19 ms·

I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice. My problem with mandates is where does it end? Why this mandate and not other mandates? Who gets to decide that?

peter422 5y ago
It ends with covid vaccines because that is the only pandemic that is currently raging across the globe. The politicians we elect democratically makes the decisions.
- robrorcroptrer 5y ago
  Could the global obesity epidemic not also be handled through mandates?
  - Guest42 5y ago
    True, I imagine that would be quite frightening and have a lot of data to support a number of initiatives that the population would vehemently disagree with. Even in grade school, I remembered dreading when they would have us run a mile as fast as we could and record the times.
  - generalenvelope 5y ago
    Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. These factors differ widely between individuals. I think there are mandates that could help make the disease less prevalent, but it is very much ingrained in our daily life, so I'm cynical as to the efficacy of such measures. It's very difficult to mandate behavioral (look at how many people don't even want to put a mask on) or environmental (think what foods are available in a region based on scarcity, culture etc - and yes this is a real factor in obesity) changes. A concise video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c
    - nobody9999 5y ago
      >Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. Obesity is not a disease. It is a condition defined as a Body Mass Index (BMI) of >30[0]. Yes, there are a variety of factors that contribute to a BMI >30, but like "tobacco use disorder," it's emphatically not a disease. Some obesity may be related to actual diseases, but obesity in itself isn't a disease. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
      - javagram 5y ago
        FYI, clicking on another page from your link states obesity is a ”serious chronic disease”. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html
      - generalenvelope 5y ago
        It wasn't my goal to argue nomenclature, but a disease is: "a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury." or "a particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people." (Oxford Languages) By this definition it makes sense to me to call obesity a disease. For what it's worth, I was trying to convey that obesity is far more complicated than many consider - the official definition may imply that you can just "lower BMI" and solve the problem. I also see immense value in understanding obesity as a disease in order to de-stigmatize it - you wouldn't tell someone with high blood pressure to "just relax", or imply they aren't trying hard enough to cure it - which is what a lot of the public stigma around weight related disease is effectively doing. Also, BMI when combined with waist circumference can help to correct issues with BMI to better understand your individual risk: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-depth/bmi-calculator/itt-20084938 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-de... https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-waist-correctly/ https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-wai...
  - VaxWithSex 5y ago
    You don't get fat, because your neighbour coughs on you.
  - aldebran 5y ago
    You becoming obese doesn’t affect me the way you catching Covid does. Yes obesity eats up healthcare resources as well but not to the degree and certainly not as quickly as Covid cases do.
    - lambdaba 5y ago
      Obesity is the #1 reason covid is a problem though. And metabolic syndrome, nearly the same thing.
      - aldebran 5y ago
        True but my colleague become obese doesn’t make me obese by working next to him. (Unless he insists on sharing all his snacks lol. Even then I have a choice)
        deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
  - alamortsubite 5y ago
    Fat taxes are a form of this. I think the primary difference is that they have strong economic incentives aligned against them. I don't see this as the case with vaccine and mask mandates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax
  - tyrrvk 5y ago
    You can't catch obesity from someone coughing in the same room as you. But to extrapolate further: Sugar taxes have been tried in countries - Mexico for one. I think there was massive backlash from CocaCola/Pepsi etc, for infringing on their freedom to make obscene profits. I seem to recall discussions here about some of the lawmakers finding Israeli spykits on their phones (the ones pushing for the sugar tax). edit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-soda-tax-advocates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-so...
    - ekanes 5y ago
      Quoting the NYT for anything related to Israel is likely biased.
      - ecdouvhr 5y ago
        No matter what one's stance is on Israel, or the Palestine question, it's hard to blame the actions of one company on the Israeli government.
        tyrrvk 5y ago
        I should have clarified NSO group. They are an Israeli company with many ex members of Israeli NSA (whatever it's called).
    - coryfklein 5y ago
      No, but on a higher meta-level it is contagious. Obesity is more prevalent in societies where high-caloric foods are more readily available. Now I'm more libertarian leaning myself so I wouldn't actually advocate for this, but if we mandated a cap on calorie-per-serving for "foods", you'd see a drastic drop in the availability of high carbohydrate foods (particularly sugar) which would essentially cause forced sugar-withdrawal in most of the population. A couple months later? Everyone's sugar-thermostats are reset, the lower-calorie food tastes nearly as good – if not better – and obesity rates would plummet. However, since we don't/can't coordinate such a thing on a national level, everyone gets exposed to constantly increasing carb content in their food, and maintaining a lower calorie diet requires significantly more effort. I can speak from personal experience, I simulated this on a personal level when I moved to South Korea for 2 years where sugar is nearly non-existent. As a modestly thin person I lost an additional 15-20 pounds while I was there without having to work hard or suffer with worse-tasting food (well, I did experience sugar withdrawal for the first couple months).
