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The Internet Has a Rat Poison Problem

336 points by axiomdata316 5y ago

Benlights 5y ago
It feels like no one in this thread lives in an urban area with a persistent rat problem. We tried multiple types of traps; snap, glue, electrification. "Eco friendly" sprays, bait boxes, you name it. Nothing works. When your wife is hesitant to leave the house because of the rats gamboling near the front door drastic action is needed. I'm not advocating for brodifacoum but the comments here seem tone deaf and one dimensional.
Syonyk 5y ago
Ew. Not surprised you can buy the stuff that professionals shy away from for being too damned toxic, to your door, overnight delivery. Plus good reviews, hard to leave a bad review for it when you're bleeding out in the ER. I don't use poisons for pest control. We have too many owls, hawks, and the occasional eagle overhead. I'll kill stuff mechanically (damned pocket gophers...) and toss the carcass out where something will find it and eat it, but I won't poison them. The best mouse trap is actually a slightly erratic supply of cat food.
- hamstergene 5y ago
  Good reviews also barely mean anything these days. The worst item I have ever bought online, which damaged itself on opening for 100% of buyers, had ~4.1 rating. At this point, it is fair to say getting less than 4 stars means the seller was too poor/naive to hire "online promotion" services or whatever they are called, rather than anything else.
  - 7952 5y ago
    Redordering reviews by date helps a lot.
  - zrm 5y ago
    Similar to eBay seller ratings where 99.9% positive feedback means you might get your item, whereas 95% positive feedback implies the seller is stealing the goods from the factory that counterfeits them and whether you receive anything depends mainly on how the shipping carrier handles a package that catches fire in transit. Less than 80% positive feedback has never been observed but would presumably involve the seller coming to your house to murder you and steal your identity and then using your account to leave negative feedback for themselves.
    - kstenerud 5y ago
      I spit my tea all over at that last sentence.
    - alpaca128 5y ago
      This has the same energy as that "you wouldn't steal a car" ad in IT Crowd. But it's not far from the truth, and unless 10 news websites report on it online platforms won't even bother with an empty statement. Amazon for example lets vendors transfer good reviews to any other product by just replacing the product entry (name, description, price). Sure you then have reviews for coffee cups under some solder wire, but it fools enough users. And if the reviews are too negative you can just remove the product offer and immediately create it again.
      - nefitty 5y ago
        I think it's also review shyness. My wife yelled at me once (like real, oh shit I'm in trouble, yell) for leaving a 1 star review for an Uber driver who sped the whole way and ran a red light.
        MereInterest 5y ago
        That's caused by excessive metric tracking on the part of companies, and passing the blame down to individual employees. When a 5-star rating is the default and anything else is a push for the person to be fired, of course people won't leave negative reviews, that's going to prevent people from leaving accurate reviews. If I could trust reviews to be used in good faith (e.g. by paying employees a living wage and not implicitly requiring dangerous behavior to meet quotas), then I could leave more accurate reviews.
- OneLeggedCat 5y ago
  I have a terrible pocket gopher problem. They absolutely have to be dealt with when they come out of hibernation this year. What's you're favorite trap for them?
  - sgtnoodle 5y ago
    After years of trouble, my wife finally found success with a GopherHawk.
    - OneLeggedCat 5y ago
      That does indeed look very effective.
  - Syonyk 5y ago
    I've got some long black traps with a "flag" on them that pops when triggered, and those seem to work well enough. A chunk of rebar to poke around and find the tunnel, a bit of hand digging, and I can start pulling 'em out in a hurry.
- zionic 5y ago
  Sounds like a great way to give your cat toxoplasmosis, which will eventually infect you via feces spread if they’re indoor/outdoor.
KingMachiavelli 5y ago
What's surprising is why people would buy this over the more obvious search result 'Rat Poison'. Perhaps Amazon has already adjusted the search results but the top results for 'rat poison' were Cholecalciferol and Bromethalin based products. Does Brodifacoum work the best? What's driving consumers to search for a specific type of poison. > Things haven’t quite worked out as the EPA envisioned. When I first started browsing Amazon, neither the cost nor the size seemed particularly egregious to me. A single bucket—similar in size to a container of birdseed—seemed sufficient for my small yard. Is putting poison over an entire yard a common/reasonable usage? I've really only needed to put poison out in a few problematic locations i.e where rodents have been seen like garages, basements, food pantry, etc. Covering an entire area like you would with grass seed or rock salt seems almost deliberately malicious.
- sdenton4 5y ago
  One can easily imagine the thoughts of the uninformed internet researcher: "Well, when I shopped around, these 12 gallon buckets we're the minimum size, so I guess you need to use a lot of it..."
- estaseuropano 5y ago
  I don't know if that's what they mean, but the pest control guy advised me to put poison in every single room, and in large rooms at several locations as often you will not know where they really stay/forage. E.g. you might notice the one mouse that goesi in the kitchen but not the others that live in the attic. Then again, maybe he was just trying to sell more.
- NavinF 5y ago
  Never had to deal with a rat problem, but lemme put myself in the shoes of someone who tried using cheap single-mouse traps and found they didn’t work. At that point I would google for the most effective poison (using some metric like time to death or LD50 per kg), check exterminator forums to see what they use as a last resort, etc. If the product is as deadly as promised, I’d give it a 5* rating and recommend it to all my IRL friends. Personally I’ve been burned by milquetoast products such as “eco friendly” cleaning liquids that just don’t work. Product with many warning labels that are clearly targeted towards professionals are so much more effective in general.
s5300 5y ago
We (younger than 30ish) are in for some crazy times IMO You can order parts to reliably make guns fully automatic straight to your door, thousands of rounds of ammunition for a weeks worth of minimum wage work straight to your door, poisons such as what this article refers to straight to your door… gun suppressors straight to your door… I just think were going to see a ton of people in the US snapping and doing crazy shit if we fall into economic decline & keep dismantling our social safety nets. When I was living in San Diego, I became aware of a dude in a totally normal ass suburb leaving poisoned meat around the entire block, for months on end, after the apparent last straw of dog shit on his lawn snapped. I’m not entirely sure why, but everybody knew - and the cops/city did nothing/were unable to do anything about it. Would be crazy to find out if he was getting whatever poison he used straight from Amazon.
- seabird 5y ago
  You can order parts to make your gun fully automatic straight to your door without filling out a Form 4 if you want to commit a federal crime that the ATF likely will follow up on. You can order suppressors straight to your door without filling out a Form 4 if you want to commit a federal crime that the ATF likely will follow up on. You can _not_ buy thousands of rounds worth of any ammo other than .22 with a week's worth of minimum wage pay (if you know something that I don't, let me know where you're finding these deals). The time will probably come for poison like this very soon. None of this is to say that terrorism isn't fairly easy, all things considered. The law does very little to stop these things before they happen. The big takeaway is that the vast majority of people aren't violent and unreasonable. You've always been able to do these things, usually more easily in the past than you could today, but we've never had issues with it (at least in the US) to the point where the average person you bump into on the street will have personally experienced it.
  - sueders101 5y ago
    "You can _not_ buy thousands of rounds worth of any ammo other than .22 with a week's worth of minimum wage pay (if you know something that I don't, let me know where you're finding these deals)." It's pretty close. Ammoseek shows 9mm starting at ~$0.30 per round, and most other popular pistol calibers starting at ~$0.40 to ~$0.45 per round. And it's easy to find better deals if you're checking the r/gundeals subreddit periodically. That puts 2000 rounds of 9mm at around the gross income weekly income for someone earning $15/hour.
Swenrekcah 5y ago
If governments could put half the effort they put into chasing drugs into actually policing these substances…
oasisbob 5y ago
