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Ask HN: Is the past disappearing on the web?

569 points by dusted 5y ago

I have the habit of looking at the date of things I consume online, it gives me a sense of relevance and context, both when I'm looking for things that are "from now" but more importantly when I'm looking for things given a temporal context, for instance, programming for an old compiler, finding out how to do something with an old piece of hardware or electronics. I feel like I'm encountering more and more sites and articles where I can't seem to find the date. Google will return irrelevant results from today rather than relevant results from 10 years ago. I feel it's getting worse, is it just me?

steinuil 5y ago
I think Google prioritizes newer content because AFAIK modifying the date of a page to make it look like it's been published more recently is a common SEO trick.
jollybean 5y ago
I sense there might be a bit of a business model here for companies that actually do want to 'archive' stuff. The company would take a bunch of arbitrary content and do minimal presentation for it, and host it, forever. Basically 'hands off archiving'. I'll bet a lot of companies would be interested in this.
lovecg 5y ago
What’s more insidious is sites that do include a date, but silently edit the old content over time anyway. NYTimes is famous for this, but I’m sure others do it too. We’re retreating from a world of hard record keeping back to a sort of an oral history tradition where the past is flexible.
masswerk 5y ago
I think, this started already at the height of the Web 2.0, when Google started to favour more recent (often copy-and-paste) blog content over older content, regardless of prestige or authority. If I'm not mistaken, age and/or recent update has been now officially part of the algorithm for quite a while.
samwillis 5y ago
> I feel like I'm encountering more and more sites and articles where I can't seem to find the date. It seems to me that its become standard practice on marketing type blogs for corporate websites to remove the date from their posts. I think its because (from personal experience) the company will go though a burst of "blog productivity" create a load of content but then not touch it for years, they don't want that content to look out of date or their website to look stagnant. Removing the date from their posts, or any other content, hides how old it is and therefore obscures how active they are at crating new content. Most companies try to use their blogs to attract new customers, a new customer may visit their website once or twice and will never see the blog again, it's not important that they do. They don't want it to look stale. As a counter example, an interesting thread from yesterday [0] was about how CloudFlare use their blog not as a marketing tool but for technical content and attracting employees. They very regulally use their blog, and so keep the date on it showing how fresh it is. 0: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30070422 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30070422
- lvncelot 5y ago
  This is absolutely infuriating when it's meant to be informative, especially about something in a fast-changing landscape, like how-tos on Kubernetes, for instance.
  - pxtail 5y ago
    Very easy solution which I'm using when searching for something with expiry date is to look for date first and if it's not there then immediately leave site and not even bother to read anything there, if this is regular practice and domain frequently is at the top then after few times I'm just not visiting it anymore.
  - indigochill 5y ago
    > like how-tos on Kubernetes Honestly although I've occasionally derived benefit from these, I think I'm reaching a tipping point where I feel the plethora of how-to articles with their ads and newsletter pop-ups and everything are less productive than just some plain old documentation and taking the time to fundamentally understand the tech so that I no longer need the how-to. Mainly because I trust Kubernetes to keep their documentation up-to-date but who knows how current a random how-to article is, never mind the marketing bloat they're usually polluted with.
sillysaurusx 5y ago
One way to date a post is to copy the url into https://archive.org/ https://archive.org/. But I've shared similar frustrations, yes.
- boomboomsubban 5y ago
  A plugin that either automatically or on requests checks sites for the oldest known archive date would be interesting, though I worry it'd both encourage blocking IA bots and tax their resources.
throwawayacc2 5y ago
I’d imagine it’s a little bit of both to be honest. There’s definitely algorithmic prioritisation for new content but I think it’s also a bit of a “seek and ye shall find” moment happening. As an anecdote, very recently I had the opposite thing happening. I was researching something about React and noticed one of the comments ( still applicable actually! ) was from 2015. My head exploded when I realised 2015 is actually 7 years ago so for a short time afterwards I just kept noticing old comments or old content everywhere.
- Cthulhu_ 5y ago
  I hope things like React will just remain relevant for a long time. I'm currently doing a project in React and Go, and for both, things written five+ years ago are still relevant, and will remain so. The Go blog, for example, is a really good resource where posts about e.g. error handling [0] from 2011 are still relevant and essential knowledge today. Instead of replacing it with something new (they tried), it's just appended to [1] but the existing post is still relevant and required reading. [0] https://go.dev/blog/error-handling-and-go https://go.dev/blog/error-handling-and-go [1] https://go.dev/blog/go1.13-errors https://go.dev/blog/go1.13-errors
gbuk2013 5y ago
I think this is partly a second-order consequence of the reasonable expectation that, due to the rate of innovation and general churn in technology, computer-related information goes stale quickly and hence more recent sources should be prioritised. Having a date stamp on the page then becomes a liability (I for one am guilty of adding a current year number to my search terms for some queries to try to get more accurate results). Another reason might be that SEO got really good several years ago so older content just can't compete.
varispeed 5y ago
I find myself more and more using DDG. When I use Google I am mostly finding spam nowadays. Even if I try to filter results by date or add very specific keywords, I get mostly garbage. I have a feeling that also results that don't support current narratives are disappearing from search. Now when I find something useful, I am now bookmarking it where I didn't have to do that a year or so ago.
- Duneode 5y ago
  Do you use DDG for code related searches? If so do you have any advice on how you search because I can't seem to get relevant results with that engine 70% of the time. Usually when I search to debug issues Google has a way better contextual understanding of what I'm looking for, whilst DDG would love to show me the official docs page or something. It does seem like DDG works for a lot of people though so I'm sure I have to rethink how I am searching and what keywords to use.
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    See my answer next to your. My experience too is that DDG is slightly different but just as useless as Google. Use Kagi (or even marginalia although that might take some getting used to if you didn't use engines before Google.) Use quoted strings for what you want exact matches for. Terminate quotes before terms you are usure about and maybe even remove them - in particular if it is local variable names, dates, folder paths etc. Sometimes this work in DDG to but do yourself a favour and test out Kagi. (No, I'm not paid to write this but I can admit I have been heavily encouraged by Google over the last decade and Ddg over the last three years to write about how painfully broken they are.)
    - Multicomp 5y ago
      I think I will be subscribing to kagi for their better code search alone. Also not paid etc just a happy user
      - skinkestek 5y ago
comboy 5y ago
I remember checking caching headers to learn about content date at some point. It's not just you. Also sites being gone and content getting lost. I think by now pretty much everything text should just not disappear anymore, and we seem to only have web archive which is doing something right (google cache seemed to have lost its persistence at some point but I may be imagining it because that's like 2 data points). I wish web archive would skip videos and instead fetch more obscure websites but I'm guessing that being able to tell what's spam and what is not is not easy. Shared distributed history cache for visited websites could be nice but within a short time I spent thinking about it I couldn't figure out a way in which this could work that would make me install it myself.
fireflymetavrse 5y ago
Also, youtube videos sometimes don't have posting date in their description, not sure why. And I hate when platforms use contextual time like '1 year ago' instead of posting date.
- Hard_Space 5y ago
  This is very annoying. I write for an AI site, and have requested a change to the CMS, which changes the publication date to the 'updated' date, leaving no visible evidence of the original date behind. If you open up the HTML, the original date is in there as a token, but the casual reader won't know, and Google is annoyingly unpredictable as to whether it will display the date in SERPS (it almost always knows the date, whether it shows it or not). I have taken now to including 'Original publication date' as a codicil in my pieces.
- funwares 5y ago
  Could you share an example of a YouTube video that does not have an upload date? I watch quite a lot of YouTube and very frequently look up the date that videos were uploaded. I've never found this information to be missing.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - albert_e 5y ago
    I stumbled across this recently and was puzzled. If I find that link / another example I will share here. <placeholder> But this definitely is a feature of YouTube where content creators have an option to hide the date. I googled and found the documentation for this feature.
    - exikyut 5y ago
      https://support.google.com/youtube/thread/4006094/how-can-i-hide-the-date-the-video-was-published https://support.google.com/youtube/thread/4006094/how-can-i-...: > Q: How can I hide the date the video was published? (Posted 4/12/19) > A: That is not an option that is available.*
mot0rola 5y ago
yeah, this annoys me as well. although maybe not intention, appears deceitful. actually, maybe this could be useful for blockchain tech. i don't know of another way you can check the date on a webpage from frontend?
skinkestek 5y ago
> Google will return irrelevant results from today rather than relevant results from 10 years ago. Tip: leave Google behind for now. That site has the last few years been very useful but only in the same way as my very cheap electrical saw: because I didn't have access to anything better. For someone who has tried good tools like Festo, Milwaukee, Hitachi or old Google it is just a painful reminder of the past and how good life used to be. It works but hasn't sparked joy for close to a decade. After kagi and marginalia came into my life my life has improved significantly. Note: I'm not saying Googlers are evil or dumb now but I will point out that engineers there have incentives stacked against them.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  What’s better than Google?
  - skinkestek 5y ago
    Kagi for serious stuff (work, health). I've no idea how since they build mostly on Google and Bing but something they do makes an enormous difference. Marginalia for fun stuff.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      > Our searching includes anonymized requests to traditional search indexes like Google and Bing as well as vertical sources like Wikipedia and DeepL or other APIs. We also have our own non-commercial index (Teclis), news index (TinyGem), and an AI for instant answers. Kagi seems to use both Google and bing results and will cost a minimum of $10 a month. Seems like the worst of all worlds to me. It’s a good option I suppose for those who want to pay.
