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I won the local election, but my township ignored the results and state law
- shadowgovt 5y agoOh, just outside of Harrisburg? Yeah not very surprising. That whole chunk of the state is a hot mess. Harrisburg is the city that famously bankrupted itself building a trash furnace, had to go into receivership, had a receiver appointed by the state, and then had that receiver flee the country.
- goelongo 5y ago
- stopping 5y agoThis post isn't about voter fraud.
- bananabiscuit 5y ago
- shalmanese 5y ago
- treeman79 5y ago
- colinmhayes 5y agoDid Trump not implore his vice president and successfully convince multiple senate and house reps to disenfranchise millions of voters in Arizona?
- treeman79 5y agoNo. Asking for recounts and investigations is normal behavior in close elections for both parties.
- colinmhayes 5y agoAnd when there was a vote to not recognize the electors for Arizona? That was normal?
- EarlKing 5y agoCorruption is endemic on both sides of the aisle. Please stop spreading bullshit.
- hedora 5y agoLook up the discrepancies between exit polls and official tallies in any US presidential election since 2000. Discrepancies are common and only happen in districts in swing states where the electronic machines that don't have paper trails. Every single case of a large discrepancy shows an error in favor of the Republican candidate. Similarly, Texas's Republican governor put out a bounty for documented evidence of voter fraud. The only pay out was for proof a Republican attempted to vote twice. It's well-established that Gore won Florida in 2000, and therefore should have been president. If this sort of thing really happens on both sides of the isle, how come there is no tangible evidence the Democrats thew an election this century?
- dang 5y agoPlease stick to the site guidelines. Perhaps you don't owe corrupt aisle-sides better, but you owe this community better if you're participating in it. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html
- IncRnd 5y agoThey also say there there was no voter fraud at the same time they call for reforms to stop fraud. If you read the bills you referenced you'll see they don't do what you have been told they do.
- rjbwork 5y agoThere is almost no voter fraud. And all verified instances I've read about have been from Trump/Republican voters. There does seem to be fairly common election fraud, though.
- mike_d 5y agoVoter fraud and voter supression are two different things. Fraud is I sneak into the booth and change your vote before it is counted. Suppression is stopping bus service on election day in the neighborhoods that don't vote how you want them to. Democrats are accused of fraud, but there are almost no cases of it happening (and they all end up being in favor of Republicans when they are found). Republicans use suppression so often that in 1965 a law was passed requiring them to get federal approval to make changes that impact voting, which unfortunately was overturned in 2013.
- mlac 5y agoSo what is the recourse?
- TameAntelope 5y agoI imagine you take it up with the PA governor, or more specifically PA's attorney general? Honestly, I'm not totally sure.
- kelp 5y agoI'm not a lawyer... but... You sue the town for violating state law. The town either settles, or you go to court, and if you win, the court compels them to comply with the law, and the town probably has to cover legal fees.
- f0e4c2f7 5y agoIf I remember right this happened to Michael Moore early in his life when he ran for local school board or something.
- alasdair_ 5y agoMoore’s story is kind of funny. He was still in high school and was sick of the principal. He had also just turned 18. So he went door to door to all the stoner kids, skateboarders and other young adults that also disliked the principal and got them sogned up to vote him in as a bloc. Then the older, more conservative types got wind of it and ended up fielding three candidates, all of whom split the vote allowing Moore to win. So in the end, he spent his last months of high school being the principal’s boss and being called “sir” instead of being yelled at for having his shirt untucked again.
- csee 5y agoSo no accountability for the corrupt officeholders? Just the taxpayers have to foot the legal bill?
- MatthewWilkes 5y ago
- legerdemain 5y agoThe hardcore political establishment is corrupt head to tail. It is corrupt in Silver Spring Township, Pennsylvania, it is corrupt down in the good town of Mechanicsburg, PA, it is corrupt in the whole of Cumberland County, and I swear it is rotten in these United States. Every day, I feel like we inch closer and closer to a rupture that will cannot be repaired without severe measures. The class of people who control Silver Spring Township are the same people who tell you what to think and how to vote nationwide.
