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Gecko and servo are both not easily embeddable. Servo isn't a finished rendering engine yet and the browser I saw that could exclusively use servo was not comp

Gecko and servo are both not easily embeddable. Servo isn't a finished rendering engine yet and the browser I saw that could exclusively use servo was not compliant enough and since mozilla fired the servo team there is no certain future for it anymore. Projects that tried to make servo embeddable are all dead and gone (see https://github.com/paulrouget/servo-embedding-example https://github.com/paulrouget/servo-embedding-example for example) So yeah last time I tried to use gecko I failed and didn't try again (years ago) nobody is willing to do the work and mozilla seems to focus more on other stuff...

ramesh31 5y ago
>since mozilla fired the servo team there is no certain future for it anymore. When did that happen? It seems the managerial class has completed their takeover of Mozilla in the last few years. A real shame, since it basically cedes the entire web to Google.
- potiuper 5y ago
  2020,8,11 https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-lays-off-250-employees-while-it-refocuses-on-commercial-products/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-lays-off-250-employees...
- Melatonic 5y ago
  I really hope that does not end up being the case because Firefox is better than ever in my opinion
- YPPH 5y ago
  >it basically cedes the entire web to Google Refocusing on making Mozilla a viable entity without the need for cash splashes from Google is doing precisely the opposite. By diluting Google's financial control it ensures decision-making is both actually and ostensibly impartial. Gecko is still a perfectly functioning browser engine. It's far easier to keep Gecko up to date with modern web standards than reinventing the wheel. As nice as it would be to have a free and open source browser engine written in a memory safe language, I can't see there being a lot of money in it for Mozilla.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    In 2013 Mozilla spent $197M on software development and $30M on general/administrative. In 2020 it was $242M and $137M. The future-focused servo team was not the place to cut a couple million.
    - dotancohen 5y ago
      > In 2013 Mozilla spent $197M on software development and $30M on general/administrative. > In 2020 it was $242M and $137M. > The future-focused servo team was not the place to cut a couple million. Wasn't it just after 2013 when the replacement politically-correct CEO got quadruple the pay of the not-politically-correct engineer CEO?
      - smcl 5y ago
        That's a bit of an oversimplification, it's not like they had a choice between adequately funding R&D projects or Doing Political Correctness and chose the latter. Besides, remember that Eich was appointed in 2014 and had only a short stint at CEO, so I don't think you can attribute the 2013 figures to him I think all of us on HN are a bit saddened about Mozilla cutting back on the Rust and Servo teams, but political-correctness isn't the reason behind that. Let's not turn this into one of those discussions.
        leeroyjenkins11 5y ago
        They did give like a 10k grant for people to remove master/slave terminology from docs, so who knows what other PC work they were funding.
        ramesh31 5y ago
        >They did give like a 10k grant for people to remove master/slave terminology from docs, so who knows what other PC work they were funding. As a black person in tech, I can't tell you how much that whole debacle drives me insane. I never once in my life ever made the association between "master branch" and "slave master". But now every single time I pull a repo with a "main" branch instead of "master", I have to think about it and play along to assuage someone's white guilt. I absolutely refuse to ever make the switch.
- zucker42 5y ago
  It happened when Mozilla laid off 25% of their staff. Servo was probably part of that because it was more of a research project than part of the core business.
  - jppope 5y ago
    Isn't their core business just helping google avoid anti-trust issues by being the "other" browser?
    - NetOpWibby 5y ago
      OOF
    - Ygg2 5y ago
      Well. Can't step on Google's embedability then.
thayne 5y ago
That non embeddability is probably also a major reason why there isn't a significant node competitor based on spidermonkey. I get wanting to focus on Firefox as a whole, and that making components more independent can add quite a bit of work. But at the same time, if it was easier to use gecko in other browsers, and spidermonkey as JS environment outside the browser, I wonder if that would increase usage of and interest in the underlying technology.
- nyanpasu64 5y ago
  Interestingly there was a (never finished) Node fork based off SpiderMonkey (https://github.com/mozilla/spidernode https://github.com/mozilla/spidernode had to write a V8 shim on top of SpiderMonkey), and GNOME Shell and some GNOME apps are written on gjs which uses SpiderMonkey. I don't know if it's bad at embedding compared to V8, but it's definitely been done.
- sanxiyn 5y ago
  MongoDB embeds SpiderMonkey. Embeddability of SpiderMonkey is fine. It is Gecko that is the problem.
  - frankjr 5y ago
    Interestingly, MongoDB switched from SpiderMonkey to V8 only to switch back a few releases later. https://engineering.mongodb.com/post/code-generating-away-the-boilerplate-in-our-migration-back-to-spidermonkey https://engineering.mongodb.com/post/code-generating-away-th...
- mijoharas 5y ago
  We embedded spidermonkey as the JavaScript engine for the prime video application on games consoles and smart TVs when I was at Amazon (5 years ago+ not sure if they still use it). I've not embedded any other JS engines, but it wasn't too bad to embed.
  - mijoharas 5y ago
    Actually, I just realised what I said above was slightly inaccurate, we also built an application that embedded CEF, so I technically have embedded another js engine (that was 7+ years ago though, and my memory is spotty). CEF was also relatively straightforward to use. Both times we were embedding them in C++ applications.
vhab 5y ago
Early attempts at embedding browsers in games were based on Gecko as well. But it didn't become more widespread until a switch to Chromium was made, which made the entire process a lot simpler in both execution and distribution. And there hasn't really been a need to revisit Gecko.
- amelius 5y ago
  Wasn't Rust specifically invented to rewrite Gecko?
  - BlackLotus89 5y ago
    Rust was a personal project of Graydon Hoare. Mozilla jumped on the Rust train 3 years after its inception. https://web.archive.org/web/20160609195720/https://www.rust-lang.org/faq.html#is-this-project-controlled-by-mozilla https://web.archive.org/web/20160609195720/https://www.rust-...

