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FYI, in case you don’t have kids: A number of vaccines are already required for school children. If COVID continues to be a problem, it’s not surprising at all

FYI, in case you don’t have kids: A number of vaccines are already required for school children. If COVID continues to be a problem, it’s not surprising at all that the vaccine will get added to those lists.

nikolay 5y ago
timr 5y ago
> If COVID continues to be a problem, it’s not surprising at all that the vaccine will get added to those lists. There's a huge difference. This vaccine has a miniscule benefit for kids. We've never before mandated a vaccine for children that didn't provide a sizable benefit to the child him or herself. Mandatory vaccinations for school-age children exclusively target illnesses with high childhood morbidity/mortality: Measles, Polio, Chickenpox, DtP. SARS-CoV2, thankfully, is safer than influenza for kids. As of right now, the CDC says that 727 kids have died in the US with Covid throughout the entire pandemic: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm
- Avshalom 5y ago
  I had to get tetanus and hep-b vaccines to go to school in Florida twenty years ago. ETA: here's the current list of required vaccines in FL http://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immunization/children-and-adolescents/school-immunization-requirements/index.html http://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immunizat...
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    The tetanus vaccine for children probably makes sense. In recent years, tetanus has been fatal in approximately 11% of reported cases. Cases most likely to be fatal are those occurring in persons age 60 years or older and unvaccinated persons. In about 20% of tetanus deaths, no obvious pathology is identified and death is attributed to the direct effects of tetanus toxin. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/tetanus.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/tetanus.html I'd argue the heb-b vaccine is a good idea too.
  - timr 5y ago
    Yes, and both of those make sense. Tetanus is incredibly common and kills many babies, even today: https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-017-4111-4 https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s... > Figure 1 shows the global age-sex distribution of tetanus mortality in 2015. Tetanus deaths were concentrated in neonates when they were compared with deaths in each of the other age categories Hep B infection during childhood leads to chronic hepatitis in 95% of cases: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/hepatitis-b https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/hepatitis-b > Hepatitis B infection acquired in adulthood leads to chronic hepatitis in less than 5% of cases, whereas infection in infancy and early childhood leads to chronic hepatitis in about 95% of cases. This is the basis for strengthening and prioritizing infant and childhood vaccination. In both cases, children are being vaccinated for their own direct benefit, not some vague, external benefit to others. (Also, it's worth pointing out that we mandate these vaccinates for school-age children because that's the first time such a mandate can be enforced. Babies are supposed to be vaccinated for both within the first six months of life: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...)
  - raxxorrax 5y ago
    Tetanus is on a completely different threat. It can be everywhere in the soil and infection can mean almost certain death, crippling disabilities should you survive. Every vaccine must be evaluated alone on its specific benefit. As far as we know the protection doesn't even last a year, a tetanus vaccine might need refreshment after 10 years but would still offer some protection.
rajin444 5y ago
tick_tock_tick 5y ago
California has always been extremely generous with exemptions, part of why measles and whooping cough were/are making a comeback here, this seems to tighten some of that.
- e4e78a06 5y ago
  Mostly because it has become politically expedient to tighten exemptions. In the past the demographic requesting exemptions was mostly liberal hipsters, so there were generous exemptions, but now that the Democratic party stands for COVID vaccination mandates the exemptions are being tightened.
  - Cornelius267 5y ago
    The post that you are replying to says that these exemptions were tightened years before Covid-19 existed.
- drewda 5y ago
  After the big measles outbreak at Disneyland in 2014, California tightened school vaccination requirements: Senate Bill 277, passed in 2015, removed personal belief exemptions for mandated vaccinations. Senate Bill 276, passed in 2019, further tightened up what counts as a valid medical exemption. Above details from this overview: https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/07/24/no-california-does-not-have-a-personal-belief-exemption-for-covid-19-vaccines-for-kids/ https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/07/24/no-california-d... I, for one, am glad to live in a state with strong and consistent vaccination requirements for school children.
  - crackercrews 5y ago
