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I've been critical of Tesla before for various reasons, "Building throwaway cars" being one, and people keep insisting that, no, really, this year, Tesla has fi

by Syonyk 5y ago

I've been critical of Tesla before for various reasons, "Building throwaway cars" being one, and people keep insisting that, no, really, this year, Tesla has fixed their problems and such. If you can deliver a car without a brake pad, that speaks to epic quality control failures (EDIT: A comment in the article points out the green "quality control" mark that is obvious on the caliper, which should indicate that everything was assembled properly - so things are seriously broken if it can be assembled wrong and then have a QC mark applied while still being entirely wrong). I cannot imagine Honda or Toyota shipping a car without a brake pad. I can't imagine Ford or GM doing it either. I'd be down into the "Uh... I think I've heard of you once..." non-western car manufacturers before it wouldn't surprise me. Then, the absolutely horrid service center experience of "Oh, no, you don't know what you're talking about, that's normal, and we can't fix it any time soon anyway" is just absurd. I know Tesla likes to rag on the horrors of the dealership model, but, seriously, I can't imagine getting this treatment with a legacy automaker. Not that I worry about them forgetting to put pieces in, either.

jahewson 5y ago
> Not that I worry about them forgetting to put pieces in, either. Google suggests that you should: https://www.google.com/search?q=missing+brake+pad+recall https://www.google.com/search?q=missing+brake+pad+recall
- AnthonyMouse 5y ago
  - kristjansson 5y ago
    I’ll await Teslas recall of all units possibly affected by this issue
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      Goalposts wherever you like. Is there even any evidence that there are any other units affected by this issue?
      - bch 5y ago
        > Is there even any evidence that there are any other units affected by this issue? If their QC is that broken, aren’t the cars that passed through it suspect? Edit: within a proper timeframe window.
      - kristjansson 5y ago
        One instance is evidence their process failed at least once. At a minimum they need to identify the process failure and the cars the could have been affected, and issue a recall or TSB to verify none of those cars are missing brake pads.
  - joezydeco 5y ago
    https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna54596 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna54596 "General Motors knew about a defect in its ignition switches eight years ago and changed the design of an internal part, but never told federal regulators or the drivers of its cars, according to evidence from a recent lawsuit filed by the parents of a Georgia woman who died in a 2010 GM car crash"
    - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
      It's not that nobody writes the story, it's that nobody sees the story.
      - jolux 5y ago
        Nah this was all over the news. I heard about it. Everyone I know heard about it, especially if they're into cars. See also Toyota's infamous sticky accelerator recall, or the Takata airbag recall. The difference is that Tesla didn't have a near-perfect history of shipping reliable vehicles for decades before screwing up like this the way Toyota did. Tesla's reputation is slowly being formed by failures such as these. I already know several people who have elected to get a Mach-E instead of a Tesla because of concerns about quality. If they don't improve they're going to be seen (rather aptly) like the Lotus of electric cars in a few years: beautiful, powerful shitboxes that nobody wants to have to rely on as a daily driver.
      - specto 5y ago
        Who's fault is that? It's still news....
      - ra7 5y ago
        So the car company with the most hype attracts the most attention? I don't see what the issue is.
        AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        First line of GM recall story (https://www.motortrend.com/news/whoops-2012-chevrolet-sonics-recalled-for-possible-missing-front-brake-pads-152143/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/whoops-2012-chevrolet-sonics...): > General Motors is recalling some 4300 units of its 2012 Chevrolet Sonic after finding that some of the Sonics were missing front brake pads. First line of this story: > Tesla is oftentimes accused of presenting a shiny veneer to the public and its shareholders, only to show its ugly side to employees and customers. The GM story is dry, factual. There's no indignation. It's less than a quarter of the length of the Tesla story. Nobody's going to get worked up and spread it around social media. That's not just about who the companies are, it's about how the media reports the stories.
  - darksaints 5y ago
    You were just linked to a google search full of press reports about a missing brake pad recall, and the entire front page was results about GM, and your response is that the press is silent as long as it's not Tesla? Seriously?
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Especially because Tesla is considered some new popular tech company, the media is focusing on them a lot more compared to traditional automakers. There are hundreds of recalls a year[0], and yes, there are articles on most of them, but it's all in an attempt to capture SEO for 'recalls for <year make model>' and thus low-visibility; but any time the 'Apple of Cars' issues a recall, it turns into a reuters article and thus 10 other publications publish a story on it, where it continues to spread like wildfire. All recalls are warranted, even when done voluntarily for small manufacturing issues, but you can't deny that articles about Teslas having issues are guaranteed to generate more clicks and thus more ad revenue than one about some years-old Ford or GM vehicle. 0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/2020_nhtsa_recall_annual_report_021021-tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/2020_n...
      - otterley 5y ago
        If Elon Musk wasn’t such an asshole, he probably wouldn’t attract extra attention in the first place. (Yet note that there is no quantitative evidence presented here that Tesla gets more attention than other manufacturers when defects arise.) People often make their own problems by making outrageous claims in the first place.
        judge2020 5y ago
        It at least gets more attention from the tech crowd. https://hn.algolia.com/?q=recall https://hn.algolia.com/?q=recall The only car recalls with more points on HN than the Tesla ones are Hyundai (regarding South Korea being soft on them; the issue was already a recall in the US) and the VW emissions scandal.
    - 5y ago
  - 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
    This seems like one of those things where a tech guy thinks he can just come in and "disrupt things" and mistakes are made because they never bothered to look at what the incumbents were doing and why. The thing you are missing is also the frequency of mistakes, consistency in the vehicles in general, how well they manage the problem to fix it, and the number of defects relative to vehicles on the road. This entire article sounds like Google or Amazon level Don't-Give-A-Shit about the customer applied to cars. And some of their mistakes are mind boggling: https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-roof-flies-off-convertible-quality-issue https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-roo... https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-owner-details-quality-control-issues-remains-supporter-2021-9 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-owner-details-quali... "The main issue they have is a lack of consistency,” Nelson said. “I could have rejected the delivery for not meeting my own quality standards, but a new car could take weeks or even months and I’d just be throwing the dice again. The next car could be in even worse shape." Thanks for getting the ball rolling Tesla, but I'll be waiting for the Japanese to perfect it before going electric.
    - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
      Electric is a paradigm shift. What makes you think ICE manufacturers will ever be able to catch Tesla?
      - Aloha 5y ago
        Is it? Economy of scale would seem to win the day in the end. Building an electric car is not fundamentally different than building an ICE one. Changing the drivetrain does not change the rest of the vehicle that much, other than packaging, and thats pretty easy to figure out, any competent manufacturing engineer can do it.
      - 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
