11 ms·

I lasted three minutes at Amazon

253 points by ruined 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
jcun4128 5y ago
Random anecdote: I remember trying to get a job at McDonalds and I had to take these tests like "would you rather kill 1 person or 5" it's like you had to choose one. I did not get that job. Similar process for other stuff like washing plates at chains.
quantified 5y ago
Might be the best outcome anyway.
ruined 5y ago
alternative view https://teddit.net/r/antiwork/comments/ra7tjf/i_lasted_three_minutes_at_amazon/ https://teddit.net/r/antiwork/comments/ra7tjf/i_lasted_three...
johnny35 5y ago
Systematizing and optimizing every detail of operations to create as large of a pool as possible of positions requiring the least possible skill, reducing the cost of turnover, training, and management complexity... seems to be externalizing a heavy toll on mental health. Regulation can tackle many cases of "socialized losses, privatized gains" but I am at a loss to understand how we can mitigate this one.
- floatingatoll 5y ago
  The one golden rule at Amazon is to externalize all costs that are paid by use of a human being’s labor and time. Regulations don’t stand a chance of moving quickly enough to keep up with Amazon’s innovation budget. The only way to counter that is worker unions, which can make specific and timely demands that Amazon treat workers more humanely. If workers unionize, Amazon has to stop externalizing the cost of labor.
  - kcplate 5y ago
    Five years ago my daughter worked for Amazon in a fulfillment center for a few weeks. From her experience I developed a theory—Amazon expects a steady stream of new hires, figuring most will leave within a month. The job is low skill enough that that a new hire can hit a baseline throughput expectation (the stated goal is of course higher) within a day or two. Aggressive management demands probably pushes that baseline up pretty much until a few days before the eventual burnout. The ones that stay long term are those people willing to overlook a shit job, aggressive output measuring, and draconian management. Those folks generally aren’t beating the union drum within the org as loud as the transient 30 day folks. Unions have trouble finding purchase because organizers are fighting that turnover and the folks motivated to unionize don’t have the patience to get there.
- beaconstudios 5y ago
  this reads like the opposite of a systematised process - this reads like a bunch of departments who don't talk to each other striving to check off tasks in the onboarding process without actually making any effort to complete the intent of the task. Which would make sense at a highly metric-driven company like Amazon.
  - zamalek 5y ago
    That's the inherent problem with quantifiable performance reviews: people optimize metrics, not results.
  - Sparkyte 5y ago
    Amazon has a tendency to go through the show and tell in the hiring process but not commit through it. It isn't his fault. I'm sure he could've stood up for himself. However this is the flaw when you're just too big to succeed.
  - lookalike74 5y ago
    It's a systematized process that's fractured and whoever you talk to in HR is either too arrogant to help or too ignorant to know how to. I worked for Amazon twice.
  - woodruffw 5y ago
    There are many metrics that large companies can internally optimize for, one of which is ass-covering. It sounds like Amazon is no different from any other company in that regard.
- nexuist 5y ago
  Other than the drug test it didn't seem like there was a single thing OP was required to do that wouldn't be solved by automation. At my current job we set up direct deposit, filled out info for background checks, completed training videos and quizzes, etc. all through online forms. Everyone OP interacted with shouldn't even be in the picture. It's a warehouse job; I struggle to see why you even need any humans in the loop above the workers at all. Clock in, move the boxes, mark tasks completed on your handheld, clock out. Frankly I have no idea why the people org as described by OP exists the way it does for a company known for its cloud services. None of these morons OP dealt with needed to be employed.
  - politician 5y ago
    The safety people need to be there.
  - solnyshok 5y ago
    imagine they read your comment and implement that...
    - nexuist 5y ago
      Everyone would've had a day off today ;)
- rowanajmarshall 5y ago
  There was this chap about 150 years ago, wrote about the alienation from labour caused by breaking down jobs into tiny, mindless motions that slowly eat away at your sense of self. This stuff isn't new.
dekhn 5y ago
I had to read carefully into the article before I understood this is probably a fulfillment center job, not an AWS SWE.
- preetamjinka 5y ago
  Same. Do SWE/SDE roles also involve drug tests and orientations?
  - ushakov 5y ago
    in Germany, they could do a background check if you used cannabis and got caught, you'll have a police record for up to 5 years when applying expect it not to be in your favour
    - dekhn 5y ago
      Fair enough, I was curious about that point too (but maybe they were working for govcloud, which probably has more onerous background checking). Every single job I've had in California for the past 30 years (from academic software engineer to computer scientist to industry software engineer) has clearly stated that they do not drug test before I signed any paper. In fact, my manager at Lawrence Berkeley Lab (RIP) was specifically sent there after he refused to take a drug test at a more serious DOE lab, "so he could fit in with all the other hippies and druggies". I can't speak to any of the other roles, although in my time in the food service industry there wasn't any testing either.
    - stormking 5y ago
      No, they can't do that, anymore, except for very specific jobs, e.g. working with children.
  - dekhn 5y ago
    Sure (to orientations). Here's how a pre-COVID SWE orientation at Google (for folks in professional jobs in Mountain View, not data center contractors in The Dalles): there is a dedicated lobby and theater with multiple people staffing the area welcoming you in. You're handed a laptop, configure your credentials, log in, access benefits, etc, then sit down for a couple motivating videos/speeches and some details on your benefits. At this point you're ready to go to your team's work area (many details could be different outside the mothership). The second time around it was even more polished than the first time, but contained much less useful information and more cheerleading, so I left once I had my axe and saw that it was sharp.
stevespang 5y ago
Whole Foods and Amazon - - both Shit Shows. Thank God everyday I have my own small company and pocket just over 6 figures annually, work outdoors, get to swim and dive off rich peoples lake fronts. Sad for all those who are "slaves" for Bezos and co.
justinator 5y ago
When people say, "it's expensive to be poor" this is one of the issues they're talking about.
version_five 5y ago