  - ouchjars 5y ago
    If you could avoid getting obese with two shots in the arm and wearing a piece of cloth every time you leave the house for a couple years.
    - josefx 5y ago
      - SheepSlapper 5y ago
        It's been a while since this was a "covid countermeasure", but how about food curfews! Government mandated intermittent fasting between the hours of 8pm and 8am :)
    - throwaway51235 5y ago
- BitwiseFool 5y ago
  I'm not so sure about this. Call me a cynic, or even a Libertarian (gasp!) but it is generally not in the nature of government to wind down an apparatus that they paid so much for once "the threat" has passed. Now that governments have the infrastructure for requiring and/or showing proof of vaccination, it really isn't a stretch to think they will want to keep that system and have it be readily available for the next pandemic, whatever it may be.
  - somedude895 5y ago
    Also, a lot of government employees' jobs now depend on keeping these systems in place in one form or another...
    - BitwiseFool 5y ago
      Indeed, and I also sense a lot of Department of Healths at the state level will seek to track the yearly flu-shoot with this system as well. Not necessarily mandating it for public participation, but as a public health measure. The amount of productivity lost due to the seasonal flu is substantial, and the amount of data that can be gleaned from such a database is too tantalizing to ignore.
      - javagram 5y ago
        FYI, departments of health have already been tracking vaccinations in a database for years before COVID. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq...
    - xadhominemx 5y ago
      Not really
    - rsynnott 5y ago
      I mean, it probably depends on where you are, but at least here (Ireland) this isn't true. The contact tracing and vaccination apparatus was run largely with people borrowed from other civil service departments, or hired as contractors. When the mass vaccination capability was stood down last year, they went back to their normal work and it took a while to start it back up again for boosters. Did your local government actually hire large numbers of new permanent employees to administer this? This is (a) rather unlikely and (b) very much something you can check.
- rhizome31 5y ago
  It would be more democratic if the people were making the decision themselves by directly voting the laws. With the elective system we delegate decision making to people we choose from a very limited pool of candidates which aren't selected democratically. In a way "elect democratically" is a bit of an oxymoron.
- SkyPuncher 5y ago
  I thought this last spring. Then, way too many people decided to refused to get vaccinated.
- tarboreus 5y ago
  I'm honestly jealous of your lack of cynicism.
lghh 5y ago
That's literally the case with every government-imposed rule in existence. You're asking a question that has been asked and answered 100 times. "Why seatbelts? Where does it end?" "Why can't I shoot someone? Where does it end?" etc etc
- rajup 5y ago
  Answered how? Each one of those were debated and we have agreed on some of these rules. I don’t think the debate for vaccine mandates has been settled though, much as some would like to see any discussion of it quelled.
jrodthree24 5y ago
I don't understand why people keep asking this like some kind of magic bullet. Obviously there is a governmental body that has the authority to do this wherever you are from. And in a democracy that governmental body will be acting based on the will of the people. Even if you disagree that the executive has that authority, the courts have the authority to interpret if they do. And the legislature ultimately has the authority to override it. In the United States if we all voted for it we could have mandates for every single vaccine ever created. But there is barely enough political will for this one. And that's only because COVID is much more of a threat than anything else at the moment.
- s1artibartfast 5y ago
  Is it that hard to understand that many people are uncomfortable or unclear where the the line is drawn between civil liberties and state powers/majority rule. You might say that covid mandates are clearly inside the lines, but that isn't a declaration of where the line is.
xadhominemx 5y ago
Well we just had a once in a century global pandemic that killed one million Americans and vaccines that work extremely well and there is no mandate - so I think the better question is what would it take for there to be a mandate?
_fat_santa 5y ago
What's aggravating is all the "feel good" policies that fly in the face of the current state of the pandemic. We have gotten to the point where numerous officials have said something along the lines of "vaccines won't protect you against getting Omicron, masks don't really do anything either". So you think. Ok, we have gotten to the point where these measures are ineffective, so lets do away with the measures. And that is precisely where you bump up against these "feel good" policies. We know masks don't really work, but lets keep mandating them because they give us the sense of security that they are doing something. We know vaccines don't prevent you from getting or spreading Covid but we feel like it does something, so mandate it anyways. I'm afraid that we are moving from "we need mandates to keep people safe" to "we need mandates to keep people feeling safe". In 20 years we're all still going to be wearing masks at the airport because "it makes people feel safer".
- boring_twenties 5y ago
  The good news is if you pay the $100 for TSA Pre-Check, you won't have to take your mask off to clear the checkpoint.