        What makes you think Tesla can resolve all their problems and produce a car everyone wants to buy at the right price point before everyone else has time to implement their responses? There are plenty of drivers like myself that specifically buy reliable vehicles, 2nd hand. Tesla can’t even match the reliability of my current car that cost less than 1/4 of the cheapest new Tesla. The incumbents have plenty of run way. It remains to be seen what happens.
- userbinator 5y ago
  That looks like, aside from the few Tesla results, exactly one model of Chevy was affected, and they decided to recall them. A missing brake pad is pretty damn obvious, and I'm almost willing to bet that, unlike Tesla, they didn't ignore or make excuses to the people who complained about the strange sound. This "assume the user is completely stupid and we're always right" mentality seems to entirely come from the tech industry.
- tomjakubowski 5y ago
  https://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/30/2012-chevy-sonic-brake-pad-recall/ https://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/30/2012-chevy-sonic-brake-p... GM received a single report from a mechanic of a missing brake pad on a rental Chevy Sonic. They investigated, found some kind of root cause, and out of precaution recalled ~5000 Sonics manufactured around the same time for inspection. (and estimated 20-30 vehicles were affected - it'd be interesting to see how many turned up) Tesla's response thus far is miles apart. Nothing about it gives me confidence in their QC.
  - maxdo 5y ago
    because it's a single incident, there is nothing to recall.
    - throwaway81523 5y ago
      So why can't they install the brake pad without keeping the car for close to a month? They are building model 3s on the assembly line right now right? They have brake pads in the factory? Pull one out of there and put it in this messed up car. If that means delaying assembly of an in-manufacturing model 3 til there are more brake pads, then so be it. You need to have enough brake pads to equip all your cars, especially the cars that you have already shipped.
      - sokoloff 5y ago
        It is quite likely that the caliper will need to be replaced. The hydraulic pressure that would normally activate the brakes has likely pushed the piston out, possibly making contact with the rotor under pressure (or making the seals suspect, having allowed them to travel beyond their design range). That’s the “worrying scraping sound” the owner reported. Your point about “they must have the parts in the country” is a valid one, but it’s probably not going to be just a forgotten pad that they’ll need to slap in there. As a shade tree mechanic, if I’d somehow put my car back on the road without a brake pad, I’d do more than that. I doubt Tesla’s going to think differently with liability on the line.
Tade0 5y ago
> I can't imagine getting this treatment with a legacy automaker. I can. My friend drives a 2016 VW Touareg which he got used - I was present during the purchase and the previous owner told us that the coolant needs to be topped off from time to time - nothing big, but he said that the authorized service center shrugged this off as something they won't bother fixing.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  How much, and how far apart? There's a difference between "half a cup or so ever few months" and "I have to carry coolant around with me." The reserve tank will comfortably make up the first in any reasonable driving situation, the second is a problem. Water pumps not weeping a tiny bit is a rather new innovation in cars. They typically use coolant to lubricate the seal, and some will get through.
  - Tade0 5y ago
    > How much, and how far apart? About a litre every 4-7k km. Was like that from the start according to the previous owner. I found it unusual, because I never had to think about such things in any of my cars, including my old 2000 Corolla.
  - KennyBlanken 5y ago
    I don't know of a single car made in the last 10 years where it's normal to lose "half a cup over every few months." Every car I or my family have owned in the last thirty years has never needed coolant added to it over years of ownership. Water pumps "weeping" coolant is a sign of failed seal, not by design. The GP commenter's buddy was sold a car by someone who was trying to pass off a needed repair; likely a leaking radiator or failing head gasket if they were unlucky. If they were lucky: a bad radiator cap or a failing coolant system hose. If they were really, really unlucky: a failing heater core.
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      Very very much so. Or poor or plastic welds on the coolant manifolds, as plagued my Jaguar, whose coolant system shit the bed catastrophically several times, and even with a factory tech replacing as much as he could with heavier duty aftermarket parts, was only reduced to "needs a top-up every couple of months"
tessierashpool 5y ago
yeah, this is within Tesla's normal QC parameters. they've had roofs fall off, they've had cars catch fire while parked, they even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in the middle of the night with nobody in it. just goofy bullshit. the discussion in this thread will end up on Elon sooner or later, but the thing to realize is that Tesla the company needs it that way. electric vehicles will definitely replace the ICE, but Tesla's not going to be Google when that happens. it'll be Alta Vista or even Minitel. buying one of these cars is just a much bigger QC gamble than it shoild be.
- solarkraft 5y ago
  Actually the Google comparison fits quite well. They also frequently deliver sub-par software while still having an over-all hard to beat ecosystem.
- ajross 5y ago
  > they even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in the middle of the night with nobody in it. You realize that turned out to be a stunt, right? The car was a brand new plaid owned by a hedge fund manager who turned out to be heavily short TSLA. It was seized by his lawyers and never inspected for what the fault might have been. And the "driving itself on fire" story changed several times over the first 24 hours. One of the weirdest things about buying one of these things and suddenly finding myself in the culture/counterculture war over the brand is how suspect so much of the coverage is.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    Most of the coverage is from Whole Mars. So if you're going to call out some hedge fund manager as being "short Tesla", with the implication of ulterior motives, then it's equally worth mentioning that Whole Mars is extremely bearish, unapologetically very pro-Tesla cheerleading, too.
    - ajross 5y ago
      Here's some post-hoc coverage of the controversy: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/04/more-details-about-tesla-model-s-plaid-fire-lead-to-more-questions/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/04/more-details-about-tesl... Make your own decisions. But (especially since it happened just weeks after the refreshed S's started shipping and that we haven't heard squat in the six months since) that just smells off to me. Certainly it wasn't "driving itself around on fire", no further report on the fire exists (contra the Texas crash where the NTSB had lots of interesting things to say) and all the actual witnesses went silent (we don't even have confirmation of who was driving!)... Just be realistic. It's almost certainly a setup. Something very similar happened when FSD beta was released. Not two weeks in the NHTSA had a weird-sounding report leaked to the media claiming behavior (that the steering couldn't be overpowered) that the hardware can't produce. Then the next release, we all had an annoying waiver where we had to allow Tesla to save and upload non-anonymized data for any safety-related incidents. And... no more weird reports! This company just drives people completely bananas, and I genuinely don't know why. The actual cars are fantastic.
foepys 5y ago
The only reason why Tesla hates dealerships is because they don't want to pay them, full stop. All those horrors can also happen without dealerships, see above. Tesla wants people to pay the sticker price without being able to haggle and wants to keep all the profits for itself. VW can deliver EVs for a similar price even with a dealership network. Although, they also started to block haggling by demanding customers to place their orders online via their car configurator. As long as you sell it as innovation, people will jump on it, even if this innovation is costing them more money.
- fallingknife 5y ago
  You think haggling is going to come out in your favor? The dealership does it every day.
  - foepys 5y ago
    If that's the case, why should auto makers now demand you pay sticker price? Public companies don't do anything in your favor, ever. It's always because they think that they can now extract even more money from you.
