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The pandemic has deepened an epidemic of loneliness

153 points by glennericksen 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
cryptodan 5y ago
I came here to post my thoughts, but I agree with everything mentioned. Here in baltimore it's about fear of being a victim of violence.
elbasti 5y ago
One of thing that is obvious to me is the bizarre cultural norm that, in the US, people are expected to move away from home at the age of 18 and then relocate more-or-less permanently far away from family and childhood friends. To my American friends this seems totally normal, and suggesting something different is ridiculed. An obvious consequence of this is that American adults have 3 or 4 "social fabric ruptures" as they grow up: 1. When they turn 18 they move far from home to go to college temporarily. They develop a new group of friends, at the expense of being far from family & home. 2. When they turn 22 they move to Big City for a job. Probably _not_ where their parents live, and almost certainly not where their college friends live. 3. There's another (optional) move to Different Big City in late 20s 4. Finally they marry and in their early 30s they move to Suburb (leaving their Big City friends behind). The result of this is an absolutely frayed social fabric. Not only do people leave their friends behind just as they start to develop deep friendships, they do so in an environment where building new friendships is harder (because they keep getting older). If one wanted to design a system that maximized unhappiness, it would be pretty close to this! Of course Americans are lonely! They keep leaving their family and friends behind! There's two reasons for this, imho. Firstly, the cultural norm of "the real college experience" requiring dorms, facilities, football stadiums, etc. Being a commuter student in the USA is weird at best at most colleges, and certainly the good ones. Secondly (and perhaps most importantly), is a set of policies (transit, zoning) that make the places where old people/families want to live different from the places young people want to live. This results in the 30-something move to the suburbs, but it also results in the 18-something move to the city or ~disneyland~ college campus: of course you don't want to be a commuter student if your parents live in the suburbs: there's nothing to do! You can't drink, you can't party, you can't do anything. This social norm has a whole other series of consequences besides just loneliness. Financially: - It's inefficient at best and ruinous at worst: Not only is sleep-away college expensive, it also creates a rat race between schools for bigger/better facilities resulting in runaway costs. - Young adults entering the workforce don't live at home, which means they don't create a savings cushion to help them buy their first home in their late 20s (compounded with college debt due to the point above) - Families with kids often end up far from grandparents/family/trusted friends, further increasing the financial "overhead" of just living.
- mountainboy 5y ago
  great insights about social fabric ruptures! so true.
- eldaisfish 5y ago
  the ability to live, work and raise a family in a very limited geographic region is a privilege. For thousands of years, those who did not have that privilege moved. They moved to different regions, different countries and even different continents. That is the human story. I expect you are from western europe as that is one of the few places on the planet where a hundred kilometres really is a long way. Even in Europe, people from the East move. They move west. The "american cultural norm" isn't something unique to north america as you've framed it although i do agree that it is quite common there.
  - cowuser666 5y ago
    I think it's a big step to say that people have done this throughout history to say it's been the norm. Fighting wars is normal historically as well, but most people in history didn't fight in a war. I think it's also worth considering the extent to which these movements you're describing would have been undertaken by groups rather than individuals.
mp3k 5y ago
Its the system. Gosh I hate the antichrist.
dukeofdoom 5y ago
get a puppy
jbrun 5y ago
It's a bit paradoxical. I have a tech company and most staff want to come to the office 1 day a week. Getting them to come is very tough. Many of my staff and friends don't want to have kids, make no effort to find a partner and find all sorts of excuses. Netflix, the internet and these things are part of the problem, but I have no clue what the solution is. There is only one way to not be lonely - be with people who care about you. That requires an investment of time and of your emotions - something many people seem unable or unwilling to do. You have to get out into the world and invest in others.
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  All I can think: turn off the internet. Internet in the morning. Have your coffee, catch up on the news, your social. Then put the internet down for the rest of the day. Go out, ride a bike with a friend, go hike with a friend, go to a coffee shop, library....
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    As apt as those suggestions may be for this crowd, they are neither practical or even polite for a huge proportion of the country.
    - therealdrag0 5y ago
      Can you elaborate?
      - mandmandam 5y ago
        There are many neighborhoods in America that don't have coffee shops, at all. And many that you wouldn't want to be caught dead cycling around in on a pushbike. On a broader scale, the median wage in America is only ~30k, while the cost of rent and basics far outpaces any increase in wages. So the idea that people would use the time off from their excessive working lives to go hiking is actually a bit insulting. The comment I responded to reeks of ignorance of the reality of the daily lives of so, so many Americans; who if they have any free time and disposable income it sure as fuck isn't going to be spent hiking up mountains and buying decent hiking gear. ... I visited Pittsburgh last winter, and was struck at the differences between neighborhoods. In Squirrel Hill the coffee shops were open and trading, the sidewalk was free of snow, people got their groceries delivered from Giant Eagle. In Braddock, the sidewalks were cracked to pieces, layered with demonically slippery ice that hadn't seen a grain of salt in years. There wasn't any cafe, or bagel shops, or proper grocery store; there was a dollar store and a bodega with people outside trying to sell me clothes, or threaten me because I only gave them a dollar. So I dare you, go to your city's equivalent of Braddock and ask them how much they like hiking. Ask them how much free time they have, ask them why they don't socialize in coffee shops. [I'm not shitting on Braddock - I liked it, there were nice people there, and many neighborhoods are far worse.] The reality is that poverty amplifies loneliness while reducing the ability to socialize, but so many Americans are happy in their little bubbles while huge portions of the country crumble around them. The world knows how unequal American society is, from welfare to justice to infrastructure; but wealthy Americans seem not to be interested (or to even think of themselves as wealthy). The blissful ignorance of most American's daily struggle is only blissful for the ignorant. This isn't flamebait or nationalistic prejudice; just my own observations about a country that seems to be racing blindly to an even darker place.
newaccount2021 5y ago
people are married to work, get their gratification from porn and buying things downside: no one to talk to
- JKCalhoun 5y ago
  > buying things I definitely see this.
  - turbinerneiter 5y ago
    I currently struggle to buy anything that would have a positive effect on my happiness. I got a motorcycle two years ago, and while I do pretty few miles, it provided quite some happiness (going on Saturday rides with a friend, general added feeling of "freedom" because of having a way to escape the city and also do short trips I usually would fret about which public transport to take or if it makes sense to use carsharing). Another thing that comes to mind is my Vacuum cleaner - I spent money on a cordless Dyson and I can clean my small flat in 15 minutes now (robot doesn't make sense due to the size). I have the budget to buy some live improving stuff, but I don't see anything.
    - deleted 5y ago
      [deleted]
    - frontman1988 5y ago
      Buy experiences if you can. You won't regret a good vacation or time spent on a hobby you enjoy.
  - panaffa 5y ago
    I buy things to fill my own emptiness. Currently the most exciting thing in my life is waiting for my stupid meaningless iPad to ship.
- dfxm12 5y ago
  people are married to work Yeah, a few of the other comments assume that the office is the only place you can find companionship. That's an issue. Just like it's smart to set up boundaries between your WFH area and your rest and relaxation area, you need a set of friends outside of your coworkers as well.
mp3k 5y ago
The other 69% of adults learned how to play early in their life.
- omgwtfbbq 5y ago
  I suppose they also learned arithmetic.
mandmandam 5y ago
I had a hunch going in that the authors would fail to break down how much more lonely the poor have been compared to the wealthy. Sadly, I was correct. They really didn't mention wealth or inequality once. Class pervades every aspect of America's problems so deeply that it's almost invisible, but that is no excuse to ignore it. Especially when we're talking about Harvard research, and especially when we're talking about a pandemic that has dramatically exacerbated wealth inequality while extremely disproportionately affecting the poor and minorities.
- anotherman554 5y ago