  - cbeley 5y ago
    They've been making me take my mask off for precheck still at SFO and LAX.
  - monksy 5y ago
    That is not true. They require you to remove your mask to verify your face for a few seconds, other than that you put it back on.
    - boring_twenties 5y ago
      That was my attempt at a joke, apparently unsuccessful.
- sofixa 5y ago
  Any more details on the "masks don't work thing"? It's news to me, and i don't see how that could have changed - masks, even cloth ones, but even more so for surgical and N95 types, drastically limit how much virus you spread when you're contagious; and especially N95 also offer some protection against catching it. Especially for crowded places, masks seem like a no brainer.
mgh2 5y ago
I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". This belief might be to blame for many of society's crises. https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale-4fecf8095812 https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale...
- someguy5344523 5y ago
  But it looks like the vaccines don't stop the spread of covid: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/
  - soperj 5y ago
    They stop the hospitals from filling up though.
    - Jimmc414 5y ago
      Tobacco kills 8 million of its users, annually. Why is their presence in ICU beds not a topic of concern?
      - mgh2 5y ago
        I will think because it is not contagious and does not affect the global economy as such
      - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
        Probably because that number is fairly stable over time. Beds exist for that load. A new load is a problem, because staffed hospital beds take time to create. It takes years to make a new nurse or doctor, for instance.
        rajin444 5y ago
        Why can’t we just group antivaxxers with smokers then? We’ve ignored the obesity problem for a long time and are taking 0 steps to correct after we’ve seen our health systems buckle in no small part due to it. If you’re in favor of mandates but not forced weight loss you’re just playing politics. Yes, one is easier than the other, but the magnitude of good done by reducing obesity dwarfs the good done by vaccines. If the US had ignored Covid and focused solely on obesity we would likely have been better off in terms of all cause mortality.
dehrmann 5y ago
The vaccine mandates are also getting a bit awkward because the justification was always that they protect others, but with omicron, that's a lot less true.
eli 5y ago
This sort of vague "slippery slope" argument can be applied to argue against almost anything. It is common and logical to regulate activities that could harm those around you. What cars are allowed on the road and who's allowed to drive them is carefully regulated because cars can kill or injure people. You can drive around your property with an unsafe vehicle but if you want to bring it on a public road, it needs to have working brakes and so on. Vaccine are similar because unvaccinated people are more likely to injure those around them. Who decides? My city recently created a vaccine mandate to dine indoors at a restaurant. It was decided by the city council and the mayor, same as any other law. I think most citizens support it, but if they didn't they have all the usual ways to make that known or overturn it.
donohoe 5y ago
I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. The estimate for COVID-19 is that roughly 70% to 85% of the population will need to be vaccinated to reach the herd immunity threshold. USA is at about 63% fully vaccinated (76% had at least one dose). where does it end? It ends when the the threat subsides. Why this mandate and not other mandates? This mandate related to COVID-19 which has killed (at least) 870,837 people in America, and 5,614,744 people worldwide. Who gets to decide that? The people you elect to represent you (for those of us with a democracy-like government) Sources: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how-much-of-the-population-will-need-to-be-vaccinated-until-the-pandemic-is-over/ https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how-much-of-the-populatio... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html
- parkingrift 5y ago
  >Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. They don't protect society at all. The herd immunity goal flew out the window with Delta and left the galaxy with Omicron. We will not ever eradicate Covid-19 with vaccination. >It ends when the the threat subsides. It should end right now, then. The threat has subsided. We have vaccines and other treatment programs.
  - beams_of_light 5y ago
    Eradication is not the goal. Making sure hospitals aren't overwhelmed with COVID patients is the goal. Catching COVID is potentially dangerous and often times results in long recovery window. Vaccination is harmless and works. The thread will never subside; this is a new virus we will have to live with for the rest of our lives - especially considering we can't seem to get everyone to do the right thing, even with government mandates.
    - donohoe 5y ago
      This! I should have said this, but they mail it.
fernandotakai 5y ago
>Why this mandate and not other mandates? i don't know about the US, but where i live there are actual vaccination mandates for diseases like polio and measles. you cannot go to school if you don't have the mandatory vaccines. covid vaccines are just another one that you need to take.
teawrecks 5y ago
"I'm not swinging my battleaxe around in crowded places by my own choice. My problem with prohibiting people from swinging battleaxes around in crowded places is, where does it end?"
1270018080 5y ago
It doesn't matter. Covid vaccine mandate -> good. You can end the thought there. No need to come up with a slippery slope doomsday scenario.
hogrider 5y ago
You are already under hundreds of health regulations or "mandates". Pasteurized milk, refrigerated meat, measles vaccine required at admision get to school is standard in a lot of places.

