16 ms·

Study: Most Dog Breeds Highly Inbred

133 points by rustoo 5y ago

m12k 5y ago
A good rule of thumb is that the more a dog looks like a wolf, the less inbred it is.
- an9n 5y ago
  Really? Alsatians have dreadful hip dysplasia, and look pretty wolfy.
  - notyourwork 5y ago
    Most rules have exceptions and edge cases.
nyanpasu64 5y ago
Why not cross different dog breeds to increase total diversity instead of trying to protect what's left?
- pibechorro 5y ago
  Because people are disconnected from what matters in nature and self-centered. French pugs are at the top of breed popularity, facepalm. Inbred dogs for shallow purposes is a reflection on our species.
- sliken 5y ago
  That makes complete sense. However a well recognized scientist specializing in dog breeding gave a talk at a conference for a particular breed. They had done extensive genetic analysis of that breed and had some recommendations. Among other recommendations, they recommended mixing in a few animals from the European variant of that breed into the American breeding population. The crowd went quiet, all future talks/panels for the scientist were cancelled. They were uninvited from the conference. Sad that many breed enthusiasts and even the AKC (who sets the breed standards) are damaging the breeds they care so much about.
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Some people want a specific breed for generally aesthetic reasons. And some breeds exist almost exclusively for aesthetics (vs working and sporting breeds). Sadly, some working breeds have degenerated to the point they can barely work - GSDs with short rear legs and hip problems come to mind.
- rubyist5eva 5y ago
  Because capitalism. People want to buy “pure” dogs which causes this.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
- zaroth 5y ago
  I’m not personally a big fan of “purebreds”, but breed was important to me because I had small children and needed an extremely predictable and fairly easily obtained behavior profile. Specifically, I wanted a dope of a dog that was a living, breathing stuffed animal but with enough intelligence to be trained on the basics easily. So I bred my goldendoodle with a bernedoodle and got exactly what I was looking for! You do get more variation in the litters, which can be a double edged sword. For example, one of the pups ended up being shedding, where non-shedding was a desired and expected trait for me. Overall, breeding and getting to help deliver and raise a litter was one of the most fun & rewarding activities my family has ever done, and when we get holiday cards every year from all the families that got a pup with those dogs featured, it is just the best feeling.
  - Geezus-42 5y ago
    Doodles already aren't purebred.
    - simplyaccont 5y ago
      try to explain it to proud owners of "standard Australian mini labradoodle" or something like this... they claim that it's a new pure breed
      - alistairSH 5y ago
        If you paid $4000 for a designer pooch, you'd make that claim too. ;)
        simplyaccont 5y ago
        Yeah. I "manage" at work dog owners group in our collaboration system that has >500 people now. Amount of purebred doodles or poos is amazing. I wasn't even aware that those combinations are bred
- goda90 5y ago
  One of our dogs is from farmers who specifically bought a giant working breed from across the country to sire puppies with their other giant working breed dogs. The two breeds make a good mix, and it ensures some genetic diversity. They actually use dogs on the farm, so they have more of an interest in cultivating health and good temperament than designer looks like some breeders do.
- newaccount2021 5y ago
  there are many benefits to having a mutt the dumbest dogs I have ever owned were a very-pure viszla and a very-pure mastiff. between the two of them there could not have been ten working brain cells. now I have a mutt that has such diverse characteristics that it is confounding for dog experts to tell me what he is...he is also, by a mile, the smartest dog I have ever had I am convinced the purebred = dumb observation is not just an anecdote
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  That happens too, there are quite a few ‘designer’ cross breeds, like labradoodle or cavapoo. Article: https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/pets/g3414/cutest-mixed-breed-dogs/ https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/pets/g3414/cutest-mixe...
- quickthrowman 5y ago
  Because you can’t get $2,000+ for a ‘mutt’ puppy
green-eclipse 5y ago
This is interesting, but not exactly news. Has been known for decades.
- sliken 5y ago
  Indeed, a major contributor is the AKC who rates breeds on arbitrary characteristics like shoulder height and color instead of overall fitness. So you end up with dogs with terrible hips, cancer, spine problems, breathing problems, etc but have the right color hair.
- azemetre 5y ago
  I do think it's news because some breeds suffer terribly at the end of their life, like golden retrieves typically getting cancer at 60% rates. [1] Would you get a golden retriever if you knew that at 7 years-old it's very likely to get a brain tumor? The same can be said for many breeds that suffer from breathing problems (pugs) or spinal issues (german shepherds) because someone decided that a german shepard should have a certain angle arc in its back because it was "visually" pleasing. It's honestly disgusting, the UK kennel club bares the majority of this suffering because they somehow declared themselves the defacto authority figure during the late 1880s. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-do-so-many-golden-retrievers-get-cancer-massive-study-hopes-to-find-out/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-do-so-many-golden-retriever...
  - Frost1x 5y ago
    At some period of human history, breeding for some traits probably made sense, functionally. Dogs that could hunt well or track other animals for you all made sense in a survival situation. The mess we got into was when we started this whole selective genetic manipulation based on visual appearances and at the cost of their health. As pets, to me, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do all this nonsense selective breeding and inbreeding that perpetuates clear genetic issues that would resolve with a bit natural diversity. I never want to have a 'pure' bred dog both in principle against the idea and because more diversity means my pet has a better chance of moving away from bad generic traits or moving their pups into that direction (and a potentially longer, healthier life). My sibling owned a pug at one point when I was young and she was incredibly cute and sweet but at a cost to her health. Her facial wrinkle folds were prone to bacterial infection and had to be cleaned regularly, she suffered a lot of food allergies, had clear breathing problems, but fortunately didn't suffer from any sort of eye problems pugs are prone to. She ultimately died of cancer. I'll take rescue pets which are most often not selectively bred any day over encouraging the breeding nonsense. All of my rescue pets have lived long and healthy lives into old age with almost no issues, just by avoiding inbreeding for at least one level of lineage.
h2odragon 5y ago
Going on 30 years, I have had a pack of working hounds, usually from 4 to 12 strong. We have rural land surrounded by large plots of more rural land, 4,000 acres+ of tree farm and private hunting preserve, so our hounds are necessary for keeping coyotes and etc off livestock and other pets. In that time we've had many litters of puppies, usually trading them with neighbors to improve the local landrace and pass around some of the best traits. There's a steady input of "dumped purebeed" in the local mutts, they never survive long unless rescued. "Pure" breeds are useful in being controlled and defined parameters to breed from; hybrids are the best "working" dogs however. IMO. Our greatest successes have been with hunting hounds (bluetick coonhound or great danes) x "herding dogs" of some spread. The border collie x Bluetick cross produces some great dogs but there's a high proportion of psychopaths; expect 1:20 or so to be one of those puppies you just cant do anything with without insane effort. Bluetick x Catahoula are more mentally stable but likely to fall to the "merle on merle" cillia based health issues. (Digestive trouble and/or hearing issues) Great danes x collie were robust, intelligent, big dogs that avoided almost all the inhertibale issues of the parent lines; but that's a cross you don't want to undertake raising without significant time. They're as bright as a small child and they feel they need a job: furthermore if you're not the boss, they feel they have to be. Of 4 litters (all large, hounds are profligate) we got 2 willful and bright enough I'd call them "psycho pups". Bad news at that size and vitality. Great for a herd dog, but only if you don't care about having input into how the herd is run.
