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New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation

305 points by throw0101a 5y ago

prideout 5y ago
> artificial light is increasing globally by at least 2% every year Um this is scary, isn't it? I want cities across the world to start switching over to low pressure sodium lamps. Yellow light for the win!
- khuey 5y ago
  Isn't low pressure sodium vapor a dead technology?
  - imoverclocked 5y ago
    It's still used ... so, no?
    - kunai 5y ago
      High pressure sodium is very common and still available. Low pressure sodium is extinct. The last LPS lamp was made in 2018 I believe. It's a shame, because LPS was the gold standard for astronomy as the hyperspecific emission spectrum made it extremely easy to filter out for astrophotographers and telescope users
      - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
        it's totally possible to make leds with similar properties, but it's generally but done because narrow spectrum lighting messes with color perception
- throw0101a 5y ago
  Dark Sky approved products: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/ https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus...
- blue1 5y ago
  I also like sodium lighting, especially the LP variety (despite the fact that all the mystic about orange light helping sleep has been basically debunked), but it is still light. We should decrease light pollution, not simply change its color. Anyway, sodium lamps are being replaced by white LEDs.
  - inciampati 5y ago
    Blue light doesn't suppress melatonin production? Got a reference for that? This was afaik a reproducible result.
    - openknot 5y ago
      A Time article [0] reports on this paper [1] that reaches the same conclusion as the user's comment. However, it's a mice study, which is an important limitation because rodents are nocturnal, according to the Time reporter. Meanwhile, Harvard Health [2] and WebMD [3] also both continue to report that blue light suppresses melatonin production for humans. From Time: "Animal studies should always be taken with a grain of salt, as they often do not translate directly to human behavior. And there are additional caveats to this particular paper, says Dr. Cathy Goldstein, a sleep specialist at Michigan Medicine. The researchers looked specifically at cones in the animals’ eyes, which detect color, instead of melanopsin, which senses light and is central to the issue of melatonin secretion. "They also kept light levels dim, regardless of color, which may not reflect the bright lights of electronics. "And finally, though mice are frequently used in sleep research, Goldstein notes that since the rodents are nocturnal, they may respond differently to light than humans do. Taken together, Goldstein says these conditions mean the study’s results apply only to a very narrow set of circumstances and metrics. “For this to get extrapolated to saying ‘blue light at night isn’t bad for you’ is a little bit of an extension,” Goldstein says." [0] https://time.com/5752454/blue-light-sleep/ https://time.com/5752454/blue-light-sleep/ [1] https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)31368-5 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)... [2] https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... [3] https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-blue-light https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-blue-light
- gtirloni 5y ago
  Yellow light is horrible though. It seems to make everything really dark in my neighborhood. Most parts of the city are switching to white LED lights here and they feel much better.
  - gsruff 5y ago
    My experience has been exactly the opposite. My neighborhood went from yellow, sodium lighting to stark white LEDs a few years ago. The result, to my eyes, is that the contrast between what is lit by the street lights and surrounding dark areas is much higher. Perhaps what is needed is better diffusion onto the ground.
    - novok 5y ago
      Or 2000K wide spectrum LED lamps vs doing stupid 6000K-5000K LED lamps at night and messing with human sleep cycles even more :/ Or causing nausea with the narrow spectrum yellow sodium lamps.
      - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
        the problem with 2000k lights is that human night vision is much more sensitive to bluer light. you can use about half as much light while appearing as bright by moving to 3500k
  - rmbyrro 5y ago
    That's true. Inside my home I prefer yellow light, but on the streets white light does work a lot better. I know it's psychological, but white light also gives me a better sense of security walking at night on the street.
    - micromacrofoot 5y ago
      There are some weird claims correlated with bluer light... that in public spaces they reduce crime or suicide rates. There's not a lot of actual data, but I've seen a lot of articles about it pop up... maybe it's just everyone's predilection towards easy fixes for complicated problems (like the too-rosy broken windows theory claims) https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/projects/crime-lights-study https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/projects/crime-lights-study
- initplus 5y ago
  Modern LED street lighting is more directional than traditional sodium lamps, and results in less overall light pollution.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - el_nahual 5y ago
    Unfortunately it's also: 1. Much blue-er and so WAY worse for people's circadian rhythms 2. Much "sharper" in it's shadows, so you go from blindingly bright to pitch black without your eyes having a chance to adapt, making it unsafer, and making the shadows "darker" 3. Much harder to filter out for astronomers It's only advantage is really that it's a lot more energy efficient, but it seems like white LEDs are a net decrease to human welfare as opposed to yellow sodium lamps. Anecdotally, I used to live in front of a park that had yellow lamps and it was never an issue at night, but when they switched to white LEDs my entire house was illuminated with very blue, daylike-like light, really messing up my sleep.
    - throw0101a 5y ago
