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Autistic people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality

183 points by misotaur 5y ago

0xbadcafebee 5y ago
That first sentence is a doozy. Had to fight my biases to keep reading...
gmfawcett 5y ago
Doesn't everybody challenge these, pretty much? Any artificial "person-in-the-street" construct is unlikely to represent a living, breathing person.
- lostcolony 5y ago
  We know that people aren't perfectly rational. The point of the article is that autistic people tend to be more rational on average than neurotypicals. The emotional weight that affects neurotypicals and causes them to fall into biases more often (on average) doesn't apply as often (on average); an autistic person will be less likely to behave differently when confronted with "80% fat free" vs "20% fat", to borrow an example for the article.
  - gmfawcett 5y ago
    Supposing autistic people are more rational than the neurotypical: then couldn't we generalize the thesis to, "highly rational people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality"? I don't think the research claimed that people with autism have rationality-enhancing properties that are unavailable to people who don't. For example, "reduced use of stereotypes" applies to some otherwise-neurotypical people -- we would probably call these people "highly rational". Put another way, I suppose I'm saying that there may be a second group -- "highly rational people" -- that intersects and overlaps significantly with "people with autism", and we could be making statements about one group that should be attributed to the other. (I'm not trying to touch any nerves here. I'm putting aside the fact that the article is a positive piece about people with autism and makes some enlightening points. I'm just claiming that the "challenging preconceived ideas" may be mostly true, but also too narrow and possibly misleading.)
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - empressplay 5y ago
    That's likely because (many) autistic people (myself included) have to learn to function with emotional regulation issues largely by second-guessing them. So the 'gut feeling' a neurotypical would tend to go with gets overridden by subsequent analysis in the autistic individual, in their attempt to 'calm the storm'. In my case, this causes me to 'throw out' most political hyperbole. Unfortunately, if the shit really does hit the fan, this process can lead to validation of the emotions and an 'autistic meltdown'. So it's a double-edged sword, to be sure
    - lostcolony 5y ago
      Could be; was just pointing out that the parent maybe wasn't really speaking to the point of the article. Still, I find stuff like this super interesting. It helps dislodge the narrative that autism is a problem or disease, something that needs 'fixing', rather than just being different.
akvadrako 5y ago
It takes a while to get to the point, but this is what the page is about: As we explained in a recent review paper, researchers have repeatedly found evidence that Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. Specifically, many Autistic people seem to be less susceptible to cognitive biases, and therefore better able to make judgments and reach decisions in a more traditionally ‘rational’ manner. Interesting if true; it could indicate that at least mild Autism is a beneficial adaptation. Though those biases probably came about for good reasons, it could be they've become obsolete and are no longer worth it.
- bopbeepboop 5y ago
  Isn’t this why there’s a correlation between Asperger’s and engineers? The same kind of logical, exacting thinking necessary for mastery of physical systems is in tension with the kinds of thinking used in social games. Some brains are better at one than the other — and we have disorders at both extremes. I’ve always wondered if autism and dyscalclia are something of “polar opposites”.
  - AussieWog93 5y ago
    >I’ve always wondered if autism and dyscalclia are something of “polar opposites”. I don't think they are. Plenty of autistic people are bad at maths (you just don't meet these people in engineering circles!), and plenty of "social butterflies" are good at it.
  - georgestephanis 5y ago
    Yes hi, "aspergers" is an unfortunate nomenclature and many autistic folks (myself included) strongly resent it. It was named after a Nazi doctor (Hans Asperger) and used to classify autistic folks into "useful" and "non-useful" people -- as Nazis and Eugenicists are known to do. When you think of it, if you could refer to folks on the spectrum as such, without referencing the outdated nomenclature (the DSM-5 replaced it for diagnostics, now everything falls under the Autism Spectrum, rather than viewing the "higher functioning" folks as having a distinct diagnosis) Thanks!
pkoird 5y ago
> Imagine you have bought two non-refundable tickets to different trips, one much more costly. You are then told that you must cancel one of them. In this case, many people will cancel the cheaper trip regardless of which one they would prefer to go on – and even though they will have spent the same amount of money either way. I think a better example to sunken cost bias could be found than this one as people usually pay more for trips that they prefer more in the first place.
- hwbehrens 5y ago