- commandlinefan 5y agoAnd the same people who count the votes.
- Retric 5y agoCounting the votes is currently less important than deciding who can vote, and what they can vote for. Over 1% of the US population lives in non states. The majority of the US population lives in areas gerrymandered into irrelevance. Beyond that the vastly expanded definition of felon has eroded the ability for at least 5.1 million Americans to vote. Immigration is almost more a question of voting than anything else. Add in various forms of voter suppression and frankly Americans politics has almost completely been separated from the “will of the people.”
- throwaway6734 5y agoYour attitude is much more "corrupt" and corrosive than you accuse the "political establishment" of being
- yeetaccount5 5y ago
- ttybird2 5y agoKinda curious as to why you think so.
- bhouston 5y agoWhat are they hiding? That is what I would think. It isn't about him being a libertarian, but rather the township doesn't want oversight.
- seventytwo 5y agoWas just about to post this. It’s suspicious. I wonder who this CPA is that they hire… someone who can cook books?
- EvRev 5y agoNow I am interested in who the CPA is. Wonder if he is taking new clients? What other interests does he represent? If I was in this situation I would want to talk directly to the CPA to try and understand the situation a lot more.
- the_lonely_road 5y agoNo CPA is going to discuss anything at all about a client with any 3rd party unless legally compelled.
- arcticfox 5y agoIn this case, I'm pretty sure the elected auditor would count as part of the "client" unless there was some seriously shady business going on.
- monkeydreams 5y agoProbably more that they can control the scope of any audit the CPA firm manages. The power to scope inquiry is often underestimated.
- throwaway0a5e 5y agoProbably massive amounts of wasteful spending that's dolled out in ways that are borderline graft. Cool toys for the PD, boondoggle projects assigned to politically connected contractors, etc, etc. Basically all the typical mismanagement you get somewhere that is either rich enough to afford it or dysfunctional enough nobody expects anything else.
- yeetaccount5 5y agoCan’t read the whole thread since Twitter hijacks my screen, sounds like shenanigans from the local gov’t though. Edit: this is a serious concern, I can’t read what is being posted.
- imgabe 5y agoI didn't have that problem. Do you have a Twitter account? Twitter sometimes nags anonymous users to log in. Here's an unrolled version of the thread on threadreader: https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1486834885964832770.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1486834885964832770.html
- yeetaccount5 5y ago
- chrisseaton 5y ago> I like to complain about arbitrary walls to content Please don't - it's against the rules in this community.
- DamnGirl 5y ago
- yeetaccount5 5y ago
- ghostly_s 5y agoWhy is this guy posting on twitter and not raising this with the state gov?
- Slix 5y agoThe Cumberland County website lists "Kevin Gaughen" and other names under "Bureau of Elections > Elected Officials". https://www.ccpa.net/2355/Silver-Spring-Township https://www.ccpa.net/2355/Silver-Spring-Township
- gruez 5y agoIf you read the second tweet in the thread, the guy mentions that he already got a certificate that he won the elections from the Bureau of Elections. Knowing that, I don't really see the point in contacting him.
- MattGaiser 5y agoLocal politics is absurdly corrupt in many cases as nobody pays attention.
- myko 5y agoYep. ~10 years ago the case this book is about came to national attention: https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Mafia-Brutality-Consent-Decrees-ebook/dp/B07CPZGVB6 https://www.amazon.com/Blue-Mafia-Brutality-Consent-Decrees-... It talks about local PD and politicians protecting individuals from consequences and sweeping their crimes under the rug. Sadly it is more common than folks think, a similar thing happened at my HS (also in Ohio, a similar small town) in 2002.
- technothrasher 5y agoBack in the 1980s, my father was a selectman of our little town (Many New England towns have a board of selectmen instead of a mayor, for those who aren't familiar). The selectmen were also honorary members of the police, and the employment application for police officers asked if you would ever arrest a member of a town selectman's family. If you answered, "Yes", you didn't get the job. For this and other reasons, after my dad's single term as selectman, he vowed never to be involved in politics again.
