12 ms·

Why is the Simula One so expensive?

80 points by gurjeet 5y ago

axiomdata316 5y ago
I have to admit I got some sticker shock when I saw the price. I really wanted to get this too... Looking at the details of the article I still can't see what the breakout feature is that keeps me from just getting an Oculus Quest and using the Immersed app to do basically the same thing. The biggest "negative" the article seems to be focusing on is that you need a Facebook account to use Oculus Quest but I don't see many limits on the basic experience. Also, it focuses on how no sacrifices were made and that this is a premium product. This is a hard sell since you can't wear it or try it first before forking over almost 3 grand. When iPhones first were released, they were a premium product, but you could go to an Apple Store and play with it first. Here you have to rely on a datasheet and trust that these improvements will significantly matter. I would much rather have started with a less premium product that allows me to try it first and if I fall in love with the potential for productivity, I may invest it the premium product in the future.
- ugjka 5y ago
  Would make sense for them to have an easy and painless return and refund policy
  - kanetw 5y ago
    I'll talk with George about introducing a refund policy. In fact I'm pretty sure we had it in the original drafts for the webshop, but since we moved to Kickstarter funding we haven't thought about that yet.
- stocknoob 5y ago
  I think 3 grand for an early adopter product is cheap. The Macintosh was $2500 in 80s dollars (5-6k today) when it launched. If this is something that actually helps your work, a few hundred a month is well worth it.
  - georgewsinger 5y ago
    We should have added comps for early/retro PCs =] My dad (who isn't a technical person; lawyer by trade) once told me that he spent $5K in early 90's dollars (which is much higher today) on an early 386 color laptop. This was like the price of a new car. (Not saying Simula's VRC is an apples to apples comparison with this, or that we'd ever want to charge that much for something, but it is interesting to hear about how expensive some early computing devices were when the laptop industry was getting off the ground).
- kanetw 5y ago
  > Looking at the details of the article I still can't see what the breakout feature is that keeps me from just getting an Oculus Quest and using the Immersed app to do basically the same thing. The biggest "negative" the article seems to be focusing on is that you need a Facebook account to use Oculus Quest but I don't see many limits on the basic experience. Compared to a Quest/Immersed combo: * we offer significantly higher PPD (and better optics with no ghost images, Fresnel rings, etc.; but that's hard to quantify) than any other headset on the market except super-high end ones. You would not be able to read text on a Quest like you can on a normal 27" monitor; you can with our headset. * Immersed does not do window management. We support unlimited, actual windows. Immersed only does a handful (up to 10 at reduced resolution? need to check) virtual displays, which is pretty annoying from a UX perspective. * Immersed needs to be tethered, which is reduced quality and higher latency due to the WiFi connection.
  - lhl 5y ago
    Is there more detail/discussion on the optics posted anywhere? It would be nice to see some info like PPD across the image area, distortion (corrected and uncorrected) and chromatic aberration, pupil swim/eye box, focal distance, and some other display details like contrast, black levels, brightness - I've been interested (and spent a fair bit of time working on a POC several years ago) in VR workspaces, but shelved my work due to the lack of HMDs with sufficient visual quality/comfort. Lately I've been interested in the newest upcoming micro-oled/pancake lens wave of devices (Arpara, MeganeX, etc) which seem to hit decent PPDs at reasonable price points. $3K doesn't seem entirely unreasonable but it makes me wonder - the XR2 has 3K/eye support and does all the hard work for device design, 6dof, and you could probably work with an ODM like Goertek to get an almost finished product at a fraction of the price? Also for hand tracking, are you planning to integrate something COTS like an Ultraleap 170?
    - kanetw 5y ago
      We could make a blog post about it. I feel like a lot of it is going to be super technical for most people, though. Here's what I can answer off the top of my head. Centroid separation for lateral color is roughly 0mm for 0-30 degrees then sharply decreases at about -0.1mm/5 degrees When eye is rotated 25 degrees horizontally, pupil swim is within 10-20 arcmin for (+-40 V, 0-40 H) field angles. This is already fairly low, but we also plan to correct it with eye tracking if it's noticeable. Allowable eye shift is +-2mm, eye box accounting for eye rotation is around 18mm. Full 20um RMS spot size in that region for the foveal region (+-25 deg). Display is a LCD panel. 600:1 contrast, 150 nits brightness, 83% NTSC. We actually considered pancake lenses, but the low transmission (15% in a pancake design vs ~85% in ours) and the ghost image issues made us step away from them. XR2 does all the hard work, but Qualcomm pretty much ignored us when we messaged them. Besides, it'd pretty much be dead weight since we want an x86 processor for our primary use case as a laptop replacement. And yeah we're planning to integrate the Ultraleap module if they get their Linux software sorted. If not, there's fallbacks. (I think we also messaged Goertek and got nothing, so... a big part of why we're doing this, and will likely open source most of it, is that all the usual vendors didn't talk to us)
georgewsinger 5y ago
If anyone's comfortable sharing: what is the price point you'd be willing to spend on a Simula One? (Unfortunately our unit costs are pretty stuck at these low volumes, but it'd still be really useful to know what people's long-run price expectations are for a Linux VR Computer).
- gs17 5y ago
  I actually think the (backer) price is about what I would expect for what you get. My issue is that it's a big investment for something that's really cool, but not necessary, so my current finances don't justify me getting one. A professor I work with is big on buying every bit of AR/VR tech that comes out, I'll have to see what he thinks of it.
- 3np 5y ago
  I'm an outlier but I'm ready to jump in at these prices, which is pretty much what I would expect for the hardware. A bigger factor than price for me is payment options. If my only option is Paypal/Stripe/Google/Apple, I will most likely hold off; accept BTC and you've got me for sure. I have a feeling that my preference may be unusually common among the people excited about dropping thousands on a Linux headset.
  - yet-another-tim 5y ago
    I'd prefer crypto as a payment option too. Not sure if Kickstarter offers it as an option though, so I presume that would be the core constraint. sometimes I've seen projects running on Kickstarter and Indiegogo at the same time. Maybe there is some kind of workaround like that, except for adding crypto as a payment option.
    - 3np 5y ago
      Ah, that’s unfortunate.. Having to ask a friend to borrow their card for that amount might be tricky. EDIT: What would you think of something like this? HMU if you’d like to discuss setting it up, I’d be happy to help https://medium.com/@BtcpayServer/btcpay-crowdfunding-abbb84525d8a https://medium.com/@BtcpayServer/btcpay-crowdfunding-abbb845...
noir_lord 5y ago
> This is because sub-par VR technology (e.g. the Quest 2) Calling horseshit on that, I have a Quest 2 and it is a brilliant bit of kit for 1/10th the price. Is it a VRPC or whatever they are on about, no - it was clearly not intended to be, is it the sweetspot for VR right now, yep and it works fantastically when connected to a PC or standalone, the boy loves it.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  I should rephrase that sentence. Agreed the Quest 2 is a great device for its price. What I mean to say is that the Quest 2 isn't pushing the current limits for VR pixel density (by having a high Pixels-Per-Degree aka PPD). High PPD is important for gaming but extremely important for VR computing/office, since it heavily impacts how high quality text and other fine details (icons, etc) show up for you. This is one of the main drivers of our high price. Since we're trying to get people to work in a VR headset for 8+ hours in a day (replacing their PCs/laptops as their primary computing device), we needed to offer as high a PPD as we possibly can. This requires state of the art displays and a compute unit powerful enough to power the rendering. We also have a special text filter in Simula which is optimized specifically for text rendering. There are other problems with the Quest 2 as well, but low PPD is the most important one. Price is definitely not one of its problems (though its low price is being subsidized by its bringing people into the Facebook ecosystem, etc). The Quest 2 is primarily a gaming/entertainment device, and it does a pretty good job at that. The Simula One is primarily a VRC (though it can be used for gaming in Tethered mode).
  - gs17 5y ago