      > 1. Much blue-er and so WAY worse for people's circadian rhythms There is always garbage out there, regardless of product category. For streetlights you can get good products. Acuity's Autobahn Series ATB0: > White Light: Correlated color temperature - 4000K, or optional 2700K, 3000K or 5000K, all 70 CRI * https://img.acuitybrands.com/public-assets/catalog/122046/atb0_.pdf?abl_version=01%2f19%2f2022+05:11:15&DOC_Type=SPEC_SHEET https://img.acuitybrands.com/public-assets/catalog/122046/at... * https://americanelectriclighting.acuitybrands.com/products/detail/122046/american-electric-lighting/autobahn-atb0/autobahn-led-cobra-head https://americanelectriclighting.acuitybrands.com/products/d... * Via: https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/#!/Roadway/c/12536252 https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus... > 2. Much "sharper" in it's shadows, so you go from blindingly bright to pitch black without your eyes having a chance to adapt, making it unsafer, and making the shadows "darker" Lighting and crime (prevention) is debatable: * https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-and-safety/ https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-and-s... Further, glare can blind people so as to not being able to see in darker areas: * https://cescos.fau.edu/observatory/lightpol-security.html#GlarebombsNoSec https://cescos.fau.edu/observatory/lightpol-security.html#Gl... > 3. Much harder to filter out for astronomers IMHO we can start worrying about this after we actually reduce light pollution. If we're at the point that astronomers can actually do useful work around large urban centres then let's start worrying about spectrum. As it stands they probably can't do much of anything now.
- xupybd 5y ago
  Maybe something in the temperature you want but more efficient than sodium lamps?
taffronaut 5y ago
La Palma in the Canary Islands passed a law in 1988 "to protect the quality of the night sky for the purpose of astrophysical observation" [1]. This seemed primarily for the benefit of large international optical observatories on the island. Not sure how they're that's faring after the recent volcanic eruption, but the law seemed quite strictly enforced when I visited a few years ago - streetlightling intensity was low and there were very few (if any) floodlit buildings. [1] https://www.starsislandlapalma.es/en/the-island/the-sky-starlight-reserve/ https://www.starsislandlapalma.es/en/the-island/the-sky-star...
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Tucson Arizona is well known for having a strong night sky protection law. It sure makes the street lights in that city very different.
  - piptastic 5y ago
    Kyba and colleagues found that streetlights accounted for just 13 percent of the city’s total light visible after midnight. That number would jump to 18 percent if the city did not dim the lights. This means most of the light is coming from other types of artificial lighting. https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/148259/experimenting-with-tucson-night-lights https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/148259/experimentin...
    - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
      Yes. External house lighting, especially in higher-than-average-crime Arizona, is probably going to keep the numbers up. Also headlights from cars, though there shouldn't be much of that past midnight.
      - labster 5y ago
        Do external lights prevent or reduce crime? If so, by how much?
manicdee 5y ago
In Australia we have a Dark Sky park at the Warrumbungles where the Siding Springs Observatory lives. IIRC we also have some of the radio-quietest parts of the Earth where the SKA is being developed. I love the idea of making the whole country a Dark Sky park.
- lenova 5y ago
  Agreed! I had the joy of visiting the Aoraki dark sky reserve in New Zealand a few years back. The night sky was surreal: I have never seen the the galaxy so clear and bright before. Visiting a Dark Sky park was one of the highlights of my life, and I'm jealous of New Zealand expanding the concept.
  - Teknoman117 5y ago
    I should probably take a vacation there at some point, once the pandemic ends. I miss traveling. I spent nearly two months outside of the US in 2019 (Japan and Germany) and it was awesome.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      Having visited a ton of countries I have to say new Zealand is the most beautiful and diverse country in terms of scenery I have visited. Really good choice. Too bad it's so far away from Europe
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
sparker72678 5y ago
I wish them all the best. There's nothing like a clear dark sky. Meanwhile, my neighbors are all doing their best to recreate daylight brightness all through the night with flood lights in their driveways, begging for ever brighter street lights, etc. I feel like more than half the population would truly end nighttime if given the opportunity.
- gs17 5y ago
  >begging for ever brighter street lights And near me that seemed to mean they also need to be cool white LEDs (which, being more efficient than what they replaced, will be run brighter) tilted slightly upward so they shine both into the sky and second story bedrooms.
  - dashundchen 5y ago
    Agreed. I've seen plenty of street lights that have diffuse, warm/yellow LEDs and a good downward pattern. But my city keeps insisting on installing the blinding cool LEDs that cast everywhere! I don't get who thinks these look good, except that some people associate the cool temperature = modern. Then again, when I walk around at night, I see a lot of houses and apartments lit up with wildly different bulb temperatures, or cool color temperatures in their living rooms. It would drive me crazy but it's possible some people don't notice these things.
    - stordoff 5y ago
      > cool color temperatures in their living rooms. It would drive me crazy but it's possible some people don't notice these things That's a deliberate choice for me. I have colour temperature adjustable lighting, and prefer the cooler temperatures (~6500k), particularly when reading.
    - kelnos 5y ago
      I moved into my current home about 2 years ago, and it's been a slow process to replace cooler lighting with warmer lighting. Part of it is that it isn't a huge priority for me, other part is that it feels bad to take out and toss perfectly working bulbs just because they're the wrong temperature.
barbazoo 5y ago
> New Zealand's bid to become bid to become a dark sky nation Love it. Title needs fixing needs fixing though.
- dang 5y ago
  Whoops! Fixed. Thanks!
- subsubzero 5y ago
  yeah should be: New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation
yumraj 5y ago
What are they going to do about that 10s of thousands of Starlink satellites that will start interfering with observations?
- starik36 5y ago
  The newer Starlink satellites have a sun shield. That should, in theory, make them impervious to observations.
  - tejtm 5y ago
    Where "impervious" means you can't see through the the sun shield either.
    - starik36 5y ago
      At their size (10m x 2.8m), it probably won't even measure a full pixel.
    - GekkePrutser 5y ago
      That's much less of a problem. A bright point in the sky will bloom in the optics and blot out a larger space than it occupies. A dark spot doesn't.
- mlindner 5y ago
  Starlink satellites aren't really naked eye visible anymore except in cases where they flare from lucky angles. They're around magnitude 6.5 which is basically at the limit of human vision.