  It also ignores that if you booked a trip to a place, you likely did so because you want to go to that place. Thus, if you were forced to cancel your trip due to a conflict, it is implicitly more likely that you would book a trip there again in the future - a rain check, essentially. If the question was "Which of these trips would you like to pay for twice?", then it's immediately obvious that the cheaper trip should be cancelled.
- yupper32 5y ago
  This is a strange one. I'd cancel the cheaper one because it'll be easier to go on that cheaper trip at a later date than the more expensive one. Choosing the one you'd rather go on right now shows a lack of planning. It seems less rational to me.
  - flayx 5y ago
    Precisely. It is fully rational to cancel the cheaper trip. Many autistic persons would say that the entire question is stupid.
    - compressedgas 5y ago
      Because no rationale was given for why.
  - seba_dos1 5y ago
    > it'll be easier to go on that cheaper trip at a later date than the more expensive one How can you infer that just from its price though? :P
fdgsdfogijq 5y ago
Basically theres a fundamental trade off between the ebb and flow of social interaction and cohesion, which follows predefined and implicit rules, and then the autistic ability to actually be objective/think rationally without being clouded by norms
- solarmist 5y ago
  Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it as well. Everyone says they want rationality and unbiased thinking, but don't really care if it takes extra effort or time. This threw me for years. When I would point out gaps or mention hidden assumptions I would get dismissed almost every time. Like just because you have data to back up your point/idea doesn't mean your point is right. That's NOT what data-driven actually means. No, what people want is numbers to add to make a story seem more trustworthy. Once I started treating "rational" or "data-driven" like a buzz word everything made sense.
mherrmann 5y ago
My girlfriend was diagnosed with autism 3 weeks ago and we had a related conversation just today. She said she feels more open-minded / less biased than other people. I thought it was because her different experiences were invalidated by society throughout her life. But this makes it sound like there's more to it. Very interesting.
- bayesianbot 5y ago
  This might sound strange but I'm autistic and first time I really noticed something was "wrong" was when I started school, met new people and noticed that all the adults and children think in a really different way - in my mind they couldn't explain their actions or thoughts logically, and it made no sense to me why they were fine with it. Why were they happy to have a conversation where I found a gaping hole in their logic and.. just go on with their lives without exploring it further? I always had a meltdown if I was asked to do something that could not be logically explained to me, and questioned my parents and peers for day or weeks if I learned some things about the world that nobody could completely explain. It felt like I was accidentally born on wrong planet with different species with completely different thought processes that I couldn't understand.
  - mherrmann 5y ago
    It's very interesting. Some of the things my girlfriend described really highlight how weird we neurotypicals are and act. From many social norms and conventions to empathy, a lot of what we do only seems to make sense in the historic or evolutionary context, but not actually in the moment when you think about it. It really does feel like different species. I have no data but suspect people on the spectrum should get along great with other people on the spectrum; You just have the disadvantage that you are in the minority and seem to not be well-understood by society.
  - solarmist 5y ago
    I never really had the "meltdowns" that I hear about autistic people, unless particularly bad temper tantrums when I was 2-5 years old count, but I also agonized about how little sense "social rules" made. I would spend a lot of time pondering and thinking about these things. So I completely get this and empathize.
Puts 5y ago
The ironic part is that the non-autistic people wont trust autistic peoples valuable non-biased opinions because of their bias against non-conforming people.
- rajin444 5y ago
  I had an autistic coworker who could not understand using pronouns outside of the already established ones (he/she). She was otherwise very “progressive” but didn’t consider herself such. It had to do with he/she mapping to (99% of the time) defined biological features. It was a very awkward lunch.
  - whaaswijk 5y ago
    I think many people are reluctant to use non-traditional pronouns. I’m not trying to condemn or condone that, just pointing out that to me this example seems unrelated to autism.
  - nicoburns 5y ago
    In fairness, using different pronouns for different genders doesn't make a lot of sense in the first place.
    - guerrilla 5y ago
      It reduces ambiguity, increasing narrowing specificity by half the room on average. I suspect that efficiency trade off showed up in so many unrelated languages because it was useful. It didn't get more specific because that wasn't useful enough. Languages evolve too.
    - readthenotes1 5y ago
      My preferred pronoun is "the majestic one with no time for the nonsense of gendered pronouns". It cannot be combined in a plural; I stand alone.
      - giraffe_lady 5y ago
