9 ms·

French Navy ATL2 MPA: Someone Just Lasered The Wrong Aircraft

100 points by willvarfar 5y ago

PaulHoule 5y ago
All the time in Southern California you see police helicopters circling around. There was that time I read this http://thepricker.synthasite.com/ http://thepricker.synthasite.com/ on the plane from JFK to LAX and was feeling paranoid and it seemed like one of the helicopters was following me around everywhere I went. It's natural that somebody would want to "reach out and touch" one of these annoying insects and periodically people laser police helicopters. It is always a bad idea because if you do that then they really will swoop down on you and take you away.
- exabrial 5y ago
  It's hard for me to feel sorry for people complaining about the government in California. They literally voted a massive tax machine into place that can't be undone and are surprised with [very predictable] results.
  - 0xffff2 5y ago
    Eh, some people where born and raised there. I don't really feel like I had any agency over the policies of the state of California despite it having been my home for the first 33 of my 34 years. I would have loved to stay in California if I felt like there was any chance of fixing policy in the state (and relatedly fixing affordability of living there).
anovikov 5y ago
Who are those people? Some actual/suspected foreign agents trying to interfere with the military air traffic/impact morale of the aircrews? Or mere hooligans?
- tasogare 5y ago
  Having read the news on a French website few days ago, suspicion goes to the usual suspects.
  - hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
    Do you have some specific group in mind? Someone needs to be either extremely stupid or demoralized to do such things.
    - lbriner 5y ago
      It's happened a load of times in the UK. I think often kids or young adults who haven't really thought things through and just think it is funny or "edgy" to their mates. The distance to target can give a false sense of safety to the perp. so interesting to see this article. I can't imagine the look on that person's face when the police knocked at the door!
- azalemeth 5y ago
  It's overwhelmingly likely to be hooligans. Pointing a (visible) laser pointer is at a pilot is a great way of pissing them off, and is dangerous, but fundamentally isn't a great military weapon. Many military nations have signed the Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons [1] which explicitly forbids attacks of this sort. If you were a rouge state, doing this with a far IR CO2 laser is (a) more likely to have a "military effect" (big bang) and (b) harder to trace and not visible (think Cuba syndrome). For what it's worth, this is a good application of military technology with no loss of life. Firing lasers at aeroplanes is a Bad Thing™. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Wea...
  - nradov 5y ago
    The Chinese military has multiple types of blinding laser weapons. https://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-4-blinding-laser-weapons-that-china-has-developed-2018-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-4-blinding-las...
tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago
Getting found and arrested is one of the better outcomes. There are cases where military aircraft pointed their lasers (likely invisible IR lasers) at photographers. It's unclear if this was intentional and what kind of laser (e.g. rangefinder or designator) it was, but the laser likely wasn't meant as a weapons system but still fried the camera, with visible scorch marks. I can't imagine eyes faring much better than the sensor if hit.
- dangerbird2 5y ago
  They'd fare poorly, but for different reasons. Digital cameras can be vulnerable to IR lasers because their sensors are sensitive to infrared light. Human retinas aren't sensitive to IR, which ironically makes IR lasers more dangerous than visible ones, since they don't trigger the blink reflex which would otherwise limit the damage to the eyes.
  - cjbgkagh 5y ago
    Wouldn’t the IR laser be flashed anyway? How much time would they need to be on?
  - zokier 5y ago
    If the sensor surface ends up with visible scorch marks then I don't think it would matter much if it was sensitive or not
    - xnyan 5y ago
      Whether or not the laser is in the visible spectrum matters quite a bit for it’s classifications/safety. According to IEC 60825–1 a laser from roughly over 1/2 a mW up to 5mW goes from class 2 to class 4 if it’s outside visible. A nearly 5mW laser could scorch many materials, given enough time.
- vilhelm_s 5y ago
  Cameras are very sensitive to lasers, there are lots of reported instances where a camera was damaged by e.g. a light show at a concert, even though it's presumably harmless to the human concert-goers[1]. So I don't think the fact that the camera was damaged would necessarily mean that it was dangerous to eyes. [1] https://petapixel.com/2021/08/02/sony-officially-warns-that-lasers-can-damage-its-cameras-sensors/ https://petapixel.com/2021/08/02/sony-officially-warns-that-...
aaron695 5y ago
quercusa 5y ago
I love this: > the “sky sailors” (as naval aircrews are called in the French Navy)
- stavros 5y ago
  You're going to like what "astronaut" means!
  - quercusa 5y ago
    That's funny - "astronaut" has always been a token - I'd never stopped to think where it came from.
hirundo 5y ago
> As for the initial detection of the laser, it was probably done by the pilot and co-pilot with their “mk1 eyeball” (i.e their own eyes). https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Mark_I_Eyeball https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Mark_I_Eyeball For some reason this feels like distinctively American humor. Non?
- drjasonharrison 5y ago
  Military humour?
  - xen2xen1 5y ago
    Second this sounds military, but probably American?
  - ARandomerDude 5y ago