- thr0wawayf00 5y agoLocal politics is also absurdly boring which, I would argue, is why nobody pays attention. It's such an inconvenience to participate in the local political process because we're so used to the theatre that is Federal politics. I mean honestly, can we all name the members of our city council, our mayor, etc.? Our culture is so addicted to stimulation that we just don't want to spend time on something as boring and banal as a city council meeting.
- e4e78a06 5y agoThat's because local politics is dedicated mostly to establishing inane bureaucratic blockers for policies that would benefit everyone except the existing homeowners in the city. My city council recently spent until 1am debating zoning regulations for California's new ADU law instead of doing the sane thing and just letting people build ADUs.
- ipsin 5y agoIt's interesting that there were over 200 write-in votes, and no official candidate? I wonder why the write-in campaign. Fees or signature requirements? https://www.ccpa.net/DocumentCenter/View/38413/Unofficial-Summary-Report https://www.ccpa.net/DocumentCenter/View/38413/Unofficial-Su... I would hope that the PA Attorney General would take an interest in getting him seated.
- maxerickson 5y agoReads like you can just make an oath in front of a notary public (no need to have the supervisors supervise or anything): https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&yr=1933&sessInd=0&smthLwInd=0&act=69&chpt=5&sctn=1&subsctn=0 https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm... The hired accountant does get most of the powers: https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&yr=1933&sessInd=0&smthLwInd=0&act=69&chpt=9&sctn=17&subsctn=0 https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm... But not the power to set compensation for the township supervisors: The board of auditors shall determine the compensations for the current year authorized in section 606 for supervisors employed by the township. https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm?txtType=HTM&yr=1933&sessInd=0&smthLwInd=0&act=69&chpt=9&sctn=1&subsctn=0 https://www.legis.state.pa.us/cfdocs/legis/LI/uconsCheck.cfm...
- aahortwwy 5y agoI wonder if supervisor compensation can be determined for the current year without a quorum of auditors?
- maxerickson 5y ago2 is a quorum, so he and the guy he talked too could do it. Maybe not this year, but next year. I didn't go look up the rule listed there, it might be pretty narrow.
- BurningFrog 5y agoFrom what I hear, you can't fight city hall.
- alasdair_ 5y agoBeing the person in charge of deciding if city hall gets paid is one strategy that probably works.
- the_only_law 5y agoMan I tell you HN comments just keep getting more and more intelligent.
- dang 5y ago"Please don't sneer, including at the rest of the community." It's reliably a marker of bad comments and worse threads. https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html HN is a statistical distribution across a wide spectrum. The only thing that helps is to make sure your own contributions raise the median quality, rather than dragging it down further.
- giantg2 5y agoThis doesn't surprise me at all. If you're reading and you're really determined to overcome corruption, you need to document everything. Getting the other auditor on board would be good too. Make sure you assert that the privilege of holding office is yours, provide the certificate, and show them the laws. If they still deny you the authority and position, then look up a PA law called official oppression. Report this crime to the police. If they decline to cite/arrest, look up the process for filing a private criminal complaint. The DA could still decline to prosecute, but you could appeal that decision to a judge. Good luck (my experience is nobody in the system actually cares and they'll side with the establishment).
- epgui 5y agoI don't know a lot about US law specifically, but this sounds a bit more like an administrative law issue than a criminal one... My instinct would be to look at filing an application for judicial review, no? (Note: IANAL)
- giantg2 5y agoIt's possible you could do both. If you show them the laws, cert, etc and they still deny you the position, then it does fit the definition of the criminal law. Could be hard to prosecute depending on the exact response.