    The Quest also isn't pushing the limits for FOV either, compared to my usual headset it feels like goggles. I'm impressed if the Simula really beats it on both of these.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      We put in a lot of effort into the optics and we use variable magnification tech to get the most out of our displays (i.e. there's more pixels per degree in the foveal region, and less in the periphery where you can't see them anyways). The drawback is that the optical train is long and there's 3 complex lenses as opposed to 1 glued assembly (not sure if it's 1 or 2 lenses). Adds per-unit cost and assembly labor, and at a $300 ($800 realistically) price point that's a lot.
vfournier11 5y ago
Using Lenovo MSRP is doing deck stacking as they are notoriously overpriced and always on "sale".
- kanetw 5y ago
  Even if you reduce it to it's sale price it's favorable. It's not like we aren't on "sale" either via Kickstarter discounts.
  - vfournier11 5y ago
    Not sure to follow, my point was that the Lenovo is currently on sale for $2045 and that using $3500 as a price is kind of misleading as you would never buy this laptop at MSRP. That being said your Kickstarter rebate is a real rebate (or sale ;)), I was using "sale" because Lenovos laptops are always on sale hence the real price is the price on sale.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      I guess it depends? I bought my P14s at basically MSRP and it didn't drop much. The X1 Carbon did drop a lot, though. We might adjust it to be "$2k current price, $3.4k MSRP" though.
redhawk610 5y ago
If the specs can be delivered then the pricing seems fair, but I guess I was wishfully thinking for a deal. Guess not everyone can recoup their costs with your data like Meta
cheriot 5y ago
Can anyone make the case for why VR will be more productive than a laptop and monitor? The Simula website mostly talks about specs and not why I'd want to use this for work.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  Here are some reasons: - 10x more windows/virtual screens than PCs & Laptops - Persistent ("always on") computing wherever you are able to walk and think. - Promotes better posture (you don't have to sit hunched over a laptop screen, but have more freedom of movement). - Better work immersion/focus than PCs & Laptops. There's something about having the world around you blocked out and just focusing on your work (though Simula will support an AR mode via front cameras when you need to see things). Though I am biased, there is also great aesthetic appeal to working in "The Future". From Iron Man to The Minority Report, our Sci-Fi has been promising us for decades a future of always-on spatial computing with omnipresent screens. Working in a VR Computer allows you start to experience that future.
  - NationalPark 5y ago
    Does it actually promote better posture? They don't mention its weight anywhere, which makes me think it's heavier than competing headsets, which already aren't the most comfortable to wear for long periods. I am excited about the possibilities this opens though. Will it be more convenient than a terminal emulator running tmux? Maybe not for me, but I could see people who deal with more visual assets like game developers using this.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      We don't promote the weight because we aren't yet at the stage of integration where we can promote it at. However, you can expect it to be around 800g front+back combined, so around the same as an Index. In our experience, a balanced headset is more important than a light one.
  - adventured 5y ago
    > 10x more windows/virtual screens than PCs & Laptops That's a productivity drain not a benefit. Modern operating systems could already drown us in zillions of screens if it were actually useful - it's not. That's a productivity fantasy element, like people pretending it's possible to multi-task (more screens, more work, more output). All you get is the equivalent of the hoarder clutter of a thousand browser tabs for no great reason. Humans max out on productivity and usefulness gains from additional screens at a very low number. > Persistent ("always on") computing wherever you are able to walk and think. A tablet, a smartphone - it's a trivial difference in timing, as those items are a moment away from use in terms of always on. And where are you walking with a VR computer on your head? > Promotes better posture (you don't have to sit hunched over a laptop screen, but have more freedom of movement). That one is false and probably your worst premise. Posture is a choice, you either consciously choose to pursue better posture and constantly reinforce it or you don't, and if you don't then absolutely nothing will keep you from bad posture. A VR computer on your head is very low on the list of things that is likely to finally encourage someone to consciously adjust their body toward better posture. I'd bet on the opposite outcome as far more likely, body damage from wearing a heavy object for too long.
spoonjim 5y ago
It doesn’t make sense to put the PC right on the headset - it adds to the weight that needs to be supported by your neck. A backpack or Fanny pack Pc plus a tethered cable would be much smarter, and would also let you swap out the PC and headset separately.
- redhawk610 5y ago
  Looks like there’s a cheaper tethered version available for $1999. Perhaps the computer is removable anyway?
  - kanetw 5y ago
    It is removable. In fact, we plan to have it dockable so you can use it separately and reuse it for e.g. homeserver purposes when the hardware gets older.
    - ryukafalz 5y ago
      When you say dockable, do you mean that the module will be easily removable to put in a dock or just that it's possible to remove it for that (e.g. by opening the unit)? Mainly want to know like... is this the kind of thing I could do regularly when I don't feel like being in VR, or is it more effort than that?
      - kanetw 5y ago
        The module will be easily removable so you can put in a dock. It basically slots into a receptacle in the back of your head.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
disambiguation 5y ago
Wow I forgot all about MagicLeap, surprised to see they're still getting funding. re: Simula, this is the first I'm hearing of this device and it's a pretty cool concept. I have an Index but IME the larget bottleneck for productivity is the "screen door effect" and resolution. Text is tiny. The 2nd bottleneck being difficulty using peripheral devices (KBM) while in VR. Curious if anyone has tried this device yet and can confirm whether these problems are addressed?
- chaostheory 5y ago
  I haven't tried this device, but I've tried HP's G2 (which is noticeable absent from Simula's comparison matrix). From personal experience, it's terrible for games that require controller tracking aside from driving and flying sims, but... it has a 2160 resolution per eye (text is very clear with no screen door effect) and it's $599 MSRP; it also frequently goes on sale for $399. Paired with Virtual Desktop software, you can work in VR now in Windows & MacOS if portability and Linux support isn't a necessity; though I imagine it could work on a high powered laptop https://www.hp.com/us-en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html https://www.hp.com/us-en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html https://www.vrdesktop.net/ https://www.vrdesktop.net/ On a side note, I don't notice the screen door effect in either the Index or Quest 2 while playing games. Are you saying you notice it while playing games, or while reading text?
  - disambiguation 5y ago
    re: index, it has definitely gotten a lot better vs. the OG vive but ex. 12px font is still fuzzy IMO. Overall it does not yet improve on what i can do on a regular laptop screen.
    - chaostheory 5y ago
      > ex. 12px font is still fuzzy IMO. The G2 definitely solves that problem. > Overall it does not yet improve on what i can do on a regular laptop screen. If you're ok with a small laptop screen that makes sense. The main thing that it solves at the moment is available screen real estate. It greatly increases it. Depending on the software you use, it can also solve the issue of feeling isolated. IM and video calls aren't good enough
r_hoods_ghost 5y ago
I'm quite interested in the product because I've spent a lot of time using the quest 2 since it came out and I'd agree that it's not quite there resolution wise for work. But man is this written in an arrogant, self aggrandising, off putting way. It's like they're trying to channel the spotty PC Gamer / Linux master race energy. Definitely putting this onto the "do not back" pile.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  I'm sorry we gave you that impression. After several years, there's been nothing more humbling than trying to get Simula off the ground (first developing the software, and now the hardware). We've been smacked in the face so many times. So we don't feel very arrogant, at least. Maybe our tone isn't quite right. We're just trying to convey to people that our headset has a different use case/is designed for something different than portable gaming/entertainment.
  - istorical 5y ago
    I think your characterization of your device as fitting a new category is entirely fair, but you don't do yourself favors by using glib language to describe competing products/categories: "We decided early on that, given the cards we were dealt, it's better to build a premium headset with a high price than to build a shitty headset with a low price. This is because sub-par VR technology (e.g. the Quest 2) is simply not good enough for someone wanting to work several hours per day in a VR Computer instead of their laptop -- even if most people don't realize this yet." If you simply reworded this from "sub-par" to "other" or "existing" or "lower-end" you'd come across as less arrogant. I say this with upmost respect for what your team has been able to accomplish, but if the Quest 2 is "shitty" then your product is flaming garbage. But if you simply mean to say it's shitty in the particular dimensions / role you are designating the VRC (VR Computer) then you may reword it and be a bit more diplomatic.