      - skinkestek 5y ago
        That's the magic part, it uses Bing and Google but manages to get good results! I've recently seen queries answered on Kagi that returns utter rubbish when I paste the exact same queries into Google or DDG.
codeptualize 5y ago
Yes, and even worse; I have a strong suspicion some websites (automatically) update the date in titles and other places. Especially "best [product] in [year]" articles and lists, they somehow always are about the current year, even in early January, and even if they are only about outdated things.. The crap dirty tricks SEO content does seem to work quite well atm. It's probably pretty hard to determine whether something is relevant or not.
- malka 5y ago
  I am slowly starting to consider that on the internet NOTHING is relevant, and EVERYTHING is manipulated.
  - codeptualize 5y ago
    You are not wrong... Getting attention matters, it's lucrative
  - shime 5y ago
    Some essays stand the test of time, though. Not everything is irrelevant, but I'd say 99% is. The bar for publishing is very very low.
- emsign 5y ago
  I've definitely seen sites simply showing the current date at a place where you'd normally expect the article's original publishing date.
marginalia_nu 5y ago
Google has a pretty big recency bias. From a content producer-perspective it makes sense, if you put up new content you want to see traffic to that content. From a consumer perspective it's questionable at best. Given the Lindy-effect, odds are the quality of old content is higher than average. I also do kinda think we should be thinking more about what legacy we leave than we presently do. HTML has some serious problems with that regard, especially in terms of link rot, and especially now that we treat it as a way to build platforms. Archive.org is great and all, but is it enough? How will SPAs fare when the backend server is down in 30 years? How much value will be lost?
- southerntofu 5y ago
  > HTML has some serious problems with that regard I think the problem is not with HTML but with HTTP as location-addressed protocol. For future-proofing, and DDOS/censorship mitigation, content-addressed storage (DAT/IPFS/Torrent) makes sense. I would love to seed my favorite blogs, if i was given the possibility to do so: in this sense, a web browser based on IPNS would be rad: too bad the only one i know of is bundled with JS (instead of operating a paradigm shift) and produced by an adware company. > How will SPAs fare when the backend server is down in 30 years? How much value will be lost? You don't even need to wait 30 years for SPAs to be broken. By the next API update they may stop working, and subtle changes in browser sandboxing could kill them just as quick.
  - iggldiggl 5y ago
    > For future-proofing, and DDOS/censorship mitigation, content-addressed storage (DAT/IPFS/Torrent) makes sense. Well great, now you can't even change the content one tiny bit (not even definitively benign changes like fixing a typo or a bug in your CSS or whatever) without invalidating all links pointing to it. Okay, so as long as anybody still has that version cached and is seeding it at least the link still works (though over time it's not excluded that that number might drop to zero and the link still break after all), though now of course everybody who comes in gets the old version and might not even new that some update exists. While I acknowledge that the silent updates possible with HTTP for an URL's contents can be a curse as much as they are a blessing, I'm not sure if "absolutely no updates ever" are the right answer, either.
bencollier49 5y ago
Even more frustrating than this are the sites which automatically append the current year to their article titles. "Best CMS frameworks (2022)", for example, and yet the content is out of date.
- danparsonson 5y ago
  A particularly egregious example of that are the product review sites - "Best wireless headphones (2022)" and most of the products listed are no longer available.
  - bencollier49 5y ago
    It drives me batty. Another instance of solving the problem by adding "Reddit" to the end of the search string. Of course this means Reddit will shortly be swamped with AI spam bots driving crap to the top of forums. Presumably that's a current issue.
    - DimmieMan 5y ago
      It's not swarmed with bots yet, but I've found reddit to be less reliable in the last year with quite a few suspicious comments popping up for various products. Reddit is still better but I worry in another year that will no longer be the case.
  - speby 5y ago
    I find a lot of those 'review sites' are really just lightweight b.s. marketing sites that are really designed to generate product referral fees by providing a convenient link to Amazon or wherever else rather than truly a real attempt at providing good review.
ajuc 5y ago
I often use before:YYYY-MM-DD and after:YYYY-MM-DD keywords in google search, and some websites mess with that data so that their content looks like it was created today when it obviously wasn't.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
krapp 5y ago
> Google will return irrelevant results from today rather than relevant results from 10 years ago. I can't imagine many subjects for which decades-old results would be more relevant than current ones. Also, Google gives you the option to search by date or date range, so if you just wanted 10 year old results, you could just do that. It even adds the date to the results.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  > I can't imagine many subjects for which decades-old results would be more relevant than current ones. When I’m searching, I want the original article, not one of the 20 blogspam copies that were republished over the years, SEO’ed and loaded up with ads. I wish search engines could come up with a way to more reliably return only the OG article and filter out the copies.
  - krapp 5y ago
    In my experience, Google does link to the original more often than not, probably by following backlinks.
- yakubin 5y ago
  > I can't imagine many subjects for which decades-old results would be more relevant than current ones. - recipes (doesn't matter whether it's from today or from 30 years ago, what matters is the quality of the recipe) - art and art theory - poetry - chess - films Searching by date or date range doesn't work, when you don't know when a relevant article was written. What's needed is not an option to select older articles, but an option to stop prioritizing new ones.
tiborsaas 5y ago
Google has some neat tools, click the "tools" menu and select any time, you can enter a range there: https://imgur.com/a/XQSMT9n https://imgur.com/a/XQSMT9n Not that I ever needed to use it, but it's there. Google does know an indirect date of the page even if it's not written explicitly. The first crawling date should be saved and if no better indicator exists I'd assume they are using that timestamp.
- BlueTemplar 5y ago
  I'm surprised that you never used it ? This is pretty much the only reason why I still sometimes used Google - because Duck Duck Go only added this feature recently.
  - tiborsaas 5y ago
    I'm in the minority of the HN crowd who has very little issues with Google search quality. (although I do see some spam in my native language) My account is getting adolescent old, so it might have learned a thing or two about me how to serve me best.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      Count your blessings. My account is around 15 years old and has gotten worse with time.
    - BlueTemplar 5y ago
      But this isn't about search quality - it's about finding some web page (otherwise obscured by similar keyword webpages) that you know that could only have been created at a specific time.
- account42 5y ago
  Like anything, the date that google consideres something to be published at can be, and is gamed.
- randac 5y ago
zxcvbn4038 5y ago
A lot of sites recycle old content and/or remove the dates so you can’t easily tell how frequently the sites update. Very frustrating when your researching technical issues and you keep encountering outdated materials. Not to mention historic content that disappears behind paywalls.
phkahler 5y ago
I've noticed that most science and math publications - including the paywalled stuff - omits the date. It can be very frustrating finding such information and not knowing its vintage. It IS relevant.
habibur 5y ago
TikTok made this more popular. Every other social media had a date of the post or the video. TikTok had none. Still doesn't. That kept videos fresh over time.
gitfan86 5y ago
Yes, I discovered this back when reddit was just a few years old. Before then I was able to search google for a specific reddit thread and find it. Now there is no chance. I've been screen shit and downloading things that I like for years now.
m-i-l 5y ago
Anecdote: On of the best friends of my oldest daughter moved to a new rented flat recently. When I saw the address for a playdate, I recognised it and said to my daughter "I think you went to a birthday party at this address when you were 3-5 years old when another of your friends must have lived here". To corroborate this, I looked up the calendar on my phone, where I'm pretty organised about putting dates and locations of events. However, at that point I discovered that Google Calendar only keeps 2 years of history! So modern technology is literally erasing our pasts. Not just calendar entries, but messaging systems (people used to keep handwritten letters for decades), and possibly even photos (if we're not careful about preserving them). Edit: See my clarification of the 2 years in comment https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30084620 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=30084620 below. I still think the point remains - we do not own or value our digital data in the same way as physical objects, and there is a much heightened risk of that data disappearing as a result, either by the owners of the platforms the data is stored on archiving the data or by us not valuing it enough to preserve exports and backups through long periods of time.
- seanieb 5y ago
  I just checked, this isn't true. I've Google Calendar entries from over 10 years ago. Where did you get the idea that they delete anything older than 2 years?
  - swah 5y ago
    - DocTomoe 5y ago
      Many offline calendar apps do prune old calendar items after a certain amount of time ... and sync that pruning back to GCal.
      - m-i-l 5y ago
        I've only got 1 year of calendar entries on the official Google Calendar app on an up-to-date Android 12 phone. A quick search suggests the mobile app only stores 1 year but allows searching of 2 years[0], but the desktop/browser one longer, so that must have been where I got the 2 years from. Unfortunately I'm out on my mobile now so won't be able to confirm desktop/browser until later. [0] https://support.google.com/calendar/thread/818677/how-far-back-does-google-store-my-calendar?hl=en&msgid=820393 https://support.google.com/calendar/thread/818677/how-far-ba...
sebastianconcpt 5y ago
I've noticed that too. For some explicit or implicit reason, designers are making UI's without the date. Of course this makes anyone unable to orient itself in the time context. Wonder if they are mindlessly influenced by the transient nature of social media design. Things being "conversation" oriented can gain from peers interaction but for highly technical content, an informal UX will prevent high engineering from _flowing_ (emerging smoothly) or at least less difficult than needed.
rsecora 5y ago
The now has been always preponderous over the past. There are different ways to look at the issue. * general assumption: the future is synonim of progress, so now is more relevant. * general assumption: we know the past, so focus on the unknown aka the now * fact: maintain the memories needs energy, and energy is a scarce resource. So societies forget its past to focus in the current issues to preserve themselves. BTW, Same vibes looking to twitter timelines
Barrin92 5y ago
