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Lithuania evacuates its embassy in China

583 points by baylearn 5y ago

doe88 5y ago
Kind of background information on the topic: https://www.lse.ac.uk/ideas/podcasts/chinas-foreign-policy-in-central-europe https://www.lse.ac.uk/ideas/podcasts/chinas-foreign-policy-i...
gytdev 5y ago
Lithuanian here. The situation in our country is very strange. I haven't seen so much chaos. This pro-USA anti-CCP propaganda is hurting us practically a lot. Current situation in Lithuania: -We have a big real-estate price boom, because people are putting all of their savings to real-estate, because money is losing value due to USA recently printing ludicrous amounts of money. Housing market is getting crazy. -Prices of imported products are also going up because of the supply shortages in the market. Let's face it - Europe is dependent on China. A lot. And if only Lithuania take a stance against it, only we are going to take the hits. -wages are increasing, but not as much as prices are going up. For me it seems that the only ones that are getting the benefits for these anti-CCP stunts are the politicians and their groupies, who are getting patted on the back by USA, other ideologists and pro-"Lansbergis" (our foreign ministers grandfathers cult) people. Me and my dad have a small business importing high-quality electrical products from China (yes China sells good products too. We tested them in laboratories). This political tension is not good. We are considering options to import not to Lithuania, but to Poland instead
hamilyon2 5y ago
https://archive.md/LO5Yk https://archive.md/LO5Yk
thegreatdukd 5y ago
> But the Baltic republic points to its long history of standing up to bullying foreigners, including Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union Not sure about that. Against Soviet Union surely, but Nazis not at all.
- enkid 5y ago
  There were certainly resisters and collaborators with both the Soviets and the Germans.
  - mantas 5y ago
    To be fair were was little anti-Nazi resistance. The general notion was that Soviets will be back in no time. So better not waste resources on fighting Nazis.
- lmilcin 5y ago
  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania...
- odiroot 5y ago
  You better support it with some good source.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- mantas 5y ago
  Lithuania did sentence some Nazis in 1935 to deter Germany in Klaipėda/Memel. Then managed to hold onto it till spring of 1939. Then refused Hitler offer to join attacking Poland. In 1941-1944 people tried to stay away from Nazis and keep a fighting chance against Soviets once they’ll be back. For example Lithuanian SS division was never formed as in other occupied territories. While Germans did push for it, locals actively sabotaged it to have more men for coming anti-Soviet resistance. Now standing up to Soviets.. while 1944-1952 was pretty decent, summer of 1940 was rather sad.
  - varjag 5y ago
    > Then refused Hitler offer to join attacking Poland. Which is more than what the ostensibly anti-fascist USSR did.
lmilcin 5y ago
There is a simple solution. If most of western world allowed Taiwan embassies China would have to relent. They can't afford having entire western world stand against them. Unfortunately, that would require western nations to agree on something.
- jeidz 5y ago
  They can. The western world can’t afford to be without China’s manufacturing, though.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Yes, and that's the problem. The West will not go, and die without one xmass season, and a new Iphone 99. But Western elites all holding stocks of companies valued in trillions will do. I requires a healthy conversation in society about this. It will come to a time when people will have to decide what to do with these people. Potential adversaries now do things which just 15 years ago would've meant a real hot war with the whole Western world by leveraging their financial influence on Western elites, and a threat of bankrupting them.
    - pokepim 5y ago
      I hate that China vs US thing comes down to race things, like it’s us white americans vs those bad chinese. Even American companies are now bad since they dare to sell to chinese people and only care about profits but not the fragile white american ego. It’s especially visible on Hacker News, asian bashing is so common but I guess it’s mostly due to demographics (right wing white americans mostly lurk forums like these, just remember how BLM movement was discussed here). What a farce
      - ipaddr 5y ago
        You realize many American are from Chinese decent. Not selling to a citizen of China regardless of race (not all Chinese are from the same race) is much different than not selling to anyone who has a Chinese gene. The nation state you think China and the US to be doesn't exist.
BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
China pretending to be the victim of Lithuanian bullying really is a farce more ridiculous than usual.
- adamnemecek 5y ago
  Worst thing to happen to China since the Sino-Albanian split https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Albanian_split https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Albanian_split
  - vmception 5y ago
    Tragedy that upset geopolitics and trade relations for half a century (sarcasm about China’s extra behavior)
- Raed667 5y ago
  The cynicism of China foreign policy never ceases to amaze
  - bettysdiagnose 5y ago
    It's like they want the rest of the world to hate them.
    - koolba 5y ago
      Not quite. They just don’t care what anybody else thinks outside of game theory analysis of how they will act. If the country was a person, we’d label their personality as a high functioning manipulative sociopath.
      - toomuchtodo 5y ago
        And yet, we don’t do what is best practice for dealing with such an actor: disengage. We (the US primarily, but also the rest of the developed world) have a tremendous opportunity with a still productive labor force and cheap capital to boot up manufacturing capacity we offshored to China, and we won’t have the chance again when China decides to act against other countries (economically or militarily).
someguydave 5y ago
Europeans were quick to scorn Mr Trump’s policies but the reality is that China has been unfair in its trade practices. Also, losing liberty in Hong Kong was sad but it will be much worse if free Taiwan is crushed by CCP ambition. The West should have alot of introspection about which battles are the right ones to choose. How will history judge the current leadership of the West if they abandon Taiwan?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- yardie 5y ago
  If you are the referring to Trump cancelling TPP it was a dumb move that only emboldened China. The TPP was supposed to be the US and 12 smaller Asian nations vs China. TPP was created because of China's unfair trade practices and Trump dismantled it. No one needs to rewrite his history. The guy was a complete fucking disaster.
  - tata71 5y ago
    Did you miss the draconian international copyright regime that it would have put into place etc?
    - unmole 5y ago
      Right, that was why the US refused to join the TPP...
    - yardie 5y ago
      I agree, it shouldn't have been in there. But that is only tangential to the reason why Trump pulled the US out of it. He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals.
      - rendall 5y ago
        > He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals. Would you mind expanding on this? I could only find articles describing a bank account opened in China, that indicate only a little less than $500k business per year. What do you know?
jinguang 5y ago
台湾是中国永久不可分割的一部分，它只是中国台湾省。立陶宛触碰了红线，当然要付出代价。立陶宛甘愿作为美国的炮灰。中国只是拿美国对待中国的方法回敬而已。
RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
Why "evacuate"? Were the safety of the embassy's staff under threat? I can't help but wonder if the word was deliberately chosen for click-baiting --- the only three occurrences of "evacuate/evacuation", including the one in the title, are concentrated in the second and third paragraphs --- it is as if they are injected as a last-minute after-thought.
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
  > Were the safety of the embassy's staff under threat? Seems they didn't want to risk it. > Not knowing whether the staff would retain diplomatic immunity, and not accepting its embassy’s demotion, Lithuania told all diplomats and dependants to keep their cards and leave the next day on an Air China flight to Paris.
- factorialboy 5y ago
  Yes. China is known to use undisclosed radiation weapons against diplomats. US diplomats have suffered on multiple occasions.
  - rhn_mk1 5y ago
    Sources?
    - mtmail 5y ago
      5min searching for sources ... Might be a mixup with sonic weapons. "An employee at the U.S. Embassy in Guangzhou, China, allegedly suffered mild traumatic brain injury after hearing a vague and abnormal sound" https://www.theepochtimes.com/with-sonic-weapon-attack-china-demonstrates-experimental-program_2539742.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/with-sonic-weapon-attack-china...
      - RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
        Well, one should note that The Epoch Times is brought to you by the propaganda arm of the anti-CCP Falun gong.
subroutine 5y ago
China would be much better off if they just gave up on the whole Taiwan charade. I understand how badly they want to put Taiwan under thumb like they did HK, but Taiwan is really the only issue I foresee with potential to derail China's progress.
- gedy 5y ago
  Yeah I don't see the point or value at this stage. They control their media tightly, and if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care. They've proven they don't need Taiwan and vice versa.
  - manquer 5y ago
    Control of South China sea is far too important for china to ignore Taiwan, also Taiwan's dominance in chip design/manufacturing would give china enormous influence over the world.
  - mark_l_watson 5y ago
    +1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also. A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China, but really I am just reacting to how wonderful the people there were when my wife and I travelled in China, and I also really respect their AI tech, their tech in general, and how so many people have moved out of poverty. It is just their current government that I don’t like.
    - imiric 5y ago
      Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power. The people of China choose to allow CCP to run their country. If they were so different ideologically the CCP would no longer exist. Countries with orders of magnitude less people struggle to remain united. The fact 1.4 billion people can be represented by the same political party speaks to the strong ideological ties that are shared by most Chinese people. I would argue that those ideologies were implanted by decades of brainwashing and totalitarianism, but how it was achieved doesn't change that fact. So, yes, your experience and likely many others' is with good people. Countries are not exclusively bad or good. We can recognize those good traits that China has as a nation. But it would be wrong to also not criticize the bad aspects, and sweep them under the rug as the CCP constantly tries to do. The rampant economic and moral corruption, overfishing of world's waters and general disregard for animal life and nature, disregard for human life, widespread racism and xenophobia, isolationism, etc. These are not only governmental issues, but part of the modern Chinese culture that taints whatever good aspects we can celebrate. Undoubtedly comparisons to the US will be made, but at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly, without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments. The US government will persecute whistleblowers for airing its dirty laundry, but we've known that for decades. I fear a world where the dominant superpower has such a culture and is closed to criticism—not only because of its oppressive government, but because of its people.
albeva 5y ago
I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Wonder if China would kick out every single EU nation embassy then?
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
  If they did that, I hope they would coordinate the timing with America first. It would be American forces, not so much the EU, that would be helping Taiwan defend against the invasion that would probably follow.
  - albeva 5y ago
    While true, it is often ignored that combined EU does possess a huge, highly advanced and well trained military force. So more than that I'd hope EU can then put its squabbling aside and respong in unison to any military provocation as well.
    - mantas 5y ago
      How many aircraft careers does EU have? Especially after Brexit...
      - qnsi 5y ago
        4, which is more than China has.
      - angrygoat 5y ago
        Seven: France (4) Italy (2) Spain (1) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_s...
        BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
        That count is a bit deceptive, France has a single aircraft carrier with fixed-wing aircraft, the Charles de Gaulle. The other three are Mistral-class amphibious assault ships with helicopters.
hirundo 5y ago
I think the right response to these provocations is to assist Taiwan in protecting itself. Essentially we should reverse the betrayal of Taiwan by Nixon in 1972, when he withdrew the US nuclear presence there. This time, to protect from changing political winds, the nukes should be under the control of Taiwan. Nothing much else will deter China.
- throwaway12345n 5y ago
  I fully agree. And the chinese should put nuclear nukes on cuba as well under the control of the cuban regime.
- BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
  Taiwan could likely develop their own native nuclear weapons in a matter of months, if they chose to. They have a mature nuclear industry with several reactors, and likely already have plans for nuclear weapons drawn up.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    You're forgetting about Chinese intelligence. It would never work once the Chinese notice and it would only provide an actually valid casus belli
    - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