    - georgewsinger 5y ago
      We just pushed the change to the blog post. Though it's true we are very opinionated about the Quest 2's adequacy for long VR computing sessions, we're not trying to be glib or flippant about the Quest 2 (an otherwise excellent VR headset for the price).
lab14 5y ago
A little off-topic, but does anyone know if there's been good research about the long term effects of having a screen a few millimeters away, beaming photons to your retina continuously?
- 1123581321 5y ago
  A little late to answer, but yes, there is research suggesting that periodically looking long distances has health benefits, including preventing near-sightedness. One could reasonably expect mass adoption to accelerate rates of vision problems. Here's one high level summary/starting point: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/looking-to-the-distance-for-healthy-vision https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/looking-to-the-dista... There may be a way for VR headsets to help with this, depending on why this occurs. For example, if the benefit comes from focusing on a distant object, headset screens may be able to simulate this. If the benefit comes from looking at physical objects, headsets may need to make it easy to quickly move the screen out of the way of the eyes. What would be best, though, would be for us to figure out how to get past this glut of required information work and digital entertainment so we can spend more time away from screens--my opinion, of course.
- Buttons840 5y ago
  I wish most devices had a gradual fade option for volume and brightness, etc. I'd rather hit a button to increase the volume once an hour than realize I've had the volume way to high for the last hour, or realize I've been staring at a full brightness screen for no good reason.
JosephRedfern 5y ago
I am curious -- why the 1:1 aspect ratio/FoV? A quick Google suggests the human eye is more like 5:3 (though vary variable).
- kanetw 5y ago
  Several reasons: * Square displays are what's readily available in the VR form factor (2-3" diagonal) * Rectangular displays will murder your minimum IPD, which kills accessibility for a lot of users * Reducing the size/increasing pixel density makes the optics exponentially more complex. We're already pushing the limits of what's possible without pancake lenses. * Pancake lenses are a nightmare of complexity when you want high-quality images. Ghost images, low transmission, etc. all increase development cost by a lot. And the unit cost is significantly higher, but that's not an issue here (the NREs are the main cost driver)
  - JosephRedfern 5y ago
    Very interesting. Thank you!
georgewsinger 5y ago
Though our unit prices are more or less stuck at these low volumes, we appreciate the feedback in this thread, and hope to offer a lower priced VR computer during our next iteration. If you're comfortable with our current price, we're offering a small number of early bird headsets for $2,499 (vs. our standard $2,799 Kickstarter price). If you're interested in getting notified an hour before our campaign starts (to max the chances of getting one), you can sign up here: https://buttondown.email/simula_one_kickstarter https://buttondown.email/simula_one_kickstarter
- freemint 5y ago
  Do you have any strong dates when it comes to delivery/production? You are not competing what's available now but what is available when your device is released.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    With our current lead times, basically a year from now.
istorical 5y ago
Hadn't heard of this product but it looks pretty cool, although at this point for me content is a bigger problem than hardware with VR. But congrats on what looks like a cool product. One thing I'd like to hear is how this device feels to wear as the weight sounds quite intimidating. Quest 2 already gives many a sore neck at less than 200g but this seems to be 800g? My assumption was/is that as you start increasing your perf/hardware it starts to make more sense to go with the hockey-puck/backpack/pocket smartphone etc. tethered processing unit elsewhere on the body rather than strapping a toaster to the front of your face.
- kanetw 5y ago
  The heat should be fairly manageable. Most of the front side components are low-power and we'll be managing the climate in the face part so you don't get sweaty due to low circulation. The compute pack will be at the back of your head with the airflow going away from you, so it shouldn't be too noticeable. Thermal design is definitely a priority for us. Putting it on your head reduces the amount of cables on your person, so you don't accidentally tangle yourself or something. Also, it improves the balance so it might actually feel better than a front-heavy headset (compare a Vive with an Index for example).
- 0x6c6f6c 5y ago
  The weight is actually very similar to the HTC Vive with the premium audio strap, which is 741g. That as well, it actually feels better to have the audio strap which distributes the weight better than just the 470g headset alone.
- thebigman433 5y ago
  Quest 2 is a bit under 600g I think, not 200
kipple 5y ago
Would you spend all day working in VR? A few months ago, I would say no. But I got myself a Quest 2 for Christmas, and now... maybe. AR would make it better though, so I'm not just floating disconnected in digital space. I see in their homepage hero banner background[0] you get a floating window with video of your hands. It would be nice if the whole background is a passthrough to reality, and then you float your OS windows on top of that. [0] https://simulavr.com/ https://simulavr.com/
- kanetw 5y ago
  It will be. We'll be demoing the AR mode in our Kickstarter ad, but basically the entire background will be replaced by passthrough. No depth mapping yet, so it'll only be in the background, but first things first.
  - kipple 5y ago
    Nice! That makes it more attractive. Depth mapping would be great too, like I could pin virtual artifacts to my physical environment? Yes please.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      I'm experimenting with mmWave RADAR to get depth mapping without the idiosyncrasies of stereo RGB cameras. Especially in wildly varying environments I think that's the way to go over traditional camera-based SLAM. But if it turns out to be unfeasible, nothing's stopping us from adding more tracking cameras and doing it that way.
- ramesh31 5y ago
  >But I got myself a Quest 2 for Christmas, and now... maybe. Let me know what you think in a month. The problem with current VR tech is that it's mindblowing and incredible for the first few days, then it quickly becomes too cumbersome and frustrating to deal with on a regular basis and you forget about it. Mass adoption really won't come until it's as seamless as putting on a pair of reading glasses.
ramesh31 5y ago
$2799 for integrated Intel graphics? I'd rather just put a real gaming laptop in a backpack and use a better headset.
- kanetw 5y ago
  $1999 for the tethered version, which is in line with other upper-end headsets like the Varjo Aero (and that one doesn't have AR passthrough)
  - yet-another-tim 5y ago
    And Varjo isn't optimized for Linux like simulaVR either.
w-m 5y ago
I don’t understand the pixel per degree calculations. Quest 2 sits at 20.58 PPD in the table, which makes sense, as that’s 1832px/89deg. How do you arrive at a 35.5 PPD for the Simula VR with 2448px for 100 deg fov? It links to a [2] in the table, but there’s no [2] I the references.
- kanetw 5y ago
  We use variable magnification for the lenses. That is, the foveal region has a higher PPD and the periphery has a lower PPD. As your eyes follow the same pattern (your fovea has a high resolution, everything else drops off sharply), it's basically a free PPD gain. I put a link to the paper [1], but it's paywalled. [1] https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of-spie/10335/103350G/Super-resolution-optics-for-virtual-reality/10.1117/12.2270178.short?SSO=1 https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of...
  - wlesieutre 5y ago
    Except that your fovea moves around with your eyes and this is glued to looking straight forward. You get PPD gain if you're looking at the same thing that your face is pointed toward, at the expense of when you look off to the side. Not exactly "free" but probably worth the tradeoff. How big a "sweet spot" do you have in the center? Enough to read lines of small text without rotating your head back and forth?
    - kanetw 5y ago
      About +-15 degrees. This accounts for 86% of saccades. I need to confirm how sharply it drops after that, but in any case it should be above 20 PPD +-(15 to 30) degrees and above 12 PPD for +-(30 to 50) degrees.
  - w-m 5y ago
    This seems a bit disingenuous, listing the max/center PPD for your product, and the average PPD for the Quest.
d23 5y ago
So is the entire computer in the headset, or am I missing something? It seems like it would be heavy, no? I haven't followed this space closely, so apologies if it's an ignorant question.
- kanetw 5y ago
  The computer is on the back of your head. We target a weight of about 800g* balanced evenly, so it shouldn't be more straining than an Index * Preliminary number, might change as we make tradeoffs of battery life vs thermal solution vs weight.
