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I'll be departing my job at the end of the month. I had too many roles, affecting too many pieces of engineering, and my title didn't reflect my work. I needed

by daenz 5y ago

I'll be departing my job at the end of the month. I had too many roles, affecting too many pieces of engineering, and my title didn't reflect my work. I needed to go down to a 4 day work week and have my title reflect my roles, but my manager attempted to call my bluff and essentially said it's not going to happen. I hinted about what my decision would have to be if these accomodations couldn't be made, but he didn't budge. When I gave my verbal notice, suddenly there was immediate backpedaling and said maybe something could be worked out. I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken.

deagle50 5y ago
Re "trust is broken" - I used to think like this and I understand, but I would encourage you to try a more nuanced POV. There's a decent chance your manager was simply not allowed to accommodate you, and your verbal notice unlocked options from upper management.
- mjburgess 5y ago
  A good human being would say, "i'm not allowed to say this but...". Which good managers will do. You're on the path to leaving anyway.
  - deagle50 5y ago
    If that got out, said manager may be marked by the bosses for opening Pandora's box. When people have dependents and mortgages on the line, "good" has very little to do with it. Sad but true.
    - citizenpaul 5y ago
      A good manager would still make clear that their hands are tied and this is all they can offer at this time. They will have to check with upper mgmt for any further options depending on the response to their current offer. There are a million legal/safe ways to say that the negotiation is not over just keep pushing. It could also hint that the manager thought the commenter was one of those social cripples that cannot handle negotiations professionally but it doesn't sound to be the case.
      - WJW 5y ago
        Out of the million safe ways to say the negotiation is not over, quite a lot are so obscure that most employees would not even pick up on the subleties. (And if we're honest, we all know coworkers who wouldn't get that hint even if the manager outright told them their hands were tied at this point in the negotiation)
    - Godel_unicode 5y ago
      Without blaming the manager for the decisions of those above them, surely you have to see that this strengthens the argument that you shouldn't trust this person?
      - deagle50 5y ago
        Maybe - I'm mainly making the point for future situations where it may make sense to stay if you don't adopt a binary trust mentality (which upper management probably does not have).
- kodah 5y ago
  All that means is that the problem isn't managers but upper management micromanaging IC benefits.
- laserlight 5y ago
  > There's a decent chance your manager was simply not allowed to accommodate you A trusted party wouldn’t hesitate to explain the situation.
AlwaysRock 5y ago
I was playing a board game with my 7-year-old niece recently. She negotiates the same way most companies do. She holds the line firmly until her bluff is called, and then backtracks quickly once it's too late. The biggest différance is my 7-year-old will learn, while companies will continue to make the same mistakes.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  I highly support playing negotiation and/or lying+consequence board games with children. The skills are lifelong, and the stakes are much lower than when they have to exercise them in the real world. Coup [0] and Love Letter [1] are both easy entry and quick play examples. Also, I got in the habit of making my kids negotiate their own payment for household tasks. With agreement based on the skill with which they do so. ;) [0] https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/131357/coup https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/131357/coup [1] https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/129622/love-letter https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/129622/love-letter
  - TehShrike 5y ago
    Cockroach Poker is another good bluffing game that 4-year-olds can play.
    - gwd 5y ago
      That's a good one to play with in-laws who don't speak your language as well. But as much as I enjoy it, I'm not entirely convinced there's any more to it than straight up luck.
  - philsnow 5y ago
    What part of Love Letter has negotiation or lying(+consequences)? In my house it's nearly strictly deduction.
    - ethbr0 5y ago
      Maybe it's because I played Coup first, but the way we play there's continuous talking about what's in ones hand. Which gives it more of a poker flavor.
manuelabeledo 5y ago
> I had too many roles, affecting too many pieces of engineering, and my title didn't reflect my work [...] I hinted about what my decision would have to be if these accomodations couldn't be made, but he didn't budge. My position exactly. I won't be leaving my company, but I will be transitioning to a more defined role in a different department. Didn't sit too well with my current manager. He told me that I couldn't just leave like that. I offered him a 80/20 arrangement, and he didn't like it either. I'll be transitioning anyway. It's just a bit bizarre that a manager would potentially alienate someone who seems to be indispensable for the operation.
- chasd00 5y ago
  > He told me that I couldn't just leave like that. isn't the answer to that question "take it up with HR"? that was very gracious of you to even offer an 80/20 arrangement. Ironically, i bet HR would have a hard time with an 80/20 dual role setup.
  - manuelabeledo 5y ago
    > Ironically, i bet HR would have a hard time with an 80/20 dual role setup. I guess I thought I did my best to avoid burning any bridges, but I was actually bargaining against myself.
  - dvtrn 5y ago
    Generally speaking, what's the general opinion on 80/20'ing your way into a lateral transfer? I've done it a couple times, at best I ended up leaving, at worst, HR never actually recorded the transfer so when time came a few years down the road, it was on my resume, but come employment verification time, I (and the firm that had offered me a position) learned that archived employee records had me listed down under my prior role, not the one I had transferred into-and had since that point, used for experience in leveraging new jobs. I lost a job offer because of it. Now I'm reticent to do any kind of 80/20's without written considerations from the company.
Osiris 5y ago
Employers make the mistake of seeing employees as a cost center instead of as revenue generators. I recently finished a leadership class and the primary focus was on treating employees as people / human. This perspective makes it possible to make decisions that make for happy employees which, in turn, makes for more productive employees. Employers that focus solely on cost are missing the forest for the trees; it's extremely short sighted. I now work for a DAO in which decisions are made by "the community" (those with tokens have voting power). Not having a traditional leadership structure has been so liberating. Everything is fully transparent.
