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Strong disagree. I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. Recruiting farms like Cyber Re

Strong disagree. I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time out of sheer incompetence and disinterest. I've "doubled" my salary plenty of times through this policy. But the real secret sauce is referrals. Companies always prioritize a strong referral, ignoring mediocre interview performance, and will even skip the reference checks so I don't have to bug my network.

dvtrn 5y ago
Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time Or share your data. I made a throwaway, but not obnoxious email on my domain just for recruiters a few years ago, so I could try tracking who I was talking to. Via three consecutive third-party recruiters I started getting cold calls and e-mails from recruiters I’d never contacted, never met, or never before engaged with from agencies that weren’t the ones I spoke to or sent a CV to. Soon I started getting other completely irrelevant email. Then the robocalls came. I later found that email address among five different data leak sources. Just so happened to be a different popular recruiting company that has “Cyber” in the name.
- Tade0 5y ago
  I always ask where do they have this number from. One time the guy told me that the person who referred me "preferred to remain anonymous". I asked him if he realised that this is a violation of GDPR and that a typical candidate would recognize it as such? No coherent answer.
  - Cd00d 5y ago
    I've more than once asked a cold-call recruiter how they got my number where the answer has been a rather candid, "there are markets for such information". Kinda makes me regret the few years my LinkedIn profile had my phone number public, but I do wonder how successful these questionable personal data marketplaces are. I certainly haven't had a conversation get beyond "this is spam".
    - dvtrn 5y ago
      Check out http://intelx.io http://intelx.io, depending on your risk tolerances, putting your email and phone number in yet another search bar may not be in the cards. If you can swallow it though, depending if (1) anything you care about has been leaked at all and (2) anything you care about being leaked has been indexed by this site...the results may be illuminating. Or nothing at all. Interesting resource nonetheless that supplements my day-to-day line of Devsecops. This site and a few other OSINT tools was how I discovered who 'sold out' my CV to some of the questionable 'recruiting agencies'.
      - idontwantthis 5y ago
        How do you put a phone number in? It rejects mine.
        car 5y ago
        Using E.164 international phone number formatting works. E.g. +14155551212.
- lelandfe 5y ago
  I highly recommend using a Google Voice number for recruiters for just such a reason. I keep all my interviewing data isolated from my private data.
  - dvtrn 5y ago
    I have a nice collection of "throwaway" phone numbers for all kinds of reasons, while one of them is dedicated to job hunting, I don't think merely having it would have stopped this agency from sharing my CV across to whomever they shared it with, or stopped whatever leak occurred for said email address to end up in so many collections of leaked data. That was the reason: to understand where my data was leaking from, not to duck recruiter calls.
    - dustyharddrive 5y ago
  - devoutsalsa 5y ago
    These days I just never answer the actual phone for anyone. I don’t even bother to look who is calling.
    - stjohnswarts 5y ago
      Yeah, me too. I have my 3 best friends and my mom whitelisted; everyone else can leave a message or SMS.
    - jjwiseman 5y ago
      A scenario I hadn't thought about, that you might want to be aware of: I had to call 911 recently. I talked to the dispatcher, and hung up. A few minutes later they called me back to give me instructions. The call showed up as a regular Los Angeles 323 area code number. In fact, it was flagged by my phone as spam. It made me wonder whether reverse 911[1] calls, which are used to warn about hazmat situations, fire evacuations, and other public safety issues, show up similarly. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_9-1-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_9-1-1
- imglorp 5y ago
  Same experience. It seems like an old flea market where most people don't buy anything but the vendors all buy and sell old stuff from each other to supplement.
- chana_masala 5y ago
  I legally changed my name two years ago and I still get recruiting emails addressed to my old name. It hasn't been on LinkedIn for equally as long, so I can only anticipate that my data was sold and my old name is cached in some database.
  - brewdad 5y ago
    I've been out of the job market for almost 18 years and I still get a few attempted contacts a year.
- anothernewdude 5y ago
  Even non-recruiter HR will share your data without concern these days.
AlexC04 5y ago
You make a good point. This advice is strongly weighted towards people who still have multiple salary doublings left in their career ladder. At each step up the career ladder, you can afford to be more and more selective around what you're looking for. This basic script is designed to remove or greatly reduce that time-waste from the early process. I'd argue that it makes early ghosting a non issue, by reducing the cost of the initial and clear response it cuts through multiple layers of that dance that the spam-cruiters go through. You're also right about referrals and I don't think this is mutually exclusive with them, instead it is a complimentary passive search protocol.
deleted 5y ago
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TameAntelope 5y ago
Ah, but if someone doesn't have the secret sauce, are you then suggesting that person is doomed? Industry sanctioned nepotism doesn't feel like a good look for the SWE industry, especially given our diversity problems.
- CoastalCoder 5y ago
  I think the popular definition of "nepotism" is hiring one's family or close relations. I doubt anyone is advocating that.
  - TameAntelope 5y ago
    Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. I don't think it's any less bad to hire someone you don't know all that well because you share friends than it is to hire people because they're you're close friend or a family member. The point is that it's exclusionary to outsiders, and outsiders tend to be the exact people tech needs more of.
    - vanusa 5y ago
      Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. Actually it is; it's how the term is defined.
      - TameAntelope 5y ago
        Actually it is not; this is how the term is defined: > nep·o·tism - /ˈnepəˌtizəm/ - noun - the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. [0] > Nepotism is a form of favoritism which is granted to relatives and friends in various fields, including business, politics, entertainment, sports, fitness, religion, and other activities. [1] [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism
fecak 5y ago
Former recruiter here. You are spot-on about referrals, and having an insider advocating for you or just their willingness to make the recommendation starts things off at a great spot. Here's where I disagree. You haven't doubled your salary BECAUSE of your policy of not working with recruiters, but rather DESPITE this policy. Deciding to disregard any recruiter opportunity is just shutting out quite a few things that you probably won't hear about otherwise, especially at the higher levels. Exec roles are often handled by retained recruiting firms and aren't as well publicized as entry level and junior roles. So just saying "I will never work with a third party recruiter" can certainly be your policy, and you may save yourself a fair amount of time by sticking with it, but that policy is doing nothing to advance your position (career, earnings, etc.) The reasons that there are so many incompetent recruiters are many, but a few are: - low cost: companies hire entry level recruiters and pay them next to nothing in guaranteed compensation (mostly commission-based). The good ones will make the company a lot of money, and the bad ones can't afford to stay in the industry because they aren't making enough in commission - so they 'go away'. - low skill: the skills required to be a good recruiter aren't typically taught in school, so they aren't coming out of college with a strong foundation. They need to learn and be successful quickly (because it's commission-based)
