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I don't like it. Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity is a lot easier to deal with in many ways than an ethereal emulation of said objec

I don't like it. Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity is a lot easier to deal with in many ways than an ethereal emulation of said object. For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in, even if I can only communicate through little more than pointing and grunting. Another example: I got a new phone recently, but since all my stuff was still on my old phone, after the new phone was activated I told the clerk to put the new SIM back into the old phone. It was painless and literally took a minute. I'm sure dicking around with eSIMs would have taken far longer, and I'd have spend even more time dicking around to transfer things back. > Apple's former design chief Jony Ive once envisioned the iPhone as becoming a "single slab of glass," and the SIM card slot's removal would be another step towards a seamless design... I really do hate purist visions like that. > Taking out the slot would also free up some valuable internal space in the iPhone — every bit counts. And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner.

lajamerr 5y ago
I imagine a world where you just a bring a phone anywhere and it you open your network settings, go to your cellular data menu, and then automatically it detects the mobile network providers that support the towers it can see. Then you tap on the one you want, select the package you want, pay for it from that menu and then bam you are connected. All without having an existing Wi-Fi or Cellular data plan. There needs to be some basic/back-end service that allows for this type of communication to people not already subscribed to a mobile network.
- dragonelite 5y ago
  Does sounds like your giving away a lot privacy. But it does sound really convient especially if you like to travel.
- tablespoon 5y ago
  > Then you tap on the one you want, select the package you want, pay for it from that menu and then bam you are connected. And what if those menus are in some foreign language I don't understand? And how would that work with cash? I'd have to fork over my credit card (assuming that's even an acceptable form of payment) and may end up with a recurring charge for a cell plan in a country I'll visit for a week. Visions like yours are nice, but my money is what we'll actually get is a far crappier, buggier version. One impossible-to-replace benefit of physical objects is that you can use physical control to place limits on them. Pay with cash, no recurring changes, move the card, move the service. Theoretically you could do that in software, but practically you won't because those are expensive features that almost always get cut.
  - Retric 5y ago
    This feature is already implemented in many areas. As an English speaker your going to have few issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM
  - dkonofalski 5y ago
    >And what if those menus are in some foreign language I don't understand? And how would that work with cash? The menus will be in whatever language your phone is set to. You can use contactless payment like Apple Pay or Google Pay and there's no recurring charge unless you want there to be one.
    - NullPrefix 5y ago
      >contactless payment You do understand how strange this sounds? Like airdropping files from C:/Downloads to C:/Archive
      - dkonofalski 5y ago
        Can you elaborate? I can get an eSIM with service in less than 5 minutes and never leave my house/hotel using Apple Pay.
        NullPrefix 5y ago
        Yes, but is it contactless? If I write you a letter on a piece of paper, is it wireless transmission? Mind you, paper has no wires. Contactless payment is the marketing term for NFC technology. It has nothing to do with you not interacting with other people.
        dkonofalski 5y ago
        My point was that the payment was contactless. You don't have to give any paper or anything to another person. It's handled by Apple Pay using whatever payment method you want and the vendor/provider never gets your info.
- ndespres 5y ago
  That was exactly my experience traveling from USA to Europe. My iPhone didn't support global bands and wouldn't work with a local SIM. My iPad, however, came with the Apple SIM and let me purchase a local data plan in 2 different countries through a convenient menu that came up automatically. I'm sure there's a telecom company requirement for why this capability doesn't seem to work in a regular phone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM
- xadhominemx 5y ago
  My Verizon plan has worked seamlessly across 30+ countries over what past 5 years. Your proposal sounds worse than the status quo.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Come to Canada, where our plans are shit and their international roaming rates are even more shit. The second I'm across a border the SIM card comes out...
- schwartzworld 5y ago
  How is that simpler than sliding in a prepaid sim card?
  - mrcode007 5y ago
    Scanning a carrier provided QR code… this is how it’s currently done with iPhones
- takeda 5y ago
  You can do all of that with SIM already. The only restriction placed is by cell providers. You either use roaming feature, or if you use SIM that supposed to use multiple providers (like Google Fi) then it can use multiple networks. This change is bad for the customer no matter what. It's similar to me to what Verizon had during CDMA days.
- snowwolf 5y ago
  My ideal goes further than that. All I want is a reasonable data plan with non extortionate roaming rates from my existing provider (phone service is not important to me these days due to FaceTime/WhatsApp/etc). Some providers were starting to offer decent roaming to a large selection of countries that came out of your existing allowance with no additional charge but they seem to have started rolling back on that now as margins are getting squeezed. There is no reason for roaming charges for 1 week to be higher than the cost of a 1 month pre-paid local sim.
- edude03 5y ago
  That is exactly how it does (or did?) work with the Apple SIM card in an cellular iPad. You unlock the iPad it asks which network you want to connect to, and you pay with your credit card for the duration you choose
- 908B64B197 5y ago
  Even better: It just works (For iPhones to work on your network you would HAVE to sell bandwidth to Apple who then uses it for international roaming. The user really is connecting to and using Apple's Network, the local ISP only has the priviledge of serving packets to Apple devices.)
maratc 5y ago
> if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in If you're traveling you sometimes need to show your passport and fill out forms in a foreign language (looking at you, Germany). Adding eSIM is a lot easier, and will let you keep your regular phone connected when someone rings you (which is not happening a lot lately) or sends you a code via SMS. There are many reasons to keep SIM cards but traveling is not one of them.