NKosmatos 5y ago
Very good initiative and I think that Australia won't have any problems with dark skies, considering how sparsely populated most of the continent is. Have a look at these dark skies maps: https://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html https://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html https://www.lightpollutionmap.info https://www.lightpollutionmap.info https://www.cleardarksky.com/maps/lp/large_light_pollution_map.html https://www.cleardarksky.com/maps/lp/large_light_pollution_m...
balaji1 5y ago
This article needs to be more readable. Or at least easier to skim once. But this is a great initiative. Hope NZ makes progress.
LocalH 5y ago
The title has "bid to become" duplicated.
ourmandave 5y ago
So I'm officially coining the phrase "Astronomy Economy". Although I've no idea how to make mad profits doing so. Maybe NFTs, something, something.
tiffanyh 5y ago
Can anyone link to a photo of the sky taken from such a location which doesn't have HDR cranked to an 11.
- joemi 5y ago
  Different cameras have different dynamic ranges (pro cameras can have much higher dynamic ranges than an iphone or even a consumer DSLR), so what dynamic range do you find acceptable? (Also it's pretty hard to show via a digital image what your naked eye would see, since the eye has a high dynamic range.)
  - mgraczyk 5y ago
    HDR isn't just about the range of the camera. It's about the range compression used to go from the original light intensity to the 8-bit JPEG rendered in your browser. The image in the article has very aggressive, nonphysical tone mapping. If they didn't, the bottom of the scene would be black. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping
  - MrStonedOne 5y ago
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- dheera 5y ago
  I do a lot of astrophotography in California mostly -- https://instagram.com/dheeranet/ https://instagram.com/dheeranet/ That said, cameras are inherently much more sensitive to the naked eye, and if you expose for even a few seconds you'll get an image that is far more than your eye can see, let alone hours which are normal for astrophotography. To add to that, your monitor only has about 8 bits of dynamic range, which is far less than your eye has, so it's not really possible to represent an image on a monitor exactly like it looks to the eye. You'll end up with a lot of black pixels or a lot of white pixels. It's not really possible to describe what the sky looks like to the eye using photographs. If you're US-based, I'd really recommend a trip to a dark sky national park such as Death Valley, Lassen, or even Pinnacles.
endisneigh 5y ago
Other than seeing space what’s the downside of artificial light exactly? The article doesn’t really spell it out.
- bobthepanda 5y ago
  artificial lights do mess with wildlife a lot. https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/wildlife/ https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/wildlife/ Many animals use light or the absence of it as a guide to do various things, so when we artificially extend the day cycle with night pollution it disrupts them in a myriad of ways.
- msluyter 5y ago
  It disrupts insects (and thus, everything downstream of them in the food chain): https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210317141651.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210317141651.h...
- Jackim 5y ago
  It affects bird migration, results in algae blooms when near lakes, harms navigational instincts for species including sea turtles, and negatively impacts nocturnal species. There’s a good summary here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_light_pollution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_light_pollution
- novok 5y ago
  Also effects human sleep cycles.
- tejtm 5y ago
  The effects of artificial light are manifold. Assigning upsides and downsides is left as an exercise. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=light+pollution+human https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=light+pollution+human Also note humans seem to have an inherent "light budget" the cheaper it is, the more we use. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=historic+light+cost+v.s.+use&t=ffsb&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=historic+light+cost+v.s.+use&t=ffs...
- culi 5y ago
illys 5y ago
I remember the night sky of the 80's in the property of my grand-parents, South of France during the summer holidays: in my early years we had a clear view of the Milky Way... But every year, a larger share of the night sky was turning orange: the near-by city was extending. Nowadays there are lamp posts on their land and no remaining starts: when they passed away, the city was in the end of their road, becoming a street, and a dozen houses was built on my childhood fields. Time has passed, and I don't know where I can show the Milky Way to my children.
- culopatin 5y ago
  Argentinian Patagonia. I was there in December. Drove 30min on a dirt road to the middle of nowhere and I found myself in space. We even saw that comet that’s flying nearby with just binoculars
- drekipus 5y ago
  You can, just go for a camp once in a while
  - danlugo92 5y ago
    People say this but I've been in like interstates and such and never seen the milky way??
    - culi 5y ago
      Are you making sure to pay attention to the moon cycle? It's important to go at a new moon and definitely not during a full moon
      - iso1631 5y ago
        1) Go camp 2) Ensure clear skies 3) Ensure new moon 4) Ensure camp ground is dark 5) Ensure it's warm enough that everyone is happy enough to stay out 6) Ensure it gets dark early enough It's doable, you have to specifically aim for it though
teruakohatu 5y ago
As much as I would love for NZ to become a dark sky nation, this BBC article is the first I have heard of it. Meanwhile our cities are all replacing sodium street lamps with vastly overpowered LEDs.
- YaBomm 5y ago
muh_gradle 5y ago
Growing up in Oregon during the 90s, I remember seeing the stars every night very vividly. As an adult now, the last time I got to see a great view of the Milky Way was on Cadillac Mountain in Acadia National Park. It really is something else. Light pollution has pretty much destroyed any of the stars everywhere I have lived.
jimkleiber 5y ago
When I read this, I think that no matter how much New Zealand eliminates their light pollution, there may be satellites and other things in space that impact their views of the sky. It has me wondering, how is space governed and how do we want it to be governed?
- cfcosta 5y ago