      China could accuse Taiwan of developing nuclear weapons today, saying their spies uncovered the plot. Would you, I or anybody else be able to refute it? Would our doubt matter? And if Taiwan really did start manufacturing nuclear bombs and China was telling the truth about it, would you, I or others in the West believe them? The 'actual validity' of a casus belli has never really counted for much.
      - sudosysgen 5y ago
        The difference is that, if they actually did start manufacturing the bomb, China would almost certainly be able to provide incontrovertible evidence. If they didn't provide evidence, yes, we coule refute it. The West will pretend that Taiwan wasn't doing that anyways. That's why I said 80%.
maxdo 5y ago
Hope this Russian-Ukraine tensions, also China-Taiwan tensions will open eyes of western world like it happened with Europe during WWII. Collapse of Soviet Union influenced western world badly. They relaxed and eased requirements whom to work with. We need at least to introduce tyranny tax, same as carbon tax. That will give a good boost of local economies also gives a proper signal to the entire world.
- croes 5y ago
  That's naive world view. Putin wouldn't have happened with capitalist errors under Yelzin. And the west never cared about whom to work with as long the got their needed resources. And the west has a long tradition of using countries with lack of environmental and human rights to produce their products or get needed resources. We complain about Ukraine and Taiwan but about the Yemen we don't care. Because there seem to be good and bad tyrannies. Russia, China bad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar good. Iraq good as long they fought Iran, bad a soon as they attacked Qatar and threatened our oil.
  - maxdo 5y ago
    that's the same problem just some of them causing west troubles, some of them don't. The question is why we even allow to do so. Wasn't that clear in 2014 with russia that it's extremely aggressive? Kicking out russia from economy in 2014 would prevent such events. China also had so many times you can stop it, or at least put the world on other track. it's not about capitalism. Current time is the most close to WWIII , if Russia and China will decide to attack Ukraine and Taiwan right now. What would west do? Most likely the answer is nothing. You just need to hit hard. And that's how WWII started.
    - croes 5y ago
      >economy in 2014 would prevent such events So they would not have to lose? That's a guaranteed way to war. Mutual dependence prevents wars. >You just need to hit hard. And then? We are talking about nuclear powers here? What will happen when their backs are against the wall and they don't have much to lose?
United857 5y ago
China can get away with their diplomatic isolation of Taiwan due to the large economic power imbalance between the two. We never saw this with North /South Korea, nor West/East Germany. Countries recognized both as sovereign. There was no "Korean Seoul" or "German Bonn" competing at the Olympics, etc. If anything, West Germany or South Korea could've done what China is doing now but they chose not to.
- luckylion 5y ago
  > There was no "Korean Seoul" or "German Bonn" competing at the Olympics, etc. Are you aware that both China and Taiwan claim to be the legal government of both countries? Because that's completely different from Germany or Korea, where the states recognized each other.
  - dustintrex 5y ago
    For what it's worth, I don't believe West Germany ever formally recognized East Germany. The closest was allowing a state visit from Honecker in 1987.
    - luckylion 5y ago
      They signed an agreement in the early 70ies ("Grundlagenvertrag") outlining their relationships and had mutual defacto-embassies ("Ständige Vertretung") and called the heads of those ambassadors (at least the GDR did, I believe the FRG did not, but they were ambassadors for all intents and purposes).
      - dustintrex 5y ago
        That does not sound hugely different from China and Taiwan, which, despite the bluster, also de facto recognize each other in all sorts of ways like having quasi-diplomatic representatives, issuing travel documents to each other's citizens, etc.
        5y ago
footlose_3815 5y ago
[dead]
yeetman21 5y ago
My take on the whole China issue is this: no country actually cares about humans rights or any of that stuff but only about their national self interests and that most people do not actually care about humans rights, but only about their own personal self interests. China is a rising power in the world and wants to at least be the primary power in its region (maybe the world, who knows), and the USA as the primary power in the world and the region wants to keep its position. The US and China also have a symbiotic relationship, China would not be able to be in the position it is today if not for American purchases, and Americans would not have the quality of life they currently enjoy if they did not have Chinese manufacturing. Both countries know they cannot be openly hostile to each-other without huge ramifications so they use proxy conflicts to try to secretly bludgeon each other and propagandize their own populations. Americans can propagandize their population with HK, Taiwan, concentration camps, no freedom and Chinese can propagandize their population with drone strikes, Century of humiliation, US Imperialism... Nobody, except the misled population (who are being propagandized) or extremely dim-witted subsets of elites (who are doing the propaganda, and go high of their own supply so to say) actually care about these issues. I do not think this will be as hot as the last cold war since the US and China are way more interdependent than the US and the USSR and the way to make sure that this semi-cold war will not turn into a hot war is to not trying to break the interdependence, but to strengthen it.
- ackkshually 5y ago
  ^ the only smart comment in this entire thread.
- Aunche 5y ago
  >Nobody, except the misled population (who are being propagandized) or extremely dim-witted subsets of elites (who are doing the propaganda, and go high of their own supply so to say) actually care about these issues. IMO, this is a much bigger problem for Western nations. They want to pressure Hollywood and the NBA to take a stand against China, but that is exactly what China wants. They don't get any economic value from importing entertainment, so they would much rather that money circulate domestically. This is exactly what happened in with H&M and Nike when they started to look into Xinjiang forced labor. China had an excuse to encourage a consumer boycott, but they happily continued to manufacture for them, widening our trade deficit.
hollowturtle 5y ago
On Taiwan: the more the Chinese government talks publicy about it, the more is clear they can’t/not able to do so imo. It’s just ccp propaganda, you dont announce out loud military plans
noisy_boy 5y ago
I find it satisfying that while the so-called super powers routinely either turn a blind eye or pay lip service or worse, bend over backwards to accommodate China's bullying behaviour, of all the mighty countries, Lithuania showed some spine (irrespective of whether the reasons were based on principles or something else).
djoldman 5y ago
I'm not sure what China's problem is, they should just recall their territory's office in Lithuania. /s
nabla9 5y ago
China has had only one leader who was educated in the West: Deng Xiaoping. Deng was sent to Paris in 1920 when he was 16 where he attented middle schools, in 1926 he studied in Moscow. He moved back to China in 1927. Deng understood the West and was able to advance Chinese interests. Xi Jinping is complete opposite of Deng. Xi has no understanding of other cultures. Russia under Putin bullies and plays brinkmanship due to political weakness. That seems to work for them under the circumstances. Chine under Xi bullies because they are incompetent. China under Xi can't even bully right. Wolf Warrior tactics of Chinese diplomats works against Chinese interest. Nobody is scared and everyone wants to resist.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  Xi spent multiple years living (correction, only a few weeks) in the US. You are off the mark. There are other, much more complex reasons in play.
  - baybal2 5y ago
    Hsi Chinping only spent 2 weeks in US on a work trip. There are no complex reasons at play.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      It is true, he did not spend a few years, I misremembered. Still, this is not from a lack of understanding of the West. There a lot of complex strategic factors that mean that China cannot abandon the idea of holding Taiwan, which means either war or the One China Policy, which requires the behaviour we're seeing now.
      - nabla9 5y ago
        I was talking about Wolf Warrior diplomacy. It's idiotic tactic now matter what way you look at it.
motiejus 5y ago
I am Lithuanian; Lithuania<->Taiwan<->PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers. My position, shared by a few others, is that this is the next best thing that happened in Lithuania after leaving USSR: the first being joining NATO and EU in 2004. Everyone in the world can (and almost everyone do) endorse PRC. "You won't get fired for picking IBM/Oracle/PRC". While very few countries have the guts and the internal political structure that allows opening a Taiwanese representative office. Lithuania shows that it prefers dealing with a country that takes the human rights into account; being the first one "in the party" to do so bring us significant advantages. Both Taiwanese investments and Lithuanian exports to Taiwan are picking up pace. This will hurt us in the short-term, sure. It already does: packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there. In the long term, if we don't change our mind (not impossible), I think this is for the better.
- antattack 5y ago
  It's impossible to do that for larger countries, cooperation with China is the only way. Large economies are too tightly coupled to just cut China off. It would take a decade or two.
  - notpachet 5y ago
    Sunk cost fallacy. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of how much pain you're willing to bear for your principles.
    - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
      my bet is on "no more than the current situation" which is already causing big social issues in all western countries.
    - antattack 5y ago
      We were fine profiting off from their lack of principals and were looking the other way for decades. There's no point for sudden drastic measures. Another thing to keep in mind: any serious confrontation with China will be exploited by Russia. They already have made their moves known. I think Musk was right on China recently, basically said that we have to come to terms with new reality, on both sides: https://youtu.be/lSD_vpfikbE?t=2038 https://youtu.be/lSD_vpfikbE?t=2038
Pmop 5y ago
> packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there I think the whole western world should stop playing games with the bully state that is PRC.
- rayiner 5y ago
  Who is China bullying except it’s own people?
  - xwolfi 5y ago
    Taiwanese people?
  - lui8906 5y ago
    Look to their diplomatic behavior around the South China Sea for the last couple of decades.
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      The US views itself as the enforcer of UNCLOS for all navigable bodies of water in the entire world, a treaty it hasn't ratified. It has tons of military bases in the SCS, a region not even close to it, compared to the furor when it becomes possible that China might build a single military base along Africa's atlantic coast. It seems like a bit of a double standard to me. I wish a good faith discussion about China was possible here, but I think that HN swings pretty jingoistic on these issues.
      - scottLobster 5y ago
        What-aboutisms and calling people jingoist. Who exactly do you think you're convincing other than yourself? Point me to the last time the US used its navy to directly threaten merchant shipping.
        syki 5y ago
synergy20 5y ago
Here is a perspective on China's current aggressiveness: those in power are from the culture-revolution age(1966-1976), which means they did not get good education(if anything at all). Most of them are not even middle-school graduates. Their youth time are filled with beating those well educated ones based on ideologies accusations. Xi himself did not even finish middle school, his professional skill is the worst comparing to his past peers, he could not even read correctly many times in public since he came in power.
- deusum 5y ago
  I couldn't imagine country run by a middle school bully. Now I can.
  - picture 5y ago
    As someone who have spent 13 or so years of their life in China, I absolutely agree with this perspective. The culture of modern China seem to support a strangely "macho" image particularly for men: it's acceptable and maybe even encouraged, for men to be overtaken by rage, and thrash and kick around while yelling things. [1] It looks like this mentality is reflected by the politics of china as a whole. [1]: This is actually very accurate to how people get angry in China, I've seen teachers, businessmen, even customers, rage in this characteristic weirdly macho way. https://youtu.be/aCdFec3uu_g https://youtu.be/aCdFec3uu_g
    - whimsicalism 5y ago
      ? I honestly don't see anything in this video that I wouldn't see in expressions of anger in the US, except that they are speaking a mix of chinese and english.
    - mads 5y ago
      This is also my experience. Except I have seen it a lot with females also. Maybe because my family in law is Chinese I am more exposed to it. China sure has a lot of empty very loud barrels.
    - 5y ago
ychw 5y ago
- alkonaut 5y ago
  That’s a bit too simplistic tbh. Let me try “China is evil and so is a large number of other countries including Russia, a lot of the Middle East and Central Asia. The others aren’t necessarily heroes but at least have free press…”
- monetus 5y ago
  Please take others in good faith and respond in kind - this forum isn't for low effort lambasting
pphysch 5y ago