I clicked feeling like it would be impossible to give them a fair chance in 3 minutes, but reading it I definitely am on the workers side and he gave them way more than 3 min. This is a Kafka level story, having long dealings with an obviously incompetent and labyrinthine organization, only to be immediately penalized for the slightest miss on his own part. Especially the "if you're not at your workstation in one minute you'll be penalized / where is my workstation / I dont know" bit is straight out of The Castle or something. Anyway, I agree with his overall feeling on the state of labor now.
- throwawaylinux 5y ago
  What is your feeling on the state of labor? The state of Amazon's blue collar working conditions are widely considered to be crap of course, and there are a lot of complaints about labor laws, unions, outsourcing and immigration, etc. I didn't quite see how he connected the issues in the post though. I mean beyond state of labor = not good (and maybe that's all you were saying too).
  - version_five 5y ago
    I was broadly agreeing with the poster that it's worth crying over. Without writing an essay, automation (and I mean mainly business process automation) has sucked the humanity out of work (maybe its always been that way), and people are treated at "resources". This happens at all levels but is worst, to the point of being potentially inhumane, in low skill jobs.
    - throwawaylinux 5y ago
      Oh yeah I agree with you there. What's really grating is that these people and "low skill" jobs that form the backbone of our functional society have been abandoned by the political movement they bled to create (which is obviously now hijacked and totally perverted by the ruling class). It makes me cringe every time I hear a "left" wing voter or politician boast about how much the uneducateds dislike them, and gloat about how worthless those people must be to be concerned about immigration policies affecting their jobs. It's no surprise their lot is not improving. I only hope they can band together and affect real change again before the ruling class is able to irrevocably divide people against one another. Maybe it's already too late :(
hereforphone 5y ago
Upvote for using old.reddit
- smegsicle 5y ago
  Is there an extension for rewriting links like that? like old.reddit, nitter, etc maybe just hosts file..
- minimaxir 5y ago
  Hacker News now auto-substitutes for old.reddit: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=reddit&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
  - lmm 5y ago
    They auto-substitute in a different reddit UI but leave paywalled links as-is? Wild.
    - MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
      harder problem
- wbc 5y ago
  I recently found out there's a setting you can "opt out" of new design. So it reverts UI for reddit.com to old.reddit.com, and all your links/redirects work w/o having to append `old`.
mherdeg 5y ago
Hmm this is an interesting anecdote to compare against the view ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29459245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29459245 ) that: > In the Earnings Call in July of this year, they said they now employe 950,000 warehouse workers. They're probably over the 1 MM mark right now due to the holidays. Yes, there are plenty of people working there that are overqualified, but that is the beauty of what Amazon is doing. Their onboarding and recruiting for this is incredibly smooth, fast, and will give virtually everyone a chance. I guess if you hire 500,000 people per year and 99% of people have an excellent onboarding process there will be 5,000 bad stories?
- nitwit005 5y ago
  I doubt it's as low as 1%. If you hire half a million people in a year, it's pretty much guaranteed a lot of the people involved won't know what they're doing. Many of the HR and recruiting people will be new too.
- ProjectArcturis 5y ago
  That's... not an anecdote? Also, fun math question: if they have 1MM workers, and hire 500k every year, what is their turnover rate?
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - germinalphrase 5y ago
    The number I heard reported recently was 150 percent a year, but I don’t have a source handy for that claim.
- csours 5y ago
  If you hire 500,000 people per year, you may be rejecting 500,000 people per year. Where and how you reject them may also be bad stories.
- hhmc 5y ago
  At what workforce size/turnover do you run into the issue that you might churn through your entire countrywide hiring pool?
throwawaysea 5y ago
I have no idea whether this story is real or not, given it is on a subreddit called "antiwork". But if true, that just sounds offensively miserable, unfair, and unprofessional. Rather that dissecting all those issues though, all I will say is that I wish we had more competition for these behemoth companies. They soak up so much of our economy that there can't be real competition against them. What scrappy retailer is going to have a chance against Amazon, who has their own marine shipping lines or whatever? What we need is stronger anti-trust legislation that is aggressively enforced. Or maybe a corporate income tax that is higher for companies with > $100B market capitalization. That way others can compete and provide an a better alternative, whether for workers or customers.
- SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
  It seems very hard to argue that at least Walmart isn't offering real competition against Amazon.
Waterluvian 5y ago
I don’t mean to be rude to those who are seeking a living, but let’s call this what it is. It’s not a hiring process. There is no interview. They aren’t interested in working with you to figure out if you’re a good fit for each other. They’re trawling the ocean and filtering the catch through drug and background tests. They process countless people every day, constantly replacing others who have broken down or reached EOL. Nobody here is meant to be anything but a cheap robot with decent sensor-end effector coordination. In fact, their humanity is a liability that Amazon begrudgingly tolerates, largely because it has to. We need robots in the worst possible way to replace any and every job that people would never choose to do as a hobby.
- ushakov 5y ago
  isn't this the same with tech jobs though? you are just as replaceable and the interview process is only there to filter out the bad candidates it's only more intense because the cost/risk ratio is magnitudes higher
  - diveanon 5y ago
    This is a gross simplification and really trivializes the struggle of people not privileged enough to work in our industry.
    - tsumnia 5y ago
      I actually disagree. If you're going to look down at "those people" making the company run, then yeah, us techies are just as easily trawled through and filtered via intense programming interviews. What's the turnover time for SWEs at Amazon anyway?
    - grp000 5y ago
      I think it captures the main point that Amazon hiring procedures for 99.9% of people are based on optimizing their bottom line. If they want something specific, they'll acquire it/copy the idea. Backend optimizations/tooling stuff I don't know. Maybe they're recruiting those people based on their research credentials.