- DizzyDoo 5y ago
  Really interesting, thanks for posting. What do you practically do with the psychopath dogs/pups? Presumably the 'insane effort' required to keep them in line doesn't square well with all the other hard work your farm requires. Are you essentially forced to give the mentally unstable ones to a shelter?
  - zoe4883 5y ago
    Not OP. Dogs are pack animals, so less bright are kept in order by pack. They are still usable for guarding, but can not be used for herding or hunting. "Psychopat" dogs have to be put down. Risk they attack something is too big. But they are rare.
todd8 5y ago
From the featured article: > The average inbreeding based on genetic analysis across 227 breeds was close to 25%, or the equivalent of sharing the same genetic material with a full sibling Full siblings would actual share approximately 50%.
- zdw 5y ago
  It's been a while since I took biology, but doesn't this depend on the genders of the siblings? Two male brothers have XY, and the Y would have to be shared with the father, and same with two sisters (X from father), but a brother and sister would get a minimum of 50% different as the X and Y from the father would be different?
  - mbreese 5y ago
    In humans, y is so small as to be insignificant in these terms. ChrX is much larger. Also, the combination of the remaining chr1-22 are much larger than chrX by itself, so these numbers don’t factor in as much as you’d think. Rough scale example: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX YY
    - ErikVandeWater 5y ago
      Off topic, but I very much enjoy the creativity you used to explain the relative size of the chromosomes.
tharne 5y ago
I think this is one of those studies where you didn't really need to do a study.
- psyc 5y ago
  I feel the same about a great many studies, but normally would never say so here. What if people found out I was tainted in my epistemologies?
- lallysingh 5y ago
  It's useful to measure things even if we already know that they're common. Numbers tell a story that beliefs cannot.
- wheybags 5y ago
  New study shows most water is wet
  - pilsetnieks 5y ago
    There is, however, a significant percentage of it in dry or gaseous form.
    - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
      You got me thinking now... How many chemicals/materials have different names depending on their state of matter, versus just having an adjective prepended? When ice melts, it's called water. But when steel melts, it's just called molten steel.
- gwern 5y ago
  No, this is important. There are a lot of people who will tell you that 'selective breeding doesn't work and always backfires, because look how unhealthy some dog breeds are'. This study is part of the evidence-base showing that that is wrong: those dog breeds are unhealthy because they are incredibly inbred with effective population sizes so small you may be able to count them on two hands. The bulldogs will always be unhealthy to some degree because those faces are just not a good idea, but even there some bulldog breeds are far sicklier than others, and it's due to the inbreeding, and when you know that, you know how to improve them. This is important for stuff like agricultural breeding: the problems aren't inevitable, and are caused by specific mistakes, like starting with too few individuals, closing the studbook prematurely, and not outcrossing.
JoeAltmaier 5y ago
Kind of the definition of a 'dog breed'?
krona 5y ago
The UK kennel club allows you to calculate the inbreeding coefficient for either a registered (pedigree) dog or for future puppies of two potential mates: https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/inbreeding-co-efficient/ https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/inbreeding-co-effici... This kind of information is used by responsible breeders and buyers, thus my dachshund has 0% inbreeding going back 5 generations.
- mgarfias 5y ago
  the problem with these calculations is that they're based on pedigree, not genetics. If you're only studying 3-5 generations of pedigree, the COI might look REALLY good, but the animal can still be a genetic mess because those 3-5 generations all had a common (or multiple common) ancestors in generations 6-7.
- noselasd 5y ago
  The point is though that most dog breeds are already too inbred . I.e. even if your particular dog isn't inbred according to some particular measure - the entire dog breed are already way too much inbred and have very little genetic diversite. Leading up to most dogs of that breed having multiple deficits. (I don't know if that applies to dachshounds though - in general it applies less to dog breeds used for utility)
- topicseed 5y ago
  I think some pure breeds, due to their slight inbreeding by design, are going through "inbreeding depression". Probably because some breeds just don't have that large of a gene pool to start with. [0] https://breedingbusiness.com/inbreeding-depression/ https://breedingbusiness.com/inbreeding-depression/
peteradio 5y ago
We have a cross between a purebred momma English Spring Spaniel and a purebred daddy Black Lab. They were an accidental happening and we got our boy for cheap. One of our friends got one of his sisters. The variety in those pups is pretty wild. The coloring is similar, black body with white tuxedo stripe along the belly. Our boy is nearly identical looking to the purebred flat coated retrievers we had growing up, he has soft long fur and fully webbed feet. His sister looks like a runt black lab with short coarse fur, our boy is twice her size in weight and stature. I love our mutt!
moralestapia 5y ago
Is there a pair of dog breeds who is so different from each other such that no offspring is possible between them?
- pueblito 5y ago
  Not at all. Domestic dogs, coyotes and wolves can all breed together.
  - moralestapia 5y ago
    Nice! Thanks!
- alistairSH 5y ago
  Genetically, they should all be able to interbreed, also with wolves and coyotes. However, there are quite a few breeds that are known to have breeding and birthing problems. Some unable to properly mount each other and breed. Others with hips too small to properly birth and need close to 100% C-section delivery. I can imagine these problems could be exacerbated by attempts to breed with other larger breeds.
- bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
  Yes. The pairing would probably be a male from a bigger breed and a bulldog bitch as the latter often can’t give birth without a C section. So, sans technology, I can imagine there are at least a few pairs where offspring wouldn’t happen.
- smt88 5y ago
  I don't know if this counts, but a lot of bulldog-like dogs can't give live birth because they're so deformed and unnatural. They can only give birth by C-section.
whalesalad 5y ago
Wish people were more mindful of this in real life. All these dogs with short snouts have terrible problems breathing when they get older (and many when they are young). I will have GSD's from a working line for the rest of my life.
- clusterhacks 5y ago
  Totally agree re:short snout problems. I was shocked recently to see several pictures of short-nosed Rottweilers with what looks like a tendency to have noses that seem to be trending in pug-like direction. I mean, I hadn't really been keeping up with the breed, but I am curious what the heck people are thinking . . . OTOH, I may be done with working line shepherds for the rest of my life. But enjoy!
rubyist5eva 5y ago
I though this was common knowledge? This is why I prefer “mutts” myself.
helpfulmandrill 5y ago
Isn't that how you get a dog breed?
- h2odragon 5y ago
  Line breeding is almost necessary for trait stabilization, yes. Lots of culls. When the "breed standards" market values looks over anything else for 50yr+, you get... what we got now.
resters 5y ago