- dvtrn 5y ago
  Deciding to disregard any recruiter opportunity is just shutting out quite a few things that you probably won't hear about otherwise and that policy is doing nothing to advance your position (career, earnings, etc.) Are readers supposed to read this as a suggestion that missing out is synonymous with losing out? I kind of take exception to these phrases because it strips a lot of agency out of otherwise exceptional people who are more than capable of navigating their careers to where they want them to be, maybe not necessarily where you as a recruiter think they should be. Seems to me the market is very strong for employees and those with in demand skills and experience to back them up are probably missing out on job x but probably aren’t losing out by any equal measure-all other considerations being equal. One of the most common refrains I've been hearing right here on HackerNews in response to the 'Great Resignation' isn't that people are leaving the workforce, they're just finally leaving jobs they've been wanting to anyway and taking their labor elsewhere. So That said, what does it really matter if someone decides they want more autonomy in who they decide to interview with? Shouldn’t we be encouraging more of this? Especially given some of the fees that come with hiring through a recruiter?
picture_view 5y ago
I was recently talking to a 3rd party recruiter who started asking me for detailed salary info of all my past jobs. I told him that I didn’t feel comfortable answering that, then when he pushed back I told him I’m legally not required to give him that info in my state (and the potential employer’s state.) He abruptly cut the call off and ghosted me. I decided to apply to the company directly. They were happy to talk to me because my experience was a really good fit for them. I come to find out that the recruiter emailed them saying that I was a poor candidate and that he suggest they don’t talk to me. Luckily they didn’t listen to him. I am also done with 3rd party recruiters.
- larkost 5y ago
  It is ok that you did not feel comfortable with that, but pay negotiations are exactly why you would want to have a recruiter: they handle that for you, and are generally incentivized to get you as much money as they can since they generally get a percentage of your yearly salary as their pay. So by telling the recruiter you were not going to share that with them you were hamstringing them... of course they thought you were a bad candidate (for them). It is a bit petty that they told the company that you were a poor candidate, but you seem to not understand what was happening. And it could have been they had already mentioned your name to them, and then had to explain why they suddenly were not representing you. I don't know, but that is a reasonable explanation. I personally have had a mixed bag with recruiters: many I have dealt with are worthless in that they don't understand the jobs they are recruiting for (so give very bad matches to both sides), but I have been lucky twice and had recruiters give me great jobs and handle the pay negotiations so well that I probably got $20-40K/year more than I would have by myself (if I had somehow found those positions).
  - picture_view 5y ago
    So the only good candidates for a recruiter are the ones willing to let their recruiter break the law and make a salary history a requirement for consideration? WA state law makes it very clear as a candidate I don’t need to share salary information, and by some readings of the statute it’s illegal for them to even ask. My most recent job is at a very large public company where the salaries are well published (levels.fyi) - there was no need for me to give a detailed salary history of all my recent jobs. If the value-add of a recruiter is getting a better negotiated salary, what is the value-minus of putting another point of failure between me and a job I want. Surely it’s possible that over time the minuses are greater than the pluses.
ehnto 5y ago
That's the career advice I would give, build good bridges and make friends with people. Everyone is moving around enough that you'll be able to cross into new companies and skip whole song and dance prior. You also get the benefit of having a heads up on the company you're joining too. I don't have a professional network per se, just a bunch of friends I clicked with at various companies. I know if they're enjoying somewhere, I probably will too, since we value similar things in the work.
- kcarter80 5y ago
  That is a professional network.
  - ZhangSWEFAANG 5y ago
    I think he meant that he dosen't have a huge professional network, just something slightly informal.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      That is a professional network.
      - ehnto 5y ago
        I was just trying to articulate what I see as a difference between a purpose built career network and a network of actual friends from work. There is a difference between those two types of networks not captured when you call them both a "Professional network".
        azinman2 5y ago
        To me all you’ve described is a professional network with strong and weak ties.
        ehnto 5y ago
hamburglar 5y ago
Also strong disagree. I literally ignore several obviously useless recruiters a week. I occasionally humor one long enough to confirm that they know exactly nothing about me and have put zero actual thought into their inquiry. Asking “what about my resume made you think of me for this position” is usually very enlightening. I do have an exception, however, and it’s not recruiters that are affiliated with a particular company, it’s high quality recruiters that my friends refer me to and who will work on my behalf. I had one spend a TON of time really getting to know what I was looking for, what my skills were, and what made me happy, and he looked at companies with an eye toward making both me and the company happy long term, because he knew that’s where the big payoff was.
castlecrasher2 5y ago
Agreed, though I still pay attention in case something interesting shows up. For example, I got my current role through a third-party recruiter (an individual, not a farm like Cyber Recruiters) and it was a great experience through and through.
busterarm 5y ago
I was hired to my current company through an external recruiter that had a great track record but was expensive. We dropped all of those external recruiters in favor of internal ones who are absolutely useless at finding us worthy candidates because unlike the external recruiter I worked with our internal ones don't have an engineering background. My recruiter started his career as a software engineer.
reincarnate0x14 5y ago
I'm sure there are great recruiters out there (somewhere), but totally agree on this. Had real days of my life wasted on interviews and such, sometimes only to have everyone at the table realize it was a completely bad fit with no hurt feelings about a minute into us talking directly and not through "the process". Meanwhile got an out of the blue referral from a guy I had worked with ten years prior that started my consulting years. Not everyone is a superstar networker but be kind, supportive, and professional to your coworkers. People talk.
lhorie 5y ago
My takeaway from the article wasn't to work with every recruiter that spams you (in the sense of actually spending time in their funnel), but rather, take the opportunity to "interview them" with a "standardized test" of sorts. As the article said, most of the time, you're not actively job searching, but you generally do care about salary data points and what sort of roles are available. For unicorns, you can find salary info through levels.fyi, but for those not making those 300k+/yr, the pool of better paying jobs is much larger and recruiters still remain a useful source of data. Sniffing for roles is an underused technique. Recruiters have like 3 paragraphs to catch your attention, so they optimize for bang-for-the-buck. Which means they aren't going to offer EM roles if you don't already hold that title, even if the company has an opening. A lot of times, if your next career ladder rung is a title upgrade or a role pivot, you need to ask explicitly. As for your policy, I feel like it's attributing all your chips into one thing while ignoring everything else you've done. Like many here, I've had my share of salary bumps over the course of my career, and each time it was through different methods (diagonal internal move, OSS lead, unicorn recruitment, promotions). It'd be naive to not have more than one tool in the arsenal.