  Poor people are often forced to have roommates, live with their parents, or otherwise maintain relationships for economic reasons. I wouldn't expect poor people to necessarily be more lonely.
  - mandmandam 5y ago
    Ah yes, nothing like being forced to live with strangers and parents to solve loneliness. Seriously? If you care to look, there is actually a lot of research pointing that the pandemic affected the poor's ability to voluntarily socialize compared to the wealthy. If you think about it, it's incredibly obvious. And yet these authors didn't mention the idea once. That's unconscionable, if unsurprising.
    - anotherman554 5y ago
      Roommates are not necessarily strangers. If you are arguing living with parents doesn't decrease loneliness over living alone... I'm going to argue that's a non intuitive argument. That doesn't mean you are wrong necessarily but it does mean I'm probably going to question it. As far as I can tell this hasn't really been studied, at least this paper from 2019 on loneliness says "There is virtually no literature that looks at socioeconomic status as the independent variable." https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=csoc_theses https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl... It does appear to be an issue with older adults I suppose: https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20210324/socioeconomic-status-and-other-factors-predict-older-adults-loneliness-during-pandemic https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20210324/socioeconomi...
kiwih 5y ago
The loneliness crisis is what I have been wondering about lately amongst the greater push (especially within tech circles) to 100% work-from-home arrangements. Personally, although I enjoy WFH once or twice a week, I know that for me I must go in the other three days or else I do start feeling chronically lonely - even though I live with my wife and another flatmate. One thing that I worry about is that one side effect of being lonely, as noted in this report, can be depression: and this depression can lead you to isolate yourself further, only increasing the loneliness. That said, I have another friend working for a web developer who only began full WFH during the pandemic, and now says they'll never go back. They've told me that they don't feel lonely at all. Different strokes for different folks.
- api 5y ago
  The loneliness crisis long predates the acceleration of telework adoption during COVID, and the job has never been peoples' primary place for socializing.
  - azemetre 5y ago
    How can a place where you spend over a 1/3 of your life NOT be a place for socializing? A large amount of Americans date coworkers and office relationships are absolutely the norm: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/one-in-three-americans-has-dated-a-co-worker.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/one-in-three-americans-has-d...
    - vorpalhex 5y ago
      Not the parent but I'll do my best to make a good counter argument. The job should not be your place of socializing. People have opinions, make jokes, have bad days, get upset at each other, misbehave and so on. These things are fine, they are human. However, these things aren't appropriate for work. My coworkers don't get to choose me, they are stuck with me. I try very hard to be mild, polite and gentle at work. That is very much not who I am as a person. My friends know this and are fine with it, but they also get to choose to be my friend (or not). I literally feel like I can't have a real friendship or genuine social interaction at work. I might exchange pleasantries and try to make polite small talk, but it's not worth the risk of making someone else feel alienated or offended.
mp3k 5y ago
Just don't be poor and have sex.
- dahak27 5y ago
  Is there a correlation between wealth and loneliness? I could definitely imagine it being effect for the poorest in society but I wouldn't be surprised if, once you've reached a threshold of being able to keep your head above water, money and loneliness had very little relationship if at all
  - lvass 5y ago
    There is. Middle class has it worst IIRC.
  - mp3k 5y ago
    Yes Its about time. If you dont have time for your relationships they fade away. So if you must work, thats lots of time not invested in your contacts.
  - User23 5y ago
    Also being sufficiently poor. If you and everyone you know live off government assistance then that leaves plenty of time for social activities.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
anoplus 5y ago
The long 2020 lock-downs taught me the importance of having a regular amount of social interactions, even at workplace. I have fairly limited social life. I actually reached a state where I felt my brain doesn't fire, like a car barely starting. Now I value any social life much more. I see it as nutrition.
- mp3k 5y ago
  Wonderful point of view. Thanks
schnevets 5y ago
Transitioning from a college internship to my first job, I had an excellent boss/mentor who explained the importance of my first salary. Studies proved a clear correlation between first salary and overall earning potential; obviously, workers will gain experience, change roles, and may make dramatic changes over their working life, but that first step in the professional world made a clear impression. Based on these stats, I wonder if loneliness and social connection has a similar "first step" between 18-25. This is the time people establish habits that they maintain for their entire lives. Does an early accumulation of "social currency" (for lack of a better term) mitigate loneliness-linked misfortune?
- helpfulmandrill 5y ago
  TIL that my career was doomed from the beginning! :)
phone8675309 5y ago
> I have a tech company and most staff want to come to the office 1 day a week. Getting them to come is very tough. I’ve never felt more lonely in my life than working in an office full of people, and I know that’s a sentiment shared by most of my friends. I don’t think working in an office is the major factor in this.
- alexpetralia 5y ago
  Absolutely. I've often felt like an outsider in places full of people, and an insider with just a single friend. I think it's about tribal affinity.
- bettysdiagnose 5y ago
  Indeed living in Germany taught me that sometimes it's better to be alone than to be around people who make you feel alone. It's not sufficient to simply be around people, it can absolutely be actively counter-productive. Coming up against several stereotypically cold Germans who seemed barely able to even acknowledge my at least positive and non-zero value as a human being took a while to get used to...
menomatter 5y ago
How do they define loneliness? A lot of people are alone but content. Also the older I get the harder it becomes to maintain friendships. People move on socially, financially and geographically.
- scandox 5y ago
  "Solitary" is what you're referring to. Loneliness is by definition a sad condition: "sadness because one has no friends or company."
  - panaffa 5y ago
    Good distinction. I spend time with enough people. Loneliness as I feel it is despair at not being deeply understood and unconditionally loved. Which by the way is practically impossible and an inherent flaw of the human design.
0des 5y ago
We are victims of our own comfort. It's easier to stay home in our filter bubbles unchallenged. People don't know how to socialize these days, it's easier to flick idly through facebook. Awkward conversations with strangers don't happen anymore, because the second a familiar conversation with the bartender ends, everyone reaches into their pockets and retreats back into their digital security blankets. Try having a conversation with someone, and count how many seconds it takes for them to pull out their phone, and instead of correcting them on it, just talk babble and watch as they scroll. There is no intent in the scroll, it is just idle time and a slow drip of stimulus to the frontal lobes. It also doesn't help that every news broadcast and TV show is somehow furthering agendas that divide us, or polarize topics into idealogical tribal warfare.
- alexpetralia 5y ago
  As I like to say, we have decoupled intent from engagement.
- strikelaserclaw 5y ago
  absolutely, most humans are hardwired to seek path of least resistance, since our environment changed rapidly, the path of least resistance for many is indulging in fast foods and becoming obese, indulging in the fast food of social interaction through social media and becoming disconnected, unhappy etc... Technology and order seems to at once statistically lower human suffering and seems to increase spiritual suffering.
  - 0des 5y ago
    Thanks for the reply, you hit the nail right on the head. Your comment also inspired an interesting thought, that "diet" is not just what we eat, it's what we consume in general, which includes content. I had not thought of that before.
- vorpalhex 5y ago
  As a youth, I remember being strongly instilled that neither politics nor religion were appropriate topics for "polite conversation". Instead you generally talked hobbies, plans, family, etc. Conversations are a bit of a puzzle. You are trying to identify the overlap of two parties interests. Now I see a lot of people who start right out of the gate with politics and immediately become hostile when you disagree on some small element. I don't even mind politics or political debate, but political opinions aren't a substitute for personality.
disambiguation 5y ago
> The report is based on an online survey of approximately 950 Americans in October 2020. Because of certain data limitations, the data should be considered preliminary. More information is available in the report’s methodology section. - what's the baseline? How many people feel lonely on a good day? How has it changed since then? - "online survey" is there a selection bias skewed towards those that are more inclined to identify as lonely? - how does this correlate to how many young adults have a SO / are married?
peruvian 5y ago