It's sort of strange that everyone thinks that an aggressive eugenics program for animals is completely normal and morally acceptable (just because it's been going on for a long time). In my opinion, purchasing a purebred pet is cringeworthy at best.
- h2odragon 5y ago
  Eugenics gave us much better cows, pigs and chickens. We've continued that to freakish levels in some instances. You morals are your own; mine are just fine with short lived chickens and $2/lb chicken breast. The angus and longhorn enthusiasts better police some of their nuts or they're gonna get the Aurochs back.
  - pessimizer 5y ago
    The purpose of dog breeding isn't health or usefulness, it's to match a picture and description.
    - harpersealtako 5y ago
      Generalizations like this are kind of ridiculous, given the existence of hunting dogs, police dogs, herding dogs, livestock guardian dogs, and even many ordinary family/companionship dogs that are specifically bred to be docile, long-living pets.
- kcb 5y ago
  Dogs are not naturally occurring.
bArray 5y ago
This is well known. Sometimes people breed the grandfather with the bitch or even the father. I think 'Pedigree certificates' has a lot to answer for in this regard. It doesn't encourage any kind of genetic diversity and people are actively discouraged and punished for trying to introduce new blood into lines. Another group to blame are 'puppy farms', people who breed merely to make money and take no responsibility for the genetic mess they make. I have a family member that breeds dogs quite seriously - one of their goals is to reintroduce good health traits back into the (working) breeds and undo the awful effects of inbreeding. Sometimes this involves reading the breeders notes from over a hundred years ago and trying to reproduce the same result (it's not easy). Often it seems to be enough to introduce a few closely related healthy breeds and after three or so generations you can get back to something healthier and a good representative of that breed. There are a few breeds that are in desperate need of serious dedication - namely short-nose breeds (i.e. Pugs, British Bulldogs, etc). Pugs are by far the worse I've encountered in terms of physical health defects, a significant number of Pug puppies are culled early on due to spine defects of breathing issues. Those that end up getting sold are almost guaranteed to end up with breathing issues. One of the healthier dogs you can own tends to be a mid-sized Mutt (cross-breed). From annecdata, I've found that a Bulldog (typically strong working dogs, dumb but loyal) crossed with something smarter but mid-sized tends to yield good temperament, long-life dogs with average intelligence (which is a good thing [+]). [+] Generally you want your dog to be smart enough to read your queues and work around you, but not so smart that it's getting bored or trying to figure out how to escape.
- thih9 5y ago
  > not so smart that it's getting bored or trying to figure out how to escape. This could be understood as if the most intelligent dogs were always bored or trying to escape. To clarify: intelligent dogs do need more stimulation, this is very true. But as long as they get it, they're happy.
  - a-saleh 5y ago
    I discussed this with my partner that takes her hobby of dog-training very seriously (like, we live with three dogs, and she sometimes does payed woroshops, e.t.c) that Border Colies are often considered to be the most intelligent dogs, but that might be mostly a side-product of breeding them to be eager to please. In theory many other breeds could be more intelligent, but border collie is the one most likely to be excited to learn how to be good at the tests we give the dogs.
323 5y ago
I vaguely remember reading that if you randomly bred dogs they slowly revert back to the "original" kind (strays). Is that true?
- Frost1x 5y ago
  Do you perhaps mean wolves by strays? If so,, I don't think that's how natural evolution works, otherwise humans might start looking like Homo erectus. The main distinction between an actual 'stray' dog and a domestic dog is environmental, being around humans and so on and less to do with genetics. If you let dogs breed freely they'd probably still clump into sets of similar genetic and physical traits based on time and location (and their prior genetics).
- takk309 5y ago
  That does bring up a good question, if one were to breed dogs at random from a very large pool of dogs, how many generations would it take to revert to a wolf-like dog? Of course some care would be needed to ensure the dogs were a compatible size, that is no St. Bernards crossed with corgis. For the sake of argument let's say 1,000 randomly selected medium (30 to 70 pounds) dogs as the initial pool and taking care to avoid inbreeding at least 5 generations back.
  - gwern 5y ago
    Assuming no selection is involved, merely global mating completely at random where any dog could breed with any dog, they would never 'revert'. You would instead get a global average of current dogs, and then there would be a very wide bell curve around that mean, which would throw up lots of extremes at random. Genes are conserved, and get randomly distributed among offspring. It's like how red hair pops up in some families. The red hair gene never 'disappeared' or 'got averaged out', it just kept being passed on until it met another copy. Another example is interracial families: you might think that the kids would all 'look like' the average of the two parents, but sometimes one kid will look just like one parent even though they are biracial. (Apparently this can cause problems, like if a little blonde-haired blue-eyed girl is walking around with her dad from Africa.) On a historical note, this was a major issue for Darwin & Galton trying to come up with a statistical model of 'genes': the initial efforts of 'blending inheritance' predicted that everyone would quickly become the same height etc, which is both obviously not true (short parents can have tall kids and vice versa) and would mean evolution is impossible (no variation to select on!).
sktrdie 5y ago
What I find interesting is that dogs are way better adapt at living a “city life” or an “apartment life” than we ever will be (unless we start breeding for those traits ourselves). People think “ah dogs are animals and should live in nature and not in closed doors of a city apartment”. Nope, from a genetic point of view some dogs are way more naturally fit to live indoors (look at Maltese for instance who’s bread to be a lap dog). I also wonder: doesn’t the genetic diversity between different breeds help account with defeating illness? What I mean is that if some sort of disease pops up it might kill a % of breeds, but another % might survive because, well, they’re a different breed with a trait that helped defeat that disease. Us humans on the other hand have stopped evolving and are quite genetically the same (much more similar than dogs). So from that perspective I wonder whether a disease would be much more dangerous for us & whether actual breeding might be good overall for their species. Of course inbreeding is a separate issue that hurts the life of the individual. But our apparent need to want different kind of dogs might actually end up saving their species in a doomsday scenario.
- dfsegoat 5y ago
  > What I find interesting is that dogs are way better adapt at living a “city life” or an “apartment life” This is certainly not the case with some of the herding / working dog breeds (GSD, Malinois etc) - it is borderline cruel keeping them in an apartment in some cases, and dangerous in others. I lived with a presa canario for a year in an apartment (roommates dog) - it was not a good situation for the dog or anyone else. After I moved out, I learned the dog attacked someone and was euthanized.
  - sktrdie 5y ago
    Certainly makes sense we also breed in the opposite direction. Where they are better fit to be outdoors. Still I would argue dogs have a certain adaptation to living indoors that was bread into them artificially rather than naturally. Herd dogs still relied on the food/shelter from the owner.
  - notyourwork 5y ago
    > This is certainly not the case with some of the herding / working dog breeds (GSD, Malinois etc) - it is borderline cruel keeping them in an apartment in some cases, and dangerous in others. 100%, I live in a city high rise. I see too many anxious dogs in that category that are "toys" to the owner and do not get sufficient exercise and mental stimulation. I love the beligan malinois breed but realize I have a lifestyle today that prevents me from owning one. Its similar to fish and aquarium sizes in many ways.