- AlexC04 5y ago
  I love this response. Thanks Leo!
silisili 5y ago
Same. Sorry for any good recruiters out there, but these people are generally used car salesman like scum. Multiple keep emailing my work address even after asking them numerous times to stop. One I worked with on a potentially good role - acted like my best buddy, constantly texting and calling for weeks, and when I decided not to take the offer, just ghosted me. Not even an 'OK thanks anyways'. I think even an annoyed reply like 'Sigh, OK' would have been more professional. Anymore I just ignore them all.
Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
> I've "doubled" my salary plenty of times through this policy. Meanwhile, I doubled my salary by responding to a recruiter. Though FWIW, I was actively looking for new work at the time.
- commandlinefan 5y ago
  Well, let's be honest - when you're just starting out, making $50,000/year, you can probably double your salary in one jump. If you're making $200,000/year, you're not going to double your salary, recruiter or not.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    You're absolutely correct. In my case, I doubled from $100K to $200K. I would not expect to double it again. I'd be lucky to even see 50%.
kodah 5y ago
> I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. This is a massive privilege. A lot of companies interview in a way that I couldn't pass years ago, so I depended on external recruiters to get me jobs. This was basically how I made a living in the South without a CS or CE degree. The universal truth I see throughout every career advice thread is always take this advice with a grain of salt.
- obmelvin 5y ago
  Yes, it's interesting to see how many people here are 100% against 3rd party recruiters rather than recognizing there are those good and bad at their job - just like anything else. My best friend from growing up had a 3rd party recruiter go completely out of their way to help him, and he was very appreciative of that.
  - andrewnicolalde 5y ago
    What form did the help take?
  - conro1108 5y ago
    I think it's possible to recognize that 3rd party recruiters can be good or bad at their job while also coming to the conclusion that the bad outweighs the good to a degree that it's not worth the time to figure it out. It's certainly a privilege to be in a position where you'd still have an excess of inbound job opportunities even without 3rd party recruiters. But if that's the position you're in, it's one of the more effective strategies I've seen to increase signal:noise.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
> Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time out of sheer incompetence and disinterest. Cyber Coders, I think that is the actual name, is pretty bad. They use a lot of automation to build funnels and send out messages automatically. There are several thousand other recruiting firms that do the same thing with more or less technology. That being said their goal isnt to waste your time. They are just playing a numbers game. They are trying to hit the postgre DBA who just got told their contract is ending with an email about a postgre DBA contract that starts ASAP. If you are that person and you get that email you might have good results. I think people get angry when recruiters don't personalize messages or make sure that they are actually qualified for a job or that they actually are helpful during the interview process. But they sold for 105 million in 2013. Their model works despite having one of the worst reputations in the business. They generate a shit load of revenue by spamming massive amounts of people and getting enough emails to the right person at the right time. If you view third party recruiters as someone who is going to be your job agent and work for you, you're going to have a bad time. If you think of them as street vendors who are slinging wares of questionable quality and price and who offering no refund no return one supply items... You might have a better experience and save yourself a lot of grief. TLDR: Recruiting companies print money by getting the right email to the right person at the right time. They don't work for you. Don't expect their service to be tailered for you. [1] https://www.cybercoders.com/insights/press-release-cybercoders-is-acquired-by-on-assignment-for-105-million/ https://www.cybercoders.com/insights/press-release-cybercode...
wly_cdgr 5y ago
Unfortunately, you are correct. Nepotism has always been the key to professional success
jeffalbertson 5y ago
Very much agree with this comment. Just had an awful experience with a Jobot recruiter and will 100% never work with anyone affiliated with that company again.
subsubzero 5y ago
Strongly with you on this one. I have had recruiters from the UK reach out to me(I'm based on the west coast in US) from agencies and made the mistake of replying to one. Complete waste of time and total incompetence on their side. I have a rule like this(recruiters have to be from the company they are soliciting for): - If I am interested in the company I will reply right away. - Somewhat/not really interested ignore first email they send out and if they followup a reply I then email them stating I am not looking for work now but could change my mind in the future. - Not interested in company at all just ignore the unsolicited response. I have also completely given up on startups as the comp they have been getting back to me with is 50-70% lower than my TC and its a waste of my time. Your time is the most important resource you have, don't waste it on unsolicited responses from recruiters in positions that are not right or companies you have no desire to work for.
codegeek 5y ago
There are 3 types of recruiters: 1. Internal company recruiters. They couldn't care less about contacting you directly unless things have changed in today's market (My last interaction with in house recruiter was circa 2010). 2. Scummy recruiting farms where they hire a bunch of people on commissions and they spam anyone and everyone 3. Recruiters who actually have relationships with a customer, prospect good candidates like a salesperson, keep their pipeline full and understand the hiring needs. They work diligently to find good candidates who fit the job description. They do exist but are rare unfortunately. I have no problem with #3 above and I have worked with some great ones in the past and right now as a hiring manager, working with one who is trying to find a senior level candidate for a while now (lot of work there).
- ravenstine 5y ago
  My exact experience. I've had one actual great recruiter that was in the #3 category, one okay recruiter from #2 who a #1 recruiter farmed out to, and then dozens and dozens of sleazeballs from #2. For the most part, I just say ignore recruiters entirely, unless the job is for a great company and there are no red flags, instead opting to network and send emails directly to people in charge of hiring.
- jiveturkey 5y ago
  #3 = headhunters
- gbronner 5y ago
  I got my current job through an internal company recruiter. He's the best I've ever seen in this business -- the introduction was extremely well targeted, the process was very low-pressure, and he's measured on the long-term success of the people he brings in. He spent time explaining the role, the skills, and the goals, and offered feedback throughout the process.
- jnwatson 5y ago
  That’s a great categorization. I’ve accepted a job through a very good internal recruiter once in 2015. I can distinguish between a 2 and a 3 in a 5 minute phone call. I don’t understand all the hate about recruiters. I cut off the bad ones and the folks left are great. The overhead is quite low.
l30n4da5 5y ago