    It may surprise you to discover that we military drones have emotions, goals, families, and hobbies. Occasionally we're also programmed to chuckle, snort, and guffaw to fool the unsuspecting into thinking we're actually real humans.
    - wolverine876 5y ago
      Speaking of senses of humor ... I think the OP merely asked a question, and wasn't questioning the feasibility of the phenomenon. Now 'Military Intelligence' is another thing entirely ... ;)
      - ARandomerDude 5y ago
        True story: I once had someone from England joke with me "military intelligence -- bit of an oxymoron!" I retorted "so is Great Britain" and we both had a good laugh. :)
    - ars 5y ago
      I'm picturing a drill sergeant doing drill on this and barking out orders: "Laugh"! "Chuckle"!
s5300 5y ago
From the article: “owning or using a laser of a class higher than 2 can lead to a sentence of 6 months of imprisonment, with a fine of 7,500 euros” I would argue this is a bit of an issue… obviously it’s not in the US where we have our Freedumb^tm, but still.
- Zealotux 5y ago
  Last year, during a stargazing event at a local observatory, the organizer used one of those and everyone was amazed to how powerful these things are, they seem like they could reach up to kilometers. He also explained he had special authorization for it and the fines for us if he bought one, I immediately could see why, could you elaborate on why you think the opposite?
  - alfalfasprout 5y ago
    Not OP but simply put, these lasers are fairly trivial to assemble anyways. And the vast, vast majority of users don't go lasering aircraft. Given how incredibly tedious most governmental processes are in the US, licensing could take an extremely long amount of time. Not to mention there's a privacy issue there-- why does the government need to know about my scientific curiosities?
    - xxpor 5y ago
      With lasers that powerful, it's not just about aircraft. If you pointed it at people intentionally you could blind them, which makes it a weapon. There's tons of stuff that has legitimate scientific uses that needs to be licenced for lots of reasons. For example, you need a licence to have iodine with concentrations above 2.2%.
    - FredPret 5y ago
      > trivial to assemble So is a house fire. Doesn’t make it OK to go around endangering the rest of the public
- remram 5y ago
  The place where carrying a drink on the street is forbidden?
daniel-cussen 5y ago
Good on them for making it a six month sentence, that's very fair. Shows good sense.
- throwaway0a5e 5y ago
  6mo in prison for dicking around with a laser pointer is right up there with sending the swat team to break up a bunch of teenagers partying. People routinely don't even get 6mo for crimes with a victim (on their first offense). For nuisance behavior like this a bunch of community service would teaches the lesson just as well and not waste as many tax dollars. Edit: FFS people, seriously? It's the aerial equivalent of some hooligan doing donuts in the middle of an intersection. Yes, you can always come up with some appeal to emotion crap but the fact of the matter is that while the behavior was reckless and negligent nobody was harmed and there was no victim, the only transgression was a temporary risk of harm. There's a very big difference between being a reckless nuisance and actually harming anyone or actually causing harm. Results matter. This is enshrined in statute all over the world (and in case law for common law jurisdictions). I hope all you people are smart enough to get out of jury duty.
  - trollied 5y ago
    It's not "dicking around with a laser pointer". Actions have consequences. Blinding pilots and causing a plane crash is not really going to be classed as "dicking around" is it?
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
  - qeternity 5y ago
    > For nuisance behavior like this This doesn't qualify as nuisance behavior. The risks are very real, particularly with civilian/LEO aircraft which don't have the training (and possible countermeasures) that a military pilot would.
  - spoonjim 5y ago
petermcneeley 5y ago
Does the punishment fit the crime here?
- dghughes 5y ago
  Exactly! It should be at least a year in jail if not five+. What was the best outcome the person expected? To crash an airplane full of people?
  - dzhiurgis 5y ago
    > crash an airplane full of people? A bit too dramatic, no? If you could actually crash a plane with a laser there would 1000s of such attempts. In reality they just had to turn around and maybe let autopilot land it. Same with drones - there hasn’t been a single accident yet people so overreact.
jjwiseman 5y ago
I get that it's kind of a funny, jokey thing that someone lased a military aircraft and it used a Wescam E/O sensor turret to track down the suspect, but this article gets a bit goofy talking about the "high target location accuracy and georeferencing" and "In this situation, the key for the crew is the coordination between the cockpit and the MX-20 operator in the back to “find and fix” the target. But this is something ATL2 crews routinely train for." The reality is that your average police helicopter is probably better equipped to do this: It has high-zoom visible light/thermal sensors, with georeferencing to get exact lat/lon. Additionally, it probably has something along the lines of the Churchill/Shotover ARS system[1][2] that gives operators an overlay with street names, addresses, etc. Even news helicopters in the U.S. are equipped with those. How pilots help police track down laser-strike suspects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1xdgE4xz-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1xdgE4xz-o This is a good demonstration of a police helicopter with high-res thermal imagery tracking down someone with a laser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaOhD2r-Y8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaOhD2r-Y8c [1] https://shotover.com/products/ars https://shotover.com/products/ars [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rumcjbVzzLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rumcjbVzzLE