ethbr0 5y ago
Side note: you can get a pretty robust genetic panels (health + breed) for dogs for about $150 now. We did it recently on two of our pups (both mutts), and it was neat seeing the various possible lineages. Our tiny terrier / beagle mix came back with >10% Chow & Siberian Husky. Never would have guessed that! https://embarkvet.com/ https://embarkvet.com/
- tata71 5y ago
  Time to do this would be before you acquired the dog, no?
  - ethbr0 5y ago
    Well, if you're adopting from a shelter, chances are the genetics are pretty varied.
NDizzle 5y ago
Hopefully less inbreeding is one of the positive outcomes of the current "designer mutt" fad. I was thinking about this the other day actually...
- latchkey 5y ago
  This should be the top comment. I don't fault people who do get designer dogs, but I just got a "covid rescue" dog... a 5 year old something or another and given all the amazing dogs that need happy homes, I can't imagine buying a specially bred dog.
jqpabc123 5y ago
A lot of dog "breeds" are basically just genetic deformities being perpetuated through in-breeding. For example, some French bulldogs have a face that is so deformed it can barely eat or breathe. Some people think such deformed animals look "cute" but various Kennel Clubs are starting to penalize them in dog shows.
- hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
  This image of 2 French bulldogs, one a winning show dog and the other the attempt to make a healthier breed, has made the rounds and it really shows the scope of the problem: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/oaw4v8/the_dog_on_the_left_is_award_winning_showdog/ https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/oaw4v8/t...
- TulliusCicero 5y ago
  It’s pretty gross. It’s animal abuse at that point, breeding in a way that you know causes the animal great suffering.
tonystubblebine 5y ago
I resent the idea of some third party organization setting the standard for whether my dogs are an official breed or not. So I've been making up breeds whenever people ask. My current dog, Eloise, is fairly obviously a mutt with a lot of St. Bernard and a lot of Great Pyrenees. So when people ask I say, "Oh, she's a new breed that people are calling St. Pyrenees. Her ancestors included some Great Pyrenees and some St. Bernard" By people I mean me.
- an1sotropy 5y ago
  This is a great! We have a rescue dog picked off the streets of Stewart, FL (near West Palm Beach), so I say "oh he's a West Palm Beach Itinerant". People who take breeds seriously get confused, everyone else has a laugh.
bigmattystyles 5y ago
Isn’t there a known phenomenon where a species has been inbreeding for so long that they’ve selected out defects caused by inbreeding via natural selection? I thought I had heard that about lab mice, but I can’t find info about it.
- gwern 5y ago
  Yes, that's actually referenced in the Discussion of the paper if you want to look at a mouse textbook. But while that can happen, it obviously has not in dogs given their results. It'd be nice if it had, but it didn't. (I'm not sure why: perhaps lab mice have gone through far more generations, with much more stringent selection on overall health, and that is how much it takes to purge all the exposed bad recessives etc?)
otabdeveloper4 5y ago
"Studies show water is wet".
dlkf 5y ago
You're saying my basset hound is inbred? I don't buy it.
f6v 5y ago
Dog breeding is mostly a net-negative for the society. Kind of like jewelry and luxury cars.
- bluedevil2k 5y ago
  What a negative and downright wrong thing to say. Dog owners are happier and healthier than non-dog owners. https://time.com/collection/guide-to-happiness/4870796/dog-owners-benefits/ https://time.com/collection/guide-to-happiness/4870796/dog-o...
  - slothtrop 5y ago
    What does that have to do with dog breeding? Add to the fact, there's more than one way to be healthier and happier.
    - kcb 5y ago
      I'm not sure if this was the point he was trying to make but dog breeding is why dogs exist.
  - hairofadog 5y ago
    I'm not the person you're replying to, but: I love dogs, I have a dog, and I think dog breeding is a net evil. I wish it would stop. Edit: While it's admittedly over-the-top snarky, this video sums up my feelings nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv10_WvGxo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv10_WvGxo
    - rory 5y ago
      There is an ethical version of breeding that would be good for society though (and I imagine this exists to some extent outside the mainstream mainstream). E.g. if a breeder decides "I want a hypoallergenic dog between 40 and 50 pounds with a calm demeanor who is otherwise maximally healthy" instead of worrying about the the nitpicky specifics of their appearance, that would be a benefit for society. It's more the culture of dog breeding and showing than the concept that's harmful.
etempleton 5y ago
The idea of pure breeds is a relatively modern phenomenon and not a very good one. The number of people that I have heard talk about how they cannot "trust" a dog if they don't have papers is staggering. Every mutt I have ever had ended up being a great dog with a great personality and disposition with minimal training required. All lived into their teens with only minor health problems towards the end of life.
- anticensor 5y ago
  I am advancing this even further and going to call out creating pure breeds for no reason is an animal racism.
JadoJodo 5y ago
I've often wondered why breeders don't do more cross-breeding across areas. Travel time aside, I think it would be a good investment into what is literally a business. e.g. If I'm a Border Collie breeder in Nevada, I could meet up with another Border Collie breeder in Arizona or Idaho and do an "exchange". While this does water down the lines, as each breed is probably generally in the top-tier form of whatever they've been bred for the past X00 years, I think a little genetic diversity would go a long way to help with these issues. Perhaps I'm just naive and this is what happens already, but I feel like anytime that I've been on a dog breeder's website, it's just 5-10 males, 10-30 females, and their resulting litters.
- hycaria 5y ago
  This happens. Mostly buying fresh blood from overseas in my (European) experience. Like Maine coons from Russia, bull terriers from Australia … It’s more rare in the same country (where they could just buy sperm). Sometimes they just use a fellow breeders (and friend I suppose) male for a few litters.
- drakonka 5y ago
  I think the problem for now is more pronounced with dogs than cats, but I just checked my Maine Coon breeder's site. Out of their two current litters, only one is from one of their own cats; two are from other breeders in the same country, and one is from Holland. On their planned litter page, only two cats out of six are from their own lines. The rest are from other Swedish lines, Holland, and Italy. I think responsible breeders do already do this. I worry that as cat breeding progresses, standards will slip like they have with so many dog breeds. It's already started with some breeds.
SubiculumCode 5y ago
I like mutts. Healthier and more sane.
- CyberRabbi 5y ago
  Not if they are a mix of two inbred breeds. Good genes are what inherently matters not muttiness, which is just a lazy proxy for good genes.
  - smorgusofborg 5y ago
    That is not correct as typical remaining genetic problems are not successfully bred out since they are recessive. The mutt will almost always be healthier than it's parents as it is highly unlikely to have any recessive ailments of either line.
    - CyberRabbi 5y ago
      > The mutt will almost always be healthier than it's parents Two ugly parents will not produce good looking children, even if they are from disparate breeds. Good looking parents will produce good looking children, even if they are from the same breed. Muttiness does not create good genes.
      - smorgusofborg 5y ago
