5 ms·

Ohio is situated on the great lakes and therefore has a lot of cheaply available water, while Arizona does not. Chip production is water intensive. Not to menti

Ohio is situated on the great lakes and therefore has a lot of cheaply available water, while Arizona does not. Chip production is water intensive. Not to mention the vast expanses of cheap land, and their electricity costs are pretty low as well. These could be reasons.

jandrese 5y ago
I thought that while chip production uses a lot of water, the water is mostly not consumed in the process and due to environmental regulation the water has to be cleaned at the plant so they form a closed loop system. It takes a lot of water when the plant is built, but after that it requires only a small amount of water to continue running.
adventured 5y ago
It's political distribution, to be called upon as needed. Same reason NASA is sprawled the way it is. You can more easily get numerous Senators to go to bat for you and your various causes (Arizona is a growth state, Ohio still has a lot of clout (not as much as CA, TX, FL obviously)).
jdhn 5y ago
They're building the plant near Columbus, which isn't near the Great Lakes. If they wanted Great Lakes water they would've chosen Cleveland, which is very close to Lake Erie.
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Are you from California? It rains a ton in that part of the country, water is not scarce. It’s hard for Californians to wrap their heads around but water is not universally rare.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  Semantically, damning water in the Great Lakes Watershed (how Columbus get's its water) is not THAT different from letting that water flow into Lake Erie and then piping it back. Point being, Ohio has very few long-term drought concerns.
  - todfox 5y ago
    Columbus is not in the Lake Erie watershed. It is in the Ohio River watershed. The Great Lakes Compact does not allow Columbus to get its water from Lake Erie.
  - giraffe_lady 5y ago
    There are actually extremely specific and intense rules about which parts of the country can take water from the great lakes and what burdens they incur when they do. It's not necessarily aligned with any specific jurisdictions either, I believe it's largely based on the boundaries of the watersheds. Or at least where the boundary was ascertained to be at some point. So yes it's very different, regardless of the semantics(?).
    - kesselvon 5y ago
      The idea that the Great Lakes are going to be tapped to solve water problems outside the watershed is fall flat when they realize those Great Lakes states aren't going to sell off access like that. I remember some moonshot proposal to pipe the water to the Southwest, which is wild.
      - Scoundreller 5y ago
        There might be redirecting (or excessive drawing) of tributaries though.
        Kon-Peki 5y ago
        It's surprising, actually, how small the Great Lakes watershed is, compared to the surface area of the lakes. You really aren't going to get much of anything from tributaries; if you want some of the water you draw it from the lakes.
  - theandrewbailey 5y ago
    > Semantically, damning water in the Great Lakes Watershed (how Columbus get's its water) Wrong. Columbus gets most of its water from the Scioto River, part of the Ohio/Mississippi River watershed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scioto_River https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scioto_River You might be thinking about Cleveland instead, but I don't think anyone dares drink from the Cuyahoga River, since its had a history of catching fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River
- graycat 5y ago
  > Cleveland, which is very close to Lake Erie. It's on the shore of Lake Erie. If it were any closer to Lake Erie it would be underwater! Lake Erie is not so far from Columbus: When I was a prof at Ohio State, my wife and I would go to Lake Erie just for a pleasant Saturday afternoon. So we'd go to Cleveland, ..., Sandusky, etc.
pkulak 5y ago
Yeah, but they are building in Columbus.
brewdad 5y ago
Water in AZ is some of the cheapest in the country. At least until Lake Powell runs dry. Not a bad idea to spread the risks around however.
- spaetzleesser 5y ago
  When you look at Lake Mead and Lake Powell lately it seems they are well on the path to running dry.
- xxpor 5y ago
  No wonder they grow all that lettuce in Yuma. Seems extremely stupid from a long term perspective, but what do I know. I'm just a software guy.
  - bcrosby95 5y ago
    They grow lettuce in Yuma during the winter because it's warm enough to grow it there during the winter. Something around 90% of the USA's winter grown leafy greens produce comes from Yuma.
    - xxpor 5y ago
      Why not florida?
- reaperducer 5y ago
  At least until Lake Powell runs dry Which is coming a lot quicker than anyone expected. It's why all of the cities and water authorities hooked up to Powell and the other Colorado River reservoirs are in panic mode these days. Just a few weeks ago, the various states came to an agreement about cutting water use. Lake Mead is at historic lows. There are mandatory federal restrictions either in effect, or about to start.
ksec 5y ago
Modern Fabs can recycle its water usage by up to 90%. Electricity cost for Business in both state seems to be about the same. Land are cheap as well ( From what I have been told ). You do get operational efficiency from having Fabs all located within one place. And that is a quote from TSMC's ex-CEO Morris Chang. That is why I wonder if there is something missing. Or is it the simplest explanation Not to put all eggs in one basket.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  Arguments can be made that TSMC's choice to consolidate locations is part of the reason that we have a semi shortage right now (concentrated water shortage risk, concentrated worker illness risk, etc. etc.)
- vasili111 5y ago
  > Or is it the simplest explanation Not to put all eggs in one basket. I think this is important part. If something happens to one site (problem with electricity, etc) other will work. Also, it maybe easier to find workforce that way. Also it will be good for development for that regions.
- mirker 5y ago
  One guess: if the reliability of Intel is considered a national security issue, they may get funding specifically to be more reliable to offset these costs.
pradn 5y ago
All this sounds irrelevant when an ASML machine costs $100 million a pop.
- vasili111 5y ago
  > ASML machine costs It seems that cost maybe around $300 million each: https://whbl.com/2022/01/19/intel-orders-asml-machine-still-on-drawing-board-as-chipmakers-look-for-an-edge/ https://whbl.com/2022/01/19/intel-orders-asml-machine-still-...
  - dralley 5y ago
    Those are the new high-NA EUV machines. The current gen ones are more in the range of 150 million.

