14 ms·

Remember, companies will always look after themselves before anyone else. If Upwork is the middleman here providing a payment platform, then I'd expect them to

• beckman466 5y ago
  > I do wonder why the author is still on Upwork, their rating & exposure on there must be worth more to them than working several weeks for free why should they have to walk away? why even suggest such a strategy? UpWork already has a 10% market share. so if there were 1000 employers, 100 of them would be the same company. i'm not sure if you're aware of all the gigification and precaritization of digital labor going on? it's emerging as a frontal assault; a full-force attack on labor rights. "For all of its forward-looking ‘innovation’, there’s something suspiciously feudal about Silicon Valley. Tech royalty compete for dominance in platform wars [...] They hoard resources while showering key personnel with lavish gifts to ensure loyalty and peddling a compelling story about their right to rule. Meanwhile, the remaining workers, dependent on ‘gigs’ for their livelihood, are made to battle with each other for scraps." https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley https://tribunemag.co.uk/2019/01/abolish-silicon-valley
  • dahfizz 5y ago
    > why should they have to walk away? why even suggest such a strategy? Why would you want to continue doing business with someone who will unpredictability charge you large sums of money?
    • TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      That’s right. It can happen again. And again.
  • ianbutler 5y ago
    I think looking at devs contracting as "gigifying" is abusing that word and cheapening it for actual gig jobs which is an actual issue. Devs have been doing independent contracting since it was viable to do so and we can make a lot of money doing so. Upwork provides a platform to get contracts but it's not quite the same as the auto priced marketplaces like Uber, Lyft, Doordash etc. The last time I was looking at contracting I was negotiating $100+/hr contracts through Upwork. I had high leverage and negotiating power whereas gig jobs do not. I also had recourse for stuff like what happened here as long as I worked it into the contract I was signing, again not something you get in a gig job. For 12.5 grand my next words to Upwork would have been, "My lawyer" and if that didn't make any headway I'd be going after "Robin" in court too. These are not avenues that a typical gig job have either because the amount of money doesn't make it worth it or their contracts which are created by the company don't give them the option.
    • danenania 5y ago
      12.5k seems like a difficult amount to recover. Would the time/legal costs involved really justify it, considering that Upwork presumably employs many lawyers who will make it as painful as possible? I had a client stiff me for 6k once and it seemed like the only reasonable options were to go to small claims court and hope for a small portion of that or take the hit and move on, which is what I did :-/
      • hajile 5y ago
        They should file consecutive small claims cases (one for each charge). If they file concurrently, the lawyers will get them consolidated. If my entire market was based on getting my freelancers good jobs, I wouldn’t be trying to screw them over. This could have been an article about how Upwork is awesome and ate 12.5k for this dev. They could write about how they go to bat for their freelancers and are prosecuting the scammer. That story would still be upvoted and the free advertising would far exceed the cost. Instead, they bought tons of the worst kind of publicity (hitting peoples wallets) and their best outcome is now an apology that nobody will actually believe and eating the cost anyway.
• deleted 5y ago
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• ajross 5y ago
  > If Upwork is the middleman here providing a payment platform, then I'd expect them to swallow the cost of card fraud, not the freelancer. I don't understand why. This isn't how it works with other systems. If I get a ton of chargebacks on Paypal, they'll try to take the money back out of my bank account. And if they can't they'll grab it later the next time someone pays me (what Upwork is doing here). And if even that won't work, they'll just close my account. There's no scenario where PayPal is expected to continue working with me, because I'm now a fraud risk in their eyes. Ditto on Amazon: get a bunch of returns and you'll need to make that up or be cancelled. People are not really understanding the situation here. The OP's complaint isn't that Upwork is suing him or otherwise attempting to force payment. It's just that Upwork won't work with him anymore unless they get their losses covered. And... maybe that's not fair, but that's how life works on the internet of payments. Upwork's behavior is very typical here, and no one should be surprised.
  • freemint 5y ago
    The contract of sale is between you and the buyer. The contract for work is between UpWork and the contractor. Find the difference. eBay doesn't take a 30% cut for that reason.
    • ajross 5y ago
      Upwork isn't in violation of their contract. They paid the OP. The question is if they should be required to continue working with the OP under new contracts. And obviously nothing forces them to do so.