        Looks? Many people are conditioned to like the near death look of royalty through association with wealth and power. Does a defect in the observer's taste make the observed not bleed to death? Anemias such as sickle cell and malaria are the text book example. Having two parents from the same area means high frequency of them having the same gene. The same sickle cell anemia gene makes one quarter of their children fully anemic and leaves one quarter unprotected from malaria. One such parent makes half of children protected and half unprotected. Anyone can breed on the dominant traits of genes and talk about looks. Their results are defective because of recessive traits. Thus a first mutt with their line has much higher odds of being healthy even if it's other parent is also inbred. But two cross breeds from those same lines are going to be more likely to produce unhealthy offspring again when compared to fuller mutts.
AlbertCory 5y ago
I find these answers (mostly) refreshingly free of the Dog Rescue Nazis, who seem to troll anyone who mentions dogs in any context. Many of them operate "breed rescue groups." These groups are usually 501(c)(3) organizations and pay their chief officers a salary, which you can check on their IRS form 990. * <Rant warning> * These groups come to the public animal shelters at opening time and claim any dog of their preferred breed, before any of the public gets a chance at them. Or maybe the shelter staff calls them. The end result when I was looking for a dog was that the shelters have nothing but pit bulls and Chihuahuas, and the dogs that the public prefers are all marked "reserved" or just gone. You can go to these innumerable rescue groups and fill out their four-page questionnaire, which they all has their own version of, all almost exactly the same. Then they apply their own ideas about who should have a dog and who shouldn't. Maybe they send someone out to look at your house & yard. I met someone at the dog park who'd had dogs all their lives, and they were rejected because their backyard fence wasn't high enough. More likely, "your" dog isn't available anymore. There is a Survivor Bias happening in all these happy stories about the wonderful dog someone got from a rescue group. You never read about all the dogs with terrible behavior problems that got returned to the shelter; the ones whose personalities were irretrievably ruined by abuse in their puppyhood. So the question is: who appointed these people to be gatekeepers? And why are we all subsidizing their hobby? What did I do, by the way? I went to a Labrador breeder, who questioned me closely on my situation. The puppies are cared for a family with children, which gave them the socialization every puppy needs. And I know my dog's never had anything but love and kindness, something you definitely do not know with a rescue. * <Rant warning/> *
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  > The end result when I was looking for a dog was that the shelters have nothing but pit bulls and Chihuahuas, and the dogs that the public prefers are all marked "reserved" or just gone. This is so frustrating! I'm currently looking for a dog, and the shelters near me have a few special needs dogs, a few "lab mixes" or "shepherd mixes" that are obviously Staffordshire terriers that happened to get lucky by having long noses and slightly less boxy heads than the average 'mix', but they constantly have trucks of pit bulls and Chihuahuas arriving from Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi. Pre-COVID, I went to a pet expo and met a staggering number of these breed rescue groups. There are no Goldens at any shelters, but there's a golden rescue. No Weimaraners at any shelters, but there's a weim rescue. No dalmatians, but there's a dalmatian rescue. No greyhounds, but there's a greyhound rescue. No huskies, but there's a husky rescue. There are no pit bull rescues, I'm guessing because they'd be accused of operating a fighting ring, and if they tried to snap up every dog that matched their requirements they'd be inundated with ten thousand dogs. Those breeds don't need rescuing, they get snapped up from the shelters faster than I can hit "F5", probably because (as you said) shelter intake staff are calling the breed rescue groups before even listing the dogs. I don't think I'm a pitbull bigot, but I'd like an actual choice in adopting a dog, and I don't want to pay someone a thousand dollars for the privilege of 'rescuing' it. It's almost enough to push someone away from the shelters to buy from a backyard breeder...
cleandreams 5y ago
This is distressing but not surprising. What is aggravating is that sometimes this is not even unintentional. For cats, there is the Scottish Fold. The very thing that makes them considered cute is a painful disease. The perpetuation of this breed is really a comment on human... what? Vanity? Cruelty? It's disgusting. This from an Australian animal welfare group https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-are-the-health-problems-with-scottish-fold-cats/ https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-are-the-health-p... The Scottish Fold breed of cat is a very popular pet in the USA, due to its affectionate and gentle nature and distinctive appearance. These cats have flattened ears that fold forward and downward, sitting like a cap and giving the quaint look of an owl. This ear fold is the result of a natural genetic mutation first observed in a farm kitten in Scotland in 1961. The tightly folded ears do not appear to be any more prone to infections than those of cats with upright ears. However, this unique ear shape is caused by an underlying defect in the formation of cartilage, which would normally retain the ears in a normal shape. This inherited cartilage defect (also known as Scottish Fold disease, or Osteochondrodysplasia) causes other deformities throughout the body and is a dominant trait, meaning all kittens in the litter will be affected. The disease is evident on x-rays of cats from as young as 7 weeks of age. Serious abnormalities in joints and bone growth lead to arthritis (painful, swollen joints), short, abnormally thick and inflexible tails, spinal abnormalities and short, stiff legs. The welfare impacts are severe in terms of pain and inability to perform natural behaviours, as these cats can be lame, walk with an abnormal gait, can be reluctant to engage in normal movements such as walking or jumping, and can even become completely crippled. There is no cure for this progressive condition. Cats who develop arthritis need long term pain relief, which can have undesirable side effects, and dietary supplements to slow its development. In a small number of cases, surgery or radiotherapy has been effective in slowing the progression of the disease. Those with severe disease are often suffering immensely and require euthanasia, sometimes early in life. Due to the crippling deformities evident in this breed, it was excluded from the Cat Fancy of Great Britain as a recognised breed in 1974 and was also banned by the Fédération Internationale Féline. Breeders in the USA persisted...
bojangleslover 5y ago
Inbred is measurable with the coefficient of inbreeding. But to claim a dog is X% golden retriever requires you to define a single dog as THE "golden retriever", or the reference genome. Who gets to set the reference genome?
de_keyboard 5y ago
I find the idea of purposefully breeding dogs with short legs, stubby noses, etc. repulsive. Why do people do it? Wouldn't they prefer a pet without health issues?
olliej 5y ago
Despite the headline this is only talking about purebreds, not mutts, which actually make up the bulk of dogs
einarfd 5y ago
The Norwegian Society for Protection of Animals is actually bringing a case on bad breeding to the courts in Norway (https://www.dyrebeskyttelsen.no/2020/11/23/norway-to-decide-if-breeding-of-english-bulldogs-and-cavalier-king-charles-spaniels-violates-norwegian-law/ https://www.dyrebeskyttelsen.no/2020/11/23/norway-to-decide-...), its going to be interesting to see how that works out. If we are lucky, we might get some more sane dog breeding, and healthier dogs out of it.
quickthrowman 5y ago
Buying or breeding purebred dogs is morally wrong, a dog should not be forced to endure a miserable existence for aesthetic reasons. Pugs are some of the most unfortunate, they have issues with their eyeballs prolapsing and cannot breathe through their nose. All of it is disgusting, shame on anyone that breeds or owns purebreds. I’ll give a pass to breeders of actual working dogs, but show dogs are a crime against nature.
jonplackett 5y ago
Isn't this just something everyone has already know for ages?
alisonkisk 5y ago
That's literally the definition of the word inbred. "In breed".

