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I thought about getting a job there as a dev. However certain things like culture, low pay, the language, and making new friends has held me back. I really love
by deltaonefour 5y ago
I thought about getting a job there as a dev. However certain things like culture, low pay, the language, and making new friends has held me back. I really loved the city when I visited a couple years back.
Does anyone live in Japan as a dev and not really know how to speak japanese? How has the experience been?
- spoonjim 5y agoJapan is sui generis - if you don't really want to become "of Japan" I can't see a good reason to go there for more than a short sabbatical.
- deltaonefour 5y agoI mean eventually I want to learn the language right? The point is there will be a period of time where I don't know the language and hang out with my fellow ex-pats. Additionally I will never ever really actually master the language to the point where I'm indistinguishable from a native. I'm just wondering is Japan bearable under these conditions?
- stanrivers 5y agoNot to be depressing, but you could speak fluent Japanese and you will always be "my foreign friend" or "our foreign coworker" or "the white guy with really good Japanese" to, by and large, even your closest friends. On average, the country and its people are incredibly inviting and kind to guests and appreciative of foreigners that learn Japanese. However, you will always be viewed, by the vast majority, as being a guest - even after many many years and fluent Japanese. And some people are fine with that, and some people can't stand that.
- deltaonefour 5y agoYeah I heard of this, I think I'd be ok with it as this kind of thing would likely happen in China or other asian countries as well. Thanks for the tips. I think this is largely the case for asian countries where the people are more homogeneous. You get much less of this in countries or cities that are much more ethnically and culturally diverse.
- BossingAround 5y ago> Not to be depressing, but you could speak fluent Japanese and you will always be "my foreign friend" or "our foreign coworker" or "the white guy with really good Japanese" to, by and large, even your closest friends. I know what you mean, but I wanted to say that this is true essentially in all parts of the world, with the notable exception of some parts of North America. I think you refer to the subtle changes of behavior that come with the "you're our foreign coworker" that are specific to a lot of Asian cultures and are highly unpleasant, sometimes even racist. That, however, is also present in China, Thailand, South Korea, Vietnam, etc. Interestingly, in my limited experience, the Philippines is an amazingly open and hearty country without this "insider vs outsider" mentality.
- timr 5y agoI'm of mixed minds on this. The phenomenon is definitely real -- you'll be instinctively treated like a pet by a lot of people. This is frustrating. But I would not go as far as saying "you will always be 'my foreign friend'". Many foreigners in Japan have no marketable skills, and therefore get stuffed into the comfortable role of Foreign Guy, and never leave the role. It's a seductive role: you can get by with pretty minimal language skill and cultural awareness, make enough money to live in a nice place and do fun things, and you don't have to live with any of those annoying rules that drive the natives crazy! So people get to a certain level of cultural proficiency, and stop. Perhaps they teach English (or some other non-Japanese language), and their professional identity becomes...English. They go to foreign-hangout places, and hang out with foreign people. They don't learn the cultural norms beyond tourist-level schtick, and stick out like a sore thumb in any social situation. So yeah, of course those people tend to attract people who fetishize foreigners. It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. I've also met foreigners living and working across the country, in real professional capacities. They have colleagues and friends spouses and lives that I characterize as native as you can get. You're never completely native -- but that's true anywhere.
- mantas 5y agoOn top of that, it’s very easy to get stuck in expat community. It’s damn comfy. And it takes a lot of effort to break through. I spent 6 months in Japan a while ago. Working with other gaijins, hanging out with gaijins… My best contact with locals were at gaijin bars. They could speak some English, I could talk to locals. Was it bad? Definitely no. Could I make extra effort to talk to locals more? Yes. But since my goal in life isn’t to cosplay a Japanese…
- deltaonefour 5y agoYeah, I'm actually ok with this if this is what ends up happening. I'd prefer mingling with the locals, but I get that it may be hard.