The loneliness crisis is tough because it can make someone feel like there's something wrong with just them. Walking the streets on a weekend night, all you see is groups of friends at sold out restaurants, people on dates, events, etc.
api 5y ago
One of the things I blame is the decline of youth culture. When I was in high school and college (late 90s - early 2000s) we had all these youth "scenes" like goths, ravers, gen-X style hippies, garage band scenes, hip hop, underground punk, and so on. The standard formula was music plus style plus some kind of group bonding activity like dancing, playing music, going outside, etc. Drugs were pretty often involved too, but not always and even in drug-heavy scenes like raves there was a sizable "straight edge" faction. This was basically how all the young people who were not "jocks" or into other official activities (of which there is a limited selection) would meet one another and socialize. Maybe I just don't know, but this stuff really seems dead. I've spent some time digging out of curiosity and I've never found a hint of anything similar today. It seems like it all moved online into social media and now instead of dancing all night in warehouses or going camping to hear a band people just stare at phones and have their brains sucked out by "engagement" (addiction) maximizing algorithms. So social media seems like one thing that killed it, but I also think police crackdowns motivated by standard issue drug war freakouts were a factor too. (Irony: the replacement, algorithmically curated social media, is much more addictive than a lot of the drugs I remember people doing back then.) So now there's the people who are into the mainstream standard stuff and... what? Social media? 4chan? I shudder to think of who I would be without rave culture in late high school and college. I'd probably be dead of suicide or one of these hate-ridden incels or pajama Nazi CHUD types. I'd put my money on suicide. Edit: my philosophy with my kids is that screen time is okay as long as their lives are full of a lot of other things. I don't think screens are the problem per se. I was also into hacker stuff when I was a kid and spent a lot of time in front of screens. The problem is the absence of enriching social activities, not the presence of a screen. I do selectively ban certain things though, like YouTube, that are particularly toxic.
- peruvian 5y ago
  > Maybe I just don't know, but this stuff really seems dead. I've spent some time digging out of curiosity and I've never found a hint of anything similar today. It seems like it all moved online into social media and now instead of dancing all night in warehouses or going camping to hear a band people just stare at phones and have their brains sucked out by "engagement" (addiction) maximizing algorithms. People still go to concerts, raves, clubs, etc. Over the summer NYC streets were packed with young people going out as restrictions were lifting, so this isn't it. Unless there's a select group of people who truly are addicted to technology and some who aren't (and the former is a silent majority), it's not accurate to say all young people are 24/7 on their phones and never go outside to talk to people.
panaffa 5y ago
I'm a young GenZ adult. Just woke up and got depressed seeing this headline because it reinforces what I've experienced & felt. Loneliness is inherent to the human body and soul (unless perhaps we get Neuralink or AI friends someday). I am deeply sad over all the social fantasies I never had and probably never will now that I'm a working adult.
- panaffa 5y ago
  Saw that my above comment in which I opened up about my loneliness got down voted. This is why I withdraw from society and experience loneliness. Loneliness is the fundamental nature of my existence; it is a deep spiritual feeling that is both tragic yet freeing. Read about Buddhism they understand how to redirect loneliness in a positive direction.
- mellavora 5y ago
  Hey, you have my sympathy and understanding. And I've certainly been through some dark times mentally, and those often had strong elements of loneliness -- the kind that people say they 'battled my way through' as if fighting your self gets you anywhere and also assuming that it is somehow wrong or unacceptable to be in a dark place, i.e. it must be battled, or that the battling is what gets you to a different mental place... So I get that from where you sit, you see that > Loneliness is inherent to the human body and soul But I've come to see that if that is true, it is only true in the way that there are shadows on a sunny day. The shadows let you know that the light is shining. The inherent nature of all life is love. It can be damn hard to find sometimes, and ego and modern western culture seem bent on destroying it, but it is there.
  - BeaverFirewall6 5y ago
    Certainly. I do have friends and family who show me love, and I try to do the same. We're all inconsistent and imperfect in showing this love, and that is okay, but I think part of the problem is that our current way of life almost sociopathically doesn't value exploring and expressing love between ourselves, especially between strangers. Not sure whether there should be any cause for optimism that this societal structure will change soon.
vertak 5y ago
It says in the abstract that this data is preliminary, and the size of the sample was 950 American adults. I don’t think we can take much away from this study, except that it deserves further investigation.
papito 5y ago
What's striking to me is that it also deepened the supply of assholes. One would think that after one year under effective house arrest people would be happy to see others and be nicer to each other, but the opposite is true.
- goldenchrome 5y ago
  You think people would be nicer to others if they were prevented from socializing, a basic human function, and taught to fear their fellow man—for two whole years?
  - papito 5y ago
    I don't translate the possibility of someone being infected into my personal attitude toward them. I go out of my way to be nice to service industry people, and tip them extra-well too.
    - goldenchrome 5y ago
      It's nice that you don't seem to be affected by the propaganda, but most others are. This makes society difficult to live in for everyone.
- mlac 5y ago
  I think people expect other people to be on edge, and some people are on edge, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is the first time I’ve been out in more than a year, and you’re going to be a jerk? NO! I get to be the jerk!
mymythisisthis 5y ago
Volunteer. Join a group. Hang out at a hackerspace. Enrol in adult ed.
- thedougd 5y ago
  Adding to your list, social sport leagues. They're relaxed and welcoming of the less athletic and include 'easier' sports like dodgeball and kickball.
  - vel0city 5y ago
    Social sports leagues are also good to help encourage a decent bit of activity as well. For those who have a hard time being motivated to go to the gym and exercise regularly it can be incredibly beneficial to have a group to play some kind of sport with as a habit. Personally I have a hard time being motivated to go to the gym but having a group to encourage you to come out and play a game its a lot easier to be motivated. You don't have to be good to have a good time.
dfxm12 5y ago
Looking at the key recommendations, there appears to be a policy aspect playing into this as well. If you feel lonely, consider this at the polls - Who is advocating for social infrastructure and having a commitment to more than ourselves, including those who are vulnerable? On the flip side, be wary of those pushing personal liberty above all else and those who are trying to damage public health campaigns and institutions like health care and education.
- mountainboy 5y ago
  oh yeah, that personal liberty is so dangerous. gotta be wary about that.
- dave78 5y ago
  What about the policy aspect of telling people to isolate at home, avoid friends and family and other social gatherings, etc. for nearly 2 years now? I'm not a fan of making everything a political issue, but since you went there - I see one group of politicians actively trying to cut us off from each other (well-intentioned or not) with venue closures, capacity limits, travel restrictions, event cancellation, recommendations to avoid gatherings, etc. and the other side trending more towards encouraging people to get back out there in the world and start interacting again.
  - dfxm12 5y ago
    State lock downs in the US generally lasted on the order of months (some amount of time between March-May of 2020), not years. If you're under the impression that you're still under a stay at home order and you can't see your family, or if you think your local music venue isn't putting on concerts, I would urge you to verify if that's truly the case. I mean, you can watch a football game on Sunday and see this. Also, treating a reaction to a global pandemic like it's an evergreen policy plank is disingenuous.
    - swayvil 5y ago
      Everybody you see now is a potential infectious disease vector. And when everybody is wearing a mask, faceless, it sorta takes the human out of human-interaction. And those guys not wearing masks, they're all filthy trumper qanon goblins. So ramp up the fear for that. An obedient citizen rolls his eyes in terror.
cglan 5y ago
My general opinion as a young adult is that both the design of our cities and suburbs (making general hanging out a huge chore) and the past two years which have forced many people to be anti social have been devastating. The most social times for me are always when my friends are easily accessible through walking. These days getting people to come over is so difficult and the lack of good public transit options make a 3 mile distance a ridiculous endeavor. Combine that with the stress of the past two years and public policy that continues to fail on a global level over this (when will it end) even my more extraverted friends have become anti social. It's hard to get out of that rut when you're in it. I've made do with the understanding that I'll have to push myself to hang out with people to the point of burning out in order to forge strong friendships but it's not ideal.