idontwantthis 5y ago
I highly mistrust anything on /r/antiwork. So many of the posts are the “and everyone clapped” variety but get hundreds or thousands of upvotes, I’m pretty sure it’s at least half a troll karma farm.
- indrora 5y ago
  Since you're on HN, I'll give you the benefit of assuming you're working a nice, solid, salaried job. Retail is hell. It's the worst on-call you've ever experienced times a thousand. If you haven't worked retail in the last few years, I'd actually suggest doing the following: Go on the dating app of your choice and put out that you're legit looking for coffee with folks who work hourly retail jobs. You're vaguely tech adjacent, you can automate those swipes. Literally just ask people who match with you to tell their worst experience in retail. Ask those retail folks: Are you trained enough? Are you understaffed? Does your manager give a shit? Do you actually get the tips you're supposed to get? If you could walk away right now, would you? Invite 'em to have a coffee/tea, etc in some public place. Talk about what's going on. Genuinely give a shit. What you'll learn is that most hourly retail folks are living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. A friend of mine in college was making $7.70 an hour as a shift manager at a Taco Bell. The straw that broke the camel's back was when his manager suggested he take a *decrease in pay* and an *increase in hours* in exchange for "maybe getting salaried". He left and now is paid $35/hr to sell marijuana. As someone who works a salaried job at a MANGA/FAANG Forbes Top 100, I feel that some of us lose sight of what our retail-facing hourly folk are actually doing. Retail folks get the most abuse from both sides that I've seen. Last week, in the grocery near me, I looked at a dude who was mad about a few labels being misaligned, screaming until he was red in the face at an employee about how he was being ripped off, about how this was terrible. It wasn't until I walked over and (legitimately wanting the thing he was mad over) asked him to politely shut up and get over himself for not reading that he stopped, stomping out of the store. This store, like many others, basically demand that these people be happy in the face of abject abuse. The security at the door? That's only for shoplifting. Being a complete jerk to the floor workers? Not that poor fuck's job, and they can be reprimanded for stopping a fight from happening. In the face of [Nine dollar paychecks for 70 hours of work](https://www.today.com/food/working-mom-received-9-paycheck-70-hours-service-here-s-t174077 https://www.today.com/food/working-mom-received-9-paycheck-7...), a [rising wage theft issue that accounts for billions in unpaid wages](https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/ https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...), it's no wonder that [suicide rates of retail workers is going up](https://archive.md/VrvBu https://archive.md/VrvBu).
WalterBright 5y ago
The larger the organization, the more hamstrung it gets by its own bureaucracy. This applies to all large organizations - business, unions, government, religion. It's inevitable.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
rendang 5y ago
It appears like they have failed to "raise the bar" in hiring the HR reps/middle managers that the poster interacted with. Not surprising given how fast they've grown, and I'd imagine it is hard to find competent workers at that level.
giantg2 5y ago
Sadly, many of the elements of this story seem to exist at most employers to some degree.
ronanyeah 5y ago
This person has clearly never had a job outside.
torbTurret 5y ago
After reading that, I can’t help but feel like this is just someone experiencing awful anxiety and unable to cope with work: “ I go home absolutely drained and i didn’t even do anything. I wake up with the worst existential dread I’ve ever experienced. I cried for an hour straight. Not because amazon specifically, but for the broader state of labor in general. Sometimes id rather die then suffer until I die from an illness inevitably. I power through my break down. Leave for work to drive through a horrible storm. I ended up being a single minute late. I already get one point against me. Then I’m told if I’m not at my station by 7:05 I’ll get another point. I was never told where to report to. So I asked. In the rudest way possible they say they don’t know. I walk a little bit. 7:05 hits. And I just turn around and go home. I did everything I was supposed to do but got shit on before I even officially hit the floor. From the time I applied to when I walked out. I tried so hard to be optimistic, but that was the worst experience I’ve had getting a new job. I can’t help but feel disappointed with myself. I’m not in a good financial situation, and my girlfriend is not going to be happy. But with it being a shit show the entire time I just don’t see how that was gonna work, especially at a company like amazon. “
- crooked-v 5y ago
  The experience here, particularly being told to be at a workstation immediately without being told where that workstation is, goes well past mere anxiety into Kakfaesque absurdity.
- kbelder 5y ago
  I feel like even if his onboarding had been perfect, he'd be chewed up and spit out by the normal difficulties of any moderately challenging job. >I cried for an hour straight. Not because amazon specifically, but for the broader state of labor in general. I mean... I can't imagine an emotionally balanced person writing that. I don't want to make this into a personal attack, so maybe it just needs to be recognized that a lot of jobs -- most jobs -- deal with numerous stresses, and some people are not fit for those jobs. It's sad, because it's a very important life skill.
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
There is plenty of info online about becoming a worker at AWS if you are interested. https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process/application-guide#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process/application-guide#/ This guy did an insanely detailed step by step of the process. https://youtu.be/mfKctyhTi_Y?t=60 https://youtu.be/mfKctyhTi_Y?t=60 Playlist here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Ja-dm83mgqj8B_cP4GtjMiRtn3k1nR9 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Ja-dm83mgqj8B_cP4Gt... He has videos about picking jobs, application, first day etc. Note that from what I've heard Amazon really leans on the tech (ie, Amazon A to Z). You can resign / quit etc even from the phone app you download. Probably for the best for this person they didn't make it more than 3 minutes at the job - its not that easy in the end from what I've heard - much easier WFH type jobs these days if you can get them.
ineedasername 5y ago
I know Amazon isn't known for the same work environment as other SV places, but most of this post are about HR issues. And HR is awful in lots of places, and not representative of the rest of a workplace. Maybe at Amazon it is representative? But it's often not.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
