caring about Meta.
skor 5y ago
when there is a “but” in a sentence, the part before it automatically gets assigned as false.
jafitc 5y ago
now count the upvotes versus the "original" posts about this
ksec 5y ago
>"If a new transatlantic data transfer framework is not adopted and we are unable to continue to rely on SCCs (standard contractual clauses) or rely upon other alternative means of data transfers from Europe to the United States, we will likely be unable to offer a number of our most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram, in Europe." Compared this to Apple. >Apple's position is it should indeed be able to reflect on the terms and decide whether commercially it is right to accept them or to leave the UK market. There may be terms that are set by the court which are just commercially unacceptable. I will let HN decide which one of them is really a threat. While Apple haven't said anything similar to the Dutch, I think they just gave them the middle finger.
missjellyfish 5y ago
What many people in this thread get wrong is that the problem is not and never has been posts, photos or messages shared with the public or a person that can reasonably be expected to be in the US. This data is mad explicitly public, and by posting, the user grants consent to distribute - worldwide. The problem is, however, with tracking data facebook runs it’s advertisements on. This data is compiled from a number of things, but must be orderly protected. That is - in my opinion - only possible in a federated service model. Anything that is explicitly shared and needs to be delivered in the US (or anywhere, for that matter) still will be. The GDPR and the concerns over the SCC only concern the ad path. Federating facebook will likely hurt their ad business, and, to make it worse, they still need to ensure the US has no jurisdiction (even if they would like to have it). This seems only possible by making the federated company 100% independent, which brings its own problems. The reality is that Facebook (and meta, for that matter) very well could do that. But they probably won’t, because it would hurt their bottom line.
bsedlm 5y ago
I am as certain as one can be without any capacity to prove it, that fb and meta and Mr. Zuck.. are subject of some sort of attack for the past 2 years (the intensity/frequency of critical opinion pieces went up within the last 2 years). It's entertaining albeit unfruitful to wonder who could be behind. FB's reputation has been tarnished specially in the USA (which hints that it's an interest originating in the USA). I'm not saying all criticisms are without merit, I'm saying that's very interesting that so many 'different' outlets have begun to directly criticize Facebook. I like stratechery's opinion that a lot of FB's problems (legitimate concerns under scrutiny) aren't really FB's but the Internet's (given that FB is a large portion of the internet, and for certain users it's really most of the internet). tl;dr; it sure seems like a lot of FUD about facebook these days.
- lm28469 5y ago
  > It's entertaining albeit unfruitful to wonder who could be behind. I'm not associated with anyone and I'll shit on fb/zuck as long as I can, I doubt I'm the only one. They're so widely criticised because they're the epitome of everything one can possibly hate about modern tech companies.
  - jdp23 5y ago
    Yeah really. In today's polarized political climate, criticizing Facebook is one of the very few things most people agree on! OK, enough unity, now let's get back to partisan mud-slinging :)
  - bsedlm 5y ago
    disagree, google is not any better. (IMO google is the worst now, same as microsoft was once upont a time) Also Amazon is worse than FB towards open or free software
    - mbesto 5y ago
      Google has immediate, easily discernible and credible utility to the average person. If I want to find "best recipes for brownies" Google helps me there regardless. I have clear intent to find the best recipes for making brownies. On Facebook my 82 year old grandma might post an article like "BEST BROWNIE RECIPES FOR SOUTH FLORIDA GRANDMAS" that might hit my feed. Very different.
senko 5y ago
Meanwhile, CIA collecting bulk data without oversight: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/02/cia-collecting-bulk-data-on-americans-without-oversight-senators-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/02/cia-collecting-b... Between this, CLOUD act and EARNIT, why would anyone consider any privacy statement from any US company credible?
- tedivm 5y ago
  That's exactly why the EU is doing this. The various EU courts all have issue with the fact that the US Government can force US Companies to share data with US Intelligence companies even if that data resides outside of the US. This is why simply storing the data in the EU isn't enough. Our government allows intelligence agencies to spy on everyone, and as a result foreign countries do not trust us. As long as other countries have to worry about US companies sharing data under gag orders those countries will not trust our companies with their data. Nor should they.
  - amai 5y ago
    US intelligence agencies are increasingly hurting US business interests. I’m really wondering why big business in US allows this to happen. I was always under the impression, that money trumps everything in the US. But times are changing. The US seems to change from pure capitalism into a surveillance state.
  - fmajid 5y ago
    The European Commission, the executive branch of the EU, was trying not to rock the boat, possibly fearful of starting a trade war with the US. It's the European judiciary, egged on by lawsuits filed by activists like Max Schrems that has been pushing forwards, with the legendary nimbleness of any judicial process.
skinkestek 5y ago
The only thing I can see is: bad URL NSURLErrorDomain
ringe 5y ago
Too bad.
shafyy 5y ago
Such as PR fluff post by Meta, and it doesn't even mention one of the main problems EU has with US privacy laws: the CLOUD act.
demadog 5y ago
Love how many people refer to them as Facebook, unlike Twitter and the news where they even refer to past activities as coming from Meta which sounds incongruent. Like “in 2016, Meta did xyz…”
ferdowsi 5y ago
Seems pretty clear that Facebook is putting this statement out because they're sweating their big stock slide and looking to staunch the bleeding whereever possible. If they were in a stronger position they would be sticking to attempting to strong-arm the EU.
xet7 5y ago
If there is no Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, what will replace it? Already it seems using Google Analytics is illegal in some countries at EU. What about Microsoft Teams, Windows 11, etc? How can I prevent those sending any telemetry data etc to outside of EU? Will Microsoft Teams, Windows 11 etc be illegal too?
- miohtama 5y ago
  Microsoft has setup an independent business unit and a data center in Germany. From all cloud companies, Microsoft is likely the best prepared for the US untethering, because of their B2B background. https://news.microsoft.com/europe/2020/09/30/our-commitment-to-delivering-the-microsoft-cloud-in-germany/ https://news.microsoft.com/europe/2020/09/30/our-commitment-...
fmajid 5y ago
The headline is accurate. Even a company as tin-eared as Meta knows their reputation is deep down in the septic tank, and the threat would be as credible as the black sheriff in Mel Brook's "Blazing Saddles" pointing his gun at his own forehead and saying "Or the N*** gets it's"
nokya 5y ago
"we did not threaten to leave Europe" Yup, you did. Annual report, page 9, and it backfired. Everybody knows you won't leave but that's what you suggested point blank. You put this there to put pressure on Europe to surrender its citizens data to the US unconditionally. Own it.