I feel about the same and recently had to think about Warren Ellis's Transmetropolitan comic series which very much takes place in a future where history and precise dates as well as geographies seem to have been abolished or simply are irrelevant. It's not only the case with literal dates but also with style. It's getting harder to tell precisely how old 'relatively new' stuff is. 'Retro'-design seems to have kind of disappeared. There's now such a flood of information that there's no real well-ordered periods any more. Even the way platforms now present information, not chronologically in an absolute sense but ordered according to personal preference kind of breaks time by design.
zelphirkalt 5y ago
> I feel like I'm encountering more and more sites and articles where I can't seem to find the date. A friend also recommended me to not write a date in the past, but I did not see the reason really. And to simply not write it, because others don't is not a reason enough for me. To me adding the date to any content is a kind of honesty and if not that, then at least useful information, that can be easily added. > Google will return irrelevant results from today rather than relevant results from 10 years ago. This might be on Google, not the Internet in general. However, I also miss some things, that I did not store in earlier times and that are now nowhere to be found. > I feel it's getting worse, is it just me? I think it is not only you. I think it is a result of how the Internet has (d)evolved into more and more walled gardens. More and more short time engagement is optimized for, rather than long term quality websites and information. Many good content sources have long shut down. I blame society for its overall mediocrity and lust for the social media quick fix, without realizing, what is destroyed by that. There are too many people online, who don't have a clue about how the Internet works, heck, how even a single website works. They make such a big part of online communities, that it becomes more profitable to cater to them, than the people, who actually know how stuff works. And why not? It is easier for them to do so, plus they make more money from the crowd. The majority does not care about sitting in walled gardens. They do not care about being able to host services yourself. They do not care about services being served by big corp and not being decentralized and extensible. They do mostly not care about their choices being taken away, which they never knew they had in the first place. There are countries, where the "Internet" is served by Facebook. They did not get to know the Internet by writing their own HTML by hand and putting that online. Most of them will never want to learn about the web's basics anyway. Today you are a "creator", when you produce content that goes through the filters of massive platforms, which are owned by FAANG and others. This is how we end up with a situation, that is less and less what people in the know would like. This is how the many ruin it for the few.
- alpaca128 5y ago
  > I also miss some things, that I did not store in earlier times and that are now nowhere to be found Same. So much content disappears over time and even if it still exists it can be difficult to find again without knowing the exact search terms used. Or search engines just don't list it in a visible spot because 200 links to Pinterest and other networks are ranked higher. I now have a habit of downloading or at least screenshotting anything I find interesting. Which of course leads to the problem of organizing & finding the data locally.
7373737373 5y ago
I hate that not all scientific papers include a date by default
gbrindisi 5y ago
Can it be a side effect of SEO? IIRC Google et al. have recency bias to determine page ranks
QuantumYeti 5y ago
> I feel like I'm encountering more and more sites and articles where I can't seem to find the date. I think this is referred to as "Evergreen Content", and is encouraged by marketing/SEO companies.
agumonkey 5y ago
It's been the case for quite a while. I often find myself peaking at html source or even HTTP requests to try to retrieve dates. It's super strange.
nomilk 5y ago
I take a lot of notes. The links I place in them often 404 just a few years later. I'm grateful for wayback machine. But it doesn't capture everything. Sometimes I'm just left with a link. And some links don't reveal any information about the source (e.g. a youtube link gives no info about what a removed video was). I've started adding a little more plain text to my notes to help protect against this (e.g. source: "3m20s into Bob's Rails tutorial on Webpacker") just in case it disappears I'll have something to latch on to.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  I pay for pinboard.in for this reason.
  - nomilk 5y ago
    Hadn't come across this before. At first glance, I thought the quotes were satirical, but no, they're very real: > "You don't really know that the cool project you signed up for is in a skyscraper in Silicon Valley, or like me: one dude in his underpants somewhere who has five windows open to terminal servers" - Economist Magazine [1] [1] https://www.economist.com/babbage/2011/04/04/stick-a-pin-in-it https://www.economist.com/babbage/2011/04/04/stick-a-pin-in-...
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      It is developed and run(?) by our own dear idlewords.
toolcombinator 5y ago
Nah, I see it too. YouTube is especially bad.
piyushpr134 5y ago
Google has become shitty. They "return irrelevant results from today rather than relevant results from 10 years ago" is mfing disease. I have completely moved away from it to ddg and bing. Much better results
madanswer 5y ago
[flagged]
faoileag 5y ago
Three things might come into play here: 1. AFAIK Google ranks pages (amongst other metrics) by how "fresh" they are. A date given on a web page might count as a measure of "freshness" so it would be good SEO practice to eliminate the date. 2. Google can measure how good its search results are by simply tracking the click-through. So, assuming search term "t" can lead to older results (technology ten years ago) or newer results (technology now), Google can refine results for the term by looking at the click-through rates. And if most of your fellow searchers look for newer tech, you looking for the older stuff might be marginalized. 3. With tracking being as sophisticated as it is, you might simply be in the wrong "cohort". If that's the case, you might try to alter what google knows about you by looking until you find the results relevant to you and then clicking on them. Even if that means going to page 10 of the results.
hwers 5y ago
It's to a huge degree google giving crap results and not many actual pages disappearing. The other day I searched for "f.position.vsub is not a function"[1] and after the first 3 results it starts giving just completely irrelevant results like 'the definition of function according to mathematics' (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Function_(mathematics) ). Just wild garbage stuff. [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=f.position.vsub+is+not+a+function https://www.google.com/search?q=f.position.vsub+is+not+a+fun...
tannhaeuser 5y ago
Well, the past disappearing has been a staple in mainstream literature for some time now (eg. The Second Sleep by Robert Harris), and not just in SciFi (eg. A Fire Upon the Deep by Vernor Vinge, which I came around to reading over Xmas, where it's implicitly assumed civilizations can fall back into a second or third medieval age). So it's not just you; it's Google and the incentives they've created on the web since about 2010 or so.
therufa 5y ago
> Google will return irrelevant results from today rather than relevant results from 10 years ago. It's the main reason behind why instead of bookmarking stuff, I instead archive stuff. Search engines aren't as convenient as they used to be, especially for non-trending topics. At least that's my experience.
marmarama 5y ago
Google's search quality has taken a serious nosedive in the last couple of years - the last 6 months in particular. I think they implemented some new form of search term widening which is far too strong, so the results you want are often buried among pages and pages of results for the general category of things that you searched for rather than close matches for your keywords. Combined with the recency bias that other people have talked about and you end up with a lot less useful search for precise searching. This coincides with a large increase in the number of surveys that my partner has been getting through the Google Rewards program that ask whether or not a recently used search term gave relevant results. Obviously that's just anecdotal, but it does feel like there are substantial changes in the algorithm, and not necessarily for the better.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  Has been going on for a decade in my region but it seems recently other people on HN has been hit too. With that said, welcome to the club. I feel sorry for you all who have to go through this now; I've had a decade to adapt.
  - visiblink 5y ago
    I've been seeing this too. So after reading your comment and the one above, I did a search to see what operators are still supported by Google and stumbled across this page: https://ahrefs.com/blog/google-advanced-search-operators/ https://ahrefs.com/blog/google-advanced-search-operators/ It's nice to see that AND and OR still work, but from a few tests, it seems that most of us should be prefacing our searches with "allintext:" (without the quotation marks). It works well to dramatically improve the results of my searches. I think I'll write myself a google search page that automatically prepends it to my searches.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      Wow! I have been a really advanced Google user and somehow I have missed that particular one! Edit: 1. Reading through it I am fairly certain some of these has been defect too. define: in particular is one that I used to use, but that I was sure was broken. Today it worked again though. 2. At least double quotes still doesn't work (or maybe they include text from links pointing to site or something) 3. How did you find this? I've been looking for something like this recently :-)
mejutoco 5y ago
I noticed a bias for recency that a lot of people share, or take for granted (sometimes myself). I was surprised to see that this idea, that history is better and better with time, goes back to Aristotle. https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/progress/ https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/progress/
wodenokoto 5y ago
It’s getting really bad. Having a date, or at least an accurate date on an article is a liability towards google traffic. Even old articles about things that happened a long time will be “updated” every 6 month in order to have a relevant date on them.
- dusted 5y ago
  yes, and that's absolutely insane from a search perspective.. Google used to be an effective tool for searching for content online, but it's turning into a personal assistant type of tool where the interface is search queries. But it's a retarded assistant that has no idea (and seems to be unable to get one) about what you're doing. I'd much rather have a very good and "dumb" search tool, one where I can make complicated queries to filter out what I want, than one that is "smart" 60% of the time, and entirely useless if the first 2 results it guessed were not right.
Atlas667 5y ago
The internet is probably the biggest set of tools right now for preserving the past and keeping it at arms reach. You're referring to googles search practices, which is a for profit industry centered around marketing, people need to see those ads. And they can make sure of that. The discrepancy is of the interests of a company vs the interests of the majority.
fer 5y ago