  - RandomChance 5y ago
    Is the charging port USB-C? If so, can it be charged through more than one port, in the event the primary one is damaged? (My phone experiences tell me the likelihood of port damage increases the more you handle something, and this will not be sitting on a desk all day) My first thought, before I realized I had a serious question was that it would be awesome (in my particular opinion) if the battery could be separate, enabling easily swapping it or having various configurations... Maybe a belt clip or the dreaded fanny pack? ..... I just realized this is probably quite silly, you almost certainly have it identical to a laptop where you can work with it plugged in/ charging, and that would make that port even more likely to be a problem. Personally I would love to see easy support for external power packs to extend usage, but I can't think of a good reason why I would actually need that, so maybe I have been playing to many cyberpunk games lately... I really whish I could know if I would actually get the use out of it it deserves... I love the idea but sadly I can only actually work on company devices because of export control restrictions, so my personal use case would need to include gaming to justify a high end new machine right now. I will absolutely be keeping an eye out though, and if I don't get one I will hopefully be able to buy your V2 model.
    - kanetw 5y ago
      Every USB-C port will be a PD sink and source, and we plan for replacement parts/schematics to be easily available so any repair shop or competent person can do a repair. We're thinking about a separable battery for the V2. V1, too much complexity for now. You'll be able to power it off the charger or any USB-PD source while charging the battery (provided it has enough power, but that should be doable).
paxys 5y ago
Something I have been curious about – why is VR headset development going in the direction of cramming all electronics into a single component which sits on your head, rather that the headset itself being a dumb terminal and the actual storage/processing done on some other box (which doesn't have to be a PC) sitting somewhere in your house and sending signals to it wirelessly?
- gorjusborg 5y ago
  I'd still be okay with wearing the compute, just put it on my back or something. Having a ton of weight on my head is tiring. The communicate via fiber or wire to a light headset.
- seanmcdirmid 5y ago
  Latency of wireless communication is non-trivial. Those extra 100 ms to transfer a frame buf will make the experience less.
- savanaly 5y ago
  What little I know about the subject suggests it has to do with retention. It seems users of VR are much more likely to pick it back up after the initial honeymoon phase has worn off if the whole "picking it back up" process is just strapping on a headset rather than involving a second device, pairing it, etc. The less friction the better.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    Yes, exactly. We want people to just put on a headset and use it, instead of having to boot Linux and plug everything in. God knows it's a pain when I'm developing with a tethered headset.
- rtkwe 5y ago
  Because the PC or laptop required to run a dumb terminal well is more powerful than most people have. By selling an AIO unit you have a console like uniformity of hardware and ease of use experience for both the devs and the customers.
MrQuincle 5y ago
Seems clunky. I would also go for a wireless solution. Moreover, I would bring out two products. The headset and the box. The box only has to be powered on. Nothing fancy. It can be completely dedicated to the headset. And the headset itself is very light and optimized for pixels and receiving data as quick as possible. In that case you don't rely on any wifi in the house. What might happen is that you developed a box on h.256 optimized for super low latencies. Sounds as valuable tech on its own. :-)
tadbit 5y ago
I don't understand the design decision to use x86_64. It's not covered on their site, AFAIK. [1][2] It's not running Windows. Most software designed for Linux can be built for ARM. And, it's being billed as a next gen platform (by creating and using the term VRC) while using an older generation technology (x86). With the amount of power required to run that chipset this device will either require a massive battery or to always be plugged into a power source, which effectively kills any appeal for me. All of this said, I'm glad they're doing this. VR/AR in the professional workstation space is very exciting, I'm glad someone is focusing on it. [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/how-we-designed-the-simula-one/ https://simulavr.com/blog/how-we-designed-the-simula-one/ [2] https://simulavr.com/blog/technical-overview/ https://simulavr.com/blog/technical-overview/
- kanetw 5y ago
  I don't consider ARM better unless you have billions to spend on custom silicon like Apple. The power consumption is inline with any other ultra-low-power x86 (~15W TDP for the CPU). That's pretty comparable to a Snapdragon XR2 with ~10W TDP and worse performance. Users would want to use proprietary apps that are only compiled for x86. Emulation for those on ARM is not particularly feasible for any acceptable performance. If you're buying a laptop now, you would not buy an ARM device. That being said, I'm not married to x86. But I don't think ARM is the future, either.
  - tadbit 5y ago
    > I don't consider ARM better unless you have billions to spend on custom silicon like Apple. It's better when you need lower power utilisation and physically smaller footprints. Apple isn't the only name in the ARM game, and I'm not suggesting that you should be designing and manufacturing your own ARM chipsets. > The power consumption is inline with any other ultra-low-power x86 (~15W TDP for the CPU). That's pretty comparable to a Snapdragon XR2 with ~10W TDP and worse performance. Which is all incredibly high for something that's portable. If a user is required to have the headset plugged in for continuous use, it might as well just be a regular VR headset connected to a separate PC. > Users would want to use proprietary apps that are only compiled for x86. With this argument the Simula One should be running Windows instead of SimulaOS. Most Linux based applications already work on ARM or can be recompiled for it. > Emulation for those on ARM is not particularly feasible for any acceptable performance. I'm not suggesting emulation should be used. > If you're buying a laptop now, you would not buy an ARM device. I would and have bought ARM based notebooks. MacBook Air (M1), PineBook Pro, various Chromebooks. I still don't understand the decision to stick with x86 on this.
bontaq 5y ago
Any word on it having diopter adjustment? It'd be nice to be able to wear this without glasses.
- kanetw 5y ago
  Likely a stretch goal. But if we notice that it's a big usability deal as opposed to glasses/prescription lenses, we'll put it in the baseline.
Mockapapella 5y ago
OK so question: How generalizable is this? Does it come with controllers? Can I hook in controllers from another system (vive, index, oculus, etc.)? Can I play video games with this (I know that's not the main point of it, but still it would be nice)? Can I stream a video feed from a real world camera (like with a raspberry pi) to the interior displays? Either way, glad to see you guys still going strong with this, been following for a few months now. As others have mentioned, I got a little bit of sticker shock when I first saw the price. Was expecting something closer to ~$2k. Do you have an ETA for when the kickstarter will be going up? I'll have to think about backing this, depending on the answers to my questions above.
- kanetw 5y ago
  > How generalizable is this? All the software is or will be open source, so much more than any other headset on the market. Ideally the FPGA code would be open source to, but I don't know if that's possible with licensed IPs > Does it come with controllers? No controllers. > Can I hook in controllers from another system (vive, index, oculus, etc.)? Any controller that's supported by OpenXR is supported, and we'll likely have SteamVR support as well. > Can I play video games with this? In tethered mode, absolutely. In standalone mode, only very light games, but might be doable. > Can I stream a video feed from a real world camera (like with a raspberry pi) to the interior displays? Yes. In fact, we'll have AR passthrough by default, but nothing's stopping you from using different cameras. If you are not interested in the standalone capabilities, the headset without compute pack (i.e. tethered only) will be ~2k.
bradwood 5y ago
I have a couple of dumb questions: I use reading glasses. Would I need to wear them inside the headset? I dot lots of video conferencing. How would I appear in a zoom or msteams call with this on?
- kanetw 5y ago
  > I use reading glasses. Would I need to wear them inside the headset? Depends. We're planning a diopter adjustment (either as baseline or as a stretch goal), which might be sufficient. Alternately, there's enough space in the headset for glasses and it'll also be possible to get prescription lens inserts. > I dot lots of video conferencing. How would I appear in a zoom or msteams call with this on? You would appear like you're wearing a headset. Not much we can do about that, unfortunately.
- mdrzn 5y ago
  I do have to wear glasses with the Rift S, sometimes they get foggy tho.