> Strong disagree. I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time out of sheer incompetence and disinterest. 100% agree. I'd go a step further and say: don't bother applying for any job on Indeed where they say "we're looking to fill a contract position with <insert some info about another company (a top industry producer!)>" because they're just a front for those same recruiting farms.
devoutsalsa 5y ago
> Companies always prioritize a strong referral, ignoring mediocre interview performance, and will even skip the reference checks I wish this were always true. When I worked as a recruiter, I saw referrals routinely get tossed onto the stack of resumes with no special preference. How candidates are treated completely depends on the preferences of the hiring manager & corporate red tape, even at smaller companies.
- erik_seaberg 5y ago
  At my day job a good referral skips the tech phone screen. At Google a favorite ex-manager referred me but couldn’t improve my odds at all.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
scarface74 5y ago
I’ve had great experiences with local recruiters who had relationships with the client companies. They will tell you the max salary you can get, the interview process, why past candidates failed, the actual must have requirements, etc. My success rate from my application being submitted by a recruiter to a phone screen with the client company is 100%. My non rejection rate was close to that. That’s when I was hopping around in corp dev. I have a specialty now that’s slightly more niche. I am working for by far the largest company in that niche so I don’t really need the middlemen anymore. If I ever decide to leave my current employer, no one is going to ignore my resume.
LinearEntropy 5y ago
I completely agree with you. Every single job offer I have received has come through direct listings from the company itself. Safe to say the quality of tech recruiters in New Zealand is even lower than those elsewhere.
- Mandatum 5y ago
  Because the market is tiny. Recruiters can't specialize, and those that do get eaten up by the likes of Datacom or Australian-based providers. Most recruiters in NZ start from labourer/contracting/HR firms and then move into tech because it's better paid. Whereas in Australia you get people who trained specifically to be a tech recruiter, or migrated to recruitment from tech (usually BA and QA type roles).
- throwaway6532 5y ago
  >Safe to say the quality of tech recruiters in New Zealand is even lower than those elsewhere. Can vouch for this. Made that mistake. Never again.
polote 5y ago
> I've "doubled" my salary plenty of times through this policy. Let say you started at 50k (which is very low) and you doubled your salary 4 times (what is plenty ?). Then you make now 800k. Which is unlikely, so your main argument is probably wrong
- ThalesX 5y ago
  I've doubled my income some times but I started out at around $200
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Les'see, when I worked halftime for my Dad at 14, I got 60 SEK (~$12 at the exchange rate back then?) a month... Uh, no, would need to know cumulative inflation since then to figure out how many doublings it's been. Quite a few, I guess. Not as many as I'd wish.
stretchwithme 5y ago
My policy is if you hear 18 other recruiters murmuring in the background, decline, then block that number and that email. Sometimes you get multiple contacts from different recruiters with the same company on the same day. If they won't tell you what company is interested, they don't have a contract with that company. Don't be open and honest with a recruiter if they aren't open and honest with you.
kyawzazaw 5y ago
Great Third party headhunters can be good too
winternett 5y ago
Agreed. My primary test for a recruiter call is to ask them if the position is funded and what the title is. Recruiting warehouses will often say they want to ask me a few more questions before answering that, and the truth is they're scouring Indeed for the same jobs I could find on my own and adding a recruiter commission to the bid.
dheera 5y ago
Also I've had third-party recruiters ask for an version of my resume in Word format so they can standardize the format. A. Fuck no. You aren't modifying my resume. I created it to be presented exactly as I have laid it out. I made it to stand out, not be standardized with a hundred other resumes B. I don't use Microsoft stuff, like many other engineers Usually if a third-party recruiter says Company XYZ is looking for people and I'm actually interested in that company, I'll just go shoot an e-mail to that company directly with my resume and not respond to the recruiter. I highly encourage everyone to do the same.
jd24 5y ago
Agreed. When I looked for my first job I entertained calls from 3rd party recruiters. They were completely worthless and a huge waste of time. On top of that, they sold my info to other recruiter/spammers. I started getting tons of calls from robo-callers and other recruiters whom I never contacted. Had to change my phone number. Now I only leave my email on my resume. And the only recruiters I'll ever talk to are ones who directly work for the company I'm applying to.
muzani 5y ago
"But the real secret sauce is referrals." This is a given. Recruiters are there to help you get access to companies you don't have referrals in. They're good for those from other states or countries, or from a different social class.
folkrav 5y ago
YMMV. I've doubled my salary in the last couple of years by following recruiter cold-calls, including once for a recruiter not affiliated to the company, and it obviously wasn't a pure waste of time for me.
decafninja 5y ago
Maybe it works for other (non-SWE) professions, and maybe it still works for the more conservative enterprise companies, but my experience is that for most Silicon Valley style tech companies, a referral might at best just let you skip the phone screen. Then it's the same leetcode circus show as anyone else. But yes, I agree with you that most third party recruiters suck. I'd say there are some very small boutique firms out there that don't suck though. Generally, the larger the recruiting agency, the shittier they are.
mkulinski 5y ago
Agreed - this is insane for software engineers to follow. Especially right now.
gigatexal 5y ago
Yup a referral is the most powerful ally one can have in getting hired.
emodendroket 5y ago
I have had some positive third-party recruiter experiences, but only after being referred by friends. On the other hand, there are other guys putting up fake listings to trick you into contacting them.
baash05 5y ago
I've landed almost every gig in the last 10 years through the same recruitment firm. They've been so awesome, and they have a finger on the pulse of the industry. I've had excellent dealings with recruiters over the years from various companies.
mihaaly 5y ago
Right! Additionally the "recruiters are also one of the best career resources you can find" was never true to me. The exact number out of close to hundred recruiter contacts is 0. As you said, using my network, be it tight or loose threads (colleagues to acquaintances or even the knowledge of an organization) helped me exclusively. Even the affiliated ones are problematic many times. My latest experience is a recruiter hired by the organization advising me to improve the cosmetics of my CV (i.e. lie about my past, exclude an incomplete but important education), organised the interview and gave an interview preparation with stale and generic 'advise' you can find on internet word by word, which was useless as the topic of the interview was something else and with someone else than predicted. They seemed to operated based on a script that was prepared to give the impression of caring and making actual work, however the content of the work was mere scheduling.
hngpt2 5y ago
This is the key to success. Even if you think a company is bad, but you have a good network that sends a referral your way, it will probably save you. If the job was good and you liked working there - and you had the right attitude - then it's your job. Recruiters and even companies make it harder for a resume to get to the hiring manager than it ever used to be.
dominotw 5y ago
> Companies always prioritize a strong referral, ignoring mediocre interview performance, and will even skip the reference checks so I don't have to bug my network. I've never found this to be true.