140 points by gabea 5y ago

> Much like 70 other EU and US companies, we are identifying a business risk resulting from uncertainty around international data transfers. Funny how they try to spin it like there's some "uncertainty", the regulations are very clear, they just need to apply them.

api 5y ago

Too bad for the Europeans then... a lot of them were looking forward to that.

fnord77 5y ago

that bluff failed spectacularly. How out of touch does management have to be to not realize FB needs europe a lot more than europe needs facebook? the reaction in my circles has been almost universally "don't let the door hit your ass on the way out"

peakaboo 5y ago

What a shame. Would love if they left.

irrational 5y ago
Same everywhere. The world would be so much better without Facebook, Twitter, Instagram, WeChat, LinkedIn, etc.
- hn_version_0023 5y ago
  Agreed. With so many centralized services making up what the average person thinks of as “the Internet”, if the centralized services disappear, isn’t that the same as “turning off the Internet”? I wonder if there’s a threshold yet to be crossed where “shutting down the Internet” becomes a fad? Where people begin abandoning social media en masse? This idea actually makes me a bit hopeful!

dainiusse 5y ago

To be fair seems like a backoff, but the problem is - nobody cares. Millions of man-hours saved a day. On a serious note - that market would be filled in a month...

mrits 5y ago
Saving man-hours is a far worst concept than wasting time on social media.
camdat 5y ago
As other comments have said, Meta never said they would leave the market willingly.

paxys 5y ago

This was fake news since day 1. There was never any source which pointed back to Facebook implying any such thing. Just tech bloggers/clickbait journalists doing what they do best.