- cormacrelf 5y agoWhich criminal law? See my comment (sibling); failure to perform a public duty is not a crime in itself. There could easily be crimes that are written to address these kinds of scenarios, but you would have to specify which ones. (Edit: oh, OC points out "official oppression" in PA. )
- cormacrelf 5y agoYou're pretty much on it, this set of facts is almost identical to the facts in the OG judicial review case, Marbury v Madison, save for the specific laws in question. If there is something in the laws that requires the Board of Supervisors to cooperate in the swearing-in or otherwise, then you can ask a court to force them to do it. This is called an application for a writ of mandamus, which is a special court order for a public official to perform a duty that they are required by law to do. You'd think that'd be pointless, but it converts a violation of a random state law (with no specific penalties attached) into a potential violation of a court order, which attaches various coercive powers controlled by the judiciary. One of those powers is imprisonment, for example. To the untrained ear that does sound a bit like criminal punishment, and it really is pretty close. The overall scheme is that public officials must do their duty, lest they be told again by the judiciary, in which case they really must do it.
- Overtonwindow 5y agoBe thankful for your government, it's the best that money can buy.
- skeeter2020 5y ago
- dev_tty01 5y agohttps://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1486834885964832770.html https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1486834885964832770.html
- doopy1 5y agoAll you have to do is scroll down, it's not any different than reading an article.
- riffic 5y agoIt could have been a blog post. Twitter enforces a login wall to read this kind of content.
- nullc 5y agoTwitter is now making many people register an account in order to scroll down.
- gspr 5y agoI certainly read the whole thread in an un-logged-in incognito tab.
- fortran77 5y agoWhy did you comment on a Hacker News linked item that you've decided not to read, just to tell us that you're not going to read it?
- cap10morgan 5y ago[flagged]
- twofornone 5y agoLibertarians are not anarchists. I don't understand the origin of this pervasive conflation.
- Ancapistani 5y ago> Libertarians are not anarchists. Some of us are, but it’s a vanishingly small fraction. Those of us who are also tend to be more pragmatic than the common conception of what “anarchist” represents.
- sofixa 5y agoSome forms of libertarians, especially in the US, overlap almost to being identical with anarcho-capitalists, which is a type of anarchism. Libertarian can mean a lot of different things depending on the person, but few of them seem appropriate for government office.
- Flankk 5y agoAnarchism is synonymous with libertarian socialism. They are Marxists and seek to abolish capitalism. In the mid-20th century, right-libertarian proponents of anarcho-capitalism and minarchism co-opted the term libertarian to advocate laissez-faire capitalism and strong private property rights such as in land, infrastructure and natural resources. The latter is the dominant form of libertarianism in the United States, where it advocates civil liberties, natural law, free-market capitalism and a major reversal of the modern welfare state.[1] [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Libertarianism
- cap10morgan 5y agoThey think they aren’t, but it’s yet another thing they’re confused about.
- chizhik-pyzhik 5y agoThis thread is like "google banned my account" but for real life
- ALittleLight 5y agoExcept this place has a better excuse in that they are a township of ~9k people where the board of supervisors get paid 3k a year (read: are not full time). I could totally imagine the part time small town government not really knowing how things should work and flying by the seat of their pants like this.
- eyelidlessness 5y agoThat’s an extraordinarily generous reading of the facts.
- victor9000 5y agoCaptain Obvious checking in, it's more like they really don't want an independent auditor. People focusing on their compensation are not looking deep enough, there's probably some preferred vendor or other grifting going on that leads back to a family member.
- throwawaygh 5y agoThe city has an independent auditor. It's a mid-sized firm in a sizable metro with a bunch of CPAs. Literally no incentive to lie on an audit of a tiny township with a miniscule budget.
- michaelt 5y agoThe likes on Enron, Worldcom and Bear Stearns all had "independent" audits. Everyone knows auditors only have the capacity to look at a small sample of records; and that difficult, demanding auditors don't get appointed next year.
- 5y ago
- tedunangst 5y agoFor a case where the write in winner went bad: https://www.inquirer.com/business/tax-collector-jeffrey-cutler-east-lampeter-pa-lancaster-county-20181211.html https://www.inquirer.com/business/tax-collector-jeffrey-cutl...