  - VBprogrammer 5y ago
    At the moment it's hard enough to get hold of a car even if you walk in with the money to pay for it. As such, haggling is unlikely to work. At other times when the dealers are desperate to make a specific quota a good deal is more likely.
  - bityard 5y ago
    People who pay the dealerships asking price on a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.
    - blitzar 5y ago
      People who pay for a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.
- 5y ago
warning26 5y ago
I agree that this is emblematic of Tesla's terrible QC, but your second point about how traditional auto dealerships would mitigate it strikes me as questionable. Being sold a "lemon" has been possible for years, even with the traditional dealership model; that's why so many US states have "lemon laws" specifically to deal with that scenario.
- serf 5y ago
  I did pre-delivery inspections on vehicles for many years at an automotive dealership. one of the numerous things I had to do was test drive every single vehicle. Yes a dealership would have caught this issue before the customer -- absolutely.
- jacquesm 5y ago
  Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to intermittent issues, not a missing part in a safety critical system that should have resulted in a 'stop the line, we have an excess brake pad at the end of our shift', followed by an inspection of all vehicles built on that shift and a serious upgrade of QA processes. Really, this stinks.
  - ajross 5y ago
    > Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to intermittent issues Actually it's a term of some precision, and that's not it. "Lemon" laws define the problem as a car with an inherent defect that can't be fixed by the manufacturer or dealer within some reasonable amount of time (often "three attempts", depending on statute). The purpose of the law is that consumers shouldn't be on the hook for expensive but faulty products. This isn't a lemon by any of those laws. They fixed the brakes and the car is fine now. It's fine to make pronouncements about Quality Culture or whatever, but lemon statutes aren't really at issue here.
    - pdonis 5y ago
      > They fixed the brakes and the car is fine now. Did they? The latest status I get from the article is that the ETA was pushed back again to January 19.
Andys 5y ago
As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. The throwaway effect can an does happen to any ICE vehicle easily, when the engine is not economic to repair. We should have laws covering all types and brands of vehicles to make them more repairable, but ultimately this should be easier with electric (recycling batteries in bulk is cheaper than mining more lithium)
- kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
  An ICE vehicle can last 15+ years. Even more in a benign environment. Tesla doesn't make anything that will last that long.
  - MisterBastahrd 5y ago
    That's why the auto industry is anticipating that leasing will eventually be the standard model. Nobody is going to want to pay half a new car's price just to have a new battery installed.
- DenseComet 5y ago
  Isn't that a function of being an EV rather than an ICE? I'd expect an EV from any of the traditional automakers to also require comparatively little maintenance.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  > As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. It was a reference to an old post of mine (https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwaway-cars/ https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwawa...) - and, I actually agree with you that they do have million-mile grade drivetrains. It's just that the rest of the car is poor quality. That's fine if it's cheap and easy to fix, but it's not. You can't get the parts, you can't install the parts if you can get them because they have to be paired with the car, and, in general, they're like a lot of modern ICEs that fall apart around a running drivetrain. Except worse, because they're luxury cars and you can't even do the repair work yourself.
jolux 5y ago
It's not about the dealership model, it's about taking quality seriously and not just slapping things together and pushing them out the door with minimal QC like a software startup in a tight market. It's clear by now that Elon thinks it's more important to ship more cars than to ship quality cars, and he may be correct, but he also has yet to prove that he is actually capable of the latter.
- afarrell 5y ago
  Elon’s job isn’t to make sure that the cars actually have brake pads. Elon’s job is to ensure he’s hiring leaders who won’t repeatedly use racial slurs for the people whose jobs are to make sure the cars actually have brake pads. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58807212 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58807212
  - HWR_14 5y ago
    It's also Elon's job to make sure that cars have break pads. He is supposed to do that by delegating, but it's definitely his job.
- ericbarrett 5y ago
  Dealers usually have to prep a new car on the lot—a quick inspection of lights, brakes, steering, leaks; aligning the headlights; stuff like that. I'd argue the dealership model is relevant here.
  - jolux 5y ago
    Yes but there’s no reason it has to be a dealership doing that. The manufacturer could do that before they deliver the car. The manufacturer could run the dealership themselves. There’s not a ton of great reasons to preserve this institution in law.
    - badlucklottery 5y ago
      >The manufacturer could do that before they deliver the car. Cars do get jacked up in transit. Like "a large piece of metal road debris pierced the window and seat" bad (personal experience). So, even if it leaves the factory in pristine condition, someone at the end of the line will need to look at it to make sure it's 100%. Tesla has decided that final check responsibility falls on the end user. Also I suspect it's more efficient for the manufacturer and dealerships to just roll all of that into the end-of-the-line inspection instead of splitting it over two locations. >The manufacturer could run the dealership themselves. This would work if there was a way for states to ensure the manufacturers had some serious skin in the game so they'd fear legal action.
idop 5y ago
Cutting corners is how these so called "tech companies" disrupt markets. They remove all the bloat; the bloat being safeguards and processes created through years of experience and evolution. And we flock to them, praising them for "showing the traditional companies how it's done". But sooner or later the cracks start to form. The random driver picking you up from that app turns out to be a rapist. That house you found at that other app turns out to be falling apart and you die. That shiny new car turns out to have had zero quality control and is dangerous to drive. So they have to make changes. They have to introduce the same safeguards that have been standard in their respective industries for decades. They have to raise prices. And before you know it, the only thing that separates them from the traditional companies is that stupid app.
- chx 5y ago
  Well yes and no. The app is not always stupid. I can't say I am fond of Uber and its business practices but in Vancouver at least the taxi apps are lacking some vital features Uber have -- despite Uber operating briefly in Vancouver in 2012 so it was clear they will be back and indeed in 2020 Uber/Lyft indeed started. Features include easy changing of pickup point which is quite important in the warren of one way streets where I live -- as I see where the car is approaching from, I can easily walk like 1-2 minutes to the next corner to save like five minutes (seriously) of driving around after pickup. Also it works with GPS coordinates -- when I meet with friends it's often at a beach on the weekend and public transit is a bit lacking so I prefer calling a cab/uber and it's practically impossible with cabs because those want a street address, even the app. And then there's the ability to safely communicate with the driver -- and this only needs wifi which makes airport pickups so much easier because I only need airport wifi. Taxi companies couldn't build these features in eight years. Pound sand.
  - idop 5y ago
    That's true, the apps are sometimes good and they do make certain things easier and more accessible than traditional solutions. I know I didn't mention it explicitly, but the "stupid app" was actually me venting my anger over the rampant, unnecessary tracking and snooping that these apps do.
deleted 5y ago
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oxplot 5y ago
tempestn 5y ago