ramesh31 5y ago

>since mozilla fired the servo team there is no certain future for it anymore. When did that happen? It seems the managerial class has completed their takeover of Mozilla in the last few years. A real shame, since it basically cedes the entire web to Google.

potiuper 5y ago
2020,8,11 https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-lays-off-250-employees-while-it-refocuses-on-commercial-products/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/mozilla-lays-off-250-employees...
Melatonic 5y ago
I really hope that does not end up being the case because Firefox is better than ever in my opinion
YPPH 5y ago
>it basically cedes the entire web to Google Refocusing on making Mozilla a viable entity without the need for cash splashes from Google is doing precisely the opposite. By diluting Google's financial control it ensures decision-making is both actually and ostensibly impartial. Gecko is still a perfectly functioning browser engine. It's far easier to keep Gecko up to date with modern web standards than reinventing the wheel. As nice as it would be to have a free and open source browser engine written in a memory safe language, I can't see there being a lot of money in it for Mozilla.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  In 2013 Mozilla spent $197M on software development and $30M on general/administrative. In 2020 it was $242M and $137M. The future-focused servo team was not the place to cut a couple million.
  - dotancohen 5y ago
    > In 2013 Mozilla spent $197M on software development and $30M on general/administrative. > In 2020 it was $242M and $137M. > The future-focused servo team was not the place to cut a couple million. Wasn't it just after 2013 when the replacement politically-correct CEO got quadruple the pay of the not-politically-correct engineer CEO?
    - smcl 5y ago
      That's a bit of an oversimplification, it's not like they had a choice between adequately funding R&D projects or Doing Political Correctness and chose the latter. Besides, remember that Eich was appointed in 2014 and had only a short stint at CEO, so I don't think you can attribute the 2013 figures to him I think all of us on HN are a bit saddened about Mozilla cutting back on the Rust and Servo teams, but political-correctness isn't the reason behind that. Let's not turn this into one of those discussions.
      - leeroyjenkins11 5y ago
        They did give like a 10k grant for people to remove master/slave terminology from docs, so who knows what other PC work they were funding.
        ramesh31 5y ago
        >They did give like a 10k grant for people to remove master/slave terminology from docs, so who knows what other PC work they were funding. As a black person in tech, I can't tell you how much that whole debacle drives me insane. I never once in my life ever made the association between "master branch" and "slave master". But now every single time I pull a repo with a "main" branch instead of "master", I have to think about it and play along to assuage someone's white guilt. I absolutely refuse to ever make the switch.
zucker42 5y ago
It happened when Mozilla laid off 25% of their staff. Servo was probably part of that because it was more of a research project than part of the core business.
- jppope 5y ago
  Isn't their core business just helping google avoid anti-trust issues by being the "other" browser?
  - NetOpWibby 5y ago
    OOF
  - Ygg2 5y ago
    Well. Can't step on Google's embedability then.

thayne 5y ago

That non embeddability is probably also a major reason why there isn't a significant node competitor based on spidermonkey. I get wanting to focus on Firefox as a whole, and that making components more independent can add quite a bit of work. But at the same time, if it was easier to use gecko in other browsers, and spidermonkey as JS environment outside the browser, I wonder if that would increase usage of and interest in the underlying technology.

nyanpasu64 5y ago
Interestingly there was a (never finished) Node fork based off SpiderMonkey (https://github.com/mozilla/spidernode https://github.com/mozilla/spidernode had to write a V8 shim on top of SpiderMonkey), and GNOME Shell and some GNOME apps are written on gjs which uses SpiderMonkey. I don't know if it's bad at embedding compared to V8, but it's definitely been done.
sanxiyn 5y ago
MongoDB embeds SpiderMonkey. Embeddability of SpiderMonkey is fine. It is Gecko that is the problem.
- frankjr 5y ago
  Interestingly, MongoDB switched from SpiderMonkey to V8 only to switch back a few releases later. https://engineering.mongodb.com/post/code-generating-away-the-boilerplate-in-our-migration-back-to-spidermonkey https://engineering.mongodb.com/post/code-generating-away-th...
mijoharas 5y ago
We embedded spidermonkey as the JavaScript engine for the prime video application on games consoles and smart TVs when I was at Amazon (5 years ago+ not sure if they still use it). I've not embedded any other JS engines, but it wasn't too bad to embed.
- mijoharas 5y ago
  Actually, I just realised what I said above was slightly inaccurate, we also built an application that embedded CEF, so I technically have embedded another js engine (that was 7+ years ago though, and my memory is spotty). CEF was also relatively straightforward to use. Both times we were embedding them in C++ applications.

vhab 5y ago

Early attempts at embedding browsers in games were based on Gecko as well. But it didn't become more widespread until a switch to Chromium was made, which made the entire process a lot simpler in both execution and distribution. And there hasn't really been a need to revisit Gecko.

amelius 5y ago
Wasn't Rust specifically invented to rewrite Gecko?
- BlackLotus89 5y ago
  Rust was a personal project of Graydon Hoare. Mozilla jumped on the Rust train 3 years after its inception. https://web.archive.org/web/20160609195720/https://www.rust-lang.org/faq.html#is-this-project-controlled-by-mozilla https://web.archive.org/web/20160609195720/https://www.rust-...