17 ms·

Impacts of lack of sleep

277 points by belkarx 5y ago

Melatonic 5y ago
I tried to finish the original article but I was just too tired...
dvh 5y ago
Is 8h sleep from 22:00 to 6:00 qualitatively equivalent to 8h sleep from 00:00 to 8:00?
- jimt1234 5y ago
  This is a question I've had for years: Does time of day matter for sleep? If I go to sleep on a "normal" schedule (wake up, start day around 7am), I need 8 hours. However, I can totally survive, and even thrive, with just 5-ish hours of sleep, if I can wake up around 11am, going to sleep just before dawn. Not a doctor, so I don't know the answer. My assumption is that it depends on the person. I'm a night-person, so naturally the waking-at-11am schedule works best for me. But staying awake until 5:30am is unthinkable for most morning people.
- belkarx 5y ago
  I believe if you adjust your circadian rhythm accordingly, and don't face interference from external conditions (sunlight) they are equivalent.
- bot41 5y ago
  For me, I have noted that it is not. Even after long periods of going to sleep at later times. I have always found earlier to bed and earlier to rise is much better. My problem is I am never tired or motivated to go to bed before 00:00 or 01:00. I don't really get sleepy or yawny. I really only go to bed because it's getting to silly o'clock.
- jugg1es 5y ago
  There are multiple studies that show that the time that you sleep does matter. There is a higher risk of diabetes and obesity for people who sleep during the day and are awake at night. I'm not saying this to be a buzz kill, I really wish it wasn't true. Anecdotally, I used to keep very, very late hours and sleep a lot of the day - and I did this for years. I thought I was fine. Once I established a normal day/night cycle (kids and wife do that to you), I realized that I had been grumpy most of the time and not particularly happy. Soon after establishing a more normal rhythm, I also lost a considerable amount of weight (about 15lbs).
  - dathinab 5y ago
    It's less the time, and more how it interacts with the rest of your live. Like the bodies instinct related to light amount and how you allow your body to sleep getting out of sync. Or how day time tends to be more noisy and as such is more likely to disrupt your sleep. Or how meeting people fits less into your sleep cycle. Or how most people are not night active all the time, but switch between periods of night shifts and e.g. not being night active on your free days (because you e.g. can't go to the SPA at 2am). Or how bright lights, even such advertised as daylight lights, often do not replace day light properly. Etc. So, while the time doesn't matter directly in practice having a "off" cycle is much much more likely to affect your life implicitly in negative ways then a more day aligned cycle.
    - jugg1es 5y ago
      Yes, obviously it is about the day/night cycle and not about absolute time because people on the other side of the planet are just fine. But while the absolute time may not matter, the time you are awake during the day/night cycle does matter. You can try to tell yourself you can live outside this day/night cycle, but we just didn't evolve that way.
- dathinab 5y ago
  The time "numbers" do not matter but: - light availability matters, like how much lite you are exposed to in the morning, during the day and in the evening. - how it affects other parts of your live (e.g. how reliable you can keep the rhythm) - the body has a natural tendency to associate low, warmer light with "time to slowly go to bed", how likely are you to mess that up? - how does it fit in with fitness and food? I personally have a supper messed up sleep cycle. Through one think I know reliable is that it's hard for me to stand up at any time before 1-2h after daylight (not twilight), which living in the northern hemisphere means in winter I have a hard time standing up before 9-11am. Which messes with food intake and daily activities. At the same time it means that there is quite a long time in the evening with a constant not to bright light (room light), which messes with my body knowing when it's time to sleep. But having bight (indirect) "neutral" or "daylight" light around my work desk, "warm" light in my living room area and reducing it over time before going to sleep does help a bit. Through it also creates a light cycle detached from daylight ... which can be a problem, too. EDIT: Anyway: You are _much_ more likely to have subtle negative effects in your live implicitly caused by a less day aligned sleep cycle then you are with a day aligned sleep cycle. The more "off" your cycle is the more likely it will implicitly cause negative health effects, and the harder it gets to offset them.
WilTimSon 5y ago
I'm not sure how much this will do to change anyone. Sure, it's bluntly stated but, well, most people realize quite well that lack of sleep is awful and dangerous. People don't usually do it because they want to do it. Long hours at work, deadlines, stress, occasional bout of Netflix addiction. Out of all of those, there's only one that's easy to resolve and I'd wager that Netflix isn't usually the biggest contributor to chronic lack of sleep.
- cassianoleal 5y ago
  Also being a night person on a day people's world.
  - WilTimSon 5y ago
    Yup. Even being a day person and maintaining a solid schedule is hard. Oh, you'd like to go to bed on time but the two/three friends you still retain as an adult want to have a drink because today's the only day of the week they're free. And then tomorrow you want to go to sleep early but it's cleaning day and you need to do it cause then it'll be a tough day at work and so on, forever and ever.
- brimble 5y ago
  Imagine a medieval king who decided their castle should be lit up like day at nighttime, hundreds of candles in mirror-walled rooms, 365 days a year, and also that the entire castle save only the bed chamber would host the finest entertainers and all the most interesting friends and strangers in the world, party games and amusements in a hundred palace rooms, and a mage who could show the king any wonder of the world in his crystal ball, and a bazaar with the finest goods on display, the best academics, et c., et c., basically on tap, and this wild best-the-world's-ever-seen carnival would never. Close. So that all the king must do is open his bed chamber door, any hour, any day, to be enthusiastically welcomed into a veritable (and sometimes literal) orgy of entertainment. 24. 7. Year-round. Think that king might have a rather disrupted sleep schedule? It seems obviously insane to live like that, no? Instant reaction is "my god, why would you do that", right? Consider that a totally ordinary middle class house in the West is arguably worse than that. No wonder everyone "can't" sleep or "is just a night owl" (sure, some may actually be, not saying zero people are). Frankly it's a miracle we get anydamnthing done, and sleep at all. I'd encourage everyone to try candle-only lighting after sundown (or maybe extremely dim candle-temp electric lighting, though if you're just trying it briefly consider the candles, they're a bad idea for a bunch of reasons long-term but fine for a few days—you'd be surprised how little you need, I found two beeswax tapers were the minimum to read by without discomfort, but my eyes are still young-ish), no electric devices whatsoever (there's actually still a ton you can do—card games, board games, play music, read, draw, write, et c.), no whole-room lighting, just for a week or so. See if you're still a "night person" by day 7. [EDIT] Bonus round on the thought experiment at the top: imagine the king is, despite this questionable decision, actually fairly responsible and leaves the castle to go run the kingdom during the day, most days, retiring to this ultra-carnival-home only late in the day. You'll expect that to go even worse as far as sleep is concerned, right?
donkarma 5y ago
preaching to the choir, everyone wants sleep
- Afton 5y ago
  Yeah, this is like "people who are overweight: lose weight". Well gee I never thought of that before, I guess I'll go right out and do it. I certainly won't continue lying awake between 3-5am 2-4 times a week now that I know it's important. /s
  - fleddr 5y ago
    There's no need to be cynical. Out of all the health problems one might have, improving sleep is the easiest to fix with the biggest immediate benefits. Further, many issues people claim to have with sleep are self-inflicted, excuses, or solvable. When you improve your sleep, you're not missing out on pleasures in a way a strict diet may rob you of the goodies in life. You don't sacrifice anything with better sleep.
    - acuozzo 5y ago
      > Out of all the health problems one might have, improving sleep is the easiest to fix … when the sleep problem is internal. Dependents with their own sleep problems are not often dealt with easily.
    - Apocryphon 5y ago
      > improving sleep is the easiest to fix with the biggest immediate benefit Tell it to all the insomniacs.
- gensym 5y ago
  Is this true now? I hope so. When I started my career 20 years ago, it was common for people to take pride in how little they slept. Sleeping 8 hours/day was treated as a weakness. I don't hear such silliness so much now, but it was unclear whether that's because times have changed or because I now spend my time with wiser people.
jsrcout 5y ago
I've had terrible sleep issues forever. Finally got my sleep apnea and insomnia sorted out some years back (CPAP and melatonin+magnesium took care of it for me) and the difference is just incredible. I mean I would worry on a daily basis that I was going to black out at work and hit my head on my desk. (While still putting out decent work most of the time - not completely sure how). I no longer take multi-hour naps several evenings a week after work. I can't overstate the difference it's made in my life. Anyway, if you suffer from sleep issues, I urge you to take it seriously and do anything in your power to mitigate them.
- m463 5y ago
  Another way of saying this is is that time in bed is not equal to time spent sleeping. sleep hygiene is important. I got a CPAP and it really helped. Another overlooked one is sleeping in a cold room.
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thret 5y ago
The end of your life is not guaranteed. Your life may be shortened any number of ways unrelated to how much sleep you have had. Let's say you live to be 90, sleeping 8 hours a day. That's 60 years of actual living time, 20 of which occur between ages 60 and 90. If you sleep 4 hours a day and live to be 90, that's 75 years awake with those extra 15 years spread over your entire life - not just the last third which is likely to be less enjoyable and productive.
- belkarx 5y ago
  I see your point, however your life may be worse on average (health and mental state) because of the lower amount of sleep.
mikenew 5y ago