133 points by rustoo 5y ago

m12k 5y ago

A good rule of thumb is that the more a dog looks like a wolf, the less inbred it is.

an9n 5y ago
Really? Alsatians have dreadful hip dysplasia, and look pretty wolfy.
- notyourwork 5y ago
  Most rules have exceptions and edge cases.

nyanpasu64 5y ago

Why not cross different dog breeds to increase total diversity instead of trying to protect what's left?

pibechorro 5y ago
Because people are disconnected from what matters in nature and self-centered. French pugs are at the top of breed popularity, facepalm. Inbred dogs for shallow purposes is a reflection on our species.
sliken 5y ago
That makes complete sense. However a well recognized scientist specializing in dog breeding gave a talk at a conference for a particular breed. They had done extensive genetic analysis of that breed and had some recommendations. Among other recommendations, they recommended mixing in a few animals from the European variant of that breed into the American breeding population. The crowd went quiet, all future talks/panels for the scientist were cancelled. They were uninvited from the conference. Sad that many breed enthusiasts and even the AKC (who sets the breed standards) are damaging the breeds they care so much about.
alistairSH 5y ago
Some people want a specific breed for generally aesthetic reasons. And some breeds exist almost exclusively for aesthetics (vs working and sporting breeds). Sadly, some working breeds have degenerated to the point they can barely work - GSDs with short rear legs and hip problems come to mind.
rubyist5eva 5y ago
Because capitalism. People want to buy “pure” dogs which causes this.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
zaroth 5y ago
I’m not personally a big fan of “purebreds”, but breed was important to me because I had small children and needed an extremely predictable and fairly easily obtained behavior profile. Specifically, I wanted a dope of a dog that was a living, breathing stuffed animal but with enough intelligence to be trained on the basics easily. So I bred my goldendoodle with a bernedoodle and got exactly what I was looking for! You do get more variation in the litters, which can be a double edged sword. For example, one of the pups ended up being shedding, where non-shedding was a desired and expected trait for me. Overall, breeding and getting to help deliver and raise a litter was one of the most fun & rewarding activities my family has ever done, and when we get holiday cards every year from all the families that got a pup with those dogs featured, it is just the best feeling.
- Geezus-42 5y ago
  Doodles already aren't purebred.
  - simplyaccont 5y ago
    try to explain it to proud owners of "standard Australian mini labradoodle" or something like this... they claim that it's a new pure breed
    - alistairSH 5y ago
      If you paid $4000 for a designer pooch, you'd make that claim too. ;)
      - simplyaccont 5y ago
        Yeah. I "manage" at work dog owners group in our collaboration system that has >500 people now. Amount of purebred doodles or poos is amazing. I wasn't even aware that those combinations are bred
goda90 5y ago
One of our dogs is from farmers who specifically bought a giant working breed from across the country to sire puppies with their other giant working breed dogs. The two breeds make a good mix, and it ensures some genetic diversity. They actually use dogs on the farm, so they have more of an interest in cultivating health and good temperament than designer looks like some breeders do.
newaccount2021 5y ago
there are many benefits to having a mutt the dumbest dogs I have ever owned were a very-pure viszla and a very-pure mastiff. between the two of them there could not have been ten working brain cells. now I have a mutt that has such diverse characteristics that it is confounding for dog experts to tell me what he is...he is also, by a mile, the smartest dog I have ever had I am convinced the purebred = dumb observation is not just an anecdote
TulliusCicero 5y ago
That happens too, there are quite a few ‘designer’ cross breeds, like labradoodle or cavapoo. Article: https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/pets/g3414/cutest-mixed-breed-dogs/ https://www.goodhousekeeping.com/life/pets/g3414/cutest-mixe...
quickthrowman 5y ago
Because you can’t get $2,000+ for a ‘mutt’ puppy

green-eclipse 5y ago

This is interesting, but not exactly news. Has been known for decades.

sliken 5y ago
Indeed, a major contributor is the AKC who rates breeds on arbitrary characteristics like shoulder height and color instead of overall fitness. So you end up with dogs with terrible hips, cancer, spine problems, breathing problems, etc but have the right color hair.
azemetre 5y ago
I do think it's news because some breeds suffer terribly at the end of their life, like golden retrieves typically getting cancer at 60% rates. [1] Would you get a golden retriever if you knew that at 7 years-old it's very likely to get a brain tumor? The same can be said for many breeds that suffer from breathing problems (pugs) or spinal issues (german shepherds) because someone decided that a german shepard should have a certain angle arc in its back because it was "visually" pleasing. It's honestly disgusting, the UK kennel club bares the majority of this suffering because they somehow declared themselves the defacto authority figure during the late 1880s. [1] https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-do-so-many-golden-retrievers-get-cancer-massive-study-hopes-to-find-out/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/why-do-so-many-golden-retriever...
- Frost1x 5y ago
  At some period of human history, breeding for some traits probably made sense, functionally. Dogs that could hunt well or track other animals for you all made sense in a survival situation. The mess we got into was when we started this whole selective genetic manipulation based on visual appearances and at the cost of their health. As pets, to me, it doesn't make a lot of sense to do all this nonsense selective breeding and inbreeding that perpetuates clear genetic issues that would resolve with a bit natural diversity. I never want to have a 'pure' bred dog both in principle against the idea and because more diversity means my pet has a better chance of moving away from bad generic traits or moving their pups into that direction (and a potentially longer, healthier life). My sibling owned a pug at one point when I was young and she was incredibly cute and sweet but at a cost to her health. Her facial wrinkle folds were prone to bacterial infection and had to be cleaned regularly, she suffered a lot of food allergies, had clear breathing problems, but fortunately didn't suffer from any sort of eye problems pugs are prone to. She ultimately died of cancer. I'll take rescue pets which are most often not selectively bred any day over encouraging the breeding nonsense. All of my rescue pets have lived long and healthy lives into old age with almost no issues, just by avoiding inbreeding for at least one level of lineage.

h2odragon 5y ago

Going on 30 years, I have had a pack of working hounds, usually from 4 to 12 strong. We have rural land surrounded by large plots of more rural land, 4,000 acres+ of tree farm and private hunting preserve, so our hounds are necessary for keeping coyotes and etc off livestock and other pets. In that time we've had many litters of puppies, usually trading them with neighbors to improve the local landrace and pass around some of the best traits. There's a steady input of "dumped purebeed" in the local mutts, they never survive long unless rescued. "Pure" breeds are useful in being controlled and defined parameters to breed from; hybrids are the best "working" dogs however. IMO. Our greatest successes have been with hunting hounds (bluetick coonhound or great danes) x "herding dogs" of some spread. The border collie x Bluetick cross produces some great dogs but there's a high proportion of psychopaths; expect 1:20 or so to be one of those puppies you just cant do anything with without insane effort. Bluetick x Catahoula are more mentally stable but likely to fall to the "merle on merle" cillia based health issues. (Digestive trouble and/or hearing issues) Great danes x collie were robust, intelligent, big dogs that avoided almost all the inhertibale issues of the parent lines; but that's a cross you don't want to undertake raising without significant time. They're as bright as a small child and they feel they need a job: furthermore if you're not the boss, they feel they have to be. Of 4 litters (all large, hounds are profligate) we got 2 willful and bright enough I'd call them "psycho pups". Bad news at that size and vitality. Great for a herd dog, but only if you don't care about having input into how the herd is run.