  With your naked eye, you won't be able to see them, except on deploy, which most of the pictures you see around are. The satellites themselves are getting better at "being dark" and the image processing algorithms are getting better at removing them, so I don't think it will be much of a problem, specially for deep space astronomy that is nearing a revolution with more launches more cheaply. Astrophotography might be a different story, but I haven't seen much uproar after the dark starlink satellites got deployed, but maybe I didn't look hard enough. Either way, it is still a smaller problem than ground light pollution, so maybe fixing that can give us more slack to deploy more stuff.
  - jimkleiber 5y ago
    Ah, I'm glad it doesn't seem to be as big of a problem as I had been reading before. Also still curious about the general "how do we regulate a global space with national governments" problem.
    - mlindner 5y ago
      It's regulated by most countries having signed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty Specifically in this case it's covered by these four items: * outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all States; * States shall be responsible for national space activities whether carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities; * States shall be liable for damage caused by their space objects; and * States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies. Thusly: the US is free to use space as it sees fit and thus allows US companies to use it as long as they follow US regulations. If the US or a US company damages property of another country then the US is liable for such damage (and can be billed for the damage/cleanup) and the US is responsible if SpaceX fills orbit with debris. NASA and the US have also recently created the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_Accords https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_Accords which are a interpretation of sorts of the outer space treaty and some nations have signed on to that interpretation, which has these bullet points: > The Signatories commit to plan for the mitigation of orbital debris, including the safe, timely, and efficient passivation and disposal of spacecraft at the end of their missions, when appropriate, as part of their mission planning process. In the case of cooperative missions, such plans should explicitly include which Signatory has the primary responsibility for the end-of-mission planning and implementation. > The Signatories commit to limit, to the extent practicable, the generation of new, long-lived harmful debris released through normal operations, break-up in operational or post-mission phases, and accidents and conjunctions, by taking appropriate measures such as the selection of safe flight profiles and operational configurations as well as post-mission disposal of space structures.
acd 5y ago
Its good with dark night to be able to watch the stars and our place in the universe. Also remember seeing stars as a kid just walking outside the house on the country side.
aunty_helen 5y ago
Interesting they use the Church of the Good Shepherd as the title photo for this. You'll find Mt. John observatory nearby, and the local region is already designated a dark sky area. The interesting thing however, is the local township of Tekapo is booming in population due to... well, boomers. Tekapo is a nice place to settle down, plenty of retiries from Christchurch have built homes there and the size of the town has grown massively since the first time I visited it 20 something years ago. Unfortunately, I don't think the dark sky reserve will get in the way of further expansion. Mandated blackout curtains and low light street lamps can only go so far to combat the ever increasing light pollution in the basin. Unfortunately pt2 for Mt John observatory, it's survival has been in trouble before as the latitude is serviced by better telescopes in Chile. Therefore it's lacking investment drive for better instruments / expansion etc.
fennecs 5y ago
I’m sure we could dim the cities after 12am. Also lights are not the solution to crime, it’s merely preventing some symptoms rather than addressing the actual issues. I think it would be great to also impose noise limits/ car curfews.
- captainredbeard 5y ago
  > Also lights are not the solution to crime, it’s merely preventing some symptoms Mitigating symptoms and working on the "root cause" is a prudent approach when dealing with life and death matters.
kingcharles 5y ago
Isle of Man is another great dark sky nation. Almost all their street lighting in the whole country is turned off by 1am, so it is dark-dark at night: https://www.islandescapes.im/blog/holiday-makers/Isle-of-Man-Dark-Skies https://www.islandescapes.im/blog/holiday-makers/Isle-of-Man...
pleb_nz 5y ago
I often wonder, is there any reason our street lights don't use lamps that only turn on, or only turn on fully when human activity is detected.
1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago
""I see 10 or so shooting stars every few hours I'm out here. Lately, though, I'm seeing more and more man-made pollution like Elon Musk's SpaceX satellite."
- mlindner 5y ago
  I'm a strong proponent of fighting light pollution (sky glow is horrible), but I'm totally against people trying to mislabel satellites as light pollution. One of the cool night sky observations you could do was to catch Iridium flares. Also it's completely impossible to determine without looking it up if the satellite you're seeing is a starlink satellite or not. I further doubt that that person is seeing them as those things are 6.5 magnitude which is nigh impossible for a human eye to see. There's LOTS of other satellites, much larger ones. If you go to a dark sky site you see satellites all the time, and I saw plenty before starlink as well.
aaron695 5y ago
wtmt 5y ago
> Conference delegates from around the world were concerned about the world's increasing light pollution and its proven negative effects on human health… Could someone point out what proven negative health effects this article is referring to? Is it just from light pollution or is it also from indoor lights during evening and night time as well? I can only guess that the circadian rhythm may be affected with bright lights after sunset.
chriselles 5y ago
I took the family to the Mount John Observatory near Lake Tekapo here in New Zealand thru the Dark Skies Project. It was quite impressive. As was the considerable efforts the town of Tekapo has gone to in order to limit light pollution with all external public lighting. Just south of that location is an NZDF training area where one night I was able to observe an object burn across the night sky thru a night vision monocular and a thermal sighting system during an overnight training activity. The seemingly substantial size and slow speed of the object going across the horizon from east to west was really unsettling, but there was nothing in the news the next day. Several years later at an Act in Space Hackathon an attendee helped me determine that it was likely a booster stage breaking up from a Vandenberg Air Force Base launch.