I've struggled with sleep for as long as I can remember. I have improved it considerably in the past year (still not perfect). Out of the dozens upon dozens of things I've tried, here's what I think made the most difference, in order of importance. 1. Very consistent bedtime and wake up time. +/- 30 minutes, but ideally less. Obviously if you struggle with sleep you can't count on falling asleep at the same time, but work at it. 2. Expose yourself to bright, outdoor light every morning. 3. Keep the lights as dim as you can tolerate for ~2 hours before bed. Blue light is technically worse than red, but total light is way more important. 4. Anything you do for ~1 hour before bed should be very passive. For me, reading is good, very particular kinds of TV is okay (can't be too stimulating), or something along those lines. Anything that requires decision making, social interaction, things that get you excited and so on are completely out. 5. Breathe through your nose. It can be hard at first but it gets easier over time. If your nose is constricted you can exhale all your air, hold your breath until you feel the urge to breathe, and then draw in a big breath through your nose. It will open up your nasal passages. Do it a couple times if you need to. If you have sleep apnea that you can't fix that way get a CPAP. 6. Meditation. And it's not really that doing 10 minutes of meditation during the day means you'll magically sleep better; it's more that you learn how to divert the noisy thoughts and focus on something very simple to help you relax at night. Also, sleep is a temporal problem. If you do everything perfectly for one day your probability of sleeping better at night will go up by some relatively small percentage. Which is discouraging. But if you really work at it for a month it will get significantly better. And by the same token, if you're in a good state, one or two days of disrupted sleep don't cause all that much damage. EDIT: 7. Forgot to mention this one: keep the room very cold. Matthew Walker (the guy who wrote Why We Sleep, which is a great book) recommends 65F.
- clumsysmurf 5y ago
  I'd also add 8. Don't eat within 2 hours of sleep (at least, maybe more). 9. Exercise earlier in the day, rather than later
- fleddr 5y ago
  Can't agree on reading. It's cognitively stimulating, assuming you read something that interests you. I don't know about you, but I can't just close the book and forget about it.
uoaei 5y ago
My sleep problem is not that I can't fall asleep when in bed, it's that I can't tell myself to go to the bed to sleep. I think it's some kind of chronic FOMO / productivity bug, but obviously it results in lowered productivity overall because of my effectiveness when fatigued. Has anyone else addressed this issue in their own lives or know some resources tailored to this problem to learn how to better approach bedtime?
- deleted 5y ago
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- fleddr 5y ago
  I have the same problem. I sleep within 5 minutes but I won't go to sleep. I stay up. I may waste 2 or 3 extra hours doing absolutely nothing productive instead of just going to sleep. My positive interpretation is that it's introvert me. I need significant alone time and this is the only time slot where I'm not constantly bothered or interrupted. The negative interpretation is that it's plain addiction. To distractions. News. Updates. Whatever. Whatever it is, I can't solve it. I need a kick in the butt. Somebody to force me to bed.
- munificent 5y ago
  Yeah, I get stuck in that loop. The trick that helps is to realize that I will get more done tomorrow if I go right the fuck to sleep tonight.
- darwingr 5y ago
  I have this too. Someone had a good list of things to be doing to optimize your environment. They definitely help. I would add: 1. putting on pyjamas at a certain time every day (e.g. 9:30 pm). 2. not eating anything after 8-9 pm, only drinking water. 3. have other activities like reading to do in the 1-2 hours before bed. 4. no stimulants in the afternoon. No chocolate in the evening. (easy to ignore but makes a big difference). The biggest psychological bad-habit I had to get over was ignoring my body/mind when I felt tired. If that means falling asleep in weird places, slightly earlier than expected or when there was still something I felt I needed to do, then just accept defeat for that day and let sleep take you over. Allowing my ego to accept defeat at the end of every day, to let sleep be the victor, that is the best way I can frame it for myself. In the end we're creatures that need sleep and to deny my own biology in that regard will lead to my own undoing.
holoduke 5y ago
For me the biggest change in sleep came when I started exercising on a daily base. I started boxing and fitness couple of years back . I sleep 9 hours everyday. Never feel tired during the day, except when I go to bed. Normally takes about 5 minutes to fall asleep. Whereas it used to be hours sometimes when I was younger.
friedman23 5y ago
As someone that has recently perfected their sleep I'll share my approach for anyone willing to try. 1. Always go to sleep within 30 minutes of a specific time every single day. If this ever starts to drift, take a pill of 100 micrograms of melatonin 3 hours before you intend to sleep to get back on track. 2. Get lights that turn on and off via a smartphone app. Set them to turn on 30 minutes before you intend to wakeup. No alarm. 3. Before sleeping supplement magnesium (most americans are deficient). I wake up with 0 grogginess every morning. It's amazing.
- ssklash 5y ago
  Did you ever used to wake up groggy? I feel like that's been a constant for me since forever.
  - friedman23 5y ago
    Yes, and I used to feel tired all day. I didn't include this in my original list but eating at the same specified time every day also helps with tiredness and keeping a sleep schedule.
areichert 5y ago
I've struggled with sleep for as long as I can remember, but my issue isn't falling asleep -- it's staying asleep throughout the night. I usually sleep ok from 12am-5am, but after that, I wake up and fall back asleep every ~30 mins or so til I get up around 8. Does anyone else have this issue? Curious if there are any good solutions...
- mettamage 5y ago
  IMO this is the toughest thing to solve. What somewhat works for me: * My GF cuddling me. I just think about her, and sleep and nothing else, it's a bit pavlov like. I'm fairly sure I get a lot of "feel good" chemicals when this happens. * Sounds silly but... build a buffer for 12 hours, and stay in bed for longer until you properly fall asleep again. * If I wake up after 4 hours of sleep and really need the sleep, I do 0.3mg melatonin. Not ideal, but it does the trick. * Meditation: sometimes (20% of the time) it nudges me to sleep. In all cases, it leaves me a bit more well-rested than if I'd not meditate. * 0.6mg melatonin + CBD at the beginning of the night. I'm not a fan of this solution. I find 0.6mg a bit much, but if I need a blunt tool, this would be it.
  - munificent 5y ago
    This is really great advice. I'm going to give this a try tonight. Which side of your girlfriend would you prefer I take?
    - mettamage 5y ago
      Hahaha, whichever side makes you fall asleep :')
- lr4444lr 5y ago
  You might be phototropic, which is not a bad thing. If you go to bed at 10 and wakeup at 5, congrats. That's your issue, and you should probably listen to your body. If you go to bed at 10 and wake up at 3, maybe make a lifestyle change.
- m3kw9 5y ago
bladley 5y ago
My problem is that I get too much sleep and it's very difficult for me to wake up if there's no meeting scheduled that morning for my flexible remote job or if there's no social pressure to get up. I'll happily sleep 12-14 hours if you let me. I've been this way since I was a teenager, and I'm 25 now. I know this sounds like I'm complaining about a luxury, and lack of sleep is definitely worse, but it's always made me feel like I'm wasting my days sleeping and missing out on life to a degree.
- vasco 5y ago
  Most of the ones awake wish they were sleeping an extra 2 hours, you enjoy it!
- coderenegade 5y ago
  Get a blood test. I was like this in my early twenties, turns out I'd had two strains of glandular fever.
- munificent 5y ago
  I was like that into my 20s. Now in my 40s, I'm lucky to get nine hours. Enjoy it while it lasts and don't worry about it too much. (But set an alarm if it's impacting work.)
- csdvrx 5y ago
  I'm just like you. Healthy, but I sleep a lot. 10h is ok, but 12h is my sweetspot. And before people ask, I love starting my day with a Monster (caffeine + taurine + ...) I just put that on genetic variability. Stop the FOMO on life: mornings are no better than afternoons :)
- maximus-decimus 5y ago
  Ever got a sleep test? You might have some health condition like sleep apnea.
jvanderbot 5y ago
How long do I have to lose sleep for permanent effects? My newborn children would like to know their dad isn't going to suffer these problems.
- llIIllIIllIIl 5y ago
  Congratulations! Your newborn has a distinct smell at the back of their head. You can smell it when you’re feeling tired and it will give you energy compared to a shot of espresso. Goes away around 6-7 months. Fully empirical knowledge, I cannot explain the science behind it.
  - dashwehacct 5y ago
    Can you provide some resources? I’m genuinely interested and search results are unyielding.
d--b 5y ago
Bluntly Stated: FUCK. YOU. I have tried everything there is. - lost 20 pounds - check - stopped smoking, alcohol, coffee - check - more sport - check - no screen - check - melatonin - check - light therapy - check - hypnosis - check - phytotherapy - check - accupuncture - check - that thing in your mouth - check - not working for a while - check You think I don't know being tired makes me an asshole? Well rejoice, apparently I'm going to die early.
- yasp 5y ago
  Have you had your vitamin d levels checked? Worth checking out what Dr. Stasha Gominak has written on the subject.
  - lloydatkinson 5y ago
    And iron
    - codyb 5y ago
      Iron was huge for me. I’m a blood donor. Last time I went I couldn’t sleep for a week until I started cramming chicken and spinach down my maw like there was no tomorrow. Got rid of all the issues I was having. B vitamins are another big one, especially if you drink sometimes.
    - belkarx 5y ago
      +1 on iron. Iron deficiency has surprisingly widespread effects.
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- lokl 5y ago
  If you haven't done so, try removing dust mites or other potential allergens from your bedroom.
smashem 5y ago
Tangentially, anyone tried dry sauna therapy sessions at night before bed? It's helped me tremendously with sleep and more. It's a bit considered a luxury, but maybe you can find a gym or spa membership that's low cost.
- frob 5y ago
  I installed an IR sauna a few months back. I use it almost daily. Sleep has been fantastic since then and I recover from workouts much more quickly. Stretching is also much easier in it and I've easily increased my bent-over stretch by 3 inches since I started focusing on it.
SquibblesRedux 5y ago