1. Beijing rejects being merely the "workshop" of the unipolar world, embraces sovereignty (GFW), high quality development (HSR), technological innovation (4IR), including in the military space (space, cyber, hypersonics). Oh and BRI. 2. Washington doesn't like that because it will displace the unipolar moment. USA has been in economic decline for half a century while PRC has been on a dramatic rise. Washington tries to break up PRC like it's a too-big company, via hybrid warfare. It tries everything possible to politically destabilize Beijing, with propaganda being a cornerstone. 3. Washington enlists anyone available to achieve this goal, including washed-up NBA benchwarmers and irrelevant Eastern European countries. They are encouraged to adopt a foreign policy that is in line with Washington's desire to preserve unipolarity and therefore hostile to Beijing. Who knows what they get in return, because it certainly doesn't make any economic sense in the long-term. 4. When Beijing responds tit-for-tat, answering sanctions with sanctions, harassment with harassment, downgrade in relations with downgrade in relations, it's a simple matter of spinning PRC as the aggressor who acted first. Alternatively, "See See Pee Bad". Propaganda works and no one is immune.
- manuelabeledo 5y ago
  Both China and the US are trying to protect their interests, and both are aggressors. Making it look like this is some sort of US initiated warfare is insanely simplistic, and mostly wrong.
  - pphysch 5y ago
    > Making it look like this is some sort of US initiated warfare is insanely simplistic, and mostly wrong. It is a simplification, but it is mostly true. Washington has literally been trying to contain PRC's rise since it was born in 1949. Because duh, China has historically been the most prosperous civilization on the planet and they just got out from under the boot of Western/Japanese imperialism. War in Korea (and almost over Taiwan). Deny access to 1st island chain. Sino-Soviet split. War in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos. Scorched earth policy. Deny access to SEA. Transition to hybrid war (propaganda-driven psychological warfare) as PRC opened up under Deng. Tibet. Tiananmen Sq. (20 years of relative tolerance, Washington assuming PRC won't get uppity and will follow USSR's fate) Obama's "China Pivot", anti-BRICS campaign. South China Sea. Hong Kong. ETIM/Xinjiang. Taiwan. You can spin Beijing's responses to this containment strategy as "aggression", but frankly that doesn't make much sense unless you believe Washington is entitled to global hegemony. The fact is that Beijing has been consistently outplaying Washington since Mao. And that makes Washington extremely nervous and irrational.
alkonaut 5y ago
China has already started pressuring companies with manufacturing in China such as Continental, that they should get out of Lithuania or risk losing access to the Chinese market. This just goes to show one thing: western companies have to leave the Chinese market and all its money on the table. Unless you are ready to live under constant threat of political pressure/blackmail, risk being spied on, forced to censorship or forced to corruption, you can’t operate there (and obviously several other countries). The correct move for both companies and corporations is to be open from the beginning. Open about what you think about Taiwan, about Chinese politics and so on. If that leaves you in the cold - at least you aren’t already neck deep in investment in China. I don’t pity corporations that invest in China only to find themselves blackmailed into (say) having their maps app show Taiwan as a part of China. I wish more companies had the moral backbone to say “we’re going to annoy China by showing the correct world map starting in may, and if you don’t agree you should sell your stock now”.
- jeswin 5y ago
  > This just goes to show one thing: western companies have to leave the Chinese market and all its money on the table. Part of the problem is that executive compensation is more short-term results focused.
  - CRConrad 5y ago
    Feels more and more like that's part of many many problems, perhaps most of them. And usually not a particularly small part.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
nikkinana 5y ago
I love China
baka367 5y ago
A Lithuanian here Moral questions aside (as everyone here seems to focus on it), the people are split into roughly three camps: - Anti-vaxers: hate anything government because Vax-Pass, including the China oriented diplomacy - Libtards: love anything government and worship the leader of the main party. They celebrate this and openly bash China because their Leader said that it is good - Non-involved people - worry about the economic consequences to businesses and people's lives. Most of them would have a hard time finding Taiwan (probably even China) on a blank map. In my opinion: Our Minister of Foreign Affairs went into this without really understanding what it would mean to the CCP and what possible counter-actions they can take. Lithuania was hit more than the politicians expected and we are, essentially, alone in this fight (save for endorsements and pats on the back). I guess that we will be in a pretty rough spot in short-term, while mid/long term can go either way depending on how the western powers and Taiwan will act.
- mthoms 5y ago
  I stopped reading at “Libtards”. Which is a shame because it sounds like you might have some meaningful insight. Edit: Flagged for pointing out that childish snark (a clear violation of HN guidelines) ruined an otherwise good comment? Ok, then.
  - dang 5y ago
    The GP definitely shouldn't have included that provocation. But your comment did something worse: you singled out the provocation and reacted purely to that. That's blowing on the flames, and users correctly flagged it. What we want HN users to do is leave provocations where they find them, and respond/build on the most interesting things in a comment/article/topic instead. We even promoted this to the official guidelines recently (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article and rush to the thread to complain about it. Find something interesting to comment about instead. Perhaps it should say "article or post".
    - mthoms 5y ago
cosmodisk 5y ago
Lithuanian here too. I'm 100% certain PRC will try to inflict as much pain on my own country via some side pressure to larger companies that have footprint in the country or by pressing applying political pressure to other countries. Some say we just do what the US tell us. The others say we should shut up and know our place. But the reality is that this isn't Nazi Germany v2. It's a country that is unparallel in population. It also has tons of money and also capability to manufacture virtually anything. It also has so many people in concentration camps that the world just can't continue to ignore for the sake of having cheap pair of shoes. It's a bully. It won't stop with a little country in Baltics.
- eunos 5y ago
  Pressures for replacing Lithuanian products already started. Ironically, commerce between Taiwan and mainland do not show sign of weakness.
  - cosmodisk 5y ago
    The trade with Taiwan will unlikely to replace trade with China purely because of the scale of Chinese market, however it will hopefully act as an indicator of how things are to those who work/planning to with China.
k__ 5y ago
To me, the story of China and Taiwan sounds strange. It's like if the confederates lost the war, but simply kept Florida or if Nazi Germany lost, but kept Austria. I don't know how bad the Chinese nazionalists were back in the days, but I can kinda understand why the rest of China is unhappy about them.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  > It's like if the confederates lost the war, but simply kept Florida or if Nazi Germany lost, but kept Austria. Kind of a good analogy, but the wrong way around. China vs Taiwan is more like if the confederates won the civil war, but the Union kept Florida; or if Nazi Germany won WW2, but the Allies hung on in Austria. The communists never were the good guys.
yumraj 5y ago
Is there any list of Made in Lithuania products that I can buy in the US to show my support?
locallost 5y ago
Ideology is important and if they truly believe in this fight, more power to them. But it's not easy being a battering ram for somebody else, which seems like the more probable case.
mrtweetyhack 5y ago
Everything is cheap in China, especially talk
neonate 5y ago
https://archive.md/q2dNu https://archive.md/q2dNu
dehrmann 5y ago
> In November China unilaterally declared that each country’s respective embassy would be demoted to an office headed by a chargé d’affaires, or caretaker. Is this technically an invasion from China since the embassy grounds are theoretically soil of the embassy's country?
- joshlemer 5y ago
  No, this whole "embassy grounds are the guest country's territory" thing is a myth. There are special privileges granted to embassies, but they are not technically "foreign soil" or sovereign territory of the guest country.
- dragonwriter 5y ago
  > Is this technically an invasion from China since the embassy grounds are theoretically soil of the embassy's country? No, because: (1) embassy grounds are not soil of the embassy's country, even in theory. See, Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. (2) a place being an embassy is a matter of mutual agreement, not a permanent right with regard to the establishment.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
My Grandmother just turned 100 and grew up under the Nazi regime which controlled her island in Norway. All of her grandchildren would occasionally tease her about her staunch refusal to buy anything made in China due to their politics (to this day). I find it interesting that she may have been forward thinking about this.
throwaway_1_234 5y ago
As a Russian I am pretty biased, but I can't help but marvel at the West. Lithuania started this row over Taiwan. They literally pissed in China's eye, knowing full well what the Chinese response is going to be. But then, somehow, it's still China's fault for engaging in Cold War rhetoric and ratcheting up political aggression? I am sorry, but I don't buy it. The equivalent here would be China opening up a Scotland or a Catalonia embassy in Pekin to troll Spain/UK, then being surprised Spain/UK break off relations. This whole story also vividly reminds me of what the British did a few months back in the Black Sea. They knowingly sailed too close to Crimea, filmed our response (jets flying overhead, etc), then for weeks showed these clips to the world as proof of "Russian aggression against freedom in Europe." Wtf? Queue eye roll. I see the same dynamic playing out now with China now. You Westerners go out of your way to initiate conflict, then play the victim card. It's very strange. I don't understand it.
Palanquin 5y ago
As a Lithuanian, I have mixed feelings about this. From one side, I applaud my country for standing up to China. However, the rest of the EU seems to not be supporting us in taking strong position against China. This makes it easy for China to retaliate against Lithuania. The real issue, in my opinion, is that the EU and the rest of the world depend heavily on China for manufacturing goods. There is that great initiative in the EU to invest in the semiconductor industry so that we would manufacture them in the EU.
noirchen 5y ago
I feel it amused that people here are discussing what and how Lithuania and the west can do to 'confront' China, but everyone in east Asia knows that before the next Taiwan election in 2024, China will do something to achieve some sort of reunification, either by forcing the Taiwanese government back to the old One-China promise (which is unlikely because the pro-China KMT lost power long ago) or by toppling the pro-independence DPP government. And you people are seriously discussing the possibility that Taiwan goes nuclear, but it was in the KMT era after China had the bomb, Taiwan was considering building its own nuclear weapon, only to be quickly removed by the US. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to realize that the US has been selling Taiwan expensive out-of-date weapons, which is only logical if the US doesn't want Taiwan to defend itself. Taiwanese people know that, ever since the 70s when Taiwan was kicked off the UN and the US did nothing! Do you guys know the real sentiment in Taiwan? They are more like, "F*k the US, they treat us like pawns. F*k the west, they would give us anything but real support! F*k the government, they got us in such a bad position. F*k China, they want to annex us. F*k the 20% Taiwanese, they do business with China, in China, for China!"
- eloisius 5y ago
  I'm curious how you know the real sentiment in Taiwan, and also how you arrived at the conclusion that everyone in east Asia knows China will attempt unification before the next election? I live in Taiwan, and I've never met anyone that said fuck the U.S. for not offering real support. I've heard people acknowledge that the U.S. doesn't sell Taiwan the latest defense tech, but are also aware that Taiwan is a rich country and can afford to pay for its own defense. The U.S. shouldn't discourage Taiwan from developing its own capabilities. As for invasion within the next two years, I suppose none but some inner circle in China really knows, but that it's a guaranteed fact is not a consensus belief here. If it was true, people and money would be pouring out of Taiwan. From the outside, Taiwan sounds like a besieged island expecting incoming missiles any moment, but life is typical here. People are concerned with real estate prices, getting a promotion at work, construction noise in the neighborhood, climate change, etc. You'd think a place with such grim prospects about the future wouldn't have time to worry about animal welfare or environmentalism. However, any given weekend you can find thousands of volunteers going to clean up litter on beaches, or working in animal shelters.
thunkshift1 5y ago
Me speculation is Lithuania is ‘taking one for the team’ (EU) and doing what others are reluctant to. Any benefits from Taiwan - lithuania engagement will spill over to the block I guess. Kudos to them nevertheless
Koiwai 5y ago
Please do not post (shitty) politics in Hacker News, "even Stalin would tell you that you are making an error in politicizing technology."
deleted 5y ago
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583 points by baylearn 5y ago