Interestingly, the AG of Washington state just settled with Amazon over this same kind of borderline and illegal sales: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-agrees-to-pay-2-5m-to-settle-pesticide-sales-lawsuit/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-agrees-t...
ars 5y ago
As someone who needed some rodenticide, what is actually needed is not restriction on these poisons, but rather very authoritative sites with advice on the best stuff to get, that is actually safe and effective. It's surprisingly hard to research what poisons are actually good to use, you'll either gets sites shilling stuff that completely doesn't work, but is "eco friendly" (for example "Rat-X"), and sites that simply give you the "most effective", i.e. most poisonous (like the ones in this article). What's needed are sites explaining, for an average person, what's they should be getting. People aren't trying to kill birds, they just are getting really bad advice on what to buy. Bromethalin is a good choice, if you use a bait station (it has no antidote, so always use a bait station, never just tie the blocks somewhere).
- gameman144 5y ago
  Eh, I'm not sure I agree. I think the natural tendency for people is to think "My case is different, I need the strongest tool for this job!". People stock their medicine cabinets with Extra Strength Tylenol instead of regular, or buy anti-bacterial soap instead of normal soap, because it's easier to go straight for the big guns. Even in these small cases the information is tremendously easy to find and people don't look for it and/or care about it. The consequences of the wrong Tylenol or anti-bacterial soap are small comparatively, but when the consequences of bad choices get in the way of ecological conservation for no good reason, it seems like that's prime territory for regulation.
  - jjoonathan 5y ago
    No, they aren't thinking "my case is different," they are expecting the market to be flooded with ineffective products marketed as "safe alternatives." Because it is. They are grasping at any piece of information they can find to fight the overwhelming tidal wave of ineffective non-solutions.
- WalterBright 5y ago
  Get the old wood-and-wire snap traps. The design is centuries old, and they work. They make them rat-size, too.
WalterBright 5y ago
I use the old-fashioned snap traps. They work fine. Sometimes it's necessary to tweak the catch to make it more sensitive. They're made of wood and wire, and aren't an environmental problem. I live near a greenbelt and there's a never-ending invasion of mice. If I leave the garage door open and unattended, they're in in a flash and setting up shop. The only way to get rid of them is the traps, and you have to get rid of them. Peanut butter bait is irresistible. I used to use gloves to bait them cuz the books say they mice are deterred by human smell. They aren't. They aren't deterred by The Cat, either, as they know The Cat prefers human flesh. They're not very smart, either, as if you put two traps adjacent, they'll crawl over the body of their buddy dead in the first one and get caught by the second.
- jrootabega 5y ago
  I think it's highly variable, depending on the size of the population, how hungry they are, if they have other food options available, and their culture and genetics. Sometimes the traps get them, and sometimes they definitely don't. And if the traps don't get all of them, the problem isn't really addressed.
- geon 5y ago
  Snap traps work great. Mice are INCREDIBLY stupid. I set some snap traps at my cottage. I ran out of almonds, but I was too lazy to go inside for more, so for the last trap I just used an acorn. Sure enough, it caught a mouse. With thousands of acorns all over my yard. A bucket with a free-spinning dowel across it works very well too. Although, where I live they are illegal to use unless you empty them twice daily. And any use of water or chemicals with them is illegal.
- netcan 5y ago
  Rats tend to be more clever, and harder to trap than mice
  - WalterBright 5y ago
    The snap traps still work on them every time.
geuis 5y ago
Ok this is insane. A couple days ago I was trying to purchase some new inexpensive but highly reviewed smoke detectors for my apartment. However I ran into an issue that due to some California law, they can’t be delivered because they have to be “10 year” units. The 10-year units are 2-3x the price. On a whim just a couple minutes ago, I did the same search the author did in the article for “bromethalin” on Amazon. Lots of products showed up. I picked the one that had next day Prime delivery for San Francisco. At this step I just left it in my cart. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005BV0DD2?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005BV0DD2?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_... I read a bit further into the article where he talks about California it’s banned. To double check that, I went ahead and completed the order. Went through just fine. Confirmed delivery by tomorrow, 12/12/2021. Then I had a momentary minor freak out and cancelled the order asap. So yeah OP has an entirely valid point and it’s incredibly easy to buy this stuff. I even went with Amazon’s recommendation and got free shipping.
amatecha 5y ago
Happy to report I can't seem to find any products that contain either brodifacoum nor bromethalin on Amazon in Canada (not that I searched super-extensively). Sadly I could see a review on one product where someone specifically says "Don't order this from Amazon.ca! Order from Amazon.COM and pick it up at the border, because the chemical it uses is banned in Canada!" ... Really great advice there, buddy...
strenholme 5y ago
Well, in my case, I have a cat. Nice to have around, and I have never had a rat problem with her in my life.
elurg 5y ago
Anyone surprised that the title is not a metaphor? The article is about the literal sale of substances which are harmful when ingested by rodents.
- just-tom 5y ago
  Yeah I was like, hmmm who are the rats in this? What is the poison? Maybe it's me?? I have to change my ways!
- progre 5y ago
  Yep, I totally thought that it would be about some law that ruins the internet for everyone while at the same time does nothing to stop bad actors. Like the EU cookie warning mandate.
  - justsaying9 5y ago
    God I hate that bullshit. They have accomplished what, exactly? Oh, a big annoying banner that I now have to click through. So helpful. A testament to the stupidity of mankind.
    - marcosdumay 5y ago
      > They have accomplished what, exactly? They made tracking annoying and evident.
      - justsaying9 5y ago
        Which, again, accomplishes what, exactly? "What? This site uses cookies? I am shocked--shocked I say!--to learn cookies are being used on this web site! I had NO IDEA that was going on! Why, it's not like they have been doing that for 25+ years, or anything!" Is this going to stop companies from tracking people? Of course not. It does absolutely nothing to stop any of that. All it does is create yet another useless, annoying fucking popup I have to click through. Instead of being silently tracked, now I'm tracked, plus annoyed, and being FORCED to agree with it. Even though I don't even live in the God damned EU and neither do many of the web sites I access. Like I said--a perfect example of how brain dead retarded humanity is. A failed species. Bring on the giant asteroid, any day now GOD.
micetraps 5y ago
No poison needed. https://www.youtube.com/c/ShawnWoodsprimitive-archer https://www.youtube.com/c/ShawnWoodsprimitive-archer Warning: some people may find some videos disturbing.
foxhop 5y ago
I moonlight as a YouTuber showing how to GROW food on 1/3 acre. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZIumjXukI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZIumjXukI The answer is snap traps not poison. Fight when the LAW of NATURE is violated, alarm systems all over the Conscious, Subconscious, and Unconscious UNIVERSE. Stop the CIRCULAR destruction of NATURE. The ONE verse of the UNIVERSE is a Trivium, Inputs > Process > Outputs Let's only put GOOD in the world.
- istinetz 5y ago
  Wot
  - foxhop 5y ago
    Poison kills the target and has a blast radius down the "food chain". Humans are terrible at 2nd order (or more) affects.
  - collinvandyck76 5y ago
    timecube
ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
It also has a gray market problem. I ordered a webcam on Amazon, some time ago. Amazon had it listed as “official,” and had a link to the manufacturer’s store page at the top. It was a “Fulfilled by Amazon” product, which should have told me that it wasn’t actually coming from the manufacturer, as the listing led me to believe. However, when I received the device, it was the Chinese version (gray market), with a fairly crude sticker on the box, claiming that it was the US version (it wasn’t), even though all the packaging was Chinese. After I returned it for a refund, I attempted to write a review on the page, warning of the scam, complete with a photo of the sticker, and the review was rejected by Amazon. They completely ignored my reports. As far as I know, the item is still listed, with hundreds of positive reviews (I just checked -it is). It’s fairly obvious that Amazon is directly and knowingly working with sketchy vendors, and actively suppressing attempts to expose these practices. I’m wondering if there’s a bottom to this. I think it would take a fairly aggressive effort, by multiple governments, to stop it, and I suspect the will is not there. There’s probably a lot of money being made, and many people would be perfectly happy with the gray market device (until they try to upgrade it, or get it fixed). I did let the manufacturer know (when I ordered the real device, directly from them). I saw many complaints on the manufacturer’s support site about the same exact issue (which is why gray markets are such a brand-damaging problem). I would not be surprised if the manufacturer was afraid to do anything about it, as Amazon is an 800lb gorilla.
- TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
  Amazon's inventory commingling means that if a product has both a legitimate and illegitimate seller, you can order “from” the former and get the latter's product.
- lotsofpulp 5y ago
  Amazon used to have a webpage that clearly stated they commingle inventory from all sellers, so it has long been public information that when you buy something on Amazon.com, the seller you buy from does not matter.
  - ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago
skissane 5y ago
Brodifacoum? I don’t buy that on Amazon, I buy it at my local supermarket. Not the US, Australia. I’ve never heard any controversy about availability of brodifacoum in Australia (maybe some environmental or animal welfare group has complained, but if so I haven’t heard about it) Glue traps, now that’s controversial. In the state of Victoria, illegal to use in residential settings (on animal welfare grounds), but still legal to use in some agricultural and industrial settings. I’m in New South Wales where residential use is legal, but you won’t find them on sale except in rural supply stores
- hilbert42 5y ago
  "I buy it at my local supermarket. Not the US, Australia. I’ve never heard any controversy about availability of brodifacoum in Australia....)." I can confirm that, just went to my armory where I stockpile my weapons and ammo for use in the never ending war against four and six-legged house invaders and read a few packet labels. I live in a location that I unashamedly call Ratsville or Cockroach City depending on species that is causing the most mayhem at the time so it's always advisable one's armory is well stocked with pleanty of ammo. OK, what I found was two new 200g packets of pellet-type Talon brand Rat and Mouse Killer, each pack consisting of four 50g sub-packs which are used still hold/contain the pellets when distributed. I also found two Talon All Weather Wax Blocks (remains of a larger pack). Rats just love those wax blocks - much more so than the pellets (they're my 88mm defenses. ;-) Both the blocks and pellets were purchased at the local supermarket and contain 0.05g/kg brodifacoum. These are just the domestic packages, bigger packages can be bought at hardware stores, on eBay etc. without effort. Note: both the full packaging and sub-packs are clearly labeled Ready to Use Bait : For Use in & Around Buildings : Controls Species Resistant to Warfarin. In my opinion, the packaging and presentation is about a safe as you could make it for a domestic product. - It's clearly labeled in large white lettering 'POISON' under which it says 'KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN' - all on a bright red background. - Printed in big type on all packaging is the following: 'POISONS INFORMATION CENTRE : 131 126 : ALL HOURS : AUSTRALIA WIDE'. - The packaging has a proper comprehensive 'how to use/bating strategy'. - There's a well written section about not contaminating waterways, dams, drains, etc. Also says not to be used to control native species, etc. without wildlife authorities permission, etc. - A section about disposal of remaining product, it too is clear and well written. - Section on Safety Directions including details about the antidote Vitamin K1 (Phytomenadione). - Has a special section 'Note to physicians and veterinarians' about the blood-thinning nature of the product and the correct administration of the antidote (vit K1). - Packing advises in bold red type that the product contains 'Human taste deterrent BITREX, prevents accidental consumption by children'. [My comment: BITREX is the chemical denatonium, a type of QUAT/quaternary ammonium compound, it's the most bitter substance known to human tase, some other animals cannot taste it - rats for instance. For the same reason it's also used for denaturing ethanol, ethylene glycol (antifreeze), etc.] I'm not going to comment on whether brodifacoum is the most appropriate rodenticide available or not as that is not my expertise. However, I've had some training in chemistry and I've seen a lot of toxic substances over the years (and labeled as such), and I'd go so far as to say that this is the most responsible labeling I've ever seen on any poison for domestic use. Right, there are fuckwits out there who cannot be trusted with anything and they'd screw this product up too given half a chance. That said, if the simple and clear instructions are followed, it's likely reasonably safe to use. I contrast that with the common rodenticides of yesteryear some of which I personally recall - thallium and strychnine for instance. (When I was about eight/nine years old I watched my lovely pet kelpie sheepdog Binky die of strychnine poisoning - poisoned by some damn lowlife for no good reason (even now, if I knew who it was I'd have to be restrained from attacking him/her). Watching my pet dog die in such utter agony was one of the most terrible moments of my life and it's still etched on my memory as if it were yesterday. Strychnine, which could easily bought at the local pharmacy when I was a kid, is one of the most diabolical poisons known: it not only kills with great potency but does so with a vengeance - with terrible pain and convulsions. It keeps its victim fully conscious until the bitter end and even then that's not enough, by nature/in small doses strychnine is a stimulant so all the victim's senses are heightened - while killing it concomitantly tortures its victim in the most excruciating way imaginable. By contrast, brodifacoum is noting like as merciless, and its vitamin K1 antidote is very effective. It's a great improvement over that 'evil' from the Strychnos nux-vomica plant.)
thrower123 5y ago
I never liked using DCON and other rat poisons because it just means they crawl off and die somewhere in the wall where they have their nest. And then they rot and stink there, where you can't get at them.
giantg2 5y ago
Is there really any benefit to poison? There're variety of effective traps. At least with traps you know where the dead (or live) rat is and it's not going to cause problems like dying behind a wall or something.
- notacoward 5y ago
  Poison is convenient. For one thing, it's effective even without any effort or skill. Setting an old-fashioned trap is not hard, but it does take a bit of practice to get the sensitivity just right. I've known lots of people who set theirs so that they wouldn't trigger for anything smaller than a capybara, watched their bait get stolen a couple of times, and then gave up. Also, the very same feature of knowing whether you caught something also means you have to see it and dispose of it. I have no problem with any of this, but many people do. Usually they only find out about poison's down sides when it's too late. BTW some of the older poisons advertised that victims would actively seek to get outside before they died, which would avoid the "died in the wall" problem. Such claims might or might not have been true, but people continue to believe that for all poisons.
kumarsw 5y ago
One thing that the article didn't mention is that second generation rodenticides are actually not especially dangerous to pets assuming that the owners are aware of the symptoms (usually lethargy and discolored lips). For warfarin the LD50 for cats is actually quite high - quite surprising for an animal that is vulnerable to kidney damage - and the treatment is a series of vitamin K injections. So good news for pet owners with crazy neighbors. None of this is helpful for wild predators of course, and rodenticides are more likely to be used in rural areas where both rodents and their predators are present.
JohnJamesRambo 5y ago
I wonder if this is what killed our beloved cat Eli. He was just dead one day laying in the doghouse, no apparent trauma of any kind. I can see the idiot show hog owning neighbor using a lot of baits like this.
- berkes 5y ago
  A neighbor-kid found our cat, Ziggy, in the grass early in the morning. Ziggy was in a terrible state. Soaked (it was raining), shaking, full on hypothermia, foam on his mouth and terrified - apparently he was conscious of his surroundings still, but could not move. Brought him to the emergency vet. Made it. But barely. Vet thought he wasn't, but we asked to try anyway. They give the cat loads of greasy puree. Rat and mouse-poison binds to that. Cost us an arm and a leg; something I thought I'd never do for an animal. But stress and full on "sunken cost fallacy - we already drove all the way, might as wel...". He made it, which makes it worth it in the end though. Emailed all neighbors not to do this. We live in a nature-reserve, so with all the hawks, storks, buzzards, badgers and minks, it really is unacceptable. Two neighbors confined that they got some poison illegally (this is The Netherlands where no such poisons may be sold to consumers) on the internet, unaware of the risks, and harm to animals. Me: "you were unaware of the harm that a poison for animals, does to animals?" I'm a beekeeper, the same happens there too "Huh? Never realized that insecticide is bad for bees, thought it only worked on wasps and flies. ...".