car 5y ago
"People don't leave companies, they leave managers."
- fedorareis 5y ago
  That saying really isn’t true. I know plenty of people that liked their manager but still left companies. There are plenty of reasons people leave companies that have nothing to do with their manager.
  - karmajunkie 5y ago
    i’d say it was at least half true —i’ve definitely left both companies and managers!
    - simonhughes22 5y ago
      I agree.
- yibg 5y ago
  I hear this all the time, but I've actually never left a manager. I've liked all of my managers. It's usually either some external force like a compelling opportunity or something with the org that is beyond my manager's control.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
ftlio 5y ago
Every time I leave a job, there's suddenly the money I was asking for available. If someone was asking for a raise and you couldn't give it to them, and then they turn in their notice, and then there's onus to retain them at their original ask, the only thing to say is "congrats, we definitely regret not making things work for you here".
- hinkley 5y ago
  Some people take "If you don't have time to do something right, you have time to do it over." as a task list.
pictur 5y ago
Is it just the title? Is it a problem that some people don't see you in that title?
kache_ 5y ago
As the old tech bro addage goes: Alpha as fuck
dt3ft 5y ago
Similar thing with me. Starting at a new job in February. Left because the title did not reflect my work. There was not much room for negotiation and I had a scouted offer on the table with better comp and more interesting work.
ryanSrich 5y ago
I don’t get this type of management at all. The leverage is always in the developers/engineers hand. The company has essentially zero leverage when it comes to negotiating pay with highly in-demand employees. The only reality for the business is what they can feasibly pay you, and it’s likely much much more than what you’re getting now. Pretending like they have leverage in this position assumes the engineer is less informed. It doesn’t compute for me. When I hire engineers I give them as close to the top dollar as I can and if that’s not enough there’s nothing else I can do. It’s not fun when they walk, but at least I know there was nothing else I could do.
jollybean 5y ago
While I can understand your sentiment, I don't think you handled that negotiation very well. Playing chicken by drawing hard lines in the sand is not negotiating - they were actually willing to budge, you were not. Again, it's entirely your prerogative, just understand that this is not going to lead to optimal outcomes. Finally, you mentioned something like '4 day work week' - in most situations today, it's completely off the table. If it's common in your company and you fit the policy, then sure, you can ask. But if '4 day work week' is not policy at your company, then what you are really asking if for the company to change it's policy and open it up to everyone. I'm sure you concede that you're not the only one possibly deserving such a flexible opportunity. So your demand extends much broader than just yourself, and the consequences of giving this flex to one person, would mean an immediate negotiation with large numbers of other employees, which can be disruptive. Of course, maybe they should have the policy, but it's definitely reasonable that they don't as well. And finally, this assumes that they didn't have such a policy in place. Consider what would have happened were you to have contemplated a counter offer from the company. There's probably an outcome in there that's pretty good for both sides, an when that happens it's a broader win for everyone.
grog454 5y ago
> I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. Not that it would be likely to happen, but you could also have doubled down. Now you'll need a 3 day work week and an additional 10% pay bump. There is some potential value in keeping emotion and irrelevant sentiment (like "trust") out of the equation.
johnisgood 5y ago
This happens virtually everywhere. I hate it. This is such a common experience with any sort of providers as well. I called up my ISP because the internet speed was worse than what I was paying for. They "fixed" it. So far so good, but there were times when they did not want to do this, they tried to "rationalize" it away using bullshit pseudo-technical sentences thinking that they are talking to someone who knows nothing about computers and networking. Anyways, I told them that I am going to switch to another ISP, and after that they fixed it. I finally got what I am paying them for. Imagine how many people are not... without knowing about it! Plus what you said specifically happened to my mother. Her employer knows that my mother is one of the best she has as an employee. My mother asked her employer for a higher salary, she refused, but after my mother said that she will be looking for other jobs because the work is too much for too little, she immediately was willing to negotiate a higher price.
Hard_Space 5y ago
> I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. As a freelancer, this is a pretty standard scenario where you need to have somewhere to go when you tell an old (even cherished) client about your latest price rise. If the current employer needs extra time to think it over, even by a bluff call, it's nothing personal to me. Not that I am a hardened business person, far from it - I just have a blasted view that there are no real friendships in business that trump the 'bottom line'. If I had had a different experience in my working life, I would have welcomed it! Contracts exist because trust in business is too risky a strategy.
jeffrallen 5y ago
Ah, the old "take this job and shove it" gambit. Interesting. Let's see what the boss's next move is... Ah, the old "search in vain for a replacement and complain that this generation doesn't want to work" gambit. Interesting... Not.
buzzwords 5y ago
Reading the comments here is quite fascinating. I have handed in my notice too for similar reasons. I took this job with a pay cut so that I can do more coding as my previous experience was mostly support. But after two years I haven't done that much coding. Currently I wear too many hats too, and very little experience in any one them.
xenihn 5y ago
There are still too many managers who don't understand one of their primary responsibilities in a market that favors employees: making sure that their best engineers don't leave. The job market won't always be like this, but you'd think that they would have figured it out by now during the current run. It's been nearly a decade at this point, and the pandemic has tipped things even further in the favor of the people who make the sausage.
- hinkley 5y ago
  This is not quite right and I think this is where we let our egos get away with us. Their responsibility is to maintain a good team, not the best person. In the cost benefit analysis, keeping a couple of pretty good people at the expense of your 'best' person might work out better. And a high maintenance person costs more than money.
- spockz 5y ago