That quality control sticker could have been for the assembly of the caliper itself rather than the final installation of the brakes to the vehicle, which is when the pads would go in. Still obviously utterly inexcusable QA though. (Not to mention it takes them weeks to simply procure a new rotor, caliper and pads, which as the article mentions they need for every new car they build!)
deleted 5y ago
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mxschumacher 5y ago
what I don't understand is how even high profile tech people don't seem to be able to see through these lies. Reading the Wikipedia article "Criticism of Tesla, Inc." [0] is openly shocking (accounting fraud, insider trading, pressuring whistleblowers, endless lies and missed predictions among many others). Just today another crazy investigative article was published in the Wall Street Journal [1]. Sam Altman and others rally to defend Tesla [2]. Elon Musk is lionized and can do no harm. Criticizing Musk is like criticizing technology itself - a blasphemous act; the believers are undeterred. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla,_Inc. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29947890 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29947890 [2] https://twitter.com/sama/status/1130913917864034304 https://twitter.com/sama/status/1130913917864034304
- bhauer 5y ago
  > Elon Musk is lionized and can do no harm. Criticizing Musk is like criticizing technology itself - a blasphemous act; the believers are undeterred. You must be delusional. Look at this thread, or any thread reporting on Tesla problems on Hacker News or Reddit's car forums. More than 95% of comments are critical of Tesla, many nearly hysterical in their criticism. Any defense, or even doubt of the overwhelmingly negative narrative, is met with accusations of being a "fanboy." Yes, there are forums that are vehemently pro-Tesla, but you're not on one right now. Stop pretending that you're in an area where "Elon Musk can do no harm."
  - mxschumacher 5y ago
    on Twitter, Seeking Alpha, Youtube and the vast majority of traditional media reporting and in analyst reports of the large banks, I see overwhelming praise and support for Musk. It helps to weigh by views/clicks, I like Hacker News but assume that it's quite small in the greater scheme of publication platforms. The CNBC Cybertruck video has 32m+ hits, I invite you to go through the comment section [0] The stock price also tells a story about what most people think. I do concede that the tone has shifted recently, but I still don't feel that the full picture of Musk's deeds are known to most people. In my perception, he has achieved a religious status [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ZuKkbHdqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ZuKkbHdqM
avereveard 5y ago
"let's buid car in a tent to meet quotas" - and people lauded that.
rasz 5y ago
>I cannot imagine Honda or Toyota shipping a car without a brake pad. I can't imagine Ford or GM doing it either. oh please, someone already linked GM forgetting pads on 4000 cars. There was also this gem in 1972: https://www.nytimes.com/1972/01/23/archives/young-workers-disrupt-key-gm-plant-young-workers-disrupt-plant-on.html https://www.nytimes.com/1972/01/23/archives/young-workers-di... "sabotage, such as breaking windshields, breaking off rear‐view mirrors, slashing upholstery, bending signal levers, putting washers in carburetors and breaking off ignition keys." Tesla Fremont facility saw its own wave of workers sabotaging own products back when it was called NUUMI https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ It was the reason behind GM decision to close it.
- trog 5y ago
  It occurs to me that 1972 is now 50 years ago
  - nexuist 5y ago
    Yes, am a Tesla owner, this incident is inexcusable and the fact that it happened 50 years ago (or even 10 years ago in the case of the Sonic incident) does not matter. This is a 2022 model! None of this should have happened!
  - userbinator 5y ago
    My daily driver is that old. It was also built by GM. In the last four weeks a lot that holds about 2,000 cars has often been filled with Vegas that had to be taken back into the plant for repair work before they could be shipped to dealers. That sentence from the article alone demonstrates the huge difference between that and Tesla's response. GM actually cared about these problems and tried to fix them, instead of just letting faulty products reach customers and attempting to deny responsibility. It also wasn't "GM forgetting pads on 4000 cars". They acted on one report, recalled ~4000, and only ~20-30 were actually affected: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29951540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29951540
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
zionic 5y ago
My parents bought a brand new BMW X5 once. One of the back doors wouldn’t open and they didn’t find out until they got home. Somehow the car was built, shipped, etc and no BMW employee ever tried to open all 4 doors. BMW had to replace the entire door. Of course, stories like that never hit the front page of hackernews.
- josefx 5y ago
  Did BMW tell your parents that the door not opening was normal and expected behavior?
  - macinjosh 5y ago
    This is just a lie. The Tesla rep said it sounded normal but that they would confirm so when the vehicle was brought in for the appointment. They never said a missing brake pad was normal and expected.
    - JaimeThompson 5y ago
      Except it isn't factually correct to say that a grinding sound is normal. Either the rep wasn't honest, made a call they should not have, or isn't trained correctly.
      - macinjosh 5y ago
        Or the crappy audio from the smartphone video didn’t portray the sound well and isn’t a good tool for diagnosing vehicle issues.
        tekknik 5y ago
        no, it’s quite clear from the audio that there’s metal on metal contact. even with metallic brake pads they don’t sound like this.
      - schmidp 5y ago
throwaway81523 5y ago
I'm also bothered by the unavailability of a replacement brake pad. Why are brake pads not interchangeable between cars anyway? I understand there are different sizes and stuff, but a few standard types like there are for tires, windshield wiper blades, and other consumables should be enough. Tesla looks pretty stupid in this story.
- userbinator 5y ago
  Tesla is known for its NIH syndrome, but I think the reason for better parts availability with other brands is also because they have far more models and an appreciation for working at that scale, so tend to use no bespoke parts unless absolutely necessary. I agree that these well-known wear parts parts should be standardised. There's no need for each model of car to have slightly different brake pads. There are also entire companies like Bendix which specialise in braking systems (and may be most known for the vacuum boosters for a ton of vehicles). (I made the same comment here but got downvoted too. Maybe by some designer who thinks they need to be "unique".)
vba616 5y ago
>I can't imagine Ford or GM doing it either. I think this is a great example of how generalizations based on guesses are almost always wrong. If you want to guess and be right, question generalizations. "GM is recalling 4,296 U.S.-market Chevy Sonic models—all assembled at the automaker’s Orion Township, Michigan plant, for a possible assembly issue that leaves the subcompact lacking either an inner or outer front disc brake pad." https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1071185_missing-brake-pads-prompt-gm-to-recall-2012-chevy-sonic-models https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1071185_missing-brake-... I did not do a comprehensive search, so it would be unwise to assume this only ever happened to GM, too.
schmidp 5y ago
Well, a few of my friends worked at Mercedes plants during summer time. Also on stations doing brakes. From the stories they tell, at least in Germany, I can absolutely imagine cars being delivered like that as well. I had a small accident with a Range Rover some years ago that made the side airbag in the driver seat go off. I had it repaired at an official Land Rover dealer. When I got it back I only noticed at home that the seat leather is not well in place so I removed it to adjust it. To my surprise i find the new Airbag held ok pace with with multiple rounds of strong duct tape. So far I trust Tesla more than the legacy automakers.
dekhn 5y ago
the model Y had a spate of qc problems a while ago and it's still recommended that you do an extensive inspection before accepting delivery. I thought it was really funny that I'd have to drive over to Fremont and spend a couple hours inspecting a car for major problems like that (and cancelled my order). Instead, I went to a Toyota dealership, bought a car on the spot, and will drive it, without quality problems, for at least a decade if I want to.