Kind of background information on the topic: https://www.lse.ac.uk/ideas/podcasts/chinas-foreign-policy-in-central-europe https://www.lse.ac.uk/ideas/podcasts/chinas-foreign-policy-i...

gytdev 5y ago

Lithuanian here. The situation in our country is very strange. I haven't seen so much chaos. This pro-USA anti-CCP propaganda is hurting us practically a lot. Current situation in Lithuania: -We have a big real-estate price boom, because people are putting all of their savings to real-estate, because money is losing value due to USA recently printing ludicrous amounts of money. Housing market is getting crazy. -Prices of imported products are also going up because of the supply shortages in the market. Let's face it - Europe is dependent on China. A lot. And if only Lithuania take a stance against it, only we are going to take the hits. -wages are increasing, but not as much as prices are going up. For me it seems that the only ones that are getting the benefits for these anti-CCP stunts are the politicians and their groupies, who are getting patted on the back by USA, other ideologists and pro-"Lansbergis" (our foreign ministers grandfathers cult) people. Me and my dad have a small business importing high-quality electrical products from China (yes China sells good products too. We tested them in laboratories). This political tension is not good. We are considering options to import not to Lithuania, but to Poland instead

hamilyon2 5y ago

https://archive.md/LO5Yk https://archive.md/LO5Yk

thegreatdukd 5y ago

> But the Baltic republic points to its long history of standing up to bullying foreigners, including Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union Not sure about that. Against Soviet Union surely, but Nazis not at all.