- Godel_unicode 5y ago
  Traveling is absolutely one of them! You're making getting a local SIM sound much more difficult than it is; even in places like Germany the process is pretty quick and most places aren't anything more than give-currency-get-card. It's also very convenient to have a local phone number as many people are not excited about making an international call to tell you your table is ready (the alternative here is being forced into the panopticon of WhatsApp). It also encapsulates the trip nicely, nobody I give my number to while I'm there can call me when I get home unless I give them my real number.
  - maratc 5y ago
    I was traveling to Germany a month ago and read that "By law, all SIM cards in Germany now need to be registered on your name verified by your ID document (and an address) to be activated"[0] and "many more places sell SIM cards, than are allowed to register" and "newly purchased SIM card... doesn't work as you still need to register." I then installed Airalo app and bought an eSim in five minutes, still at home. Once I landed, I had 4G service for a week. On my trip, I was never asked for my (German?) phone number but had received multiple SMS verification codes to my regular line. Your experience may naturally be different. [0] https://prepaid-data-sim-card.fandom.com/wiki/Germany https://prepaid-data-sim-card.fandom.com/wiki/Germany
- aranelsurion 5y ago
  It's not a major problem for many people visiting Germany since roaming charges no longer apply within EU and you can carry your operator's plan to other EU countries, which IMO eliminates the need to buy a new SIM card altogether for many people. It only sucks if you come from somewhere else not in EU. Even then operators (iirc at least Vodafone) offer remote verification of documents over a video call, so it's not as painful as it might seem to be. I don't see how eSIM would make this easier, since the main pain point of verifying your identity will remain.
MilaM 5y ago
For a lot of less technically inclined folks I think eSIMs would introduce a lot of complexity. Swapping a SIM card is rather straight forward, and I know that for example my mother could easily do it by herself and has done so in the past. I don't think she would be able to swap an eSIM using the customer portal of her operator if it was necessary. I could see this causing a lot of headache for customer support or nearby relatives ;) Personally, I would also prefer to have the SIM-tray as a backup and for travel. Most prepaid plans in Europe still don't support eSIMs.
- smoovb 5y ago
  This is typical of Apple to force a technology change. That said, eSIM technology is ready and eSIM swapping is quite easy, and could become easier with some interface improvements. The issues with eSIM re-issuance are the biggest hurdle, but those fall on the carriers.
  - MilaM 5y ago
    Switching between eSIMs on the same phone is very easy. But migrating the profile to another phone is somewhat complicated in my experience. Nothing you would want to do regularily in my opinion. Essentially you have to disable your old eSIM and create and then provision a new one. Some plans allow you to have multiple SIMs activated at the same time. But usually you have to pay extra for that.
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
      As I remember, they just gave me a piece of paper with a QR code, I scanned it with my phone and here I have an esim. Are you saying eSim is now locked to my phone and if I scan the same paper with another phone it won't work?
      - smoovb 5y ago
        The QR code contains a one time use code, used to authenticate with the LPA server and lets you to download the SIM profile from your carrier. Once scanned and eSIM installed, the QR code is no longer valid. The carrier must re-issue a new QR code for that SIM to allow you to load it on a different device.
Nbox9 5y ago
> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity A SIM is not a embodiment of an iPhone’s identity. Maybe it was in the 90s, but today it’s so much more. The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. You can change SIMs, change your access token for one network, but you are making no bigger impact on your phone’s “identity” than if you were to change Wi-Fi networks. List of Identity related things that change when you change your SIM * Network Access Layer data associated with the cellular networks * Phone Number List of Identity relates things that do not change when changing your SIM * All data stored on the phone (messages, photos, apps) * Two Factor Authentication apps like Duo, PingID, Authy * ICloud Accounts * Stored passwords * Login tokens for various apps like email, social media, etc * Browser Cookies * Applet Wallet Data
- tablespoon 5y ago
  >> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity > The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. That's what I meant. Anyone with any familiarity with SIM cards knows it's no personality chip that brings everything over with it, and if it were such a thing it would probably be pretty annoying.
  - Nbox9 5y ago
    Actually, the SIM card use to be a “personality chip” in the 1990s. It stored your phone number and your contacts. There’s a scene in The Wire where a drug dealer confuses the police by changing the sim card of his phone when talking about criminal activity, which evades electronic surveillance (changing the phone’s ID on the network) and physical surveillance (sims are very small and concealable). I was specifically calling out how the use of a cell has grown in the last 30 years specifically as it related to identity. I’ve spent a lot of time engineering login pages and thinking about questions of user identity.
    - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
      But the phone hardware also has an IMEI, which it also tells the network: https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ So it might be you're basing your knowledge from some fictional show where the writers got it wrong.
timcederman 5y ago
I don't understand the comments here at all. Advocating for a far less convenient physical solution over a digital solution - on HN? Has anyone here actually dealt with eSIMs vs regular SIMs? I've been using phones since SIM cards were the size of a credit card, and eSIMs are amazing in every way compared to physical SIMs. What am I missing?
- kop316 5y ago