by Syonyk 5y ago

jahewson 5y ago

> Not that I worry about them forgetting to put pieces in, either. Google suggests that you should: https://www.google.com/search?q=missing+brake+pad+recall https://www.google.com/search?q=missing+brake+pad+recall

AnthonyMouse 5y ago
- kristjansson 5y ago
  I’ll await Teslas recall of all units possibly affected by this issue
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    Goalposts wherever you like. Is there even any evidence that there are any other units affected by this issue?
    - bch 5y ago
      > Is there even any evidence that there are any other units affected by this issue? If their QC is that broken, aren’t the cars that passed through it suspect? Edit: within a proper timeframe window.
    - kristjansson 5y ago
      One instance is evidence their process failed at least once. At a minimum they need to identify the process failure and the cars the could have been affected, and issue a recall or TSB to verify none of those cars are missing brake pads.
- joezydeco 5y ago
  https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna54596 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna54596 "General Motors knew about a defect in its ignition switches eight years ago and changed the design of an internal part, but never told federal regulators or the drivers of its cars, according to evidence from a recent lawsuit filed by the parents of a Georgia woman who died in a 2010 GM car crash"
  - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
    It's not that nobody writes the story, it's that nobody sees the story.
    - jolux 5y ago
      Nah this was all over the news. I heard about it. Everyone I know heard about it, especially if they're into cars. See also Toyota's infamous sticky accelerator recall, or the Takata airbag recall. The difference is that Tesla didn't have a near-perfect history of shipping reliable vehicles for decades before screwing up like this the way Toyota did. Tesla's reputation is slowly being formed by failures such as these. I already know several people who have elected to get a Mach-E instead of a Tesla because of concerns about quality. If they don't improve they're going to be seen (rather aptly) like the Lotus of electric cars in a few years: beautiful, powerful shitboxes that nobody wants to have to rely on as a daily driver.
    - specto 5y ago
      Who's fault is that? It's still news....
    - ra7 5y ago
      So the car company with the most hype attracts the most attention? I don't see what the issue is.
      - AnthonyMouse 5y ago
        First line of GM recall story (https://www.motortrend.com/news/whoops-2012-chevrolet-sonics-recalled-for-possible-missing-front-brake-pads-152143/ https://www.motortrend.com/news/whoops-2012-chevrolet-sonics...): > General Motors is recalling some 4300 units of its 2012 Chevrolet Sonic after finding that some of the Sonics were missing front brake pads. First line of this story: > Tesla is oftentimes accused of presenting a shiny veneer to the public and its shareholders, only to show its ugly side to employees and customers. The GM story is dry, factual. There's no indignation. It's less than a quarter of the length of the Tesla story. Nobody's going to get worked up and spread it around social media. That's not just about who the companies are, it's about how the media reports the stories.
- darksaints 5y ago
  You were just linked to a google search full of press reports about a missing brake pad recall, and the entire front page was results about GM, and your response is that the press is silent as long as it's not Tesla? Seriously?
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Especially because Tesla is considered some new popular tech company, the media is focusing on them a lot more compared to traditional automakers. There are hundreds of recalls a year[0], and yes, there are articles on most of them, but it's all in an attempt to capture SEO for 'recalls for <year make model>' and thus low-visibility; but any time the 'Apple of Cars' issues a recall, it turns into a reuters article and thus 10 other publications publish a story on it, where it continues to spread like wildfire. All recalls are warranted, even when done voluntarily for small manufacturing issues, but you can't deny that articles about Teslas having issues are guaranteed to generate more clicks and thus more ad revenue than one about some years-old Ford or GM vehicle. 0: https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/2020_nhtsa_recall_annual_report_021021-tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/documents/2020_n...
    - otterley 5y ago
      If Elon Musk wasn’t such an asshole, he probably wouldn’t attract extra attention in the first place. (Yet note that there is no quantitative evidence presented here that Tesla gets more attention than other manufacturers when defects arise.) People often make their own problems by making outrageous claims in the first place.
      - judge2020 5y ago
        It at least gets more attention from the tech crowd. https://hn.algolia.com/?q=recall https://hn.algolia.com/?q=recall The only car recalls with more points on HN than the Tesla ones are Hyundai (regarding South Korea being soft on them; the issue was already a recall in the US) and the VW emissions scandal.
  - 5y ago
- 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
  This seems like one of those things where a tech guy thinks he can just come in and "disrupt things" and mistakes are made because they never bothered to look at what the incumbents were doing and why. The thing you are missing is also the frequency of mistakes, consistency in the vehicles in general, how well they manage the problem to fix it, and the number of defects relative to vehicles on the road. This entire article sounds like Google or Amazon level Don't-Give-A-Shit about the customer applied to cars. And some of their mistakes are mind boggling: https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-roof-flies-off-convertible-quality-issue https://www.theverge.com/2020/10/5/21502379/tesla-modely-roo... https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-owner-details-quality-control-issues-remains-supporter-2021-9 https://www.businessinsider.com.au/tesla-owner-details-quali... "The main issue they have is a lack of consistency,” Nelson said. “I could have rejected the delivery for not meeting my own quality standards, but a new car could take weeks or even months and I’d just be throwing the dice again. The next car could be in even worse shape." Thanks for getting the ball rolling Tesla, but I'll be waiting for the Japanese to perfect it before going electric.
  - halfmatthalfcat 5y ago
    Electric is a paradigm shift. What makes you think ICE manufacturers will ever be able to catch Tesla?
    - Aloha 5y ago
      Is it? Economy of scale would seem to win the day in the end. Building an electric car is not fundamentally different than building an ICE one. Changing the drivetrain does not change the rest of the vehicle that much, other than packaging, and thats pretty easy to figure out, any competent manufacturing engineer can do it.
    - 2muchcoffeeman 5y ago
      What makes you think Tesla can resolve all their problems and produce a car everyone wants to buy at the right price point before everyone else has time to implement their responses? There are plenty of drivers like myself that specifically buy reliable vehicles, 2nd hand. Tesla can’t even match the reliability of my current car that cost less than 1/4 of the cheapest new Tesla. The incumbents have plenty of run way. It remains to be seen what happens.
userbinator 5y ago
That looks like, aside from the few Tesla results, exactly one model of Chevy was affected, and they decided to recall them. A missing brake pad is pretty damn obvious, and I'm almost willing to bet that, unlike Tesla, they didn't ignore or make excuses to the people who complained about the strange sound. This "assume the user is completely stupid and we're always right" mentality seems to entirely come from the tech industry.
tomjakubowski 5y ago
https://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/30/2012-chevy-sonic-brake-pad-recall/ https://www.autoblog.com/2011/12/30/2012-chevy-sonic-brake-p... GM received a single report from a mechanic of a missing brake pad on a rental Chevy Sonic. They investigated, found some kind of root cause, and out of precaution recalled ~5000 Sonics manufactured around the same time for inspection. (and estimated 20-30 vehicles were affected - it'd be interesting to see how many turned up) Tesla's response thus far is miles apart. Nothing about it gives me confidence in their QC.
- maxdo 5y ago
  because it's a single incident, there is nothing to recall.
  - throwaway81523 5y ago
    So why can't they install the brake pad without keeping the car for close to a month? They are building model 3s on the assembly line right now right? They have brake pads in the factory? Pull one out of there and put it in this messed up car. If that means delaying assembly of an in-manufacturing model 3 til there are more brake pads, then so be it. You need to have enough brake pads to equip all your cars, especially the cars that you have already shipped.
    - sokoloff 5y ago
      It is quite likely that the caliper will need to be replaced. The hydraulic pressure that would normally activate the brakes has likely pushed the piston out, possibly making contact with the rotor under pressure (or making the seals suspect, having allowed them to travel beyond their design range). That’s the “worrying scraping sound” the owner reported. Your point about “they must have the parts in the country” is a valid one, but it’s probably not going to be just a forgotten pad that they’ll need to slap in there. As a shade tree mechanic, if I’d somehow put my car back on the road without a brake pad, I’d do more than that. I doubt Tesla’s going to think differently with liability on the line.