305 points by throw0101a 5y ago

> artificial light is increasing globally by at least 2% every year Um this is scary, isn't it? I want cities across the world to start switching over to low pressure sodium lamps. Yellow light for the win!

khuey 5y ago
Isn't low pressure sodium vapor a dead technology?
- imoverclocked 5y ago
  It's still used ... so, no?
  - kunai 5y ago
    High pressure sodium is very common and still available. Low pressure sodium is extinct. The last LPS lamp was made in 2018 I believe. It's a shame, because LPS was the gold standard for astronomy as the hyperspecific emission spectrum made it extremely easy to filter out for astrophotographers and telescope users
    - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
      it's totally possible to make leds with similar properties, but it's generally but done because narrow spectrum lighting messes with color perception
throw0101a 5y ago
Dark Sky approved products: * https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/ https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus...
blue1 5y ago
I also like sodium lighting, especially the LP variety (despite the fact that all the mystic about orange light helping sleep has been basically debunked), but it is still light. We should decrease light pollution, not simply change its color. Anyway, sodium lamps are being replaced by white LEDs.
- inciampati 5y ago
  Blue light doesn't suppress melatonin production? Got a reference for that? This was afaik a reproducible result.
  - openknot 5y ago
    A Time article [0] reports on this paper [1] that reaches the same conclusion as the user's comment. However, it's a mice study, which is an important limitation because rodents are nocturnal, according to the Time reporter. Meanwhile, Harvard Health [2] and WebMD [3] also both continue to report that blue light suppresses melatonin production for humans. From Time: "Animal studies should always be taken with a grain of salt, as they often do not translate directly to human behavior. And there are additional caveats to this particular paper, says Dr. Cathy Goldstein, a sleep specialist at Michigan Medicine. The researchers looked specifically at cones in the animals’ eyes, which detect color, instead of melanopsin, which senses light and is central to the issue of melatonin secretion. "They also kept light levels dim, regardless of color, which may not reflect the bright lights of electronics. "And finally, though mice are frequently used in sleep research, Goldstein notes that since the rodents are nocturnal, they may respond differently to light than humans do. Taken together, Goldstein says these conditions mean the study’s results apply only to a very narrow set of circumstances and metrics. “For this to get extrapolated to saying ‘blue light at night isn’t bad for you’ is a little bit of an extension,” Goldstein says." [0] https://time.com/5752454/blue-light-sleep/ https://time.com/5752454/blue-light-sleep/ [1] https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)31368-5 https://www.cell.com/current-biology/fulltext/S0960-9822(19)... [2] https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-has-a-dark-side https://www.health.harvard.edu/staying-healthy/blue-light-ha... [3] https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-blue-light https://www.webmd.com/sleep-disorders/sleep-blue-light
gtirloni 5y ago
Yellow light is horrible though. It seems to make everything really dark in my neighborhood. Most parts of the city are switching to white LED lights here and they feel much better.
- gsruff 5y ago
  My experience has been exactly the opposite. My neighborhood went from yellow, sodium lighting to stark white LEDs a few years ago. The result, to my eyes, is that the contrast between what is lit by the street lights and surrounding dark areas is much higher. Perhaps what is needed is better diffusion onto the ground.
  - novok 5y ago
    Or 2000K wide spectrum LED lamps vs doing stupid 6000K-5000K LED lamps at night and messing with human sleep cycles even more :/ Or causing nausea with the narrow spectrum yellow sodium lamps.
    - adgjlsfhk1 5y ago
      the problem with 2000k lights is that human night vision is much more sensitive to bluer light. you can use about half as much light while appearing as bright by moving to 3500k
- rmbyrro 5y ago
  That's true. Inside my home I prefer yellow light, but on the streets white light does work a lot better. I know it's psychological, but white light also gives me a better sense of security walking at night on the street.
  - micromacrofoot 5y ago
    There are some weird claims correlated with bluer light... that in public spaces they reduce crime or suicide rates. There's not a lot of actual data, but I've seen a lot of articles about it pop up... maybe it's just everyone's predilection towards easy fixes for complicated problems (like the too-rosy broken windows theory claims) https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/projects/crime-lights-study https://urbanlabs.uchicago.edu/projects/crime-lights-study
initplus 5y ago
Modern LED street lighting is more directional than traditional sodium lamps, and results in less overall light pollution.
- deleted 5y ago
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- el_nahual 5y ago
  Unfortunately it's also: 1. Much blue-er and so WAY worse for people's circadian rhythms 2. Much "sharper" in it's shadows, so you go from blindingly bright to pitch black without your eyes having a chance to adapt, making it unsafer, and making the shadows "darker" 3. Much harder to filter out for astronomers It's only advantage is really that it's a lot more energy efficient, but it seems like white LEDs are a net decrease to human welfare as opposed to yellow sodium lamps. Anecdotally, I used to live in front of a park that had yellow lamps and it was never an issue at night, but when they switched to white LEDs my entire house was illuminated with very blue, daylike-like light, really messing up my sleep.
  - throw0101a 5y ago
    > 1. Much blue-er and so WAY worse for people's circadian rhythms There is always garbage out there, regardless of product category. For streetlights you can get good products. Acuity's Autobahn Series ATB0: > White Light: Correlated color temperature - 4000K, or optional 2700K, 3000K or 5000K, all 70 CRI * https://img.acuitybrands.com/public-assets/catalog/122046/atb0_.pdf?abl_version=01%2f19%2f2022+05:11:15&DOC_Type=SPEC_SHEET https://img.acuitybrands.com/public-assets/catalog/122046/at... * https://americanelectriclighting.acuitybrands.com/products/detail/122046/american-electric-lighting/autobahn-atb0/autobahn-led-cobra-head https://americanelectriclighting.acuitybrands.com/products/d... * Via: https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-industry/fsa/fsa-products/#!/Roadway/c/12536252 https://www.darksky.org/our-work/lighting/lighting-for-indus... > 2. Much "sharper" in it's shadows, so you go from blindingly bright to pitch black without your eyes having a chance to adapt, making it unsafer, and making the shadows "darker" Lighting and crime (prevention) is debatable: * https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-and-safety/ https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/lighting-crime-and-s... Further, glare can blind people so as to not being able to see in darker areas: * https://cescos.fau.edu/observatory/lightpol-security.html#GlarebombsNoSec https://cescos.fau.edu/observatory/lightpol-security.html#Gl... > 3. Much harder to filter out for astronomers IMHO we can start worrying about this after we actually reduce light pollution. If we're at the point that astronomers can actually do useful work around large urban centres then let's start worrying about spectrum. As it stands they probably can't do much of anything now.
xupybd 5y ago
Maybe something in the temperature you want but more efficient than sodium lamps?