DizzyDoo 5y ago
Really interesting, thanks for posting. What do you practically do with the psychopath dogs/pups? Presumably the 'insane effort' required to keep them in line doesn't square well with all the other hard work your farm requires. Are you essentially forced to give the mentally unstable ones to a shelter?
- zoe4883 5y ago
  Not OP. Dogs are pack animals, so less bright are kept in order by pack. They are still usable for guarding, but can not be used for herding or hunting. "Psychopat" dogs have to be put down. Risk they attack something is too big. But they are rare.

todd8 5y ago

From the featured article: > The average inbreeding based on genetic analysis across 227 breeds was close to 25%, or the equivalent of sharing the same genetic material with a full sibling Full siblings would actual share approximately 50%.

zdw 5y ago
It's been a while since I took biology, but doesn't this depend on the genders of the siblings? Two male brothers have XY, and the Y would have to be shared with the father, and same with two sisters (X from father), but a brother and sister would get a minimum of 50% different as the X and Y from the father would be different?
- mbreese 5y ago
  In humans, y is so small as to be insignificant in these terms. ChrX is much larger. Also, the combination of the remaining chr1-22 are much larger than chrX by itself, so these numbers don’t factor in as much as you’d think. Rough scale example: XXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXXX YY
  - ErikVandeWater 5y ago
    Off topic, but I very much enjoy the creativity you used to explain the relative size of the chromosomes.

tharne 5y ago

I think this is one of those studies where you didn't really need to do a study.

psyc 5y ago
I feel the same about a great many studies, but normally would never say so here. What if people found out I was tainted in my epistemologies?
lallysingh 5y ago
It's useful to measure things even if we already know that they're common. Numbers tell a story that beliefs cannot.
wheybags 5y ago
New study shows most water is wet
- pilsetnieks 5y ago
  There is, however, a significant percentage of it in dry or gaseous form.
  - Sohcahtoa82 5y ago
    You got me thinking now... How many chemicals/materials have different names depending on their state of matter, versus just having an adjective prepended? When ice melts, it's called water. But when steel melts, it's just called molten steel.
gwern 5y ago
No, this is important. There are a lot of people who will tell you that 'selective breeding doesn't work and always backfires, because look how unhealthy some dog breeds are'. This study is part of the evidence-base showing that that is wrong: those dog breeds are unhealthy because they are incredibly inbred with effective population sizes so small you may be able to count them on two hands. The bulldogs will always be unhealthy to some degree because those faces are just not a good idea, but even there some bulldog breeds are far sicklier than others, and it's due to the inbreeding, and when you know that, you know how to improve them. This is important for stuff like agricultural breeding: the problems aren't inevitable, and are caused by specific mistakes, like starting with too few individuals, closing the studbook prematurely, and not outcrossing.

JoeAltmaier 5y ago

Kind of the definition of a 'dog breed'?

krona 5y ago

The UK kennel club allows you to calculate the inbreeding coefficient for either a registered (pedigree) dog or for future puppies of two potential mates: https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/inbreeding-co-efficient/ https://www.thekennelclub.org.uk/search/inbreeding-co-effici... This kind of information is used by responsible breeders and buyers, thus my dachshund has 0% inbreeding going back 5 generations.

mgarfias 5y ago
the problem with these calculations is that they're based on pedigree, not genetics. If you're only studying 3-5 generations of pedigree, the COI might look REALLY good, but the animal can still be a genetic mess because those 3-5 generations all had a common (or multiple common) ancestors in generations 6-7.
noselasd 5y ago
The point is though that most dog breeds are already too inbred . I.e. even if your particular dog isn't inbred according to some particular measure - the entire dog breed are already way too much inbred and have very little genetic diversite. Leading up to most dogs of that breed having multiple deficits. (I don't know if that applies to dachshounds though - in general it applies less to dog breeds used for utility)
topicseed 5y ago
I think some pure breeds, due to their slight inbreeding by design, are going through "inbreeding depression". Probably because some breeds just don't have that large of a gene pool to start with. [0] https://breedingbusiness.com/inbreeding-depression/ https://breedingbusiness.com/inbreeding-depression/

peteradio 5y ago

We have a cross between a purebred momma English Spring Spaniel and a purebred daddy Black Lab. They were an accidental happening and we got our boy for cheap. One of our friends got one of his sisters. The variety in those pups is pretty wild. The coloring is similar, black body with white tuxedo stripe along the belly. Our boy is nearly identical looking to the purebred flat coated retrievers we had growing up, he has soft long fur and fully webbed feet. His sister looks like a runt black lab with short coarse fur, our boy is twice her size in weight and stature. I love our mutt!

moralestapia 5y ago

Is there a pair of dog breeds who is so different from each other such that no offspring is possible between them?

pueblito 5y ago
Not at all. Domestic dogs, coyotes and wolves can all breed together.
- moralestapia 5y ago
  Nice! Thanks!
alistairSH 5y ago
Genetically, they should all be able to interbreed, also with wolves and coyotes. However, there are quite a few breeds that are known to have breeding and birthing problems. Some unable to properly mount each other and breed. Others with hips too small to properly birth and need close to 100% C-section delivery. I can imagine these problems could be exacerbated by attempts to breed with other larger breeds.
bitxbitxbitcoin 5y ago
Yes. The pairing would probably be a male from a bigger breed and a bulldog bitch as the latter often can’t give birth without a C section. So, sans technology, I can imagine there are at least a few pairs where offspring wouldn’t happen.
smt88 5y ago
I don't know if this counts, but a lot of bulldog-like dogs can't give live birth because they're so deformed and unnatural. They can only give birth by C-section.

whalesalad 5y ago

Wish people were more mindful of this in real life. All these dogs with short snouts have terrible problems breathing when they get older (and many when they are young). I will have GSD's from a working line for the rest of my life.

clusterhacks 5y ago
Totally agree re:short snout problems. I was shocked recently to see several pictures of short-nosed Rottweilers with what looks like a tendency to have noses that seem to be trending in pug-like direction. I mean, I hadn't really been keeping up with the breed, but I am curious what the heck people are thinking . . . OTOH, I may be done with working line shepherds for the rest of my life. But enjoy!

rubyist5eva 5y ago

I though this was common knowledge? This is why I prefer “mutts” myself.

helpfulmandrill 5y ago

Isn't that how you get a dog breed?

h2odragon 5y ago
Line breeding is almost necessary for trait stabilization, yes. Lots of culls. When the "breed standards" market values looks over anything else for 50yr+, you get... what we got now.

resters 5y ago

It's sort of strange that everyone thinks that an aggressive eugenics program for animals is completely normal and morally acceptable (just because it's been going on for a long time). In my opinion, purchasing a purebred pet is cringeworthy at best.

h2odragon 5y ago
Eugenics gave us much better cows, pigs and chickens. We've continued that to freakish levels in some instances. You morals are your own; mine are just fine with short lived chickens and $2/lb chicken breast. The angus and longhorn enthusiasts better police some of their nuts or they're gonna get the Aurochs back.
- pessimizer 5y ago
  The purpose of dog breeding isn't health or usefulness, it's to match a picture and description.
  - harpersealtako 5y ago
    Generalizations like this are kind of ridiculous, given the existence of hunting dogs, police dogs, herding dogs, livestock guardian dogs, and even many ordinary family/companionship dogs that are specifically bred to be docile, long-living pets.
kcb 5y ago
Dogs are not naturally occurring.