givemeethekeys 5y ago
Why haven't they replaced their onboarding team with an app? Watch videos, take tests in a proctored environment, sign papers.. show up to work.
prytania 5y ago
lol /r/antiwork…
antiterra 5y ago
It’s always been surreal when I’ve had the chance to be/sit next to contractors whose every minute is accounted for and who cannot take a single day of vacation without finding someone to swap shifts with, every action under the scrutiny of a shift manager lording over them like a narcissistic parent. All the while, the salaried, fully insured and vastly more expensive ‘real’ employees all show up late to meetings, randomly work from home because their ISP is upgrading their equipment and occasionally drag a lunch to two hours or more.
- lobocinza 5y ago
  As a contractor I account hours spent on my own without providing evidence further than the work done.
  - antiterra 5y ago
    Perhaps I should have clarified that I am talking about closely managed shift employees and not the kind of contractors who self-direct the completion of project work.
- hiptobecubic 5y ago
  This is Google.
- gaws 5y ago
  > It’s always been surreal when I’ve had the chance to be/sit next to contractors whose every minute is accounted for and who cannot take a single day of vacation without finding someone to swap shifts with, every action under the scrutiny of a shift manager lording over them like a narcissistic parent. What a nightmare.
katzgrau 5y ago
It's easy to blame this on Amazon, but anyone who's worked in retail for a big company knows that this is just your standard low level employee incompetence and power tripping. It's really a swamp down there. Glad I made it out.
technobabbler 5y ago
Just stop using Amazon and AWS to the extent possible in your life. It's a net negative to society.
Covzire 5y ago
I have no clue on the state of working at Amazon but the writer seems to have some personal issues they should address.
sorry_outta_gas 5y ago
these places are overly large inhuman machines, no soul they want more and more; the inevidable end
hyrgii75rgh 5y ago
Wonder how long until this gets flagged off the front page.
- ruined 5y ago
  well, it's pushed to page two now, even though it has a higher score and lower age than some other still-frontpaged posts. but it doesn't say flagged
golemiprague 5y ago
What kind of guy cries for a whole hour just because he had some trouble at work? I wouldn't want such an unstable guy in my company and Amazon probably sensed that something is wrong with him
throwaway55421 5y ago
Reddit is one of, if not the single least reliable source of information on the Internet. You are looking at algorithmic feeds which propagate only information which has the majority vote. Not only that, but a majority vote of a community which becomes more radical as any opposition or moderates are pushed out. Point a microphone at a speaker and crank the gain. That awful feedback noise is Reddit.
- deelly 5y ago
  So, basically, just like any other social platform? Good to know.
altspace 5y ago
Thank you for posting this. I’m glad you made the choices you did. I hope you find better working environment.
serverlessmom 5y ago
Applying for a new job shouldn't be this stressful & them being so unprepared is absurd considering the company. It definitely speaks volumes about the environment that you will be subjected to for 8+ hours a day & its fair that you choose not to put up with it. I have also experienced having to quit shortly after starting a new job, I soon realized that my efforts were not going to be matched or acknowledged in a place where there was little to no organization & the supervisor could treat you as he pleased, if he even allowed you to speak to him that is since he was always so "busy". :s
TwoNineFive 5y ago
Everything about that feels like a russian disinfo campaign.
idworks1 5y ago
My brother was the first driver employed in a brand new amazon warehouse. He shook hands with the manager and came home to tell us the good news. He was hired! His start date of the following week was rescheduled many times. In fact, it went from August to November. The rest was a like landing in an island all by yourself. Nothing works, no one can help you, and you are on your own. Sometimes, he would just sit in the truck for a moment, holding his head together not knowing what to do. That was until the cameras were installed in the truck for them slackers. The only way he managed to survive there was out the generosity of random old time drivers that he met on the street. They gave him the ropes, shared private WhatsApp group where they coordinate and help each other with tips and tricks.
renewiltord 5y ago
This description is highly Kafkaesque and I believe part of it because HR is usually where people who are in the [μ-σ, μ) IQ population fit. But can we just talk about how every one of these people will have some bit somewhere down where “and my anxiety is getting worse” or “my ADHD is acting up” or something like that. It’s like this universal phenomenon. Like, I fully expect to see it when I start something like this. Personally I had my money on “And she didn’t understand that I was having a panic attack”. But ultimately it delivered in a different way.
jerome-jh 5y ago
At my company I have seen several changes over the last few years: - Work is getting shittier - Corporate internal communication has become very intense: several emails a day - Company news is mostly green-washing - Corporate communication is shifting to non-work related topics like sport, charity actions and general well-being - Trivial MOOCs are heavily promoted, sometimes made mandatory - The intranet has been more vexating everyday. Of course there is the "quest for sense" trend. But there is also a trend for selecting the most resilient to frustration and the most obedient. I interpret this as an influence low cost countries have on high-cost countries workforce. Forget about creativity, efficiency, technical excellence. These are not the values cherished by many companies these days.
whoknowswhat11 5y ago
For those confused, you scan in your badge, that get's you through the door. Then you check the monitor to figure out what job you will be doing (ie, pack or rebin) If your station is taken for some reason, you should be able to just move to another station and log in there - you don't have to use station assigned. You will also have a monitor which shoes your rate. Managers probably won't even know your name, and if you are day one employee showing up late, will have no clue who you are. Some of the safety rules (because amazon get's hammered on this) - SUPER annoying - no listening to music - are you kidding? The most boring job possible, and to keep folks safe no music, not even one earbud in.
bradgranath 5y ago
My impression of the hiring ethic at Amazon is that they deliberately ignore barriers to entry like this in order to select the set of workers that is most profitable/pliable while leaving them with an easy way of getting rid of folks they dont like.