taffronaut 5y ago

La Palma in the Canary Islands passed a law in 1988 "to protect the quality of the night sky for the purpose of astrophysical observation" [1]. This seemed primarily for the benefit of large international optical observatories on the island. Not sure how they're that's faring after the recent volcanic eruption, but the law seemed quite strictly enforced when I visited a few years ago - streetlightling intensity was low and there were very few (if any) floodlit buildings. [1] https://www.starsislandlapalma.es/en/the-island/the-sky-starlight-reserve/ https://www.starsislandlapalma.es/en/the-island/the-sky-star...

seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Tucson Arizona is well known for having a strong night sky protection law. It sure makes the street lights in that city very different.
- piptastic 5y ago
  Kyba and colleagues found that streetlights accounted for just 13 percent of the city’s total light visible after midnight. That number would jump to 18 percent if the city did not dim the lights. This means most of the light is coming from other types of artificial lighting. https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/148259/experimenting-with-tucson-night-lights https://earthobservatory.nasa.gov/images/148259/experimentin...
  - seanmcdirmid 5y ago
    Yes. External house lighting, especially in higher-than-average-crime Arizona, is probably going to keep the numbers up. Also headlights from cars, though there shouldn't be much of that past midnight.
    - labster 5y ago
      Do external lights prevent or reduce crime? If so, by how much?

manicdee 5y ago

In Australia we have a Dark Sky park at the Warrumbungles where the Siding Springs Observatory lives. IIRC we also have some of the radio-quietest parts of the Earth where the SKA is being developed. I love the idea of making the whole country a Dark Sky park.

lenova 5y ago
Agreed! I had the joy of visiting the Aoraki dark sky reserve in New Zealand a few years back. The night sky was surreal: I have never seen the the galaxy so clear and bright before. Visiting a Dark Sky park was one of the highlights of my life, and I'm jealous of New Zealand expanding the concept.
- Teknoman117 5y ago
  I should probably take a vacation there at some point, once the pandemic ends. I miss traveling. I spent nearly two months outside of the US in 2019 (Japan and Germany) and it was awesome.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    Having visited a ton of countries I have to say new Zealand is the most beautiful and diverse country in terms of scenery I have visited. Really good choice. Too bad it's so far away from Europe

deleted 5y ago

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sparker72678 5y ago

I wish them all the best. There's nothing like a clear dark sky. Meanwhile, my neighbors are all doing their best to recreate daylight brightness all through the night with flood lights in their driveways, begging for ever brighter street lights, etc. I feel like more than half the population would truly end nighttime if given the opportunity.

gs17 5y ago
>begging for ever brighter street lights And near me that seemed to mean they also need to be cool white LEDs (which, being more efficient than what they replaced, will be run brighter) tilted slightly upward so they shine both into the sky and second story bedrooms.
- dashundchen 5y ago
  Agreed. I've seen plenty of street lights that have diffuse, warm/yellow LEDs and a good downward pattern. But my city keeps insisting on installing the blinding cool LEDs that cast everywhere! I don't get who thinks these look good, except that some people associate the cool temperature = modern. Then again, when I walk around at night, I see a lot of houses and apartments lit up with wildly different bulb temperatures, or cool color temperatures in their living rooms. It would drive me crazy but it's possible some people don't notice these things.
  - stordoff 5y ago
    > cool color temperatures in their living rooms. It would drive me crazy but it's possible some people don't notice these things That's a deliberate choice for me. I have colour temperature adjustable lighting, and prefer the cooler temperatures (~6500k), particularly when reading.
  - kelnos 5y ago
    I moved into my current home about 2 years ago, and it's been a slow process to replace cooler lighting with warmer lighting. Part of it is that it isn't a huge priority for me, other part is that it feels bad to take out and toss perfectly working bulbs just because they're the wrong temperature.

barbazoo 5y ago

> New Zealand's bid to become bid to become a dark sky nation Love it. Title needs fixing needs fixing though.

dang 5y ago
Whoops! Fixed. Thanks!
subsubzero 5y ago
yeah should be: New Zealand's bid to become a dark sky nation

yumraj 5y ago

What are they going to do about that 10s of thousands of Starlink satellites that will start interfering with observations?

starik36 5y ago
The newer Starlink satellites have a sun shield. That should, in theory, make them impervious to observations.
- tejtm 5y ago
  Where "impervious" means you can't see through the the sun shield either.
  - starik36 5y ago
    At their size (10m x 2.8m), it probably won't even measure a full pixel.
  - GekkePrutser 5y ago
    That's much less of a problem. A bright point in the sky will bloom in the optics and blot out a larger space than it occupies. A dark spot doesn't.
mlindner 5y ago
Starlink satellites aren't really naked eye visible anymore except in cases where they flare from lucky angles. They're around magnitude 6.5 which is basically at the limit of human vision.