Perhaps we should praise the benefits of naps. [0] - Increased alertness - Attitude adjustment - A creative mindset - Cash saver (because the cost of drugs adds up) [0] https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-lifestyle/sleep/benefits-of-napping https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-lifestyle/sl...
- bigwindow1 5y ago
  This is one of my favourite things about working from home. I can take a power nap in the afternoon and be so much more productive when I wake up!
nkozyra 5y ago
I did sleep studies, medicines (including modafinil which worked but had scary sides), natural supplements (which helped but tended to result in lesser quality sleep). In the end I needed to make sleep my number one priority and I focused on it for several months. I slowly built up what worked for me, but likely won't work for you. A lot of being in bed at 10 staring at a dark ceiling for 3+ hours. Getting into meditation (in the am, not evening), exercising but never after noon and not eating after 6. Alcohol in any amount won't prevent my sleep but will vastly deteriorate the quality. It took tons of trial and error to do what medical professionals couldn't help with. My conclusion is sleep is complicated and highly individual. You need to identify the things that wreck your sleep and pick them off with serious attention to them.
- joegahona 5y ago
  Isn't modafinil a stimulant? A coworker gave me some and I was super-productive at work.
  - 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
    > Isn't modafinil a stimulant? It's... stimulant-ish? Nobody seems to know exactly how it works.
    - pkoird 5y ago
      Can you even get that without a prescription?
      - thamer 5y ago
        The answer is "yes"… from online pharmacies that ship it from India. Whether you get the real product or a counterfeit version is anyone's guess.
        unmole 5y ago
        It seems to legally retail at 0.25 USD per pill: https://www.1mg.com/drugs/modalert-100-tablet-19037 https://www.1mg.com/drugs/modalert-100-tablet-19037 I assume online pharmacies sell at a heavy markup. It hardly seems like counterfeiting would be worth the effort.
tempnow987 5y ago
I've used books on tape (audible) with a 30 minute sleep timer. I've been falling asleep within minutes. After a week or two of listening to the same 30 seconds to a minute, I switch books, because I start to literally dread starting these things up. Perhaps the books are just too boring.
adamredwoods 5y ago
I'm a light sleeper, so noise is a critical concern for me in getting good sleep. My partner is a heavy snorer, and sometimes our son wakes me up to get water (because I'm a light sleeper and get up quicker). I remedied this by sleeping in a separate bed and that helped get some solid sleep. My partner was unhappy with this less affectionate arrangement, but solid sleep is precious! To top it off, our neighbors have loud cars they like to rev at odd hours in the night. It can be seriously bothersome, and earplugs are needed. We've complained, but they are apathetic. All this prep to get some solid sleep!
echelon 5y ago
I've had trouble with sleep since I was a kid. - I'm a night owl. The rest of the world runs on mornings, and I hate it. (Working with west coast / remote has made this much easier. Seldom any 10 AM meetings.) - Work / life balance is impossible if you're trying to do anything substantial outside of work. You have to find time to get it done, and losing sleep is the easiest thing to do.
- uejfiweun 5y ago
  +1, I also work a remote west coast job from the east coast. I haven't set an alarm since 2020 (apart from a few early flights). It's been great.
op00to 5y ago
I have kids. I am just going to be sleep deprived so my children don’t feel abandoned when they can’t sleep like I did. I’d rather have well adjusted kids than be well rested.
- alexpotato 5y ago
  I always love reading the "productivity hacks" of people without kids and there is always an item which is basically: - go to bed and wake up at the same time and try to get 8 straight hours. Or if not, take a nap etc. Good luck with that if you have multiple children under 5
  - civilized 5y ago
    Most advice in techworld begins with an implicit "don't have kids". Children don't and shouldn't exist.
  - maximus-decimus 5y ago
    My favorite is the book How To Live Your Life In 24 Hours which was written around 1920 I think. It doesn't technically imply you don't have kids... more that your wife will take care of literally all the work at home. Don't have time in the morning? Tell your wife to fill the kettle and put matches beside it so you can more easily prepare your tea when you wake up!
    - op00to 5y ago
      That’s genius! Why didn’t I think to ask my wife to leave the matches out! Ha ha.
perardi 5y ago
Well…duh, lack of sleep is bad. It’s not like I had 10 years of insomnia by choice. And I’d gather most people, besides the tiny-but-vocal crowd talking about sleep hacking† and grinding and growth hacking or whatever, are desperate for more sleep. My potentially unpopular opinion: if you have long-term sleep issues that aren’t resolved by lifestyle changes and sleep hygiene, go to a doctor. I had years and years of poor sleep, and I finally found help that way. †modafinil is great, though.
FabHK 5y ago
Is this scientific consensus? I remember the Matthew Walker book (Why We Sleep) was heavily criticised. For example this article + discussion: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26684519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26684519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22419958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22419958
- OzyM 5y ago
  My thoughts exactly. My overall takeaway from sleep research is that although there are some health risks with undersleeping, there are (possibly greater) health risks with oversleeping, plus the prevalence of sleep deprivation is greatly overestimated.
- dentalperson 5y ago
  These points and the Guzey essay were discussed in depth in Science Fictions by Stuart Ritchie, which features examples of negligence and fraud in science. Having read and enjoyed the message in Why We Sleep, my first reaction before reading based on the length of the essay was that the motivation was axe-grindy, but the further I read the more it made sense and the more egregious Walker's claims seemed. The lack of a response from Walker is another serious concern (especially after Andrew Gelman highlights this). It seems that he is trying to avoid a Streisand Effect by ignoring it completely. If that is the case, Walker's strategy seems to be working because on the comments on new threads like this, many mention mention Walker but seem unaware of the criticisms.
  - yolo69420 5y ago
    Doesn't he have a response on his website? I swear I read it at some point
    - FabHK 5y ago
      Oh, right, thank you and GP for reminding me, there was more discussion of this: Here Gelman's pieces (at stat modeling): https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/11/18/is-matthew-walkers-why-we-sleep-riddled-with-scientific-and-factual-errors/ https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/11/18/is-matthew... https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/12/27/why-we-sleep-data-manipulation-a-smoking-gun/ https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/12/27/why-we-sle... (<- more links in this one) Quote from Gelman: > We’ve left “super-important researcher too busy to respond to picky comments” territory and left “well-intentioned but sloppy researcher can’t keep track of citations” territory and entered “research misconduct” territory. This may be a response by Walker to criticism: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/ https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-... Here's a reddit discussion where Guzey responds to that response and raises further points: https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/ekdbo2/matthew_walker_responds_to_guzey_why_we_sleep/ https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/ekdbo2/matt...
frob 5y ago
For me, the best thing to induce a good night of sleep is exercise. It can be at any time of the day. Some of my best night have been after I finished an hour-long heavy weight workout 45 minutes before going to bed.
hourislate 5y ago
Bluntly Stated: The Impacts of Lack of Good Sleep. You can sleep for 10 hours and still feel shitty. It's getting that good 5-7 hours of restful sleep that makes the difference. Something about that cerebral fluid washing the brain just leaves you feeling like a new person.
The_rationalist 5y ago
DFHippie 5y ago
I've had sleep troubles all my life but seldom feel tired. I'm hoping this means I just need less sleep. I fear it means early dementia. This keeps me up at night.
m3kw9 5y ago
I find sleeping late way past 12 and sleeping 8 hours vs sleeping early 11am is a huge difference.
bsza 5y ago
> Increased (+33%) risk of dementia which is something you should be terrified of Ah yes, the secret ingredient for a good night's rest. Being terrified.
a-and 5y ago
If there is any meta advice I've learned from developing good sleeping habits it would be "Learn your own nervous system". Anecdotally I've seen varying responses to different lifestyle factors, so experimentation should be part of your plan if you want to optimize your sleep. I've personally found a lot of success with: - Deliberate relaxation - I found the muscle relaxation technique incredibly valuable ( https://www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sleep/fall-asleep-fast ) - Sleep in a cold, dark room - Limited phone time - mindless scrolling is fine if it helps me relax, but not if it amps me up What I haven't found matters for me: - Strenuous exercise - I've found that training late at night (I compete in powerlifting) and going to bed immediately after leads to very deep, restful sleep - Caffeine timing - to an extent timing matters, but daily amount is by far the biggest driver for sleep quality - Meditation - it affected sleep adversely and even though very calm and level, I felt substantially more awake after meditation
wellthisisgreat 5y ago
Seeing "caffeine" after substance abuse/addiction is really an eye-rolling moment. Sure sleeping is important. But coffee = substance abuse? Get a life. On a separate note. 1mg of melatonin does wonders if you help it a bit (don't take it and then stare at the screen). As everyone probably knows by now, the recommended dose is 0.3-1mg so you could get even better results by splitting the 1mg pills, but 1mg works for me. It's surprisingly difficult to get 1mg melatonin pills, so the life-hack there is to buy the kids version. Also heavy curtains and total black-out of the bedroom does wonders. Electric light is a pretty effective sleep disruptor
lai-yin 5y ago
I understand this won't sit well with a lot of people, but reading a chapter or two of the Bible before bed totally resets my mind and helps me fall asleep almost immediately when I am ready. It calls you to a different realm. Especially the historical books like Judges, Samuel, and Kings.
Terr_ 5y ago