enkid 5y ago
There were certainly resisters and collaborators with both the Soviets and the Germans.
- mantas 5y ago
  To be fair were was little anti-Nazi resistance. The general notion was that Soviets will be back in no time. So better not waste resources on fighting Nazis.
lmilcin 5y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania_during_World_War_II https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_occupation_of_Lithuania...
odiroot 5y ago
You better support it with some good source.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
mantas 5y ago
Lithuania did sentence some Nazis in 1935 to deter Germany in Klaipėda/Memel. Then managed to hold onto it till spring of 1939. Then refused Hitler offer to join attacking Poland. In 1941-1944 people tried to stay away from Nazis and keep a fighting chance against Soviets once they’ll be back. For example Lithuanian SS division was never formed as in other occupied territories. While Germans did push for it, locals actively sabotaged it to have more men for coming anti-Soviet resistance. Now standing up to Soviets.. while 1944-1952 was pretty decent, summer of 1940 was rather sad.
- varjag 5y ago
  > Then refused Hitler offer to join attacking Poland. Which is more than what the ostensibly anti-fascist USSR did.

lmilcin 5y ago

There is a simple solution. If most of western world allowed Taiwan embassies China would have to relent. They can't afford having entire western world stand against them. Unfortunately, that would require western nations to agree on something.

jeidz 5y ago
They can. The western world can’t afford to be without China’s manufacturing, though.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Yes, and that's the problem. The West will not go, and die without one xmass season, and a new Iphone 99. But Western elites all holding stocks of companies valued in trillions will do. I requires a healthy conversation in society about this. It will come to a time when people will have to decide what to do with these people. Potential adversaries now do things which just 15 years ago would've meant a real hot war with the whole Western world by leveraging their financial influence on Western elites, and a threat of bankrupting them.
  - pokepim 5y ago
    I hate that China vs US thing comes down to race things, like it’s us white americans vs those bad chinese. Even American companies are now bad since they dare to sell to chinese people and only care about profits but not the fragile white american ego. It’s especially visible on Hacker News, asian bashing is so common but I guess it’s mostly due to demographics (right wing white americans mostly lurk forums like these, just remember how BLM movement was discussed here). What a farce
    - ipaddr 5y ago
      You realize many American are from Chinese decent. Not selling to a citizen of China regardless of race (not all Chinese are from the same race) is much different than not selling to anyone who has a Chinese gene. The nation state you think China and the US to be doesn't exist.

BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago

China pretending to be the victim of Lithuanian bullying really is a farce more ridiculous than usual.

adamnemecek 5y ago
Worst thing to happen to China since the Sino-Albanian split https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Albanian_split https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Albanian_split
- vmception 5y ago
  Tragedy that upset geopolitics and trade relations for half a century (sarcasm about China’s extra behavior)
Raed667 5y ago
The cynicism of China foreign policy never ceases to amaze
- bettysdiagnose 5y ago
  It's like they want the rest of the world to hate them.
  - koolba 5y ago
    Not quite. They just don’t care what anybody else thinks outside of game theory analysis of how they will act. If the country was a person, we’d label their personality as a high functioning manipulative sociopath.
    - toomuchtodo 5y ago
      And yet, we don’t do what is best practice for dealing with such an actor: disengage. We (the US primarily, but also the rest of the developed world) have a tremendous opportunity with a still productive labor force and cheap capital to boot up manufacturing capacity we offshored to China, and we won’t have the chance again when China decides to act against other countries (economically or militarily).

someguydave 5y ago

Europeans were quick to scorn Mr Trump’s policies but the reality is that China has been unfair in its trade practices. Also, losing liberty in Hong Kong was sad but it will be much worse if free Taiwan is crushed by CCP ambition. The West should have alot of introspection about which battles are the right ones to choose. How will history judge the current leadership of the West if they abandon Taiwan?

deleted 5y ago
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yardie 5y ago
If you are the referring to Trump cancelling TPP it was a dumb move that only emboldened China. The TPP was supposed to be the US and 12 smaller Asian nations vs China. TPP was created because of China's unfair trade practices and Trump dismantled it. No one needs to rewrite his history. The guy was a complete fucking disaster.
- tata71 5y ago
  Did you miss the draconian international copyright regime that it would have put into place etc?
  - unmole 5y ago
    Right, that was why the US refused to join the TPP...
  - yardie 5y ago
    I agree, it shouldn't have been in there. But that is only tangential to the reason why Trump pulled the US out of it. He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals.
    - rendall 5y ago
      > He despised China so much that he made sure to strengthen his personal businesses with them while simultaneously weaken the US trade partnership with their rivals. Would you mind expanding on this? I could only find articles describing a bank account opened in China, that indicate only a little less than $500k business per year. What do you know?

jinguang 5y ago

台湾是中国永久不可分割的一部分，它只是中国台湾省。立陶宛触碰了红线，当然要付出代价。立陶宛甘愿作为美国的炮灰。中国只是拿美国对待中国的方法回敬而已。

RyEgswuCsn 5y ago

Why "evacuate"? Were the safety of the embassy's staff under threat? I can't help but wonder if the word was deliberately chosen for click-baiting --- the only three occurrences of "evacuate/evacuation", including the one in the title, are concentrated in the second and third paragraphs --- it is as if they are injected as a last-minute after-thought.

BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
> Were the safety of the embassy's staff under threat? Seems they didn't want to risk it. > Not knowing whether the staff would retain diplomatic immunity, and not accepting its embassy’s demotion, Lithuania told all diplomats and dependants to keep their cards and leave the next day on an Air China flight to Paris.
factorialboy 5y ago
Yes. China is known to use undisclosed radiation weapons against diplomats. US diplomats have suffered on multiple occasions.
- rhn_mk1 5y ago
  Sources?
  - mtmail 5y ago
    5min searching for sources ... Might be a mixup with sonic weapons. "An employee at the U.S. Embassy in Guangzhou, China, allegedly suffered mild traumatic brain injury after hearing a vague and abnormal sound" https://www.theepochtimes.com/with-sonic-weapon-attack-china-demonstrates-experimental-program_2539742.html https://www.theepochtimes.com/with-sonic-weapon-attack-china...
    - RyEgswuCsn 5y ago
      Well, one should note that The Epoch Times is brought to you by the propaganda arm of the anti-CCP Falun gong.

subroutine 5y ago

China would be much better off if they just gave up on the whole Taiwan charade. I understand how badly they want to put Taiwan under thumb like they did HK, but Taiwan is really the only issue I foresee with potential to derail China's progress.

gedy 5y ago
Yeah I don't see the point or value at this stage. They control their media tightly, and if they just stopped talking about Taiwan I doubt many people in the mainland would care. They've proven they don't need Taiwan and vice versa.
- manquer 5y ago
  Control of South China sea is far too important for china to ignore Taiwan, also Taiwan's dominance in chip design/manufacturing would give china enormous influence over the world.
- mark_l_watson 5y ago
  +1 thanks for that, now that I think about this issue, that is the way I feel also. A few of my friends think I am overboard when I talk positively about China, but really I am just reacting to how wonderful the people there were when my wife and I travelled in China, and I also really respect their AI tech, their tech in general, and how so many people have moved out of poverty. It is just their current government that I don’t like.
  - imiric 5y ago
    Governments are a reflection of the people. They're not some nebulous, abstract entity; they're literally made and run by people of each country. They're chosen–or in some cases imposed–to represent the people to the world. Even in dictatorships, it is the people that choose for governments to remain in power. When that stops being the case, governments are overthrown, and a new set of people take power. The people of China choose to allow CCP to run their country. If they were so different ideologically the CCP would no longer exist. Countries with orders of magnitude less people struggle to remain united. The fact 1.4 billion people can be represented by the same political party speaks to the strong ideological ties that are shared by most Chinese people. I would argue that those ideologies were implanted by decades of brainwashing and totalitarianism, but how it was achieved doesn't change that fact. So, yes, your experience and likely many others' is with good people. Countries are not exclusively bad or good. We can recognize those good traits that China has as a nation. But it would be wrong to also not criticize the bad aspects, and sweep them under the rug as the CCP constantly tries to do. The rampant economic and moral corruption, overfishing of world's waters and general disregard for animal life and nature, disregard for human life, widespread racism and xenophobia, isolationism, etc. These are not only governmental issues, but part of the modern Chinese culture that taints whatever good aspects we can celebrate. Undoubtedly comparisons to the US will be made, but at least we can criticize bad US aspects (both government and cultural) openly, without random US citizens coming up with defensive arguments. The US government will persecute whistleblowers for airing its dirty laundry, but we've known that for decades. I fear a world where the dominant superpower has such a culture and is closed to criticism—not only because of its oppressive government, but because of its people.

albeva 5y ago

I wish whole of EU would declare in unison support for Taiwan. Wonder if China would kick out every single EU nation embassy then?

BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
If they did that, I hope they would coordinate the timing with America first. It would be American forces, not so much the EU, that would be helping Taiwan defend against the invasion that would probably follow.
- albeva 5y ago
  While true, it is often ignored that combined EU does possess a huge, highly advanced and well trained military force. So more than that I'd hope EU can then put its squabbling aside and respong in unison to any military provocation as well.
  - mantas 5y ago
    How many aircraft careers does EU have? Especially after Brexit...
    - qnsi 5y ago
      4, which is more than China has.
    - angrygoat 5y ago
      Seven: France (4) Italy (2) Spain (1) Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_service https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_aircraft_carriers_in_s...
      - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
        That count is a bit deceptive, France has a single aircraft carrier with fixed-wing aircraft, the Charles de Gaulle. The other three are Mistral-class amphibious assault ships with helicopters.

hirundo 5y ago

I think the right response to these provocations is to assist Taiwan in protecting itself. Essentially we should reverse the betrayal of Taiwan by Nixon in 1972, when he withdrew the US nuclear presence there. This time, to protect from changing political winds, the nukes should be under the control of Taiwan. Nothing much else will deter China.

throwaway12345n 5y ago
I fully agree. And the chinese should put nuclear nukes on cuba as well under the control of the cuban regime.
BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
Taiwan could likely develop their own native nuclear weapons in a matter of months, if they chose to. They have a mature nuclear industry with several reactors, and likely already have plans for nuclear weapons drawn up.
- sudosysgen 5y ago
  You're forgetting about Chinese intelligence. It would never work once the Chinese notice and it would only provide an actually valid casus belli
  - BrazzVuvuzela 5y ago
    China could accuse Taiwan of developing nuclear weapons today, saying their spies uncovered the plot. Would you, I or anybody else be able to refute it? Would our doubt matter? And if Taiwan really did start manufacturing nuclear bombs and China was telling the truth about it, would you, I or others in the West believe them? The 'actual validity' of a casus belli has never really counted for much.
    - sudosysgen 5y ago
      The difference is that, if they actually did start manufacturing the bomb, China would almost certainly be able to provide incontrovertible evidence. If they didn't provide evidence, yes, we coule refute it. The West will pretend that Taiwan wasn't doing that anyways. That's why I said 80%.

maxdo 5y ago

Hope this Russian-Ukraine tensions, also China-Taiwan tensions will open eyes of western world like it happened with Europe during WWII. Collapse of Soviet Union influenced western world badly. They relaxed and eased requirements whom to work with. We need at least to introduce tyranny tax, same as carbon tax. That will give a good boost of local economies also gives a proper signal to the entire world.

croes 5y ago
That's naive world view. Putin wouldn't have happened with capitalist errors under Yelzin. And the west never cared about whom to work with as long the got their needed resources. And the west has a long tradition of using countries with lack of environmental and human rights to produce their products or get needed resources. We complain about Ukraine and Taiwan but about the Yemen we don't care. Because there seem to be good and bad tyrannies. Russia, China bad, Saudi Arabia, Qatar good. Iraq good as long they fought Iran, bad a soon as they attacked Qatar and threatened our oil.
- maxdo 5y ago
  that's the same problem just some of them causing west troubles, some of them don't. The question is why we even allow to do so. Wasn't that clear in 2014 with russia that it's extremely aggressive? Kicking out russia from economy in 2014 would prevent such events. China also had so many times you can stop it, or at least put the world on other track. it's not about capitalism. Current time is the most close to WWIII , if Russia and China will decide to attack Ukraine and Taiwan right now. What would west do? Most likely the answer is nothing. You just need to hit hard. And that's how WWII started.
  - croes 5y ago
    >economy in 2014 would prevent such events So they would not have to lose? That's a guaranteed way to war. Mutual dependence prevents wars. >You just need to hit hard. And then? We are talking about nuclear powers here? What will happen when their backs are against the wall and they don't have much to lose?

United857 5y ago

China can get away with their diplomatic isolation of Taiwan due to the large economic power imbalance between the two. We never saw this with North /South Korea, nor West/East Germany. Countries recognized both as sovereign. There was no "Korean Seoul" or "German Bonn" competing at the Olympics, etc. If anything, West Germany or South Korea could've done what China is doing now but they chose not to.

luckylion 5y ago
> There was no "Korean Seoul" or "German Bonn" competing at the Olympics, etc. Are you aware that both China and Taiwan claim to be the legal government of both countries? Because that's completely different from Germany or Korea, where the states recognized each other.
- dustintrex 5y ago
  For what it's worth, I don't believe West Germany ever formally recognized East Germany. The closest was allowing a state visit from Honecker in 1987.
  - luckylion 5y ago
    They signed an agreement in the early 70ies ("Grundlagenvertrag") outlining their relationships and had mutual defacto-embassies ("Ständige Vertretung") and called the heads of those ambassadors (at least the GDR did, I believe the FRG did not, but they were ambassadors for all intents and purposes).
    - dustintrex 5y ago
      That does not sound hugely different from China and Taiwan, which, despite the bluster, also de facto recognize each other in all sorts of ways like having quasi-diplomatic representatives, issuing travel documents to each other's citizens, etc.
      - 5y ago

footlose_3815 5y ago

[dead]

yeetman21 5y ago

My take on the whole China issue is this: no country actually cares about humans rights or any of that stuff but only about their national self interests and that most people do not actually care about humans rights, but only about their own personal self interests. China is a rising power in the world and wants to at least be the primary power in its region (maybe the world, who knows), and the USA as the primary power in the world and the region wants to keep its position. The US and China also have a symbiotic relationship, China would not be able to be in the position it is today if not for American purchases, and Americans would not have the quality of life they currently enjoy if they did not have Chinese manufacturing. Both countries know they cannot be openly hostile to each-other without huge ramifications so they use proxy conflicts to try to secretly bludgeon each other and propagandize their own populations. Americans can propagandize their population with HK, Taiwan, concentration camps, no freedom and Chinese can propagandize their population with drone strikes, Century of humiliation, US Imperialism... Nobody, except the misled population (who are being propagandized) or extremely dim-witted subsets of elites (who are doing the propaganda, and go high of their own supply so to say) actually care about these issues. I do not think this will be as hot as the last cold war since the US and China are way more interdependent than the US and the USSR and the way to make sure that this semi-cold war will not turn into a hot war is to not trying to break the interdependence, but to strengthen it.

ackkshually 5y ago
^ the only smart comment in this entire thread.
Aunche 5y ago
>Nobody, except the misled population (who are being propagandized) or extremely dim-witted subsets of elites (who are doing the propaganda, and go high of their own supply so to say) actually care about these issues. IMO, this is a much bigger problem for Western nations. They want to pressure Hollywood and the NBA to take a stand against China, but that is exactly what China wants. They don't get any economic value from importing entertainment, so they would much rather that money circulate domestically. This is exactly what happened in with H&M and Nike when they started to look into Xinjiang forced labor. China had an excuse to encourage a consumer boycott, but they happily continued to manufacture for them, widening our trade deficit.

hollowturtle 5y ago

On Taiwan: the more the Chinese government talks publicy about it, the more is clear they can’t/not able to do so imo. It’s just ccp propaganda, you dont announce out loud military plans

noisy_boy 5y ago

I find it satisfying that while the so-called super powers routinely either turn a blind eye or pay lip service or worse, bend over backwards to accommodate China's bullying behaviour, of all the mighty countries, Lithuania showed some spine (irrespective of whether the reasons were based on principles or something else).