dvtrn 5y ago

Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time Or share your data. I made a throwaway, but not obnoxious email on my domain just for recruiters a few years ago, so I could try tracking who I was talking to. Via three consecutive third-party recruiters I started getting cold calls and e-mails from recruiters I’d never contacted, never met, or never before engaged with from agencies that weren’t the ones I spoke to or sent a CV to. Soon I started getting other completely irrelevant email. Then the robocalls came. I later found that email address among five different data leak sources. Just so happened to be a different popular recruiting company that has “Cyber” in the name.

Tade0 5y ago
I always ask where do they have this number from. One time the guy told me that the person who referred me "preferred to remain anonymous". I asked him if he realised that this is a violation of GDPR and that a typical candidate would recognize it as such? No coherent answer.
- Cd00d 5y ago
  I've more than once asked a cold-call recruiter how they got my number where the answer has been a rather candid, "there are markets for such information". Kinda makes me regret the few years my LinkedIn profile had my phone number public, but I do wonder how successful these questionable personal data marketplaces are. I certainly haven't had a conversation get beyond "this is spam".
  - dvtrn 5y ago
    Check out http://intelx.io http://intelx.io, depending on your risk tolerances, putting your email and phone number in yet another search bar may not be in the cards. If you can swallow it though, depending if (1) anything you care about has been leaked at all and (2) anything you care about being leaked has been indexed by this site...the results may be illuminating. Or nothing at all. Interesting resource nonetheless that supplements my day-to-day line of Devsecops. This site and a few other OSINT tools was how I discovered who 'sold out' my CV to some of the questionable 'recruiting agencies'.
    - idontwantthis 5y ago
      How do you put a phone number in? It rejects mine.
      - car 5y ago
        Using E.164 international phone number formatting works. E.g. +14155551212.
lelandfe 5y ago
I highly recommend using a Google Voice number for recruiters for just such a reason. I keep all my interviewing data isolated from my private data.
- dvtrn 5y ago
  I have a nice collection of "throwaway" phone numbers for all kinds of reasons, while one of them is dedicated to job hunting, I don't think merely having it would have stopped this agency from sharing my CV across to whomever they shared it with, or stopped whatever leak occurred for said email address to end up in so many collections of leaked data. That was the reason: to understand where my data was leaking from, not to duck recruiter calls.
  - dustyharddrive 5y ago
- devoutsalsa 5y ago
  These days I just never answer the actual phone for anyone. I don’t even bother to look who is calling.
  - stjohnswarts 5y ago
    Yeah, me too. I have my 3 best friends and my mom whitelisted; everyone else can leave a message or SMS.
  - jjwiseman 5y ago
    A scenario I hadn't thought about, that you might want to be aware of: I had to call 911 recently. I talked to the dispatcher, and hung up. A few minutes later they called me back to give me instructions. The call showed up as a regular Los Angeles 323 area code number. In fact, it was flagged by my phone as spam. It made me wonder whether reverse 911[1] calls, which are used to warn about hazmat situations, fire evacuations, and other public safety issues, show up similarly. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_9-1-1 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reverse_9-1-1
imglorp 5y ago
Same experience. It seems like an old flea market where most people don't buy anything but the vendors all buy and sell old stuff from each other to supplement.
chana_masala 5y ago
I legally changed my name two years ago and I still get recruiting emails addressed to my old name. It hasn't been on LinkedIn for equally as long, so I can only anticipate that my data was sold and my old name is cached in some database.
- brewdad 5y ago
  I've been out of the job market for almost 18 years and I still get a few attempted contacts a year.
anothernewdude 5y ago
Even non-recruiter HR will share your data without concern these days.

AlexC04 5y ago

You make a good point. This advice is strongly weighted towards people who still have multiple salary doublings left in their career ladder. At each step up the career ladder, you can afford to be more and more selective around what you're looking for. This basic script is designed to remove or greatly reduce that time-waste from the early process. I'd argue that it makes early ghosting a non issue, by reducing the cost of the initial and clear response it cuts through multiple layers of that dance that the spam-cruiters go through. You're also right about referrals and I don't think this is mutually exclusive with them, instead it is a complimentary passive search protocol.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

TameAntelope 5y ago

Ah, but if someone doesn't have the secret sauce, are you then suggesting that person is doomed? Industry sanctioned nepotism doesn't feel like a good look for the SWE industry, especially given our diversity problems.

CoastalCoder 5y ago
I think the popular definition of "nepotism" is hiring one's family or close relations. I doubt anyone is advocating that.
- TameAntelope 5y ago
  Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. I don't think it's any less bad to hire someone you don't know all that well because you share friends than it is to hire people because they're you're close friend or a family member. The point is that it's exclusionary to outsiders, and outsiders tend to be the exact people tech needs more of.
  - vanusa 5y ago
    Closeness isn't a requisite for nepotistic behavior, only undue bias due to personal familiarity. Actually it is; it's how the term is defined.
    - TameAntelope 5y ago
      Actually it is not; this is how the term is defined: > nep·o·tism - /ˈnepəˌtizəm/ - noun - the practice among those with power or influence of favoring relatives or friends, especially by giving them jobs. [0] > Nepotism is a form of favoritism which is granted to relatives and friends in various fields, including business, politics, entertainment, sports, fitness, religion, and other activities. [1] [0] https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism https://www.google.com/search?q=define%3Anepotism [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nepotism

fecak 5y ago

Former recruiter here. You are spot-on about referrals, and having an insider advocating for you or just their willingness to make the recommendation starts things off at a great spot. Here's where I disagree. You haven't doubled your salary BECAUSE of your policy of not working with recruiters, but rather DESPITE this policy. Deciding to disregard any recruiter opportunity is just shutting out quite a few things that you probably won't hear about otherwise, especially at the higher levels. Exec roles are often handled by retained recruiting firms and aren't as well publicized as entry level and junior roles. So just saying "I will never work with a third party recruiter" can certainly be your policy, and you may save yourself a fair amount of time by sticking with it, but that policy is doing nothing to advance your position (career, earnings, etc.) The reasons that there are so many incompetent recruiters are many, but a few are: - low cost: companies hire entry level recruiters and pay them next to nothing in guaranteed compensation (mostly commission-based). The good ones will make the company a lot of money, and the bad ones can't afford to stay in the industry because they aren't making enough in commission - so they 'go away'. - low skill: the skills required to be a good recruiter aren't typically taught in school, so they aren't coming out of college with a strong foundation. They need to learn and be successful quickly (because it's commission-based)