    > I, for one, am glad to live in a state with strong and consistent vaccination requirements for school children. Do you think kids should be mandated to be vaccinated for a disease they've already had? What if that vaccine does not appear to prevent illness or spread? What if the vaccine does not have full FDA approval?
collias 5y ago
Those vaccines are actually sterilizing/neutralizing, preventing infection for diseases that are significantly harmful for children. The Covid-19 vaccines famously are not sterilizing, and Covid-19 itself does not pose any sort of significant risk to otherwise healthy children.
- pianoben 5y ago
  - steelstraw 5y ago
    I'd encourage you to do some cursory risk benefit analysis before spreading baseless fear like this. The flu is more dangerous to kids (see slide #17 here https://www.fda.gov/media/153508/download https://www.fda.gov/media/153508/download) and it has "long" symptoms too. It's not unusual. Driving them to and from school is 10x more dangerous. An unvaccinated kid has risks lower than a vaccinated adult. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-infection-vaccine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-i... Besides, many (most?) kids have already had Covid anyway. I'm tired of the fear mongering and acting as though Covid is the only risk in the real world. Or as though you're going to hide from it forever. It's endemic and we have the vaccines for those at risk. Go back to normal and quit pushing your neurosis on kids. Please. We've disrupted their lives far too much already.
    - BobbyJo 5y ago
      > Driving them to and from school is 20x more dangerous Do you have data to back that up? Genuine question. A lot of people pull numbers out of thin air when the topic is touchy.
      - bseidensticker 5y ago
        Those were certainly pulled out of thin air. All these numbers are for the US: Approx 38k people killed in cars in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in..., lets assume the same for 2021 so 76k dead. Approx 850k people killed by covid https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm So covid killed more than 10x as many Americans as cars did (not including pedestrians). That doesn't take into account age though. CDC shows only 727 dead in the 0-17 age range. For cars, it seems that at least in 2006, about 2000-2500 children 16 and under were killed in cars: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810853 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... Seems like cars are a few times more deadly for kids than covid, but covid killed way more Americans of all ages. Not a great analysis, but it's as good a job as I'm going to do.
tomohawk 5y ago
FYI, those other vaccines actually have benefits for those children. Requiring vaccination when there is almost unmeasurable benefit to the recipient is unethical. It's sad that kids have to bear the brunt of all the fear going on right now.
- version_five 5y ago
  This is an important point I hadn't really considered. It's bad enough having vaccine mandates (I mean having to show proof of vaccine) targeting people going bars or wherever (I'm in Quebec, Canada and apparently now you have to show you're vaccinated to shop at the state run liquor store, that's literally just spite), but bringing kids into the fight is really inappropriate, both on the vaccine side and all the other theatre going on in schools right now. I hope we look back on this with shame and to the extent possible can hold those who have actively gotten us here accountable
- D13Fd 5y ago
  The CDC says the unvaccinated are 5x more likely to get Omicron: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/01/unvaccinated-5x-more-likely-to-get-omicron-than-those-boosted-cdc-reports/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/01/unvaccinated-5x-more... Even if COVID-19 didn't hurt kids directly, a rational state could require them to get vaccinated to tamp down on a major source of community spread and protect people who are hurt more by the virus. Getting vaccinated is far from the worst thing the government makes people do. The U.S. government still runs the military draft, and has forced unwilling people to go fight and die in miserable circumstances for a cause they think is unjust. By comparison, getting a vaccine to protect the community is small potatoes.
  - peteradio 5y ago
    > Even if COVID-19 didn't hurt kids directly, a rational state could require them to get vaccinated to tamp down on a major source of community spread Prove this first, then weigh the risk/benefits publicly. > The U.S. government still runs the military draft, The United States military has been all-volunteer since 1973, no?
nathanaldensr 5y ago
- PragmaticPulp 5y ago
  > Except that 1) these aren't vaccines, Nope, they’re vaccines. > 3) children rarely even show symptoms from SARS-CoV-2 infection This is beyond false. I don’t know where you’re getting these talking points.
trembonator 5y ago
sershe 5y ago
The worst part about this in my view is that the fair pushback against this (the vaccine efficiency is low compared to these other vaccines, and the danger to children from COVID is non-existent) will be co-opted against other vaccines that actually matter.
lr1970 5y ago
> A number of vaccines are already required for school children. To the best of my knowledge all the vaccines on the required list are fully FDA approved. COVID-19 one has a lesser "FDA emergency authorization".