Rebelgecko 5y ago
Their form 10-k, in listing all the business risks, said something along the lines of "if it becomes illegal to operate in Europe we'll have to stop operating in Europe". Then the clickbait factories were off to the races.
scotuswroteus 5y ago
Reading Facebook's own reports? "“If a new transatlantic data transfer framework is not adopted and we are unable to continue to rely on SCCs (standard contractual clauses) or rely upon other alternative means of data transfers from Europe to the United States, we will likely be unable to offer a number of our most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram, in Europe."
- gowld 5y ago
  That's not a threat, that's a disclosure of what the law says. Every multinational non-user-siloed company makes the same disclosure.
- avalys 5y ago
  That's not a "threat". It's a legally-required warning in a regulatory filing for investors of a possible negative event which might occur.
  - colinmhayes 5y ago
    That doesn't mean it's not also a threat. It just means that if it is a threat they can always say "That's not a "threat". It's a legally-required warning in a regulatory filing for investors of a possible negative event which might occur." Facebook knew journalists would see this and may have wanted it to be reported on.

nixass 5y ago

I don't think that Facebook needs to address the fear in people from leaving Europe. If nothing else, they've definitely heard feedback that people wouldn't mind at all if they left. >But the simple reality is that Meta, like many other businesses, organisations and services, relies on data transfers between the EU and the US in order to operate our global services Yeah.. The reality is you don't really have to transfer anything out of EU in order to keep your service running. Liars

justapassenger 5y ago
> Yeah.. The reality is you don't really have to transfer anything out of EU in order to keep your service running. Liars Can you explain to me how would you allow communication between EU and USA users without transferring any data out of EU? Expect for putting all the datacenters in EU?
- kelnos 5y ago
  I'm pretty sure when we talk about "transfers" here, we aren't talking about "user in US requests data from URL that is served from server in EU". We're talking about user-data from/about/on EU citizens that is stored on servers in the US (or transferred there from servers in the EU with the intent to keep it on servers in the US). The former is fine[0], but the latter is not. [0] Obviously if there is some web forum hosted in Germany that a bunch of Germans living in Germany post to, and I -- in the US -- visit the forum, that involves data leaving Germany and flowing to the US. There's nothing wrong with that.
  - justapassenger 5y ago
    Very simple example - I'm in EU, and I like and post a comment on a photo of Rihana. How do you do that on the backend, without transferring data or keeping all the data in EU? Even if you keep data for individual profile in corresponding country, any interaction with a content outside of EU is impossible without data transfer.
- b112 5y ago

msavara 5y ago

That's a pity, we were looking forward to it.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

pokot0 5y ago

Meta does not want to understand. People are not happy that their data is Meta's business and that, as a result, Meta keeps socially engineering them to milk more of their time. People are not even mad about ads, they are mad at the waste of time and general sense that FB brings the worst out of you. They need to shift their business, changing the landscape (metaverse) will not change anything or trying to convince people that what they offer is great is a long term losing proposition, imh.

throwaway27727 5y ago

No one in my circles cares about Facebook leaving Europe. Until they realize that Facebook includes Instagram and WhatsApp and they do actually use those other services. Point being: to all the commenters saying no one cares, a lot more people care than you think.

IgorPartola 5y ago
Eh. If all three of those left the US I would care exactly not at all. There are better alternatives and if FB et al disappeared suddenly it would just create room for those services to take hold.
- Macha 5y ago
  In the last 5 years, Whatsapp has basically replaced SMS in many EU countries. The equivalent in the US is probably the combined market share of FB Messenger, Whatsapp, iMessage and Signal.
  - IgorPartola 5y ago
    And if it went away it would be inconvenient for a couple of weeks as people move to Matrix :)
    - libraryatnight 5y ago
      Yeah, I don't think Facebook wants to let people see how quickly they'd adapt and overcome to any of their services going away.
      - fmajid 5y ago
        There was a forerunner of that last year when there was a massive exodus to Signal when FB changed WhatsApp's privacy policy to force users to allow sharing of data with Facebook. If they shut down, even people who were too apathetic to switch would do so overnight. I hope Signal has a contingency plan for scaling up 10x ready...