Tade0 5y ago

> I can't imagine getting this treatment with a legacy automaker. I can. My friend drives a 2016 VW Touareg which he got used - I was present during the purchase and the previous owner told us that the coolant needs to be topped off from time to time - nothing big, but he said that the authorized service center shrugged this off as something they won't bother fixing.

Syonyk 5y ago
How much, and how far apart? There's a difference between "half a cup or so ever few months" and "I have to carry coolant around with me." The reserve tank will comfortably make up the first in any reasonable driving situation, the second is a problem. Water pumps not weeping a tiny bit is a rather new innovation in cars. They typically use coolant to lubricate the seal, and some will get through.
- Tade0 5y ago
  > How much, and how far apart? About a litre every 4-7k km. Was like that from the start according to the previous owner. I found it unusual, because I never had to think about such things in any of my cars, including my old 2000 Corolla.
- KennyBlanken 5y ago
  I don't know of a single car made in the last 10 years where it's normal to lose "half a cup over every few months." Every car I or my family have owned in the last thirty years has never needed coolant added to it over years of ownership. Water pumps "weeping" coolant is a sign of failed seal, not by design. The GP commenter's buddy was sold a car by someone who was trying to pass off a needed repair; likely a leaking radiator or failing head gasket if they were unlucky. If they were lucky: a bad radiator cap or a failing coolant system hose. If they were really, really unlucky: a failing heater core.
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    Very very much so. Or poor or plastic welds on the coolant manifolds, as plagued my Jaguar, whose coolant system shit the bed catastrophically several times, and even with a factory tech replacing as much as he could with heavier duty aftermarket parts, was only reduced to "needs a top-up every couple of months"

tessierashpool 5y ago

yeah, this is within Tesla's normal QC parameters. they've had roofs fall off, they've had cars catch fire while parked, they even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in the middle of the night with nobody in it. just goofy bullshit. the discussion in this thread will end up on Elon sooner or later, but the thing to realize is that Tesla the company needs it that way. electric vehicles will definitely replace the ICE, but Tesla's not going to be Google when that happens. it'll be Alta Vista or even Minitel. buying one of these cars is just a much bigger QC gamble than it shoild be.

solarkraft 5y ago
Actually the Google comparison fits quite well. They also frequently deliver sub-par software while still having an over-all hard to beat ecosystem.
ajross 5y ago
> they even had a car which caught fire while self-driving in the middle of the night with nobody in it. You realize that turned out to be a stunt, right? The car was a brand new plaid owned by a hedge fund manager who turned out to be heavily short TSLA. It was seized by his lawyers and never inspected for what the fault might have been. And the "driving itself on fire" story changed several times over the first 24 hours. One of the weirdest things about buying one of these things and suddenly finding myself in the culture/counterculture war over the brand is how suspect so much of the coverage is.
- FireBeyond 5y ago
  Most of the coverage is from Whole Mars. So if you're going to call out some hedge fund manager as being "short Tesla", with the implication of ulterior motives, then it's equally worth mentioning that Whole Mars is extremely bearish, unapologetically very pro-Tesla cheerleading, too.
  - ajross 5y ago
    Here's some post-hoc coverage of the controversy: https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/04/more-details-about-tesla-model-s-plaid-fire-lead-to-more-questions/ https://cleantechnica.com/2021/07/04/more-details-about-tesl... Make your own decisions. But (especially since it happened just weeks after the refreshed S's started shipping and that we haven't heard squat in the six months since) that just smells off to me. Certainly it wasn't "driving itself around on fire", no further report on the fire exists (contra the Texas crash where the NTSB had lots of interesting things to say) and all the actual witnesses went silent (we don't even have confirmation of who was driving!)... Just be realistic. It's almost certainly a setup. Something very similar happened when FSD beta was released. Not two weeks in the NHTSA had a weird-sounding report leaked to the media claiming behavior (that the steering couldn't be overpowered) that the hardware can't produce. Then the next release, we all had an annoying waiver where we had to allow Tesla to save and upload non-anonymized data for any safety-related incidents. And... no more weird reports! This company just drives people completely bananas, and I genuinely don't know why. The actual cars are fantastic.

foepys 5y ago

The only reason why Tesla hates dealerships is because they don't want to pay them, full stop. All those horrors can also happen without dealerships, see above. Tesla wants people to pay the sticker price without being able to haggle and wants to keep all the profits for itself. VW can deliver EVs for a similar price even with a dealership network. Although, they also started to block haggling by demanding customers to place their orders online via their car configurator. As long as you sell it as innovation, people will jump on it, even if this innovation is costing them more money.

fallingknife 5y ago
You think haggling is going to come out in your favor? The dealership does it every day.
- foepys 5y ago
  If that's the case, why should auto makers now demand you pay sticker price? Public companies don't do anything in your favor, ever. It's always because they think that they can now extract even more money from you.
- VBprogrammer 5y ago
  At the moment it's hard enough to get hold of a car even if you walk in with the money to pay for it. As such, haggling is unlikely to work. At other times when the dealers are desperate to make a specific quota a good deal is more likely.
- bityard 5y ago
  People who pay the dealerships asking price on a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.
  - blitzar 5y ago
    People who pay for a new car are paying at least a couple thousand more than they have to.
5y ago

warning26 5y ago

I agree that this is emblematic of Tesla's terrible QC, but your second point about how traditional auto dealerships would mitigate it strikes me as questionable. Being sold a "lemon" has been possible for years, even with the traditional dealership model; that's why so many US states have "lemon laws" specifically to deal with that scenario.