  When I helped my dad get a new iPhone at an Apple store without my mom (who is the primary holder of the phone account), my dad had to give all sorts of information to the employee and had to jump through a bunch of hoops that involved my mom being on the phone to give to the employee (things like giving my mom's SSN to the employee, sending a text to my mom's phone, and some other things I cannot remember now). After about 30 minutes of frustration, I saw that there was a physical SIM slot. We restarted the whole process to buy an unlocked iPhone and swapped the SIM card. That process took 3 minutes. I also have no problems swapping my SIM between an Android, Pinephone, Pinepine Pro, and Librem 5 to test out various things. Or buying a used/new phone and not having to visit my carrier's store to switch the eSIM. Or permentantly swapping my SIM to a Pinephone. Every time I have had to visit my carrier's store, I have to dedicate an hour to it. I also REALLY don't want Best Buy or some other thir party handling my PII to swap an eSIM. I will keep my physical SIM, thank you.
  - lotsofpulp 5y ago
    That experience has nothing to do with eSIM or physical SIM. It has to do with current protocols that mobile networks use to transfer phone numbers. Which can, and should change to something better than providing the SSN and passcode of the mobile network primary account holder who “owns” that phone number. If anything, your experience should lead you to advocate to a quicker change to eSIM, so that your dad can control his phone number without needing someone else’s SSN.
    - kop316 5y ago
      > That experience has nothing to do with eSIM or physical SIM. It has to do with current protocols that mobile networks use to transfer phone numbers. Given that so many things are tied to a phone number (they shouldn't, but are), there should be strong authentication measures to transfer phone numbers.
apozem 5y ago
> they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner. It's funny this commenter accuses Apple of mindlessness when they did not look up that the iPhone 13 and 13 Pro are thicker than their respective counterparts from last year. https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13,iphone12,iphone11 https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13,iph...
- manojlds 5y ago
  Because the iPhone 12 were mindlessly thinner and had such bad battery life that they had to make the battery bigger?
  - Gigachad 5y ago
    No I believe the 12 was thicker as well. It’s been something like 5 years since their thinnest phone. The 12 had bad battery life probably due to 5G.
- truculent 5y ago
  Other features like battery life are clearly more important to people than thinness and that seems to be catching on with manufacturers (although weight still matters). I would speculate that removal of the physical SIM card is more likely to be about one (or a combination) of: * Apple taking even more control over the device * Making it marginally more difficult to switch to another brand's ecosystem * Resilience (e.g. water/dust proofing).
  - takeda 5y ago
    > * Resilience (e.g. water/dust proofing). Phones already were water proof when they had sim cards and phone jack. While I never owned an iPhone, those changes annoy me immensely. The reason for it is that Android manufacturers are copying all of that. I'm currently want to update phone, and want one with sd card and phone jack. Those two things make my selection much smaller. And looking at trends looks like very soon it will be similarly gone as physical keyboard is.
ramesh31 5y ago
>I really do hate purist visions like that. So use an Android. You have hundreds of manufacturers to choose from. People love Apple precisely because of their purist vision, and that's what made them the most valuable public company on earth.
sandworm101 5y ago
>> For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in That is exactly what apple doesn't want you to do. They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users. If you are a local ISP, you better be part of the program if you want to sell your services to apple's devices. And most users will be OK with this. They will probably appreciated not having to buy a local SIM cars. They will enjoy how easily their virtual SIM connected to the local ISP and hooked them into a the prearranged roaming deal for apple devices. They won't question the price because they will have no input into a negotiation that happened years before they arrived in the country. All that is left for them is to blindly pay the bills.
- throw0101a 5y ago
  > They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users. SIMs come from the phone company. How could it be otherwise as that's where the phone number comes from, and that's how the local physical network determines whether you're allowed to connect or not: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card Unless Apple is planning to become a MVNO (or building out their own cell towers), they cannot provide any information for network connectivity.
  - neon_electro 5y ago
    From your own link: > A virtual SIM is a mobile phone number provided by a mobile network operator that does not require a SIM card to connect phone calls to a user's mobile phone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card#Other_variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card#Other_variants This isn't about Apple becoming an MVNO, this is about Apple somehow controlling the process of configuring your phone because you no longer have the option to choose a SIM card and insert it yourself.
    - 5y ago
givinguflac 5y ago
I recently had an iPhone repaired and apple wiped the device including the eSIM. I took it to the Verizon store and even they couldn’t get the eSIM working again and I walked out with a new physical SIM. They need to plan a lot more of the experience out before removing the SIM in my opinion as well.
- mason55 5y ago
  Or Apple will just do it and the rest of the world will get on board. If Apple removes the SIM and people have a bad experience at Verizon, they will blame Verizon, not Apple. Apple have a long history of not being afraid of getting ahead of the curve. Sometimes it works out (removal of floppy drive), sometimes it doesn't (lack of ports on the previous gen MBP).
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
applecore 5y ago
> And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner. Thinner is absolutely better. The ergonomics and lightness of the iPhones 6 through 8 are far superior to the thick and heavy iPhones Pro of today. Without Jony Ive at the design helm to push the "single slab of glass" vision, the thickness and weight has been gradually creeping upward for years now to cram in more batteries and hardware. A return to thin iPhones would be a good thing.
ddingus 5y ago
"we don't make margin when shipping air"
mrcode007 5y ago
Newest iPhones already come without SIM cards. They use ESIM modules. My phone has a sim slot that is empty. That space can be utilized to put in another useful chip, sensor or shrink the device dimensions. Edit: you can still enroll in a different carrier when traveling with an ESIM because they’re often dual ESIM modules and the way to do it through GUI is trivial. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209044 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209044 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780