80 points by gurjeet 5y ago

I have to admit I got some sticker shock when I saw the price. I really wanted to get this too... Looking at the details of the article I still can't see what the breakout feature is that keeps me from just getting an Oculus Quest and using the Immersed app to do basically the same thing. The biggest "negative" the article seems to be focusing on is that you need a Facebook account to use Oculus Quest but I don't see many limits on the basic experience. Also, it focuses on how no sacrifices were made and that this is a premium product. This is a hard sell since you can't wear it or try it first before forking over almost 3 grand. When iPhones first were released, they were a premium product, but you could go to an Apple Store and play with it first. Here you have to rely on a datasheet and trust that these improvements will significantly matter. I would much rather have started with a less premium product that allows me to try it first and if I fall in love with the potential for productivity, I may invest it the premium product in the future.

ugjka 5y ago
Would make sense for them to have an easy and painless return and refund policy
- kanetw 5y ago
  I'll talk with George about introducing a refund policy. In fact I'm pretty sure we had it in the original drafts for the webshop, but since we moved to Kickstarter funding we haven't thought about that yet.
stocknoob 5y ago
I think 3 grand for an early adopter product is cheap. The Macintosh was $2500 in 80s dollars (5-6k today) when it launched. If this is something that actually helps your work, a few hundred a month is well worth it.
- georgewsinger 5y ago
  We should have added comps for early/retro PCs =] My dad (who isn't a technical person; lawyer by trade) once told me that he spent $5K in early 90's dollars (which is much higher today) on an early 386 color laptop. This was like the price of a new car. (Not saying Simula's VRC is an apples to apples comparison with this, or that we'd ever want to charge that much for something, but it is interesting to hear about how expensive some early computing devices were when the laptop industry was getting off the ground).
kanetw 5y ago
> Looking at the details of the article I still can't see what the breakout feature is that keeps me from just getting an Oculus Quest and using the Immersed app to do basically the same thing. The biggest "negative" the article seems to be focusing on is that you need a Facebook account to use Oculus Quest but I don't see many limits on the basic experience. Compared to a Quest/Immersed combo: * we offer significantly higher PPD (and better optics with no ghost images, Fresnel rings, etc.; but that's hard to quantify) than any other headset on the market except super-high end ones. You would not be able to read text on a Quest like you can on a normal 27" monitor; you can with our headset. * Immersed does not do window management. We support unlimited, actual windows. Immersed only does a handful (up to 10 at reduced resolution? need to check) virtual displays, which is pretty annoying from a UX perspective. * Immersed needs to be tethered, which is reduced quality and higher latency due to the WiFi connection.
- lhl 5y ago
  Is there more detail/discussion on the optics posted anywhere? It would be nice to see some info like PPD across the image area, distortion (corrected and uncorrected) and chromatic aberration, pupil swim/eye box, focal distance, and some other display details like contrast, black levels, brightness - I've been interested (and spent a fair bit of time working on a POC several years ago) in VR workspaces, but shelved my work due to the lack of HMDs with sufficient visual quality/comfort. Lately I've been interested in the newest upcoming micro-oled/pancake lens wave of devices (Arpara, MeganeX, etc) which seem to hit decent PPDs at reasonable price points. $3K doesn't seem entirely unreasonable but it makes me wonder - the XR2 has 3K/eye support and does all the hard work for device design, 6dof, and you could probably work with an ODM like Goertek to get an almost finished product at a fraction of the price? Also for hand tracking, are you planning to integrate something COTS like an Ultraleap 170?
  - kanetw 5y ago
    We could make a blog post about it. I feel like a lot of it is going to be super technical for most people, though. Here's what I can answer off the top of my head. Centroid separation for lateral color is roughly 0mm for 0-30 degrees then sharply decreases at about -0.1mm/5 degrees When eye is rotated 25 degrees horizontally, pupil swim is within 10-20 arcmin for (+-40 V, 0-40 H) field angles. This is already fairly low, but we also plan to correct it with eye tracking if it's noticeable. Allowable eye shift is +-2mm, eye box accounting for eye rotation is around 18mm. Full 20um RMS spot size in that region for the foveal region (+-25 deg). Display is a LCD panel. 600:1 contrast, 150 nits brightness, 83% NTSC. We actually considered pancake lenses, but the low transmission (15% in a pancake design vs ~85% in ours) and the ghost image issues made us step away from them. XR2 does all the hard work, but Qualcomm pretty much ignored us when we messaged them. Besides, it'd pretty much be dead weight since we want an x86 processor for our primary use case as a laptop replacement. And yeah we're planning to integrate the Ultraleap module if they get their Linux software sorted. If not, there's fallbacks. (I think we also messaged Goertek and got nothing, so... a big part of why we're doing this, and will likely open source most of it, is that all the usual vendors didn't talk to us)

georgewsinger 5y ago

If anyone's comfortable sharing: what is the price point you'd be willing to spend on a Simula One? (Unfortunately our unit costs are pretty stuck at these low volumes, but it'd still be really useful to know what people's long-run price expectations are for a Linux VR Computer).

gs17 5y ago
I actually think the (backer) price is about what I would expect for what you get. My issue is that it's a big investment for something that's really cool, but not necessary, so my current finances don't justify me getting one. A professor I work with is big on buying every bit of AR/VR tech that comes out, I'll have to see what he thinks of it.
3np 5y ago
I'm an outlier but I'm ready to jump in at these prices, which is pretty much what I would expect for the hardware. A bigger factor than price for me is payment options. If my only option is Paypal/Stripe/Google/Apple, I will most likely hold off; accept BTC and you've got me for sure. I have a feeling that my preference may be unusually common among the people excited about dropping thousands on a Linux headset.
- yet-another-tim 5y ago
  I'd prefer crypto as a payment option too. Not sure if Kickstarter offers it as an option though, so I presume that would be the core constraint. sometimes I've seen projects running on Kickstarter and Indiegogo at the same time. Maybe there is some kind of workaround like that, except for adding crypto as a payment option.
  - 3np 5y ago
    Ah, that’s unfortunate.. Having to ask a friend to borrow their card for that amount might be tricky. EDIT: What would you think of something like this? HMU if you’d like to discuss setting it up, I’d be happy to help https://medium.com/@BtcpayServer/btcpay-crowdfunding-abbb84525d8a https://medium.com/@BtcpayServer/btcpay-crowdfunding-abbb845...

noir_lord 5y ago

> This is because sub-par VR technology (e.g. the Quest 2) Calling horseshit on that, I have a Quest 2 and it is a brilliant bit of kit for 1/10th the price. Is it a VRPC or whatever they are on about, no - it was clearly not intended to be, is it the sweetspot for VR right now, yep and it works fantastically when connected to a PC or standalone, the boy loves it.

georgewsinger 5y ago
I should rephrase that sentence. Agreed the Quest 2 is a great device for its price. What I mean to say is that the Quest 2 isn't pushing the current limits for VR pixel density (by having a high Pixels-Per-Degree aka PPD). High PPD is important for gaming but extremely important for VR computing/office, since it heavily impacts how high quality text and other fine details (icons, etc) show up for you. This is one of the main drivers of our high price. Since we're trying to get people to work in a VR headset for 8+ hours in a day (replacing their PCs/laptops as their primary computing device), we needed to offer as high a PPD as we possibly can. This requires state of the art displays and a compute unit powerful enough to power the rendering. We also have a special text filter in Simula which is optimized specifically for text rendering. There are other problems with the Quest 2 as well, but low PPD is the most important one. Price is definitely not one of its problems (though its low price is being subsidized by its bringing people into the Facebook ecosystem, etc). The Quest 2 is primarily a gaming/entertainment device, and it does a pretty good job at that. The Simula One is primarily a VRC (though it can be used for gaming in Tethered mode).
- gs17 5y ago
  The Quest also isn't pushing the limits for FOV either, compared to my usual headset it feels like goggles. I'm impressed if the Simula really beats it on both of these.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    We put in a lot of effort into the optics and we use variable magnification tech to get the most out of our displays (i.e. there's more pixels per degree in the foveal region, and less in the periphery where you can't see them anyways). The drawback is that the optical train is long and there's 3 complex lenses as opposed to 1 glued assembly (not sure if it's 1 or 2 lenses). Adds per-unit cost and assembly labor, and at a $300 ($800 realistically) price point that's a lot.