- kstenerud 5y agoI didn't speak Japanese when I first moved there. In larger cities (especially Tokyo), there are plenty of people who speak English, so it's generally not a huge problem (although you'll find things easier if you do speak the language). The biggest issues are crowding and racism. Don't expect to get into any role of importance, and don't freak out when you hear "gaijin dame" (no foreigners allowed) in some places, or people sudenly moving to seats and tables further from you. On the other side of the coin, you won't be expected to understand how things work, so they'll be very forgiving (in a condescending way) of social gaffes and the strange way you act (after all, you're a foreigner; they all act that way). Many rules won't apply to you, unless you make an effort to have them apply to you (don't do this). You'll make few (if any) friends of the same gender. You will alway be an outsider. If you can live with this, you'll have a fun and interesting time there. Edit: Also, make friends with some oldtimers in the expat community (as long as they're not the jaded kind). They are a treasure trove of information and help. Edit 2: Don't learn Japanese from someone of the opposite gender (unless they're a trained language teacher). You'll sound ridiculous when you speak otherwise, because men and women use very different words and turns of phrases in many cases (nothing worse than hearing a man say "atashi" or the up-pitch "ne" unless he's in drag). Reading Japanese comic books can be helpful here because they tend towards hyperbole, which makes it easier to pick out the differences. I've found that female artists tend to play with language more than male artists. Edit 3: DO NOT BREAK THE LAW. Getting arrested in Japan is a hellish experience, and prison is even worse. Their justice system is still quite medieval. Quoting a friend of mine: "Japan is the most advanced 3rd world country I've seen."
- deltaonefour 5y agoYeah I don't mind being an outsider too much. Thanks, this is a good answer.
- VRay 5y agoA lot of the foreigners living in Tokyo misinterpret tiny bits of nothing as hostility and racism I'm a big guy, sometimes people make space for me on the train or whatever. It isn't racism. I'm a scary and weird looking guy too by local standards, it isn't racism when people gawk a little sometimes. People talk to me like a kid after I completely botch some basic phrase The only racist thing that ever happened to me in years living there was this: I went to a bar with my white friend, and they said "No American" and made an x sign at us. I asked in Japanese "sorry, what was that you said?" and suddenly they welcomed us in.. I guess they just didn't want rowdy dudes who can't speak the language. Definitely not acceptable behavior from them, but not too bad IMO. I get way worse treatment in the USA for being Hispanic than I ever do for being a foreigner in Japan The expat community in Tokyo is kinda obnoxious. There are a lot of lazy, burned out guys who complain about everything
- bedobi 5y agoAs others have pointed out, you probably don't want to be working for businesses that are run in the Japanese way, but there are plenty of both expat and native run businesses that aren't. The pay will be low but Tokyo is incredibly cheap so it's not really a problem locally. (but it is a problem in the sense that whatever you save won't be worth much elsewhere if you move back to the states or whatever later years later) It goes without saying your experience will be incomparably better the sooner you learn Japanese, and it's nowhere near as hard as popularly portrayed. Give it a shot, you only live once.
- nonbirithm 5y agoI've tried in the past, but didn't hear back from most of the places I applied to. The ones that did respond suggested that I look for a domestic role for the same company because my Japanese wasn't strong enough. I hadn't taken the JLPT at the time but I had been learning the language for 7 years at that point, and I would guess I'm currently at an N3 or N2 level. It does makes sense since they would say that since the JLPT doesn't test for language production, only interpretation. It's likely that I'm just looking in the wrong places, though. About all I understand how to do is to just trawl through public job boards looking for open positions. I still think it would be nice to work in Japan, even if it's only a thing that lasts as long as I can bear it. However, the pandemic has set back so much as visiting Japan as a tourist by several years, so I don't know how that bodes for working there.
- tjpnz 5y agoPay isn't that bad provided your expectations are reasonable. For reference I'm making more here than I could expect to make in NZ/AU/UK but nothing close to what's on offer in SV.
- deltaonefour 5y agoYeah, I'm in SV. Not FAANG but still.
- seanmcdirmid 5y agoYou can probably make more in China than Japan as a dev, assuming you have some talent that can’t be found easily locally. Of course, it might be impossible now given how the Chinese government has shifted, but that isn’t because of demand.
- rootsudo 5y agoNot impossible, just depends how much in demand are you. Chinese companies prefer to train their employees to learn and then you have 996/007.
- makotobestgirl 5y agoLiving in Tokyo is amazing, but working for a Japanese company as a dev is probably not a great career move if you're relatively young. Software Engineering in Japan is many years behind the rest of the world, the pay is relatively low, and it isn't considered as desirable of a career as it is in other countries. It would be much better if you could find an international or remote company that allows you to live in Japan. Then you can get the best of both worlds. If you don't speak Japanese you probably wouldn't be able to get a job at a Japanese company anyway. > However certain things like culture the language, and making new friends has held me back I think it's really hard to generalize because it's different from person to person. However, I think it's a very different experience if you speak Japanese. Roughly 95%+ (if not more) of the population in Tokyo does not speak English more than a few words. You can certainly get everything done in English, make contracts, find housing, find friends, there is a big enough community, but your social life will be extremely limited if you don't speak Japanese.