emptybottle 5y ago
It's good to see appreciation of different neurotypes for their strengths. Many people with ASD put a lot of time and effort into learning and altering their natural behavior in order to better understand and interact in a way that is perceived as normal by nerutotypical people. I'm hopeful the inverse will happen more over time as well, neurotypicals putting effort into learning and adjusting their own behavior to better interact with and understand autistic people. Making it normal to include input from all neurotypes (as opposed to excluding) is a great step forwards.
- jajag 5y ago
  ^^^ this
- BizarroLand 5y ago
  One of my best friends is autistic. He's definitely a weirdo at times (I mean that in a positive way, for instance he likes old movies and watches them constantly, but when he says a movie is good he has never been wrong) but he's a good guy, would never betray anyone and is always social and fun to be around as long as it is inside of his comfort zone.
  - zepto 5y ago
    > for instance he likes old movies and watches them constantly, but when he says a movie is good he has never been wrong) but he's a good guy You make it sound as if liking old movies should be cause for suspicion!
    - throwawaygh 5y ago
      Nah. The "but" differentiates a positive trait from a neutral trait, and the parenthetical phrase clarifies that the neutral trait isn't necessarily bad.
      - zepto 5y ago
        Yes. The fact that you have to qualify that the ‘neutral’ trait isn’t ‘necessarily’ bad implies that you think people might think it was bad. You wouldn’t need to qualify it otherwise.
paganel 5y ago
I've stopped reading at the Greta Thunberg cameo, up to that point I was still hoping for a decent article.
- _ea1k 5y ago
  That doesn't sound like a very rational choice.
  - paganel 5y ago
    It seems very rational to me to stop reading once I see how the author tries to instrumentalize the medical condition of a "famous" child.
serverlessmom 5y ago
It is very good to see more positive recognition for people that are neurodivergent including how we actually improve and fit into society as well. I would argue that the greatest issue with neurotypical society over all is that it tends to value a singular mode of thinking and being as somehow inherently more valuable than others, failing to recognize that in our many differences we are actually stronger as a whole.
dhosek 5y ago
One thing worth noting about the spectrum in autistic spectrum disorder is that it does not mean what many people assume it does, that it's referring to a range of severity with mild on one end and severe on the other. Rather it's more a spectrum as in a spectrum of colors: there are a number of traits to autism, not all of which might be present in a person diagnosed with ASD so single-criteria tests like identify the emotions in these photographs, for example, don't really work as good diagnostic tools. This article found with a quick Google search seems to sum up some of this reasonably well: https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org/what-is-meant-by-the-autism-spectrum/ https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org/what-is-meant-by-...
cwkoss 5y ago
In psychology undergrad, I read about a study of anorexic people: they had people rate their own attractiveness, and had strangers rate their attractiveness. Normal population consistently rated themselves higher in attractiveness than strangers did on average. However, anorexic's self ratings were much closer to stranger-ratings. (May not be remembering this correctly and I assume this study was done in the 90s when thinness was more in fashion - wouldn't be surprised if it didn't replicate if done today) See also: dunning kruger effect. My takeaway is that the 'normal' human brain lies to itself in many ways which protect the ego. Some disorders are caused not by disconnection from reality, but rather too accurate a view of reality. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many autistic traits that have a similar origin: the brains socio-protective instinctual lies are failing, and autistic people are actually acting more rationally.
- solarmist 5y ago
  The version of this I heard was about pessimism or depression and other people's perceptions of their attractiveness. It may have been the same study or one inspired by the study you mentioned, but I've heard things like this before too.
- guerrilla 5y ago
  > Some disorders are caused not by disconnection from reality, but rather too accurate a view of reality. Yeah, I've heard this about depression. [1] > Depressive realism is the hypothesis developed by Lauren Alloy and Lyn Yvonne Abramson that depressed individuals make more realistic inferences than non-depressed individuals. Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs, depressive realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals' appraisals are positively biased. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism
justicezyx 5y ago
The rational man as a concept is still used nowadays as often as it is, that itself is a proof that the concept is as broken as it can be. The modern consumer economy is based on irrationality.
- NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
  I wouldn't say it's based on irrationality, but based on other things that aren't necessarily rational or irrational. Just manipulation of our rational+emotional brain sitting on top of our monkey brain which is sitting on top of our lizard brains.