djoldman 5y ago

I'm not sure what China's problem is, they should just recall their territory's office in Lithuania. /s

nabla9 5y ago

China has had only one leader who was educated in the West: Deng Xiaoping. Deng was sent to Paris in 1920 when he was 16 where he attented middle schools, in 1926 he studied in Moscow. He moved back to China in 1927. Deng understood the West and was able to advance Chinese interests. Xi Jinping is complete opposite of Deng. Xi has no understanding of other cultures. Russia under Putin bullies and plays brinkmanship due to political weakness. That seems to work for them under the circumstances. Chine under Xi bullies because they are incompetent. China under Xi can't even bully right. Wolf Warrior tactics of Chinese diplomats works against Chinese interest. Nobody is scared and everyone wants to resist.

sudosysgen 5y ago
Xi spent multiple years living (correction, only a few weeks) in the US. You are off the mark. There are other, much more complex reasons in play.
- baybal2 5y ago
  Hsi Chinping only spent 2 weeks in US on a work trip. There are no complex reasons at play.
  - sudosysgen 5y ago
    It is true, he did not spend a few years, I misremembered. Still, this is not from a lack of understanding of the West. There a lot of complex strategic factors that mean that China cannot abandon the idea of holding Taiwan, which means either war or the One China Policy, which requires the behaviour we're seeing now.
    - nabla9 5y ago
      I was talking about Wolf Warrior diplomacy. It's idiotic tactic now matter what way you look at it.

motiejus 5y ago

I am Lithuanian; Lithuania<->Taiwan<->PRC conflict is frequently a topic of discussion these days among my peers. My position, shared by a few others, is that this is the next best thing that happened in Lithuania after leaving USSR: the first being joining NATO and EU in 2004. Everyone in the world can (and almost everyone do) endorse PRC. "You won't get fired for picking IBM/Oracle/PRC". While very few countries have the guts and the internal political structure that allows opening a Taiwanese representative office. Lithuania shows that it prefers dealing with a country that takes the human rights into account; being the first one "in the party" to do so bring us significant advantages. Both Taiwanese investments and Lithuanian exports to Taiwan are picking up pace. This will hurt us in the short-term, sure. It already does: packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there. In the long term, if we don't change our mind (not impossible), I think this is for the better.

antattack 5y ago
It's impossible to do that for larger countries, cooperation with China is the only way. Large economies are too tightly coupled to just cut China off. It would take a decade or two.
- notpachet 5y ago
  Sunk cost fallacy. Anything is possible, it's just a matter of how much pain you're willing to bear for your principles.
  - peoplefromibiza 5y ago
    my bet is on "no more than the current situation" which is already causing big social issues in all western countries.
  - antattack 5y ago
    We were fine profiting off from their lack of principals and were looking the other way for decades. There's no point for sudden drastic measures. Another thing to keep in mind: any serious confrontation with China will be exploited by Russia. They already have made their moves known. I think Musk was right on China recently, basically said that we have to come to terms with new reality, on both sides: https://youtu.be/lSD_vpfikbE?t=2038 https://youtu.be/lSD_vpfikbE?t=2038

Pmop 5y ago

> packages(/containers) from PRC are delayed or cancelled, invoices are not being paid, we are losing business there I think the whole western world should stop playing games with the bully state that is PRC.

rayiner 5y ago
Who is China bullying except it’s own people?
- xwolfi 5y ago
  Taiwanese people?
- lui8906 5y ago
  Look to their diplomatic behavior around the South China Sea for the last couple of decades.
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    The US views itself as the enforcer of UNCLOS for all navigable bodies of water in the entire world, a treaty it hasn't ratified. It has tons of military bases in the SCS, a region not even close to it, compared to the furor when it becomes possible that China might build a single military base along Africa's atlantic coast. It seems like a bit of a double standard to me. I wish a good faith discussion about China was possible here, but I think that HN swings pretty jingoistic on these issues.
    - scottLobster 5y ago
      What-aboutisms and calling people jingoist. Who exactly do you think you're convincing other than yourself? Point me to the last time the US used its navy to directly threaten merchant shipping.
      - syki 5y ago

synergy20 5y ago

Here is a perspective on China's current aggressiveness: those in power are from the culture-revolution age(1966-1976), which means they did not get good education(if anything at all). Most of them are not even middle-school graduates. Their youth time are filled with beating those well educated ones based on ideologies accusations. Xi himself did not even finish middle school, his professional skill is the worst comparing to his past peers, he could not even read correctly many times in public since he came in power.

deusum 5y ago
I couldn't imagine country run by a middle school bully. Now I can.
- picture 5y ago
  As someone who have spent 13 or so years of their life in China, I absolutely agree with this perspective. The culture of modern China seem to support a strangely "macho" image particularly for men: it's acceptable and maybe even encouraged, for men to be overtaken by rage, and thrash and kick around while yelling things. [1] It looks like this mentality is reflected by the politics of china as a whole. [1]: This is actually very accurate to how people get angry in China, I've seen teachers, businessmen, even customers, rage in this characteristic weirdly macho way. https://youtu.be/aCdFec3uu_g https://youtu.be/aCdFec3uu_g
  - whimsicalism 5y ago
    ? I honestly don't see anything in this video that I wouldn't see in expressions of anger in the US, except that they are speaking a mix of chinese and english.
  - mads 5y ago
    This is also my experience. Except I have seen it a lot with females also. Maybe because my family in law is Chinese I am more exposed to it. China sure has a lot of empty very loud barrels.
  - 5y ago

ychw 5y ago

alkonaut 5y ago
That’s a bit too simplistic tbh. Let me try “China is evil and so is a large number of other countries including Russia, a lot of the Middle East and Central Asia. The others aren’t necessarily heroes but at least have free press…”
monetus 5y ago
Please take others in good faith and respond in kind - this forum isn't for low effort lambasting

pphysch 5y ago

1. Beijing rejects being merely the "workshop" of the unipolar world, embraces sovereignty (GFW), high quality development (HSR), technological innovation (4IR), including in the military space (space, cyber, hypersonics). Oh and BRI. 2. Washington doesn't like that because it will displace the unipolar moment. USA has been in economic decline for half a century while PRC has been on a dramatic rise. Washington tries to break up PRC like it's a too-big company, via hybrid warfare. It tries everything possible to politically destabilize Beijing, with propaganda being a cornerstone. 3. Washington enlists anyone available to achieve this goal, including washed-up NBA benchwarmers and irrelevant Eastern European countries. They are encouraged to adopt a foreign policy that is in line with Washington's desire to preserve unipolarity and therefore hostile to Beijing. Who knows what they get in return, because it certainly doesn't make any economic sense in the long-term. 4. When Beijing responds tit-for-tat, answering sanctions with sanctions, harassment with harassment, downgrade in relations with downgrade in relations, it's a simple matter of spinning PRC as the aggressor who acted first. Alternatively, "See See Pee Bad". Propaganda works and no one is immune.

manuelabeledo 5y ago
Both China and the US are trying to protect their interests, and both are aggressors. Making it look like this is some sort of US initiated warfare is insanely simplistic, and mostly wrong.
- pphysch 5y ago
  > Making it look like this is some sort of US initiated warfare is insanely simplistic, and mostly wrong. It is a simplification, but it is mostly true. Washington has literally been trying to contain PRC's rise since it was born in 1949. Because duh, China has historically been the most prosperous civilization on the planet and they just got out from under the boot of Western/Japanese imperialism. War in Korea (and almost over Taiwan). Deny access to 1st island chain. Sino-Soviet split. War in Vietnam, Cambodia, Laos. Scorched earth policy. Deny access to SEA. Transition to hybrid war (propaganda-driven psychological warfare) as PRC opened up under Deng. Tibet. Tiananmen Sq. (20 years of relative tolerance, Washington assuming PRC won't get uppity and will follow USSR's fate) Obama's "China Pivot", anti-BRICS campaign. South China Sea. Hong Kong. ETIM/Xinjiang. Taiwan. You can spin Beijing's responses to this containment strategy as "aggression", but frankly that doesn't make much sense unless you believe Washington is entitled to global hegemony. The fact is that Beijing has been consistently outplaying Washington since Mao. And that makes Washington extremely nervous and irrational.

alkonaut 5y ago

China has already started pressuring companies with manufacturing in China such as Continental, that they should get out of Lithuania or risk losing access to the Chinese market. This just goes to show one thing: western companies have to leave the Chinese market and all its money on the table. Unless you are ready to live under constant threat of political pressure/blackmail, risk being spied on, forced to censorship or forced to corruption, you can’t operate there (and obviously several other countries). The correct move for both companies and corporations is to be open from the beginning. Open about what you think about Taiwan, about Chinese politics and so on. If that leaves you in the cold - at least you aren’t already neck deep in investment in China. I don’t pity corporations that invest in China only to find themselves blackmailed into (say) having their maps app show Taiwan as a part of China. I wish more companies had the moral backbone to say “we’re going to annoy China by showing the correct world map starting in may, and if you don’t agree you should sell your stock now”.