14 5y ago
I can’t stand that we live in world where one day in the need it questions things like but apocalypse and the disappearance of them, then the next I’m reading rat poisons easily bought to kill rodents (not confusing bugs and rodents but hate that we kill things in general). My city sprays lots of herbicides every year as well which is debatable if it is harmful to insects. Why are people so against bugs? I’ve let spiders live in my room for a long time. Rodents can be kept out of your house by securing your perimeter and making sure their are no holes in your vents or cracks in the wall. Why people are allowed to buy such poisons with no oversight how to properly use them is a failure in my mind. Can we please stop the attack on unwanted plants and animals through the use of toxic chemicals please.
h2odragon 5y ago
An empty, upright, open 5 gallon bucket is an effective mouse trap. Put something beside it so they can get up to the rim, and make sure the inside's empty and smooth so they can't get out. After the first one falls in and dies of thirst, others will follow to investigate the smell. If you want to bait it initially a bit of peanut butter near the rim for smell should be enough. We make a habit of leaving water and garden buckets upside down, outside, so we won't discover dead mice in them when we use them.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
authed 5y ago
Here is a cool mouse trap video that also shows you that Google not only censors white supremacists, terrorists and similar content: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKyIcX6I_AQ&t=726s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKyIcX6I_AQ&t=726s
fortran77 5y ago
I've also seen Termite pesticides with similar sales restrictions for sale -- and there are plenty of how-to videos now on how to apply them yourself, without the need for some company to come over and tent your house, etc.
- syshum 5y ago
  That is the thing people often do not understand about regulations, even EPA regulations. It is very often not about safety or protection of environment, it is about protectionism of businesses. No Pleb you are clearly to dumb to do anything for yourself, you must depend on "The Experts" that are government approved "professionals", never ever do anything for yourself....
  - Spivak 5y ago
    I mean I think I would be fine with a world where anyone could buy the stuff so long as they went through and passed a class on how to use it. I think that would be a fine middle-ground.
notacoward 5y ago
This has been a problem in my suburban neighborhood the last couple of years. Each spring, there's a very sudden die-off among the local chipmunk population. I've found a couple of the bodies, showing classic signs of SGAR poisoning. Haven't particularly noticed an effect on the local raptor population, but I don't see all that many even in the best of times so it's hard to tell. One pet dog has died, another couple have become severely ill. The close timing and extent suggests that it's a careless pest-control contractor rather than dozens of homeowners acting independently, but no culprit has been identified yet. These chemicals are supposed to be used for rats because many rats have developed resistance to other chemicals, but I very much doubt that rats are the problem around here. Never seen one, or signs of one. People are using these poisons to control mice, which most definitely are a problem, and it's literally overkill. Personally I burn through a handful of snap traps every year (PB and Nutella are my baits of choice). There are other effective techniques as well, several mentioned here. Like "last line of defense" antibiotics, SGARs should be a last resort for pests which can't be dealt with by other means.
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Amazon should pay for cleanup, at least then there is some self regulating pressure.
- Spivak 5y ago
  I don’t really think this is Amazon’s fault since they sell a huge amount of products aimed at professionals. For SMBs it’s not common for Amazon to be their main supplier. Exterminators are a licensed profession in most states and rather than leveraging that system to control poison distribution they said “eh just don’t sell it at Lowes” and hoped people wouldn’t find out what stores you can actually buy it at. I think it should be cleaned up but punitive damages for online retailers seems a stretch since it seems arguable they were following the law.
boppo1 5y ago
my parents have mice in their attic & have pretty much just been letting the problem go after 8 snap traps only got one. They don't leave the attic & are only there in winter. What's the harm of ignoring them?
- dmitrygr 5y ago
  Chewed wires and ruined insulation
- astura 5y ago
  They can cause structural damage and their urine and feces are a human health hazard.
johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago
Amazon skirts a lot of consumer protection laws for the sake of profit. Pill presses are regulated in Canada. [0] If you bring one into the country the government wants you to register that fact with them. Amazon.ca doesn't even try to hide the fact that they sell pill presses. [1] They're branded as "vitamin supplement devices" but they're definitely, obviously, pill presses. [0] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/meeting-legal-requirements-manufacturing-drug-health-products/guidance-document.html#a1 https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/meeting-lega... [1] https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=pill+press&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=pill+press&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
emodendroket 5y ago
It's amazing how quickly one's scruples about using pesticides disappear with a persistent pest problem, but yes, this does need to be controlled at the source.
rstuart4133 5y ago
I stumbled across corn starch a while ago, after I nearly killed one of my dogs with these poisons. Corn starch, as in the packet of "corn flour" many people will have sitting in their pantries (it makes a very good thickener) that we all eat and is totally harmless to just about anything. Anything except rodents, apparently. What I stumbled across said it's a very effective rodenticide: http://www.ratpoisonfacts.org/low-toxicity-rodenticides/ http://www.ratpoisonfacts.org/low-toxicity-rodenticides/ My initial reaction was "bullshit". But intrigued I searched further. You can't use anything in the EU without some declaration, and indeed there is a declaration saying you are allowed to use corn starch as a rodenticide in the EU: https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/44bfef85-fb69-79f0-c0d7-87f0779ffe2a https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/44bfef85-fb69-79f0-c0... It's even mentioned on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powdered_corn_cob https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powdered_corn_cob and you can buy it off the shelf: https://myhousepests.com/rats/natural-rat-poison.html https://myhousepests.com/rats/natural-rat-poison.html. Needless to say, it's total harmless to cats, dogs, kids and owls. And painless for the rodents. They starve and dehydrate, dying of heart failure in the end, but yet don't feel thirsty or hungry, apparently. But they do feel lethargic and generally wander off outside to die in a burrow somewhere, so the smell isn't a problem. It is in short the perfect rodenticide. It's almost magic. But not in Australia, because it's not approved as a rodenticide in Australia. I have no idea why. Maybe it really is a scam, or even a giant conspiracy by the rats to trick us into feeding them. The Australian government is very good at proactive protecting it's citizens from scams. (I think that's why we are one of the worst countries in the world at falling for internet scams per capita - because this person wouldn't be contacting me if the government didn't allow it.) And if it's so cheap, natural and safe, why the hell isn't everyone using it instead of these other poisons??? I'm leaning towards a conspiracy. A conspiracy by the rats, or a conspiracy by the poisons manufacturers so they can keep selling us expensive poisons. But definitely a conspiracy.
throwaway0a5e 5y ago
I think it's worth noting that there's tons of small businesses that plug holes in their supply chain or obtain rarely used things using regular old eCommmmerce channels. The farmer or the facility manager should not be forced to deal with b2b supply houses who price gouge on retail sales (HVAC and metals are two industries that come to mind) in order to buy his pesticides, or any other substance because people in high end subdivisions are spraying too many chemicals on their foundations (or whatever, you get the drift).