100 points by willvarfar 5y ago

All the time in Southern California you see police helicopters circling around. There was that time I read this http://thepricker.synthasite.com/ http://thepricker.synthasite.com/ on the plane from JFK to LAX and was feeling paranoid and it seemed like one of the helicopters was following me around everywhere I went. It's natural that somebody would want to "reach out and touch" one of these annoying insects and periodically people laser police helicopters. It is always a bad idea because if you do that then they really will swoop down on you and take you away.

exabrial 5y ago
It's hard for me to feel sorry for people complaining about the government in California. They literally voted a massive tax machine into place that can't be undone and are surprised with [very predictable] results.
- 0xffff2 5y ago
  Eh, some people where born and raised there. I don't really feel like I had any agency over the policies of the state of California despite it having been my home for the first 33 of my 34 years. I would have loved to stay in California if I felt like there was any chance of fixing policy in the state (and relatedly fixing affordability of living there).

anovikov 5y ago

Who are those people? Some actual/suspected foreign agents trying to interfere with the military air traffic/impact morale of the aircrews? Or mere hooligans?

tasogare 5y ago
Having read the news on a French website few days ago, suspicion goes to the usual suspects.
- hdjjhhvvhga 5y ago
  Do you have some specific group in mind? Someone needs to be either extremely stupid or demoralized to do such things.
  - lbriner 5y ago
    It's happened a load of times in the UK. I think often kids or young adults who haven't really thought things through and just think it is funny or "edgy" to their mates. The distance to target can give a false sense of safety to the perp. so interesting to see this article. I can't imagine the look on that person's face when the police knocked at the door!
azalemeth 5y ago
It's overwhelmingly likely to be hooligans. Pointing a (visible) laser pointer is at a pilot is a great way of pissing them off, and is dangerous, but fundamentally isn't a great military weapon. Many military nations have signed the Protocol on Blinding Laser Weapons [1] which explicitly forbids attacks of this sort. If you were a rouge state, doing this with a far IR CO2 laser is (a) more likely to have a "military effect" (big bang) and (b) harder to trace and not visible (think Cuba syndrome). For what it's worth, this is a good application of military technology with no loss of life. Firing lasers at aeroplanes is a Bad Thing™. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Weapons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protocol_on_Blinding_Laser_Wea...
- nradov 5y ago
  The Chinese military has multiple types of blinding laser weapons. https://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-4-blinding-laser-weapons-that-china-has-developed-2018-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/these-are-the-4-blinding-las...