  To be fair to the managers, from my experience managers themselves have little to say and it is mostly HR that determines rules like compensation. In our case, insanely, salaries are frozen. Nothing that your direct manager can do about it. Except, leave, and get hired the next day.
  - everfrustrated 5y ago
    There's an exception for every rule. As a manager I've fought HR to get pay rises during pay freezes. And won. Bad managers roll over when presented with obstacles, great ones fight for their team.
    - zo1 5y ago
      Pushy, bossy, extroverted, or "people person" managers do that. The whole thing is stacked against docile introverts, no matter how many reasoned and well thought out arguments they make.
    - alex_anglin 5y ago
      The great ones also realize that there are other things employees value and build upon those, along with compensation.
toomuchtodo 5y ago
When the worker has another offer in hand, you've already lost as a hiring manager/org.
- edgriebel 5y ago
  ^^^^ yes! Your worker already has one foot out the door and has seen the greener grass outside the door. Is it really greener? Probably not but will be to them!
  - rad_gruchalski 5y ago
    Ah, the green pasture. It always looks green until one steps on it.
    - webmaven 5y ago
      > Ah, the green pasture. It always looks green until one steps on it. The grass doesn't change color when you step on it, but you might discover that it's just astroturf.
    - beckingz 5y ago
      The greenest pastures are the most fertilized, so watch your step.
- Frost1x 5y ago
  Not necessarily. You're at a disadvantage because you've suddenly lost the total leverage you once (thought you) had. It's still possible for the org to redeem itself. The issue is, no org takes the opportunity. Part of the issue is that businesses have become so greedy people no longer even want to waste their time negotiating with them. Once I have an offer in hand, I can ask you for some things like a raise, reduced hours, etc. The general response will always be no. At that point I can tell you I have a competing offer in hand and you can then, when you realize you lost leverage too late, attempt to recover the situation. The issue at this point is that you've lost all my trust and I can see indirect retaliation as a reasonable followup should I choose to stay and relinquish my leverage. So it's almost always in my best interest to leave at that point and yes, you "lost." Alternatively I could have leverage, or maybe I don't, but perhaps when I ask for a promotion or raise you don't immediately discard the discussion or tossed some canned "budgets are tight" argument when margins are visibly fat. You listen and evaluate (and not slowly) and make a decision not based on being cheap but based on actual value. Suddenly, I have a familiar devil I already know and a better setup than I did before. Suddenly you became competitive. No only did you take me seriously and perform an objective evaluation, you followed through with it. You just earned loyalty points which are hard to come by. I expect in the future if I come with another reasonable request, you'll evaluate and attempt to meet it fairly. I suddenly like you. Now, if I have an offer in hand and I already know you cannot match it because I understand the financials very well and... you really can't afford it, then yes unfortunately you probably did lose. You may be able to compete by making other sacrifices that are less financial in nature but if the offer is significantly higher, unfortunately there's little way I'll stay. Early in my career from my first position I tripled my salary in my first move. My first employer was genuinely great but I knew they couldn't ever reasonably meet that offer so I didn't really even try to negotiate, I just gave them more notice than normal.
robbintt 5y ago
Agreed - people who employ dishonest tactics during negotiation should be left alone at the table. I have been in this situation in the past and it's always the right move to walk if they won't come to the table when you ask politely.
- xpe 5y ago
  Yes, being dishonest during a negotiation often torpedos the whole interaction. I tend to think there is a pretty broad space where most reasonable people will agree to what an honest discussion looks like. Just remember, when it comes to companies and compensation, there are myriad ways a company can not lie and still mislead you.
xibalba 5y ago
Beautiful. I remember hearing it said that if you're not willing to walk away completely from a negotiation, you have zero actual leverage. Bravo!
- alex_anglin 5y ago
  Negotiating courses often refer to this as the BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement). Considering what that scenario is and having it as your bottom line is the best piece of advice they impart.
  - ghaff 5y ago
    Haven't looked at it in years but I remember Getting to Yes as being a great little book on negotiation. Maybe there are better books out there but I found it a good place to start. There are a number of other things in there too. For example, you may not have the same priorities as the person you're negotiating with.
    - BeetleB 5y ago
      It's an OK book. I really liked "Bargaining for Advantage".
    - mawise 5y ago
      I'd recommend _Never Split The Difference_, by former Chief FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss. Very fun read and widely applicable. Spoiler: His advice is not to strong-arm, but to build trust with your counterpart.
      - laserlight 5y ago
        Hostage negotiation is a game played once between parties. Most of daily life situations are repeated games, in which dynamics are different. I found that the author was biased by their experience in one-off games and their suggestions wouldn’t generalize well into repeated games. Unfortunately, there is no acknowledgement of this until the very end of the book. Still a good read though.
throwaway4aday 5y ago
I'm in the same situation but I don't really know what to do. I've been trying to extricate myself from a lot of stuff but the way things are structured it doesn't seem like I'm going to be able to just focus on one role. It looks like a lot of openings are offering a fair amount more than my current salary as well. The only thing holding me back at the moment is that I really like the people I work with.
- cableshaft 5y ago
  Maybe by leaving you'll indirectly be helping them get the push they need to start look for something better themselves. I know I dragged my feet but eventually enough people left that I was like, "Alright I have to find something new" and I ended up with a much better role and compensation as well, and probably should have left earlier. And I also like the people at the new place too, and keep in touch (somewhat) with my old coworkers.
- lordnacho 5y ago
  You'll still like them after you leave. It's often nice to have a network of people you no longer work with.
- artificialLimbs 5y ago
  >> I really like the people I work with. Quality of life can be a considerable part of compensation, imo.
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  Who’s to say you won’t like the people at your next job?
- davewritescode 5y ago
  In the same boat, I think this is something that's going on everywhere because of the market. I love the people but I'm spread so thin something is eventually going to explode. I've basically given myself another year