peter422 5y ago

It ends with covid vaccines because that is the only pandemic that is currently raging across the globe. The politicians we elect democratically makes the decisions.

robrorcroptrer 5y ago
Could the global obesity epidemic not also be handled through mandates?
- Guest42 5y ago
  True, I imagine that would be quite frightening and have a lot of data to support a number of initiatives that the population would vehemently disagree with. Even in grade school, I remembered dreading when they would have us run a mile as fast as we could and record the times.
- generalenvelope 5y ago
  Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. These factors differ widely between individuals. I think there are mandates that could help make the disease less prevalent, but it is very much ingrained in our daily life, so I'm cynical as to the efficacy of such measures. It's very difficult to mandate behavioral (look at how many people don't even want to put a mask on) or environmental (think what foods are available in a region based on scarcity, culture etc - and yes this is a real factor in obesity) changes. A concise video on the topic: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-ZC4rfSMq8c
  - nobody9999 5y ago
    >Obesity is a complicated disease that manifests through a variety of biological, behavioral, and environmental factors. Obesity is not a disease. It is a condition defined as a Body Mass Index (BMI) of >30[0]. Yes, there are a variety of factors that contribute to a BMI >30, but like "tobacco use disorder," it's emphatically not a disease. Some obesity may be related to actual diseases, but obesity in itself isn't a disease. [0] https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/adult/defining.html
    - javagram 5y ago
      FYI, clicking on another page from your link states obesity is a ”serious chronic disease”. https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html https://www.cdc.gov/obesity/about-obesity/index.html
    - generalenvelope 5y ago
      It wasn't my goal to argue nomenclature, but a disease is: "a disorder of structure or function in a human, animal, or plant, especially one that produces specific signs or symptoms or that affects a specific location and is not simply a direct result of physical injury." or "a particular quality, habit, or disposition regarded as adversely affecting a person or group of people." (Oxford Languages) By this definition it makes sense to me to call obesity a disease. For what it's worth, I was trying to convey that obesity is far more complicated than many consider - the official definition may imply that you can just "lower BMI" and solve the problem. I also see immense value in understanding obesity as a disease in order to de-stigmatize it - you wouldn't tell someone with high blood pressure to "just relax", or imply they aren't trying hard enough to cure it - which is what a lot of the public stigma around weight related disease is effectively doing. Also, BMI when combined with waist circumference can help to correct issues with BMI to better understand your individual risk: https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-depth/bmi-calculator/itt-20084938 https://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/obesity/in-de... https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-waist-correctly/ https://www.barbellmedicine.com/blog/how-to-measure-your-wai...
- VaxWithSex 5y ago
  You don't get fat, because your neighbour coughs on you.
- aldebran 5y ago
  You becoming obese doesn’t affect me the way you catching Covid does. Yes obesity eats up healthcare resources as well but not to the degree and certainly not as quickly as Covid cases do.
  - lambdaba 5y ago
    Obesity is the #1 reason covid is a problem though. And metabolic syndrome, nearly the same thing.
    - aldebran 5y ago
      True but my colleague become obese doesn’t make me obese by working next to him. (Unless he insists on sharing all his snacks lol. Even then I have a choice)
      - deleted 5y ago
        [deleted]
- alamortsubite 5y ago
  Fat taxes are a form of this. I think the primary difference is that they have strong economic incentives aligned against them. I don't see this as the case with vaccine and mask mandates. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fat_tax
- tyrrvk 5y ago
  You can't catch obesity from someone coughing in the same room as you. But to extrapolate further: Sugar taxes have been tried in countries - Mexico for one. I think there was massive backlash from CocaCola/Pepsi etc, for infringing on their freedom to make obscene profits. I seem to recall discussions here about some of the lawmakers finding Israeli spykits on their phones (the ones pushing for the sugar tax). edit: https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-soda-tax-advocates.html https://www.nytimes.com/2017/02/11/technology/hack-mexico-so...