- panaffa 5y ago
  Yup!! I've been lonely for a long time and for a year or two become obsessed with urban design as one of the many factors that can isolate us and make us feel inhuman. Hope it improves for the sake of future generations
- singhrac 5y ago
  Sometimes I'm surprised by how shockingly unwalkable certain areas of Manhattan are. Why are the residential areas of Hudson Yards so terribly unfriendly to people who want to "hang out"? Because all of the third places [0] are purely commercial, rather than a mix of commercial and social. European cities do this much much better. At least in New York there are plenty of parks (including a mix of commercialized like Domino Park and the High Line and more raw, like parts of Central Park and west side near the river). I can't imagine being in a city with poor public design, like SF. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
- dfxm12 5y ago
  ...This included 61% of young people aged 18-25 and 51% of mothers with young children. Going from college, surrounded by people looking to socialize, to who-knows-what, is quite a transition. I bought my house near public transit options and within walking distance of entertainment/recreation options on purpose. I know that's not always easy to find, but like you say, a significant part of this is a policy choice, not just because of public transportation, but zoning could play a part in it as well. The city I live in has since given grants to businesses building along public transit routes and it is having a positive effect on people being out and about.
dcoo 5y ago
I often come back to this quote by Vivek Murthy, former and current Surgeon General of the United States: "During my years caring for patients, the most common pathology I saw was not heart disease or diabetes; it was loneliness."[0] Always strikes me that the issue was so noticeable even four years ago. [0]: https://www.vivekmurthy.com/post/2017/10/10/work-and-the-loneliness-epidemic-harvard-business-review https://www.vivekmurthy.com/post/2017/10/10/work-and-the-lon...
scandox 5y ago
I think choice is a big part of the problem. We have too much choice about the people that we have in our lives and the basis of our interactions with those people. We're much more reactive than we like to admit - therefore having people in our lives who cause us discontent or even trouble can actually be a very good thing (within reasonable limits). However, once we have the choice (freedom of movement, a world of connected people just like ourselves, no dependence on "local" community) we naturally choose to exclude those people. We're engaging with or waiting on an ideal and painless social group. It's somewhat analogous to being able to always choose what to listen to or what to watch. You never get any surprises. You are rarely challenged. The stimuli are weak.
MockObject 5y ago
Humans were designed to live in extended families and tribes, our entire lives with the same, close population. Hermitage is a rare, unnatural lifestyle, historically reserved for the few dedicated to spiritual quests, not the masses.
mountainboy 5y ago
The pandemic public policy reaction has deepened an epidemic of loneliness. ftfy.
throway20211207 5y ago
Severe chronic pain is how I'd describe the loneliness I've experienced during the pandemic. Im alone 80-90% of any given day and it's by far the most painful experience I've ever had, even with strategies to actively manage it (I work at coffee shops, attend church, and am very active in a sporting community) The social backdrop of life is family and community, that's what you come home too. I divorced just before the lockdowns started and have no family in my city. I don't believe in extrovert/introverts and spent several years developing my social skills so I do meet people quite easily and have a good group of friends. But even the best friend groups as a working adult can't replace community band family life. I have two points of reflection: 1. Every decision we make corporately as a society seems to weaken or impede family and community life. From how we build our cities to how we respond to pandemics. I have no solution other than try and buck the trend. 2. I offer my sympathies to anyone else feeling lonely. I hope we can persevere and eventually find meaningful social lives filled with loved ones.
- penjelly 5y ago
  > 1. Every decision we make corporately as a society seems to weaken or impede family and community life. From how we build our cities to how we respond to pandemics. I have no solution other than try and buck the trend. agreed. it seems community & family life has been trending downwards for a long time and lately its in a steep dive. You could try VR chatting (seems like you covered the normal bases already), i dont think its dystopian if used sparingly. I know there are tons of lonely souls who use that as an outlet for expressing themselves & ideas, or feeling closer to others while watching movies/gaming.
deft 5y ago
Society sucks. Everything we do ends up only making conditions worse, perhaps its time for a radical new way of living.
boh 5y ago
Loneliness isn't a problem. It's a necessary unpleasant state that promotes social activity akin to sleep pressure that forces you to sleep. The problem is that people are addicted to social simulacra (via social media) rather than actual social activity and so only accomplish temporary relief from the feeling of loneliness while retaining the state of loneliness (like binge drinking coffee instead of actually sleeping). Regardless of the hype, social media is a poor substitute to physical human interaction and is more anti-social than it seems. I'm sorry, but Internet friends you've never met aren't your friends. They won't support you in the ways that really matter, they won't know you as you are rather than how you portray yourself. Internet communities have the capacity to broker relationships but those relationships have to flourish outside of those communities to endure. Loneliness is good. It forces you to do the unpleasant, inconvenient and potentially risky act of actually getting to know someone and include them in your life. People need to allow themselves to feel it so they can act on it and truly relieve it instead of wallowing in digital emotion machines that simulate human interactions.
- dogleash 5y ago
  >Loneliness isn't a problem. This is a weird bone to pick. It's similar to saying "obesity isn't a problem, overeating is." Like, yeah, sure, you can frame it that way if you want. But what utility have you added? So that you can build up to the conclusion that lonely people ought to go socialize properly? That's pretty tautological advice there mate.
  - rkk3 5y ago
    I think they just want to rant about the evils of social media.
  - airmailspecial 5y ago
    >This is a weird bone to pick. It's similar to saying "obesity isn't a problem, overeating is." I read GP's comment more along the lines of "loneliness is akin to a hunger that drives the lonely person towards seeking deeper personal connection with others". Similarly to how some people argue that "boredom is a gift" which leads to creativity[0]. Instead of placating that hunger with poor substitutes, be it TV, netflix, social media, drugs etc, that drive can serve as motivation to seek out connection, the lack of which is ultimately the root cause of the loneliness. [0]https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200522-how-boredom-can-spark-creativity https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200522-how-boredom-can...
chasd00 5y ago
you only get what you give. No matter how perfectly designed your city is or your status as homeowner/renter you're going to have to actually walk up to someone and say "hello". I feel like a lot of people want companionship pushed to them in the same way an app pushes data.
swayvil 5y ago
Maybe that's the point. We are being fed propaganda that is clearly designed to divide us. And the lonely individual is the ultimate easily-conquered unit.
jokoon 5y ago
I'm okay with people having their own bedroom, but not their own kitchen and living room. I will never understand why it's okay to live in places where is possible to have no human contact for weeks. Individualism sucks, and that was brought to us by the war on communism.
paul7986 5y ago
Anyone else find dating to be different in the pandemic ... like it's harder to connect with people then before? Dating was never real easy for me, but wow since Dec 2020 to now ive went on 20 to 30 dates to new friend meetups (bumble bff) and really nothing materialized. I've even started talking about it with recent dates (since Sept) and meetups cause they bring it up themselves. I thought it was my age which is a factor for sure but those expressing the same sentiment are 15 to 20 years younger then myself. I'm in my mid 40s. Even though we express the same struggle no connection is made (IDK).
- floydian10 5y ago
  I do. I mean, you do need to be in a good place to be able to connect, mentally and emotionally speaking. I can barely keep existing friendships these days.
  - paul7986 5y ago
    I've went offline in the past five months to connect with people .. church/play in their band and meetup.com. Church has been the most fruitful in terms of making a new friend and their friends. Online dating is a joke with a good amount of friends (casual ones ive known through work & school) all saying it's hard to connect with people on a deeper level then just a date and a hookup. There's always something better to swipe right on and the one your interested in is interested in another whose not that interested in them but another and so on. My view of it ...one view at least.