seanmcdirmid 5y ago
Virtual sims are incredibly convenient for traveling. The first time I used one in Thailand it was magical: no need to buy and pop a physical SIM into your phone, and no need to take care and not lose your original SIM.
- smoovb 5y ago
  Thailand carriers are also competitive on the global stage due to the data arbitrage they get from so much inbound tourist data demand. The AIS SIM2Fly eSIM 130 country roaming SIM is 30% cheaper than Google Fi in about 90 countries and 60% cheaper in 30 Asian countries.
traceroute66 5y ago
> If I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in I don't understand this comment. Pre-COVID I used to travel a lot for business, with an iPhone. iPhone has physical SIM + virtual SIM. My "home" SIM would stay in my iPhone. Meanwhile I would have one of the many eSIM apps (Truephone, GigSky etc.) on my phone, which I would activate for international data for X days which would enable me to continue doing VoIP and messaging apps as normal. I don't see the need to go buy local SIMs (and indeed, in some countries, buying SIMs as a foreigner is difficult for legal not language barrier reasons).
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
  The difference is the price. Any international eSim plan is many times more expensive per GB than a local sim card. Especially if you need a lot of GBs.
  - traceroute66 5y ago
    Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the country/region. And as I said, sometimes you can't even buy SIMs as a foreigner anyway due to legal restrictions. Plus, in reality who needs "lots of GBs" these days when travelling ? You need "enough" GBs to tide you over between WiFi hotspots which, let's face it, in 2021 are everywhere and free in many places (hotels, conference venues, offices, shopping centres, coffee shops etc.).
    - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
      I've been to many many countries, not once I was not able to buy a prepaid sim card as a tourist. Wish you luck in your marketing campaign.
      - traceroute66 5y ago
        What marketing campaign ? You cannot accuse me of being a shill because I named multiple eSIM providers (alongside an "etc." suffix at the end of the list) so you have no right whatsoever to accuse me of marketing for any specific eSIM provider. (I do not work for an eSIM provider either). So please stop your trolling.
ignoramous 5y ago
eSIMs would make it incredibly easy to switch between mobile phone providers. Startups like airalo.com exist already that magically enroll you with the foreign country's local carrier even before your train/flight's taken off. Roaming around would be so seamless, and there's no dicking around acquiring SIMs by handing handover your IDs to different vendors with questionable document security measures all over the world.
hermes8329 5y ago
You make good points but at this point esim is incredibly awesome. it is super easy to use
eksployted 5y ago
In theory eSIMs should make that easier (when all networks support it). They can store multiple numbers/sim cards which you can switch on the fly.
javitury 5y ago
I don't have an iphone but I side with apple this time. Using credentials(esim) for accessing phone networks looks much easier and practical than physical tokens. No need to wait 2 weeks to switch companies. No need to check if your phone supports dual sims, and which slot is the one with 4G/5G. Security won't be worse, remeber that sim swapping already exist. It's a win for consumers. Would anyone use a physical token to access a wifi network? Even corporate wifi networks use credentials or digital certificates.
pieterhg 5y ago
This hasn't been my experience. I use only eSIMs now on an iPhone 13. I buy eSIMs via Airalo's iOS app (not affiliated, not an ad but love it). It takes me 30 seconds from buying an eSIM in any country worldwide from their app, paying with Apple Pay, to having it active and working with data and voice line. I travel a lot and before it'd take 15 minutes to sometimes an hour of driving to a phone shop or finding it at the airport, getting your passport copied (fraud risk), getting foreign money in cash out to pay, and handing a stranger your phone. Big improvement for me. And I can run 2x eSIMs at the same time!
- klabb3 5y ago
  What happens when you have more than the 2 active? Can they still be stored on the phone and reactivated in the future?
  - kanbara 5y ago
    yep, you can have multiple eSIM and just swap on the fly
- NullPrefix 5y ago
  >And I can run 2x eSIMs at the same time Dual SIM devices were available for a long time. Yes, most of them were dual standy sim, which meant that you wouldn't get calls from one while talking on another.
  - smileybarry 5y ago
    > Dual SIM devices were available for a long time. Dual eSIM, however, are fairly new.
- deadc0de 5y ago
  The problem with services like Airalo is that they almost never give you a local phone number. In many countries getting a phone number involves showing a physical id.
jon889 5y ago
There’s already an app called Airalo that lets you buy eSIMs in different countries. You don’t have to visit a shop to get a SIM which is better because in many countries the SIM shops will rip tourists off and/or there will be a language barrier issue.
- EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
  Still, they will not rip you as much as Airalo.
novok 5y ago
eSIMs can be bad or good. I hope eSIMs eventually reduce carriers to a network you can choose to connect to, like your wifi. Choose it, choose a plan set, enter payment, switch plans, done. Hell you could have multi-plans simultaneously. Travel to a new country? Same thing. No apps should even be required, it should be a native OS functionality. TBH the entire concept of a SIM isn't needed anymore, cellular networks should become like wifi networks, and should be as easy to switch between too, complete with phone number portability. People remember the bad old days of CDMA where a phone was bound to a network and there was no way to change it's internal esim. It doesn't have to be that way and most of the world doesn't do phone locking that much or at all anymore, much like your phone's wifi. When cell networks become like wifi, the government excuses for KYC to buy fucking cell service would be reduced even further.
vkk8 5y ago
> And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner. For some reason this is what the phone manufacturers seem to think that people want and I don't know why. I don't think getting thinner and smaller phones has given me any extra value in the past decade. I would rather have a thicker phone with bigger battery.