  - ekanes 5y ago
    Quoting the NYT for anything related to Israel is likely biased.
    - ecdouvhr 5y ago
      No matter what one's stance is on Israel, or the Palestine question, it's hard to blame the actions of one company on the Israeli government.
      - tyrrvk 5y ago
        I should have clarified NSO group. They are an Israeli company with many ex members of Israeli NSA (whatever it's called).
  - coryfklein 5y ago
    No, but on a higher meta-level it is contagious. Obesity is more prevalent in societies where high-caloric foods are more readily available. Now I'm more libertarian leaning myself so I wouldn't actually advocate for this, but if we mandated a cap on calorie-per-serving for "foods", you'd see a drastic drop in the availability of high carbohydrate foods (particularly sugar) which would essentially cause forced sugar-withdrawal in most of the population. A couple months later? Everyone's sugar-thermostats are reset, the lower-calorie food tastes nearly as good – if not better – and obesity rates would plummet. However, since we don't/can't coordinate such a thing on a national level, everyone gets exposed to constantly increasing carb content in their food, and maintaining a lower calorie diet requires significantly more effort. I can speak from personal experience, I simulated this on a personal level when I moved to South Korea for 2 years where sugar is nearly non-existent. As a modestly thin person I lost an additional 15-20 pounds while I was there without having to work hard or suffer with worse-tasting food (well, I did experience sugar withdrawal for the first couple months).
- ouchjars 5y ago
  If you could avoid getting obese with two shots in the arm and wearing a piece of cloth every time you leave the house for a couple years.
  - josefx 5y ago
    - SheepSlapper 5y ago
      It's been a while since this was a "covid countermeasure", but how about food curfews! Government mandated intermittent fasting between the hours of 8pm and 8am :)
  - throwaway51235 5y ago
BitwiseFool 5y ago
I'm not so sure about this. Call me a cynic, or even a Libertarian (gasp!) but it is generally not in the nature of government to wind down an apparatus that they paid so much for once "the threat" has passed. Now that governments have the infrastructure for requiring and/or showing proof of vaccination, it really isn't a stretch to think they will want to keep that system and have it be readily available for the next pandemic, whatever it may be.
- somedude895 5y ago
  Also, a lot of government employees' jobs now depend on keeping these systems in place in one form or another...
  - BitwiseFool 5y ago
    Indeed, and I also sense a lot of Department of Healths at the state level will seek to track the yearly flu-shoot with this system as well. Not necessarily mandating it for public participation, but as a public health measure. The amount of productivity lost due to the seasonal flu is substantial, and the amount of data that can be gleaned from such a database is too tantalizing to ignore.
    - javagram 5y ago
      FYI, departments of health have already been tracking vaccinations in a database for years before COVID. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/programs/iis/resources-refs/faq...
  - xadhominemx 5y ago
    Not really
  - rsynnott 5y ago
    I mean, it probably depends on where you are, but at least here (Ireland) this isn't true. The contact tracing and vaccination apparatus was run largely with people borrowed from other civil service departments, or hired as contractors. When the mass vaccination capability was stood down last year, they went back to their normal work and it took a while to start it back up again for boosters. Did your local government actually hire large numbers of new permanent employees to administer this? This is (a) rather unlikely and (b) very much something you can check.
rhizome31 5y ago
It would be more democratic if the people were making the decision themselves by directly voting the laws. With the elective system we delegate decision making to people we choose from a very limited pool of candidates which aren't selected democratically. In a way "elect democratically" is a bit of an oxymoron.
SkyPuncher 5y ago
I thought this last spring. Then, way too many people decided to refused to get vaccinated.
tarboreus 5y ago
I'm honestly jealous of your lack of cynicism.