> Increased (+33%) risk of dementia which is something you should be terrified of Terrified of dementia, yes. Terrified of a ~2% chance becoming a ~2.6% chance, not quite so much.
- Nbox9 5y ago
  There’s a linear increase of dementia risk as you age. It seems to be not a matter of if you get dementia, but if something else kills you first. [0] https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/76/suppl_5/v2 https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/76/suppl_5/v2
shireboy 5y ago
I’ve had luck with valerian root and melatonin getting me to sleep, but wake up 12-2 am, even with a “slow release” formula.
- Apocryphon 5y ago
  Take heart. This might be all natural. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29886907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29886907
kingcharles 5y ago
I went to jail. One of the things that I didn't expect is how little sleep it is possible to get in some cell blocks. In prisons there are often lots of jobs or programs available, so people have to be able to get up in the mornings, but in pre-trial detention there is often nothing, so some people tend to stay up all night long. And if you want to talk to your buddy, but he is on the other end of the cell block, then you need to scream at the top of your lungs for him to hear you. Especially if many others are trying to talk at once. So you basically get a cacophony of people screaming at each other all night. If your block has a TV and a radio, then those might be on maximum volume right outside your cell too. I would say over eight years I got an average of four hours sleep a night due to these issues. God knows what effect this long-term sleep deprivation has on all these prisoners, but it can't be good for everyone's mental health.
tatrajim 5y ago
Just in case anyone cares, this gracefully aging guy has found a reliable way to refreshing sleep every night for many years: -- Learn some form of qigong meditation (not East Asian myself, but lived there many years). Just before bed, it's a huge help to quality sleep. -- Practice a calorie restricted diet several times a week. On days I eat ~400 kcal., my sleep heart rate dips 5-10%. -- Listen at bed time via earphones or otherwise to audible recorded books, selected for the sonority of the narrator and the subject matter -- not too boring, not too arousing.
- pkoird 5y ago
  I'd like to expand on that large bit. I really used to have elevated heart rates / anxiety while sleeping. I used to get up with a startle and be unable to sleep afterwards. What I found worked for me was crowd noises. I think it provided me, at a subconscious level, the reassurance that I was not alone (thus safe from predators). After I married, the startle basically went away :). Turns out, having a human beside you while sleeping works wonder!
closeparen 5y ago
In high school and college I was in a vicious cycle of insufficient sleep, lethargy during the day, and panicked heroics the night before deadlines. It worked! I got into and out of a selective institution that way. But my life got immeasurably better once I started working. I would put in an honest day’s effort, leave it wherever it was at the end of the day, unwind all evening, and wake up again when I felt like it (hooray for 11am standup). Holy shit. The quality of life improvement was unbelievable. It is incredibly tragic to have wasted those years that way.
sometimeshuman 5y ago
I truly wonder how many people sleep poorly because they ruminate about dysfunctional relationships at night. After many decades of miserable sleep I finally set boundaries with certain family members and long time co-workers. I can practically fall asleep on demand now and sleep through the night. It's beautiful! and so many of my life-long mental health problems, even minor physical issues, are gone. I wish I would have asserted myself decades ago but I kept thinking it's my fault, not theirs, that I am not mentally stronger.
lykahb 5y ago
AKA, impacts of having a baby.
jasfi 5y ago
I've been trying mental math. It seems to work quite well. Unlike reading you don't have to get up or put on a light. As I get more tired I fall back to very easy ones, like the times table.
bubblecheck 5y ago
This is my sixth night being 100% homeless (on the streets with no vehicle, no private place to go). Sleep for the past five nights has ranged from non-existent to a few nodding hours in long sleeves laying down in various public places. Compared to a week ago, I finally started to notice cognitive decline today. My words don't come out as smoothly, and I have gaps in thoughts. Frankly, it's nothing like it was seven years ago after a bad break-up. That time, I got maybe 2-7 hours of sleep a week for a solid two months or so. It is an awful feeling being wide awake, unable to sleep at all, yet: dead tired, suicidal in a persistent 24hr a day drawing-towards-death sense, utterly afraid and unable to actually follow through. It's odd to me that my situation then was far, far better than it is now. Sleep these past five homeless evenings with a ruined life -- even missing a few nights and only catching a few hours these past few -- are far better than those restless post-breakup nights seven years ago. My life fell apart since seven years ago in numerous ways. Programming and participation in technology, generally, for me is completely dead and has been for years now. Perhaps the extended sleep deprivation removed any remaining desire to live. I've certainly been dead inside since then, moreso than in the past. Still unable to finish suicide. The desire doesn't go away, ever. The terrifying fear of death, however, seems unlikely to ever dissipate, so actually completing suicide seems increasingly unlikely as the decades pass. This has been an ongoing desire since grade school. I am still awaiting the big sleep. It can't come soon enough.
- bubblecheck 5y ago
  Also, just wanted to add a point. I find human culture to be garbage, and have found it to be garbage ever since experiencing an ongoing pattern of abuse as a child. I experienced bullying and abuse as an adult as well: at work, hell, even on hn in past accounts. Whether there are good people is irrelevant. There are shitty people everywhere. One can try to ignore them, but they are still part of this species. Primitive, babbling apes. Again, death cannot come soon enough. I pray to God to please kill me in my sleep tonight. A prayer that has yet to be answered.
- modo_mario 5y ago
  I have seriously noticed the effects of a lack of sleep on depression. Often depression kept me sleepness and vice versa. Please. Find a way to find proper sleep somewhere for a good few days. Force it upon yourself to catch up on it. Even if you're seeing it all as just you being on your way out then consider there's no point in waiting for it in misery.
drec 5y ago
Hi, I recently launched an app to help you get better sleep through cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia (CBT-i), which is the first line of treatment recommended by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. The program is designed in collaboration with experts from Harvard Medical school. We are running a promotion at the moment, and lifetime access cost only $19.99 (with a 90 day money back guarantee, no questions ask). Check us out at https://slumber.one/offer https://slumber.one/offer
stuffuru 5y ago
My arch nemesis when it comes to sleep is obstructive sleep apnea. I have some soft tissue redundancies (long uvula and turbinate hypertrophy) as well as skeletal deficiencies (recessed jaw and narrow nasal cavity), and I had to have multiple surgeries in addition to PAP therapy to get reasonable (but not great) sleep. When I first started having unrefreshing sleep a couple of years ago, I tried everything under the sun when it comes to sleep hygiene (which helped a bit), but there comes a point when you really need medical interventions.
mweibel 5y ago
I never really had issues with lack of sleep until I became father 1.5 years ago. Child has issues with sleep since the start and while it recently got a bit better, in those 1.5 years I can count the number of times I got 8 hours uninterrupted sleep on one, maybe two hands. On the worst days I could eat double my normal food intake and was still hungry. Working and concentration is quite hard, more coffee intake is the case. Complex thoughts are increasingly difficult (e.g. improving software architecture takes much more time than I was used to). I do wonder what happens when sleep is back to normal. Are some effects staying or will eventually everything go back to how it used to be before?
- ALittleLight 5y ago
  One major change I experienced on becoming a father is instantly respecting every parent MUCH more than I previously had.
- sharmi 5y ago
  >I do wonder what happens when sleep is back to normal. Are some effects staying or will eventually everything go back to how it used to be before? We had twins and sleep was incredibly hard for more than 2years. It took me a few more years to realize that not only was my sleep disturbed, my whole sleep hygiene was messed up and I had picked up several detrimental habits (e.g Late night was the only time I had to myself with no disturbances. I started to stay awake increasingly late into the night). I almost had to relearn how to sleep all over again. So, yes, It does get better. You may need to put some effort to reclaim it.
tzekid 5y ago
Most of the bad side effects don't show up ( for me at least ) in the first day of no, or next to no sleep. Against the long-term effects ( and brain / nervous system in general ) I do a 1-month therapy every year of cerebrolysin ( peptide that helps neuro-regeneration ). I've found that if I can function pretty well if I do a 8 - 9h of sleep every other day, too. It's especially great, because I've got me-time for a whole night, while everybody's asleep. Anybody else tried the "sleep well every other day" thing?
bambax 5y ago
> which is something you should be terrified of The use of that word "terrified" in American journalism is mildly annoying, and baffling to me (Slate is also a big culprit). What's with this? If someone threatens me with a deadly weapon I may get terrified (IDK, never happened yet), but I'm not "terrified" of any future event regarding society, the world, or my life. Terror is clear and present danger; it's unclear to me how any hypothetical event placed in the future could ever induce terror today.
deleted 5y ago
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qwerty456127 5y ago
Also substantial relief of anxiety and ADHD. Much easier to approach any kind of task and do it happily without distracting or procrastinating.
begueradj 5y ago
There is a good ans scientific literature about this subject
hackeraccount 5y ago
I've seen people in this thread saying the opposite but for me having a kid has been the key to a good nights sleep. That kid just makes me feel tired all over.
thunkshift1 5y ago
Why is this published on github? Is it the cool new publishing platform for everything now