lajamerr 5y ago

I imagine a world where you just a bring a phone anywhere and it you open your network settings, go to your cellular data menu, and then automatically it detects the mobile network providers that support the towers it can see. Then you tap on the one you want, select the package you want, pay for it from that menu and then bam you are connected. All without having an existing Wi-Fi or Cellular data plan. There needs to be some basic/back-end service that allows for this type of communication to people not already subscribed to a mobile network.

dragonelite 5y ago
Does sounds like your giving away a lot privacy. But it does sound really convient especially if you like to travel.
tablespoon 5y ago
> Then you tap on the one you want, select the package you want, pay for it from that menu and then bam you are connected. And what if those menus are in some foreign language I don't understand? And how would that work with cash? I'd have to fork over my credit card (assuming that's even an acceptable form of payment) and may end up with a recurring charge for a cell plan in a country I'll visit for a week. Visions like yours are nice, but my money is what we'll actually get is a far crappier, buggier version. One impossible-to-replace benefit of physical objects is that you can use physical control to place limits on them. Pay with cash, no recurring changes, move the card, move the service. Theoretically you could do that in software, but practically you won't because those are expensive features that almost always get cut.
- Retric 5y ago
  This feature is already implemented in many areas. As an English speaker your going to have few issues. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM
- dkonofalski 5y ago
  >And what if those menus are in some foreign language I don't understand? And how would that work with cash? The menus will be in whatever language your phone is set to. You can use contactless payment like Apple Pay or Google Pay and there's no recurring charge unless you want there to be one.
  - NullPrefix 5y ago
    >contactless payment You do understand how strange this sounds? Like airdropping files from C:/Downloads to C:/Archive
    - dkonofalski 5y ago
      Can you elaborate? I can get an eSIM with service in less than 5 minutes and never leave my house/hotel using Apple Pay.
      - NullPrefix 5y ago
        Yes, but is it contactless? If I write you a letter on a piece of paper, is it wireless transmission? Mind you, paper has no wires. Contactless payment is the marketing term for NFC technology. It has nothing to do with you not interacting with other people.
        dkonofalski 5y ago
        My point was that the payment was contactless. You don't have to give any paper or anything to another person. It's handled by Apple Pay using whatever payment method you want and the vendor/provider never gets your info.
ndespres 5y ago
That was exactly my experience traveling from USA to Europe. My iPhone didn't support global bands and wouldn't work with a local SIM. My iPad, however, came with the Apple SIM and let me purchase a local data plan in 2 different countries through a convenient menu that came up automatically. I'm sure there's a telecom company requirement for why this capability doesn't seem to work in a regular phone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_SIM
xadhominemx 5y ago
My Verizon plan has worked seamlessly across 30+ countries over what past 5 years. Your proposal sounds worse than the status quo.
- Mikeb85 5y ago
  Come to Canada, where our plans are shit and their international roaming rates are even more shit. The second I'm across a border the SIM card comes out...
schwartzworld 5y ago
How is that simpler than sliding in a prepaid sim card?
- mrcode007 5y ago
  Scanning a carrier provided QR code… this is how it’s currently done with iPhones
takeda 5y ago
You can do all of that with SIM already. The only restriction placed is by cell providers. You either use roaming feature, or if you use SIM that supposed to use multiple providers (like Google Fi) then it can use multiple networks. This change is bad for the customer no matter what. It's similar to me to what Verizon had during CDMA days.
snowwolf 5y ago
My ideal goes further than that. All I want is a reasonable data plan with non extortionate roaming rates from my existing provider (phone service is not important to me these days due to FaceTime/WhatsApp/etc). Some providers were starting to offer decent roaming to a large selection of countries that came out of your existing allowance with no additional charge but they seem to have started rolling back on that now as margins are getting squeezed. There is no reason for roaming charges for 1 week to be higher than the cost of a 1 month pre-paid local sim.
edude03 5y ago
That is exactly how it does (or did?) work with the Apple SIM card in an cellular iPad. You unlock the iPad it asks which network you want to connect to, and you pay with your credit card for the duration you choose
908B64B197 5y ago
Even better: It just works (For iPhones to work on your network you would HAVE to sell bandwidth to Apple who then uses it for international roaming. The user really is connecting to and using Apple's Network, the local ISP only has the priviledge of serving packets to Apple devices.)

maratc 5y ago

> if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in If you're traveling you sometimes need to show your passport and fill out forms in a foreign language (looking at you, Germany). Adding eSIM is a lot easier, and will let you keep your regular phone connected when someone rings you (which is not happening a lot lately) or sends you a code via SMS. There are many reasons to keep SIM cards but traveling is not one of them.