vfournier11 5y ago

Using Lenovo MSRP is doing deck stacking as they are notoriously overpriced and always on "sale".

kanetw 5y ago
Even if you reduce it to it's sale price it's favorable. It's not like we aren't on "sale" either via Kickstarter discounts.
- vfournier11 5y ago
  Not sure to follow, my point was that the Lenovo is currently on sale for $2045 and that using $3500 as a price is kind of misleading as you would never buy this laptop at MSRP. That being said your Kickstarter rebate is a real rebate (or sale ;)), I was using "sale" because Lenovos laptops are always on sale hence the real price is the price on sale.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    I guess it depends? I bought my P14s at basically MSRP and it didn't drop much. The X1 Carbon did drop a lot, though. We might adjust it to be "$2k current price, $3.4k MSRP" though.

redhawk610 5y ago

If the specs can be delivered then the pricing seems fair, but I guess I was wishfully thinking for a deal. Guess not everyone can recoup their costs with your data like Meta

cheriot 5y ago

Can anyone make the case for why VR will be more productive than a laptop and monitor? The Simula website mostly talks about specs and not why I'd want to use this for work.

georgewsinger 5y ago
Here are some reasons: - 10x more windows/virtual screens than PCs & Laptops - Persistent ("always on") computing wherever you are able to walk and think. - Promotes better posture (you don't have to sit hunched over a laptop screen, but have more freedom of movement). - Better work immersion/focus than PCs & Laptops. There's something about having the world around you blocked out and just focusing on your work (though Simula will support an AR mode via front cameras when you need to see things). Though I am biased, there is also great aesthetic appeal to working in "The Future". From Iron Man to The Minority Report, our Sci-Fi has been promising us for decades a future of always-on spatial computing with omnipresent screens. Working in a VR Computer allows you start to experience that future.
- NationalPark 5y ago
  Does it actually promote better posture? They don't mention its weight anywhere, which makes me think it's heavier than competing headsets, which already aren't the most comfortable to wear for long periods. I am excited about the possibilities this opens though. Will it be more convenient than a terminal emulator running tmux? Maybe not for me, but I could see people who deal with more visual assets like game developers using this.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    We don't promote the weight because we aren't yet at the stage of integration where we can promote it at. However, you can expect it to be around 800g front+back combined, so around the same as an Index. In our experience, a balanced headset is more important than a light one.
- adventured 5y ago
  > 10x more windows/virtual screens than PCs & Laptops That's a productivity drain not a benefit. Modern operating systems could already drown us in zillions of screens if it were actually useful - it's not. That's a productivity fantasy element, like people pretending it's possible to multi-task (more screens, more work, more output). All you get is the equivalent of the hoarder clutter of a thousand browser tabs for no great reason. Humans max out on productivity and usefulness gains from additional screens at a very low number. > Persistent ("always on") computing wherever you are able to walk and think. A tablet, a smartphone - it's a trivial difference in timing, as those items are a moment away from use in terms of always on. And where are you walking with a VR computer on your head? > Promotes better posture (you don't have to sit hunched over a laptop screen, but have more freedom of movement). That one is false and probably your worst premise. Posture is a choice, you either consciously choose to pursue better posture and constantly reinforce it or you don't, and if you don't then absolutely nothing will keep you from bad posture. A VR computer on your head is very low on the list of things that is likely to finally encourage someone to consciously adjust their body toward better posture. I'd bet on the opposite outcome as far more likely, body damage from wearing a heavy object for too long.

spoonjim 5y ago

It doesn’t make sense to put the PC right on the headset - it adds to the weight that needs to be supported by your neck. A backpack or Fanny pack Pc plus a tethered cable would be much smarter, and would also let you swap out the PC and headset separately.

redhawk610 5y ago
Looks like there’s a cheaper tethered version available for $1999. Perhaps the computer is removable anyway?
- kanetw 5y ago
  It is removable. In fact, we plan to have it dockable so you can use it separately and reuse it for e.g. homeserver purposes when the hardware gets older.
  - ryukafalz 5y ago
    When you say dockable, do you mean that the module will be easily removable to put in a dock or just that it's possible to remove it for that (e.g. by opening the unit)? Mainly want to know like... is this the kind of thing I could do regularly when I don't feel like being in VR, or is it more effort than that?
    - kanetw 5y ago
      The module will be easily removable so you can put in a dock. It basically slots into a receptacle in the back of your head.
deleted 5y ago
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disambiguation 5y ago

Wow I forgot all about MagicLeap, surprised to see they're still getting funding. re: Simula, this is the first I'm hearing of this device and it's a pretty cool concept. I have an Index but IME the larget bottleneck for productivity is the "screen door effect" and resolution. Text is tiny. The 2nd bottleneck being difficulty using peripheral devices (KBM) while in VR. Curious if anyone has tried this device yet and can confirm whether these problems are addressed?

chaostheory 5y ago
I haven't tried this device, but I've tried HP's G2 (which is noticeable absent from Simula's comparison matrix). From personal experience, it's terrible for games that require controller tracking aside from driving and flying sims, but... it has a 2160 resolution per eye (text is very clear with no screen door effect) and it's $599 MSRP; it also frequently goes on sale for $399. Paired with Virtual Desktop software, you can work in VR now in Windows & MacOS if portability and Linux support isn't a necessity; though I imagine it could work on a high powered laptop https://www.hp.com/us-en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html https://www.hp.com/us-en/vr/reverb-g2-vr-headset.html https://www.vrdesktop.net/ https://www.vrdesktop.net/ On a side note, I don't notice the screen door effect in either the Index or Quest 2 while playing games. Are you saying you notice it while playing games, or while reading text?
- disambiguation 5y ago
  re: index, it has definitely gotten a lot better vs. the OG vive but ex. 12px font is still fuzzy IMO. Overall it does not yet improve on what i can do on a regular laptop screen.
  - chaostheory 5y ago
    > ex. 12px font is still fuzzy IMO. The G2 definitely solves that problem. > Overall it does not yet improve on what i can do on a regular laptop screen. If you're ok with a small laptop screen that makes sense. The main thing that it solves at the moment is available screen real estate. It greatly increases it. Depending on the software you use, it can also solve the issue of feeling isolated. IM and video calls aren't good enough

r_hoods_ghost 5y ago

I'm quite interested in the product because I've spent a lot of time using the quest 2 since it came out and I'd agree that it's not quite there resolution wise for work. But man is this written in an arrogant, self aggrandising, off putting way. It's like they're trying to channel the spotty PC Gamer / Linux master race energy. Definitely putting this onto the "do not back" pile.

georgewsinger 5y ago
I'm sorry we gave you that impression. After several years, there's been nothing more humbling than trying to get Simula off the ground (first developing the software, and now the hardware). We've been smacked in the face so many times. So we don't feel very arrogant, at least. Maybe our tone isn't quite right. We're just trying to convey to people that our headset has a different use case/is designed for something different than portable gaming/entertainment.
- istorical 5y ago
  I think your characterization of your device as fitting a new category is entirely fair, but you don't do yourself favors by using glib language to describe competing products/categories: "We decided early on that, given the cards we were dealt, it's better to build a premium headset with a high price than to build a shitty headset with a low price. This is because sub-par VR technology (e.g. the Quest 2) is simply not good enough for someone wanting to work several hours per day in a VR Computer instead of their laptop -- even if most people don't realize this yet." If you simply reworded this from "sub-par" to "other" or "existing" or "lower-end" you'd come across as less arrogant. I say this with upmost respect for what your team has been able to accomplish, but if the Quest 2 is "shitty" then your product is flaming garbage. But if you simply mean to say it's shitty in the particular dimensions / role you are designating the VRC (VR Computer) then you may reword it and be a bit more diplomatic.
  - georgewsinger 5y ago
    We just pushed the change to the blog post. Though it's true we are very opinionated about the Quest 2's adequacy for long VR computing sessions, we're not trying to be glib or flippant about the Quest 2 (an otherwise excellent VR headset for the price).

lab14 5y ago

A little off-topic, but does anyone know if there's been good research about the long term effects of having a screen a few millimeters away, beaming photons to your retina continuously?