- throwawaygh 5y agoThe author should be sworn in and allowed to audit the township. Obviously. But, also, this is a perfect example of a Hanlon's razor situation. What's more likely: a) the board that doesn't know how to do its job particularly well and figures "we hired a CPA... ya know, a professional who knows how to audit... so thanks for volunteering but we don't need a sci-fi author atm. Thanks.", or b) there's some sort of vast conspiracy involving multiple elected officials, a mid-sized auditing firm with a dozen Principal CPAs half a state away, etc... to... what? steal funds from a tiny township with no meaningful tax base? And, not only that, but the township's administration thinks that not sitting the board of auditors is the least conspicuous way to cover things up. My interpretation of this thread is that the supervisors are almost certainly more incompetent than corrupt and that the author is making a mountain out of a mole hill. This is happening more and more often in local government [1]. We have a malcontent on our local school board who is convinced the entire system is Out To Get Her. In reality, she just has no god damn clue how anything works and has a wicked personality disorder. [1] https://www.inquirer.com/business/tax-collector-jeffrey-cutler-east-lampeter-pa-lancaster-county-20181211.html https://www.inquirer.com/business/tax-collector-jeffrey-cutl...
- duped 5y agoWhy hasn't he and the other auditors sued the township?
- eyelidlessness 5y agoI’m far from a (big L) Libertarian so I don’t have a bias in this (edit: I don’t have a bias in favor of this candidate, I have a bias against) but it sounds to me like there’s a corruption problem in Cumberland (wouldn’t surprise me, being from nearby and frequently passed through). And it sounds like a “looks like we protected democracy” cover was created for that. I do not want the author’s politics to succeed, but I definitely want to see this made right according to the votes cast.
- pensatoio 5y agoThe author’s politics? He’s an auditor. I can’t imagine a better spot in government for a libertarian than an auditor. Everybody wins.
- eyelidlessness 5y agoYes, I'm a communist. I do not want an auditor or any other position of power to be held by a Libertarian. Can we move past my disclosure of my own politics and acknowledge that I think based on the facts that he won and should be sworn in??
- anfilt 5y agoWithout getting too much into politics, I am pretty sure most libertarians would be pretty decent in an auditor position. (assuming the person has a least basic understanding of accounting). An auditor is not a policy based position. While most people think of Libertarian right on the basic political compass when thinking about libertarians. Lib-right and lib-left do have a fair amount of overlap on certain things. Although, considering your politics I can understand your dislike since most lib-right are quite pro business, but their politics are more than that.
- throwawaygh 5y ago
- russellbeattie 5y agoA "libertarian" who believes by definition in the idea that government is corrupt, accusing the government of being corrupt. How surprising. Corruption is a pretty low bar. Why don't we go for laziness? The supervisors are lazy. They don't want to deal with the bureaucracy of an auditor which basically has no powers when a CPA is hired. They also don't want to deal with the yearly random "informed citizen" who decides *this is the year* he's going to participate in local government, despite never having been in the local township offices before. There's a word for this type of idiot, but I can't find it right now.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- mschuster91 5y ago> They don't want to deal with the bureaucracy of an auditor which basically has no powers when a CPA is hired Your run-off-the-mill accountant will only check that there was enough budget, a quote, a confirmation from some admin staff that the service has been provided as agreed, a bill for that service referring to the quote, and a record from admin that the bill has been paid. The entire point of having an independently (!) elected auditor is to make sure that there are no shady deals going on - things like vendors excessively charging for services based upon golf-club deals with the mayor. > They also don't want to deal with the yearly random "informed citizen" who decides this is the year he's going to participate in local government, despite never having been in the local township offices before. Actually, these kind of "informed citizens" are those that actually serve the interests of society the best - they don't go and accept stuff simply because it has always been done so. They go in, dive deep and hold people accountable!
- lwb 5y agoI don't know, it seems pretty libertarian for a county/township to nullify state law when it deems the law unnecessary or bad. Different branches of libertarianism may disagree but in the end it's all about localism, no?