336 points by axiomdata316 5y ago

It feels like no one in this thread lives in an urban area with a persistent rat problem. We tried multiple types of traps; snap, glue, electrification. "Eco friendly" sprays, bait boxes, you name it. Nothing works. When your wife is hesitant to leave the house because of the rats gamboling near the front door drastic action is needed. I'm not advocating for brodifacoum but the comments here seem tone deaf and one dimensional.

Syonyk 5y ago

Ew. Not surprised you can buy the stuff that professionals shy away from for being too damned toxic, to your door, overnight delivery. Plus good reviews, hard to leave a bad review for it when you're bleeding out in the ER. I don't use poisons for pest control. We have too many owls, hawks, and the occasional eagle overhead. I'll kill stuff mechanically (damned pocket gophers...) and toss the carcass out where something will find it and eat it, but I won't poison them. The best mouse trap is actually a slightly erratic supply of cat food.

hamstergene 5y ago
Good reviews also barely mean anything these days. The worst item I have ever bought online, which damaged itself on opening for 100% of buyers, had ~4.1 rating. At this point, it is fair to say getting less than 4 stars means the seller was too poor/naive to hire "online promotion" services or whatever they are called, rather than anything else.
- 7952 5y ago
  Redordering reviews by date helps a lot.
- zrm 5y ago
  Similar to eBay seller ratings where 99.9% positive feedback means you might get your item, whereas 95% positive feedback implies the seller is stealing the goods from the factory that counterfeits them and whether you receive anything depends mainly on how the shipping carrier handles a package that catches fire in transit. Less than 80% positive feedback has never been observed but would presumably involve the seller coming to your house to murder you and steal your identity and then using your account to leave negative feedback for themselves.
  - kstenerud 5y ago
    I spit my tea all over at that last sentence.
  - alpaca128 5y ago
    This has the same energy as that "you wouldn't steal a car" ad in IT Crowd. But it's not far from the truth, and unless 10 news websites report on it online platforms won't even bother with an empty statement. Amazon for example lets vendors transfer good reviews to any other product by just replacing the product entry (name, description, price). Sure you then have reviews for coffee cups under some solder wire, but it fools enough users. And if the reviews are too negative you can just remove the product offer and immediately create it again.
    - nefitty 5y ago
      I think it's also review shyness. My wife yelled at me once (like real, oh shit I'm in trouble, yell) for leaving a 1 star review for an Uber driver who sped the whole way and ran a red light.
      - MereInterest 5y ago
        That's caused by excessive metric tracking on the part of companies, and passing the blame down to individual employees. When a 5-star rating is the default and anything else is a push for the person to be fired, of course people won't leave negative reviews, that's going to prevent people from leaving accurate reviews. If I could trust reviews to be used in good faith (e.g. by paying employees a living wage and not implicitly requiring dangerous behavior to meet quotas), then I could leave more accurate reviews.
OneLeggedCat 5y ago
I have a terrible pocket gopher problem. They absolutely have to be dealt with when they come out of hibernation this year. What's you're favorite trap for them?
- sgtnoodle 5y ago
  After years of trouble, my wife finally found success with a GopherHawk.
  - OneLeggedCat 5y ago
    That does indeed look very effective.
- Syonyk 5y ago
  I've got some long black traps with a "flag" on them that pops when triggered, and those seem to work well enough. A chunk of rebar to poke around and find the tunnel, a bit of hand digging, and I can start pulling 'em out in a hurry.
zionic 5y ago
Sounds like a great way to give your cat toxoplasmosis, which will eventually infect you via feces spread if they’re indoor/outdoor.

KingMachiavelli 5y ago

What's surprising is why people would buy this over the more obvious search result 'Rat Poison'. Perhaps Amazon has already adjusted the search results but the top results for 'rat poison' were Cholecalciferol and Bromethalin based products. Does Brodifacoum work the best? What's driving consumers to search for a specific type of poison. > Things haven’t quite worked out as the EPA envisioned. When I first started browsing Amazon, neither the cost nor the size seemed particularly egregious to me. A single bucket—similar in size to a container of birdseed—seemed sufficient for my small yard. Is putting poison over an entire yard a common/reasonable usage? I've really only needed to put poison out in a few problematic locations i.e where rodents have been seen like garages, basements, food pantry, etc. Covering an entire area like you would with grass seed or rock salt seems almost deliberately malicious.

sdenton4 5y ago
One can easily imagine the thoughts of the uninformed internet researcher: "Well, when I shopped around, these 12 gallon buckets we're the minimum size, so I guess you need to use a lot of it..."
estaseuropano 5y ago
I don't know if that's what they mean, but the pest control guy advised me to put poison in every single room, and in large rooms at several locations as often you will not know where they really stay/forage. E.g. you might notice the one mouse that goesi in the kitchen but not the others that live in the attic. Then again, maybe he was just trying to sell more.
NavinF 5y ago
Never had to deal with a rat problem, but lemme put myself in the shoes of someone who tried using cheap single-mouse traps and found they didn’t work. At that point I would google for the most effective poison (using some metric like time to death or LD50 per kg), check exterminator forums to see what they use as a last resort, etc. If the product is as deadly as promised, I’d give it a 5* rating and recommend it to all my IRL friends. Personally I’ve been burned by milquetoast products such as “eco friendly” cleaning liquids that just don’t work. Product with many warning labels that are clearly targeted towards professionals are so much more effective in general.

s5300 5y ago

We (younger than 30ish) are in for some crazy times IMO You can order parts to reliably make guns fully automatic straight to your door, thousands of rounds of ammunition for a weeks worth of minimum wage work straight to your door, poisons such as what this article refers to straight to your door… gun suppressors straight to your door… I just think were going to see a ton of people in the US snapping and doing crazy shit if we fall into economic decline & keep dismantling our social safety nets. When I was living in San Diego, I became aware of a dude in a totally normal ass suburb leaving poisoned meat around the entire block, for months on end, after the apparent last straw of dog shit on his lawn snapped. I’m not entirely sure why, but everybody knew - and the cops/city did nothing/were unable to do anything about it. Would be crazy to find out if he was getting whatever poison he used straight from Amazon.

seabird 5y ago
You can order parts to make your gun fully automatic straight to your door without filling out a Form 4 if you want to commit a federal crime that the ATF likely will follow up on. You can order suppressors straight to your door without filling out a Form 4 if you want to commit a federal crime that the ATF likely will follow up on. You can _not_ buy thousands of rounds worth of any ammo other than .22 with a week's worth of minimum wage pay (if you know something that I don't, let me know where you're finding these deals). The time will probably come for poison like this very soon. None of this is to say that terrorism isn't fairly easy, all things considered. The law does very little to stop these things before they happen. The big takeaway is that the vast majority of people aren't violent and unreasonable. You've always been able to do these things, usually more easily in the past than you could today, but we've never had issues with it (at least in the US) to the point where the average person you bump into on the street will have personally experienced it.
- sueders101 5y ago
  "You can _not_ buy thousands of rounds worth of any ammo other than .22 with a week's worth of minimum wage pay (if you know something that I don't, let me know where you're finding these deals)." It's pretty close. Ammoseek shows 9mm starting at ~$0.30 per round, and most other popular pistol calibers starting at ~$0.40 to ~$0.45 per round. And it's easy to find better deals if you're checking the r/gundeals subreddit periodically. That puts 2000 rounds of 9mm at around the gross income weekly income for someone earning $15/hour.