277 points by belkarx 5y ago

Melatonic 5y ago

I tried to finish the original article but I was just too tired...

dvh 5y ago

Is 8h sleep from 22:00 to 6:00 qualitatively equivalent to 8h sleep from 00:00 to 8:00?

jimt1234 5y ago
This is a question I've had for years: Does time of day matter for sleep? If I go to sleep on a "normal" schedule (wake up, start day around 7am), I need 8 hours. However, I can totally survive, and even thrive, with just 5-ish hours of sleep, if I can wake up around 11am, going to sleep just before dawn. Not a doctor, so I don't know the answer. My assumption is that it depends on the person. I'm a night-person, so naturally the waking-at-11am schedule works best for me. But staying awake until 5:30am is unthinkable for most morning people.
belkarx 5y ago
I believe if you adjust your circadian rhythm accordingly, and don't face interference from external conditions (sunlight) they are equivalent.
bot41 5y ago
For me, I have noted that it is not. Even after long periods of going to sleep at later times. I have always found earlier to bed and earlier to rise is much better. My problem is I am never tired or motivated to go to bed before 00:00 or 01:00. I don't really get sleepy or yawny. I really only go to bed because it's getting to silly o'clock.
jugg1es 5y ago
There are multiple studies that show that the time that you sleep does matter. There is a higher risk of diabetes and obesity for people who sleep during the day and are awake at night. I'm not saying this to be a buzz kill, I really wish it wasn't true. Anecdotally, I used to keep very, very late hours and sleep a lot of the day - and I did this for years. I thought I was fine. Once I established a normal day/night cycle (kids and wife do that to you), I realized that I had been grumpy most of the time and not particularly happy. Soon after establishing a more normal rhythm, I also lost a considerable amount of weight (about 15lbs).
- dathinab 5y ago
  It's less the time, and more how it interacts with the rest of your live. Like the bodies instinct related to light amount and how you allow your body to sleep getting out of sync. Or how day time tends to be more noisy and as such is more likely to disrupt your sleep. Or how meeting people fits less into your sleep cycle. Or how most people are not night active all the time, but switch between periods of night shifts and e.g. not being night active on your free days (because you e.g. can't go to the SPA at 2am). Or how bright lights, even such advertised as daylight lights, often do not replace day light properly. Etc. So, while the time doesn't matter directly in practice having a "off" cycle is much much more likely to affect your life implicitly in negative ways then a more day aligned cycle.
  - jugg1es 5y ago
    Yes, obviously it is about the day/night cycle and not about absolute time because people on the other side of the planet are just fine. But while the absolute time may not matter, the time you are awake during the day/night cycle does matter. You can try to tell yourself you can live outside this day/night cycle, but we just didn't evolve that way.
dathinab 5y ago
The time "numbers" do not matter but: - light availability matters, like how much lite you are exposed to in the morning, during the day and in the evening. - how it affects other parts of your live (e.g. how reliable you can keep the rhythm) - the body has a natural tendency to associate low, warmer light with "time to slowly go to bed", how likely are you to mess that up? - how does it fit in with fitness and food? I personally have a supper messed up sleep cycle. Through one think I know reliable is that it's hard for me to stand up at any time before 1-2h after daylight (not twilight), which living in the northern hemisphere means in winter I have a hard time standing up before 9-11am. Which messes with food intake and daily activities. At the same time it means that there is quite a long time in the evening with a constant not to bright light (room light), which messes with my body knowing when it's time to sleep. But having bight (indirect) "neutral" or "daylight" light around my work desk, "warm" light in my living room area and reducing it over time before going to sleep does help a bit. Through it also creates a light cycle detached from daylight ... which can be a problem, too. EDIT: Anyway: You are _much_ more likely to have subtle negative effects in your live implicitly caused by a less day aligned sleep cycle then you are with a day aligned sleep cycle. The more "off" your cycle is the more likely it will implicitly cause negative health effects, and the harder it gets to offset them.

WilTimSon 5y ago

I'm not sure how much this will do to change anyone. Sure, it's bluntly stated but, well, most people realize quite well that lack of sleep is awful and dangerous. People don't usually do it because they want to do it. Long hours at work, deadlines, stress, occasional bout of Netflix addiction. Out of all of those, there's only one that's easy to resolve and I'd wager that Netflix isn't usually the biggest contributor to chronic lack of sleep.

cassianoleal 5y ago
Also being a night person on a day people's world.
- WilTimSon 5y ago
  Yup. Even being a day person and maintaining a solid schedule is hard. Oh, you'd like to go to bed on time but the two/three friends you still retain as an adult want to have a drink because today's the only day of the week they're free. And then tomorrow you want to go to sleep early but it's cleaning day and you need to do it cause then it'll be a tough day at work and so on, forever and ever.
brimble 5y ago
Imagine a medieval king who decided their castle should be lit up like day at nighttime, hundreds of candles in mirror-walled rooms, 365 days a year, and also that the entire castle save only the bed chamber would host the finest entertainers and all the most interesting friends and strangers in the world, party games and amusements in a hundred palace rooms, and a mage who could show the king any wonder of the world in his crystal ball, and a bazaar with the finest goods on display, the best academics, et c., et c., basically on tap, and this wild best-the-world's-ever-seen carnival would never. Close. So that all the king must do is open his bed chamber door, any hour, any day, to be enthusiastically welcomed into a veritable (and sometimes literal) orgy of entertainment. 24. 7. Year-round. Think that king might have a rather disrupted sleep schedule? It seems obviously insane to live like that, no? Instant reaction is "my god, why would you do that", right? Consider that a totally ordinary middle class house in the West is arguably worse than that. No wonder everyone "can't" sleep or "is just a night owl" (sure, some may actually be, not saying zero people are). Frankly it's a miracle we get anydamnthing done, and sleep at all. I'd encourage everyone to try candle-only lighting after sundown (or maybe extremely dim candle-temp electric lighting, though if you're just trying it briefly consider the candles, they're a bad idea for a bunch of reasons long-term but fine for a few days—you'd be surprised how little you need, I found two beeswax tapers were the minimum to read by without discomfort, but my eyes are still young-ish), no electric devices whatsoever (there's actually still a ton you can do—card games, board games, play music, read, draw, write, et c.), no whole-room lighting, just for a week or so. See if you're still a "night person" by day 7. [EDIT] Bonus round on the thought experiment at the top: imagine the king is, despite this questionable decision, actually fairly responsible and leaves the castle to go run the kingdom during the day, most days, retiring to this ultra-carnival-home only late in the day. You'll expect that to go even worse as far as sleep is concerned, right?

donkarma 5y ago

preaching to the choir, everyone wants sleep

Afton 5y ago
Yeah, this is like "people who are overweight: lose weight". Well gee I never thought of that before, I guess I'll go right out and do it. I certainly won't continue lying awake between 3-5am 2-4 times a week now that I know it's important. /s
- fleddr 5y ago
  There's no need to be cynical. Out of all the health problems one might have, improving sleep is the easiest to fix with the biggest immediate benefits. Further, many issues people claim to have with sleep are self-inflicted, excuses, or solvable. When you improve your sleep, you're not missing out on pleasures in a way a strict diet may rob you of the goodies in life. You don't sacrifice anything with better sleep.
  - acuozzo 5y ago
    > Out of all the health problems one might have, improving sleep is the easiest to fix … when the sleep problem is internal. Dependents with their own sleep problems are not often dealt with easily.
  - Apocryphon 5y ago
    > improving sleep is the easiest to fix with the biggest immediate benefit Tell it to all the insomniacs.
gensym 5y ago
Is this true now? I hope so. When I started my career 20 years ago, it was common for people to take pride in how little they slept. Sleeping 8 hours/day was treated as a weakness. I don't hear such silliness so much now, but it was unclear whether that's because times have changed or because I now spend my time with wiser people.

jsrcout 5y ago

I've had terrible sleep issues forever. Finally got my sleep apnea and insomnia sorted out some years back (CPAP and melatonin+magnesium took care of it for me) and the difference is just incredible. I mean I would worry on a daily basis that I was going to black out at work and hit my head on my desk. (While still putting out decent work most of the time - not completely sure how). I no longer take multi-hour naps several evenings a week after work. I can't overstate the difference it's made in my life. Anyway, if you suffer from sleep issues, I urge you to take it seriously and do anything in your power to mitigate them.

m463 5y ago
Another way of saying this is is that time in bed is not equal to time spent sleeping. sleep hygiene is important. I got a CPAP and it really helped. Another overlooked one is sleeping in a cold room.

deleted 5y ago

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thret 5y ago

The end of your life is not guaranteed. Your life may be shortened any number of ways unrelated to how much sleep you have had. Let's say you live to be 90, sleeping 8 hours a day. That's 60 years of actual living time, 20 of which occur between ages 60 and 90. If you sleep 4 hours a day and live to be 90, that's 75 years awake with those extra 15 years spread over your entire life - not just the last third which is likely to be less enjoyable and productive.

belkarx 5y ago
I see your point, however your life may be worse on average (health and mental state) because of the lower amount of sleep.