jandrese 5y ago

I thought that while chip production uses a lot of water, the water is mostly not consumed in the process and due to environmental regulation the water has to be cleaned at the plant so they form a closed loop system. It takes a lot of water when the plant is built, but after that it requires only a small amount of water to continue running.

adventured 5y ago

It's political distribution, to be called upon as needed. Same reason NASA is sprawled the way it is. You can more easily get numerous Senators to go to bat for you and your various causes (Arizona is a growth state, Ohio still has a lot of clout (not as much as CA, TX, FL obviously)).

jdhn 5y ago

They're building the plant near Columbus, which isn't near the Great Lakes. If they wanted Great Lakes water they would've chosen Cleveland, which is very close to Lake Erie.

thehappypm 5y ago
Are you from California? It rains a ton in that part of the country, water is not scarce. It’s hard for Californians to wrap their heads around but water is not universally rare.
RC_ITR 5y ago
Semantically, damning water in the Great Lakes Watershed (how Columbus get's its water) is not THAT different from letting that water flow into Lake Erie and then piping it back. Point being, Ohio has very few long-term drought concerns.
- todfox 5y ago
  Columbus is not in the Lake Erie watershed. It is in the Ohio River watershed. The Great Lakes Compact does not allow Columbus to get its water from Lake Erie.
- giraffe_lady 5y ago
  There are actually extremely specific and intense rules about which parts of the country can take water from the great lakes and what burdens they incur when they do. It's not necessarily aligned with any specific jurisdictions either, I believe it's largely based on the boundaries of the watersheds. Or at least where the boundary was ascertained to be at some point. So yes it's very different, regardless of the semantics(?).
  - kesselvon 5y ago
    The idea that the Great Lakes are going to be tapped to solve water problems outside the watershed is fall flat when they realize those Great Lakes states aren't going to sell off access like that. I remember some moonshot proposal to pipe the water to the Southwest, which is wild.
    - Scoundreller 5y ago
      There might be redirecting (or excessive drawing) of tributaries though.
      - Kon-Peki 5y ago
        It's surprising, actually, how small the Great Lakes watershed is, compared to the surface area of the lakes. You really aren't going to get much of anything from tributaries; if you want some of the water you draw it from the lakes.
- theandrewbailey 5y ago
  > Semantically, damning water in the Great Lakes Watershed (how Columbus get's its water) Wrong. Columbus gets most of its water from the Scioto River, part of the Ohio/Mississippi River watershed. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scioto_River https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scioto_River You might be thinking about Cleveland instead, but I don't think anyone dares drink from the Cuyahoga River, since its had a history of catching fire. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuyahoga_River
graycat 5y ago
> Cleveland, which is very close to Lake Erie. It's on the shore of Lake Erie. If it were any closer to Lake Erie it would be underwater! Lake Erie is not so far from Columbus: When I was a prof at Ohio State, my wife and I would go to Lake Erie just for a pleasant Saturday afternoon. So we'd go to Cleveland, ..., Sandusky, etc.

pkulak 5y ago

Yeah, but they are building in Columbus.

brewdad 5y ago

Water in AZ is some of the cheapest in the country. At least until Lake Powell runs dry. Not a bad idea to spread the risks around however.

spaetzleesser 5y ago
When you look at Lake Mead and Lake Powell lately it seems they are well on the path to running dry.
xxpor 5y ago
No wonder they grow all that lettuce in Yuma. Seems extremely stupid from a long term perspective, but what do I know. I'm just a software guy.
- bcrosby95 5y ago
  They grow lettuce in Yuma during the winter because it's warm enough to grow it there during the winter. Something around 90% of the USA's winter grown leafy greens produce comes from Yuma.
  - xxpor 5y ago
    Why not florida?
reaperducer 5y ago
At least until Lake Powell runs dry Which is coming a lot quicker than anyone expected. It's why all of the cities and water authorities hooked up to Powell and the other Colorado River reservoirs are in panic mode these days. Just a few weeks ago, the various states came to an agreement about cutting water use. Lake Mead is at historic lows. There are mandatory federal restrictions either in effect, or about to start.

ksec 5y ago

Modern Fabs can recycle its water usage by up to 90%. Electricity cost for Business in both state seems to be about the same. Land are cheap as well ( From what I have been told ). You do get operational efficiency from having Fabs all located within one place. And that is a quote from TSMC's ex-CEO Morris Chang. That is why I wonder if there is something missing. Or is it the simplest explanation Not to put all eggs in one basket.

RC_ITR 5y ago
Arguments can be made that TSMC's choice to consolidate locations is part of the reason that we have a semi shortage right now (concentrated water shortage risk, concentrated worker illness risk, etc. etc.)
vasili111 5y ago
> Or is it the simplest explanation Not to put all eggs in one basket. I think this is important part. If something happens to one site (problem with electricity, etc) other will work. Also, it maybe easier to find workforce that way. Also it will be good for development for that regions.
mirker 5y ago
One guess: if the reliability of Intel is considered a national security issue, they may get funding specifically to be more reliable to offset these costs.

pradn 5y ago

All this sounds irrelevant when an ASML machine costs $100 million a pop.

vasili111 5y ago
> ASML machine costs It seems that cost maybe around $300 million each: https://whbl.com/2022/01/19/intel-orders-asml-machine-still-on-drawing-board-as-chipmakers-look-for-an-edge/ https://whbl.com/2022/01/19/intel-orders-asml-machine-still-...
- dralley 5y ago
  Those are the new high-NA EUV machines. The current gen ones are more in the range of 150 million.