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I do not understand why articles like these consistently score poorly on HN? Of course it’s all based on luck, but that doesn’t make it an uninteresting read. I

I do not understand why articles like these consistently score poorly on HN? Of course it’s all based on luck, but that doesn’t make it an uninteresting read. I admire the diligence of the author, and how well they played the lucky cards they were given. I am frequently in awe when reading technical articles on HN, with people advancing the state of the art in some technology. Those people also are incredibly lucky, because they were born with massive talents that, through sacrifices and education, they transformed into life achievements. As an average software engineer I was not lucky enough to be born with cognitive skills that will ever allow me to reach those technical highs, but that is not a reason to crap on it saying “Just luck! Just genetic/environmental luck!”. Similarly, I don’t typically read from others: “It’s easy for you to rewrite the Linux kernel in JavaScript over a weekend, your work is just luck because you were born a genius in a developed country so all your achievements need to be discounted and you have no merits!”. I suspect when it comes to compensation talk people tend on average to get more bitter than they should otherwise be. Maybe I take this to heart because I made significant sacrifices to immigrate to the US and, while I was immensely lucky to succeed in the endeavor, most people I know would have never taken those uncomfortable steps (leaving family behind in a different country, sacrifice personal space by frugal living in a HCOL area as opposed to a LCOL area with a house and backyard for the kids, …), yet they will happily “complain” that my compensation is much higher than theirs, and that there is no merit to it, rather than simply admitting that they willingly chose a different path in life, but they could have chased my same opportunities with largely the same financial outcome. If I was reading this article and I was not a tech worker in the US but interested in getting those compensations, my first reaction would be “damn, let me research what are the options for legal immigration to the US and let me start down a path that has good odds of me landing a tech job over there within 5-10 years”. It would not be “let me complain on HN how the country I am a forever-prisoner in has a 90% effective tax rate so that I feel good about my situation”.