jeswin 5y ago
> This just goes to show one thing: western companies have to leave the Chinese market and all its money on the table. Part of the problem is that executive compensation is more short-term results focused.
- CRConrad 5y ago
  Feels more and more like that's part of many many problems, perhaps most of them. And usually not a particularly small part.
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nikkinana 5y ago

I love China

baka367 5y ago

A Lithuanian here Moral questions aside (as everyone here seems to focus on it), the people are split into roughly three camps: - Anti-vaxers: hate anything government because Vax-Pass, including the China oriented diplomacy - Libtards: love anything government and worship the leader of the main party. They celebrate this and openly bash China because their Leader said that it is good - Non-involved people - worry about the economic consequences to businesses and people's lives. Most of them would have a hard time finding Taiwan (probably even China) on a blank map. In my opinion: Our Minister of Foreign Affairs went into this without really understanding what it would mean to the CCP and what possible counter-actions they can take. Lithuania was hit more than the politicians expected and we are, essentially, alone in this fight (save for endorsements and pats on the back). I guess that we will be in a pretty rough spot in short-term, while mid/long term can go either way depending on how the western powers and Taiwan will act.

mthoms 5y ago
I stopped reading at “Libtards”. Which is a shame because it sounds like you might have some meaningful insight. Edit: Flagged for pointing out that childish snark (a clear violation of HN guidelines) ruined an otherwise good comment? Ok, then.
- dang 5y ago
  The GP definitely shouldn't have included that provocation. But your comment did something worse: you singled out the provocation and reacted purely to that. That's blowing on the flames, and users correctly flagged it. What we want HN users to do is leave provocations where they find them, and respond/build on the most interesting things in a comment/article/topic instead. We even promoted this to the official guidelines recently (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html): Please don't pick the most provocative thing in an article and rush to the thread to complain about it. Find something interesting to comment about instead. Perhaps it should say "article or post".
  - mthoms 5y ago

cosmodisk 5y ago

Lithuanian here too. I'm 100% certain PRC will try to inflict as much pain on my own country via some side pressure to larger companies that have footprint in the country or by pressing applying political pressure to other countries. Some say we just do what the US tell us. The others say we should shut up and know our place. But the reality is that this isn't Nazi Germany v2. It's a country that is unparallel in population. It also has tons of money and also capability to manufacture virtually anything. It also has so many people in concentration camps that the world just can't continue to ignore for the sake of having cheap pair of shoes. It's a bully. It won't stop with a little country in Baltics.

eunos 5y ago
Pressures for replacing Lithuanian products already started. Ironically, commerce between Taiwan and mainland do not show sign of weakness.
- cosmodisk 5y ago
  The trade with Taiwan will unlikely to replace trade with China purely because of the scale of Chinese market, however it will hopefully act as an indicator of how things are to those who work/planning to with China.

k__ 5y ago

To me, the story of China and Taiwan sounds strange. It's like if the confederates lost the war, but simply kept Florida or if Nazi Germany lost, but kept Austria. I don't know how bad the Chinese nazionalists were back in the days, but I can kinda understand why the rest of China is unhappy about them.

CRConrad 5y ago
> It's like if the confederates lost the war, but simply kept Florida or if Nazi Germany lost, but kept Austria. Kind of a good analogy, but the wrong way around. China vs Taiwan is more like if the confederates won the civil war, but the Union kept Florida; or if Nazi Germany won WW2, but the Allies hung on in Austria. The communists never were the good guys.

yumraj 5y ago

Is there any list of Made in Lithuania products that I can buy in the US to show my support?

locallost 5y ago

Ideology is important and if they truly believe in this fight, more power to them. But it's not easy being a battering ram for somebody else, which seems like the more probable case.

mrtweetyhack 5y ago

Everything is cheap in China, especially talk

neonate 5y ago

https://archive.md/q2dNu https://archive.md/q2dNu

dehrmann 5y ago

> In November China unilaterally declared that each country’s respective embassy would be demoted to an office headed by a chargé d’affaires, or caretaker. Is this technically an invasion from China since the embassy grounds are theoretically soil of the embassy's country?

joshlemer 5y ago
No, this whole "embassy grounds are the guest country's territory" thing is a myth. There are special privileges granted to embassies, but they are not technically "foreign soil" or sovereign territory of the guest country.
dragonwriter 5y ago
> Is this technically an invasion from China since the embassy grounds are theoretically soil of the embassy's country? No, because: (1) embassy grounds are not soil of the embassy's country, even in theory. See, Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations. (2) a place being an embassy is a matter of mutual agreement, not a permanent right with regard to the establishment.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

My Grandmother just turned 100 and grew up under the Nazi regime which controlled her island in Norway. All of her grandchildren would occasionally tease her about her staunch refusal to buy anything made in China due to their politics (to this day). I find it interesting that she may have been forward thinking about this.

throwaway_1_234 5y ago

As a Russian I am pretty biased, but I can't help but marvel at the West. Lithuania started this row over Taiwan. They literally pissed in China's eye, knowing full well what the Chinese response is going to be. But then, somehow, it's still China's fault for engaging in Cold War rhetoric and ratcheting up political aggression? I am sorry, but I don't buy it. The equivalent here would be China opening up a Scotland or a Catalonia embassy in Pekin to troll Spain/UK, then being surprised Spain/UK break off relations. This whole story also vividly reminds me of what the British did a few months back in the Black Sea. They knowingly sailed too close to Crimea, filmed our response (jets flying overhead, etc), then for weeks showed these clips to the world as proof of "Russian aggression against freedom in Europe." Wtf? Queue eye roll. I see the same dynamic playing out now with China now. You Westerners go out of your way to initiate conflict, then play the victim card. It's very strange. I don't understand it.

Palanquin 5y ago

As a Lithuanian, I have mixed feelings about this. From one side, I applaud my country for standing up to China. However, the rest of the EU seems to not be supporting us in taking strong position against China. This makes it easy for China to retaliate against Lithuania. The real issue, in my opinion, is that the EU and the rest of the world depend heavily on China for manufacturing goods. There is that great initiative in the EU to invest in the semiconductor industry so that we would manufacture them in the EU.

noirchen 5y ago

I feel it amused that people here are discussing what and how Lithuania and the west can do to 'confront' China, but everyone in east Asia knows that before the next Taiwan election in 2024, China will do something to achieve some sort of reunification, either by forcing the Taiwanese government back to the old One-China promise (which is unlikely because the pro-China KMT lost power long ago) or by toppling the pro-independence DPP government. And you people are seriously discussing the possibility that Taiwan goes nuclear, but it was in the KMT era after China had the bomb, Taiwan was considering building its own nuclear weapon, only to be quickly removed by the US. You do not need to be a rocket scientist to realize that the US has been selling Taiwan expensive out-of-date weapons, which is only logical if the US doesn't want Taiwan to defend itself. Taiwanese people know that, ever since the 70s when Taiwan was kicked off the UN and the US did nothing! Do you guys know the real sentiment in Taiwan? They are more like, "F*k the US, they treat us like pawns. F*k the west, they would give us anything but real support! F*k the government, they got us in such a bad position. F*k China, they want to annex us. F*k the 20% Taiwanese, they do business with China, in China, for China!"

eloisius 5y ago
I'm curious how you know the real sentiment in Taiwan, and also how you arrived at the conclusion that everyone in east Asia knows China will attempt unification before the next election? I live in Taiwan, and I've never met anyone that said fuck the U.S. for not offering real support. I've heard people acknowledge that the U.S. doesn't sell Taiwan the latest defense tech, but are also aware that Taiwan is a rich country and can afford to pay for its own defense. The U.S. shouldn't discourage Taiwan from developing its own capabilities. As for invasion within the next two years, I suppose none but some inner circle in China really knows, but that it's a guaranteed fact is not a consensus belief here. If it was true, people and money would be pouring out of Taiwan. From the outside, Taiwan sounds like a besieged island expecting incoming missiles any moment, but life is typical here. People are concerned with real estate prices, getting a promotion at work, construction noise in the neighborhood, climate change, etc. You'd think a place with such grim prospects about the future wouldn't have time to worry about animal welfare or environmentalism. However, any given weekend you can find thousands of volunteers going to clean up litter on beaches, or working in animal shelters.

thunkshift1 5y ago

Me speculation is Lithuania is ‘taking one for the team’ (EU) and doing what others are reluctant to. Any benefits from Taiwan - lithuania engagement will spill over to the block I guess. Kudos to them nevertheless

Koiwai 5y ago

Please do not post (shitty) politics in Hacker News, "even Stalin would tell you that you are making an error in politicizing technology."

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