tgsovlerkhgsel 5y ago

Getting found and arrested is one of the better outcomes. There are cases where military aircraft pointed their lasers (likely invisible IR lasers) at photographers. It's unclear if this was intentional and what kind of laser (e.g. rangefinder or designator) it was, but the laser likely wasn't meant as a weapons system but still fried the camera, with visible scorch marks. I can't imagine eyes faring much better than the sensor if hit.

dangerbird2 5y ago
They'd fare poorly, but for different reasons. Digital cameras can be vulnerable to IR lasers because their sensors are sensitive to infrared light. Human retinas aren't sensitive to IR, which ironically makes IR lasers more dangerous than visible ones, since they don't trigger the blink reflex which would otherwise limit the damage to the eyes.
- cjbgkagh 5y ago
  Wouldn’t the IR laser be flashed anyway? How much time would they need to be on?
- zokier 5y ago
  If the sensor surface ends up with visible scorch marks then I don't think it would matter much if it was sensitive or not
  - xnyan 5y ago
    Whether or not the laser is in the visible spectrum matters quite a bit for it’s classifications/safety. According to IEC 60825–1 a laser from roughly over 1/2 a mW up to 5mW goes from class 2 to class 4 if it’s outside visible. A nearly 5mW laser could scorch many materials, given enough time.
vilhelm_s 5y ago
Cameras are very sensitive to lasers, there are lots of reported instances where a camera was damaged by e.g. a light show at a concert, even though it's presumably harmless to the human concert-goers[1]. So I don't think the fact that the camera was damaged would necessarily mean that it was dangerous to eyes. [1] https://petapixel.com/2021/08/02/sony-officially-warns-that-lasers-can-damage-its-cameras-sensors/ https://petapixel.com/2021/08/02/sony-officially-warns-that-...

aaron695 5y ago

quercusa 5y ago

I love this: > the “sky sailors” (as naval aircrews are called in the French Navy)

stavros 5y ago
You're going to like what "astronaut" means!
- quercusa 5y ago
  That's funny - "astronaut" has always been a token - I'd never stopped to think where it came from.

hirundo 5y ago

> As for the initial detection of the laser, it was probably done by the pilot and co-pilot with their “mk1 eyeball” (i.e their own eyes). https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Mark_I_Eyeball https://military-history.fandom.com/wiki/Mark_I_Eyeball For some reason this feels like distinctively American humor. Non?

drjasonharrison 5y ago
Military humour?
- xen2xen1 5y ago
  Second this sounds military, but probably American?
- ARandomerDude 5y ago
  It may surprise you to discover that we military drones have emotions, goals, families, and hobbies. Occasionally we're also programmed to chuckle, snort, and guffaw to fool the unsuspecting into thinking we're actually real humans.
  - wolverine876 5y ago
    Speaking of senses of humor ... I think the OP merely asked a question, and wasn't questioning the feasibility of the phenomenon. Now 'Military Intelligence' is another thing entirely ... ;)
    - ARandomerDude 5y ago
      True story: I once had someone from England joke with me "military intelligence -- bit of an oxymoron!" I retorted "so is Great Britain" and we both had a good laugh. :)
  - ars 5y ago
    I'm picturing a drill sergeant doing drill on this and barking out orders: "Laugh"! "Chuckle"!

s5300 5y ago

From the article: “owning or using a laser of a class higher than 2 can lead to a sentence of 6 months of imprisonment, with a fine of 7,500 euros” I would argue this is a bit of an issue… obviously it’s not in the US where we have our Freedumb^tm, but still.