lghh 5y ago

That's literally the case with every government-imposed rule in existence. You're asking a question that has been asked and answered 100 times. "Why seatbelts? Where does it end?" "Why can't I shoot someone? Where does it end?" etc etc

rajup 5y ago
Answered how? Each one of those were debated and we have agreed on some of these rules. I don’t think the debate for vaccine mandates has been settled though, much as some would like to see any discussion of it quelled.

jrodthree24 5y ago

I don't understand why people keep asking this like some kind of magic bullet. Obviously there is a governmental body that has the authority to do this wherever you are from. And in a democracy that governmental body will be acting based on the will of the people. Even if you disagree that the executive has that authority, the courts have the authority to interpret if they do. And the legislature ultimately has the authority to override it. In the United States if we all voted for it we could have mandates for every single vaccine ever created. But there is barely enough political will for this one. And that's only because COVID is much more of a threat than anything else at the moment.

s1artibartfast 5y ago
Is it that hard to understand that many people are uncomfortable or unclear where the the line is drawn between civil liberties and state powers/majority rule. You might say that covid mandates are clearly inside the lines, but that isn't a declaration of where the line is.

xadhominemx 5y ago

Well we just had a once in a century global pandemic that killed one million Americans and vaccines that work extremely well and there is no mandate - so I think the better question is what would it take for there to be a mandate?

_fat_santa 5y ago

What's aggravating is all the "feel good" policies that fly in the face of the current state of the pandemic. We have gotten to the point where numerous officials have said something along the lines of "vaccines won't protect you against getting Omicron, masks don't really do anything either". So you think. Ok, we have gotten to the point where these measures are ineffective, so lets do away with the measures. And that is precisely where you bump up against these "feel good" policies. We know masks don't really work, but lets keep mandating them because they give us the sense of security that they are doing something. We know vaccines don't prevent you from getting or spreading Covid but we feel like it does something, so mandate it anyways. I'm afraid that we are moving from "we need mandates to keep people safe" to "we need mandates to keep people feeling safe". In 20 years we're all still going to be wearing masks at the airport because "it makes people feel safer".

boring_twenties 5y ago
The good news is if you pay the $100 for TSA Pre-Check, you won't have to take your mask off to clear the checkpoint.
- cbeley 5y ago
  They've been making me take my mask off for precheck still at SFO and LAX.
- monksy 5y ago
  That is not true. They require you to remove your mask to verify your face for a few seconds, other than that you put it back on.
  - boring_twenties 5y ago
    That was my attempt at a joke, apparently unsuccessful.
sofixa 5y ago
Any more details on the "masks don't work thing"? It's news to me, and i don't see how that could have changed - masks, even cloth ones, but even more so for surgical and N95 types, drastically limit how much virus you spread when you're contagious; and especially N95 also offer some protection against catching it. Especially for crowded places, masks seem like a no brainer.

mgh2 5y ago

I rather think of vaccination as a responsibility toward your fellow citizens, rather than a "choice". This belief might be to blame for many of society's crises. https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale-4fecf8095812 https://trendguardian.medium.com/free-will-a-rich-fairy-tale...