Closi 5y ago

> Meta Is Absolutely Not Threatening to Leave Europe But then in the body of their post... > EU-US data transfers mechanisms poses a threat to our ability to serve European consumers and operate our business in Europe [and] we have absolutely no desire to withdraw from Europe, of course we don’t, But the simple reality is that Meta relies on data transfers between the EU and the US. I mean, that sounds like a threat to leave to me? If you can't operate your business in Europe? Talk about mixed messaging and double-speak!

skybrian 5y ago
If you're going to interpret every risk disclosed to investors as a threat, that means companies can't be honest about the risks facing them without making threats. Since public companies get sued for not disclosing risks to investors, there is no winning this.
ambrozk 5y ago
What are you talking about? It's completely clear to someone who isn't coming at this issue with an axe to grind. Meta's ability to serve European customers is under threat. In other words, the regulatory framework is making it hard for them to do their jobs. Meta is not threatening to leave. They couldn't be clearer.
- Closi 5y ago
  They are saying "We aren't threatening to leave, but we will be forced to leave". If it is a threat or not is a matter of perspective and opinion, but they are implying that they will leave if legislation isn't revoked.
mminer237 5y ago
They're not threatening to leave Europe. They're warning their investors that the EU seems to be outlawing any form of international social media.
- _fizz_buzz_ 5y ago

tobr 5y ago

> To help personalize content, tailor and measure ads, and provide a safer experience, we use cookies. By clicking or navigating the site, you agree to allow our collection of information on and off Facebook through cookies. Learn more, including about available controls: Cookies Policy How am I supposed to read the cookies policy without clicking or navigating?

bee_rider 5y ago

> International data transfers underpin the global economy and support many of the services that are fundamental to our daily lives. For many years, the legal framework supporting the transfer of data across the Atlantic has faced severe disruption. Huh, if I were a Facebook investor I'd be pretty disappointed to hear that they've known this was an area of active disruption for years but haven't managed to rework their business model to avoid it.

mminer237 5y ago
Their whole function is letting people send data to other people. The EU saying that it's illegal to send data to a US company is a pretty unsolvable problem for them.

pl0x 5y ago

Meta should leave Europe. The EU has been anti tech but pro China, why does these rules only apply to American companies?

pictur 5y ago

serious question, why isn't facebook still dying? please god, I think we have the right to see this in 2022.

signa11 5y ago

is it possible that if they go through with it, it might open up the entire continent to an alternate / competitor, which can then threaten them globally ? thinking a bit more, it seems that there might be a fine acceptable line of action between the scylla of share everything (which mean no privacy) and charybdis of share nothing (which means no internet), and it might (unfortunately !) be upto the politicians to draw it...

dsr_ 5y ago

Headline: We are not threatening to blah. First paragraph: We don't want to blah. Second paragraph: But if we don't get what we want, we will have to consider blah. I guess it's time for an update to Betteridge's Law: The more emphatically a press-release headline denies something, the more likely it is to be true.

croes 5y ago

The problem isn't EU law but US law. The EU doesn't care if Meta gets the data of its users but that there is no possibility to prevent that the intelligence services get them too. That killed Safe Harbour. So blame Patriot Act and Cloud Act not GDPR.

yohannparis 5y ago
Took me too long to find this opinion. I completely agree, they have the money and expertise to lobby good ol' congress. So why they do not!?

croes 5y ago

Meta's user base shrank and share price fell, what would happen if all EU users were gone?

spoonjim 5y ago

They should have written this a week ago.

npx13 5y ago

>but not confined by national borders. Store everyone's data in Europe then and do your data transfers in the other direction.