I've certainly noticed Google ignoring results more than 3-4 years old when something barely related, but more recent, matches. I call it "recency trap". Because of that I've found myself more and more systematically setting the date range of the desired results (which isn't 100% of the time useful as many sites reply with misleading metadata). To point a recent example (and given the current events) a number of Russian officials blamed the sinking of the Kursk on NATO (either on purpose or by accident), and I recall such statements from back then, but via Google it's been almost impossible to find a primary source. Most results were from the 2021 statements insisting on that from a retired admiral that was involved back then, but from 2000/2001 the relevant content was certainly tough to find. Part of it is because this is 2000/2001 and many links rotted away, another part because the existing links usually don't respect basic SEO, and finally because Google, in my experience, very strongly prioritizes now/recent content.
- dublinben 5y ago
  At least Google still allows you to set a specific time window for your search results. Given their strong recency bias, this is often the only way to find older resources.
  - aimor 5y ago
    I'm glad the date range tool still exists, I use it now and then and it's generally good. What's bad is that it's not available on the mobile site. But what's ugly is how unreliable and cluttered the results are. For example: "Dec 21, 2001 — House Democrats plan to vote Wednesday to impeach President Trump for his role in inciting the deadly Capitol attack as President-elect Joe Biden prepares ..." https://www.google.com/search?q=president+Trump&biw=980&bih=1612&source=lnt&tbs=cdr%3A1%2Ccd_min%3A1%2F1%2F1999%2Ccd_max%3A1%2F1%2F2002&tbm= https://www.google.com/search?q=president+Trump&biw=980&bih=... (be sure to switch to desktop mode if on mobile)
JKCalhoun 5y ago
> Google will return irrelevant results from today My annoyance when searching for "Alice in Wonderland" and getting Disney, not Carroll.
jonahbenton 5y ago
The TikTok effect.
jlengrand 5y ago
There is worse than content without a date. There is content with a fake date, changed to appear like it's relevant while it isn't. There is nothing more frustrating that typing "XXXX 2022" click a link and see "XXXX-2020" in the URL. People legit not changing their article but updating the title to stay on top of the SEO game. Usually found on generic searches that drive big traffic. I freaking hate that so much.
- BeFlatXIII 5y ago
  That’s especially common in blogspam where they programmatically update the year to the current year when compiling a stolen best-of list.
chrsw 5y ago
I also had the same observation. It's pretty annoying and an example of how the web in some cases is become less useful. For Google in particular, more often I myself skipping the first wave of results because they aren't very helpful, they're just crafted to show up in search results. I guess now that so many of us are already in the Google ecosystem, there's less incentive to cater to users.
dorfsmay 5y ago
Yes, very annoying! I once wrote a script to estimate the publication date based on archive.org first appearance, for an entire site for a blogger who had nit put a date on any page. Might be worth turning it into a per page browser extension...
mountainb 5y ago
The truth is that most web content is irrelevant garbage. Do you care that an ad doesn't have a 'published on' date? Do you care that the brochures you get in the mail that you instantly throw out do not have a publish date? Most web content falls under this category: ephemeral junk. It's irresponsible to use the web for meaningful research purposes. For most technical questions, go to manuals, and for most humanistic questions, hit the books. The web can be a means to inform research, but the majority of material is basically "39 weird teeth whitening tricks the dentists don't want you to know."
illwrks 5y ago
As mentioned by other I think search is becoming more muddy and that is part of the issue. The thought I have in the back of my head is that for thousands of years lots of information was written down, but not any more. What happens if digital storage is affected/destroyed for what ever reason... Back to the stone age?
slightwinder 5y ago
The past is always moving and disappearing. Old servers die, content is moved to new structures and lost along the line. That's why the wayback machine exists. Also, google is just a window, it's not the whole world. And for some years now they limit their crawling to the last years of content AFAIK, for multiple reasons. Over all, I think this is good, because it's more likely that old content is outdated and wrong. But of course old content can also be valuable. So for this stuff it might be better to use other ways than google to find them. Like searching directly on the websites or in specialized archives-search engines.
Terry_Roll 5y ago
Its not you, the search engines have become weaponised. The most recent example, Sue Gray, a top British civil servant until a few months ago would have her career controversies visible in search results when searching for her. Since it was announced she would carry out an investigation into party's at 10 Downing Streets, its become impossible to see her career controversies in search results now. Eli Pariser also hilighted changes going on with Google back in 2011 as you can see from this talk, but I think was just the start. https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_bubbles https://www.ted.com/talks/eli_pariser_beware_online_filter_b... IMO, the search engines have now got a lot worse with what they show in search results like the Sue Grey example above. Society is becoming like Fahrenheit 451 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fahrenheit_451
- mbg721 5y ago
  Is the instance of Sue Gray related at all to the strength of English libel law? When UK controversies get buried, that often seems to be the reason.
  - Terry_Roll 5y ago
    Sue Gray has done other reports, when I think of her I think of 50 shades of grey.
- kevinmchugh 5y ago
  I think there's a recency bias for Google search results, that cuts both ways. I searched "Eric Clapton" and "Neil Young" and both pages have a mix of expected results (Wikipedia, social media, official website, Spotify) and news/tabloid/opinion pieces about their recent covid takes. I've certainly had searches in the past where I couldn't find the Wikipedia link because there was too much noise about a recent controversy.
- wholinator2 5y ago
  I would like to highlight that there are currently other search engine options. We can chose to use duck duck go or even bing. Both of which I have never blatantly experienced things being hidden.
indymike 5y ago
Here's the advice my company's SEO consultant gave us: "If you date your content, it will drop in the search results." This advice, if true is bad for human knowledge.
- gjvnq 5y ago
  Shitty compromise: show the date only for people browsing through elinks :)
analyte123 5y ago
It's not just you - it's always Year Zero [1] on Google SRPs now. When you're looking for information on a topic or historical event, you're not going to easily find classical sources, contemporary primary sources, bloggers - it's always content from the last two years from what Google considers authoritative / trusted sources. Searching has become a skill again; you have to use your existing knowledge to drill down to associated terms and also search books, archives, social media, and so on, up to asking literal people. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(political_notion) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_Zero_(political_notion)
robbomacrae 5y ago
The past is always disappearing. I know of no data recording device that we could use to store anything for more than a million years except DNA (for fun check out the Arch Mission Foundation that attempts to use DNA for backups of human knowledge) [0] or 5D nanostructured glass [1]. This post reminded me of a great Kurzgesagt video [2] that went briefly into how much of the past life on earth we have no information on and will never be able to know. Incidentally it took me a few seconds to find that video. Before the internet if I was trying to lookup a clip I had seen a month ago on TV I don't know even where I would have begun searching... However I think we are getting increasingly better at preserving information and making it easy to access with tools like the internet archive, and cloud backups for your photos. This is despite the sheer quantity of data (such as the number of photos you take) growing at an exponential rate. Would you have been able to easily find instructions for a machine that was decades old before the internet? So the past is disappearing but possibly at a decreasing rate. 0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Mission_Foundation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arch_Mission_Foundation 1: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5D_optical_data_storage 2: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaQJbozY_Is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaQJbozY_Is
wholinator2 5y ago
As an aside, when I saw on the news that Iran had created a propaganda video appearing to show them air striking Donald Trump at a golf course, every new media that told me about the video, also refused to show it. I went to Google and not a single link returned contained the actual video, I was getting pretty mad. I try the exact same words in bing and every link returned has the video. I had never actually experience so blatantly Google hiding information from me, my search terms were very clear, evidenced by bing's results. But honestly just that one experience is enough for me to never trust Google again.
irthomasthomas 5y ago
And chrome based browsers delete history after 3 months. Yes, the past is most definitely disappearing. But don't worry, some faang thought-leaders will be along soon to tell us how we're mistaken, it is only being deemphasised, I am sure.
city41 5y ago
On a similar note, I've noticed Google search results are almost always very "recent". For example I just searched for "linux find command" and the top result has a date of Nov 21, 2021. I could be wrong, but I don't think `find` has had any changes to necessitate such a recent article on it? It seems like Google gives preference to recent stuff so sites make what would otherwise be stable content, "recent".
mrfusion 5y ago
If there are multiple past states that can lead to the present state then is the past any more fixed than the future?
princevegeta89 5y ago
Old links are definitely disappearing from search engines. I used to keep a track of results over a period of 5 years and I could only see that newer results are showing up while the ones from the past slowly fade away.
motohagiography 5y ago
Search results seem only to preserve the most controversial stuff, because that's what people look for, which is just the way the internet and news works. The idea that search engines aren't honest brokers or trustworthy sources is probably an indirectly positive development, as they shouldn't be a social credit record or an immutable journal, and people should not feel they are subject to them, or expect that the results are a true or accurate reflection of a persons life or work. Search was originally great for searching technical material about things, but they're profoundly awful for telling you anything accurate about people, and I'd suggest that may be a positive view. I did some professional writing for newspapers and magazines in the 00's, and it's all no longer online, which was a bit of a surprise to discover, as the articles in those publications were part of what I saw as significant personal accomplishments. Even the photos from the security cons have been largely scrubbed. There's some mercy in things falling off your social credit record with time, but for me that has been double edged. The good stuff is gone, and the lame stuff persists, but to me it's a small price for the freedom that the relative privacy provides. Some sites I understand what happened as some of it was personal, and other sites I checked to see how far back their online content went, and my pieces were just from before their current historical cutoff. Of course as a natural conspiracy practitioner, I think there is an ideological effect of progressing search results to emphasize the present and downplay the good and value in the past as a matter of permanent revolution, but even I would be suprised if that was ever explicitly articulated anywhere, and the bitrot of internet history can be explained by other more concrete and plausible incentives.