253 points by ruined 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

Random anecdote: I remember trying to get a job at McDonalds and I had to take these tests like "would you rather kill 1 person or 5" it's like you had to choose one. I did not get that job. Similar process for other stuff like washing plates at chains.

quantified 5y ago

Might be the best outcome anyway.

ruined 5y ago

alternative view https://teddit.net/r/antiwork/comments/ra7tjf/i_lasted_three_minutes_at_amazon/ https://teddit.net/r/antiwork/comments/ra7tjf/i_lasted_three...

johnny35 5y ago

Systematizing and optimizing every detail of operations to create as large of a pool as possible of positions requiring the least possible skill, reducing the cost of turnover, training, and management complexity... seems to be externalizing a heavy toll on mental health. Regulation can tackle many cases of "socialized losses, privatized gains" but I am at a loss to understand how we can mitigate this one.

floatingatoll 5y ago
The one golden rule at Amazon is to externalize all costs that are paid by use of a human being’s labor and time. Regulations don’t stand a chance of moving quickly enough to keep up with Amazon’s innovation budget. The only way to counter that is worker unions, which can make specific and timely demands that Amazon treat workers more humanely. If workers unionize, Amazon has to stop externalizing the cost of labor.
- kcplate 5y ago
  Five years ago my daughter worked for Amazon in a fulfillment center for a few weeks. From her experience I developed a theory—Amazon expects a steady stream of new hires, figuring most will leave within a month. The job is low skill enough that that a new hire can hit a baseline throughput expectation (the stated goal is of course higher) within a day or two. Aggressive management demands probably pushes that baseline up pretty much until a few days before the eventual burnout. The ones that stay long term are those people willing to overlook a shit job, aggressive output measuring, and draconian management. Those folks generally aren’t beating the union drum within the org as loud as the transient 30 day folks. Unions have trouble finding purchase because organizers are fighting that turnover and the folks motivated to unionize don’t have the patience to get there.
beaconstudios 5y ago
this reads like the opposite of a systematised process - this reads like a bunch of departments who don't talk to each other striving to check off tasks in the onboarding process without actually making any effort to complete the intent of the task. Which would make sense at a highly metric-driven company like Amazon.
- zamalek 5y ago
  That's the inherent problem with quantifiable performance reviews: people optimize metrics, not results.
- Sparkyte 5y ago
  Amazon has a tendency to go through the show and tell in the hiring process but not commit through it. It isn't his fault. I'm sure he could've stood up for himself. However this is the flaw when you're just too big to succeed.
- lookalike74 5y ago
  It's a systematized process that's fractured and whoever you talk to in HR is either too arrogant to help or too ignorant to know how to. I worked for Amazon twice.
- woodruffw 5y ago
  There are many metrics that large companies can internally optimize for, one of which is ass-covering. It sounds like Amazon is no different from any other company in that regard.
nexuist 5y ago
Other than the drug test it didn't seem like there was a single thing OP was required to do that wouldn't be solved by automation. At my current job we set up direct deposit, filled out info for background checks, completed training videos and quizzes, etc. all through online forms. Everyone OP interacted with shouldn't even be in the picture. It's a warehouse job; I struggle to see why you even need any humans in the loop above the workers at all. Clock in, move the boxes, mark tasks completed on your handheld, clock out. Frankly I have no idea why the people org as described by OP exists the way it does for a company known for its cloud services. None of these morons OP dealt with needed to be employed.
- politician 5y ago
  The safety people need to be there.
- solnyshok 5y ago
  imagine they read your comment and implement that...
  - nexuist 5y ago
    Everyone would've had a day off today ;)
rowanajmarshall 5y ago
There was this chap about 150 years ago, wrote about the alienation from labour caused by breaking down jobs into tiny, mindless motions that slowly eat away at your sense of self. This stuff isn't new.

dekhn 5y ago

I had to read carefully into the article before I understood this is probably a fulfillment center job, not an AWS SWE.

preetamjinka 5y ago
Same. Do SWE/SDE roles also involve drug tests and orientations?
- ushakov 5y ago
  in Germany, they could do a background check if you used cannabis and got caught, you'll have a police record for up to 5 years when applying expect it not to be in your favour
  - dekhn 5y ago
    Fair enough, I was curious about that point too (but maybe they were working for govcloud, which probably has more onerous background checking). Every single job I've had in California for the past 30 years (from academic software engineer to computer scientist to industry software engineer) has clearly stated that they do not drug test before I signed any paper. In fact, my manager at Lawrence Berkeley Lab (RIP) was specifically sent there after he refused to take a drug test at a more serious DOE lab, "so he could fit in with all the other hippies and druggies". I can't speak to any of the other roles, although in my time in the food service industry there wasn't any testing either.
  - stormking 5y ago
    No, they can't do that, anymore, except for very specific jobs, e.g. working with children.
- dekhn 5y ago
  Sure (to orientations). Here's how a pre-COVID SWE orientation at Google (for folks in professional jobs in Mountain View, not data center contractors in The Dalles): there is a dedicated lobby and theater with multiple people staffing the area welcoming you in. You're handed a laptop, configure your credentials, log in, access benefits, etc, then sit down for a couple motivating videos/speeches and some details on your benefits. At this point you're ready to go to your team's work area (many details could be different outside the mothership). The second time around it was even more polished than the first time, but contained much less useful information and more cheerleading, so I left once I had my axe and saw that it was sharp.

stevespang 5y ago

Whole Foods and Amazon - - both Shit Shows. Thank God everyday I have my own small company and pocket just over 6 figures annually, work outdoors, get to swim and dive off rich peoples lake fronts. Sad for all those who are "slaves" for Bezos and co.

justinator 5y ago

When people say, "it's expensive to be poor" this is one of the issues they're talking about.