      • MereInterest 5y ago
        Upwork is asking for return of payment from the OP. From the article's title: "Upwork is asking me for a $12,500 refund". From later in the article, this is not an isolated incident: "A day after, a few other freelancers whom we were working with, started contacting me saying that Upwork is asking all of them for a refund as well." This is not the same as Upwork refusing to continue working with the freelancer. This is Upwork attempting to modify the terms for previous work done by the freelancer.
• dtob 5y ago
  Upwork is not the only middleman. There is deep network of middleman(s) going on Upwork which we have discovered in the span of last 8 months. We have also posted this on upwork https://community.upwork.com/t5/Coffee-Coconut-Break/Why-companies-are-not-hiring-IT-freelancers-directly-on/m-p/999111 https://community.upwork.com/t5/Coffee-Coconut-Break/Why-com... May be there is a need of new Upwork. Shall we start a new platform given the fact that remote work is going to be the future.
  • bogwog 5y ago
    > May be there is a need of new Upwork. Shall we start a new platform given the fact that remote work is going to be the future. Even if you make your own Upwork, how are you going to avoid those exact same problems?
    • dtob 5y ago
      [dead]
• wpietri 5y ago
  From the article, it sounds like like they do cover the costs of card fraud if the time is tracked using their tool. It's only when hours are manually entered that they don't. And honestly, I get that. It's very hard for Upwork to tell the difference between this and a conspiracy between freelancer and client to steal money from a credit card. Even so, my initial sympathies were with the freelancer. But then I looked at the main page of his website. he is a "Blockchain & AI Focused Tech and Investment Consultant" specializing in "investments related to Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, Fintech, Artificial Intelligence". It seems to me that a) somebody claiming this level of business sophistication should be walking the walk, and b) anybody working in the cryptocurrency space should vet clients very carefully given the high level of fraud and insanity in the space. So I think what I'd really like to see here is Upwork saying, "We're very sorry the client screwed us all over and we suggest you consider suing them to get paid. Have your lawyer contact us and we'll turn over any records you need to that end."
  • MereInterest 5y ago
    > It's very hard for Upwork to tell the difference between this and a conspiracy between freelancer and client to steal money from a credit card. I agree that it's hard to tell the difference, but do not believe that gives Upwork the authority to require a refund from the freelancer. The freelancer made an agreement with Upwork that, in exchange for payment from Upwork, the freelancer would perform work as directed by the client. By requiring a refund, Upwork is claiming that the freelancer either (a) did not perform work as directed or (b) is conspiring with the client to scam Upwork. In the case of (a), the client may give evidence against the freelancer. In the case of (b), the burden of proof lies with Upwork to prove that such a conspiracy existed, not on the freelancer to prove that no such conspiracy existed. Upwork has four ethical options going forward. First, Upwork may accept the cost of fraud as a part of doing business, and continue working with this freelancer. Second, Upwork may accept the cost of fraud as a part of doing business, but limit that cost by refusing to hire this freelancer in the future. Third, Upwork may recover payment from the client through the courts. Fourth, Upwork may accuse the freelancer of being part of the client's fraud, and may recover payment through the courts. Instead of taking any of these options, Upwork has chosen the unethical option to require payment from the freelancer without first establishing any culpability on the part of the freelancer. > he is a "Blockchain & AI Focused Tech and Investment Consultant" specializing in "investments related to Blockchain, Cryptocurrency, Fintech, Artificial Intelligence". It seems to me that a) somebody claiming this level of business sophistication should be walking the walk, and b) anybody working in the cryptocurrency space should vet clients very carefully given the high level of fraud and insanity in the space. I agree, considering Blockchain and Cryptocurrency as realms of unmitigated fraud whose entire existence consist of nested pyramid schemes. However, I do not think that establishing a precedent allowing abuse of a power differential in somebody's livelihood is acceptable, even when the victim is part of the larger Blockchain/Cryptocurrency scheme. > So I think what I'd really like to see here is Upwork saying, "We're very sorry the client screwed us all over and we suggest you consider suing them to get paid. Have your lawyer contact us and we'll turn over any records you need to that end." Except that the freelancer's agreement is with Upwork. The client screwed over Upwork. A bank is responsible for verifying the identity of somebody accessing an account, and may not pass on the costs to the account holder. Upwork is responsible for verifying the identity of a client's payment, and may not pass on the costs to the freelancer.