nmstoker 5y ago
I agree it's getting worse, but this is not a new phenomenon. I don't have evidence to hand but this is something I've noticed for at least ten years. It usually undermines content trust and value, especially on more professional sites (you can expect it on news clickbait sites but national/international news sites and other generally reputable sites do it too)
oxff 5y ago
Only the hash horizon made of proof of work will protect you.
rc_mob 5y ago
Yes I hate this trend, and google doesn't seem to care
oversocialized 5y ago
Yes the old, decentralized web is disappearing and being replaced by centralized big tech. I remember when google search came out and it was amazing. Now it restricts anything "not approved". personal websites, geocities, angelfire, myspace. then blogs and facebook appeared for people to put their content there. Then reddit came and ate the forums. reddit never used to show up in search results but many helpful forums would. Now it is the opposite. Then google ate up the bloggers. The entire point is to direct content to these big tech approved sites. Try wiby.me to find some of the old sites. There is also a movement to decentralize. Take your stuff off github, off reddit, off facebook, and onto your own site. Form webrings like the good old days.
buttholesurfer 5y ago
ecf 5y ago
I’ve started noticing this when using Google to search for Reddit threads. Threads posted years ago now appear to have been posted in the last few days due to Reddit hacking Google relevancy metrics. Probably Reddit’s doing, but it’s made finding older topics impossible and I partially blame Google for letting companies abuse their service in this way.
pessimizer 5y ago
It's because search engines are extremely stupid and a plurality of people are looking for information from today, so they've been strongly biased to get that win on 20% of searches.
Jimmc414 5y ago
I think it is Google. I recently noticed how different my returned search results were if I'm logged in vs logged out of Google.
jonathankoren 5y ago
Google is over emphasizing most recent results. Just last night, I was looking up something about a medical treatment, and all the results were covid + treatment, none of which was what I wanted. I’m glad I remembered the -keyword trick to exclude the term.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
gauchojs 5y ago
Most likely, see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2602187 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=2602187
imtemplain 5y ago
nicbou 5y ago
Google explicitly values recent results, and it's related to their campaign against incorrect information. In many contexts, this makes sense. Things change, and old content describes the old reality. I think it's generally good, because it encourages content creators to maintain their content, instead of publishing it then forgetting about it.
topspin 5y ago
> is it just me? No. I too have observed this. It's another dark pattern driven by SEO. In the internal page ranking algorithm I apply to web content lack of dates is an important factor.
geodel 5y ago
It also reminds me what Thomas Piketty said prices of things used to be mentioned prominently in novels and all in past. Nowadays it does not happen unless pricing itself is salient part of plot. The reason was being inflation. Once inflation took over, there was no accuracy or authenticity about prices of objects and slowly disappeared from novels/movies etc. The same thing I can see with dates, with billions of events generated and captured every second , the actual date/time of event can be demoted to level of thousands other attributes captured. So it will be mentioned when date itself is point of article etc.
btrettel 5y ago
A warning for those who remove dates from their content and care about invalidating bad patents and rejecting bad patent applications: If there's no date, likely a patent examiner can't use it as prior art. I used to work as a patent examiner and I was disappointed when I found web content describing an element of a patent application I was working on, but there was no date that could be used to be certain the document was available before the priority date of the application. You can use the Wayback Machine and similar archivers to get a date, but frequently the archivers didn't capture the page or didn't capture it in time in my experience (even if it likely was published in time, I can't establish that legally). Before I quit, I spent some time saving a ton of webpages in one of the areas I was working on (water heaters) just because I wasn't sure how long I'd be at the USPTO and I could be certain of the date given that I myself archived the documents. It was a long-term investment, but could have been quite useful if (for example) a company tries to patent something they previously sold a long time ago and forgot about. The Wayback Machine often had spotty coverage of corporate webpages so I couldn't see all their products at a particular time.
- hackerfromthefu 5y ago
  Check the source html, sometimes cmses put dates there
hbarka 5y ago
Probably an opportunity for a browser extension where a mouseover to the title will query archive.org and return metadata of original create date and latest modified.
cpcat 5y ago
All i can say is i get really frustrated when i dont see a date on an article which to me means i cannot rely on any info in there. Im always looking for the latest and with no date i cant tell
gwern 5y ago
That past does seem to disappear in Google: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23977375 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19604135 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19604135 Maybe people are evolving to erase dates as a countermeasure? I sometimes wonder how much of this is just a ratchet of things like banning spam: on a long enough time horizon, the survival rate of everything goes to zero?
ChuckMcM 5y ago
Traditionally 'date' has been a negative SEO thing in that Google prefers to surface "new" things rather than "older" things. As a result, web sites will pick one of three strategies; Remove all date indicators from the content, Put the date on when "new" but remove the date after the content has been up for more than a set period of time, or use a js function to always render a date from yesterday as the date of the material. Google isn't about "reference" data (who clicks on ads when they are looking for a history of stories about topic X?) so the archival and reference function falls to meta services like Wikipedia where a human curates the history and provides links back to the that history. Of course such links get very few visitors and often the place hosting the content will simply retire it rather than spend a couple of nanocents on leaving it up, and the result is link rot. Yes, I am cynical about how Google is now an agent for "destroying the world's information" when at one point they were simply trying to organize it.
throwaway_Aef8 5y ago
Heequaet4geongeel1bag0xie9inaB4u
twinge 5y ago
Related anecdote: the 2008 flash crash of United Airlines stock [0]. A six-year-old article about United Airlines' 2002 bankruptcy was republished from the Chicago Tribune in The South Florida Sun-Sentinel (apparently without the date), then got picked up Google News, then by an investment firm, then ultimately by Bloomberg, leading to a flash crash from $12 to $3. 0: https://www.wired.com/2008/09/six-year-old-st/ https://www.wired.com/2008/09/six-year-old-st/
ralusek 5y ago
It's honestly been hard to find news sources from the beginning of the pandemic...
dennis_jeeves 5y ago
crucialfelix 5y ago
The world would be very different if we had 10000 years of detailed correspondence, news, diaries and paintings from a majority of the population. What a treasure and a curse it would be. We would drown in our past. Though I think with AI it would be a blessing. So much to learn from.
grappler 5y ago
I share an interest in this topic, and have come up with a partial set of coping strategies. - I open the popup for the 'SEOInfo' firefox plugin which displays metadata from the page (JSON-LD, microdata, and a catch-all "other meta" field often show created/modified timestamps for the current page) - A page may give a date but if the page has a whiff of marketing vibe about it and that date is very recent and not in the url I am immediately suspicious of the date it gives. - I click over to archive sites (Internet Archive/wayback machine, archive.today). I'll often bookmark a good early capture from one of these next to the actual page for the sole reason that the capture has some semblance of a date, even if it's not close to the actual published date. I want that simply because I like to order links by date and so I need some date to use for that. - Academic papers are especially frustrating here. Some have a date prominently in the pdf but most don't. This is apparently an artifact of a process whereby papers often simply don't have a definitive date. The authors worked on it over the course of a year or more, so many differing versions are floating around. For these I google the title and can often get an arxiv preprint page with a submission date, or journal publications with a submission date (though these often only give a month or a year). - There is a lot of good stuff on a stackoverflow page but what's the "date" of that page? A question could have been asked a decade ago and have answers running from that day to today. I really like the wayback machine for these. I can start with an early version of the page and click forward through time, bookmarking when I stop. Then if I pick it up again later, I can resume from the bookmark and continue forward through time from there. - Quora pages are especially frustrating because they won't give the date the question was asked; just the answers. And you can't do the wayback machine thing I described above for stackoverflow because Quora has blocked internet archive. For these reasons I dread trying to do anything with quora pages. What I'd really wish for is some way browsers can get create/modify dates for any page, so the user doesn't need to hunt for it and plugins can do stuff with it. For example I'd love a plugin that could order the tabs in a window by, say, modification date. The workflow I have in mind is: open search results into tabs. Make the browser order the tabs by date for you without manual labor. Then you can read through your search results in chronological order. Save the set. Restore it a week or a year later. Click "reorder" again to account for pages that have received updates. Now your tabs are in chronological order again. I would gladly pay for this capability!
antifa 5y ago
This is a huge pet peeve of mine. Articles are increasingly hiding their publish date. Webauthors are arrogantly claiming their blog is "timeless". It turns out that whether the information im looking at is 1 year old, 4 years old, or 10 years old is actually very important in guiding how it needs to be interpreted. If you're lucky, there will be a publish date in "view source". This applies to programming and current events.
shime 5y ago
I think this is the effect of various companies trying to capture as much of our attention as possible because it makes sense for their bottom line. We are all victims of recency bias, so it makes sense for companies to prioritize more recent content. If it wasn't the case, the various social media apps wouldn't be as addictive as they are. I am not aware of a social media app feed that puts quality above recency (not counting the plugins that enable that, like Twemex [1]). Instead they keep us in what David Perell calls "Never-Ending Now" [2]. We endlessly consume temporary, short-lived content and we are mostly blind to the past. Google search is not social media, but I wouldn't be surprised if Google ranked more recent content higher, given how they have changed the Youtube algorithm. 1: https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/twemex-sidebar-for-twitte/amoldiondpmjdnllknhklocndiibkcoe?hl=en https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/twemex-sidebar-for... 2: https://perell.com/essay/never-ending-now/ https://perell.com/essay/never-ending-now/