version_five 5y ago

I clicked feeling like it would be impossible to give them a fair chance in 3 minutes, but reading it I definitely am on the workers side and he gave them way more than 3 min. This is a Kafka level story, having long dealings with an obviously incompetent and labyrinthine organization, only to be immediately penalized for the slightest miss on his own part. Especially the "if you're not at your workstation in one minute you'll be penalized / where is my workstation / I dont know" bit is straight out of The Castle or something. Anyway, I agree with his overall feeling on the state of labor now.

throwawaylinux 5y ago
What is your feeling on the state of labor? The state of Amazon's blue collar working conditions are widely considered to be crap of course, and there are a lot of complaints about labor laws, unions, outsourcing and immigration, etc. I didn't quite see how he connected the issues in the post though. I mean beyond state of labor = not good (and maybe that's all you were saying too).
- version_five 5y ago
  I was broadly agreeing with the poster that it's worth crying over. Without writing an essay, automation (and I mean mainly business process automation) has sucked the humanity out of work (maybe its always been that way), and people are treated at "resources". This happens at all levels but is worst, to the point of being potentially inhumane, in low skill jobs.
  - throwawaylinux 5y ago
    Oh yeah I agree with you there. What's really grating is that these people and "low skill" jobs that form the backbone of our functional society have been abandoned by the political movement they bled to create (which is obviously now hijacked and totally perverted by the ruling class). It makes me cringe every time I hear a "left" wing voter or politician boast about how much the uneducateds dislike them, and gloat about how worthless those people must be to be concerned about immigration policies affecting their jobs. It's no surprise their lot is not improving. I only hope they can band together and affect real change again before the ruling class is able to irrevocably divide people against one another. Maybe it's already too late :(

hereforphone 5y ago

Upvote for using old.reddit

smegsicle 5y ago
Is there an extension for rewriting links like that? like old.reddit, nitter, etc maybe just hosts file..
minimaxir 5y ago
Hacker News now auto-substitutes for old.reddit: https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=reddit&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
- lmm 5y ago
  They auto-substitute in a different reddit UI but leave paywalled links as-is? Wild.
  - MathMonkeyMan 5y ago
    harder problem
wbc 5y ago
I recently found out there's a setting you can "opt out" of new design. So it reverts UI for reddit.com to old.reddit.com, and all your links/redirects work w/o having to append `old`.

mherdeg 5y ago

Hmm this is an interesting anecdote to compare against the view ( https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29459245 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29459245 ) that: > In the Earnings Call in July of this year, they said they now employe 950,000 warehouse workers. They're probably over the 1 MM mark right now due to the holidays. Yes, there are plenty of people working there that are overqualified, but that is the beauty of what Amazon is doing. Their onboarding and recruiting for this is incredibly smooth, fast, and will give virtually everyone a chance. I guess if you hire 500,000 people per year and 99% of people have an excellent onboarding process there will be 5,000 bad stories?

nitwit005 5y ago
I doubt it's as low as 1%. If you hire half a million people in a year, it's pretty much guaranteed a lot of the people involved won't know what they're doing. Many of the HR and recruiting people will be new too.
ProjectArcturis 5y ago
That's... not an anecdote? Also, fun math question: if they have 1MM workers, and hire 500k every year, what is their turnover rate?
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- germinalphrase 5y ago
  The number I heard reported recently was 150 percent a year, but I don’t have a source handy for that claim.
csours 5y ago
If you hire 500,000 people per year, you may be rejecting 500,000 people per year. Where and how you reject them may also be bad stories.
hhmc 5y ago
At what workforce size/turnover do you run into the issue that you might churn through your entire countrywide hiring pool?

throwawaysea 5y ago

I have no idea whether this story is real or not, given it is on a subreddit called "antiwork". But if true, that just sounds offensively miserable, unfair, and unprofessional. Rather that dissecting all those issues though, all I will say is that I wish we had more competition for these behemoth companies. They soak up so much of our economy that there can't be real competition against them. What scrappy retailer is going to have a chance against Amazon, who has their own marine shipping lines or whatever? What we need is stronger anti-trust legislation that is aggressively enforced. Or maybe a corporate income tax that is higher for companies with > $100B market capitalization. That way others can compete and provide an a better alternative, whether for workers or customers.

SpicyLemonZest 5y ago
It seems very hard to argue that at least Walmart isn't offering real competition against Amazon.

Waterluvian 5y ago

I don’t mean to be rude to those who are seeking a living, but let’s call this what it is. It’s not a hiring process. There is no interview. They aren’t interested in working with you to figure out if you’re a good fit for each other. They’re trawling the ocean and filtering the catch through drug and background tests. They process countless people every day, constantly replacing others who have broken down or reached EOL. Nobody here is meant to be anything but a cheap robot with decent sensor-end effector coordination. In fact, their humanity is a liability that Amazon begrudgingly tolerates, largely because it has to. We need robots in the worst possible way to replace any and every job that people would never choose to do as a hobby.

ushakov 5y ago
isn't this the same with tech jobs though? you are just as replaceable and the interview process is only there to filter out the bad candidates it's only more intense because the cost/risk ratio is magnitudes higher
- diveanon 5y ago
  This is a gross simplification and really trivializes the struggle of people not privileged enough to work in our industry.
  - tsumnia 5y ago
    I actually disagree. If you're going to look down at "those people" making the company run, then yeah, us techies are just as easily trawled through and filtered via intense programming interviews. What's the turnover time for SWEs at Amazon anyway?
  - grp000 5y ago
    I think it captures the main point that Amazon hiring procedures for 99.9% of people are based on optimizing their bottom line. If they want something specific, they'll acquire it/copy the idea. Backend optimizations/tooling stuff I don't know. Maybe they're recruiting those people based on their research credentials.