- deltaonefour 5y agoI thought about getting a remote role for an SV company while living in Tokyo but the timezone difference is way off.
- cehrlich 5y agoI've thought about trying to get a remote role for a company in AU/NZ and living in Japan that way, then you're "only" off by 1-4 hours. Better be good at waking up early though.
- lmm 5y agoI've lived here for two years and my Japanese is still not great, though getting better all the time. Both the highs and the lows have been bigger than I expected. I've loved the place on the whole but there have definitely been significant downsides too. If you don't like the culture I'd be very cautious about coming here.
- rootsudo 5y agoDon't need to speak to be a dev. Pay is low, rakuten imports devs regularly. Japanese prefer South East Asia/West Europeans vs Americans (North, Central & South.) Learning the language isn't hard either, I passed JLPT N4 within 3 months of just showing up in Tokyo. Max pay would be 40-60K/yr until you get PR &/OR N1/N2. Then it may balloon up a bit but not so much. You should be able to score a free apartment though.
- srvmshr 5y agoI am an expat living in Tokyo for 5 years. My language skills is limited - I haven't given any JLPT. I can understand some conversation but can't speak. I depend on my wife for most official paperwork. I have lived in US, China & India before. I work mostly in MLOps. Life is really not that bad. I would probably never go back to US. I work in niche ML & robotics domain and there is enough scope for growth and making new things. About life in general, what expats miss is that Japanese people forgive you for not knowing the language, but they do take offense at not following the general customs of the place. Being loud, making hand gestures, acting aggressively, talking on the phone in a public space & metro etc are big no-no. Too many foreigners feel unwelcome because they refuse to blend in & want to be the sore thumb sticking out. Once someone blends in their society and manages to have japanese folks invite you in their inner circles, you become as thick as a family member. It all boils down to being respectful of the local way of life. If you live in Japan as a Japanese, (and maybe speaking some Japanese e.g N4 level), life is really comfortable & easy
- devilsbabe 5y agoI've been working for a large US company in Tokyo for several years now. No need to know Japanese for work; I know a lot of people that speak it very poorly (though I wouldn't recommend that if you're staying here long term). The pay is good (~35M JPY/300K USD at L5) but there are very few companies with this level of compensation so the real cost is in the limited opportunities. Like everywhere, there's good and bad parts to living in Tokyo, but I've enjoyed it for the most part. It's friendly, clean, safe, and relatively cheap. On the other hand, there's sometimes discrimination against foreigners (especially in housing) and I don't appreciate how cramped apartments and houses are.
- deltaonefour 5y agoAre you in FAANG? That level of pay (300k) is also in the higher range for SV. Seems really rare to land such a role given that all the other reported salaries are around 60k. Would love to know if your situation is a fluke or if it's very possible for me to land such a role myself?
- devilsbabe 5y agoThe high-paying tech companies in Tokyo that I'm aware of are Google, Amazon, Indeed, Woven Planet, Stripe, and Doordash. Those last two are just starting out here so still have a limited presence. Those are basically your options. Outside of these, TC will go down quickly
- MarkSweep 5y agoJust as an existence proof, I interviewed for a team at Apple in Tokyo. The job was all in English and the team members had varying levels of Japanese language ability. I did not get far enough in the interview process to discuss comp.
- leicapowerball 5y agoI worked there for two years as an engineer for a multinational without speaking Japanese. The primary language of my team was english so the workdays were fine. I eventually was able to speak enough broken Japanese to order at restaurants, cafes, etc but anything beyond that was impossible for me. I know there are a few companies (Google, Facebook) that are hiring engineers in Japan where English is the primary language used. I have heard that there are also some native Japanese companies, like Mercari, where a significant amount of English is used as well. I found that not speaking Japanese was not that big of a deal especially if you live in central Tokyo or one of the suburbs that have a lot of expats. Most businesses that you would likely frequent will have english menus or speak enough broken english to get by. I had a few health problems while I was out there and there are several clinics that have native english support. The thing I found the most difficult about Japan is making Japanese friends. You will always be an outsider and in general Japanese folks just have different expectations when it comes to "work" friends vs "real" friends. You might think you're super close to a colleague from work but in reality you're a total stranger. It's not uncommon to not even know if someone is married or not. On the other hand if you're okay with having mostly expat friends, the community is very welcoming.