saurik 5y ago

FWIW, I started hating putting dates on most of my stuff because I simply got sick of people incessantly asking "is this still up to date?" because the date happened to be from even just a few months ago much less a year ago.

helsinkiandrew 5y ago
> I simply got sick of people incessantly asking "is this still up to date?" I don't know what or where 'your stuff' is - but isn't that a fair question for a lot of topics? Writing about data structures or political protests might be valid for decades but a lot of technical writing about languages, platforms, even products and companies can age very quickly and unlike news or culture might be of less interest to people in the future. Many people find technical writings whilst searching google for a solution to a problem. I love the articles that have a date and version of whatever platform something is relevant for (even better when someone adds a "this was written for version X.Y things have changed in version X.Z see the doc at..." etc)
- randcraw 5y ago
  And if you remove the date, people will still ask the same question. Inevitably.
worble 5y ago
It's a valid question, you don't have to respond to them but at least if the date is there the user themselves can have a fighting chance at looking up what's changed since then. It's entirely possible a tutorial made for software 3 months ago or something might have outdated information if there was a new, backwards incompatible release, or that a news article might be missing information that was revealed only a few days ago, etc.
nosianu 5y ago
Why not add something together with the date telling people for how long this information will be valid? Does not have to be a date, can be "indefinitely" or, in the case of software "until new major version update". Works best when you also revisit old content occasionally and update that information. I think you drew the wrong conclusions from those inquiries.
dusted 5y ago
Yeah, that can be a problem, I used to put a Created and an Updated date, but now I just have a Last updated date.