Swenrekcah 5y ago

If governments could put half the effort they put into chasing drugs into actually policing these substances…

oasisbob 5y ago

Interestingly, the AG of Washington state just settled with Amazon over this same kind of borderline and illegal sales: https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-agrees-to-pay-2-5m-to-settle-pesticide-sales-lawsuit/ https://www.seattletimes.com/business/amazon/amazon-agrees-t...

ars 5y ago

As someone who needed some rodenticide, what is actually needed is not restriction on these poisons, but rather very authoritative sites with advice on the best stuff to get, that is actually safe and effective. It's surprisingly hard to research what poisons are actually good to use, you'll either gets sites shilling stuff that completely doesn't work, but is "eco friendly" (for example "Rat-X"), and sites that simply give you the "most effective", i.e. most poisonous (like the ones in this article). What's needed are sites explaining, for an average person, what's they should be getting. People aren't trying to kill birds, they just are getting really bad advice on what to buy. Bromethalin is a good choice, if you use a bait station (it has no antidote, so always use a bait station, never just tie the blocks somewhere).

gameman144 5y ago
Eh, I'm not sure I agree. I think the natural tendency for people is to think "My case is different, I need the strongest tool for this job!". People stock their medicine cabinets with Extra Strength Tylenol instead of regular, or buy anti-bacterial soap instead of normal soap, because it's easier to go straight for the big guns. Even in these small cases the information is tremendously easy to find and people don't look for it and/or care about it. The consequences of the wrong Tylenol or anti-bacterial soap are small comparatively, but when the consequences of bad choices get in the way of ecological conservation for no good reason, it seems like that's prime territory for regulation.
- jjoonathan 5y ago
  No, they aren't thinking "my case is different," they are expecting the market to be flooded with ineffective products marketed as "safe alternatives." Because it is. They are grasping at any piece of information they can find to fight the overwhelming tidal wave of ineffective non-solutions.
WalterBright 5y ago
Get the old wood-and-wire snap traps. The design is centuries old, and they work. They make them rat-size, too.

WalterBright 5y ago

I use the old-fashioned snap traps. They work fine. Sometimes it's necessary to tweak the catch to make it more sensitive. They're made of wood and wire, and aren't an environmental problem. I live near a greenbelt and there's a never-ending invasion of mice. If I leave the garage door open and unattended, they're in in a flash and setting up shop. The only way to get rid of them is the traps, and you have to get rid of them. Peanut butter bait is irresistible. I used to use gloves to bait them cuz the books say they mice are deterred by human smell. They aren't. They aren't deterred by The Cat, either, as they know The Cat prefers human flesh. They're not very smart, either, as if you put two traps adjacent, they'll crawl over the body of their buddy dead in the first one and get caught by the second.

jrootabega 5y ago
I think it's highly variable, depending on the size of the population, how hungry they are, if they have other food options available, and their culture and genetics. Sometimes the traps get them, and sometimes they definitely don't. And if the traps don't get all of them, the problem isn't really addressed.
geon 5y ago
Snap traps work great. Mice are INCREDIBLY stupid. I set some snap traps at my cottage. I ran out of almonds, but I was too lazy to go inside for more, so for the last trap I just used an acorn. Sure enough, it caught a mouse. With thousands of acorns all over my yard. A bucket with a free-spinning dowel across it works very well too. Although, where I live they are illegal to use unless you empty them twice daily. And any use of water or chemicals with them is illegal.
netcan 5y ago
Rats tend to be more clever, and harder to trap than mice
- WalterBright 5y ago
  The snap traps still work on them every time.

geuis 5y ago

Ok this is insane. A couple days ago I was trying to purchase some new inexpensive but highly reviewed smoke detectors for my apartment. However I ran into an issue that due to some California law, they can’t be delivered because they have to be “10 year” units. The 10-year units are 2-3x the price. On a whim just a couple minutes ago, I did the same search the author did in the article for “bromethalin” on Amazon. Lots of products showed up. I picked the one that had next day Prime delivery for San Francisco. At this step I just left it in my cart. https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005BV0DD2?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_prod_image https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d/B005BV0DD2?ref=ppx_pt2_mob_b_... I read a bit further into the article where he talks about California it’s banned. To double check that, I went ahead and completed the order. Went through just fine. Confirmed delivery by tomorrow, 12/12/2021. Then I had a momentary minor freak out and cancelled the order asap. So yeah OP has an entirely valid point and it’s incredibly easy to buy this stuff. I even went with Amazon’s recommendation and got free shipping.

amatecha 5y ago

Happy to report I can't seem to find any products that contain either brodifacoum nor bromethalin on Amazon in Canada (not that I searched super-extensively). Sadly I could see a review on one product where someone specifically says "Don't order this from Amazon.ca! Order from Amazon.COM and pick it up at the border, because the chemical it uses is banned in Canada!" ... Really great advice there, buddy...

strenholme 5y ago

Well, in my case, I have a cat. Nice to have around, and I have never had a rat problem with her in my life.

elurg 5y ago

Anyone surprised that the title is not a metaphor? The article is about the literal sale of substances which are harmful when ingested by rodents.

just-tom 5y ago
Yeah I was like, hmmm who are the rats in this? What is the poison? Maybe it's me?? I have to change my ways!
progre 5y ago
Yep, I totally thought that it would be about some law that ruins the internet for everyone while at the same time does nothing to stop bad actors. Like the EU cookie warning mandate.
- justsaying9 5y ago
  God I hate that bullshit. They have accomplished what, exactly? Oh, a big annoying banner that I now have to click through. So helpful. A testament to the stupidity of mankind.
  - marcosdumay 5y ago
    > They have accomplished what, exactly? They made tracking annoying and evident.
    - justsaying9 5y ago
      Which, again, accomplishes what, exactly? "What? This site uses cookies? I am shocked--shocked I say!--to learn cookies are being used on this web site! I had NO IDEA that was going on! Why, it's not like they have been doing that for 25+ years, or anything!" Is this going to stop companies from tracking people? Of course not. It does absolutely nothing to stop any of that. All it does is create yet another useless, annoying fucking popup I have to click through. Instead of being silently tracked, now I'm tracked, plus annoyed, and being FORCED to agree with it. Even though I don't even live in the God damned EU and neither do many of the web sites I access. Like I said--a perfect example of how brain dead retarded humanity is. A failed species. Bring on the giant asteroid, any day now GOD.

micetraps 5y ago

No poison needed. https://www.youtube.com/c/ShawnWoodsprimitive-archer https://www.youtube.com/c/ShawnWoodsprimitive-archer Warning: some people may find some videos disturbing.

foxhop 5y ago

I moonlight as a YouTuber showing how to GROW food on 1/3 acre. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZIumjXukI https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=p1ZIumjXukI The answer is snap traps not poison. Fight when the LAW of NATURE is violated, alarm systems all over the Conscious, Subconscious, and Unconscious UNIVERSE. Stop the CIRCULAR destruction of NATURE. The ONE verse of the UNIVERSE is a Trivium, Inputs > Process > Outputs Let's only put GOOD in the world.

istinetz 5y ago
Wot
- foxhop 5y ago
  Poison kills the target and has a blast radius down the "food chain". Humans are terrible at 2nd order (or more) affects.
- collinvandyck76 5y ago
  timecube

ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

It also has a gray market problem. I ordered a webcam on Amazon, some time ago. Amazon had it listed as “official,” and had a link to the manufacturer’s store page at the top. It was a “Fulfilled by Amazon” product, which should have told me that it wasn’t actually coming from the manufacturer, as the listing led me to believe. However, when I received the device, it was the Chinese version (gray market), with a fairly crude sticker on the box, claiming that it was the US version (it wasn’t), even though all the packaging was Chinese. After I returned it for a refund, I attempted to write a review on the page, warning of the scam, complete with a photo of the sticker, and the review was rejected by Amazon. They completely ignored my reports. As far as I know, the item is still listed, with hundreds of positive reviews (I just checked -it is). It’s fairly obvious that Amazon is directly and knowingly working with sketchy vendors, and actively suppressing attempts to expose these practices. I’m wondering if there’s a bottom to this. I think it would take a fairly aggressive effort, by multiple governments, to stop it, and I suspect the will is not there. There’s probably a lot of money being made, and many people would be perfectly happy with the gray market device (until they try to upgrade it, or get it fixed). I did let the manufacturer know (when I ordered the real device, directly from them). I saw many complaints on the manufacturer’s support site about the same exact issue (which is why gray markets are such a brand-damaging problem). I would not be surprised if the manufacturer was afraid to do anything about it, as Amazon is an 800lb gorilla.