- throwawaygh 5y ago
- yessirwhatever 5y agoI'm not even sure what you're trying to say. State your opinion in clearly and concisely and refrain from personal attacks so that people consider what you're saying seriously.
- throwawaygh 5y agoOP is a troll who wants to run for higher political office and doesn't give a shit about auditing his small town.
- yessirwhatever 5y agoWhat made you reach that conclusion?
- throwawaygh 5y agoIt's a playbook that is being used across the country. On both sides of the political spectrum, btw. Local political office that no one cares enough to fight for is turning into the new platform for a kinda fucked up version of social media influencer. See also: substack.
- yessirwhatever 5y agoHow is local politics office turning into that? I don’t see where you’re coming from. Also, considering the number of people who are outraged at this, it seems that people clearly care about local political, don’t you think? What should I see on substack? Also, assume that OP is indeed a troll who won with 200 votes total via a keg, does that make what happened to him ok? Do you think that you’d feel differently if you lived in that town or was one of the voters? Even if the intentions of those who dismissed him was good, why is it bad to be skeptical of it? Why is it bad to be skeptical of those in a place of power? Edit: also considering the number of comments you’ve made on this post specifically, I’m genuinely wondering why is it this hill specifically that you’re willing to die on?
- known 5y ago
- markus_zhang 5y agoNever give politicians the benefit of doubts PERIOD.
- ztetranz 5y agoWow, it looks like the state of PA still uses ColdFusion.
- toyg 5y agoThis is one of those things that only happen in anglo-like systems. In more "napoleonic" systems, the State has direct oversight of this sort of thing. In Italy or France, if a local authority tried to pull something like this, the police would literally step in and disband it a day after. You can have disputes on the legality of the election, or confusion about who should take the seat afterwards, but you can't just hold elections and then ignore the result.
- 3pt14159 5y agoThis may sound strange to foreign ears, but I kinda like the ramshackle nature of local politics in Anglo systems. It feels more Bilbo Baggins. So long as the courts stay honest we can weather these minor outrages that crop up every so often.
- omginternets 5y agoTrue. As much as we like to gripe about administrative proceduralism (and it can be very irritating), it does address this problem quite well.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- ajnin 5y agoWell, I'm not that confident. If the "offender" happens to be friends with "the state", that is, the party in power, then it's very likely that not much will happen, the executive will be happy to let them be, the prosecutors, who are not independent, will ignore the problem, and the judiciary will have its hands tied. Stories of corrupt politicians enjoying years and years of pilfering of the public good are much more common in "napoleonic" systems, it feels. It's better to have a strong judiciary than a strong administrative police, imho.
- toyg 5y ago> Stories of corrupt politicians enjoying years and years of pilfering of the public good are much more common in "napoleonic" systems, it feels That's largely because "pilfering of the public good" is much more precisely defined in such systems. There is plenty of corruption in anglo systems too. In fact, having moved to England, I've become accustomed to a degree of impropriety I honestly did not expect. It's just that a series of behaviors that would be explicitly considered illegal where I come from, here belong to a grey area that may or may not ever be illuminated by lawsuits. Because oversight is extremely weak, one can get away very easily with administrative murder. It's easy to look honest when bad behavior is not considered dishonest.
- rasz 5y agoContact media, arrange TV crew/press to show up on the next Township meeting with you.
- sleepingadmin 5y agoImagine you live in a country where there is no democracy. The easiest and most likely thing to happen will be said government pretending there is democracy. "The people who cast the votes decide nothing. The people who count the votes decide everything." - Stalin. So even if you believe you live under democracy. You may not. In this case, OP's FPV discovered he doesn't live under democracy. Obviously this is just local election, which is often more powerful and more corrupt than a larger government. You now have to hope that the corrupt non-democractic government allows you? lol good luck.
- cherry9999 5y ago
- nitwit005 5y agoSeems like the obvious issue here is there's no mention of any attempt to reach out to county or state officials. The county certainly thinks he won.