153 points by glennericksen 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

I came here to post my thoughts, but I agree with everything mentioned. Here in baltimore it's about fear of being a victim of violence.

elbasti 5y ago

One of thing that is obvious to me is the bizarre cultural norm that, in the US, people are expected to move away from home at the age of 18 and then relocate more-or-less permanently far away from family and childhood friends. To my American friends this seems totally normal, and suggesting something different is ridiculed. An obvious consequence of this is that American adults have 3 or 4 "social fabric ruptures" as they grow up: 1. When they turn 18 they move far from home to go to college temporarily. They develop a new group of friends, at the expense of being far from family & home. 2. When they turn 22 they move to Big City for a job. Probably _not_ where their parents live, and almost certainly not where their college friends live. 3. There's another (optional) move to Different Big City in late 20s 4. Finally they marry and in their early 30s they move to Suburb (leaving their Big City friends behind). The result of this is an absolutely frayed social fabric. Not only do people leave their friends behind just as they start to develop deep friendships, they do so in an environment where building new friendships is harder (because they keep getting older). If one wanted to design a system that maximized unhappiness, it would be pretty close to this! Of course Americans are lonely! They keep leaving their family and friends behind! There's two reasons for this, imho. Firstly, the cultural norm of "the real college experience" requiring dorms, facilities, football stadiums, etc. Being a commuter student in the USA is weird at best at most colleges, and certainly the good ones. Secondly (and perhaps most importantly), is a set of policies (transit, zoning) that make the places where old people/families want to live different from the places young people want to live. This results in the 30-something move to the suburbs, but it also results in the 18-something move to the city or ~disneyland~ college campus: of course you don't want to be a commuter student if your parents live in the suburbs: there's nothing to do! You can't drink, you can't party, you can't do anything. This social norm has a whole other series of consequences besides just loneliness. Financially: - It's inefficient at best and ruinous at worst: Not only is sleep-away college expensive, it also creates a rat race between schools for bigger/better facilities resulting in runaway costs. - Young adults entering the workforce don't live at home, which means they don't create a savings cushion to help them buy their first home in their late 20s (compounded with college debt due to the point above) - Families with kids often end up far from grandparents/family/trusted friends, further increasing the financial "overhead" of just living.

mountainboy 5y ago
great insights about social fabric ruptures! so true.
eldaisfish 5y ago
the ability to live, work and raise a family in a very limited geographic region is a privilege. For thousands of years, those who did not have that privilege moved. They moved to different regions, different countries and even different continents. That is the human story. I expect you are from western europe as that is one of the few places on the planet where a hundred kilometres really is a long way. Even in Europe, people from the East move. They move west. The "american cultural norm" isn't something unique to north america as you've framed it although i do agree that it is quite common there.
- cowuser666 5y ago
  I think it's a big step to say that people have done this throughout history to say it's been the norm. Fighting wars is normal historically as well, but most people in history didn't fight in a war. I think it's also worth considering the extent to which these movements you're describing would have been undertaken by groups rather than individuals.

mp3k 5y ago

Its the system. Gosh I hate the antichrist.

dukeofdoom 5y ago

get a puppy

jbrun 5y ago

It's a bit paradoxical. I have a tech company and most staff want to come to the office 1 day a week. Getting them to come is very tough. Many of my staff and friends don't want to have kids, make no effort to find a partner and find all sorts of excuses. Netflix, the internet and these things are part of the problem, but I have no clue what the solution is. There is only one way to not be lonely - be with people who care about you. That requires an investment of time and of your emotions - something many people seem unable or unwilling to do. You have to get out into the world and invest in others.

JKCalhoun 5y ago
All I can think: turn off the internet. Internet in the morning. Have your coffee, catch up on the news, your social. Then put the internet down for the rest of the day. Go out, ride a bike with a friend, go hike with a friend, go to a coffee shop, library....
- mandmandam 5y ago
  As apt as those suggestions may be for this crowd, they are neither practical or even polite for a huge proportion of the country.
  - therealdrag0 5y ago
    Can you elaborate?
    - mandmandam 5y ago
      There are many neighborhoods in America that don't have coffee shops, at all. And many that you wouldn't want to be caught dead cycling around in on a pushbike. On a broader scale, the median wage in America is only ~30k, while the cost of rent and basics far outpaces any increase in wages. So the idea that people would use the time off from their excessive working lives to go hiking is actually a bit insulting. The comment I responded to reeks of ignorance of the reality of the daily lives of so, so many Americans; who if they have any free time and disposable income it sure as fuck isn't going to be spent hiking up mountains and buying decent hiking gear. ... I visited Pittsburgh last winter, and was struck at the differences between neighborhoods. In Squirrel Hill the coffee shops were open and trading, the sidewalk was free of snow, people got their groceries delivered from Giant Eagle. In Braddock, the sidewalks were cracked to pieces, layered with demonically slippery ice that hadn't seen a grain of salt in years. There wasn't any cafe, or bagel shops, or proper grocery store; there was a dollar store and a bodega with people outside trying to sell me clothes, or threaten me because I only gave them a dollar. So I dare you, go to your city's equivalent of Braddock and ask them how much they like hiking. Ask them how much free time they have, ask them why they don't socialize in coffee shops. [I'm not shitting on Braddock - I liked it, there were nice people there, and many neighborhoods are far worse.] The reality is that poverty amplifies loneliness while reducing the ability to socialize, but so many Americans are happy in their little bubbles while huge portions of the country crumble around them. The world knows how unequal American society is, from welfare to justice to infrastructure; but wealthy Americans seem not to be interested (or to even think of themselves as wealthy). The blissful ignorance of most American's daily struggle is only blissful for the ignorant. This isn't flamebait or nationalistic prejudice; just my own observations about a country that seems to be racing blindly to an even darker place.

newaccount2021 5y ago

people are married to work, get their gratification from porn and buying things downside: no one to talk to

JKCalhoun 5y ago
> buying things I definitely see this.
- turbinerneiter 5y ago
  I currently struggle to buy anything that would have a positive effect on my happiness. I got a motorcycle two years ago, and while I do pretty few miles, it provided quite some happiness (going on Saturday rides with a friend, general added feeling of "freedom" because of having a way to escape the city and also do short trips I usually would fret about which public transport to take or if it makes sense to use carsharing). Another thing that comes to mind is my Vacuum cleaner - I spent money on a cordless Dyson and I can clean my small flat in 15 minutes now (robot doesn't make sense due to the size). I have the budget to buy some live improving stuff, but I don't see anything.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - frontman1988 5y ago
    Buy experiences if you can. You won't regret a good vacation or time spent on a hobby you enjoy.
- panaffa 5y ago
  I buy things to fill my own emptiness. Currently the most exciting thing in my life is waiting for my stupid meaningless iPad to ship.
dfxm12 5y ago
people are married to work Yeah, a few of the other comments assume that the office is the only place you can find companionship. That's an issue. Just like it's smart to set up boundaries between your WFH area and your rest and relaxation area, you need a set of friends outside of your coworkers as well.

mp3k 5y ago

The other 69% of adults learned how to play early in their life.

omgwtfbbq 5y ago
I suppose they also learned arithmetic.

mandmandam 5y ago

I had a hunch going in that the authors would fail to break down how much more lonely the poor have been compared to the wealthy. Sadly, I was correct. They really didn't mention wealth or inequality once. Class pervades every aspect of America's problems so deeply that it's almost invisible, but that is no excuse to ignore it. Especially when we're talking about Harvard research, and especially when we're talking about a pandemic that has dramatically exacerbated wealth inequality while extremely disproportionately affecting the poor and minorities.