mathattack 5y ago
Giving raises and promotions only when people have outside offers invents awful behavior all around. Yet so many companies do this “just this one time…”
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  Yes. Incentivising looking for other jobs instead of performing well.
antisthenes 5y ago
> When I gave my verbal notice, suddenly there was immediate backpedaling and said maybe something could be worked out. I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. Agreed. That's like trying to take your money back once you see a river card that doesn't help you in poker. Just doesn't work like that. Negotiate in good faith or accept the potential consequences.
protonimitate 5y ago
Same thing happened to me at my last company. I was over worked, wore too many hats, and was paid significantly less than my team mates who were more junior than I was (and had less responsibility). I had a handful of conversations that never amounted to anything. As soon as I put in my notice with a new offer in hand suddenly I was able to "set my price". I left for other reasons as well, but it really shone a light on how management thought of ICs. Managers: proactively reward your ICs, don't wait until they're halfway out the door. I would honestly take a less aggressive adjustment in comp if it was done proactively, rather than waiting until I'm fed up and on my way out.
- steveBK123 5y ago
  Too many roles / too many hats is far too common and why I find it hard to stay anywhere more than 4-5 years. As a senior IC in a super-flat & growing org.. I'm almost like a customer successs engineer, product manager, scrum master, senior developer and tech lead all rolled into one. Management administrivia I accumulate administrative things my manager doesn't want to do & pushes down I do unofficially own a part of the team Dotted lines of devs in my "team" that can be rolled in & out sprint by sprint Customer success / product / architecture I collect customer requirements, translate them into stories & documentation I manage customer/manager expectations with status meetings & reports I project plan out 3 months of work with JIRA hierarchies/Gantt chart I design solutions given the requirements Scrum I run our standups, sprint plannings, backlog refinements Corporate citizenship I am involved in recruiting 5-10% of my week I run working groups / long running cross team tech org Development I do IC work - directly assigned sprint deliverable tickets (analysis, development, infra creation) I need to accomplish I've been looking at moving to a more official management role elsewhere so I can focus at being good at a few things instead of decent at all the things.
  - robertlagrant 5y ago
    Sounds like you could co-found a company, which could also be cool but in the other direction.
  - strgcmc 5y ago
newsbinator 5y ago
> I hinted about what my decision would have to be if these accomodations couldn't be made I don't hint because it's too confusing. I try to very politely offer options, where one option is me looking for another opportunity. It's not as though it's a secret to either party that's always an option.
- MereInterest 5y ago
  I wouldn't hint either, but because at best it puts you in an incredibly vulnerable position. First, it indicates that you're willing to look for a new job, which decreases opportunities at your job. Maybe that means being passed over for larger projects, since they're less certain if you'll be there through the entire project. Maybe that means not receiving ongoing training, because they're uncertain that they'd benefit from it. Repeat this over a longer period of time, and your list of accomplishments comes short, because you've been denied opportunities. Second, it opens you up to retribution. The USA has at-will employment, meaning that you can be fired at any time, and have no legal recourse for it. It can be for any reason that isn't explicitly prohibited, or can be for no reason at all. Looking for a new job is much less stressful when you already have a job. If you indicate that you might look for a new job without already having an offer, you could end up doing a more stressful job search while on a countdown to bankruptcy. Third, even if you have an offer letter, it still isn't a position for effective bargaining. The employer could agree to the raise, wait a month until your offer expires, and then fire you. I hate that it's a game that needs to be played. I hate the deception, and wish that there could be smoother transitions instead. But so long as the power disparity exists between employer and employee, you should never hint that you're looking for a new job until you are announcing your resignation, and you should never accept a counteroffer after having announced it. Maybe that would be different in a system with stronger unions or better protections for workers, but that isn't the system we're in.
  - xpe 5y ago
    I mostly agree with the above rationale, though I am skeptical about your first point. Having other options, in my view, is a strength. If a company can't put together something comparable to your alternative, it probably is time for a change.
davewritescode 5y ago
> When I gave my verbal notice, suddenly there was immediate backpedaling and said maybe something could be worked out. I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. Good for you! This is something I always tell junior engineers who are looking for ways to negotiate for something (usually pay and/or promotions). Although it's very effective, negotiation by throwing a competing offer on the bosses desk usually starts a fire-drill up the management chain which gets you noticed in a not-so-positive way. It also leaves a lot of bad feelings all around.
- myownpetard 5y ago
  The only way to know the price of your labor is to interview and see what the market says. Companies are happy to have a non-competitive monopoly on your labor where they can unilaterally set the price. I think engineers (or anybody really) should try to get an offer or two every couple of years to anchor the price of their labor. Otherwise you leave yourself with a constant information asymmetry with your employer. Your manager might be great, but a company wants to pay you as little as possible to get what they want from you. That's the nature of the labor market. And if you don't create a market for your labor then your employer gets to be the only bidder at the auction.
  - hinkley 5y ago
    > The only way to know the price of your labor is to interview and see what the market says. There are other ways to infer your value. Taking longer vacations, especially off season, can illustrate to people what it's like not to have you around. If they don't miss you, it's time to move on. If they do, it's time to remind your boss. I knew one guy who was a career employee for a Fortune 500 company, he just moved around every five years, but this guy had the ballsiest negotiation tactic I've ever seen. When it was time to discuss a raise, he'd wear a suit to work and take two hour lunches. In one case he didn't even have time to talk to his boss before his boss approached him with a raise.