idontwantthis 5y ago

I highly mistrust anything on /r/antiwork. So many of the posts are the “and everyone clapped” variety but get hundreds or thousands of upvotes, I’m pretty sure it’s at least half a troll karma farm.

indrora 5y ago
Since you're on HN, I'll give you the benefit of assuming you're working a nice, solid, salaried job. Retail is hell. It's the worst on-call you've ever experienced times a thousand. If you haven't worked retail in the last few years, I'd actually suggest doing the following: Go on the dating app of your choice and put out that you're legit looking for coffee with folks who work hourly retail jobs. You're vaguely tech adjacent, you can automate those swipes. Literally just ask people who match with you to tell their worst experience in retail. Ask those retail folks: Are you trained enough? Are you understaffed? Does your manager give a shit? Do you actually get the tips you're supposed to get? If you could walk away right now, would you? Invite 'em to have a coffee/tea, etc in some public place. Talk about what's going on. Genuinely give a shit. What you'll learn is that most hourly retail folks are living hand to mouth, paycheck to paycheck. A friend of mine in college was making $7.70 an hour as a shift manager at a Taco Bell. The straw that broke the camel's back was when his manager suggested he take a *decrease in pay* and an *increase in hours* in exchange for "maybe getting salaried". He left and now is paid $35/hr to sell marijuana. As someone who works a salaried job at a MANGA/FAANG Forbes Top 100, I feel that some of us lose sight of what our retail-facing hourly folk are actually doing. Retail folks get the most abuse from both sides that I've seen. Last week, in the grocery near me, I looked at a dude who was mad about a few labels being misaligned, screaming until he was red in the face at an employee about how he was being ripped off, about how this was terrible. It wasn't until I walked over and (legitimately wanting the thing he was mad over) asked him to politely shut up and get over himself for not reading that he stopped, stomping out of the store. This store, like many others, basically demand that these people be happy in the face of abject abuse. The security at the door? That's only for shoplifting. Being a complete jerk to the floor workers? Not that poor fuck's job, and they can be reprimanded for stopping a fight from happening. In the face of [Nine dollar paychecks for 70 hours of work](https://www.today.com/food/working-mom-received-9-paycheck-70-hours-service-here-s-t174077 https://www.today.com/food/working-mom-received-9-paycheck-7...), a [rising wage theft issue that accounts for billions in unpaid wages](https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-from-workers-paychecks-each-year/ https://www.epi.org/publication/employers-steal-billions-fro...), it's no wonder that [suicide rates of retail workers is going up](https://archive.md/VrvBu https://archive.md/VrvBu).

WalterBright 5y ago

The larger the organization, the more hamstrung it gets by its own bureaucracy. This applies to all large organizations - business, unions, government, religion. It's inevitable.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

rendang 5y ago

It appears like they have failed to "raise the bar" in hiring the HR reps/middle managers that the poster interacted with. Not surprising given how fast they've grown, and I'd imagine it is hard to find competent workers at that level.

giantg2 5y ago

Sadly, many of the elements of this story seem to exist at most employers to some degree.

ronanyeah 5y ago

This person has clearly never had a job outside.

torbTurret 5y ago

After reading that, I can’t help but feel like this is just someone experiencing awful anxiety and unable to cope with work: “ I go home absolutely drained and i didn’t even do anything. I wake up with the worst existential dread I’ve ever experienced. I cried for an hour straight. Not because amazon specifically, but for the broader state of labor in general. Sometimes id rather die then suffer until I die from an illness inevitably. I power through my break down. Leave for work to drive through a horrible storm. I ended up being a single minute late. I already get one point against me. Then I’m told if I’m not at my station by 7:05 I’ll get another point. I was never told where to report to. So I asked. In the rudest way possible they say they don’t know. I walk a little bit. 7:05 hits. And I just turn around and go home. I did everything I was supposed to do but got shit on before I even officially hit the floor. From the time I applied to when I walked out. I tried so hard to be optimistic, but that was the worst experience I’ve had getting a new job. I can’t help but feel disappointed with myself. I’m not in a good financial situation, and my girlfriend is not going to be happy. But with it being a shit show the entire time I just don’t see how that was gonna work, especially at a company like amazon. “

crooked-v 5y ago
The experience here, particularly being told to be at a workstation immediately without being told where that workstation is, goes well past mere anxiety into Kakfaesque absurdity.
kbelder 5y ago
I feel like even if his onboarding had been perfect, he'd be chewed up and spit out by the normal difficulties of any moderately challenging job. >I cried for an hour straight. Not because amazon specifically, but for the broader state of labor in general. I mean... I can't imagine an emotionally balanced person writing that. I don't want to make this into a personal attack, so maybe it just needs to be recognized that a lot of jobs -- most jobs -- deal with numerous stresses, and some people are not fit for those jobs. It's sad, because it's a very important life skill.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

There is plenty of info online about becoming a worker at AWS if you are interested. https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process/application-guide#/ https://hiring.amazon.com/hiring-process/application-guide#/ This guy did an insanely detailed step by step of the process. https://youtu.be/mfKctyhTi_Y?t=60 https://youtu.be/mfKctyhTi_Y?t=60 Playlist here: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Ja-dm83mgqj8B_cP4GtjMiRtn3k1nR9 https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL8Ja-dm83mgqj8B_cP4Gt... He has videos about picking jobs, application, first day etc. Note that from what I've heard Amazon really leans on the tech (ie, Amazon A to Z). You can resign / quit etc even from the phone app you download. Probably for the best for this person they didn't make it more than 3 minutes at the job - its not that easy in the end from what I've heard - much easier WFH type jobs these days if you can get them.

ineedasername 5y ago

I know Amazon isn't known for the same work environment as other SV places, but most of this post are about HR issues. And HR is awful in lots of places, and not representative of the rest of a workplace. Maybe at Amazon it is representative? But it's often not.