nikolay 5y ago

timr 5y ago

> If COVID continues to be a problem, it’s not surprising at all that the vaccine will get added to those lists. There's a huge difference. This vaccine has a miniscule benefit for kids. We've never before mandated a vaccine for children that didn't provide a sizable benefit to the child him or herself. Mandatory vaccinations for school-age children exclusively target illnesses with high childhood morbidity/mortality: Measles, Polio, Chickenpox, DtP. SARS-CoV2, thankfully, is safer than influenza for kids. As of right now, the CDC says that 727 kids have died in the US with Covid throughout the entire pandemic: https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm

Avshalom 5y ago
I had to get tetanus and hep-b vaccines to go to school in Florida twenty years ago. ETA: here's the current list of required vaccines in FL http://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immunization/children-and-adolescents/school-immunization-requirements/index.html http://www.floridahealth.gov/programs-and-services/immunizat...
- TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
  The tetanus vaccine for children probably makes sense. In recent years, tetanus has been fatal in approximately 11% of reported cases. Cases most likely to be fatal are those occurring in persons age 60 years or older and unvaccinated persons. In about 20% of tetanus deaths, no obvious pathology is identified and death is attributed to the direct effects of tetanus toxin. https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/tetanus.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/pubs/pinkbook/tetanus.html I'd argue the heb-b vaccine is a good idea too.
- timr 5y ago
  Yes, and both of those make sense. Tetanus is incredibly common and kills many babies, even today: https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12889-017-4111-4 https://bmcpublichealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s... > Figure 1 shows the global age-sex distribution of tetanus mortality in 2015. Tetanus deaths were concentrated in neonates when they were compared with deaths in each of the other age categories Hep B infection during childhood leads to chronic hepatitis in 95% of cases: https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/hepatitis-b https://www.who.int/news-room/fact-sheets/detail/hepatitis-b > Hepatitis B infection acquired in adulthood leads to chronic hepatitis in less than 5% of cases, whereas infection in infancy and early childhood leads to chronic hepatitis in about 95% of cases. This is the basis for strengthening and prioritizing infant and childhood vaccination. In both cases, children are being vaccinated for their own direct benefit, not some vague, external benefit to others. (Also, it's worth pointing out that we mandate these vaccinates for school-age children because that's the first time such a mandate can be enforced. Babies are supposed to be vaccinated for both within the first six months of life: https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolescent.html https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/schedules/hcp/imz/child-adolesc...)
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  Tetanus is on a completely different threat. It can be everywhere in the soil and infection can mean almost certain death, crippling disabilities should you survive. Every vaccine must be evaluated alone on its specific benefit. As far as we know the protection doesn't even last a year, a tetanus vaccine might need refreshment after 10 years but would still offer some protection.

rajin444 5y ago

tick_tock_tick 5y ago

California has always been extremely generous with exemptions, part of why measles and whooping cough were/are making a comeback here, this seems to tighten some of that.

e4e78a06 5y ago
Mostly because it has become politically expedient to tighten exemptions. In the past the demographic requesting exemptions was mostly liberal hipsters, so there were generous exemptions, but now that the Democratic party stands for COVID vaccination mandates the exemptions are being tightened.
- Cornelius267 5y ago
  The post that you are replying to says that these exemptions were tightened years before Covid-19 existed.
drewda 5y ago
After the big measles outbreak at Disneyland in 2014, California tightened school vaccination requirements: Senate Bill 277, passed in 2015, removed personal belief exemptions for mandated vaccinations. Senate Bill 276, passed in 2019, further tightened up what counts as a valid medical exemption. Above details from this overview: https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/07/24/no-california-does-not-have-a-personal-belief-exemption-for-covid-19-vaccines-for-kids/ https://www.capradio.org/articles/2021/07/24/no-california-d... I, for one, am glad to live in a state with strong and consistent vaccination requirements for school children.
- crackercrews 5y ago
  > I, for one, am glad to live in a state with strong and consistent vaccination requirements for school children. Do you think kids should be mandated to be vaccinated for a disease they've already had? What if that vaccine does not appear to prevent illness or spread? What if the vaccine does not have full FDA approval?

collias 5y ago

Those vaccines are actually sterilizing/neutralizing, preventing infection for diseases that are significantly harmful for children. The Covid-19 vaccines famously are not sterilizing, and Covid-19 itself does not pose any sort of significant risk to otherwise healthy children.