dvtrn 5y ago
Deciding to disregard any recruiter opportunity is just shutting out quite a few things that you probably won't hear about otherwise and that policy is doing nothing to advance your position (career, earnings, etc.) Are readers supposed to read this as a suggestion that missing out is synonymous with losing out? I kind of take exception to these phrases because it strips a lot of agency out of otherwise exceptional people who are more than capable of navigating their careers to where they want them to be, maybe not necessarily where you as a recruiter think they should be. Seems to me the market is very strong for employees and those with in demand skills and experience to back them up are probably missing out on job x but probably aren’t losing out by any equal measure-all other considerations being equal. One of the most common refrains I've been hearing right here on HackerNews in response to the 'Great Resignation' isn't that people are leaving the workforce, they're just finally leaving jobs they've been wanting to anyway and taking their labor elsewhere. So That said, what does it really matter if someone decides they want more autonomy in who they decide to interview with? Shouldn’t we be encouraging more of this? Especially given some of the fees that come with hiring through a recruiter?

picture_view 5y ago

I was recently talking to a 3rd party recruiter who started asking me for detailed salary info of all my past jobs. I told him that I didn’t feel comfortable answering that, then when he pushed back I told him I’m legally not required to give him that info in my state (and the potential employer’s state.) He abruptly cut the call off and ghosted me. I decided to apply to the company directly. They were happy to talk to me because my experience was a really good fit for them. I come to find out that the recruiter emailed them saying that I was a poor candidate and that he suggest they don’t talk to me. Luckily they didn’t listen to him. I am also done with 3rd party recruiters.

larkost 5y ago
It is ok that you did not feel comfortable with that, but pay negotiations are exactly why you would want to have a recruiter: they handle that for you, and are generally incentivized to get you as much money as they can since they generally get a percentage of your yearly salary as their pay. So by telling the recruiter you were not going to share that with them you were hamstringing them... of course they thought you were a bad candidate (for them). It is a bit petty that they told the company that you were a poor candidate, but you seem to not understand what was happening. And it could have been they had already mentioned your name to them, and then had to explain why they suddenly were not representing you. I don't know, but that is a reasonable explanation. I personally have had a mixed bag with recruiters: many I have dealt with are worthless in that they don't understand the jobs they are recruiting for (so give very bad matches to both sides), but I have been lucky twice and had recruiters give me great jobs and handle the pay negotiations so well that I probably got $20-40K/year more than I would have by myself (if I had somehow found those positions).
- picture_view 5y ago
  So the only good candidates for a recruiter are the ones willing to let their recruiter break the law and make a salary history a requirement for consideration? WA state law makes it very clear as a candidate I don’t need to share salary information, and by some readings of the statute it’s illegal for them to even ask. My most recent job is at a very large public company where the salaries are well published (levels.fyi) - there was no need for me to give a detailed salary history of all my recent jobs. If the value-add of a recruiter is getting a better negotiated salary, what is the value-minus of putting another point of failure between me and a job I want. Surely it’s possible that over time the minuses are greater than the pluses.

ehnto 5y ago

That's the career advice I would give, build good bridges and make friends with people. Everyone is moving around enough that you'll be able to cross into new companies and skip whole song and dance prior. You also get the benefit of having a heads up on the company you're joining too. I don't have a professional network per se, just a bunch of friends I clicked with at various companies. I know if they're enjoying somewhere, I probably will too, since we value similar things in the work.

kcarter80 5y ago
That is a professional network.
- ZhangSWEFAANG 5y ago
  I think he meant that he dosen't have a huge professional network, just something slightly informal.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    That is a professional network.
    - ehnto 5y ago
      I was just trying to articulate what I see as a difference between a purpose built career network and a network of actual friends from work. There is a difference between those two types of networks not captured when you call them both a "Professional network".
      - azinman2 5y ago
        To me all you’ve described is a professional network with strong and weak ties.
        ehnto 5y ago

hamburglar 5y ago

Also strong disagree. I literally ignore several obviously useless recruiters a week. I occasionally humor one long enough to confirm that they know exactly nothing about me and have put zero actual thought into their inquiry. Asking “what about my resume made you think of me for this position” is usually very enlightening. I do have an exception, however, and it’s not recruiters that are affiliated with a particular company, it’s high quality recruiters that my friends refer me to and who will work on my behalf. I had one spend a TON of time really getting to know what I was looking for, what my skills were, and what made me happy, and he looked at companies with an eye toward making both me and the company happy long term, because he knew that’s where the big payoff was.

castlecrasher2 5y ago

Agreed, though I still pay attention in case something interesting shows up. For example, I got my current role through a third-party recruiter (an individual, not a farm like Cyber Recruiters) and it was a great experience through and through.

busterarm 5y ago

I was hired to my current company through an external recruiter that had a great track record but was expensive. We dropped all of those external recruiters in favor of internal ones who are absolutely useless at finding us worthy candidates because unlike the external recruiter I worked with our internal ones don't have an engineering background. My recruiter started his career as a software engineer.

reincarnate0x14 5y ago

I'm sure there are great recruiters out there (somewhere), but totally agree on this. Had real days of my life wasted on interviews and such, sometimes only to have everyone at the table realize it was a completely bad fit with no hurt feelings about a minute into us talking directly and not through "the process". Meanwhile got an out of the blue referral from a guy I had worked with ten years prior that started my consulting years. Not everyone is a superstar networker but be kind, supportive, and professional to your coworkers. People talk.

lhorie 5y ago

My takeaway from the article wasn't to work with every recruiter that spams you (in the sense of actually spending time in their funnel), but rather, take the opportunity to "interview them" with a "standardized test" of sorts. As the article said, most of the time, you're not actively job searching, but you generally do care about salary data points and what sort of roles are available. For unicorns, you can find salary info through levels.fyi, but for those not making those 300k+/yr, the pool of better paying jobs is much larger and recruiters still remain a useful source of data. Sniffing for roles is an underused technique. Recruiters have like 3 paragraphs to catch your attention, so they optimize for bang-for-the-buck. Which means they aren't going to offer EM roles if you don't already hold that title, even if the company has an opening. A lot of times, if your next career ladder rung is a title upgrade or a role pivot, you need to ask explicitly. As for your policy, I feel like it's attributing all your chips into one thing while ignoring everything else you've done. Like many here, I've had my share of salary bumps over the course of my career, and each time it was through different methods (diagonal internal move, OSS lead, unicorn recruitment, promotions). It'd be naive to not have more than one tool in the arsenal.