someguy5344523 5y ago
But it looks like the vaccines don't stop the spread of covid: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/labs/pmc/articles/PMC8481107/
- soperj 5y ago
  They stop the hospitals from filling up though.
  - Jimmc414 5y ago
    Tobacco kills 8 million of its users, annually. Why is their presence in ICU beds not a topic of concern?
    - mgh2 5y ago
      I will think because it is not contagious and does not affect the global economy as such
    - amanaplanacanal 5y ago
      Probably because that number is fairly stable over time. Beds exist for that load. A new load is a problem, because staffed hospital beds take time to create. It takes years to make a new nurse or doctor, for instance.
      - rajin444 5y ago
        Why can’t we just group antivaxxers with smokers then? We’ve ignored the obesity problem for a long time and are taking 0 steps to correct after we’ve seen our health systems buckle in no small part due to it. If you’re in favor of mandates but not forced weight loss you’re just playing politics. Yes, one is easier than the other, but the magnitude of good done by reducing obesity dwarfs the good done by vaccines. If the US had ignored Covid and focused solely on obesity we would likely have been better off in terms of all cause mortality.

dehrmann 5y ago

The vaccine mandates are also getting a bit awkward because the justification was always that they protect others, but with omicron, that's a lot less true.

eli 5y ago

This sort of vague "slippery slope" argument can be applied to argue against almost anything. It is common and logical to regulate activities that could harm those around you. What cars are allowed on the road and who's allowed to drive them is carefully regulated because cars can kill or injure people. You can drive around your property with an unsafe vehicle but if you want to bring it on a public road, it needs to have working brakes and so on. Vaccine are similar because unvaccinated people are more likely to injure those around them. Who decides? My city recently created a vaccine mandate to dine indoors at a restaurant. It was decided by the city council and the mayor, same as any other law. I think most citizens support it, but if they didn't they have all the usual ways to make that known or overturn it.

donohoe 5y ago

I'm vaccinated and boostered by my own choice Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. The estimate for COVID-19 is that roughly 70% to 85% of the population will need to be vaccinated to reach the herd immunity threshold. USA is at about 63% fully vaccinated (76% had at least one dose). where does it end? It ends when the the threat subsides. Why this mandate and not other mandates? This mandate related to COVID-19 which has killed (at least) 870,837 people in America, and 5,614,744 people worldwide. Who gets to decide that? The people you elect to represent you (for those of us with a democracy-like government) Sources: https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how-much-of-the-population-will-need-to-be-vaccinated-until-the-pandemic-is-over/ https://health.clevelandclinic.org/how-much-of-the-populatio... https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html

parkingrift 5y ago
>Great! The problem is that vaccines don't protect society unless a critical-mass of people are vaccinated. They don't protect society at all. The herd immunity goal flew out the window with Delta and left the galaxy with Omicron. We will not ever eradicate Covid-19 with vaccination. >It ends when the the threat subsides. It should end right now, then. The threat has subsided. We have vaccines and other treatment programs.
- beams_of_light 5y ago
  Eradication is not the goal. Making sure hospitals aren't overwhelmed with COVID patients is the goal. Catching COVID is potentially dangerous and often times results in long recovery window. Vaccination is harmless and works. The thread will never subside; this is a new virus we will have to live with for the rest of our lives - especially considering we can't seem to get everyone to do the right thing, even with government mandates.
  - donohoe 5y ago
    This! I should have said this, but they mail it.

fernandotakai 5y ago

>Why this mandate and not other mandates? i don't know about the US, but where i live there are actual vaccination mandates for diseases like polio and measles. you cannot go to school if you don't have the mandatory vaccines. covid vaccines are just another one that you need to take.

teawrecks 5y ago

"I'm not swinging my battleaxe around in crowded places by my own choice. My problem with prohibiting people from swinging battleaxes around in crowded places is, where does it end?"

1270018080 5y ago

It doesn't matter. Covid vaccine mandate -> good. You can end the thought there. No need to come up with a slippery slope doomsday scenario.

hogrider 5y ago

You are already under hundreds of health regulations or "mandates". Pasteurized milk, refrigerated meat, measles vaccine required at admision get to school is standard in a lot of places.