Zealotux 5y ago
Last year, during a stargazing event at a local observatory, the organizer used one of those and everyone was amazed to how powerful these things are, they seem like they could reach up to kilometers. He also explained he had special authorization for it and the fines for us if he bought one, I immediately could see why, could you elaborate on why you think the opposite?
- alfalfasprout 5y ago
  Not OP but simply put, these lasers are fairly trivial to assemble anyways. And the vast, vast majority of users don't go lasering aircraft. Given how incredibly tedious most governmental processes are in the US, licensing could take an extremely long amount of time. Not to mention there's a privacy issue there-- why does the government need to know about my scientific curiosities?
  - xxpor 5y ago
    With lasers that powerful, it's not just about aircraft. If you pointed it at people intentionally you could blind them, which makes it a weapon. There's tons of stuff that has legitimate scientific uses that needs to be licenced for lots of reasons. For example, you need a licence to have iodine with concentrations above 2.2%.
  - FredPret 5y ago
    > trivial to assemble So is a house fire. Doesn’t make it OK to go around endangering the rest of the public
remram 5y ago
The place where carrying a drink on the street is forbidden?

daniel-cussen 5y ago

Good on them for making it a six month sentence, that's very fair. Shows good sense.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago
6mo in prison for dicking around with a laser pointer is right up there with sending the swat team to break up a bunch of teenagers partying. People routinely don't even get 6mo for crimes with a victim (on their first offense). For nuisance behavior like this a bunch of community service would teaches the lesson just as well and not waste as many tax dollars. Edit: FFS people, seriously? It's the aerial equivalent of some hooligan doing donuts in the middle of an intersection. Yes, you can always come up with some appeal to emotion crap but the fact of the matter is that while the behavior was reckless and negligent nobody was harmed and there was no victim, the only transgression was a temporary risk of harm. There's a very big difference between being a reckless nuisance and actually harming anyone or actually causing harm. Results matter. This is enshrined in statute all over the world (and in case law for common law jurisdictions). I hope all you people are smart enough to get out of jury duty.
- trollied 5y ago
  It's not "dicking around with a laser pointer". Actions have consequences. Blinding pilots and causing a plane crash is not really going to be classed as "dicking around" is it?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- qeternity 5y ago
  > For nuisance behavior like this This doesn't qualify as nuisance behavior. The risks are very real, particularly with civilian/LEO aircraft which don't have the training (and possible countermeasures) that a military pilot would.
- spoonjim 5y ago

petermcneeley 5y ago

Does the punishment fit the crime here?

dghughes 5y ago
Exactly! It should be at least a year in jail if not five+. What was the best outcome the person expected? To crash an airplane full of people?
- dzhiurgis 5y ago
  > crash an airplane full of people? A bit too dramatic, no? If you could actually crash a plane with a laser there would 1000s of such attempts. In reality they just had to turn around and maybe let autopilot land it. Same with drones - there hasn’t been a single accident yet people so overreact.

jjwiseman 5y ago

I get that it's kind of a funny, jokey thing that someone lased a military aircraft and it used a Wescam E/O sensor turret to track down the suspect, but this article gets a bit goofy talking about the "high target location accuracy and georeferencing" and "In this situation, the key for the crew is the coordination between the cockpit and the MX-20 operator in the back to “find and fix” the target. But this is something ATL2 crews routinely train for." The reality is that your average police helicopter is probably better equipped to do this: It has high-zoom visible light/thermal sensors, with georeferencing to get exact lat/lon. Additionally, it probably has something along the lines of the Churchill/Shotover ARS system[1][2] that gives operators an overlay with street names, addresses, etc. Even news helicopters in the U.S. are equipped with those. How pilots help police track down laser-strike suspects: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1xdgE4xz-o https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J1xdgE4xz-o This is a good demonstration of a police helicopter with high-res thermal imagery tracking down someone with a laser: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaOhD2r-Y8c https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SaOhD2r-Y8c [1] https://shotover.com/products/ars https://shotover.com/products/ars [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rumcjbVzzLE https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rumcjbVzzLE