TazeTSchnitzel 5y ago
Amazon's inventory commingling means that if a product has both a legitimate and illegitimate seller, you can order “from” the former and get the latter's product.
lotsofpulp 5y ago
Amazon used to have a webpage that clearly stated they commingle inventory from all sellers, so it has long been public information that when you buy something on Amazon.com, the seller you buy from does not matter.
- ChrisMarshallNY 5y ago

skissane 5y ago

Brodifacoum? I don’t buy that on Amazon, I buy it at my local supermarket. Not the US, Australia. I’ve never heard any controversy about availability of brodifacoum in Australia (maybe some environmental or animal welfare group has complained, but if so I haven’t heard about it) Glue traps, now that’s controversial. In the state of Victoria, illegal to use in residential settings (on animal welfare grounds), but still legal to use in some agricultural and industrial settings. I’m in New South Wales where residential use is legal, but you won’t find them on sale except in rural supply stores

hilbert42 5y ago
"I buy it at my local supermarket. Not the US, Australia. I’ve never heard any controversy about availability of brodifacoum in Australia....)." I can confirm that, just went to my armory where I stockpile my weapons and ammo for use in the never ending war against four and six-legged house invaders and read a few packet labels. I live in a location that I unashamedly call Ratsville or Cockroach City depending on species that is causing the most mayhem at the time so it's always advisable one's armory is well stocked with pleanty of ammo. OK, what I found was two new 200g packets of pellet-type Talon brand Rat and Mouse Killer, each pack consisting of four 50g sub-packs which are used still hold/contain the pellets when distributed. I also found two Talon All Weather Wax Blocks (remains of a larger pack). Rats just love those wax blocks - much more so than the pellets (they're my 88mm defenses. ;-) Both the blocks and pellets were purchased at the local supermarket and contain 0.05g/kg brodifacoum. These are just the domestic packages, bigger packages can be bought at hardware stores, on eBay etc. without effort. Note: both the full packaging and sub-packs are clearly labeled Ready to Use Bait : For Use in & Around Buildings : Controls Species Resistant to Warfarin. In my opinion, the packaging and presentation is about a safe as you could make it for a domestic product. - It's clearly labeled in large white lettering 'POISON' under which it says 'KEEP OUT OF THE REACH OF CHILDREN' - all on a bright red background. - Printed in big type on all packaging is the following: 'POISONS INFORMATION CENTRE : 131 126 : ALL HOURS : AUSTRALIA WIDE'. - The packaging has a proper comprehensive 'how to use/bating strategy'. - There's a well written section about not contaminating waterways, dams, drains, etc. Also says not to be used to control native species, etc. without wildlife authorities permission, etc. - A section about disposal of remaining product, it too is clear and well written. - Section on Safety Directions including details about the antidote Vitamin K1 (Phytomenadione). - Has a special section 'Note to physicians and veterinarians' about the blood-thinning nature of the product and the correct administration of the antidote (vit K1). - Packing advises in bold red type that the product contains 'Human taste deterrent BITREX, prevents accidental consumption by children'. [My comment: BITREX is the chemical denatonium, a type of QUAT/quaternary ammonium compound, it's the most bitter substance known to human tase, some other animals cannot taste it - rats for instance. For the same reason it's also used for denaturing ethanol, ethylene glycol (antifreeze), etc.] I'm not going to comment on whether brodifacoum is the most appropriate rodenticide available or not as that is not my expertise. However, I've had some training in chemistry and I've seen a lot of toxic substances over the years (and labeled as such), and I'd go so far as to say that this is the most responsible labeling I've ever seen on any poison for domestic use. Right, there are fuckwits out there who cannot be trusted with anything and they'd screw this product up too given half a chance. That said, if the simple and clear instructions are followed, it's likely reasonably safe to use. I contrast that with the common rodenticides of yesteryear some of which I personally recall - thallium and strychnine for instance. (When I was about eight/nine years old I watched my lovely pet kelpie sheepdog Binky die of strychnine poisoning - poisoned by some damn lowlife for no good reason (even now, if I knew who it was I'd have to be restrained from attacking him/her). Watching my pet dog die in such utter agony was one of the most terrible moments of my life and it's still etched on my memory as if it were yesterday. Strychnine, which could easily bought at the local pharmacy when I was a kid, is one of the most diabolical poisons known: it not only kills with great potency but does so with a vengeance - with terrible pain and convulsions. It keeps its victim fully conscious until the bitter end and even then that's not enough, by nature/in small doses strychnine is a stimulant so all the victim's senses are heightened - while killing it concomitantly tortures its victim in the most excruciating way imaginable. By contrast, brodifacoum is noting like as merciless, and its vitamin K1 antidote is very effective. It's a great improvement over that 'evil' from the Strychnos nux-vomica plant.)

thrower123 5y ago

I never liked using DCON and other rat poisons because it just means they crawl off and die somewhere in the wall where they have their nest. And then they rot and stink there, where you can't get at them.

giantg2 5y ago

Is there really any benefit to poison? There're variety of effective traps. At least with traps you know where the dead (or live) rat is and it's not going to cause problems like dying behind a wall or something.

notacoward 5y ago
Poison is convenient. For one thing, it's effective even without any effort or skill. Setting an old-fashioned trap is not hard, but it does take a bit of practice to get the sensitivity just right. I've known lots of people who set theirs so that they wouldn't trigger for anything smaller than a capybara, watched their bait get stolen a couple of times, and then gave up. Also, the very same feature of knowing whether you caught something also means you have to see it and dispose of it. I have no problem with any of this, but many people do. Usually they only find out about poison's down sides when it's too late. BTW some of the older poisons advertised that victims would actively seek to get outside before they died, which would avoid the "died in the wall" problem. Such claims might or might not have been true, but people continue to believe that for all poisons.

kumarsw 5y ago

One thing that the article didn't mention is that second generation rodenticides are actually not especially dangerous to pets assuming that the owners are aware of the symptoms (usually lethargy and discolored lips). For warfarin the LD50 for cats is actually quite high - quite surprising for an animal that is vulnerable to kidney damage - and the treatment is a series of vitamin K injections. So good news for pet owners with crazy neighbors. None of this is helpful for wild predators of course, and rodenticides are more likely to be used in rural areas where both rodents and their predators are present.

JohnJamesRambo 5y ago

I wonder if this is what killed our beloved cat Eli. He was just dead one day laying in the doghouse, no apparent trauma of any kind. I can see the idiot show hog owning neighbor using a lot of baits like this.

berkes 5y ago
A neighbor-kid found our cat, Ziggy, in the grass early in the morning. Ziggy was in a terrible state. Soaked (it was raining), shaking, full on hypothermia, foam on his mouth and terrified - apparently he was conscious of his surroundings still, but could not move. Brought him to the emergency vet. Made it. But barely. Vet thought he wasn't, but we asked to try anyway. They give the cat loads of greasy puree. Rat and mouse-poison binds to that. Cost us an arm and a leg; something I thought I'd never do for an animal. But stress and full on "sunken cost fallacy - we already drove all the way, might as wel...". He made it, which makes it worth it in the end though. Emailed all neighbors not to do this. We live in a nature-reserve, so with all the hawks, storks, buzzards, badgers and minks, it really is unacceptable. Two neighbors confined that they got some poison illegally (this is The Netherlands where no such poisons may be sold to consumers) on the internet, unaware of the risks, and harm to animals. Me: "you were unaware of the harm that a poison for animals, does to animals?" I'm a beekeeper, the same happens there too "Huh? Never realized that insecticide is bad for bees, thought it only worked on wasps and flies. ...".