wombatmobile 5y ago
ADHD people have a different calculus that affects their project management. NonA-DHD typically respond to deadlines with increased urgency, commitment, and re-factoring assessments. ADHD may respond to deadlines by abandoning tasks and starting new extraneous tasks. Is that rational? It’s what happens, and since it is such a dramatic and consequential difference, it warrants a reconsideration of the meaning of the term “rational”, and it’s limitations. ADHD isn’t an isolated minority. It’s a transient condition in a significant number of people, prevalent enough in the population to make economic text books about monolithic “rationality” unfit for purpose.
- tux3 5y ago
  Rationality isn't whatever people do. Biases are whatever people don't do optimally that they would, if they were perfectly rational. Various subgroups can have different responses, but rationality is its own ideal, regardless of what people do.
  - zwkrt 5y ago
    In what sense!? From what god is Rationalty (TM) handed down? Which parts of society are Rational? Which of the sentences of mine is Rational? Ostensibly Rational just means “with reasons” or “calculated” but there are many different calculuses under which one could operate. I agree with GP. Economic rational agents are supposed to do things like maximize utility or minimize loss. I know that I for one do things like “anticipate others’ needs”, “feel ambivalent about eating the entire box of donuts”, and “take a day off work to practice origami”, and I’m not sure how those actions fit into the economic model.
    - PeterisP 5y ago
      It's not necessary to pull economics into the picture - the general definition is that a rational choice is making the choice that best furthers your goals. If you make suboptimal choices (with respect to your own goals - sacrificing "socially desirable" goals in order to achieve some desire of your own isn't irrational), that's an irrational choice, and people often do that for various reasons. We're not horribly bad at achieving our goals, but we're also nowhere near perfect. Some types of suboptimal choices are systematic, predictable deviations which we can study as biases.
readthenotes1 5y ago
"Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. (We use identity-first language, eg, ‘Autistic people’, as it is preferred by many people on the autism spectrum.)" Hmmm. What are they implying by that parenthetical comment placement?
- zwkrt 5y ago
  In psychology and social services there is a push to use terms like “person with Autism” or “person with autistic traits” as opposed to “autistic person” as many people seem to enjoy not being primarily labeled by something that only makes up a small part of their personality and an even smaller part of their personhood. Think of it like primitive vs value types in Java. ‘int a = 7; Integer b = 7’ “a” is 7, but “b” just has a pointer to 7. —- I guess autistic people must not mind or even prefer to identify in this way, but it can really help in a therapeutic setting not to call someone “a borderline woman” or “a psychotic woman” because for better or worse labeling someone as mentally unhealthy is colloquially tantamount to an insult.
  - zepto 5y ago
    The point here is that autistic people who prefer this term don’t think it has anything to do with mental health or disease, and do think it’s a fundamental aspect of who they are, which can’t be separated.
- zozbot234 5y ago
  There's quite a bit of politicking in the autism movement over whether one should preferentially say 'people with autism' or 'autistic people'. The former (formally called "person-first language") is occasionally objected to because it frames 'autism' as a disease (compare 'people with cancer') as opposed to a sort of plausibly-benign divergence in cognition. As one might expect with such matters, there are reasonable arguments for either choice.
phkahler 5y ago
>> Imagine you have bought two non-refundable tickets to different trips, one much more costly. You are then told that you must cancel one of them. In this case, many people will cancel the cheaper trip regardless of which one they would prefer to go on – and even though they will have spent the same amount of money either way. Autistic individuals appear to be more likely to make a choice based on their personal preference rather than on an irrelevant cost. This is missing a hige piece of context. What about the possibility that you may later decide to repurchase whichever trip you decline now? My future cost is reduced by canceling the cheaper trip now. If both are in the realm of "I'd like to go there someday" and close in appeal, it is more rational to take the more expensive one. If we don't consider that larger (possible) context then obviously take the one you prefer the most.
Animats 5y ago
So "Autistic" is capitalized now? First names of elements started being capitalized. Then there was the "Black" thing, followed by the "White" thing. We seem to be headed back to the 1700s, when Important Words were capitalized.
- Alekhine 5y ago
  It's the beginning of the sentence.
  - trentgreene 5y ago
    I think op is referring to the article, which uses "Autistic" no matter sentence position. Strangely, they use "non-autistic", though I'm unsure of any hardcore style rules about this