NKosmatos 5y ago

Very good initiative and I think that Australia won't have any problems with dark skies, considering how sparsely populated most of the continent is. Have a look at these dark skies maps: https://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html https://darksitefinder.com/maps/world.html https://www.lightpollutionmap.info https://www.lightpollutionmap.info https://www.cleardarksky.com/maps/lp/large_light_pollution_map.html https://www.cleardarksky.com/maps/lp/large_light_pollution_m...

balaji1 5y ago

This article needs to be more readable. Or at least easier to skim once. But this is a great initiative. Hope NZ makes progress.

LocalH 5y ago

The title has "bid to become" duplicated.

ourmandave 5y ago

So I'm officially coining the phrase "Astronomy Economy". Although I've no idea how to make mad profits doing so. Maybe NFTs, something, something.

tiffanyh 5y ago

Can anyone link to a photo of the sky taken from such a location which doesn't have HDR cranked to an 11.

joemi 5y ago
Different cameras have different dynamic ranges (pro cameras can have much higher dynamic ranges than an iphone or even a consumer DSLR), so what dynamic range do you find acceptable? (Also it's pretty hard to show via a digital image what your naked eye would see, since the eye has a high dynamic range.)
- mgraczyk 5y ago
  HDR isn't just about the range of the camera. It's about the range compression used to go from the original light intensity to the 8-bit JPEG rendered in your browser. The image in the article has very aggressive, nonphysical tone mapping. If they didn't, the bottom of the scene would be black. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tone_mapping
- MrStonedOne 5y ago
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dheera 5y ago
I do a lot of astrophotography in California mostly -- https://instagram.com/dheeranet/ https://instagram.com/dheeranet/ That said, cameras are inherently much more sensitive to the naked eye, and if you expose for even a few seconds you'll get an image that is far more than your eye can see, let alone hours which are normal for astrophotography. To add to that, your monitor only has about 8 bits of dynamic range, which is far less than your eye has, so it's not really possible to represent an image on a monitor exactly like it looks to the eye. You'll end up with a lot of black pixels or a lot of white pixels. It's not really possible to describe what the sky looks like to the eye using photographs. If you're US-based, I'd really recommend a trip to a dark sky national park such as Death Valley, Lassen, or even Pinnacles.

endisneigh 5y ago

Other than seeing space what’s the downside of artificial light exactly? The article doesn’t really spell it out.

bobthepanda 5y ago
artificial lights do mess with wildlife a lot. https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/wildlife/ https://www.darksky.org/light-pollution/wildlife/ Many animals use light or the absence of it as a guide to do various things, so when we artificially extend the day cycle with night pollution it disrupts them in a myriad of ways.
msluyter 5y ago
It disrupts insects (and thus, everything downstream of them in the food chain): https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210317141651.htm https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2021/03/210317141651.h...
Jackim 5y ago
It affects bird migration, results in algae blooms when near lakes, harms navigational instincts for species including sea turtles, and negatively impacts nocturnal species. There’s a good summary here: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_light_pollution https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ecological_light_pollution
novok 5y ago
Also effects human sleep cycles.
tejtm 5y ago
The effects of artificial light are manifold. Assigning upsides and downsides is left as an exercise. https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=light+pollution+human https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=light+pollution+human Also note humans seem to have an inherent "light budget" the cheaper it is, the more we use. https://duckduckgo.com/?q=historic+light+cost+v.s.+use&t=ffsb&ia=web https://duckduckgo.com/?q=historic+light+cost+v.s.+use&t=ffs...
culi 5y ago

illys 5y ago

I remember the night sky of the 80's in the property of my grand-parents, South of France during the summer holidays: in my early years we had a clear view of the Milky Way... But every year, a larger share of the night sky was turning orange: the near-by city was extending. Nowadays there are lamp posts on their land and no remaining starts: when they passed away, the city was in the end of their road, becoming a street, and a dozen houses was built on my childhood fields. Time has passed, and I don't know where I can show the Milky Way to my children.

culopatin 5y ago
Argentinian Patagonia. I was there in December. Drove 30min on a dirt road to the middle of nowhere and I found myself in space. We even saw that comet that’s flying nearby with just binoculars
drekipus 5y ago
You can, just go for a camp once in a while
- danlugo92 5y ago
  People say this but I've been in like interstates and such and never seen the milky way??
  - culi 5y ago
    Are you making sure to pay attention to the moon cycle? It's important to go at a new moon and definitely not during a full moon
    - iso1631 5y ago
      1) Go camp 2) Ensure clear skies 3) Ensure new moon 4) Ensure camp ground is dark 5) Ensure it's warm enough that everyone is happy enough to stay out 6) Ensure it gets dark early enough It's doable, you have to specifically aim for it though

teruakohatu 5y ago

As much as I would love for NZ to become a dark sky nation, this BBC article is the first I have heard of it. Meanwhile our cities are all replacing sodium street lamps with vastly overpowered LEDs.