mikenew 5y ago

I've struggled with sleep for as long as I can remember. I have improved it considerably in the past year (still not perfect). Out of the dozens upon dozens of things I've tried, here's what I think made the most difference, in order of importance. 1. Very consistent bedtime and wake up time. +/- 30 minutes, but ideally less. Obviously if you struggle with sleep you can't count on falling asleep at the same time, but work at it. 2. Expose yourself to bright, outdoor light every morning. 3. Keep the lights as dim as you can tolerate for ~2 hours before bed. Blue light is technically worse than red, but total light is way more important. 4. Anything you do for ~1 hour before bed should be very passive. For me, reading is good, very particular kinds of TV is okay (can't be too stimulating), or something along those lines. Anything that requires decision making, social interaction, things that get you excited and so on are completely out. 5. Breathe through your nose. It can be hard at first but it gets easier over time. If your nose is constricted you can exhale all your air, hold your breath until you feel the urge to breathe, and then draw in a big breath through your nose. It will open up your nasal passages. Do it a couple times if you need to. If you have sleep apnea that you can't fix that way get a CPAP. 6. Meditation. And it's not really that doing 10 minutes of meditation during the day means you'll magically sleep better; it's more that you learn how to divert the noisy thoughts and focus on something very simple to help you relax at night. Also, sleep is a temporal problem. If you do everything perfectly for one day your probability of sleeping better at night will go up by some relatively small percentage. Which is discouraging. But if you really work at it for a month it will get significantly better. And by the same token, if you're in a good state, one or two days of disrupted sleep don't cause all that much damage. EDIT: 7. Forgot to mention this one: keep the room very cold. Matthew Walker (the guy who wrote Why We Sleep, which is a great book) recommends 65F.

clumsysmurf 5y ago
I'd also add 8. Don't eat within 2 hours of sleep (at least, maybe more). 9. Exercise earlier in the day, rather than later
fleddr 5y ago
Can't agree on reading. It's cognitively stimulating, assuming you read something that interests you. I don't know about you, but I can't just close the book and forget about it.

uoaei 5y ago

My sleep problem is not that I can't fall asleep when in bed, it's that I can't tell myself to go to the bed to sleep. I think it's some kind of chronic FOMO / productivity bug, but obviously it results in lowered productivity overall because of my effectiveness when fatigued. Has anyone else addressed this issue in their own lives or know some resources tailored to this problem to learn how to better approach bedtime?

deleted 5y ago
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fleddr 5y ago
I have the same problem. I sleep within 5 minutes but I won't go to sleep. I stay up. I may waste 2 or 3 extra hours doing absolutely nothing productive instead of just going to sleep. My positive interpretation is that it's introvert me. I need significant alone time and this is the only time slot where I'm not constantly bothered or interrupted. The negative interpretation is that it's plain addiction. To distractions. News. Updates. Whatever. Whatever it is, I can't solve it. I need a kick in the butt. Somebody to force me to bed.
munificent 5y ago
Yeah, I get stuck in that loop. The trick that helps is to realize that I will get more done tomorrow if I go right the fuck to sleep tonight.
darwingr 5y ago
I have this too. Someone had a good list of things to be doing to optimize your environment. They definitely help. I would add: 1. putting on pyjamas at a certain time every day (e.g. 9:30 pm). 2. not eating anything after 8-9 pm, only drinking water. 3. have other activities like reading to do in the 1-2 hours before bed. 4. no stimulants in the afternoon. No chocolate in the evening. (easy to ignore but makes a big difference). The biggest psychological bad-habit I had to get over was ignoring my body/mind when I felt tired. If that means falling asleep in weird places, slightly earlier than expected or when there was still something I felt I needed to do, then just accept defeat for that day and let sleep take you over. Allowing my ego to accept defeat at the end of every day, to let sleep be the victor, that is the best way I can frame it for myself. In the end we're creatures that need sleep and to deny my own biology in that regard will lead to my own undoing.

holoduke 5y ago

For me the biggest change in sleep came when I started exercising on a daily base. I started boxing and fitness couple of years back . I sleep 9 hours everyday. Never feel tired during the day, except when I go to bed. Normally takes about 5 minutes to fall asleep. Whereas it used to be hours sometimes when I was younger.

friedman23 5y ago

As someone that has recently perfected their sleep I'll share my approach for anyone willing to try. 1. Always go to sleep within 30 minutes of a specific time every single day. If this ever starts to drift, take a pill of 100 micrograms of melatonin 3 hours before you intend to sleep to get back on track. 2. Get lights that turn on and off via a smartphone app. Set them to turn on 30 minutes before you intend to wakeup. No alarm. 3. Before sleeping supplement magnesium (most americans are deficient). I wake up with 0 grogginess every morning. It's amazing.

ssklash 5y ago
Did you ever used to wake up groggy? I feel like that's been a constant for me since forever.
- friedman23 5y ago
  Yes, and I used to feel tired all day. I didn't include this in my original list but eating at the same specified time every day also helps with tiredness and keeping a sleep schedule.

areichert 5y ago

I've struggled with sleep for as long as I can remember, but my issue isn't falling asleep -- it's staying asleep throughout the night. I usually sleep ok from 12am-5am, but after that, I wake up and fall back asleep every ~30 mins or so til I get up around 8. Does anyone else have this issue? Curious if there are any good solutions...

mettamage 5y ago
IMO this is the toughest thing to solve. What somewhat works for me: * My GF cuddling me. I just think about her, and sleep and nothing else, it's a bit pavlov like. I'm fairly sure I get a lot of "feel good" chemicals when this happens. * Sounds silly but... build a buffer for 12 hours, and stay in bed for longer until you properly fall asleep again. * If I wake up after 4 hours of sleep and really need the sleep, I do 0.3mg melatonin. Not ideal, but it does the trick. * Meditation: sometimes (20% of the time) it nudges me to sleep. In all cases, it leaves me a bit more well-rested than if I'd not meditate. * 0.6mg melatonin + CBD at the beginning of the night. I'm not a fan of this solution. I find 0.6mg a bit much, but if I need a blunt tool, this would be it.
- munificent 5y ago
  This is really great advice. I'm going to give this a try tonight. Which side of your girlfriend would you prefer I take?
  - mettamage 5y ago
    Hahaha, whichever side makes you fall asleep :')
lr4444lr 5y ago
You might be phototropic, which is not a bad thing. If you go to bed at 10 and wakeup at 5, congrats. That's your issue, and you should probably listen to your body. If you go to bed at 10 and wake up at 3, maybe make a lifestyle change.
m3kw9 5y ago

bladley 5y ago

My problem is that I get too much sleep and it's very difficult for me to wake up if there's no meeting scheduled that morning for my flexible remote job or if there's no social pressure to get up. I'll happily sleep 12-14 hours if you let me. I've been this way since I was a teenager, and I'm 25 now. I know this sounds like I'm complaining about a luxury, and lack of sleep is definitely worse, but it's always made me feel like I'm wasting my days sleeping and missing out on life to a degree.

vasco 5y ago
Most of the ones awake wish they were sleeping an extra 2 hours, you enjoy it!
coderenegade 5y ago
Get a blood test. I was like this in my early twenties, turns out I'd had two strains of glandular fever.
munificent 5y ago
I was like that into my 20s. Now in my 40s, I'm lucky to get nine hours. Enjoy it while it lasts and don't worry about it too much. (But set an alarm if it's impacting work.)
csdvrx 5y ago
I'm just like you. Healthy, but I sleep a lot. 10h is ok, but 12h is my sweetspot. And before people ask, I love starting my day with a Monster (caffeine + taurine + ...) I just put that on genetic variability. Stop the FOMO on life: mornings are no better than afternoons :)
maximus-decimus 5y ago
Ever got a sleep test? You might have some health condition like sleep apnea.

jvanderbot 5y ago

How long do I have to lose sleep for permanent effects? My newborn children would like to know their dad isn't going to suffer these problems.

llIIllIIllIIl 5y ago
Congratulations! Your newborn has a distinct smell at the back of their head. You can smell it when you’re feeling tired and it will give you energy compared to a shot of espresso. Goes away around 6-7 months. Fully empirical knowledge, I cannot explain the science behind it.
- dashwehacct 5y ago
  Can you provide some resources? I’m genuinely interested and search results are unyielding.

d--b 5y ago

Bluntly Stated: FUCK. YOU. I have tried everything there is. - lost 20 pounds - check - stopped smoking, alcohol, coffee - check - more sport - check - no screen - check - melatonin - check - light therapy - check - hypnosis - check - phytotherapy - check - accupuncture - check - that thing in your mouth - check - not working for a while - check You think I don't know being tired makes me an asshole? Well rejoice, apparently I'm going to die early.

yasp 5y ago
Have you had your vitamin d levels checked? Worth checking out what Dr. Stasha Gominak has written on the subject.
- lloydatkinson 5y ago
  And iron
  - codyb 5y ago
    Iron was huge for me. I’m a blood donor. Last time I went I couldn’t sleep for a week until I started cramming chicken and spinach down my maw like there was no tomorrow. Got rid of all the issues I was having. B vitamins are another big one, especially if you drink sometimes.
  - belkarx 5y ago
    +1 on iron. Iron deficiency has surprisingly widespread effects.
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lokl 5y ago
If you haven't done so, try removing dust mites or other potential allergens from your bedroom.

smashem 5y ago

Tangentially, anyone tried dry sauna therapy sessions at night before bed? It's helped me tremendously with sleep and more. It's a bit considered a luxury, but maybe you can find a gym or spa membership that's low cost.

frob 5y ago
I installed an IR sauna a few months back. I use it almost daily. Sleep has been fantastic since then and I recover from workouts much more quickly. Stretching is also much easier in it and I've easily increased my bent-over stretch by 3 inches since I started focusing on it.