183 points by misotaur 5y ago

That first sentence is a doozy. Had to fight my biases to keep reading...

Doesn't everybody challenge these, pretty much? Any artificial "person-in-the-street" construct is unlikely to represent a living, breathing person.

lostcolony 5y ago
We know that people aren't perfectly rational. The point of the article is that autistic people tend to be more rational on average than neurotypicals. The emotional weight that affects neurotypicals and causes them to fall into biases more often (on average) doesn't apply as often (on average); an autistic person will be less likely to behave differently when confronted with "80% fat free" vs "20% fat", to borrow an example for the article.
- gmfawcett 5y ago
  Supposing autistic people are more rational than the neurotypical: then couldn't we generalize the thesis to, "highly rational people challenge preconceived ideas about rationality"? I don't think the research claimed that people with autism have rationality-enhancing properties that are unavailable to people who don't. For example, "reduced use of stereotypes" applies to some otherwise-neurotypical people -- we would probably call these people "highly rational". Put another way, I suppose I'm saying that there may be a second group -- "highly rational people" -- that intersects and overlaps significantly with "people with autism", and we could be making statements about one group that should be attributed to the other. (I'm not trying to touch any nerves here. I'm putting aside the fact that the article is a positive piece about people with autism and makes some enlightening points. I'm just claiming that the "challenging preconceived ideas" may be mostly true, but also too narrow and possibly misleading.)
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- empressplay 5y ago
  That's likely because (many) autistic people (myself included) have to learn to function with emotional regulation issues largely by second-guessing them. So the 'gut feeling' a neurotypical would tend to go with gets overridden by subsequent analysis in the autistic individual, in their attempt to 'calm the storm'. In my case, this causes me to 'throw out' most political hyperbole. Unfortunately, if the shit really does hit the fan, this process can lead to validation of the emotions and an 'autistic meltdown'. So it's a double-edged sword, to be sure
  - lostcolony 5y ago
    Could be; was just pointing out that the parent maybe wasn't really speaking to the point of the article. Still, I find stuff like this super interesting. It helps dislodge the narrative that autism is a problem or disease, something that needs 'fixing', rather than just being different.

akvadrako 5y ago

It takes a while to get to the point, but this is what the page is about: As we explained in a recent review paper, researchers have repeatedly found evidence that Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. Specifically, many Autistic people seem to be less susceptible to cognitive biases, and therefore better able to make judgments and reach decisions in a more traditionally ‘rational’ manner. Interesting if true; it could indicate that at least mild Autism is a beneficial adaptation. Though those biases probably came about for good reasons, it could be they've become obsolete and are no longer worth it.

bopbeepboop 5y ago
Isn’t this why there’s a correlation between Asperger’s and engineers? The same kind of logical, exacting thinking necessary for mastery of physical systems is in tension with the kinds of thinking used in social games. Some brains are better at one than the other — and we have disorders at both extremes. I’ve always wondered if autism and dyscalclia are something of “polar opposites”.
- AussieWog93 5y ago
  >I’ve always wondered if autism and dyscalclia are something of “polar opposites”. I don't think they are. Plenty of autistic people are bad at maths (you just don't meet these people in engineering circles!), and plenty of "social butterflies" are good at it.
- georgestephanis 5y ago
  Yes hi, "aspergers" is an unfortunate nomenclature and many autistic folks (myself included) strongly resent it. It was named after a Nazi doctor (Hans Asperger) and used to classify autistic folks into "useful" and "non-useful" people -- as Nazis and Eugenicists are known to do. When you think of it, if you could refer to folks on the spectrum as such, without referencing the outdated nomenclature (the DSM-5 replaced it for diagnostics, now everything falls under the Autism Spectrum, rather than viewing the "higher functioning" folks as having a distinct diagnosis) Thanks!

pkoird 5y ago

> Imagine you have bought two non-refundable tickets to different trips, one much more costly. You are then told that you must cancel one of them. In this case, many people will cancel the cheaper trip regardless of which one they would prefer to go on – and even though they will have spent the same amount of money either way. I think a better example to sunken cost bias could be found than this one as people usually pay more for trips that they prefer more in the first place.