YaBomm 5y ago

muh_gradle 5y ago

Growing up in Oregon during the 90s, I remember seeing the stars every night very vividly. As an adult now, the last time I got to see a great view of the Milky Way was on Cadillac Mountain in Acadia National Park. It really is something else. Light pollution has pretty much destroyed any of the stars everywhere I have lived.

jimkleiber 5y ago

When I read this, I think that no matter how much New Zealand eliminates their light pollution, there may be satellites and other things in space that impact their views of the sky. It has me wondering, how is space governed and how do we want it to be governed?

cfcosta 5y ago
With your naked eye, you won't be able to see them, except on deploy, which most of the pictures you see around are. The satellites themselves are getting better at "being dark" and the image processing algorithms are getting better at removing them, so I don't think it will be much of a problem, specially for deep space astronomy that is nearing a revolution with more launches more cheaply. Astrophotography might be a different story, but I haven't seen much uproar after the dark starlink satellites got deployed, but maybe I didn't look hard enough. Either way, it is still a smaller problem than ground light pollution, so maybe fixing that can give us more slack to deploy more stuff.
- jimkleiber 5y ago
  Ah, I'm glad it doesn't seem to be as big of a problem as I had been reading before. Also still curious about the general "how do we regulate a global space with national governments" problem.
  - mlindner 5y ago
    It's regulated by most countries having signed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Outer_Space_Treaty Specifically in this case it's covered by these four items: * outer space shall be free for exploration and use by all States; * States shall be responsible for national space activities whether carried out by governmental or non-governmental entities; * States shall be liable for damage caused by their space objects; and * States shall avoid harmful contamination of space and celestial bodies. Thusly: the US is free to use space as it sees fit and thus allows US companies to use it as long as they follow US regulations. If the US or a US company damages property of another country then the US is liable for such damage (and can be billed for the damage/cleanup) and the US is responsible if SpaceX fills orbit with debris. NASA and the US have also recently created the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_Accords https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artemis_Accords which are a interpretation of sorts of the outer space treaty and some nations have signed on to that interpretation, which has these bullet points: > The Signatories commit to plan for the mitigation of orbital debris, including the safe, timely, and efficient passivation and disposal of spacecraft at the end of their missions, when appropriate, as part of their mission planning process. In the case of cooperative missions, such plans should explicitly include which Signatory has the primary responsibility for the end-of-mission planning and implementation. > The Signatories commit to limit, to the extent practicable, the generation of new, long-lived harmful debris released through normal operations, break-up in operational or post-mission phases, and accidents and conjunctions, by taking appropriate measures such as the selection of safe flight profiles and operational configurations as well as post-mission disposal of space structures.

acd 5y ago

Its good with dark night to be able to watch the stars and our place in the universe. Also remember seeing stars as a kid just walking outside the house on the country side.

aunty_helen 5y ago

Interesting they use the Church of the Good Shepherd as the title photo for this. You'll find Mt. John observatory nearby, and the local region is already designated a dark sky area. The interesting thing however, is the local township of Tekapo is booming in population due to... well, boomers. Tekapo is a nice place to settle down, plenty of retiries from Christchurch have built homes there and the size of the town has grown massively since the first time I visited it 20 something years ago. Unfortunately, I don't think the dark sky reserve will get in the way of further expansion. Mandated blackout curtains and low light street lamps can only go so far to combat the ever increasing light pollution in the basin. Unfortunately pt2 for Mt John observatory, it's survival has been in trouble before as the latitude is serviced by better telescopes in Chile. Therefore it's lacking investment drive for better instruments / expansion etc.

fennecs 5y ago

I’m sure we could dim the cities after 12am. Also lights are not the solution to crime, it’s merely preventing some symptoms rather than addressing the actual issues. I think it would be great to also impose noise limits/ car curfews.

captainredbeard 5y ago
> Also lights are not the solution to crime, it’s merely preventing some symptoms Mitigating symptoms and working on the "root cause" is a prudent approach when dealing with life and death matters.

kingcharles 5y ago

Isle of Man is another great dark sky nation. Almost all their street lighting in the whole country is turned off by 1am, so it is dark-dark at night: https://www.islandescapes.im/blog/holiday-makers/Isle-of-Man-Dark-Skies https://www.islandescapes.im/blog/holiday-makers/Isle-of-Man...

pleb_nz 5y ago

I often wonder, is there any reason our street lights don't use lamps that only turn on, or only turn on fully when human activity is detected.

1vuio0pswjnm7 5y ago

""I see 10 or so shooting stars every few hours I'm out here. Lately, though, I'm seeing more and more man-made pollution like Elon Musk's SpaceX satellite."

mlindner 5y ago
I'm a strong proponent of fighting light pollution (sky glow is horrible), but I'm totally against people trying to mislabel satellites as light pollution. One of the cool night sky observations you could do was to catch Iridium flares. Also it's completely impossible to determine without looking it up if the satellite you're seeing is a starlink satellite or not. I further doubt that that person is seeing them as those things are 6.5 magnitude which is nigh impossible for a human eye to see. There's LOTS of other satellites, much larger ones. If you go to a dark sky site you see satellites all the time, and I saw plenty before starlink as well.

aaron695 5y ago

wtmt 5y ago

> Conference delegates from around the world were concerned about the world's increasing light pollution and its proven negative effects on human health… Could someone point out what proven negative health effects this article is referring to? Is it just from light pollution or is it also from indoor lights during evening and night time as well? I can only guess that the circadian rhythm may be affected with bright lights after sunset.

chriselles 5y ago

I took the family to the Mount John Observatory near Lake Tekapo here in New Zealand thru the Dark Skies Project. It was quite impressive. As was the considerable efforts the town of Tekapo has gone to in order to limit light pollution with all external public lighting. Just south of that location is an NZDF training area where one night I was able to observe an object burn across the night sky thru a night vision monocular and a thermal sighting system during an overnight training activity. The seemingly substantial size and slow speed of the object going across the horizon from east to west was really unsettling, but there was nothing in the news the next day. Several years later at an Act in Space Hackathon an attendee helped me determine that it was likely a booster stage breaking up from a Vandenberg Air Force Base launch.