by daenz 5y ago

deagle50 5y ago

Re "trust is broken" - I used to think like this and I understand, but I would encourage you to try a more nuanced POV. There's a decent chance your manager was simply not allowed to accommodate you, and your verbal notice unlocked options from upper management.

mjburgess 5y ago
A good human being would say, "i'm not allowed to say this but...". Which good managers will do. You're on the path to leaving anyway.
- deagle50 5y ago
  If that got out, said manager may be marked by the bosses for opening Pandora's box. When people have dependents and mortgages on the line, "good" has very little to do with it. Sad but true.
  - citizenpaul 5y ago
    A good manager would still make clear that their hands are tied and this is all they can offer at this time. They will have to check with upper mgmt for any further options depending on the response to their current offer. There are a million legal/safe ways to say that the negotiation is not over just keep pushing. It could also hint that the manager thought the commenter was one of those social cripples that cannot handle negotiations professionally but it doesn't sound to be the case.
    - WJW 5y ago
      Out of the million safe ways to say the negotiation is not over, quite a lot are so obscure that most employees would not even pick up on the subleties. (And if we're honest, we all know coworkers who wouldn't get that hint even if the manager outright told them their hands were tied at this point in the negotiation)
  - Godel_unicode 5y ago
    Without blaming the manager for the decisions of those above them, surely you have to see that this strengthens the argument that you shouldn't trust this person?
    - deagle50 5y ago
      Maybe - I'm mainly making the point for future situations where it may make sense to stay if you don't adopt a binary trust mentality (which upper management probably does not have).
kodah 5y ago
All that means is that the problem isn't managers but upper management micromanaging IC benefits.
laserlight 5y ago
> There's a decent chance your manager was simply not allowed to accommodate you A trusted party wouldn’t hesitate to explain the situation.

AlwaysRock 5y ago

I was playing a board game with my 7-year-old niece recently. She negotiates the same way most companies do. She holds the line firmly until her bluff is called, and then backtracks quickly once it's too late. The biggest différance is my 7-year-old will learn, while companies will continue to make the same mistakes.

ethbr0 5y ago
I highly support playing negotiation and/or lying+consequence board games with children. The skills are lifelong, and the stakes are much lower than when they have to exercise them in the real world. Coup [0] and Love Letter [1] are both easy entry and quick play examples. Also, I got in the habit of making my kids negotiate their own payment for household tasks. With agreement based on the skill with which they do so. ;) [0] https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/131357/coup https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/131357/coup [1] https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/129622/love-letter https://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/129622/love-letter
- TehShrike 5y ago
  Cockroach Poker is another good bluffing game that 4-year-olds can play.
  - gwd 5y ago
    That's a good one to play with in-laws who don't speak your language as well. But as much as I enjoy it, I'm not entirely convinced there's any more to it than straight up luck.
- philsnow 5y ago
  What part of Love Letter has negotiation or lying(+consequences)? In my house it's nearly strictly deduction.
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Maybe it's because I played Coup first, but the way we play there's continuous talking about what's in ones hand. Which gives it more of a poker flavor.

manuelabeledo 5y ago

> I had too many roles, affecting too many pieces of engineering, and my title didn't reflect my work [...] I hinted about what my decision would have to be if these accomodations couldn't be made, but he didn't budge. My position exactly. I won't be leaving my company, but I will be transitioning to a more defined role in a different department. Didn't sit too well with my current manager. He told me that I couldn't just leave like that. I offered him a 80/20 arrangement, and he didn't like it either. I'll be transitioning anyway. It's just a bit bizarre that a manager would potentially alienate someone who seems to be indispensable for the operation.

chasd00 5y ago
> He told me that I couldn't just leave like that. isn't the answer to that question "take it up with HR"? that was very gracious of you to even offer an 80/20 arrangement. Ironically, i bet HR would have a hard time with an 80/20 dual role setup.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  > Ironically, i bet HR would have a hard time with an 80/20 dual role setup. I guess I thought I did my best to avoid burning any bridges, but I was actually bargaining against myself.
- dvtrn 5y ago
  Generally speaking, what's the general opinion on 80/20'ing your way into a lateral transfer? I've done it a couple times, at best I ended up leaving, at worst, HR never actually recorded the transfer so when time came a few years down the road, it was on my resume, but come employment verification time, I (and the firm that had offered me a position) learned that archived employee records had me listed down under my prior role, not the one I had transferred into-and had since that point, used for experience in leveraging new jobs. I lost a job offer because of it. Now I'm reticent to do any kind of 80/20's without written considerations from the company.