1123581321 5y ago
A little late to answer, but yes, there is research suggesting that periodically looking long distances has health benefits, including preventing near-sightedness. One could reasonably expect mass adoption to accelerate rates of vision problems. Here's one high level summary/starting point: https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/looking-to-the-distance-for-healthy-vision https://pursuit.unimelb.edu.au/articles/looking-to-the-dista... There may be a way for VR headsets to help with this, depending on why this occurs. For example, if the benefit comes from focusing on a distant object, headset screens may be able to simulate this. If the benefit comes from looking at physical objects, headsets may need to make it easy to quickly move the screen out of the way of the eyes. What would be best, though, would be for us to figure out how to get past this glut of required information work and digital entertainment so we can spend more time away from screens--my opinion, of course.
Buttons840 5y ago
I wish most devices had a gradual fade option for volume and brightness, etc. I'd rather hit a button to increase the volume once an hour than realize I've had the volume way to high for the last hour, or realize I've been staring at a full brightness screen for no good reason.

JosephRedfern 5y ago

I am curious -- why the 1:1 aspect ratio/FoV? A quick Google suggests the human eye is more like 5:3 (though vary variable).

kanetw 5y ago
Several reasons: * Square displays are what's readily available in the VR form factor (2-3" diagonal) * Rectangular displays will murder your minimum IPD, which kills accessibility for a lot of users * Reducing the size/increasing pixel density makes the optics exponentially more complex. We're already pushing the limits of what's possible without pancake lenses. * Pancake lenses are a nightmare of complexity when you want high-quality images. Ghost images, low transmission, etc. all increase development cost by a lot. And the unit cost is significantly higher, but that's not an issue here (the NREs are the main cost driver)
- JosephRedfern 5y ago
  Very interesting. Thank you!

georgewsinger 5y ago

Though our unit prices are more or less stuck at these low volumes, we appreciate the feedback in this thread, and hope to offer a lower priced VR computer during our next iteration. If you're comfortable with our current price, we're offering a small number of early bird headsets for $2,499 (vs. our standard $2,799 Kickstarter price). If you're interested in getting notified an hour before our campaign starts (to max the chances of getting one), you can sign up here: https://buttondown.email/simula_one_kickstarter https://buttondown.email/simula_one_kickstarter

freemint 5y ago
Do you have any strong dates when it comes to delivery/production? You are not competing what's available now but what is available when your device is released.
- kanetw 5y ago
  With our current lead times, basically a year from now.

istorical 5y ago

Hadn't heard of this product but it looks pretty cool, although at this point for me content is a bigger problem than hardware with VR. But congrats on what looks like a cool product. One thing I'd like to hear is how this device feels to wear as the weight sounds quite intimidating. Quest 2 already gives many a sore neck at less than 200g but this seems to be 800g? My assumption was/is that as you start increasing your perf/hardware it starts to make more sense to go with the hockey-puck/backpack/pocket smartphone etc. tethered processing unit elsewhere on the body rather than strapping a toaster to the front of your face.

kanetw 5y ago
The heat should be fairly manageable. Most of the front side components are low-power and we'll be managing the climate in the face part so you don't get sweaty due to low circulation. The compute pack will be at the back of your head with the airflow going away from you, so it shouldn't be too noticeable. Thermal design is definitely a priority for us. Putting it on your head reduces the amount of cables on your person, so you don't accidentally tangle yourself or something. Also, it improves the balance so it might actually feel better than a front-heavy headset (compare a Vive with an Index for example).
0x6c6f6c 5y ago
The weight is actually very similar to the HTC Vive with the premium audio strap, which is 741g. That as well, it actually feels better to have the audio strap which distributes the weight better than just the 470g headset alone.
thebigman433 5y ago
Quest 2 is a bit under 600g I think, not 200

kipple 5y ago

Would you spend all day working in VR? A few months ago, I would say no. But I got myself a Quest 2 for Christmas, and now... maybe. AR would make it better though, so I'm not just floating disconnected in digital space. I see in their homepage hero banner background[0] you get a floating window with video of your hands. It would be nice if the whole background is a passthrough to reality, and then you float your OS windows on top of that. [0] https://simulavr.com/ https://simulavr.com/

kanetw 5y ago
It will be. We'll be demoing the AR mode in our Kickstarter ad, but basically the entire background will be replaced by passthrough. No depth mapping yet, so it'll only be in the background, but first things first.
- kipple 5y ago
  Nice! That makes it more attractive. Depth mapping would be great too, like I could pin virtual artifacts to my physical environment? Yes please.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    I'm experimenting with mmWave RADAR to get depth mapping without the idiosyncrasies of stereo RGB cameras. Especially in wildly varying environments I think that's the way to go over traditional camera-based SLAM. But if it turns out to be unfeasible, nothing's stopping us from adding more tracking cameras and doing it that way.
ramesh31 5y ago
>But I got myself a Quest 2 for Christmas, and now... maybe. Let me know what you think in a month. The problem with current VR tech is that it's mindblowing and incredible for the first few days, then it quickly becomes too cumbersome and frustrating to deal with on a regular basis and you forget about it. Mass adoption really won't come until it's as seamless as putting on a pair of reading glasses.

ramesh31 5y ago

$2799 for integrated Intel graphics? I'd rather just put a real gaming laptop in a backpack and use a better headset.

kanetw 5y ago
$1999 for the tethered version, which is in line with other upper-end headsets like the Varjo Aero (and that one doesn't have AR passthrough)
- yet-another-tim 5y ago
  And Varjo isn't optimized for Linux like simulaVR either.

w-m 5y ago

I don’t understand the pixel per degree calculations. Quest 2 sits at 20.58 PPD in the table, which makes sense, as that’s 1832px/89deg. How do you arrive at a 35.5 PPD for the Simula VR with 2448px for 100 deg fov? It links to a [2] in the table, but there’s no [2] I the references.

kanetw 5y ago
We use variable magnification for the lenses. That is, the foveal region has a higher PPD and the periphery has a lower PPD. As your eyes follow the same pattern (your fovea has a high resolution, everything else drops off sharply), it's basically a free PPD gain. I put a link to the paper [1], but it's paywalled. [1] https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of-spie/10335/103350G/Super-resolution-optics-for-virtual-reality/10.1117/12.2270178.short?SSO=1 https://www.spiedigitallibrary.org/conference-proceedings-of...
- wlesieutre 5y ago
  Except that your fovea moves around with your eyes and this is glued to looking straight forward. You get PPD gain if you're looking at the same thing that your face is pointed toward, at the expense of when you look off to the side. Not exactly "free" but probably worth the tradeoff. How big a "sweet spot" do you have in the center? Enough to read lines of small text without rotating your head back and forth?
  - kanetw 5y ago
    About +-15 degrees. This accounts for 86% of saccades. I need to confirm how sharply it drops after that, but in any case it should be above 20 PPD +-(15 to 30) degrees and above 12 PPD for +-(30 to 50) degrees.
- w-m 5y ago
  This seems a bit disingenuous, listing the max/center PPD for your product, and the average PPD for the Quest.

d23 5y ago

So is the entire computer in the headset, or am I missing something? It seems like it would be heavy, no? I haven't followed this space closely, so apologies if it's an ignorant question.