Godel_unicode 5y ago
Traveling is absolutely one of them! You're making getting a local SIM sound much more difficult than it is; even in places like Germany the process is pretty quick and most places aren't anything more than give-currency-get-card. It's also very convenient to have a local phone number as many people are not excited about making an international call to tell you your table is ready (the alternative here is being forced into the panopticon of WhatsApp). It also encapsulates the trip nicely, nobody I give my number to while I'm there can call me when I get home unless I give them my real number.
- maratc 5y ago
  I was traveling to Germany a month ago and read that "By law, all SIM cards in Germany now need to be registered on your name verified by your ID document (and an address) to be activated"[0] and "many more places sell SIM cards, than are allowed to register" and "newly purchased SIM card... doesn't work as you still need to register." I then installed Airalo app and bought an eSim in five minutes, still at home. Once I landed, I had 4G service for a week. On my trip, I was never asked for my (German?) phone number but had received multiple SMS verification codes to my regular line. Your experience may naturally be different. [0] https://prepaid-data-sim-card.fandom.com/wiki/Germany https://prepaid-data-sim-card.fandom.com/wiki/Germany
aranelsurion 5y ago
It's not a major problem for many people visiting Germany since roaming charges no longer apply within EU and you can carry your operator's plan to other EU countries, which IMO eliminates the need to buy a new SIM card altogether for many people. It only sucks if you come from somewhere else not in EU. Even then operators (iirc at least Vodafone) offer remote verification of documents over a video call, so it's not as painful as it might seem to be. I don't see how eSIM would make this easier, since the main pain point of verifying your identity will remain.

MilaM 5y ago

For a lot of less technically inclined folks I think eSIMs would introduce a lot of complexity. Swapping a SIM card is rather straight forward, and I know that for example my mother could easily do it by herself and has done so in the past. I don't think she would be able to swap an eSIM using the customer portal of her operator if it was necessary. I could see this causing a lot of headache for customer support or nearby relatives ;) Personally, I would also prefer to have the SIM-tray as a backup and for travel. Most prepaid plans in Europe still don't support eSIMs.

smoovb 5y ago
This is typical of Apple to force a technology change. That said, eSIM technology is ready and eSIM swapping is quite easy, and could become easier with some interface improvements. The issues with eSIM re-issuance are the biggest hurdle, but those fall on the carriers.
- MilaM 5y ago
  Switching between eSIMs on the same phone is very easy. But migrating the profile to another phone is somewhat complicated in my experience. Nothing you would want to do regularily in my opinion. Essentially you have to disable your old eSIM and create and then provision a new one. Some plans allow you to have multiple SIMs activated at the same time. But usually you have to pay extra for that.
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
    As I remember, they just gave me a piece of paper with a QR code, I scanned it with my phone and here I have an esim. Are you saying eSim is now locked to my phone and if I scan the same paper with another phone it won't work?
    - smoovb 5y ago
      The QR code contains a one time use code, used to authenticate with the LPA server and lets you to download the SIM profile from your carrier. Once scanned and eSIM installed, the QR code is no longer valid. The carrier must re-issue a new QR code for that SIM to allow you to load it on a different device.

Nbox9 5y ago

> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity A SIM is not a embodiment of an iPhone’s identity. Maybe it was in the 90s, but today it’s so much more. The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. You can change SIMs, change your access token for one network, but you are making no bigger impact on your phone’s “identity” than if you were to change Wi-Fi networks. List of Identity related things that change when you change your SIM * Network Access Layer data associated with the cellular networks * Phone Number List of Identity relates things that do not change when changing your SIM * All data stored on the phone (messages, photos, apps) * Two Factor Authentication apps like Duo, PingID, Authy * ICloud Accounts * Stored passwords * Login tokens for various apps like email, social media, etc * Browser Cookies * Applet Wallet Data

tablespoon 5y ago
>> Having a physical object the embodies your phone's identity > The SIM is more like your iPhone’s credentials for accessing one network. That's what I meant. Anyone with any familiarity with SIM cards knows it's no personality chip that brings everything over with it, and if it were such a thing it would probably be pretty annoying.
- Nbox9 5y ago
  Actually, the SIM card use to be a “personality chip” in the 1990s. It stored your phone number and your contacts. There’s a scene in The Wire where a drug dealer confuses the police by changing the sim card of his phone when talking about criminal activity, which evades electronic surveillance (changing the phone’s ID on the network) and physical surveillance (sims are very small and concealable). I was specifically calling out how the use of a cell has grown in the last 30 years specifically as it related to identity. I’ve spent a lot of time engineering login pages and thinking about questions of user identity.
  - bellyfullofbac 5y ago
    But the phone hardware also has an IMEI, which it also tells the network: https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ https://weartotrack.com/imei-number-blocked/ So it might be you're basing your knowledge from some fictional show where the writers got it wrong.

timcederman 5y ago

I don't understand the comments here at all. Advocating for a far less convenient physical solution over a digital solution - on HN? Has anyone here actually dealt with eSIMs vs regular SIMs? I've been using phones since SIM cards were the size of a credit card, and eSIMs are amazing in every way compared to physical SIMs. What am I missing?

kop316 5y ago
When I helped my dad get a new iPhone at an Apple store without my mom (who is the primary holder of the phone account), my dad had to give all sorts of information to the employee and had to jump through a bunch of hoops that involved my mom being on the phone to give to the employee (things like giving my mom's SSN to the employee, sending a text to my mom's phone, and some other things I cannot remember now). After about 30 minutes of frustration, I saw that there was a physical SIM slot. We restarted the whole process to buy an unlocked iPhone and swapped the SIM card. That process took 3 minutes. I also have no problems swapping my SIM between an Android, Pinephone, Pinepine Pro, and Librem 5 to test out various things. Or buying a used/new phone and not having to visit my carrier's store to switch the eSIM. Or permentantly swapping my SIM to a Pinephone. Every time I have had to visit my carrier's store, I have to dedicate an hour to it. I also REALLY don't want Best Buy or some other thir party handling my PII to swap an eSIM. I will keep my physical SIM, thank you.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  That experience has nothing to do with eSIM or physical SIM. It has to do with current protocols that mobile networks use to transfer phone numbers. Which can, and should change to something better than providing the SSN and passcode of the mobile network primary account holder who “owns” that phone number. If anything, your experience should lead you to advocate to a quicker change to eSIM, so that your dad can control his phone number without needing someone else’s SSN.
  - kop316 5y ago
    > That experience has nothing to do with eSIM or physical SIM. It has to do with current protocols that mobile networks use to transfer phone numbers. Given that so many things are tied to a phone number (they shouldn't, but are), there should be strong authentication measures to transfer phone numbers.