Osiris 5y ago

Employers make the mistake of seeing employees as a cost center instead of as revenue generators. I recently finished a leadership class and the primary focus was on treating employees as people / human. This perspective makes it possible to make decisions that make for happy employees which, in turn, makes for more productive employees. Employers that focus solely on cost are missing the forest for the trees; it's extremely short sighted. I now work for a DAO in which decisions are made by "the community" (those with tokens have voting power). Not having a traditional leadership structure has been so liberating. Everything is fully transparent.

car 5y ago

"People don't leave companies, they leave managers."

fedorareis 5y ago
That saying really isn’t true. I know plenty of people that liked their manager but still left companies. There are plenty of reasons people leave companies that have nothing to do with their manager.
- karmajunkie 5y ago
  i’d say it was at least half true —i’ve definitely left both companies and managers!
  - simonhughes22 5y ago
    I agree.
yibg 5y ago
I hear this all the time, but I've actually never left a manager. I've liked all of my managers. It's usually either some external force like a compelling opportunity or something with the org that is beyond my manager's control.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]

ftlio 5y ago

Every time I leave a job, there's suddenly the money I was asking for available. If someone was asking for a raise and you couldn't give it to them, and then they turn in their notice, and then there's onus to retain them at their original ask, the only thing to say is "congrats, we definitely regret not making things work for you here".

hinkley 5y ago
Some people take "If you don't have time to do something right, you have time to do it over." as a task list.

pictur 5y ago

Is it just the title? Is it a problem that some people don't see you in that title?

kache_ 5y ago

As the old tech bro addage goes: Alpha as fuck

dt3ft 5y ago

Similar thing with me. Starting at a new job in February. Left because the title did not reflect my work. There was not much room for negotiation and I had a scouted offer on the table with better comp and more interesting work.

ryanSrich 5y ago

I don’t get this type of management at all. The leverage is always in the developers/engineers hand. The company has essentially zero leverage when it comes to negotiating pay with highly in-demand employees. The only reality for the business is what they can feasibly pay you, and it’s likely much much more than what you’re getting now. Pretending like they have leverage in this position assumes the engineer is less informed. It doesn’t compute for me. When I hire engineers I give them as close to the top dollar as I can and if that’s not enough there’s nothing else I can do. It’s not fun when they walk, but at least I know there was nothing else I could do.

jollybean 5y ago

While I can understand your sentiment, I don't think you handled that negotiation very well. Playing chicken by drawing hard lines in the sand is not negotiating - they were actually willing to budge, you were not. Again, it's entirely your prerogative, just understand that this is not going to lead to optimal outcomes. Finally, you mentioned something like '4 day work week' - in most situations today, it's completely off the table. If it's common in your company and you fit the policy, then sure, you can ask. But if '4 day work week' is not policy at your company, then what you are really asking if for the company to change it's policy and open it up to everyone. I'm sure you concede that you're not the only one possibly deserving such a flexible opportunity. So your demand extends much broader than just yourself, and the consequences of giving this flex to one person, would mean an immediate negotiation with large numbers of other employees, which can be disruptive. Of course, maybe they should have the policy, but it's definitely reasonable that they don't as well. And finally, this assumes that they didn't have such a policy in place. Consider what would have happened were you to have contemplated a counter offer from the company. There's probably an outcome in there that's pretty good for both sides, an when that happens it's a broader win for everyone.

grog454 5y ago

> I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. Not that it would be likely to happen, but you could also have doubled down. Now you'll need a 3 day work week and an additional 10% pay bump. There is some potential value in keeping emotion and irrelevant sentiment (like "trust") out of the equation.

johnisgood 5y ago

This happens virtually everywhere. I hate it. This is such a common experience with any sort of providers as well. I called up my ISP because the internet speed was worse than what I was paying for. They "fixed" it. So far so good, but there were times when they did not want to do this, they tried to "rationalize" it away using bullshit pseudo-technical sentences thinking that they are talking to someone who knows nothing about computers and networking. Anyways, I told them that I am going to switch to another ISP, and after that they fixed it. I finally got what I am paying them for. Imagine how many people are not... without knowing about it! Plus what you said specifically happened to my mother. Her employer knows that my mother is one of the best she has as an employee. My mother asked her employer for a higher salary, she refused, but after my mother said that she will be looking for other jobs because the work is too much for too little, she immediately was willing to negotiate a higher price.

Hard_Space 5y ago

> I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. As a freelancer, this is a pretty standard scenario where you need to have somewhere to go when you tell an old (even cherished) client about your latest price rise. If the current employer needs extra time to think it over, even by a bluff call, it's nothing personal to me. Not that I am a hardened business person, far from it - I just have a blasted view that there are no real friendships in business that trump the 'bottom line'. If I had had a different experience in my working life, I would have welcomed it! Contracts exist because trust in business is too risky a strategy.

jeffrallen 5y ago

Ah, the old "take this job and shove it" gambit. Interesting. Let's see what the boss's next move is... Ah, the old "search in vain for a replacement and complain that this generation doesn't want to work" gambit. Interesting... Not.

buzzwords 5y ago

Reading the comments here is quite fascinating. I have handed in my notice too for similar reasons. I took this job with a pay cut so that I can do more coding as my previous experience was mostly support. But after two years I haven't done that much coding. Currently I wear too many hats too, and very little experience in any one them.

xenihn 5y ago

There are still too many managers who don't understand one of their primary responsibilities in a market that favors employees: making sure that their best engineers don't leave. The job market won't always be like this, but you'd think that they would have figured it out by now during the current run. It's been nearly a decade at this point, and the pandemic has tipped things even further in the favor of the people who make the sausage.

hinkley 5y ago
This is not quite right and I think this is where we let our egos get away with us. Their responsibility is to maintain a good team, not the best person. In the cost benefit analysis, keeping a couple of pretty good people at the expense of your 'best' person might work out better. And a high maintenance person costs more than money.
spockz 5y ago
To be fair to the managers, from my experience managers themselves have little to say and it is mostly HR that determines rules like compensation. In our case, insanely, salaries are frozen. Nothing that your direct manager can do about it. Except, leave, and get hired the next day.
- everfrustrated 5y ago
  There's an exception for every rule. As a manager I've fought HR to get pay rises during pay freezes. And won. Bad managers roll over when presented with obstacles, great ones fight for their team.
  - zo1 5y ago
    Pushy, bossy, extroverted, or "people person" managers do that. The whole thing is stacked against docile introverts, no matter how many reasoned and well thought out arguments they make.
  - alex_anglin 5y ago
    The great ones also realize that there are other things employees value and build upon those, along with compensation.