hwbehrens 5y ago
It also ignores that if you booked a trip to a place, you likely did so because you want to go to that place. Thus, if you were forced to cancel your trip due to a conflict, it is implicitly more likely that you would book a trip there again in the future - a rain check, essentially. If the question was "Which of these trips would you like to pay for twice?", then it's immediately obvious that the cheaper trip should be cancelled.
yupper32 5y ago
This is a strange one. I'd cancel the cheaper one because it'll be easier to go on that cheaper trip at a later date than the more expensive one. Choosing the one you'd rather go on right now shows a lack of planning. It seems less rational to me.
- flayx 5y ago
  Precisely. It is fully rational to cancel the cheaper trip. Many autistic persons would say that the entire question is stupid.
  - compressedgas 5y ago
    Because no rationale was given for why.
- seba_dos1 5y ago
  > it'll be easier to go on that cheaper trip at a later date than the more expensive one How can you infer that just from its price though? :P

fdgsdfogijq 5y ago

Basically theres a fundamental trade off between the ebb and flow of social interaction and cohesion, which follows predefined and implicit rules, and then the autistic ability to actually be objective/think rationally without being clouded by norms

solarmist 5y ago
Yeah, that's pretty much my take on it as well. Everyone says they want rationality and unbiased thinking, but don't really care if it takes extra effort or time. This threw me for years. When I would point out gaps or mention hidden assumptions I would get dismissed almost every time. Like just because you have data to back up your point/idea doesn't mean your point is right. That's NOT what data-driven actually means. No, what people want is numbers to add to make a story seem more trustworthy. Once I started treating "rational" or "data-driven" like a buzz word everything made sense.

mherrmann 5y ago

My girlfriend was diagnosed with autism 3 weeks ago and we had a related conversation just today. She said she feels more open-minded / less biased than other people. I thought it was because her different experiences were invalidated by society throughout her life. But this makes it sound like there's more to it. Very interesting.

bayesianbot 5y ago
This might sound strange but I'm autistic and first time I really noticed something was "wrong" was when I started school, met new people and noticed that all the adults and children think in a really different way - in my mind they couldn't explain their actions or thoughts logically, and it made no sense to me why they were fine with it. Why were they happy to have a conversation where I found a gaping hole in their logic and.. just go on with their lives without exploring it further? I always had a meltdown if I was asked to do something that could not be logically explained to me, and questioned my parents and peers for day or weeks if I learned some things about the world that nobody could completely explain. It felt like I was accidentally born on wrong planet with different species with completely different thought processes that I couldn't understand.
- mherrmann 5y ago
  It's very interesting. Some of the things my girlfriend described really highlight how weird we neurotypicals are and act. From many social norms and conventions to empathy, a lot of what we do only seems to make sense in the historic or evolutionary context, but not actually in the moment when you think about it. It really does feel like different species. I have no data but suspect people on the spectrum should get along great with other people on the spectrum; You just have the disadvantage that you are in the minority and seem to not be well-understood by society.
- solarmist 5y ago
  I never really had the "meltdowns" that I hear about autistic people, unless particularly bad temper tantrums when I was 2-5 years old count, but I also agonized about how little sense "social rules" made. I would spend a lot of time pondering and thinking about these things. So I completely get this and empathize.

Puts 5y ago

The ironic part is that the non-autistic people wont trust autistic peoples valuable non-biased opinions because of their bias against non-conforming people.

rajin444 5y ago
I had an autistic coworker who could not understand using pronouns outside of the already established ones (he/she). She was otherwise very “progressive” but didn’t consider herself such. It had to do with he/she mapping to (99% of the time) defined biological features. It was a very awkward lunch.
- whaaswijk 5y ago
  I think many people are reluctant to use non-traditional pronouns. I’m not trying to condemn or condone that, just pointing out that to me this example seems unrelated to autism.
- nicoburns 5y ago
  In fairness, using different pronouns for different genders doesn't make a lot of sense in the first place.
  - guerrilla 5y ago
    It reduces ambiguity, increasing narrowing specificity by half the room on average. I suspect that efficiency trade off showed up in so many unrelated languages because it was useful. It didn't get more specific because that wasn't useful enough. Languages evolve too.
  - readthenotes1 5y ago
    My preferred pronoun is "the majestic one with no time for the nonsense of gendered pronouns". It cannot be combined in a plural; I stand alone.
    - giraffe_lady 5y ago

emptybottle 5y ago

It's good to see appreciation of different neurotypes for their strengths. Many people with ASD put a lot of time and effort into learning and altering their natural behavior in order to better understand and interact in a way that is perceived as normal by nerutotypical people. I'm hopeful the inverse will happen more over time as well, neurotypicals putting effort into learning and adjusting their own behavior to better interact with and understand autistic people. Making it normal to include input from all neurotypes (as opposed to excluding) is a great step forwards.