anotherman554 5y ago
Poor people are often forced to have roommates, live with their parents, or otherwise maintain relationships for economic reasons. I wouldn't expect poor people to necessarily be more lonely.
- mandmandam 5y ago
  Ah yes, nothing like being forced to live with strangers and parents to solve loneliness. Seriously? If you care to look, there is actually a lot of research pointing that the pandemic affected the poor's ability to voluntarily socialize compared to the wealthy. If you think about it, it's incredibly obvious. And yet these authors didn't mention the idea once. That's unconscionable, if unsurprising.
  - anotherman554 5y ago
    Roommates are not necessarily strangers. If you are arguing living with parents doesn't decrease loneliness over living alone... I'm going to argue that's a non intuitive argument. That doesn't mean you are wrong necessarily but it does mean I'm probably going to question it. As far as I can tell this hasn't really been studied, at least this paper from 2019 on loneliness says "There is virtually no literature that looks at socioeconomic status as the independent variable." https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1007&context=csoc_theses https://soundideas.pugetsound.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?articl... It does appear to be an issue with older adults I suppose: https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20210324/socioeconomic-status-and-other-factors-predict-older-adults-loneliness-during-pandemic https://www.healio.com/news/psychiatry/20210324/socioeconomi...

kiwih 5y ago

The loneliness crisis is what I have been wondering about lately amongst the greater push (especially within tech circles) to 100% work-from-home arrangements. Personally, although I enjoy WFH once or twice a week, I know that for me I must go in the other three days or else I do start feeling chronically lonely - even though I live with my wife and another flatmate. One thing that I worry about is that one side effect of being lonely, as noted in this report, can be depression: and this depression can lead you to isolate yourself further, only increasing the loneliness. That said, I have another friend working for a web developer who only began full WFH during the pandemic, and now says they'll never go back. They've told me that they don't feel lonely at all. Different strokes for different folks.

api 5y ago
The loneliness crisis long predates the acceleration of telework adoption during COVID, and the job has never been peoples' primary place for socializing.
- azemetre 5y ago
  How can a place where you spend over a 1/3 of your life NOT be a place for socializing? A large amount of Americans date coworkers and office relationships are absolutely the norm: https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/one-in-three-americans-has-dated-a-co-worker.html https://www.cnbc.com/2019/02/14/one-in-three-americans-has-d...
  - vorpalhex 5y ago
    Not the parent but I'll do my best to make a good counter argument. The job should not be your place of socializing. People have opinions, make jokes, have bad days, get upset at each other, misbehave and so on. These things are fine, they are human. However, these things aren't appropriate for work. My coworkers don't get to choose me, they are stuck with me. I try very hard to be mild, polite and gentle at work. That is very much not who I am as a person. My friends know this and are fine with it, but they also get to choose to be my friend (or not). I literally feel like I can't have a real friendship or genuine social interaction at work. I might exchange pleasantries and try to make polite small talk, but it's not worth the risk of making someone else feel alienated or offended.

mp3k 5y ago

Just don't be poor and have sex.

dahak27 5y ago
Is there a correlation between wealth and loneliness? I could definitely imagine it being effect for the poorest in society but I wouldn't be surprised if, once you've reached a threshold of being able to keep your head above water, money and loneliness had very little relationship if at all
- lvass 5y ago
  There is. Middle class has it worst IIRC.
- mp3k 5y ago
  Yes Its about time. If you dont have time for your relationships they fade away. So if you must work, thats lots of time not invested in your contacts.
- User23 5y ago
  Also being sufficiently poor. If you and everyone you know live off government assistance then that leaves plenty of time for social activities.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

anoplus 5y ago

The long 2020 lock-downs taught me the importance of having a regular amount of social interactions, even at workplace. I have fairly limited social life. I actually reached a state where I felt my brain doesn't fire, like a car barely starting. Now I value any social life much more. I see it as nutrition.

mp3k 5y ago
Wonderful point of view. Thanks

schnevets 5y ago

Transitioning from a college internship to my first job, I had an excellent boss/mentor who explained the importance of my first salary. Studies proved a clear correlation between first salary and overall earning potential; obviously, workers will gain experience, change roles, and may make dramatic changes over their working life, but that first step in the professional world made a clear impression. Based on these stats, I wonder if loneliness and social connection has a similar "first step" between 18-25. This is the time people establish habits that they maintain for their entire lives. Does an early accumulation of "social currency" (for lack of a better term) mitigate loneliness-linked misfortune?

helpfulmandrill 5y ago
TIL that my career was doomed from the beginning! :)

phone8675309 5y ago

> I have a tech company and most staff want to come to the office 1 day a week. Getting them to come is very tough. I’ve never felt more lonely in my life than working in an office full of people, and I know that’s a sentiment shared by most of my friends. I don’t think working in an office is the major factor in this.

alexpetralia 5y ago
Absolutely. I've often felt like an outsider in places full of people, and an insider with just a single friend. I think it's about tribal affinity.
bettysdiagnose 5y ago
Indeed living in Germany taught me that sometimes it's better to be alone than to be around people who make you feel alone. It's not sufficient to simply be around people, it can absolutely be actively counter-productive. Coming up against several stereotypically cold Germans who seemed barely able to even acknowledge my at least positive and non-zero value as a human being took a while to get used to...

menomatter 5y ago

How do they define loneliness? A lot of people are alone but content. Also the older I get the harder it becomes to maintain friendships. People move on socially, financially and geographically.

scandox 5y ago
"Solitary" is what you're referring to. Loneliness is by definition a sad condition: "sadness because one has no friends or company."
- panaffa 5y ago
  Good distinction. I spend time with enough people. Loneliness as I feel it is despair at not being deeply understood and unconditionally loved. Which by the way is practically impossible and an inherent flaw of the human design.

0des 5y ago

We are victims of our own comfort. It's easier to stay home in our filter bubbles unchallenged. People don't know how to socialize these days, it's easier to flick idly through facebook. Awkward conversations with strangers don't happen anymore, because the second a familiar conversation with the bartender ends, everyone reaches into their pockets and retreats back into their digital security blankets. Try having a conversation with someone, and count how many seconds it takes for them to pull out their phone, and instead of correcting them on it, just talk babble and watch as they scroll. There is no intent in the scroll, it is just idle time and a slow drip of stimulus to the frontal lobes. It also doesn't help that every news broadcast and TV show is somehow furthering agendas that divide us, or polarize topics into idealogical tribal warfare.

alexpetralia 5y ago
As I like to say, we have decoupled intent from engagement.
strikelaserclaw 5y ago
absolutely, most humans are hardwired to seek path of least resistance, since our environment changed rapidly, the path of least resistance for many is indulging in fast foods and becoming obese, indulging in the fast food of social interaction through social media and becoming disconnected, unhappy etc... Technology and order seems to at once statistically lower human suffering and seems to increase spiritual suffering.
- 0des 5y ago
  Thanks for the reply, you hit the nail right on the head. Your comment also inspired an interesting thought, that "diet" is not just what we eat, it's what we consume in general, which includes content. I had not thought of that before.
vorpalhex 5y ago
As a youth, I remember being strongly instilled that neither politics nor religion were appropriate topics for "polite conversation". Instead you generally talked hobbies, plans, family, etc. Conversations are a bit of a puzzle. You are trying to identify the overlap of two parties interests. Now I see a lot of people who start right out of the gate with politics and immediately become hostile when you disagree on some small element. I don't even mind politics or political debate, but political opinions aren't a substitute for personality.

disambiguation 5y ago

> The report is based on an online survey of approximately 950 Americans in October 2020. Because of certain data limitations, the data should be considered preliminary. More information is available in the report’s methodology section. - what's the baseline? How many people feel lonely on a good day? How has it changed since then? - "online survey" is there a selection bias skewed towards those that are more inclined to identify as lonely? - how does this correlate to how many young adults have a SO / are married?