toomuchtodo 5y ago

When the worker has another offer in hand, you've already lost as a hiring manager/org.

edgriebel 5y ago
^^^^ yes! Your worker already has one foot out the door and has seen the greener grass outside the door. Is it really greener? Probably not but will be to them!
- rad_gruchalski 5y ago
  Ah, the green pasture. It always looks green until one steps on it.
  - webmaven 5y ago
    > Ah, the green pasture. It always looks green until one steps on it. The grass doesn't change color when you step on it, but you might discover that it's just astroturf.
  - beckingz 5y ago
    The greenest pastures are the most fertilized, so watch your step.
Frost1x 5y ago
Not necessarily. You're at a disadvantage because you've suddenly lost the total leverage you once (thought you) had. It's still possible for the org to redeem itself. The issue is, no org takes the opportunity. Part of the issue is that businesses have become so greedy people no longer even want to waste their time negotiating with them. Once I have an offer in hand, I can ask you for some things like a raise, reduced hours, etc. The general response will always be no. At that point I can tell you I have a competing offer in hand and you can then, when you realize you lost leverage too late, attempt to recover the situation. The issue at this point is that you've lost all my trust and I can see indirect retaliation as a reasonable followup should I choose to stay and relinquish my leverage. So it's almost always in my best interest to leave at that point and yes, you "lost." Alternatively I could have leverage, or maybe I don't, but perhaps when I ask for a promotion or raise you don't immediately discard the discussion or tossed some canned "budgets are tight" argument when margins are visibly fat. You listen and evaluate (and not slowly) and make a decision not based on being cheap but based on actual value. Suddenly, I have a familiar devil I already know and a better setup than I did before. Suddenly you became competitive. No only did you take me seriously and perform an objective evaluation, you followed through with it. You just earned loyalty points which are hard to come by. I expect in the future if I come with another reasonable request, you'll evaluate and attempt to meet it fairly. I suddenly like you. Now, if I have an offer in hand and I already know you cannot match it because I understand the financials very well and... you really can't afford it, then yes unfortunately you probably did lose. You may be able to compete by making other sacrifices that are less financial in nature but if the offer is significantly higher, unfortunately there's little way I'll stay. Early in my career from my first position I tripled my salary in my first move. My first employer was genuinely great but I knew they couldn't ever reasonably meet that offer so I didn't really even try to negotiate, I just gave them more notice than normal.

robbintt 5y ago

Agreed - people who employ dishonest tactics during negotiation should be left alone at the table. I have been in this situation in the past and it's always the right move to walk if they won't come to the table when you ask politely.

xpe 5y ago
Yes, being dishonest during a negotiation often torpedos the whole interaction. I tend to think there is a pretty broad space where most reasonable people will agree to what an honest discussion looks like. Just remember, when it comes to companies and compensation, there are myriad ways a company can not lie and still mislead you.

xibalba 5y ago

Beautiful. I remember hearing it said that if you're not willing to walk away completely from a negotiation, you have zero actual leverage. Bravo!

alex_anglin 5y ago
Negotiating courses often refer to this as the BATNA (best alternative to a negotiated agreement). Considering what that scenario is and having it as your bottom line is the best piece of advice they impart.
- ghaff 5y ago
  Haven't looked at it in years but I remember Getting to Yes as being a great little book on negotiation. Maybe there are better books out there but I found it a good place to start. There are a number of other things in there too. For example, you may not have the same priorities as the person you're negotiating with.
  - BeetleB 5y ago
    It's an OK book. I really liked "Bargaining for Advantage".
  - mawise 5y ago
    I'd recommend _Never Split The Difference_, by former Chief FBI Hostage Negotiator Chris Voss. Very fun read and widely applicable. Spoiler: His advice is not to strong-arm, but to build trust with your counterpart.
    - laserlight 5y ago
      Hostage negotiation is a game played once between parties. Most of daily life situations are repeated games, in which dynamics are different. I found that the author was biased by their experience in one-off games and their suggestions wouldn’t generalize well into repeated games. Unfortunately, there is no acknowledgement of this until the very end of the book. Still a good read though.

throwaway4aday 5y ago

I'm in the same situation but I don't really know what to do. I've been trying to extricate myself from a lot of stuff but the way things are structured it doesn't seem like I'm going to be able to just focus on one role. It looks like a lot of openings are offering a fair amount more than my current salary as well. The only thing holding me back at the moment is that I really like the people I work with.

cableshaft 5y ago
Maybe by leaving you'll indirectly be helping them get the push they need to start look for something better themselves. I know I dragged my feet but eventually enough people left that I was like, "Alright I have to find something new" and I ended up with a much better role and compensation as well, and probably should have left earlier. And I also like the people at the new place too, and keep in touch (somewhat) with my old coworkers.
lordnacho 5y ago
You'll still like them after you leave. It's often nice to have a network of people you no longer work with.
artificialLimbs 5y ago
>> I really like the people I work with. Quality of life can be a considerable part of compensation, imo.
germinalphrase 5y ago
Who’s to say you won’t like the people at your next job?
davewritescode 5y ago
In the same boat, I think this is something that's going on everywhere because of the market. I love the people but I'm spread so thin something is eventually going to explode. I've basically given myself another year

mathattack 5y ago

Giving raises and promotions only when people have outside offers invents awful behavior all around. Yet so many companies do this “just this one time…”

robertlagrant 5y ago
Yes. Incentivising looking for other jobs instead of performing well.