endisneigh 5y ago
> rather than simply admitting that they willingly chose a different path in life, but they could have chased my same opportunities with largely the same financial outcome. Let’s suppose everyone did this, how do you see it turning out? Who will do all of the other things?
- deanmoriarty 5y ago
  I don’t want to dismiss your question, but to be honest I don’t know how to answer it. Maybe if everyone did it new arbitrage opportunities would arise so that it would become more lucrative to move somewhere else where there is a demand for services that nobody is doing anymore? But I am not an economist so I am not interested in reading 50 pedantic comments about how my previous sentence is inaccurate. I do not concern myself with non-practical (in my opinion) matters because I know that the vast majority of people will not take that path, so it’s likely not an issue.
  - endisneigh 5y ago
    What...? You said: > rather than simply admitting that they willingly chose a different path in life, but they could have chased my same opportunities with largely the same financial outcome. But then you also say > I do not concern myself with non-practical (in my opinion) matters The "concern" is your own advice.
    - deanmoriarty 5y ago
      I find your comment incredibly pedantic (just my opinion, no offense). In my opinion, a practical matter is a single person (specifically, one of my peers in my home country complaining about my compensation without taking any action) deciding to make sacrifices to immigrate to the US. A non-practical matter is worrying about everyone in my home country deciding to do the same.
      - endisneigh 5y ago
        I don't see what's pedantic about it. Do you believe someone who were to try to take the same path as you could have the same financial outcome today? How would it change if they couldn't get to the USA?
        deanmoriarty 5y ago
        > Do you believe someone who were to try to take the same path as you could have the same financial outcome today? Yes, I do believe that, the odds of legally entering the US with a CS degree are still largely the same of when I entered a few years ago and are reasonably attainable with enough perseverance over a few years, there are different academic and worker visas that can all be used to get a foot in the door. Also, the job demand is significantly higher today than it used to be a few years ago. New grads can make $200k+ compensation, my comp as a new grad was like $35k and I still did fine. Naturally going down this path will require significant sacrifices, as per my original comment. You need to be willing to be very frugal and likely move away from parents, friends and family, and not knowing for many years what your final immigration status will be (as you move from temporary visas to permanent visas to green card etc.). In my case, it also means no kids, no car, etc. (similar life as the author, I assume). My whole point, let’s please not forget, is that on average people are not willing to make the above sacrifices but they still like to loudly complain when folks share articles like this one. > How would it change if they couldn't get to the USA? The odds are good they will, in my opinion. If they won’t, there are other options. Sampling my friends: - if you are slightly more entrepreneurial, move to another tax-favorable country like Malta (similar tax rates as US) and contract with American companies, with financial outcomes largely similar to mine. - if you just want a typical employee experience, Canada is also a really good option that many of my European friends who didn’t want to go through the US immigration gauntlet chose, and they are doing very well. Once again, all these decisions take sacrifices but they are relatively attainable.
blastonico 5y ago
+1 I'm a typical average joe, but I love reading these because I'm learning from them what to do when I have such resource. Yeah, there're people luckier than me, but I'm increasing my odds in a variety of endeavors and improving my skills. I'm far from my goal yet, but results are very encouraging so far.
- barbazoo 5y ago
  Learning what though? Rake in half a million in salary a year, save most of it? No shit, I had no idea.
refurb 5y ago
As a fellow immigrant who never hit these kinds of incomes I agree. It’s an interesting read, the author is humble enough to realize his result involved a good portion of luck. I judge my own progress by where I was 10 years ago, not where some random internet author is today.
paulryanrogers 5y ago
My guess is some of the push back is because these kinds of articles seem tantalizingly prescriptive yet often bake in assumptions or choices that are unattainable for most. Things like be born smart enough to land 6 figure job (or high 5 figures 20yo), be born into the middle/upper class, don't have extended family dependencies, don't have kids, don't have an SO or find one willing accept all the constraints, accept living in modest accomodations for the duration, or that now is roughly the same as when they started.
rexreed 5y ago
The reason why I think these articles score poorly is because I think my reaction is like most reactions (not all, but most). I read the article, saw the salary table, did an eyeroll, and then skimmed the rest. The article can be summed up as "get a high paying job in a career that requires technical skills, save more than you spend, and invest what you save". Did I miss anything in that summarization?
- mirker 5y ago
  The part where their salary wasn’t very good in the salary table; you have to play the market, which is currently favorable toward software engineering. I’m not sure what people are expecting. Eating rice and beans on $100k is still less than $100k savings.
- Aeolun 5y ago
  > Did I miss anything in that summarization? Have no children? Not only because they eat money, but your priorities will do a complete 180.
  - rexreed 5y ago
    And also, the article says "don't buy a house". I put both of these into the principle of save more than you spend. Some of us consider those necessities in life, however, and we're willing to make the necessary tradeoffs.
    - ac29 5y ago
      The article doesn't say "don't buy a house", it says there are pros and cons to home ownership, which is true. Buying and selling homes is extremely expensive - it doesnt make sense for someone who wants to have the ability to move with little friction. Its also putting a lot of one's financial resources into a single asset. A housing market downturn could be financially ruinous, a series of expensive repairs could easily cost far more than an entire year's of rent. Property tax, maintenance, and potential HOA fees mean that even after paying off your mortgage, you're never actually free of ongoing housing expenses. However, if you have kids or other ties to an area, owning housing can help make your expenses both lower and more predictable than renting. Over long enough periods of time, the housing market also tends to go up, which means it can be a good investment.
giantg2 5y ago
"I do not understand why articles like these consistently score poorly on HN?" Because the article pisses me off. This is not something helpful to us average peasants. No shit you can become a multimillionaire if you're pulling in over half a million per year. Maybe some of the advice I'd good, but it would be worth more coming from someone who actually is average so we can see it as evidence. Otherwise it's some rich person telling us what works based on their theory and an experience that's nothing like our's.
- AYBABTME 5y ago
  The average joe who'd write this blogpost wouldn't be an average joe anymore. The reality is that most of us in tech can aspire to the author's outcome, with high probability of success. The odds are stacked in our favor. If we're willing to do the moves and do the "sacrifices", most of us can pull it off. But in the end you need the right attitude, and some advice about good strategies, like the author is giving out. I think the cynical perspective is entirely exaggerated in the software industry. It's also an awful way to look at things, almost guaranteeing a self-fulfilling prophecy.
  - giantg2 5y ago
    "The reality is that most of us in tech can aspire to the author's outcome, with high probability of success." This simply isn't true. Most people cannot retire after 12 years of working, even in tech. The median software dev salary in the US is about $105k. You cannot reasonably earn $2.4M when you make about half of that during those 12 years.
    - AYBABTME 5y ago
      It's not hard to move up the quantiles if you put the effort. It doesn't require ivy league education, a rich family, or a particularly genius mind. The mean salary is useless in quantifying wether you, as an individual, have any agency in influencing your outcome. Your attitude toward it, however, has a lot to do with it. And surely starting with the assumption that it's impossible doesn't put the odds in your favor. In any case, 105k median income just goes to tell how big the opportunity is.
sakopov 5y ago
Well, ultimately it's about the advice here. If someone asks you how to achieve financial independence and you tell them to just make half a mil working at FAANG, your advice is going to get filed under the "no shit" folder. I also don't quite follow how the author claims to have achieved financial independence while relying on a $600K/yr salary from Amazon. This isn't the type of content folks usually expect. I think for most people it'll be about using their salaries to their potential via smart investing and compounding, while focusing their free time on generating alternative streams of income which will supplement their existing salary. I think this is the foundation of most "financial independence" stories. With that said, I do think that the article is very inspirational to most engineers on here. I'm a fellow immigrant who has achieved a bit in my life in the US, but not nearly as much in terms of salary. I'm still grateful and very content knowing that the ceiling is as high as I pretty much want it to be.