taubek 5y ago

I must say that I put more trust in blog posts that put the notice "Updated: 10/2021") at top of their posts. This communicates to me that this topic was important at some time in the past and that someone is still taking car of the content and is updating from time to time. Stability and old content can be good. Not everything is being updated and not everything needs to be updated. I'm all for putting dates on pages and blog posts :)

narag 5y ago
When they are just dishonest, saying that it's updated today or recently using a script is just as easy. They just lie. I was trying to find out why VLC stopped working for me a few months ago [0] and landed in a terrible site where they suggested to do a lot of cargo cult driver updating and whatnot. A few "comments" thanked the author for the comprehensive (and totally fake) information. This kind of crap seems to be winning. My other recent quest, finding a uni site about consciusness, psychedelia, emerson and 60s music, that I used to visit 20 years ago, was also unsuccessful. [0] https://code.videolan.org/videolan/vlc/-/issues/25976 https://code.videolan.org/videolan/vlc/-/issues/25976 (nobody assigned)
- NavinF 5y ago
  On that note, Reddit seems to be faking their last modified date metadata for SEO purposes. I’ve seen many old threads (where all the comments are 5 years old with no edits) show up in my Google search results with today’s date below the link. This coincided with and is likely related to the removal of automatic thread archiving 4 months ago.
  - b112 5y ago
    This also signals an end game, where the last vestiges of true improved, customer facing improvements are over. With nothing left, one delves into short term growth numbers. Because of this, some indexes may de-stress reddit by date search, and, by freshness. And some end users will click, become annoyed more often, and stop clicking on reddit links. They clearly have nothing left, and no other idea how to improve reddit. They have signaled they are well past peak growth.
- taubek 5y ago
  I understand you. I've noticed this kind of behavior on some review sites. They put the latest month in the title but who knows when did they actually update it?

pimlottc 5y ago

There’s a popular concept in the content industry of “evergreen content”, meaning posts that are always relevant or useful regardless of when they were originally posted. The idea is that articles will have a longer “shelf life” if they are not tied to a particular date or recent event. Of course, producing true evergreen content takes more effort than just removing the publish date but that’s one easy way to fake it.

bo1024 5y ago
Originally posted: <date> Most recent update: <date> Edit: it’s only a matter of time till an article stops getting updated. Of course I doubt people in the “content industry” (tell me that’s not a real thing) care what happens to anyone else after they stop updating their ‘evergreen’ page.
- jrochkind1 5y ago
  I see that a lot these days with "most recent update" that I'm pretty sure is a lie. Or maybe they changed some tiny thing to make it not a technical lie.
  - b112 5y ago
    Marketing is all about lying. Making up fake reviews, customer testimonials. Exaggerating (which is lying) about the product. Explaining how good it will make you feel, or better yet, showing photos of people very happy, using the products. Acting = lying, photshopped photos = lying, fictitious scenarios of use = lying. Lying is required to write a story (when you read a fiction book, you want the lie about reality, for it is fun to imagine.) This is a lie all parties engage in willingly. But marketing types have a sole purpose. To lie, but make it look like truth. So they don't care one iota about really updating an article or not.
    - nerbert 5y ago
      Movie with CGI such as Star Wars = lying?
      - TuringTest 5y ago
        Fiction is lies only when you want to pass them off as the truth: "That's right -- and when you get to the human world, the Nothing will cling to you. You'll be like a contagious disease that makes humans blind, so they can no longer distinguish between reality and illusion. Do you know what you and your kind are called there?" "No," Atreyu whispered. "Lies!" Gmork barked ― Michael Ende, The Neverending Story
        TuringTest 5y ago
        There's in the same dialog this warning about advertising and politics: “When it comes to controlling human beings there is no better instrument than lies. Because, you see, humans live by beliefs. And beliefs can be manipulated. The power to manipulate beliefs is the only thing that counts ... Who knows what use they’ll make of you? Maybe you’ll help them to persuade people to buy things they don’t need, or hate things they know nothing about, or hold beliefs that make them easy to handle, or doubt the truths that might save them.”
        sabhiram 5y ago
        need a revisit, that seems appropriate and deep
        TuringTest 5y ago
        It is! Ende was raised under the esoteric Anthroposophy philosophy, and I suspect much of his works are dedicated to debunk its nonsensical beliefs. The second half of The Neverending Story is a philosophical treaty on itself (it hurts the book as an action story, but gives you a lot to ponder about). His child books certainly have a deep second reading as adults.
      - b112 5y ago
        All fiction is a lie, by its very definition. After all, it claims the unreal as real. Fiction, lies. The difference with things like fiction in books and movies, for entertainment, is that the listener of the lie, knows it is a lie, and listens for entertainment. It is not a lie, pretending to be true.
        abyrne10 5y ago
        I would argue that a lie involves deliberate deception, not just untruth. Fiction, then, is not a lie, as by definition it is something imagined or invented, and therefore not created to deceive.
        b112 5y ago
        I think deceive was created to explain the difference in intent.
      - nicbou 5y ago
        Yep, the whole thing is made up!
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- b112 5y ago
  people in the “content industry” (tell me that’s not a real thing) I think if there is a thing of any sort, there's an industry for it. And if it sound dumb to an engineer type, it's more likely there's a lot of it.
  - da39a3ee 5y ago
    It’s too general though isn’t it. It would be like the “doing stuff” industry being a thing. There might be people who use the term, but that doesn’t mean the term points to any actual phenomenon in the real world.
    - supernovae 5y ago
      It's a huge industry. There are services to buy writers, buy content, trade content, link content, guest post so on and so forth.
    - bo1024 5y ago
      That was my reaction, it’s scary right. Like need an article on safely installing a light switch? Call the content industry. Managing stored PII and passwords? Content industry. Medical information? Content industry.
- habeebtc 5y ago
  I see some articles which always have a "last updated" of today. You can refresh a day later and watch it change.
- igneo676 5y ago
  A past employer almost went with this approach, but with a technical audience it's hard to cover all the edge cases with RSS. People get cranky when they get pinged when an article updates superficially, but you also want people updated when the article is basically completely rewritten Safer to just publish a new article when there's a sufficient amount of content to update. Link the articles together somehow. Maybe add a disclaimer to older (and not updated) articles that they might no longer be valid Also solves the problem others have mentioned where they don't trust the date on articles. If you have a solid previous article to link to, you're more likely to build trust that the new one really is new
  - kevincox 5y ago
    I don't see how this is a problem with RSS. RSS (and the other feed formats) have a concept of an entry ID. If user's don't want to see updates they only show items with a new entry ID. To get even more nuanced generally a superficial update shouldn't change the "updated" time, this gives another level of control.
- warrenm 5y ago
  and then someone figures out how to put a `<?php echo date('l, F jS, Y'); ?>` into the "Most recent update:" line ... voila! Perennially up-to-date!
openknot 5y ago
I first heard about "evergreen content" from the local news industry. To add examples of what it looks like (to demonstrate the extra effort required as you mentioned), here are a couple recent examples from The Guardian (because there's no paywall): 1. "Top 10 novels inspired by Greek myths" (not tied to a recent event): https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/26/top-10-novels-inspired-by-greek-myths-susan-stokes-chapman-pandora https://www.theguardian.com/books/2022/jan/26/top-10-novels-... 2. "How to make pea and ham soup - recipe": https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/jan/26/how-to-make-pea-and-ham-soup-recipe-felicity-cloake https://www.theguardian.com/food/2022/jan/26/how-to-make-pea... These are unlikely to pull lots of traffic versus a more timely event (e.g. interview with an author for a recent book release for the first section; except maybe the second as it's a regular column). However, the usefulness about evergreen content for a local print publication was to fill content for the print edition when there was a slow news week (not enough timely news to fill the pages).
- jonathankoren 5y ago
  The ultimate piece of evergreen content I’ve heard of is Peter Stark’s “Frozen Alive” for Outside Magazine.[0] It’s a story about what hypothermia does to you, told as a second person narrative. It was first written 25 years ago. It was a hit article in 1997, and since at least 2016, it is one of Outside Magazine’s most read articles every year.[1][2] [0] https://www.outsideonline.com/2152131/freezing-death https://www.outsideonline.com/2152131/freezing-death [1] https://niemanstoryboard.org/stories/peter-stark-and-as-freezing-persons-recollect-the-snow-first-chill-then-stupor-then-the-letting-go/ https://niemanstoryboard.org/stories/peter-stark-and-as-free... [2] https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690468853/why-peter-starks-frozen-alive-story-still-resonates-more-than-20-years-later https://www.npr.org/2019/01/31/690468853/why-peter-starks-fr...