apozem 5y ago

> they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner. It's funny this commenter accuses Apple of mindlessness when they did not look up that the iPhone 13 and 13 Pro are thicker than their respective counterparts from last year. https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13,iphone12,iphone11 https://www.apple.com/iphone/compare/?modelList=iphone13,iph...

manojlds 5y ago
Because the iPhone 12 were mindlessly thinner and had such bad battery life that they had to make the battery bigger?
- Gigachad 5y ago
  No I believe the 12 was thicker as well. It’s been something like 5 years since their thinnest phone. The 12 had bad battery life probably due to 5G.
truculent 5y ago
Other features like battery life are clearly more important to people than thinness and that seems to be catching on with manufacturers (although weight still matters). I would speculate that removal of the physical SIM card is more likely to be about one (or a combination) of: * Apple taking even more control over the device * Making it marginally more difficult to switch to another brand's ecosystem * Resilience (e.g. water/dust proofing).
- takeda 5y ago
  > * Resilience (e.g. water/dust proofing). Phones already were water proof when they had sim cards and phone jack. While I never owned an iPhone, those changes annoy me immensely. The reason for it is that Android manufacturers are copying all of that. I'm currently want to update phone, and want one with sd card and phone jack. Those two things make my selection much smaller. And looking at trends looks like very soon it will be similarly gone as physical keyboard is.

ramesh31 5y ago

>I really do hate purist visions like that. So use an Android. You have hundreds of manufacturers to choose from. People love Apple precisely because of their purist vision, and that's what made them the most valuable public company on earth.

sandworm101 5y ago

>> For instance, if I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in That is exactly what apple doesn't want you to do. They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users. If you are a local ISP, you better be part of the program if you want to sell your services to apple's devices. And most users will be OK with this. They will probably appreciated not having to buy a local SIM cars. They will enjoy how easily their virtual SIM connected to the local ISP and hooked them into a the prearranged roaming deal for apple devices. They won't question the price because they will have no input into a negotiation that happened years before they arrived in the country. All that is left for them is to blindly pay the bills.

throw0101a 5y ago
> They don't want users making deals with local ISPs for service. They want in on that transaction. Virtual SIMs, controlled by phone manufacturers, will allow them to exercise a degree of control over wandering users. SIMs come from the phone company. How could it be otherwise as that's where the phone number comes from, and that's how the local physical network determines whether you're allowed to connect or not: * https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card Unless Apple is planning to become a MVNO (or building out their own cell towers), they cannot provide any information for network connectivity.
- neon_electro 5y ago
  From your own link: > A virtual SIM is a mobile phone number provided by a mobile network operator that does not require a SIM card to connect phone calls to a user's mobile phone. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card#Other_variants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SIM_card#Other_variants This isn't about Apple becoming an MVNO, this is about Apple somehow controlling the process of configuring your phone because you no longer have the option to choose a SIM card and insert it yourself.
  - 5y ago

givinguflac 5y ago

I recently had an iPhone repaired and apple wiped the device including the eSIM. I took it to the Verizon store and even they couldn’t get the eSIM working again and I walked out with a new physical SIM. They need to plan a lot more of the experience out before removing the SIM in my opinion as well.

mason55 5y ago
Or Apple will just do it and the rest of the world will get on board. If Apple removes the SIM and people have a bad experience at Verizon, they will blame Verizon, not Apple. Apple have a long history of not being afraid of getting ahead of the curve. Sometimes it works out (removal of floppy drive), sometimes it doesn't (lack of ports on the previous gen MBP).
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

applecore 5y ago

> And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner. Thinner is absolutely better. The ergonomics and lightness of the iPhones 6 through 8 are far superior to the thick and heavy iPhones Pro of today. Without Jony Ive at the design helm to push the "single slab of glass" vision, the thickness and weight has been gradually creeping upward for years now to cram in more batteries and hardware. A return to thin iPhones would be a good thing.

ddingus 5y ago

"we don't make margin when shipping air"

mrcode007 5y ago

Newest iPhones already come without SIM cards. They use ESIM modules. My phone has a sim slot that is empty. That space can be utilized to put in another useful chip, sensor or shrink the device dimensions. Edit: you can still enroll in a different carrier when traveling with an ESIM because they’re often dual ESIM modules and the way to do it through GUI is trivial. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209044 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT209044 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212780

seanmcdirmid 5y ago

Virtual sims are incredibly convenient for traveling. The first time I used one in Thailand it was magical: no need to buy and pop a physical SIM into your phone, and no need to take care and not lose your original SIM.

smoovb 5y ago
Thailand carriers are also competitive on the global stage due to the data arbitrage they get from so much inbound tourist data demand. The AIS SIM2Fly eSIM 130 country roaming SIM is 30% cheaper than Google Fi in about 90 countries and 60% cheaper in 30 Asian countries.

traceroute66 5y ago

> If I'm traveling I can just buy a SIM card at a kiosk and pop it in I don't understand this comment. Pre-COVID I used to travel a lot for business, with an iPhone. iPhone has physical SIM + virtual SIM. My "home" SIM would stay in my iPhone. Meanwhile I would have one of the many eSIM apps (Truephone, GigSky etc.) on my phone, which I would activate for international data for X days which would enable me to continue doing VoIP and messaging apps as normal. I don't see the need to go buy local SIMs (and indeed, in some countries, buying SIMs as a foreigner is difficult for legal not language barrier reasons).