endisneigh 5y ago

> rather than simply admitting that they willingly chose a different path in life, but they could have chased my same opportunities with largely the same financial outcome. Let’s suppose everyone did this, how do you see it turning out? Who will do all of the other things?

deanmoriarty 5y ago
I don’t want to dismiss your question, but to be honest I don’t know how to answer it. Maybe if everyone did it new arbitrage opportunities would arise so that it would become more lucrative to move somewhere else where there is a demand for services that nobody is doing anymore? But I am not an economist so I am not interested in reading 50 pedantic comments about how my previous sentence is inaccurate. I do not concern myself with non-practical (in my opinion) matters because I know that the vast majority of people will not take that path, so it’s likely not an issue.
- endisneigh 5y ago
  What...? You said: > rather than simply admitting that they willingly chose a different path in life, but they could have chased my same opportunities with largely the same financial outcome. But then you also say > I do not concern myself with non-practical (in my opinion) matters The "concern" is your own advice.
  - deanmoriarty 5y ago
    I find your comment incredibly pedantic (just my opinion, no offense). In my opinion, a practical matter is a single person (specifically, one of my peers in my home country complaining about my compensation without taking any action) deciding to make sacrifices to immigrate to the US. A non-practical matter is worrying about everyone in my home country deciding to do the same.
    - endisneigh 5y ago
      I don't see what's pedantic about it. Do you believe someone who were to try to take the same path as you could have the same financial outcome today? How would it change if they couldn't get to the USA?
      - deanmoriarty 5y ago
        > Do you believe someone who were to try to take the same path as you could have the same financial outcome today? Yes, I do believe that, the odds of legally entering the US with a CS degree are still largely the same of when I entered a few years ago and are reasonably attainable with enough perseverance over a few years, there are different academic and worker visas that can all be used to get a foot in the door. Also, the job demand is significantly higher today than it used to be a few years ago. New grads can make $200k+ compensation, my comp as a new grad was like $35k and I still did fine. Naturally going down this path will require significant sacrifices, as per my original comment. You need to be willing to be very frugal and likely move away from parents, friends and family, and not knowing for many years what your final immigration status will be (as you move from temporary visas to permanent visas to green card etc.). In my case, it also means no kids, no car, etc. (similar life as the author, I assume). My whole point, let’s please not forget, is that on average people are not willing to make the above sacrifices but they still like to loudly complain when folks share articles like this one. > How would it change if they couldn't get to the USA? The odds are good they will, in my opinion. If they won’t, there are other options. Sampling my friends: - if you are slightly more entrepreneurial, move to another tax-favorable country like Malta (similar tax rates as US) and contract with American companies, with financial outcomes largely similar to mine. - if you just want a typical employee experience, Canada is also a really good option that many of my European friends who didn’t want to go through the US immigration gauntlet chose, and they are doing very well. Once again, all these decisions take sacrifices but they are relatively attainable.

blastonico 5y ago

+1 I'm a typical average joe, but I love reading these because I'm learning from them what to do when I have such resource. Yeah, there're people luckier than me, but I'm increasing my odds in a variety of endeavors and improving my skills. I'm far from my goal yet, but results are very encouraging so far.

barbazoo 5y ago
Learning what though? Rake in half a million in salary a year, save most of it? No shit, I had no idea.

refurb 5y ago

As a fellow immigrant who never hit these kinds of incomes I agree. It’s an interesting read, the author is humble enough to realize his result involved a good portion of luck. I judge my own progress by where I was 10 years ago, not where some random internet author is today.