peruvian 5y ago

The loneliness crisis is tough because it can make someone feel like there's something wrong with just them. Walking the streets on a weekend night, all you see is groups of friends at sold out restaurants, people on dates, events, etc.

api 5y ago

One of the things I blame is the decline of youth culture. When I was in high school and college (late 90s - early 2000s) we had all these youth "scenes" like goths, ravers, gen-X style hippies, garage band scenes, hip hop, underground punk, and so on. The standard formula was music plus style plus some kind of group bonding activity like dancing, playing music, going outside, etc. Drugs were pretty often involved too, but not always and even in drug-heavy scenes like raves there was a sizable "straight edge" faction. This was basically how all the young people who were not "jocks" or into other official activities (of which there is a limited selection) would meet one another and socialize. Maybe I just don't know, but this stuff really seems dead. I've spent some time digging out of curiosity and I've never found a hint of anything similar today. It seems like it all moved online into social media and now instead of dancing all night in warehouses or going camping to hear a band people just stare at phones and have their brains sucked out by "engagement" (addiction) maximizing algorithms. So social media seems like one thing that killed it, but I also think police crackdowns motivated by standard issue drug war freakouts were a factor too. (Irony: the replacement, algorithmically curated social media, is much more addictive than a lot of the drugs I remember people doing back then.) So now there's the people who are into the mainstream standard stuff and... what? Social media? 4chan? I shudder to think of who I would be without rave culture in late high school and college. I'd probably be dead of suicide or one of these hate-ridden incels or pajama Nazi CHUD types. I'd put my money on suicide. Edit: my philosophy with my kids is that screen time is okay as long as their lives are full of a lot of other things. I don't think screens are the problem per se. I was also into hacker stuff when I was a kid and spent a lot of time in front of screens. The problem is the absence of enriching social activities, not the presence of a screen. I do selectively ban certain things though, like YouTube, that are particularly toxic.

peruvian 5y ago
> Maybe I just don't know, but this stuff really seems dead. I've spent some time digging out of curiosity and I've never found a hint of anything similar today. It seems like it all moved online into social media and now instead of dancing all night in warehouses or going camping to hear a band people just stare at phones and have their brains sucked out by "engagement" (addiction) maximizing algorithms. People still go to concerts, raves, clubs, etc. Over the summer NYC streets were packed with young people going out as restrictions were lifting, so this isn't it. Unless there's a select group of people who truly are addicted to technology and some who aren't (and the former is a silent majority), it's not accurate to say all young people are 24/7 on their phones and never go outside to talk to people.

panaffa 5y ago

I'm a young GenZ adult. Just woke up and got depressed seeing this headline because it reinforces what I've experienced & felt. Loneliness is inherent to the human body and soul (unless perhaps we get Neuralink or AI friends someday). I am deeply sad over all the social fantasies I never had and probably never will now that I'm a working adult.

panaffa 5y ago
Saw that my above comment in which I opened up about my loneliness got down voted. This is why I withdraw from society and experience loneliness. Loneliness is the fundamental nature of my existence; it is a deep spiritual feeling that is both tragic yet freeing. Read about Buddhism they understand how to redirect loneliness in a positive direction.
mellavora 5y ago
Hey, you have my sympathy and understanding. And I've certainly been through some dark times mentally, and those often had strong elements of loneliness -- the kind that people say they 'battled my way through' as if fighting your self gets you anywhere and also assuming that it is somehow wrong or unacceptable to be in a dark place, i.e. it must be battled, or that the battling is what gets you to a different mental place... So I get that from where you sit, you see that > Loneliness is inherent to the human body and soul But I've come to see that if that is true, it is only true in the way that there are shadows on a sunny day. The shadows let you know that the light is shining. The inherent nature of all life is love. It can be damn hard to find sometimes, and ego and modern western culture seem bent on destroying it, but it is there.
- BeaverFirewall6 5y ago
  Certainly. I do have friends and family who show me love, and I try to do the same. We're all inconsistent and imperfect in showing this love, and that is okay, but I think part of the problem is that our current way of life almost sociopathically doesn't value exploring and expressing love between ourselves, especially between strangers. Not sure whether there should be any cause for optimism that this societal structure will change soon.

vertak 5y ago

It says in the abstract that this data is preliminary, and the size of the sample was 950 American adults. I don’t think we can take much away from this study, except that it deserves further investigation.

papito 5y ago

What's striking to me is that it also deepened the supply of assholes. One would think that after one year under effective house arrest people would be happy to see others and be nicer to each other, but the opposite is true.

goldenchrome 5y ago
You think people would be nicer to others if they were prevented from socializing, a basic human function, and taught to fear their fellow man—for two whole years?
- papito 5y ago
  I don't translate the possibility of someone being infected into my personal attitude toward them. I go out of my way to be nice to service industry people, and tip them extra-well too.
  - goldenchrome 5y ago
    It's nice that you don't seem to be affected by the propaganda, but most others are. This makes society difficult to live in for everyone.
mlac 5y ago
I think people expect other people to be on edge, and some people are on edge, and it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. This is the first time I’ve been out in more than a year, and you’re going to be a jerk? NO! I get to be the jerk!

mymythisisthis 5y ago

Volunteer. Join a group. Hang out at a hackerspace. Enrol in adult ed.

thedougd 5y ago
Adding to your list, social sport leagues. They're relaxed and welcoming of the less athletic and include 'easier' sports like dodgeball and kickball.
- vel0city 5y ago
  Social sports leagues are also good to help encourage a decent bit of activity as well. For those who have a hard time being motivated to go to the gym and exercise regularly it can be incredibly beneficial to have a group to play some kind of sport with as a habit. Personally I have a hard time being motivated to go to the gym but having a group to encourage you to come out and play a game its a lot easier to be motivated. You don't have to be good to have a good time.

dfxm12 5y ago

Looking at the key recommendations, there appears to be a policy aspect playing into this as well. If you feel lonely, consider this at the polls - Who is advocating for social infrastructure and having a commitment to more than ourselves, including those who are vulnerable? On the flip side, be wary of those pushing personal liberty above all else and those who are trying to damage public health campaigns and institutions like health care and education.

mountainboy 5y ago
oh yeah, that personal liberty is so dangerous. gotta be wary about that.
dave78 5y ago
What about the policy aspect of telling people to isolate at home, avoid friends and family and other social gatherings, etc. for nearly 2 years now? I'm not a fan of making everything a political issue, but since you went there - I see one group of politicians actively trying to cut us off from each other (well-intentioned or not) with venue closures, capacity limits, travel restrictions, event cancellation, recommendations to avoid gatherings, etc. and the other side trending more towards encouraging people to get back out there in the world and start interacting again.
- dfxm12 5y ago
  State lock downs in the US generally lasted on the order of months (some amount of time between March-May of 2020), not years. If you're under the impression that you're still under a stay at home order and you can't see your family, or if you think your local music venue isn't putting on concerts, I would urge you to verify if that's truly the case. I mean, you can watch a football game on Sunday and see this. Also, treating a reaction to a global pandemic like it's an evergreen policy plank is disingenuous.
  - swayvil 5y ago
    Everybody you see now is a potential infectious disease vector. And when everybody is wearing a mask, faceless, it sorta takes the human out of human-interaction. And those guys not wearing masks, they're all filthy trumper qanon goblins. So ramp up the fear for that. An obedient citizen rolls his eyes in terror.

cglan 5y ago

My general opinion as a young adult is that both the design of our cities and suburbs (making general hanging out a huge chore) and the past two years which have forced many people to be anti social have been devastating. The most social times for me are always when my friends are easily accessible through walking. These days getting people to come over is so difficult and the lack of good public transit options make a 3 mile distance a ridiculous endeavor. Combine that with the stress of the past two years and public policy that continues to fail on a global level over this (when will it end) even my more extraverted friends have become anti social. It's hard to get out of that rut when you're in it. I've made do with the understanding that I'll have to push myself to hang out with people to the point of burning out in order to forge strong friendships but it's not ideal.