antisthenes 5y ago

> When I gave my verbal notice, suddenly there was immediate backpedaling and said maybe something could be worked out. I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. Agreed. That's like trying to take your money back once you see a river card that doesn't help you in poker. Just doesn't work like that. Negotiate in good faith or accept the potential consequences.

protonimitate 5y ago

Same thing happened to me at my last company. I was over worked, wore too many hats, and was paid significantly less than my team mates who were more junior than I was (and had less responsibility). I had a handful of conversations that never amounted to anything. As soon as I put in my notice with a new offer in hand suddenly I was able to "set my price". I left for other reasons as well, but it really shone a light on how management thought of ICs. Managers: proactively reward your ICs, don't wait until they're halfway out the door. I would honestly take a less aggressive adjustment in comp if it was done proactively, rather than waiting until I'm fed up and on my way out.

steveBK123 5y ago
Too many roles / too many hats is far too common and why I find it hard to stay anywhere more than 4-5 years. As a senior IC in a super-flat & growing org.. I'm almost like a customer successs engineer, product manager, scrum master, senior developer and tech lead all rolled into one. Management administrivia I accumulate administrative things my manager doesn't want to do & pushes down I do unofficially own a part of the team Dotted lines of devs in my "team" that can be rolled in & out sprint by sprint Customer success / product / architecture I collect customer requirements, translate them into stories & documentation I manage customer/manager expectations with status meetings & reports I project plan out 3 months of work with JIRA hierarchies/Gantt chart I design solutions given the requirements Scrum I run our standups, sprint plannings, backlog refinements Corporate citizenship I am involved in recruiting 5-10% of my week I run working groups / long running cross team tech org Development I do IC work - directly assigned sprint deliverable tickets (analysis, development, infra creation) I need to accomplish I've been looking at moving to a more official management role elsewhere so I can focus at being good at a few things instead of decent at all the things.
- robertlagrant 5y ago
  Sounds like you could co-found a company, which could also be cool but in the other direction.
- strgcmc 5y ago

newsbinator 5y ago

> I hinted about what my decision would have to be if these accomodations couldn't be made I don't hint because it's too confusing. I try to very politely offer options, where one option is me looking for another opportunity. It's not as though it's a secret to either party that's always an option.

MereInterest 5y ago
I wouldn't hint either, but because at best it puts you in an incredibly vulnerable position. First, it indicates that you're willing to look for a new job, which decreases opportunities at your job. Maybe that means being passed over for larger projects, since they're less certain if you'll be there through the entire project. Maybe that means not receiving ongoing training, because they're uncertain that they'd benefit from it. Repeat this over a longer period of time, and your list of accomplishments comes short, because you've been denied opportunities. Second, it opens you up to retribution. The USA has at-will employment, meaning that you can be fired at any time, and have no legal recourse for it. It can be for any reason that isn't explicitly prohibited, or can be for no reason at all. Looking for a new job is much less stressful when you already have a job. If you indicate that you might look for a new job without already having an offer, you could end up doing a more stressful job search while on a countdown to bankruptcy. Third, even if you have an offer letter, it still isn't a position for effective bargaining. The employer could agree to the raise, wait a month until your offer expires, and then fire you. I hate that it's a game that needs to be played. I hate the deception, and wish that there could be smoother transitions instead. But so long as the power disparity exists between employer and employee, you should never hint that you're looking for a new job until you are announcing your resignation, and you should never accept a counteroffer after having announced it. Maybe that would be different in a system with stronger unions or better protections for workers, but that isn't the system we're in.
- xpe 5y ago
  I mostly agree with the above rationale, though I am skeptical about your first point. Having other options, in my view, is a strength. If a company can't put together something comparable to your alternative, it probably is time for a change.

davewritescode 5y ago

> When I gave my verbal notice, suddenly there was immediate backpedaling and said maybe something could be worked out. I declined because I don't negotiate like that. If you mismanage a negotiation, there is no do-overs just because you overplayed your hand. The trust is broken. Good for you! This is something I always tell junior engineers who are looking for ways to negotiate for something (usually pay and/or promotions). Although it's very effective, negotiation by throwing a competing offer on the bosses desk usually starts a fire-drill up the management chain which gets you noticed in a not-so-positive way. It also leaves a lot of bad feelings all around.

myownpetard 5y ago
The only way to know the price of your labor is to interview and see what the market says. Companies are happy to have a non-competitive monopoly on your labor where they can unilaterally set the price. I think engineers (or anybody really) should try to get an offer or two every couple of years to anchor the price of their labor. Otherwise you leave yourself with a constant information asymmetry with your employer. Your manager might be great, but a company wants to pay you as little as possible to get what they want from you. That's the nature of the labor market. And if you don't create a market for your labor then your employer gets to be the only bidder at the auction.
- hinkley 5y ago
  > The only way to know the price of your labor is to interview and see what the market says. There are other ways to infer your value. Taking longer vacations, especially off season, can illustrate to people what it's like not to have you around. If they don't miss you, it's time to move on. If they do, it's time to remind your boss. I knew one guy who was a career employee for a Fortune 500 company, he just moved around every five years, but this guy had the ballsiest negotiation tactic I've ever seen. When it was time to discuss a raise, he'd wear a suit to work and take two hour lunches. In one case he didn't even have time to talk to his boss before his boss approached him with a raise.