SquibblesRedux 5y ago

Perhaps we should praise the benefits of naps. [0] - Increased alertness - Attitude adjustment - A creative mindset - Cash saver (because the cost of drugs adds up) [0] https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-lifestyle/sleep/benefits-of-napping https://www.heart.org/en/healthy-living/healthy-lifestyle/sl...

bigwindow1 5y ago
This is one of my favourite things about working from home. I can take a power nap in the afternoon and be so much more productive when I wake up!

nkozyra 5y ago

I did sleep studies, medicines (including modafinil which worked but had scary sides), natural supplements (which helped but tended to result in lesser quality sleep). In the end I needed to make sleep my number one priority and I focused on it for several months. I slowly built up what worked for me, but likely won't work for you. A lot of being in bed at 10 staring at a dark ceiling for 3+ hours. Getting into meditation (in the am, not evening), exercising but never after noon and not eating after 6. Alcohol in any amount won't prevent my sleep but will vastly deteriorate the quality. It took tons of trial and error to do what medical professionals couldn't help with. My conclusion is sleep is complicated and highly individual. You need to identify the things that wreck your sleep and pick them off with serious attention to them.

joegahona 5y ago
Isn't modafinil a stimulant? A coworker gave me some and I was super-productive at work.
- 0xcde4c3db 5y ago
  > Isn't modafinil a stimulant? It's... stimulant-ish? Nobody seems to know exactly how it works.
  - pkoird 5y ago
    Can you even get that without a prescription?
    - thamer 5y ago
      The answer is "yes"… from online pharmacies that ship it from India. Whether you get the real product or a counterfeit version is anyone's guess.
      - unmole 5y ago
        It seems to legally retail at 0.25 USD per pill: https://www.1mg.com/drugs/modalert-100-tablet-19037 https://www.1mg.com/drugs/modalert-100-tablet-19037 I assume online pharmacies sell at a heavy markup. It hardly seems like counterfeiting would be worth the effort.

tempnow987 5y ago

I've used books on tape (audible) with a 30 minute sleep timer. I've been falling asleep within minutes. After a week or two of listening to the same 30 seconds to a minute, I switch books, because I start to literally dread starting these things up. Perhaps the books are just too boring.

adamredwoods 5y ago

I'm a light sleeper, so noise is a critical concern for me in getting good sleep. My partner is a heavy snorer, and sometimes our son wakes me up to get water (because I'm a light sleeper and get up quicker). I remedied this by sleeping in a separate bed and that helped get some solid sleep. My partner was unhappy with this less affectionate arrangement, but solid sleep is precious! To top it off, our neighbors have loud cars they like to rev at odd hours in the night. It can be seriously bothersome, and earplugs are needed. We've complained, but they are apathetic. All this prep to get some solid sleep!

echelon 5y ago

I've had trouble with sleep since I was a kid. - I'm a night owl. The rest of the world runs on mornings, and I hate it. (Working with west coast / remote has made this much easier. Seldom any 10 AM meetings.) - Work / life balance is impossible if you're trying to do anything substantial outside of work. You have to find time to get it done, and losing sleep is the easiest thing to do.

uejfiweun 5y ago
+1, I also work a remote west coast job from the east coast. I haven't set an alarm since 2020 (apart from a few early flights). It's been great.

op00to 5y ago

I have kids. I am just going to be sleep deprived so my children don’t feel abandoned when they can’t sleep like I did. I’d rather have well adjusted kids than be well rested.

alexpotato 5y ago
I always love reading the "productivity hacks" of people without kids and there is always an item which is basically: - go to bed and wake up at the same time and try to get 8 straight hours. Or if not, take a nap etc. Good luck with that if you have multiple children under 5
- civilized 5y ago
  Most advice in techworld begins with an implicit "don't have kids". Children don't and shouldn't exist.
- maximus-decimus 5y ago
  My favorite is the book How To Live Your Life In 24 Hours which was written around 1920 I think. It doesn't technically imply you don't have kids... more that your wife will take care of literally all the work at home. Don't have time in the morning? Tell your wife to fill the kettle and put matches beside it so you can more easily prepare your tea when you wake up!
  - op00to 5y ago
    That’s genius! Why didn’t I think to ask my wife to leave the matches out! Ha ha.

perardi 5y ago

Well…duh, lack of sleep is bad. It’s not like I had 10 years of insomnia by choice. And I’d gather most people, besides the tiny-but-vocal crowd talking about sleep hacking† and grinding and growth hacking or whatever, are desperate for more sleep. My potentially unpopular opinion: if you have long-term sleep issues that aren’t resolved by lifestyle changes and sleep hygiene, go to a doctor. I had years and years of poor sleep, and I finally found help that way. †modafinil is great, though.

FabHK 5y ago

Is this scientific consensus? I remember the Matthew Walker book (Why We Sleep) was heavily criticised. For example this article + discussion: https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://guzey.com/books/why-we-sleep/ https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26684519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26684519 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21546850 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22419958 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=22419958

OzyM 5y ago
My thoughts exactly. My overall takeaway from sleep research is that although there are some health risks with undersleeping, there are (possibly greater) health risks with oversleeping, plus the prevalence of sleep deprivation is greatly overestimated.
dentalperson 5y ago
These points and the Guzey essay were discussed in depth in Science Fictions by Stuart Ritchie, which features examples of negligence and fraud in science. Having read and enjoyed the message in Why We Sleep, my first reaction before reading based on the length of the essay was that the motivation was axe-grindy, but the further I read the more it made sense and the more egregious Walker's claims seemed. The lack of a response from Walker is another serious concern (especially after Andrew Gelman highlights this). It seems that he is trying to avoid a Streisand Effect by ignoring it completely. If that is the case, Walker's strategy seems to be working because on the comments on new threads like this, many mention mention Walker but seem unaware of the criticisms.
- yolo69420 5y ago
  Doesn't he have a response on his website? I swear I read it at some point
  - FabHK 5y ago
    Oh, right, thank you and GP for reminding me, there was more discussion of this: Here Gelman's pieces (at stat modeling): https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/11/18/is-matthew-walkers-why-we-sleep-riddled-with-scientific-and-factual-errors/ https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/11/18/is-matthew... https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/12/27/why-we-sleep-data-manipulation-a-smoking-gun/ https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/12/27/why-we-sle... (<- more links in this one) Quote from Gelman: > We’ve left “super-important researcher too busy to respond to picky comments” territory and left “well-intentioned but sloppy researcher can’t keep track of citations” territory and entered “research misconduct” territory. This may be a response by Walker to criticism: https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-responses-to-questions-from-readers/ https://sleepdiplomat.wordpress.com/2019/12/19/why-we-sleep-... Here's a reddit discussion where Guzey responds to that response and raises further points: https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/ekdbo2/matthew_walker_responds_to_guzey_why_we_sleep/ https://old.reddit.com/r/slatestarcodex/comments/ekdbo2/matt...

frob 5y ago

For me, the best thing to induce a good night of sleep is exercise. It can be at any time of the day. Some of my best night have been after I finished an hour-long heavy weight workout 45 minutes before going to bed.

hourislate 5y ago

Bluntly Stated: The Impacts of Lack of Good Sleep. You can sleep for 10 hours and still feel shitty. It's getting that good 5-7 hours of restful sleep that makes the difference. Something about that cerebral fluid washing the brain just leaves you feeling like a new person.

The_rationalist 5y ago

DFHippie 5y ago

I've had sleep troubles all my life but seldom feel tired. I'm hoping this means I just need less sleep. I fear it means early dementia. This keeps me up at night.

m3kw9 5y ago

I find sleeping late way past 12 and sleeping 8 hours vs sleeping early 11am is a huge difference.

bsza 5y ago

> Increased (+33%) risk of dementia which is something you should be terrified of Ah yes, the secret ingredient for a good night's rest. Being terrified.

a-and 5y ago

If there is any meta advice I've learned from developing good sleeping habits it would be "Learn your own nervous system". Anecdotally I've seen varying responses to different lifestyle factors, so experimentation should be part of your plan if you want to optimize your sleep. I've personally found a lot of success with: - Deliberate relaxation - I found the muscle relaxation technique incredibly valuable ( https://www.healthline.com/health/healthy-sleep/fall-asleep-fast ) - Sleep in a cold, dark room - Limited phone time - mindless scrolling is fine if it helps me relax, but not if it amps me up What I haven't found matters for me: - Strenuous exercise - I've found that training late at night (I compete in powerlifting) and going to bed immediately after leads to very deep, restful sleep - Caffeine timing - to an extent timing matters, but daily amount is by far the biggest driver for sleep quality - Meditation - it affected sleep adversely and even though very calm and level, I felt substantially more awake after meditation

wellthisisgreat 5y ago

Seeing "caffeine" after substance abuse/addiction is really an eye-rolling moment. Sure sleeping is important. But coffee = substance abuse? Get a life. On a separate note. 1mg of melatonin does wonders if you help it a bit (don't take it and then stare at the screen). As everyone probably knows by now, the recommended dose is 0.3-1mg so you could get even better results by splitting the 1mg pills, but 1mg works for me. It's surprisingly difficult to get 1mg melatonin pills, so the life-hack there is to buy the kids version. Also heavy curtains and total black-out of the bedroom does wonders. Electric light is a pretty effective sleep disruptor

lai-yin 5y ago

I understand this won't sit well with a lot of people, but reading a chapter or two of the Bible before bed totally resets my mind and helps me fall asleep almost immediately when I am ready. It calls you to a different realm. Especially the historical books like Judges, Samuel, and Kings.