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
The difference is the price. Any international eSim plan is many times more expensive per GB than a local sim card. Especially if you need a lot of GBs.
- traceroute66 5y ago
  Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the country/region. And as I said, sometimes you can't even buy SIMs as a foreigner anyway due to legal restrictions. Plus, in reality who needs "lots of GBs" these days when travelling ? You need "enough" GBs to tide you over between WiFi hotspots which, let's face it, in 2021 are everywhere and free in many places (hotels, conference venues, offices, shopping centres, coffee shops etc.).
  - EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
    I've been to many many countries, not once I was not able to buy a prepaid sim card as a tourist. Wish you luck in your marketing campaign.
    - traceroute66 5y ago
      What marketing campaign ? You cannot accuse me of being a shill because I named multiple eSIM providers (alongside an "etc." suffix at the end of the list) so you have no right whatsoever to accuse me of marketing for any specific eSIM provider. (I do not work for an eSIM provider either). So please stop your trolling.

ignoramous 5y ago

eSIMs would make it incredibly easy to switch between mobile phone providers. Startups like airalo.com exist already that magically enroll you with the foreign country's local carrier even before your train/flight's taken off. Roaming around would be so seamless, and there's no dicking around acquiring SIMs by handing handover your IDs to different vendors with questionable document security measures all over the world.

hermes8329 5y ago

You make good points but at this point esim is incredibly awesome. it is super easy to use

eksployted 5y ago

In theory eSIMs should make that easier (when all networks support it). They can store multiple numbers/sim cards which you can switch on the fly.

javitury 5y ago

I don't have an iphone but I side with apple this time. Using credentials(esim) for accessing phone networks looks much easier and practical than physical tokens. No need to wait 2 weeks to switch companies. No need to check if your phone supports dual sims, and which slot is the one with 4G/5G. Security won't be worse, remeber that sim swapping already exist. It's a win for consumers. Would anyone use a physical token to access a wifi network? Even corporate wifi networks use credentials or digital certificates.

pieterhg 5y ago

This hasn't been my experience. I use only eSIMs now on an iPhone 13. I buy eSIMs via Airalo's iOS app (not affiliated, not an ad but love it). It takes me 30 seconds from buying an eSIM in any country worldwide from their app, paying with Apple Pay, to having it active and working with data and voice line. I travel a lot and before it'd take 15 minutes to sometimes an hour of driving to a phone shop or finding it at the airport, getting your passport copied (fraud risk), getting foreign money in cash out to pay, and handing a stranger your phone. Big improvement for me. And I can run 2x eSIMs at the same time!

klabb3 5y ago
What happens when you have more than the 2 active? Can they still be stored on the phone and reactivated in the future?
- kanbara 5y ago
  yep, you can have multiple eSIM and just swap on the fly
NullPrefix 5y ago
>And I can run 2x eSIMs at the same time Dual SIM devices were available for a long time. Yes, most of them were dual standy sim, which meant that you wouldn't get calls from one while talking on another.
- smileybarry 5y ago
  > Dual SIM devices were available for a long time. Dual eSIM, however, are fairly new.
deadc0de 5y ago
The problem with services like Airalo is that they almost never give you a local phone number. In many countries getting a phone number involves showing a physical id.

jon889 5y ago

There’s already an app called Airalo that lets you buy eSIMs in different countries. You don’t have to visit a shop to get a SIM which is better because in many countries the SIM shops will rip tourists off and/or there will be a language barrier issue.

EVa5I7bHFq9mnYK 5y ago
Still, they will not rip you as much as Airalo.

novok 5y ago

eSIMs can be bad or good. I hope eSIMs eventually reduce carriers to a network you can choose to connect to, like your wifi. Choose it, choose a plan set, enter payment, switch plans, done. Hell you could have multi-plans simultaneously. Travel to a new country? Same thing. No apps should even be required, it should be a native OS functionality. TBH the entire concept of a SIM isn't needed anymore, cellular networks should become like wifi networks, and should be as easy to switch between too, complete with phone number portability. People remember the bad old days of CDMA where a phone was bound to a network and there was no way to change it's internal esim. It doesn't have to be that way and most of the world doesn't do phone locking that much or at all anymore, much like your phone's wifi. When cell networks become like wifi, the government excuses for KYC to buy fucking cell service would be reduced even further.

vkk8 5y ago

> And my money is that they'll use whatever volume they free up to mindlessly make the phone thinner. For some reason this is what the phone manufacturers seem to think that people want and I don't know why. I don't think getting thinner and smaller phones has given me any extra value in the past decade. I would rather have a thicker phone with bigger battery.