14 5y ago

I can’t stand that we live in world where one day in the need it questions things like but apocalypse and the disappearance of them, then the next I’m reading rat poisons easily bought to kill rodents (not confusing bugs and rodents but hate that we kill things in general). My city sprays lots of herbicides every year as well which is debatable if it is harmful to insects. Why are people so against bugs? I’ve let spiders live in my room for a long time. Rodents can be kept out of your house by securing your perimeter and making sure their are no holes in your vents or cracks in the wall. Why people are allowed to buy such poisons with no oversight how to properly use them is a failure in my mind. Can we please stop the attack on unwanted plants and animals through the use of toxic chemicals please.

h2odragon 5y ago

An empty, upright, open 5 gallon bucket is an effective mouse trap. Put something beside it so they can get up to the rim, and make sure the inside's empty and smooth so they can't get out. After the first one falls in and dies of thirst, others will follow to investigate the smell. If you want to bait it initially a bit of peanut butter near the rim for smell should be enough. We make a habit of leaving water and garden buckets upside down, outside, so we won't discover dead mice in them when we use them.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

authed 5y ago

Here is a cool mouse trap video that also shows you that Google not only censors white supremacists, terrorists and similar content: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKyIcX6I_AQ&t=726s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EKyIcX6I_AQ&t=726s

fortran77 5y ago

I've also seen Termite pesticides with similar sales restrictions for sale -- and there are plenty of how-to videos now on how to apply them yourself, without the need for some company to come over and tent your house, etc.

syshum 5y ago
That is the thing people often do not understand about regulations, even EPA regulations. It is very often not about safety or protection of environment, it is about protectionism of businesses. No Pleb you are clearly to dumb to do anything for yourself, you must depend on "The Experts" that are government approved "professionals", never ever do anything for yourself....
- Spivak 5y ago
  I mean I think I would be fine with a world where anyone could buy the stuff so long as they went through and passed a class on how to use it. I think that would be a fine middle-ground.

notacoward 5y ago

This has been a problem in my suburban neighborhood the last couple of years. Each spring, there's a very sudden die-off among the local chipmunk population. I've found a couple of the bodies, showing classic signs of SGAR poisoning. Haven't particularly noticed an effect on the local raptor population, but I don't see all that many even in the best of times so it's hard to tell. One pet dog has died, another couple have become severely ill. The close timing and extent suggests that it's a careless pest-control contractor rather than dozens of homeowners acting independently, but no culprit has been identified yet. These chemicals are supposed to be used for rats because many rats have developed resistance to other chemicals, but I very much doubt that rats are the problem around here. Never seen one, or signs of one. People are using these poisons to control mice, which most definitely are a problem, and it's literally overkill. Personally I burn through a handful of snap traps every year (PB and Nutella are my baits of choice). There are other effective techniques as well, several mentioned here. Like "last line of defense" antibiotics, SGARs should be a last resort for pests which can't be dealt with by other means.

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Amazon should pay for cleanup, at least then there is some self regulating pressure.

Spivak 5y ago
I don’t really think this is Amazon’s fault since they sell a huge amount of products aimed at professionals. For SMBs it’s not common for Amazon to be their main supplier. Exterminators are a licensed profession in most states and rather than leveraging that system to control poison distribution they said “eh just don’t sell it at Lowes” and hoped people wouldn’t find out what stores you can actually buy it at. I think it should be cleaned up but punitive damages for online retailers seems a stretch since it seems arguable they were following the law.

boppo1 5y ago

my parents have mice in their attic & have pretty much just been letting the problem go after 8 snap traps only got one. They don't leave the attic & are only there in winter. What's the harm of ignoring them?

dmitrygr 5y ago
Chewed wires and ruined insulation
astura 5y ago
They can cause structural damage and their urine and feces are a human health hazard.

johnnyApplePRNG 5y ago

Amazon skirts a lot of consumer protection laws for the sake of profit. Pill presses are regulated in Canada. [0] If you bring one into the country the government wants you to register that fact with them. Amazon.ca doesn't even try to hide the fact that they sell pill presses. [1] They're branded as "vitamin supplement devices" but they're definitely, obviously, pill presses. [0] https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/meeting-legal-requirements-manufacturing-drug-health-products/guidance-document.html#a1 https://www.canada.ca/en/health-canada/services/meeting-lega... [1] https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=pill+press&ref=nb_sb_noss_2 https://www.amazon.ca/s?k=pill+press&ref=nb_sb_noss_2

emodendroket 5y ago

It's amazing how quickly one's scruples about using pesticides disappear with a persistent pest problem, but yes, this does need to be controlled at the source.

rstuart4133 5y ago

I stumbled across corn starch a while ago, after I nearly killed one of my dogs with these poisons. Corn starch, as in the packet of "corn flour" many people will have sitting in their pantries (it makes a very good thickener) that we all eat and is totally harmless to just about anything. Anything except rodents, apparently. What I stumbled across said it's a very effective rodenticide: http://www.ratpoisonfacts.org/low-toxicity-rodenticides/ http://www.ratpoisonfacts.org/low-toxicity-rodenticides/ My initial reaction was "bullshit". But intrigued I searched further. You can't use anything in the EU without some declaration, and indeed there is a declaration saying you are allowed to use corn starch as a rodenticide in the EU: https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/44bfef85-fb69-79f0-c0d7-87f0779ffe2a https://echa.europa.eu/documents/10162/44bfef85-fb69-79f0-c0... It's even mentioned on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powdered_corn_cob https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Powdered_corn_cob and you can buy it off the shelf: https://myhousepests.com/rats/natural-rat-poison.html https://myhousepests.com/rats/natural-rat-poison.html. Needless to say, it's total harmless to cats, dogs, kids and owls. And painless for the rodents. They starve and dehydrate, dying of heart failure in the end, but yet don't feel thirsty or hungry, apparently. But they do feel lethargic and generally wander off outside to die in a burrow somewhere, so the smell isn't a problem. It is in short the perfect rodenticide. It's almost magic. But not in Australia, because it's not approved as a rodenticide in Australia. I have no idea why. Maybe it really is a scam, or even a giant conspiracy by the rats to trick us into feeding them. The Australian government is very good at proactive protecting it's citizens from scams. (I think that's why we are one of the worst countries in the world at falling for internet scams per capita - because this person wouldn't be contacting me if the government didn't allow it.) And if it's so cheap, natural and safe, why the hell isn't everyone using it instead of these other poisons??? I'm leaning towards a conspiracy. A conspiracy by the rats, or a conspiracy by the poisons manufacturers so they can keep selling us expensive poisons. But definitely a conspiracy.

throwaway0a5e 5y ago

I think it's worth noting that there's tons of small businesses that plug holes in their supply chain or obtain rarely used things using regular old eCommmmerce channels. The farmer or the facility manager should not be forced to deal with b2b supply houses who price gouge on retail sales (HVAC and metals are two industries that come to mind) in order to buy his pesticides, or any other substance because people in high end subdivisions are spraying too many chemicals on their foundations (or whatever, you get the drift).