Terr_ 5y ago

> Increased (+33%) risk of dementia which is something you should be terrified of Terrified of dementia, yes. Terrified of a ~2% chance becoming a ~2.6% chance, not quite so much.

Nbox9 5y ago
There’s a linear increase of dementia risk as you age. It seems to be not a matter of if you get dementia, but if something else kills you first. [0] https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/76/suppl_5/v2 https://jnnp.bmj.com/content/76/suppl_5/v2

shireboy 5y ago

I’ve had luck with valerian root and melatonin getting me to sleep, but wake up 12-2 am, even with a “slow release” formula.

Apocryphon 5y ago
Take heart. This might be all natural. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29886907 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29886907

kingcharles 5y ago

I went to jail. One of the things that I didn't expect is how little sleep it is possible to get in some cell blocks. In prisons there are often lots of jobs or programs available, so people have to be able to get up in the mornings, but in pre-trial detention there is often nothing, so some people tend to stay up all night long. And if you want to talk to your buddy, but he is on the other end of the cell block, then you need to scream at the top of your lungs for him to hear you. Especially if many others are trying to talk at once. So you basically get a cacophony of people screaming at each other all night. If your block has a TV and a radio, then those might be on maximum volume right outside your cell too. I would say over eight years I got an average of four hours sleep a night due to these issues. God knows what effect this long-term sleep deprivation has on all these prisoners, but it can't be good for everyone's mental health.

tatrajim 5y ago

Just in case anyone cares, this gracefully aging guy has found a reliable way to refreshing sleep every night for many years: -- Learn some form of qigong meditation (not East Asian myself, but lived there many years). Just before bed, it's a huge help to quality sleep. -- Practice a calorie restricted diet several times a week. On days I eat ~400 kcal., my sleep heart rate dips 5-10%. -- Listen at bed time via earphones or otherwise to audible recorded books, selected for the sonority of the narrator and the subject matter -- not too boring, not too arousing.

pkoird 5y ago
I'd like to expand on that large bit. I really used to have elevated heart rates / anxiety while sleeping. I used to get up with a startle and be unable to sleep afterwards. What I found worked for me was crowd noises. I think it provided me, at a subconscious level, the reassurance that I was not alone (thus safe from predators). After I married, the startle basically went away :). Turns out, having a human beside you while sleeping works wonder!

closeparen 5y ago

In high school and college I was in a vicious cycle of insufficient sleep, lethargy during the day, and panicked heroics the night before deadlines. It worked! I got into and out of a selective institution that way. But my life got immeasurably better once I started working. I would put in an honest day’s effort, leave it wherever it was at the end of the day, unwind all evening, and wake up again when I felt like it (hooray for 11am standup). Holy shit. The quality of life improvement was unbelievable. It is incredibly tragic to have wasted those years that way.

sometimeshuman 5y ago

I truly wonder how many people sleep poorly because they ruminate about dysfunctional relationships at night. After many decades of miserable sleep I finally set boundaries with certain family members and long time co-workers. I can practically fall asleep on demand now and sleep through the night. It's beautiful! and so many of my life-long mental health problems, even minor physical issues, are gone. I wish I would have asserted myself decades ago but I kept thinking it's my fault, not theirs, that I am not mentally stronger.

lykahb 5y ago

AKA, impacts of having a baby.

jasfi 5y ago

I've been trying mental math. It seems to work quite well. Unlike reading you don't have to get up or put on a light. As I get more tired I fall back to very easy ones, like the times table.

bubblecheck 5y ago

This is my sixth night being 100% homeless (on the streets with no vehicle, no private place to go). Sleep for the past five nights has ranged from non-existent to a few nodding hours in long sleeves laying down in various public places. Compared to a week ago, I finally started to notice cognitive decline today. My words don't come out as smoothly, and I have gaps in thoughts. Frankly, it's nothing like it was seven years ago after a bad break-up. That time, I got maybe 2-7 hours of sleep a week for a solid two months or so. It is an awful feeling being wide awake, unable to sleep at all, yet: dead tired, suicidal in a persistent 24hr a day drawing-towards-death sense, utterly afraid and unable to actually follow through. It's odd to me that my situation then was far, far better than it is now. Sleep these past five homeless evenings with a ruined life -- even missing a few nights and only catching a few hours these past few -- are far better than those restless post-breakup nights seven years ago. My life fell apart since seven years ago in numerous ways. Programming and participation in technology, generally, for me is completely dead and has been for years now. Perhaps the extended sleep deprivation removed any remaining desire to live. I've certainly been dead inside since then, moreso than in the past. Still unable to finish suicide. The desire doesn't go away, ever. The terrifying fear of death, however, seems unlikely to ever dissipate, so actually completing suicide seems increasingly unlikely as the decades pass. This has been an ongoing desire since grade school. I am still awaiting the big sleep. It can't come soon enough.

bubblecheck 5y ago
Also, just wanted to add a point. I find human culture to be garbage, and have found it to be garbage ever since experiencing an ongoing pattern of abuse as a child. I experienced bullying and abuse as an adult as well: at work, hell, even on hn in past accounts. Whether there are good people is irrelevant. There are shitty people everywhere. One can try to ignore them, but they are still part of this species. Primitive, babbling apes. Again, death cannot come soon enough. I pray to God to please kill me in my sleep tonight. A prayer that has yet to be answered.
modo_mario 5y ago
I have seriously noticed the effects of a lack of sleep on depression. Often depression kept me sleepness and vice versa. Please. Find a way to find proper sleep somewhere for a good few days. Force it upon yourself to catch up on it. Even if you're seeing it all as just you being on your way out then consider there's no point in waiting for it in misery.

drec 5y ago

Hi, I recently launched an app to help you get better sleep through cognitive behavioural therapy for insomnia (CBT-i), which is the first line of treatment recommended by the American Academy of Sleep Medicine. The program is designed in collaboration with experts from Harvard Medical school. We are running a promotion at the moment, and lifetime access cost only $19.99 (with a 90 day money back guarantee, no questions ask). Check us out at https://slumber.one/offer https://slumber.one/offer

stuffuru 5y ago

My arch nemesis when it comes to sleep is obstructive sleep apnea. I have some soft tissue redundancies (long uvula and turbinate hypertrophy) as well as skeletal deficiencies (recessed jaw and narrow nasal cavity), and I had to have multiple surgeries in addition to PAP therapy to get reasonable (but not great) sleep. When I first started having unrefreshing sleep a couple of years ago, I tried everything under the sun when it comes to sleep hygiene (which helped a bit), but there comes a point when you really need medical interventions.

mweibel 5y ago

I never really had issues with lack of sleep until I became father 1.5 years ago. Child has issues with sleep since the start and while it recently got a bit better, in those 1.5 years I can count the number of times I got 8 hours uninterrupted sleep on one, maybe two hands. On the worst days I could eat double my normal food intake and was still hungry. Working and concentration is quite hard, more coffee intake is the case. Complex thoughts are increasingly difficult (e.g. improving software architecture takes much more time than I was used to). I do wonder what happens when sleep is back to normal. Are some effects staying or will eventually everything go back to how it used to be before?

ALittleLight 5y ago
One major change I experienced on becoming a father is instantly respecting every parent MUCH more than I previously had.
sharmi 5y ago
>I do wonder what happens when sleep is back to normal. Are some effects staying or will eventually everything go back to how it used to be before? We had twins and sleep was incredibly hard for more than 2years. It took me a few more years to realize that not only was my sleep disturbed, my whole sleep hygiene was messed up and I had picked up several detrimental habits (e.g Late night was the only time I had to myself with no disturbances. I started to stay awake increasingly late into the night). I almost had to relearn how to sleep all over again. So, yes, It does get better. You may need to put some effort to reclaim it.

tzekid 5y ago

Most of the bad side effects don't show up ( for me at least ) in the first day of no, or next to no sleep. Against the long-term effects ( and brain / nervous system in general ) I do a 1-month therapy every year of cerebrolysin ( peptide that helps neuro-regeneration ). I've found that if I can function pretty well if I do a 8 - 9h of sleep every other day, too. It's especially great, because I've got me-time for a whole night, while everybody's asleep. Anybody else tried the "sleep well every other day" thing?

bambax 5y ago

> which is something you should be terrified of The use of that word "terrified" in American journalism is mildly annoying, and baffling to me (Slate is also a big culprit). What's with this? If someone threatens me with a deadly weapon I may get terrified (IDK, never happened yet), but I'm not "terrified" of any future event regarding society, the world, or my life. Terror is clear and present danger; it's unclear to me how any hypothetical event placed in the future could ever induce terror today.

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qwerty456127 5y ago

Also substantial relief of anxiety and ADHD. Much easier to approach any kind of task and do it happily without distracting or procrastinating.

begueradj 5y ago

There is a good ans scientific literature about this subject

hackeraccount 5y ago

I've seen people in this thread saying the opposite but for me having a kid has been the key to a good nights sleep. That kid just makes me feel tired all over.

thunkshift1 5y ago

Why is this published on github? Is it the cool new publishing platform for everything now