serf 5y ago
I did pre-delivery inspections on vehicles for many years at an automotive dealership. one of the numerous things I had to do was test drive every single vehicle. Yes a dealership would have caught this issue before the customer -- absolutely.
jacquesm 5y ago
Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to intermittent issues, not a missing part in a safety critical system that should have resulted in a 'stop the line, we have an excess brake pad at the end of our shift', followed by an inspection of all vehicles built on that shift and a serious upgrade of QA processes. Really, this stinks.
- ajross 5y ago
  > Yes, but a lemon is a car that is unreliable due to intermittent issues Actually it's a term of some precision, and that's not it. "Lemon" laws define the problem as a car with an inherent defect that can't be fixed by the manufacturer or dealer within some reasonable amount of time (often "three attempts", depending on statute). The purpose of the law is that consumers shouldn't be on the hook for expensive but faulty products. This isn't a lemon by any of those laws. They fixed the brakes and the car is fine now. It's fine to make pronouncements about Quality Culture or whatever, but lemon statutes aren't really at issue here.
  - pdonis 5y ago
    > They fixed the brakes and the car is fine now. Did they? The latest status I get from the article is that the ETA was pushed back again to January 19.

Andys 5y ago

As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. The throwaway effect can an does happen to any ICE vehicle easily, when the engine is not economic to repair. We should have laws covering all types and brands of vehicles to make them more repairable, but ultimately this should be easier with electric (recycling batteries in bulk is cheaper than mining more lithium)

kevin_thibedeau 5y ago
An ICE vehicle can last 15+ years. Even more in a benign environment. Tesla doesn't make anything that will last that long.
- MisterBastahrd 5y ago
  That's why the auto industry is anticipating that leasing will eventually be the standard model. Nobody is going to want to pay half a new car's price just to have a new battery installed.
DenseComet 5y ago
Isn't that a function of being an EV rather than an ICE? I'd expect an EV from any of the traditional automakers to also require comparatively little maintenance.
Syonyk 5y ago
> As a counterpoint to "throwaway cars", when they don't need repairs they do seem to be able to do a million miles or more with comparitively little maintenance. It was a reference to an old post of mine (https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwaway-cars/ https://www.sevarg.net/2016/03/05/is-tesla-building-throwawa...) - and, I actually agree with you that they do have million-mile grade drivetrains. It's just that the rest of the car is poor quality. That's fine if it's cheap and easy to fix, but it's not. You can't get the parts, you can't install the parts if you can get them because they have to be paired with the car, and, in general, they're like a lot of modern ICEs that fall apart around a running drivetrain. Except worse, because they're luxury cars and you can't even do the repair work yourself.

jolux 5y ago

It's not about the dealership model, it's about taking quality seriously and not just slapping things together and pushing them out the door with minimal QC like a software startup in a tight market. It's clear by now that Elon thinks it's more important to ship more cars than to ship quality cars, and he may be correct, but he also has yet to prove that he is actually capable of the latter.

afarrell 5y ago
Elon’s job isn’t to make sure that the cars actually have brake pads. Elon’s job is to ensure he’s hiring leaders who won’t repeatedly use racial slurs for the people whose jobs are to make sure the cars actually have brake pads. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58807212 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-58807212
- HWR_14 5y ago
  It's also Elon's job to make sure that cars have break pads. He is supposed to do that by delegating, but it's definitely his job.
ericbarrett 5y ago
Dealers usually have to prep a new car on the lot—a quick inspection of lights, brakes, steering, leaks; aligning the headlights; stuff like that. I'd argue the dealership model is relevant here.
- jolux 5y ago
  Yes but there’s no reason it has to be a dealership doing that. The manufacturer could do that before they deliver the car. The manufacturer could run the dealership themselves. There’s not a ton of great reasons to preserve this institution in law.
  - badlucklottery 5y ago
    >The manufacturer could do that before they deliver the car. Cars do get jacked up in transit. Like "a large piece of metal road debris pierced the window and seat" bad (personal experience). So, even if it leaves the factory in pristine condition, someone at the end of the line will need to look at it to make sure it's 100%. Tesla has decided that final check responsibility falls on the end user. Also I suspect it's more efficient for the manufacturer and dealerships to just roll all of that into the end-of-the-line inspection instead of splitting it over two locations. >The manufacturer could run the dealership themselves. This would work if there was a way for states to ensure the manufacturers had some serious skin in the game so they'd fear legal action.

idop 5y ago

Cutting corners is how these so called "tech companies" disrupt markets. They remove all the bloat; the bloat being safeguards and processes created through years of experience and evolution. And we flock to them, praising them for "showing the traditional companies how it's done". But sooner or later the cracks start to form. The random driver picking you up from that app turns out to be a rapist. That house you found at that other app turns out to be falling apart and you die. That shiny new car turns out to have had zero quality control and is dangerous to drive. So they have to make changes. They have to introduce the same safeguards that have been standard in their respective industries for decades. They have to raise prices. And before you know it, the only thing that separates them from the traditional companies is that stupid app.

chx 5y ago
Well yes and no. The app is not always stupid. I can't say I am fond of Uber and its business practices but in Vancouver at least the taxi apps are lacking some vital features Uber have -- despite Uber operating briefly in Vancouver in 2012 so it was clear they will be back and indeed in 2020 Uber/Lyft indeed started. Features include easy changing of pickup point which is quite important in the warren of one way streets where I live -- as I see where the car is approaching from, I can easily walk like 1-2 minutes to the next corner to save like five minutes (seriously) of driving around after pickup. Also it works with GPS coordinates -- when I meet with friends it's often at a beach on the weekend and public transit is a bit lacking so I prefer calling a cab/uber and it's practically impossible with cabs because those want a street address, even the app. And then there's the ability to safely communicate with the driver -- and this only needs wifi which makes airport pickups so much easier because I only need airport wifi. Taxi companies couldn't build these features in eight years. Pound sand.
- idop 5y ago
  That's true, the apps are sometimes good and they do make certain things easier and more accessible than traditional solutions. I know I didn't mention it explicitly, but the "stupid app" was actually me venting my anger over the rampant, unnecessary tracking and snooping that these apps do.

deleted 5y ago

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oxplot 5y ago

tempestn 5y ago

That quality control sticker could have been for the assembly of the caliper itself rather than the final installation of the brakes to the vehicle, which is when the pads would go in. Still obviously utterly inexcusable QA though. (Not to mention it takes them weeks to simply procure a new rotor, caliper and pads, which as the article mentions they need for every new car they build!)