ProAm 5y ago

"We are not leaving because our stock just dropped by an effective 200B and we need you now more than you need us"

fmajid 5y ago
That's due to Apple, not the EU.
- philistine 5y ago
  Whoever is the cause of this drop in value (and it's not Apple), they're not going to start playing hardball with their second market now. In six months, the stock might have recovered (I sure don't think so, though) and we'll see then.

supreme_berry 5y ago

And you ask why Britain left EU. Some old jerks think they represent the whole EU population and can easily forbid something for everyone.

rusk 5y ago
Is that you Nigel?
timeon 5y ago
Meanwhile Brits needs to confirm your age with your phone operator before accessing certain pages (even if it is just switch). And how is it going with proposal to ban encryption in UK?

mkl95 5y ago

I have no interest in any of Meta's products or services. They could have left Europe months ago without me or my family / friends noticing.

uncomputation 5y ago

Why does this sound like a series of Tweets? I cannot believe an SVP wrote this and thought it was a professional enough tone to publish. It reflects doubly bad on Meta because not only do Europe’s (or Apple’s or Google’s or whatever enemy du jour) privacy laws limit their ability to execute (as seen from their latest quarterly results), but they don’t even have the maturity to address the situation without more whining about how user privacy means they can’t harvest their data to make billions of dollars. This sort of tone might fly for a start-up but not one of the largest companies in the world. Doubly true since Meta just identified a huge downside in their prospects and this does nothing to assuage investors. Rather than say “we are looking for ways to continue to provide our services while remaining compliant with privacy laws” and a bunch of marketing speak about it, they throw in the towel and say “boo hoo, if Europe wants privacy, we just can’t have Facebook there.”

sprite 5y ago

Can someone please explain exactly what data is the issue here? Is Facebook being targeted just because of their scale or is anyone who runs an online service expected to keep any data from their European users on EU servers? Is there a TLDR of the laws applying to transatlantic data transfers anywhere?

timeon 5y ago
Here is one of those laws: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CLOUD_Act

radicaldreamer 5y ago

People are definitely tired of hearing or caring about Meta.

skor 5y ago

when there is a “but” in a sentence, the part before it automatically gets assigned as false.

jafitc 5y ago

now count the upvotes versus the "original" posts about this

ksec 5y ago

>"If a new transatlantic data transfer framework is not adopted and we are unable to continue to rely on SCCs (standard contractual clauses) or rely upon other alternative means of data transfers from Europe to the United States, we will likely be unable to offer a number of our most significant products and services, including Facebook and Instagram, in Europe." Compared this to Apple. >Apple's position is it should indeed be able to reflect on the terms and decide whether commercially it is right to accept them or to leave the UK market. There may be terms that are set by the court which are just commercially unacceptable. I will let HN decide which one of them is really a threat. While Apple haven't said anything similar to the Dutch, I think they just gave them the middle finger.

missjellyfish 5y ago

What many people in this thread get wrong is that the problem is not and never has been posts, photos or messages shared with the public or a person that can reasonably be expected to be in the US. This data is mad explicitly public, and by posting, the user grants consent to distribute - worldwide. The problem is, however, with tracking data facebook runs it’s advertisements on. This data is compiled from a number of things, but must be orderly protected. That is - in my opinion - only possible in a federated service model. Anything that is explicitly shared and needs to be delivered in the US (or anywhere, for that matter) still will be. The GDPR and the concerns over the SCC only concern the ad path. Federating facebook will likely hurt their ad business, and, to make it worse, they still need to ensure the US has no jurisdiction (even if they would like to have it). This seems only possible by making the federated company 100% independent, which brings its own problems. The reality is that Facebook (and meta, for that matter) very well could do that. But they probably won’t, because it would hurt their bottom line.

bsedlm 5y ago

I am as certain as one can be without any capacity to prove it, that fb and meta and Mr. Zuck.. are subject of some sort of attack for the past 2 years (the intensity/frequency of critical opinion pieces went up within the last 2 years). It's entertaining albeit unfruitful to wonder who could be behind. FB's reputation has been tarnished specially in the USA (which hints that it's an interest originating in the USA). I'm not saying all criticisms are without merit, I'm saying that's very interesting that so many 'different' outlets have begun to directly criticize Facebook. I like stratechery's opinion that a lot of FB's problems (legitimate concerns under scrutiny) aren't really FB's but the Internet's (given that FB is a large portion of the internet, and for certain users it's really most of the internet). tl;dr; it sure seems like a lot of FUD about facebook these days.