AlexC04 5y ago
I love this response. Thanks Leo!

silisili 5y ago

Same. Sorry for any good recruiters out there, but these people are generally used car salesman like scum. Multiple keep emailing my work address even after asking them numerous times to stop. One I worked with on a potentially good role - acted like my best buddy, constantly texting and calling for weeks, and when I decided not to take the offer, just ghosted me. Not even an 'OK thanks anyways'. I think even an annoyed reply like 'Sigh, OK' would have been more professional. Anymore I just ignore them all.

Sohcahtoa82 5y ago

> I've "doubled" my salary plenty of times through this policy. Meanwhile, I doubled my salary by responding to a recruiter. Though FWIW, I was actively looking for new work at the time.

commandlinefan 5y ago
Well, let's be honest - when you're just starting out, making $50,000/year, you can probably double your salary in one jump. If you're making $200,000/year, you're not going to double your salary, recruiter or not.
- Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
  You're absolutely correct. In my case, I doubled from $100K to $200K. I would not expect to double it again. I'd be lucky to even see 50%.

kodah 5y ago

> I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. This is a massive privilege. A lot of companies interview in a way that I couldn't pass years ago, so I depended on external recruiters to get me jobs. This was basically how I made a living in the South without a CS or CE degree. The universal truth I see throughout every career advice thread is always take this advice with a grain of salt.

obmelvin 5y ago
Yes, it's interesting to see how many people here are 100% against 3rd party recruiters rather than recognizing there are those good and bad at their job - just like anything else. My best friend from growing up had a 3rd party recruiter go completely out of their way to help him, and he was very appreciative of that.
- andrewnicolalde 5y ago
  What form did the help take?
- conro1108 5y ago
  I think it's possible to recognize that 3rd party recruiters can be good or bad at their job while also coming to the conclusion that the bad outweighs the good to a degree that it's not worth the time to figure it out. It's certainly a privilege to be in a position where you'd still have an excess of inbound job opportunities even without 3rd party recruiters. But if that's the position you're in, it's one of the more effective strategies I've seen to increase signal:noise.

AlwaysRock 5y ago

> Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time out of sheer incompetence and disinterest. Cyber Coders, I think that is the actual name, is pretty bad. They use a lot of automation to build funnels and send out messages automatically. There are several thousand other recruiting firms that do the same thing with more or less technology. That being said their goal isnt to waste your time. They are just playing a numbers game. They are trying to hit the postgre DBA who just got told their contract is ending with an email about a postgre DBA contract that starts ASAP. If you are that person and you get that email you might have good results. I think people get angry when recruiters don't personalize messages or make sure that they are actually qualified for a job or that they actually are helpful during the interview process. But they sold for 105 million in 2013. Their model works despite having one of the worst reputations in the business. They generate a shit load of revenue by spamming massive amounts of people and getting enough emails to the right person at the right time. If you view third party recruiters as someone who is going to be your job agent and work for you, you're going to have a bad time. If you think of them as street vendors who are slinging wares of questionable quality and price and who offering no refund no return one supply items... You might have a better experience and save yourself a lot of grief. TLDR: Recruiting companies print money by getting the right email to the right person at the right time. They don't work for you. Don't expect their service to be tailered for you. [1] https://www.cybercoders.com/insights/press-release-cybercoders-is-acquired-by-on-assignment-for-105-million/ https://www.cybercoders.com/insights/press-release-cybercode...

wly_cdgr 5y ago

Unfortunately, you are correct. Nepotism has always been the key to professional success

jeffalbertson 5y ago

Very much agree with this comment. Just had an awful experience with a Jobot recruiter and will 100% never work with anyone affiliated with that company again.

subsubzero 5y ago

Strongly with you on this one. I have had recruiters from the UK reach out to me(I'm based on the west coast in US) from agencies and made the mistake of replying to one. Complete waste of time and total incompetence on their side. I have a rule like this(recruiters have to be from the company they are soliciting for): - If I am interested in the company I will reply right away. - Somewhat/not really interested ignore first email they send out and if they followup a reply I then email them stating I am not looking for work now but could change my mind in the future. - Not interested in company at all just ignore the unsolicited response. I have also completely given up on startups as the comp they have been getting back to me with is 50-70% lower than my TC and its a waste of my time. Your time is the most important resource you have, don't waste it on unsolicited responses from recruiters in positions that are not right or companies you have no desire to work for.

codegeek 5y ago

There are 3 types of recruiters: 1. Internal company recruiters. They couldn't care less about contacting you directly unless things have changed in today's market (My last interaction with in house recruiter was circa 2010). 2. Scummy recruiting farms where they hire a bunch of people on commissions and they spam anyone and everyone 3. Recruiters who actually have relationships with a customer, prospect good candidates like a salesperson, keep their pipeline full and understand the hiring needs. They work diligently to find good candidates who fit the job description. They do exist but are rare unfortunately. I have no problem with #3 above and I have worked with some great ones in the past and right now as a hiring manager, working with one who is trying to find a senior level candidate for a while now (lot of work there).

ravenstine 5y ago
My exact experience. I've had one actual great recruiter that was in the #3 category, one okay recruiter from #2 who a #1 recruiter farmed out to, and then dozens and dozens of sleazeballs from #2. For the most part, I just say ignore recruiters entirely, unless the job is for a great company and there are no red flags, instead opting to network and send emails directly to people in charge of hiring.
jiveturkey 5y ago
#3 = headhunters
gbronner 5y ago
I got my current job through an internal company recruiter. He's the best I've ever seen in this business -- the introduction was extremely well targeted, the process was very low-pressure, and he's measured on the long-term success of the people he brings in. He spent time explaining the role, the skills, and the goals, and offered feedback throughout the process.
jnwatson 5y ago
That’s a great categorization. I’ve accepted a job through a very good internal recruiter once in 2015. I can distinguish between a 2 and a 3 in a 5 minute phone call. I don’t understand all the hate about recruiters. I cut off the bad ones and the folks left are great. The overhead is quite low.

l30n4da5 5y ago

> Strong disagree. I've made it my policy to never work with a recruiter that isn't affiliated with the company they're hiring for. Recruiting farms like Cyber Recruiters (yuck) will do everything in their power to waste your time out of sheer incompetence and disinterest. 100% agree. I'd go a step further and say: don't bother applying for any job on Indeed where they say "we're looking to fill a contract position with <insert some info about another company (a top industry producer!)>" because they're just a front for those same recruiting farms.