tleb_ 5y ago

https://kagi.com/ https://kagi.com/ https://search.marginalia.nu/ https://search.marginalia.nu/

3pt14159 5y ago
I just tried "python convert datetime to unix timestamp" on marginalia and it came out with nothing. Kagi I signed up for the beta and I'm on a waitlist. Still nothing better that Google for me.
- marginalia_nu 5y ago
  Yeah it's not quite the sort of query it's good at. It's more geared toward discovery than answering questions. You can answer that particular question if you tune the query a bit though. https://search.marginalia.nu/search?query=python+datetime+unix&profile=yolo&js=default https://search.marginalia.nu/search?query=python+datetime+un... Has this as the first result, though: http://www.logophile.org/blog/2010/08/15/python-datetime-conversions http://www.logophile.org/blog/2010/08/15/python-datetime-con...
  - 3pt14159 5y ago
    You're right. It works better when I think "hard keyword search" than what I'm used to with DDG and Google. I tried "python super classmethod" and got here: https://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3135/ https://legacy.python.org/dev/peps/pep-3135/ which perfectly answered my question.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      Isn't it beautiful that something so amazing can run on a standard tower PC in a living room in Sweden? Holding up against a HN hug of death last month, providing an absolutely refreshing search experience!
- shrikant 5y ago
  I got access to the Kagi beta a week or so back, and have been daily-driving it as my default search engine ever since. I've only ever "fallen back" to Google for a small handful of searches since then, and only out of curiosity for what it might look like in comparison to the Kagi results. Although it's only been a small amount of time, I'm sticking with Kagi for now because the search results are at least on par with Google's, and significantly less encumbered by Google's SERP dark patterns.
- TheSecondMouse 5y ago
  I just tried on Kagi, this was the result: https://imgur.com/a/Ds1YTf5 https://imgur.com/a/Ds1YTf5 I've been using Kagi for a little while now, honestly, it's been pretty great.
- skinkestek 5y ago
  Read the how to on marginalia. Edit, it is right beneath the search box and says: [...] A concrete example: How do I cook steak? will probably not be helpful, Steak Recipe will give better results (just Steak is pretty good too). After that try: python datetime timestamp or: python convert time or something similar. Edit: see also marginalias answer next to me. As I wrote earlier: marginalia is most for fun (although lately I have gotten better results for at least one simple technical query.) Edit: if a search engine respects your query you can always broaden your query. If a search engine ignores your query you cannot do anything.
  - ajmurmann 5y ago
    Is my memory filling me or is that much closer to how search used to work in the early 00s? I have vague memories of being flabbergasted by someone even trying something like "how to XYZ?" in a search engine.
    - skinkestek 5y ago
      No, you are right. This is the way anyone with a clue would approach search until Google broke it: search for words or phrases within the page.
      - samstave 5y ago
        I always search as such: "perfect steak recipe" "perfect grilled chicken" and such... typically resulting in the best results. "R53 mini cooper fuel filter" reduce the words to the core of the question, and get good results.
    - alex_sf 5y ago
      Yeah, you used to have to think of specific, unique keywords that would appear in the page you were searching for. A lot of people couldn't break the habit of asking questions, so search engines just started accepting it and trying to optimize for it.
      - 5y ago

0xedd 5y ago

Define better first. If by better you mean supporting a competitive market that doesn't strengthen the monopoly Google has on search and their results which, as years go by, are augmented for their benefit but not yours, then anything is better than Google. If by better you mean increased chances that the first few results will contain the answer you need, then Google is still king. That being said, when it comes to tech, with most answers found in open git issues or stackoverflow, i find brave search sufficient. So much so that i haven't used any of Google's services in over a year. The real question is, what are you willing to compromise? There's an in-between for the two extremes above and the choice is subjective. An exciting alternative is https://neeva.com/ https://neeva.com/ I'll happily pay money for a privacy oriented search engine as i do for email, cloud storage and NextCloud. We shouldn't expect things to be given to us for free. I work, they work, we can do a fair trade with some iou derivatives.

dijonman2 5y ago

It’s very clear Google has censorship and biases. If you search for some subjects you will get vague unrelated results, but legitimate results from say Bing. An example of this is anything related to the sex industry. I find this with coronavirus as well.

marginalia_nu 5y ago
All search engines have some form of implicit bias. An unbiased search engine would be beyond useless at actually finding anything but extremely well specified queries. The trick is to tune the bias to favor results that are interesting and relevant. This is also why having just one big search engine is a bad idea.
- otherotherchris 5y ago
  Not bias, deliberate disappearance of specific categories of ideas. Independent blogs and forums not owned by large silicon valley companies have disappeared, for example. So have all discussions of current events, except for "mainstream" news publications. Whether this is because of a short term greed motivation to maximize adsense yield or a larger conspiracy of global information control isn't clear yet. But it amounts to the same in practice.
  - wadadadad 5y ago
    Can you give examples of search queries, and blogs and forums that you would expect to show up from those queries?
    - z80x86 5y ago
      Here’s an example on Google search: ‘site:4chan.org wuhan’ returns no results ‘site:4chan.org wuhan institute of virology’ returns 1,710 results
- zelphirkalt 5y ago
  At the very least though, I would expect my search engine to rank results higher, if they contained the words I was looking for, without having to wrap in +"..." every single word. This seems to be something, that few search engines are capable of. Is this very basic thing labeled as "advanced" now?
  - hallway_monitor 5y ago
    That's how most search algos work out of the box. Google used to work that way. I agree; it's getting worse. It's not obvious if this is being done purposely but the result is that Google is basically unusable for a lot of searches now.
    - marginalia_nu 5y ago
      Google's moved to vector search, which doesn't lend itself to keyword prioritization in the same way classic keyword search does. I think that's 90% of the problem.
      - skinkestek 5y ago
        So finally I have a name for the utter madness that hit Google a decade ago? Vector search is that the thing that makes it ignore my search query and search for something else? Also, is this the problem Bing has? And is it much much cheaper since they choose to use only use something so utterly ridiculously broken? Edit: I'm obviously exaggerating heavily here but this has cost me so much time and frustration. I agree with others: if pages exist that contains the exact matches why don't return them first?
endisneigh 5y ago
Examples?

exikyut 5y ago
Try generating a Google Takeout from https://takeout.google.com/ https://takeout.google.com/ and see what turns up in it. While it's always interesting/practical ("just because") to have a full takeout sitting around locally, that would probably create a multiple GB tome (all of Gmail, Drive, ...) that would a day or two to generate and then potentially a while more to download, so for this experiment hitting "Deselect all" and then checking "Calendar" should be good enough. The process of generating the takeout archive and downloading it are distinctly separate steps with some indeterminate amount of time in between, so you could very likely initiate the takeout from your phone, then follow up on the download link(s) it emails you when you get to a computer (IIRC the archive(s) hang around for a couple of days). If you do indeed find deleted entries (nooo), I found that (a) Google Calendar itself has no auto-delete functionality (https://support.google.com/calendar/thread/3530801/how-do-i-automatically-delete-appointments-from-the-calendar-once-they-have-passed https://support.google.com/calendar/thread/3530801/how-do-i-...), but that if you have your calendar set up to sync with other software, that software might be issuing "deletion" requests (possibly under the guise of auto-cleanup...?) that is then getting synced back to Google Calendar (https://support.google.com/calendar/thread/8849196/my-calendar-s-event-keep-automatically-deleting https://support.google.com/calendar/thread/8849196/my-calend..., https://www.makeuseof.com/events-deleted-automatically-google-calendar/ https://www.makeuseof.com/events-deleted-automatically-googl...).
- m-i-l 5y ago
  Back at a desktop computer now. Thanks for the tip. The only time I'd used Google Takeout was when I migrated away from Google Play Music, but in that case it generated 100s of gigabytes of data over dozens of zip files so I didn't do much with it in the end. Looks like it is quite useable for Google Calendar though. I've data going back to 2013, which is when I moved from an Evolution (offline) calendar to the (online) Google one, so it is quite possible it could go back longer for people who have been using it longer. And it turns out that my daughter had been to a birthday party at the same building and floor in 2014, but at a different door (flat 3 rather than flat 2).