lm28469 5y ago
> It's entertaining albeit unfruitful to wonder who could be behind. I'm not associated with anyone and I'll shit on fb/zuck as long as I can, I doubt I'm the only one. They're so widely criticised because they're the epitome of everything one can possibly hate about modern tech companies.
- jdp23 5y ago
  Yeah really. In today's polarized political climate, criticizing Facebook is one of the very few things most people agree on! OK, enough unity, now let's get back to partisan mud-slinging :)
- bsedlm 5y ago
  disagree, google is not any better. (IMO google is the worst now, same as microsoft was once upont a time) Also Amazon is worse than FB towards open or free software
  - mbesto 5y ago
    Google has immediate, easily discernible and credible utility to the average person. If I want to find "best recipes for brownies" Google helps me there regardless. I have clear intent to find the best recipes for making brownies. On Facebook my 82 year old grandma might post an article like "BEST BROWNIE RECIPES FOR SOUTH FLORIDA GRANDMAS" that might hit my feed. Very different.

senko 5y ago

Meanwhile, CIA collecting bulk data without oversight: https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/02/cia-collecting-bulk-data-on-americans-without-oversight-senators-say/ https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2022/02/cia-collecting-b... Between this, CLOUD act and EARNIT, why would anyone consider any privacy statement from any US company credible?

tedivm 5y ago
That's exactly why the EU is doing this. The various EU courts all have issue with the fact that the US Government can force US Companies to share data with US Intelligence companies even if that data resides outside of the US. This is why simply storing the data in the EU isn't enough. Our government allows intelligence agencies to spy on everyone, and as a result foreign countries do not trust us. As long as other countries have to worry about US companies sharing data under gag orders those countries will not trust our companies with their data. Nor should they.
- amai 5y ago
  US intelligence agencies are increasingly hurting US business interests. I’m really wondering why big business in US allows this to happen. I was always under the impression, that money trumps everything in the US. But times are changing. The US seems to change from pure capitalism into a surveillance state.
- fmajid 5y ago
  The European Commission, the executive branch of the EU, was trying not to rock the boat, possibly fearful of starting a trade war with the US. It's the European judiciary, egged on by lawsuits filed by activists like Max Schrems that has been pushing forwards, with the legendary nimbleness of any judicial process.

skinkestek 5y ago

The only thing I can see is: bad URL NSURLErrorDomain

ringe 5y ago

Too bad.

shafyy 5y ago

Such as PR fluff post by Meta, and it doesn't even mention one of the main problems EU has with US privacy laws: the CLOUD act.

demadog 5y ago

Love how many people refer to them as Facebook, unlike Twitter and the news where they even refer to past activities as coming from Meta which sounds incongruent. Like “in 2016, Meta did xyz…”

ferdowsi 5y ago

Seems pretty clear that Facebook is putting this statement out because they're sweating their big stock slide and looking to staunch the bleeding whereever possible. If they were in a stronger position they would be sticking to attempting to strong-arm the EU.

xet7 5y ago

If there is no Facebook, WhatsApp, Instagram, what will replace it? Already it seems using Google Analytics is illegal in some countries at EU. What about Microsoft Teams, Windows 11, etc? How can I prevent those sending any telemetry data etc to outside of EU? Will Microsoft Teams, Windows 11 etc be illegal too?

miohtama 5y ago
Microsoft has setup an independent business unit and a data center in Germany. From all cloud companies, Microsoft is likely the best prepared for the US untethering, because of their B2B background. https://news.microsoft.com/europe/2020/09/30/our-commitment-to-delivering-the-microsoft-cloud-in-germany/ https://news.microsoft.com/europe/2020/09/30/our-commitment-...

fmajid 5y ago

The headline is accurate. Even a company as tin-eared as Meta knows their reputation is deep down in the septic tank, and the threat would be as credible as the black sheriff in Mel Brook's "Blazing Saddles" pointing his gun at his own forehead and saying "Or the N*** gets it's"

nokya 5y ago

"we did not threaten to leave Europe" Yup, you did. Annual report, page 9, and it backfired. Everybody knows you won't leave but that's what you suggested point blank. You put this there to put pressure on Europe to surrender its citizens data to the US unconditionally. Own it.