panaffa 5y ago
Yup!! I've been lonely for a long time and for a year or two become obsessed with urban design as one of the many factors that can isolate us and make us feel inhuman. Hope it improves for the sake of future generations
singhrac 5y ago
Sometimes I'm surprised by how shockingly unwalkable certain areas of Manhattan are. Why are the residential areas of Hudson Yards so terribly unfriendly to people who want to "hang out"? Because all of the third places [0] are purely commercial, rather than a mix of commercial and social. European cities do this much much better. At least in New York there are plenty of parks (including a mix of commercialized like Domino Park and the High Line and more raw, like parts of Central Park and west side near the river). I can't imagine being in a city with poor public design, like SF. [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_place
dfxm12 5y ago
...This included 61% of young people aged 18-25 and 51% of mothers with young children. Going from college, surrounded by people looking to socialize, to who-knows-what, is quite a transition. I bought my house near public transit options and within walking distance of entertainment/recreation options on purpose. I know that's not always easy to find, but like you say, a significant part of this is a policy choice, not just because of public transportation, but zoning could play a part in it as well. The city I live in has since given grants to businesses building along public transit routes and it is having a positive effect on people being out and about.

dcoo 5y ago

I often come back to this quote by Vivek Murthy, former and current Surgeon General of the United States: "During my years caring for patients, the most common pathology I saw was not heart disease or diabetes; it was loneliness."[0] Always strikes me that the issue was so noticeable even four years ago. [0]: https://www.vivekmurthy.com/post/2017/10/10/work-and-the-loneliness-epidemic-harvard-business-review https://www.vivekmurthy.com/post/2017/10/10/work-and-the-lon...

scandox 5y ago

I think choice is a big part of the problem. We have too much choice about the people that we have in our lives and the basis of our interactions with those people. We're much more reactive than we like to admit - therefore having people in our lives who cause us discontent or even trouble can actually be a very good thing (within reasonable limits). However, once we have the choice (freedom of movement, a world of connected people just like ourselves, no dependence on "local" community) we naturally choose to exclude those people. We're engaging with or waiting on an ideal and painless social group. It's somewhat analogous to being able to always choose what to listen to or what to watch. You never get any surprises. You are rarely challenged. The stimuli are weak.

MockObject 5y ago

Humans were designed to live in extended families and tribes, our entire lives with the same, close population. Hermitage is a rare, unnatural lifestyle, historically reserved for the few dedicated to spiritual quests, not the masses.

mountainboy 5y ago

The pandemic public policy reaction has deepened an epidemic of loneliness. ftfy.

throway20211207 5y ago

Severe chronic pain is how I'd describe the loneliness I've experienced during the pandemic. Im alone 80-90% of any given day and it's by far the most painful experience I've ever had, even with strategies to actively manage it (I work at coffee shops, attend church, and am very active in a sporting community) The social backdrop of life is family and community, that's what you come home too. I divorced just before the lockdowns started and have no family in my city. I don't believe in extrovert/introverts and spent several years developing my social skills so I do meet people quite easily and have a good group of friends. But even the best friend groups as a working adult can't replace community band family life. I have two points of reflection: 1. Every decision we make corporately as a society seems to weaken or impede family and community life. From how we build our cities to how we respond to pandemics. I have no solution other than try and buck the trend. 2. I offer my sympathies to anyone else feeling lonely. I hope we can persevere and eventually find meaningful social lives filled with loved ones.

penjelly 5y ago
> 1. Every decision we make corporately as a society seems to weaken or impede family and community life. From how we build our cities to how we respond to pandemics. I have no solution other than try and buck the trend. agreed. it seems community & family life has been trending downwards for a long time and lately its in a steep dive. You could try VR chatting (seems like you covered the normal bases already), i dont think its dystopian if used sparingly. I know there are tons of lonely souls who use that as an outlet for expressing themselves & ideas, or feeling closer to others while watching movies/gaming.

deft 5y ago

Society sucks. Everything we do ends up only making conditions worse, perhaps its time for a radical new way of living.

boh 5y ago

Loneliness isn't a problem. It's a necessary unpleasant state that promotes social activity akin to sleep pressure that forces you to sleep. The problem is that people are addicted to social simulacra (via social media) rather than actual social activity and so only accomplish temporary relief from the feeling of loneliness while retaining the state of loneliness (like binge drinking coffee instead of actually sleeping). Regardless of the hype, social media is a poor substitute to physical human interaction and is more anti-social than it seems. I'm sorry, but Internet friends you've never met aren't your friends. They won't support you in the ways that really matter, they won't know you as you are rather than how you portray yourself. Internet communities have the capacity to broker relationships but those relationships have to flourish outside of those communities to endure. Loneliness is good. It forces you to do the unpleasant, inconvenient and potentially risky act of actually getting to know someone and include them in your life. People need to allow themselves to feel it so they can act on it and truly relieve it instead of wallowing in digital emotion machines that simulate human interactions.

dogleash 5y ago
>Loneliness isn't a problem. This is a weird bone to pick. It's similar to saying "obesity isn't a problem, overeating is." Like, yeah, sure, you can frame it that way if you want. But what utility have you added? So that you can build up to the conclusion that lonely people ought to go socialize properly? That's pretty tautological advice there mate.
- rkk3 5y ago
  I think they just want to rant about the evils of social media.
- airmailspecial 5y ago
  >This is a weird bone to pick. It's similar to saying "obesity isn't a problem, overeating is." I read GP's comment more along the lines of "loneliness is akin to a hunger that drives the lonely person towards seeking deeper personal connection with others". Similarly to how some people argue that "boredom is a gift" which leads to creativity[0]. Instead of placating that hunger with poor substitutes, be it TV, netflix, social media, drugs etc, that drive can serve as motivation to seek out connection, the lack of which is ultimately the root cause of the loneliness. [0]https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200522-how-boredom-can-spark-creativity https://www.bbc.com/culture/article/20200522-how-boredom-can...

chasd00 5y ago

you only get what you give. No matter how perfectly designed your city is or your status as homeowner/renter you're going to have to actually walk up to someone and say "hello". I feel like a lot of people want companionship pushed to them in the same way an app pushes data.

swayvil 5y ago

Maybe that's the point. We are being fed propaganda that is clearly designed to divide us. And the lonely individual is the ultimate easily-conquered unit.

jokoon 5y ago

I'm okay with people having their own bedroom, but not their own kitchen and living room. I will never understand why it's okay to live in places where is possible to have no human contact for weeks. Individualism sucks, and that was brought to us by the war on communism.

paul7986 5y ago

Anyone else find dating to be different in the pandemic ... like it's harder to connect with people then before? Dating was never real easy for me, but wow since Dec 2020 to now ive went on 20 to 30 dates to new friend meetups (bumble bff) and really nothing materialized. I've even started talking about it with recent dates (since Sept) and meetups cause they bring it up themselves. I thought it was my age which is a factor for sure but those expressing the same sentiment are 15 to 20 years younger then myself. I'm in my mid 40s. Even though we express the same struggle no connection is made (IDK).

floydian10 5y ago
I do. I mean, you do need to be in a good place to be able to connect, mentally and emotionally speaking. I can barely keep existing friendships these days.
- paul7986 5y ago
  I've went offline in the past five months to connect with people .. church/play in their band and meetup.com. Church has been the most fruitful in terms of making a new friend and their friends. Online dating is a joke with a good amount of friends (casual ones ive known through work & school) all saying it's hard to connect with people on a deeper level then just a date and a hookup. There's always something better to swipe right on and the one your interested in is interested in another whose not that interested in them but another and so on. My view of it ...one view at least.