kanetw 5y ago
The computer is on the back of your head. We target a weight of about 800g* balanced evenly, so it shouldn't be more straining than an Index * Preliminary number, might change as we make tradeoffs of battery life vs thermal solution vs weight.
- RandomChance 5y ago
  Is the charging port USB-C? If so, can it be charged through more than one port, in the event the primary one is damaged? (My phone experiences tell me the likelihood of port damage increases the more you handle something, and this will not be sitting on a desk all day) My first thought, before I realized I had a serious question was that it would be awesome (in my particular opinion) if the battery could be separate, enabling easily swapping it or having various configurations... Maybe a belt clip or the dreaded fanny pack? ..... I just realized this is probably quite silly, you almost certainly have it identical to a laptop where you can work with it plugged in/ charging, and that would make that port even more likely to be a problem. Personally I would love to see easy support for external power packs to extend usage, but I can't think of a good reason why I would actually need that, so maybe I have been playing to many cyberpunk games lately... I really whish I could know if I would actually get the use out of it it deserves... I love the idea but sadly I can only actually work on company devices because of export control restrictions, so my personal use case would need to include gaming to justify a high end new machine right now. I will absolutely be keeping an eye out though, and if I don't get one I will hopefully be able to buy your V2 model.
  - kanetw 5y ago
    Every USB-C port will be a PD sink and source, and we plan for replacement parts/schematics to be easily available so any repair shop or competent person can do a repair. We're thinking about a separable battery for the V2. V1, too much complexity for now. You'll be able to power it off the charger or any USB-PD source while charging the battery (provided it has enough power, but that should be doable).

paxys 5y ago

Something I have been curious about – why is VR headset development going in the direction of cramming all electronics into a single component which sits on your head, rather that the headset itself being a dumb terminal and the actual storage/processing done on some other box (which doesn't have to be a PC) sitting somewhere in your house and sending signals to it wirelessly?

gorjusborg 5y ago
I'd still be okay with wearing the compute, just put it on my back or something. Having a ton of weight on my head is tiring. The communicate via fiber or wire to a light headset.
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Latency of wireless communication is non-trivial. Those extra 100 ms to transfer a frame buf will make the experience less.
savanaly 5y ago
What little I know about the subject suggests it has to do with retention. It seems users of VR are much more likely to pick it back up after the initial honeymoon phase has worn off if the whole "picking it back up" process is just strapping on a headset rather than involving a second device, pairing it, etc. The less friction the better.
- kanetw 5y ago
  Yes, exactly. We want people to just put on a headset and use it, instead of having to boot Linux and plug everything in. God knows it's a pain when I'm developing with a tethered headset.
rtkwe 5y ago
Because the PC or laptop required to run a dumb terminal well is more powerful than most people have. By selling an AIO unit you have a console like uniformity of hardware and ease of use experience for both the devs and the customers.

MrQuincle 5y ago

Seems clunky. I would also go for a wireless solution. Moreover, I would bring out two products. The headset and the box. The box only has to be powered on. Nothing fancy. It can be completely dedicated to the headset. And the headset itself is very light and optimized for pixels and receiving data as quick as possible. In that case you don't rely on any wifi in the house. What might happen is that you developed a box on h.256 optimized for super low latencies. Sounds as valuable tech on its own. :-)

tadbit 5y ago

I don't understand the design decision to use x86_64. It's not covered on their site, AFAIK. [1][2] It's not running Windows. Most software designed for Linux can be built for ARM. And, it's being billed as a next gen platform (by creating and using the term VRC) while using an older generation technology (x86). With the amount of power required to run that chipset this device will either require a massive battery or to always be plugged into a power source, which effectively kills any appeal for me. All of this said, I'm glad they're doing this. VR/AR in the professional workstation space is very exciting, I'm glad someone is focusing on it. [1] https://simulavr.com/blog/how-we-designed-the-simula-one/ https://simulavr.com/blog/how-we-designed-the-simula-one/ [2] https://simulavr.com/blog/technical-overview/ https://simulavr.com/blog/technical-overview/

kanetw 5y ago
I don't consider ARM better unless you have billions to spend on custom silicon like Apple. The power consumption is inline with any other ultra-low-power x86 (~15W TDP for the CPU). That's pretty comparable to a Snapdragon XR2 with ~10W TDP and worse performance. Users would want to use proprietary apps that are only compiled for x86. Emulation for those on ARM is not particularly feasible for any acceptable performance. If you're buying a laptop now, you would not buy an ARM device. That being said, I'm not married to x86. But I don't think ARM is the future, either.
- tadbit 5y ago
  > I don't consider ARM better unless you have billions to spend on custom silicon like Apple. It's better when you need lower power utilisation and physically smaller footprints. Apple isn't the only name in the ARM game, and I'm not suggesting that you should be designing and manufacturing your own ARM chipsets. > The power consumption is inline with any other ultra-low-power x86 (~15W TDP for the CPU). That's pretty comparable to a Snapdragon XR2 with ~10W TDP and worse performance. Which is all incredibly high for something that's portable. If a user is required to have the headset plugged in for continuous use, it might as well just be a regular VR headset connected to a separate PC. > Users would want to use proprietary apps that are only compiled for x86. With this argument the Simula One should be running Windows instead of SimulaOS. Most Linux based applications already work on ARM or can be recompiled for it. > Emulation for those on ARM is not particularly feasible for any acceptable performance. I'm not suggesting emulation should be used. > If you're buying a laptop now, you would not buy an ARM device. I would and have bought ARM based notebooks. MacBook Air (M1), PineBook Pro, various Chromebooks. I still don't understand the decision to stick with x86 on this.

bontaq 5y ago

Any word on it having diopter adjustment? It'd be nice to be able to wear this without glasses.

kanetw 5y ago
Likely a stretch goal. But if we notice that it's a big usability deal as opposed to glasses/prescription lenses, we'll put it in the baseline.

Mockapapella 5y ago

OK so question: How generalizable is this? Does it come with controllers? Can I hook in controllers from another system (vive, index, oculus, etc.)? Can I play video games with this (I know that's not the main point of it, but still it would be nice)? Can I stream a video feed from a real world camera (like with a raspberry pi) to the interior displays? Either way, glad to see you guys still going strong with this, been following for a few months now. As others have mentioned, I got a little bit of sticker shock when I first saw the price. Was expecting something closer to ~$2k. Do you have an ETA for when the kickstarter will be going up? I'll have to think about backing this, depending on the answers to my questions above.

kanetw 5y ago
> How generalizable is this? All the software is or will be open source, so much more than any other headset on the market. Ideally the FPGA code would be open source to, but I don't know if that's possible with licensed IPs > Does it come with controllers? No controllers. > Can I hook in controllers from another system (vive, index, oculus, etc.)? Any controller that's supported by OpenXR is supported, and we'll likely have SteamVR support as well. > Can I play video games with this? In tethered mode, absolutely. In standalone mode, only very light games, but might be doable. > Can I stream a video feed from a real world camera (like with a raspberry pi) to the interior displays? Yes. In fact, we'll have AR passthrough by default, but nothing's stopping you from using different cameras. If you are not interested in the standalone capabilities, the headset without compute pack (i.e. tethered only) will be ~2k.

bradwood 5y ago

I have a couple of dumb questions: I use reading glasses. Would I need to wear them inside the headset? I dot lots of video conferencing. How would I appear in a zoom or msteams call with this on?

kanetw 5y ago
> I use reading glasses. Would I need to wear them inside the headset? Depends. We're planning a diopter adjustment (either as baseline or as a stretch goal), which might be sufficient. Alternately, there's enough space in the headset for glasses and it'll also be possible to get prescription lens inserts. > I dot lots of video conferencing. How would I appear in a zoom or msteams call with this on? You would appear like you're wearing a headset. Not much we can do about that, unfortunately.
mdrzn 5y ago
I do have to wear glasses with the Rift S, sometimes they get foggy tho.