devoutsalsa 5y ago

> Companies always prioritize a strong referral, ignoring mediocre interview performance, and will even skip the reference checks I wish this were always true. When I worked as a recruiter, I saw referrals routinely get tossed onto the stack of resumes with no special preference. How candidates are treated completely depends on the preferences of the hiring manager & corporate red tape, even at smaller companies.

erik_seaberg 5y ago
At my day job a good referral skips the tech phone screen. At Google a favorite ex-manager referred me but couldn’t improve my odds at all.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

scarface74 5y ago

I’ve had great experiences with local recruiters who had relationships with the client companies. They will tell you the max salary you can get, the interview process, why past candidates failed, the actual must have requirements, etc. My success rate from my application being submitted by a recruiter to a phone screen with the client company is 100%. My non rejection rate was close to that. That’s when I was hopping around in corp dev. I have a specialty now that’s slightly more niche. I am working for by far the largest company in that niche so I don’t really need the middlemen anymore. If I ever decide to leave my current employer, no one is going to ignore my resume.

LinearEntropy 5y ago

I completely agree with you. Every single job offer I have received has come through direct listings from the company itself. Safe to say the quality of tech recruiters in New Zealand is even lower than those elsewhere.

Mandatum 5y ago
Because the market is tiny. Recruiters can't specialize, and those that do get eaten up by the likes of Datacom or Australian-based providers. Most recruiters in NZ start from labourer/contracting/HR firms and then move into tech because it's better paid. Whereas in Australia you get people who trained specifically to be a tech recruiter, or migrated to recruitment from tech (usually BA and QA type roles).
throwaway6532 5y ago
>Safe to say the quality of tech recruiters in New Zealand is even lower than those elsewhere. Can vouch for this. Made that mistake. Never again.

polote 5y ago

> I've "doubled" my salary plenty of times through this policy. Let say you started at 50k (which is very low) and you doubled your salary 4 times (what is plenty ?). Then you make now 800k. Which is unlikely, so your main argument is probably wrong

ThalesX 5y ago
I've doubled my income some times but I started out at around $200
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Les'see, when I worked halftime for my Dad at 14, I got 60 SEK (~$12 at the exchange rate back then?) a month... Uh, no, would need to know cumulative inflation since then to figure out how many doublings it's been. Quite a few, I guess. Not as many as I'd wish.

stretchwithme 5y ago

My policy is if you hear 18 other recruiters murmuring in the background, decline, then block that number and that email. Sometimes you get multiple contacts from different recruiters with the same company on the same day. If they won't tell you what company is interested, they don't have a contract with that company. Don't be open and honest with a recruiter if they aren't open and honest with you.

kyawzazaw 5y ago

Great Third party headhunters can be good too

winternett 5y ago

Agreed. My primary test for a recruiter call is to ask them if the position is funded and what the title is. Recruiting warehouses will often say they want to ask me a few more questions before answering that, and the truth is they're scouring Indeed for the same jobs I could find on my own and adding a recruiter commission to the bid.

dheera 5y ago

Also I've had third-party recruiters ask for an version of my resume in Word format so they can standardize the format. A. Fuck no. You aren't modifying my resume. I created it to be presented exactly as I have laid it out. I made it to stand out, not be standardized with a hundred other resumes B. I don't use Microsoft stuff, like many other engineers Usually if a third-party recruiter says Company XYZ is looking for people and I'm actually interested in that company, I'll just go shoot an e-mail to that company directly with my resume and not respond to the recruiter. I highly encourage everyone to do the same.

jd24 5y ago

Agreed. When I looked for my first job I entertained calls from 3rd party recruiters. They were completely worthless and a huge waste of time. On top of that, they sold my info to other recruiter/spammers. I started getting tons of calls from robo-callers and other recruiters whom I never contacted. Had to change my phone number. Now I only leave my email on my resume. And the only recruiters I'll ever talk to are ones who directly work for the company I'm applying to.

muzani 5y ago

"But the real secret sauce is referrals." This is a given. Recruiters are there to help you get access to companies you don't have referrals in. They're good for those from other states or countries, or from a different social class.

folkrav 5y ago

YMMV. I've doubled my salary in the last couple of years by following recruiter cold-calls, including once for a recruiter not affiliated to the company, and it obviously wasn't a pure waste of time for me.

decafninja 5y ago

Maybe it works for other (non-SWE) professions, and maybe it still works for the more conservative enterprise companies, but my experience is that for most Silicon Valley style tech companies, a referral might at best just let you skip the phone screen. Then it's the same leetcode circus show as anyone else. But yes, I agree with you that most third party recruiters suck. I'd say there are some very small boutique firms out there that don't suck though. Generally, the larger the recruiting agency, the shittier they are.

mkulinski 5y ago

Agreed - this is insane for software engineers to follow. Especially right now.

gigatexal 5y ago

Yup a referral is the most powerful ally one can have in getting hired.

emodendroket 5y ago

I have had some positive third-party recruiter experiences, but only after being referred by friends. On the other hand, there are other guys putting up fake listings to trick you into contacting them.

baash05 5y ago

I've landed almost every gig in the last 10 years through the same recruitment firm. They've been so awesome, and they have a finger on the pulse of the industry. I've had excellent dealings with recruiters over the years from various companies.

mihaaly 5y ago

Right! Additionally the "recruiters are also one of the best career resources you can find" was never true to me. The exact number out of close to hundred recruiter contacts is 0. As you said, using my network, be it tight or loose threads (colleagues to acquaintances or even the knowledge of an organization) helped me exclusively. Even the affiliated ones are problematic many times. My latest experience is a recruiter hired by the organization advising me to improve the cosmetics of my CV (i.e. lie about my past, exclude an incomplete but important education), organised the interview and gave an interview preparation with stale and generic 'advise' you can find on internet word by word, which was useless as the topic of the interview was something else and with someone else than predicted. They seemed to operated based on a script that was prepared to give the impression of caring and making actual work, however the content of the work was mere scheduling.

hngpt2 5y ago

This is the key to success. Even if you think a company is bad, but you have a good network that sends a referral your way, it will probably save you. If the job was good and you liked working there - and you had the right attitude - then it's your job. Recruiters and even companies make it harder for a resume to get to the hiring manager than it ever used to be.

dominotw 5y ago

> Companies always prioritize a strong referral, ignoring mediocre interview performance, and will even skip the reference checks so I don't have to bug my network. I've never found this to be true.