pianoben 5y ago
- steelstraw 5y ago
  I'd encourage you to do some cursory risk benefit analysis before spreading baseless fear like this. The flu is more dangerous to kids (see slide #17 here https://www.fda.gov/media/153508/download https://www.fda.gov/media/153508/download) and it has "long" symptoms too. It's not unusual. Driving them to and from school is 10x more dangerous. An unvaccinated kid has risks lower than a vaccinated adult. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-infection-vaccine.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/12/briefing/covid-age-risk-i... Besides, many (most?) kids have already had Covid anyway. I'm tired of the fear mongering and acting as though Covid is the only risk in the real world. Or as though you're going to hide from it forever. It's endemic and we have the vaccines for those at risk. Go back to normal and quit pushing your neurosis on kids. Please. We've disrupted their lives far too much already.
  - BobbyJo 5y ago
    > Driving them to and from school is 20x more dangerous Do you have data to back that up? Genuine question. A lot of people pull numbers out of thin air when the topic is touchy.
    - bseidensticker 5y ago
      Those were certainly pulled out of thin air. All these numbers are for the US: Approx 38k people killed in cars in 2020: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in_U.S._by_year https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Motor_vehicle_fatality_rate_in..., lets assume the same for 2021 so 76k dead. Approx 850k people killed by covid https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/nvss/vsrr/covid_weekly/index.htm So covid killed more than 10x as many Americans as cars did (not including pedestrians). That doesn't take into account age though. CDC shows only 727 dead in the 0-17 age range. For cars, it seems that at least in 2006, about 2000-2500 children 16 and under were killed in cars: https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/810853 https://crashstats.nhtsa.dot.gov/Api/Public/ViewPublication/... Seems like cars are a few times more deadly for kids than covid, but covid killed way more Americans of all ages. Not a great analysis, but it's as good a job as I'm going to do.

tomohawk 5y ago

FYI, those other vaccines actually have benefits for those children. Requiring vaccination when there is almost unmeasurable benefit to the recipient is unethical. It's sad that kids have to bear the brunt of all the fear going on right now.

version_five 5y ago
This is an important point I hadn't really considered. It's bad enough having vaccine mandates (I mean having to show proof of vaccine) targeting people going bars or wherever (I'm in Quebec, Canada and apparently now you have to show you're vaccinated to shop at the state run liquor store, that's literally just spite), but bringing kids into the fight is really inappropriate, both on the vaccine side and all the other theatre going on in schools right now. I hope we look back on this with shame and to the extent possible can hold those who have actively gotten us here accountable
D13Fd 5y ago
The CDC says the unvaccinated are 5x more likely to get Omicron: https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/01/unvaccinated-5x-more-likely-to-get-omicron-than-those-boosted-cdc-reports/ https://arstechnica.com/science/2022/01/unvaccinated-5x-more... Even if COVID-19 didn't hurt kids directly, a rational state could require them to get vaccinated to tamp down on a major source of community spread and protect people who are hurt more by the virus. Getting vaccinated is far from the worst thing the government makes people do. The U.S. government still runs the military draft, and has forced unwilling people to go fight and die in miserable circumstances for a cause they think is unjust. By comparison, getting a vaccine to protect the community is small potatoes.
- peteradio 5y ago
  > Even if COVID-19 didn't hurt kids directly, a rational state could require them to get vaccinated to tamp down on a major source of community spread Prove this first, then weigh the risk/benefits publicly. > The U.S. government still runs the military draft, The United States military has been all-volunteer since 1973, no?

nathanaldensr 5y ago

PragmaticPulp 5y ago
> Except that 1) these aren't vaccines, Nope, they’re vaccines. > 3) children rarely even show symptoms from SARS-CoV-2 infection This is beyond false. I don’t know where you’re getting these talking points.

trembonator 5y ago

sershe 5y ago

The worst part about this in my view is that the fair pushback against this (the vaccine efficiency is low compared to these other vaccines, and the danger to children from COVID is non-existent) will be co-opted against other vaccines that actually matter.

lr1970 5y ago

> A number of vaccines are already required for school children. To the best of my knowledge all the vaccines on the required list are fully FDA approved. COVID-19 one has a lesser "FDA emergency authorization".