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

givemeethekeys 5y ago

Why haven't they replaced their onboarding team with an app? Watch videos, take tests in a proctored environment, sign papers.. show up to work.

prytania 5y ago

lol /r/antiwork…

antiterra 5y ago

It’s always been surreal when I’ve had the chance to be/sit next to contractors whose every minute is accounted for and who cannot take a single day of vacation without finding someone to swap shifts with, every action under the scrutiny of a shift manager lording over them like a narcissistic parent. All the while, the salaried, fully insured and vastly more expensive ‘real’ employees all show up late to meetings, randomly work from home because their ISP is upgrading their equipment and occasionally drag a lunch to two hours or more.

lobocinza 5y ago
As a contractor I account hours spent on my own without providing evidence further than the work done.
- antiterra 5y ago
  Perhaps I should have clarified that I am talking about closely managed shift employees and not the kind of contractors who self-direct the completion of project work.
hiptobecubic 5y ago
This is Google.
gaws 5y ago
> It’s always been surreal when I’ve had the chance to be/sit next to contractors whose every minute is accounted for and who cannot take a single day of vacation without finding someone to swap shifts with, every action under the scrutiny of a shift manager lording over them like a narcissistic parent. What a nightmare.

katzgrau 5y ago

It's easy to blame this on Amazon, but anyone who's worked in retail for a big company knows that this is just your standard low level employee incompetence and power tripping. It's really a swamp down there. Glad I made it out.

technobabbler 5y ago

Just stop using Amazon and AWS to the extent possible in your life. It's a net negative to society.

Covzire 5y ago

I have no clue on the state of working at Amazon but the writer seems to have some personal issues they should address.

sorry_outta_gas 5y ago

these places are overly large inhuman machines, no soul they want more and more; the inevidable end

hyrgii75rgh 5y ago

Wonder how long until this gets flagged off the front page.

ruined 5y ago
well, it's pushed to page two now, even though it has a higher score and lower age than some other still-frontpaged posts. but it doesn't say flagged

golemiprague 5y ago

What kind of guy cries for a whole hour just because he had some trouble at work? I wouldn't want such an unstable guy in my company and Amazon probably sensed that something is wrong with him

throwaway55421 5y ago

Reddit is one of, if not the single least reliable source of information on the Internet. You are looking at algorithmic feeds which propagate only information which has the majority vote. Not only that, but a majority vote of a community which becomes more radical as any opposition or moderates are pushed out. Point a microphone at a speaker and crank the gain. That awful feedback noise is Reddit.

deelly 5y ago
So, basically, just like any other social platform? Good to know.

altspace 5y ago

Thank you for posting this. I’m glad you made the choices you did. I hope you find better working environment.

serverlessmom 5y ago

Applying for a new job shouldn't be this stressful & them being so unprepared is absurd considering the company. It definitely speaks volumes about the environment that you will be subjected to for 8+ hours a day & its fair that you choose not to put up with it. I have also experienced having to quit shortly after starting a new job, I soon realized that my efforts were not going to be matched or acknowledged in a place where there was little to no organization & the supervisor could treat you as he pleased, if he even allowed you to speak to him that is since he was always so "busy". :s

TwoNineFive 5y ago

Everything about that feels like a russian disinfo campaign.

idworks1 5y ago

My brother was the first driver employed in a brand new amazon warehouse. He shook hands with the manager and came home to tell us the good news. He was hired! His start date of the following week was rescheduled many times. In fact, it went from August to November. The rest was a like landing in an island all by yourself. Nothing works, no one can help you, and you are on your own. Sometimes, he would just sit in the truck for a moment, holding his head together not knowing what to do. That was until the cameras were installed in the truck for them slackers. The only way he managed to survive there was out the generosity of random old time drivers that he met on the street. They gave him the ropes, shared private WhatsApp group where they coordinate and help each other with tips and tricks.

renewiltord 5y ago

This description is highly Kafkaesque and I believe part of it because HR is usually where people who are in the [μ-σ, μ) IQ population fit. But can we just talk about how every one of these people will have some bit somewhere down where “and my anxiety is getting worse” or “my ADHD is acting up” or something like that. It’s like this universal phenomenon. Like, I fully expect to see it when I start something like this. Personally I had my money on “And she didn’t understand that I was having a panic attack”. But ultimately it delivered in a different way.

jerome-jh 5y ago

At my company I have seen several changes over the last few years: - Work is getting shittier - Corporate internal communication has become very intense: several emails a day - Company news is mostly green-washing - Corporate communication is shifting to non-work related topics like sport, charity actions and general well-being - Trivial MOOCs are heavily promoted, sometimes made mandatory - The intranet has been more vexating everyday. Of course there is the "quest for sense" trend. But there is also a trend for selecting the most resilient to frustration and the most obedient. I interpret this as an influence low cost countries have on high-cost countries workforce. Forget about creativity, efficiency, technical excellence. These are not the values cherished by many companies these days.

whoknowswhat11 5y ago

For those confused, you scan in your badge, that get's you through the door. Then you check the monitor to figure out what job you will be doing (ie, pack or rebin) If your station is taken for some reason, you should be able to just move to another station and log in there - you don't have to use station assigned. You will also have a monitor which shoes your rate. Managers probably won't even know your name, and if you are day one employee showing up late, will have no clue who you are. Some of the safety rules (because amazon get's hammered on this) - SUPER annoying - no listening to music - are you kidding? The most boring job possible, and to keep folks safe no music, not even one earbud in.

bradgranath 5y ago

My impression of the hiring ethic at Amazon is that they deliberately ignore barriers to entry like this in order to select the set of workers that is most profitable/pliable while leaving them with an easy way of getting rid of folks they dont like.