jajag 5y ago
^^^ this
BizarroLand 5y ago
One of my best friends is autistic. He's definitely a weirdo at times (I mean that in a positive way, for instance he likes old movies and watches them constantly, but when he says a movie is good he has never been wrong) but he's a good guy, would never betray anyone and is always social and fun to be around as long as it is inside of his comfort zone.
- zepto 5y ago
  > for instance he likes old movies and watches them constantly, but when he says a movie is good he has never been wrong) but he's a good guy You make it sound as if liking old movies should be cause for suspicion!
  - throwawaygh 5y ago
    Nah. The "but" differentiates a positive trait from a neutral trait, and the parenthetical phrase clarifies that the neutral trait isn't necessarily bad.
    - zepto 5y ago
      Yes. The fact that you have to qualify that the ‘neutral’ trait isn’t ‘necessarily’ bad implies that you think people might think it was bad. You wouldn’t need to qualify it otherwise.

paganel 5y ago

I've stopped reading at the Greta Thunberg cameo, up to that point I was still hoping for a decent article.

_ea1k 5y ago
That doesn't sound like a very rational choice.
- paganel 5y ago
  It seems very rational to me to stop reading once I see how the author tries to instrumentalize the medical condition of a "famous" child.

serverlessmom 5y ago

It is very good to see more positive recognition for people that are neurodivergent including how we actually improve and fit into society as well. I would argue that the greatest issue with neurotypical society over all is that it tends to value a singular mode of thinking and being as somehow inherently more valuable than others, failing to recognize that in our many differences we are actually stronger as a whole.

dhosek 5y ago

One thing worth noting about the spectrum in autistic spectrum disorder is that it does not mean what many people assume it does, that it's referring to a range of severity with mild on one end and severe on the other. Rather it's more a spectrum as in a spectrum of colors: there are a number of traits to autism, not all of which might be present in a person diagnosed with ASD so single-criteria tests like identify the emotions in these photographs, for example, don't really work as good diagnostic tools. This article found with a quick Google search seems to sum up some of this reasonably well: https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org/what-is-meant-by-the-autism-spectrum/ https://www.appliedbehavioranalysisedu.org/what-is-meant-by-...

cwkoss 5y ago

In psychology undergrad, I read about a study of anorexic people: they had people rate their own attractiveness, and had strangers rate their attractiveness. Normal population consistently rated themselves higher in attractiveness than strangers did on average. However, anorexic's self ratings were much closer to stranger-ratings. (May not be remembering this correctly and I assume this study was done in the 90s when thinness was more in fashion - wouldn't be surprised if it didn't replicate if done today) See also: dunning kruger effect. My takeaway is that the 'normal' human brain lies to itself in many ways which protect the ego. Some disorders are caused not by disconnection from reality, but rather too accurate a view of reality. I wouldn't be surprised if there are many autistic traits that have a similar origin: the brains socio-protective instinctual lies are failing, and autistic people are actually acting more rationally.

solarmist 5y ago
The version of this I heard was about pessimism or depression and other people's perceptions of their attractiveness. It may have been the same study or one inspired by the study you mentioned, but I've heard things like this before too.
guerrilla 5y ago
> Some disorders are caused not by disconnection from reality, but rather too accurate a view of reality. Yeah, I've heard this about depression. [1] > Depressive realism is the hypothesis developed by Lauren Alloy and Lyn Yvonne Abramson that depressed individuals make more realistic inferences than non-depressed individuals. Although depressed individuals are thought to have a negative cognitive bias that results in recurrent, negative automatic thoughts, maladaptive behaviors, and dysfunctional world beliefs, depressive realism argues not only that this negativity may reflect a more accurate appraisal of the world but also that non-depressed individuals' appraisals are positively biased. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Depressive_realism

justicezyx 5y ago

The rational man as a concept is still used nowadays as often as it is, that itself is a proof that the concept is as broken as it can be. The modern consumer economy is based on irrationality.