paulryanrogers 5y ago

My guess is some of the push back is because these kinds of articles seem tantalizingly prescriptive yet often bake in assumptions or choices that are unattainable for most. Things like be born smart enough to land 6 figure job (or high 5 figures 20yo), be born into the middle/upper class, don't have extended family dependencies, don't have kids, don't have an SO or find one willing accept all the constraints, accept living in modest accomodations for the duration, or that now is roughly the same as when they started.

rexreed 5y ago

The reason why I think these articles score poorly is because I think my reaction is like most reactions (not all, but most). I read the article, saw the salary table, did an eyeroll, and then skimmed the rest. The article can be summed up as "get a high paying job in a career that requires technical skills, save more than you spend, and invest what you save". Did I miss anything in that summarization?

mirker 5y ago
The part where their salary wasn’t very good in the salary table; you have to play the market, which is currently favorable toward software engineering. I’m not sure what people are expecting. Eating rice and beans on $100k is still less than $100k savings.
Aeolun 5y ago
> Did I miss anything in that summarization? Have no children? Not only because they eat money, but your priorities will do a complete 180.
- rexreed 5y ago
  And also, the article says "don't buy a house". I put both of these into the principle of save more than you spend. Some of us consider those necessities in life, however, and we're willing to make the necessary tradeoffs.
  - ac29 5y ago
    The article doesn't say "don't buy a house", it says there are pros and cons to home ownership, which is true. Buying and selling homes is extremely expensive - it doesnt make sense for someone who wants to have the ability to move with little friction. Its also putting a lot of one's financial resources into a single asset. A housing market downturn could be financially ruinous, a series of expensive repairs could easily cost far more than an entire year's of rent. Property tax, maintenance, and potential HOA fees mean that even after paying off your mortgage, you're never actually free of ongoing housing expenses. However, if you have kids or other ties to an area, owning housing can help make your expenses both lower and more predictable than renting. Over long enough periods of time, the housing market also tends to go up, which means it can be a good investment.

giantg2 5y ago

"I do not understand why articles like these consistently score poorly on HN?" Because the article pisses me off. This is not something helpful to us average peasants. No shit you can become a multimillionaire if you're pulling in over half a million per year. Maybe some of the advice I'd good, but it would be worth more coming from someone who actually is average so we can see it as evidence. Otherwise it's some rich person telling us what works based on their theory and an experience that's nothing like our's.

AYBABTME 5y ago
The average joe who'd write this blogpost wouldn't be an average joe anymore. The reality is that most of us in tech can aspire to the author's outcome, with high probability of success. The odds are stacked in our favor. If we're willing to do the moves and do the "sacrifices", most of us can pull it off. But in the end you need the right attitude, and some advice about good strategies, like the author is giving out. I think the cynical perspective is entirely exaggerated in the software industry. It's also an awful way to look at things, almost guaranteeing a self-fulfilling prophecy.
- giantg2 5y ago
  "The reality is that most of us in tech can aspire to the author's outcome, with high probability of success." This simply isn't true. Most people cannot retire after 12 years of working, even in tech. The median software dev salary in the US is about $105k. You cannot reasonably earn $2.4M when you make about half of that during those 12 years.
  - AYBABTME 5y ago
    It's not hard to move up the quantiles if you put the effort. It doesn't require ivy league education, a rich family, or a particularly genius mind. The mean salary is useless in quantifying wether you, as an individual, have any agency in influencing your outcome. Your attitude toward it, however, has a lot to do with it. And surely starting with the assumption that it's impossible doesn't put the odds in your favor. In any case, 105k median income just goes to tell how big the opportunity is.

sakopov 5y ago

Well, ultimately it's about the advice here. If someone asks you how to achieve financial independence and you tell them to just make half a mil working at FAANG, your advice is going to get filed under the "no shit" folder. I also don't quite follow how the author claims to have achieved financial independence while relying on a $600K/yr salary from Amazon. This isn't the type of content folks usually expect. I think for most people it'll be about using their salaries to their potential via smart investing and compounding, while focusing their free time on generating alternative streams of income which will supplement their existing salary. I think this is the foundation of most "financial independence" stories. With that said, I do think that the article is very inspirational to most engineers on here. I'm a fellow immigrant who has achieved a bit in my life in the US, but not nearly as much in terms of salary. I'm still grateful and very content knowing that the ceiling is as high as I pretty much want it to be.