deleted 5y ago

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mxschumacher 5y ago

what I don't understand is how even high profile tech people don't seem to be able to see through these lies. Reading the Wikipedia article "Criticism of Tesla, Inc." [0] is openly shocking (accounting fraud, insider trading, pressuring whistleblowers, endless lies and missed predictions among many others). Just today another crazy investigative article was published in the Wall Street Journal [1]. Sam Altman and others rally to defend Tesla [2]. Elon Musk is lionized and can do no harm. Criticizing Musk is like criticizing technology itself - a blasphemous act; the believers are undeterred. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Tesla,_Inc. [1] https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29947890 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29947890 [2] https://twitter.com/sama/status/1130913917864034304 https://twitter.com/sama/status/1130913917864034304

bhauer 5y ago
> Elon Musk is lionized and can do no harm. Criticizing Musk is like criticizing technology itself - a blasphemous act; the believers are undeterred. You must be delusional. Look at this thread, or any thread reporting on Tesla problems on Hacker News or Reddit's car forums. More than 95% of comments are critical of Tesla, many nearly hysterical in their criticism. Any defense, or even doubt of the overwhelmingly negative narrative, is met with accusations of being a "fanboy." Yes, there are forums that are vehemently pro-Tesla, but you're not on one right now. Stop pretending that you're in an area where "Elon Musk can do no harm."
- mxschumacher 5y ago
  on Twitter, Seeking Alpha, Youtube and the vast majority of traditional media reporting and in analyst reports of the large banks, I see overwhelming praise and support for Musk. It helps to weigh by views/clicks, I like Hacker News but assume that it's quite small in the greater scheme of publication platforms. The CNBC Cybertruck video has 32m+ hits, I invite you to go through the comment section [0] The stock price also tells a story about what most people think. I do concede that the tone has shifted recently, but I still don't feel that the full picture of Musk's deeds are known to most people. In my perception, he has achieved a religious status [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ZuKkbHdqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=25ZuKkbHdqM

avereveard 5y ago

"let's buid car in a tent to meet quotas" - and people lauded that.

rasz 5y ago

>I cannot imagine Honda or Toyota shipping a car without a brake pad. I can't imagine Ford or GM doing it either. oh please, someone already linked GM forgetting pads on 4000 cars. There was also this gem in 1972: https://www.nytimes.com/1972/01/23/archives/young-workers-disrupt-key-gm-plant-young-workers-disrupt-plant-on.html https://www.nytimes.com/1972/01/23/archives/young-workers-di... "sabotage, such as breaking windshields, breaking off rear‐view mirrors, slashing upholstery, bending signal levers, putting washers in carburetors and breaking off ignition keys." Tesla Fremont facility saw its own wave of workers sabotaging own products back when it was called NUUMI https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ https://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/a5514/4350856/ It was the reason behind GM decision to close it.

trog 5y ago
It occurs to me that 1972 is now 50 years ago
- nexuist 5y ago
  Yes, am a Tesla owner, this incident is inexcusable and the fact that it happened 50 years ago (or even 10 years ago in the case of the Sonic incident) does not matter. This is a 2022 model! None of this should have happened!
- userbinator 5y ago
  My daily driver is that old. It was also built by GM. In the last four weeks a lot that holds about 2,000 cars has often been filled with Vegas that had to be taken back into the plant for repair work before they could be shipped to dealers. That sentence from the article alone demonstrates the huge difference between that and Tesla's response. GM actually cared about these problems and tried to fix them, instead of just letting faulty products reach customers and attempting to deny responsibility. It also wasn't "GM forgetting pads on 4000 cars". They acted on one report, recalled ~4000, and only ~20-30 were actually affected: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29951540 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29951540
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

zionic 5y ago

My parents bought a brand new BMW X5 once. One of the back doors wouldn’t open and they didn’t find out until they got home. Somehow the car was built, shipped, etc and no BMW employee ever tried to open all 4 doors. BMW had to replace the entire door. Of course, stories like that never hit the front page of hackernews.

josefx 5y ago
Did BMW tell your parents that the door not opening was normal and expected behavior?
- macinjosh 5y ago
  This is just a lie. The Tesla rep said it sounded normal but that they would confirm so when the vehicle was brought in for the appointment. They never said a missing brake pad was normal and expected.
  - JaimeThompson 5y ago
    Except it isn't factually correct to say that a grinding sound is normal. Either the rep wasn't honest, made a call they should not have, or isn't trained correctly.
    - macinjosh 5y ago
      Or the crappy audio from the smartphone video didn’t portray the sound well and isn’t a good tool for diagnosing vehicle issues.
      - tekknik 5y ago
        no, it’s quite clear from the audio that there’s metal on metal contact. even with metallic brake pads they don’t sound like this.
    - schmidp 5y ago

throwaway81523 5y ago

I'm also bothered by the unavailability of a replacement brake pad. Why are brake pads not interchangeable between cars anyway? I understand there are different sizes and stuff, but a few standard types like there are for tires, windshield wiper blades, and other consumables should be enough. Tesla looks pretty stupid in this story.

userbinator 5y ago
Tesla is known for its NIH syndrome, but I think the reason for better parts availability with other brands is also because they have far more models and an appreciation for working at that scale, so tend to use no bespoke parts unless absolutely necessary. I agree that these well-known wear parts parts should be standardised. There's no need for each model of car to have slightly different brake pads. There are also entire companies like Bendix which specialise in braking systems (and may be most known for the vacuum boosters for a ton of vehicles). (I made the same comment here but got downvoted too. Maybe by some designer who thinks they need to be "unique".)

vba616 5y ago

>I can't imagine Ford or GM doing it either. I think this is a great example of how generalizations based on guesses are almost always wrong. If you want to guess and be right, question generalizations. "GM is recalling 4,296 U.S.-market Chevy Sonic models—all assembled at the automaker’s Orion Township, Michigan plant, for a possible assembly issue that leaves the subcompact lacking either an inner or outer front disc brake pad." https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1071185_missing-brake-pads-prompt-gm-to-recall-2012-chevy-sonic-models https://www.thecarconnection.com/news/1071185_missing-brake-... I did not do a comprehensive search, so it would be unwise to assume this only ever happened to GM, too.

schmidp 5y ago

Well, a few of my friends worked at Mercedes plants during summer time. Also on stations doing brakes. From the stories they tell, at least in Germany, I can absolutely imagine cars being delivered like that as well. I had a small accident with a Range Rover some years ago that made the side airbag in the driver seat go off. I had it repaired at an official Land Rover dealer. When I got it back I only noticed at home that the seat leather is not well in place so I removed it to adjust it. To my surprise i find the new Airbag held ok pace with with multiple rounds of strong duct tape. So far I trust Tesla more than the legacy automakers.

dekhn 5y ago

the model Y had a spate of qc problems a while ago and it's still recommended that you do an extensive inspection before accepting delivery. I thought it was really funny that I'd have to drive over to Fremont and spend a couple hours inspecting a car for major problems like that (and cancelled my order). Instead, I went to a Toyota dealership, bought a car on the spot, and will drive it, without quality problems, for at least a decade if I want to.