NaturalPhallacy 5y ago
I wouldn't say it's based on irrationality, but based on other things that aren't necessarily rational or irrational. Just manipulation of our rational+emotional brain sitting on top of our monkey brain which is sitting on top of our lizard brains.

wombatmobile 5y ago

ADHD people have a different calculus that affects their project management. NonA-DHD typically respond to deadlines with increased urgency, commitment, and re-factoring assessments. ADHD may respond to deadlines by abandoning tasks and starting new extraneous tasks. Is that rational? It’s what happens, and since it is such a dramatic and consequential difference, it warrants a reconsideration of the meaning of the term “rational”, and it’s limitations. ADHD isn’t an isolated minority. It’s a transient condition in a significant number of people, prevalent enough in the population to make economic text books about monolithic “rationality” unfit for purpose.

tux3 5y ago
Rationality isn't whatever people do. Biases are whatever people don't do optimally that they would, if they were perfectly rational. Various subgroups can have different responses, but rationality is its own ideal, regardless of what people do.
- zwkrt 5y ago
  In what sense!? From what god is Rationalty (TM) handed down? Which parts of society are Rational? Which of the sentences of mine is Rational? Ostensibly Rational just means “with reasons” or “calculated” but there are many different calculuses under which one could operate. I agree with GP. Economic rational agents are supposed to do things like maximize utility or minimize loss. I know that I for one do things like “anticipate others’ needs”, “feel ambivalent about eating the entire box of donuts”, and “take a day off work to practice origami”, and I’m not sure how those actions fit into the economic model.
  - PeterisP 5y ago
    It's not necessary to pull economics into the picture - the general definition is that a rational choice is making the choice that best furthers your goals. If you make suboptimal choices (with respect to your own goals - sacrificing "socially desirable" goals in order to achieve some desire of your own isn't irrational), that's an irrational choice, and people often do that for various reasons. We're not horribly bad at achieving our goals, but we're also nowhere near perfect. Some types of suboptimal choices are systematic, predictable deviations which we can study as biases.

readthenotes1 5y ago

"Autistic individuals are, on average, more consistent, less biased, and more rational than non-autistic individuals in a variety of contexts. (We use identity-first language, eg, ‘Autistic people’, as it is preferred by many people on the autism spectrum.)" Hmmm. What are they implying by that parenthetical comment placement?

zwkrt 5y ago
In psychology and social services there is a push to use terms like “person with Autism” or “person with autistic traits” as opposed to “autistic person” as many people seem to enjoy not being primarily labeled by something that only makes up a small part of their personality and an even smaller part of their personhood. Think of it like primitive vs value types in Java. ‘int a = 7; Integer b = 7’ “a” is 7, but “b” just has a pointer to 7. —- I guess autistic people must not mind or even prefer to identify in this way, but it can really help in a therapeutic setting not to call someone “a borderline woman” or “a psychotic woman” because for better or worse labeling someone as mentally unhealthy is colloquially tantamount to an insult.
- zepto 5y ago
  The point here is that autistic people who prefer this term don’t think it has anything to do with mental health or disease, and do think it’s a fundamental aspect of who they are, which can’t be separated.
zozbot234 5y ago
There's quite a bit of politicking in the autism movement over whether one should preferentially say 'people with autism' or 'autistic people'. The former (formally called "person-first language") is occasionally objected to because it frames 'autism' as a disease (compare 'people with cancer') as opposed to a sort of plausibly-benign divergence in cognition. As one might expect with such matters, there are reasonable arguments for either choice.

phkahler 5y ago

>> Imagine you have bought two non-refundable tickets to different trips, one much more costly. You are then told that you must cancel one of them. In this case, many people will cancel the cheaper trip regardless of which one they would prefer to go on – and even though they will have spent the same amount of money either way. Autistic individuals appear to be more likely to make a choice based on their personal preference rather than on an irrelevant cost. This is missing a hige piece of context. What about the possibility that you may later decide to repurchase whichever trip you decline now? My future cost is reduced by canceling the cheaper trip now. If both are in the realm of "I'd like to go there someday" and close in appeal, it is more rational to take the more expensive one. If we don't consider that larger (possible) context then obviously take the one you prefer the most.

Animats 5y ago

So "Autistic" is capitalized now? First names of elements started being capitalized. Then there was the "Black" thing, followed by the "White" thing. We seem to be headed back to the 1700s, when Important Words were capitalized.

Alekhine 5y ago
It's the beginning of the sentence.
- trentgreene 5y ago
  I think op is referring to the article, which uses "Autistic" no matter sentence position. Strangely, they use "non-autistic", though I'm unsure of any hardcore style rules about this