• danlugo92 5y ago
  Reminder to anyone reading this: NEVER EVER give access to your bank account to ANYONE. e.g. INTUIT (They personally scammmed me out of a month's worth of subscription that I never used). Do NOT give your bank account to Paypal, they WILL withdraw money if they have any excuse. You can however, give all of these your credit card, as any wrongdoing can be ammended via a Chargeback, but there's no chargeback for direct-to-bank withdrawals.
  • londons_explore 5y ago
    This varies country to country. In the UK, direct bank withdrawals (via Direct Debit) are guaranteed forever. Ie. in 30 years time you can reverse a transaction from a company and get all the money instantly, even if the company no longer exists.
    • danlugo92 5y ago
      My bank doesn't even offer a dispute option in direct debit transactions.
      • londons_explore 5y ago
        you have to call them.
        • jdkenney 5y ago
          This bank and banking system specific. My bank (Canada) doesn’t offer any dispute option either.
    • brnt 5y ago
      How does it work if the account is closed, company out of business etc? Does the bank eat the amount? if so, seems easy to abuse.
      • londons_explore 5y ago
• moduspol 5y ago
  > If Upwork is the middleman here providing a payment platform, then I'd expect them to swallow the cost of card fraud, not the freelancer. Yes. To me, it's whoever's in the best position to reduce fraud that should be responsible. It's Upwork who can verify payer details, implement identity verification, require back-up payment methods, etc. If Upwork isn't the primary entity feeling the pain when a stolen credit card is used, then they're not as incentivized to address it. And there's nothing the freelancer can realistically do, aside from maybe limit risk by breaking the project up into smaller costs.
  • heavyset_go 5y ago
    Upwork does almost no verification of clients, and they won't because it would add friction to the onboarding process. For freelancers, however, they have extensive vetting processes.
• ma2rten 5y ago
  If the author is in the same country as the client then they should also be taking legal action to reclaim the money But they still seem to be on good terms with the client. If I understand correctly the problem is that they insist on getting paid through upwork: "When things were not making sense, I still followed the rules. I could’ve easily gotten paid from Robin outside of Upwork. Heck, he was physically in front of me. "
  • notahacker 5y ago
    I think the OP's point in that sentence is that he was being a good Upwork customer and expects Upwork to hold up their spirit of the bargain, not that he hasn't realised that "Robin" isn't a scammer would have paid him with stolen money (which his own bank might have returned if charged back, but not if it was cash...) and isn't the guy who still owes Upwork money for the work. The stuff about being on good terms is all in the past, when he trusts Robin. The key bit is "Let me translate this. Robin has been using someone else’s credit card for two years, and this other person realized that money was being withdrawn in the previous two years on a platform called Upwork without his consent." You'd have to be a pretty massive idiot to still trust someone after realising that...
  • x0x0 5y ago
    > If I understand correctly the problem is that they insist on getting paid through upwork Yes, because this is reeks of scam. If you're in the same country and meeting physically... why on earth are you transacting via Upwork? Upwork was collecting 10-20% of the net payments. There's no reason to do that if you're physically meeting.
    • nickphx 5y ago
      Because those are Upworks terms?
      • Ansil849 5y ago
        The point is that after the initial few contracts, the two parties could have very easily conducted all further business and contracts without the middleman, Upwork.
• Rd6n6 5y ago
  There are a lot of articles out there about how the contracts the freelancing platforms impose on contractors are bad. Maybe they dont leave freelancers with a lot of options in these cases?
• amelius 5y ago
  > If Upwork is the middleman here providing a payment platform, then I'd expect them to swallow the cost of card fraud Of course! How else would you be able to protect yourself if someone else is handling the payments?
• skzv 5y ago
  My friend got scammed in a similar way via CashApp. He sold something a few weeks ago and received payment via CashApp. Two days ago he's informed that the customer disputed the charge through his bank, and CashApp is taking the money back from my friend. CashApp says there is nothing they can do, they are simply the middleman.
  • kingcharles 5y ago
    That's funny. I paid for something using my CashApp debit card and the merchant took the money and never delivered it and CashApp say there is nothing they can do there either. I just got banned from Twitter for posting the contact details of their VPs :|
  • TMWNN 5y ago
    My understanding is that this is not possible in Venmo and Zelle; their transactions are permanent.
• ricardobayes 5y ago
  They can't just walk, Upwork will go after them. 12k is an amount that is worth sending at least a few strongly worded legaleze letters by UW's legal dept. Essentially in this situation OP just owes 12k to Upwork. As much as it's a shitty situation, it's a debt. You can't just walk.
• deleted 5y ago
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