bArray 5y ago

This is well known. Sometimes people breed the grandfather with the bitch or even the father. I think 'Pedigree certificates' has a lot to answer for in this regard. It doesn't encourage any kind of genetic diversity and people are actively discouraged and punished for trying to introduce new blood into lines. Another group to blame are 'puppy farms', people who breed merely to make money and take no responsibility for the genetic mess they make. I have a family member that breeds dogs quite seriously - one of their goals is to reintroduce good health traits back into the (working) breeds and undo the awful effects of inbreeding. Sometimes this involves reading the breeders notes from over a hundred years ago and trying to reproduce the same result (it's not easy). Often it seems to be enough to introduce a few closely related healthy breeds and after three or so generations you can get back to something healthier and a good representative of that breed. There are a few breeds that are in desperate need of serious dedication - namely short-nose breeds (i.e. Pugs, British Bulldogs, etc). Pugs are by far the worse I've encountered in terms of physical health defects, a significant number of Pug puppies are culled early on due to spine defects of breathing issues. Those that end up getting sold are almost guaranteed to end up with breathing issues. One of the healthier dogs you can own tends to be a mid-sized Mutt (cross-breed). From annecdata, I've found that a Bulldog (typically strong working dogs, dumb but loyal) crossed with something smarter but mid-sized tends to yield good temperament, long-life dogs with average intelligence (which is a good thing [+]). [+] Generally you want your dog to be smart enough to read your queues and work around you, but not so smart that it's getting bored or trying to figure out how to escape.

thih9 5y ago
> not so smart that it's getting bored or trying to figure out how to escape. This could be understood as if the most intelligent dogs were always bored or trying to escape. To clarify: intelligent dogs do need more stimulation, this is very true. But as long as they get it, they're happy.
- a-saleh 5y ago
  I discussed this with my partner that takes her hobby of dog-training very seriously (like, we live with three dogs, and she sometimes does payed woroshops, e.t.c) that Border Colies are often considered to be the most intelligent dogs, but that might be mostly a side-product of breeding them to be eager to please. In theory many other breeds could be more intelligent, but border collie is the one most likely to be excited to learn how to be good at the tests we give the dogs.

323 5y ago

I vaguely remember reading that if you randomly bred dogs they slowly revert back to the "original" kind (strays). Is that true?

Frost1x 5y ago
Do you perhaps mean wolves by strays? If so,, I don't think that's how natural evolution works, otherwise humans might start looking like Homo erectus. The main distinction between an actual 'stray' dog and a domestic dog is environmental, being around humans and so on and less to do with genetics. If you let dogs breed freely they'd probably still clump into sets of similar genetic and physical traits based on time and location (and their prior genetics).
takk309 5y ago
That does bring up a good question, if one were to breed dogs at random from a very large pool of dogs, how many generations would it take to revert to a wolf-like dog? Of course some care would be needed to ensure the dogs were a compatible size, that is no St. Bernards crossed with corgis. For the sake of argument let's say 1,000 randomly selected medium (30 to 70 pounds) dogs as the initial pool and taking care to avoid inbreeding at least 5 generations back.
- gwern 5y ago
  Assuming no selection is involved, merely global mating completely at random where any dog could breed with any dog, they would never 'revert'. You would instead get a global average of current dogs, and then there would be a very wide bell curve around that mean, which would throw up lots of extremes at random. Genes are conserved, and get randomly distributed among offspring. It's like how red hair pops up in some families. The red hair gene never 'disappeared' or 'got averaged out', it just kept being passed on until it met another copy. Another example is interracial families: you might think that the kids would all 'look like' the average of the two parents, but sometimes one kid will look just like one parent even though they are biracial. (Apparently this can cause problems, like if a little blonde-haired blue-eyed girl is walking around with her dad from Africa.) On a historical note, this was a major issue for Darwin & Galton trying to come up with a statistical model of 'genes': the initial efforts of 'blending inheritance' predicted that everyone would quickly become the same height etc, which is both obviously not true (short parents can have tall kids and vice versa) and would mean evolution is impossible (no variation to select on!).

sktrdie 5y ago

What I find interesting is that dogs are way better adapt at living a “city life” or an “apartment life” than we ever will be (unless we start breeding for those traits ourselves). People think “ah dogs are animals and should live in nature and not in closed doors of a city apartment”. Nope, from a genetic point of view some dogs are way more naturally fit to live indoors (look at Maltese for instance who’s bread to be a lap dog). I also wonder: doesn’t the genetic diversity between different breeds help account with defeating illness? What I mean is that if some sort of disease pops up it might kill a % of breeds, but another % might survive because, well, they’re a different breed with a trait that helped defeat that disease. Us humans on the other hand have stopped evolving and are quite genetically the same (much more similar than dogs). So from that perspective I wonder whether a disease would be much more dangerous for us & whether actual breeding might be good overall for their species. Of course inbreeding is a separate issue that hurts the life of the individual. But our apparent need to want different kind of dogs might actually end up saving their species in a doomsday scenario.

dfsegoat 5y ago
> What I find interesting is that dogs are way better adapt at living a “city life” or an “apartment life” This is certainly not the case with some of the herding / working dog breeds (GSD, Malinois etc) - it is borderline cruel keeping them in an apartment in some cases, and dangerous in others. I lived with a presa canario for a year in an apartment (roommates dog) - it was not a good situation for the dog or anyone else. After I moved out, I learned the dog attacked someone and was euthanized.
- sktrdie 5y ago
  Certainly makes sense we also breed in the opposite direction. Where they are better fit to be outdoors. Still I would argue dogs have a certain adaptation to living indoors that was bread into them artificially rather than naturally. Herd dogs still relied on the food/shelter from the owner.
- notyourwork 5y ago
  > This is certainly not the case with some of the herding / working dog breeds (GSD, Malinois etc) - it is borderline cruel keeping them in an apartment in some cases, and dangerous in others. 100%, I live in a city high rise. I see too many anxious dogs in that category that are "toys" to the owner and do not get sufficient exercise and mental stimulation. I love the beligan malinois breed but realize I have a lifestyle today that prevents me from owning one. Its similar to fish and aquarium sizes in many ways.

ethbr0 5y ago

Side note: you can get a pretty robust genetic panels (health + breed) for dogs for about $150 now. We did it recently on two of our pups (both mutts), and it was neat seeing the various possible lineages. Our tiny terrier / beagle mix came back with >10% Chow & Siberian Husky. Never would have guessed that! https://embarkvet.com/ https://embarkvet.com/

tata71 5y ago
Time to do this would be before you acquired the dog, no?
- ethbr0 5y ago
  Well, if you're adopting from a shelter, chances are the genetics are pretty varied.

NDizzle 5y ago

Hopefully less inbreeding is one of the positive outcomes of the current "designer mutt" fad. I was thinking about this the other day actually...

latchkey 5y ago
This should be the top comment. I don't fault people who do get designer dogs, but I just got a "covid rescue" dog... a 5 year old something or another and given all the amazing dogs that need happy homes, I can't imagine buying a specially bred dog.

jqpabc123 5y ago

A lot of dog "breeds" are basically just genetic deformities being perpetuated through in-breeding. For example, some French bulldogs have a face that is so deformed it can barely eat or breathe. Some people think such deformed animals look "cute" but various Kennel Clubs are starting to penalize them in dog shows.

hn_throwaway_99 5y ago
This image of 2 French bulldogs, one a winning show dog and the other the attempt to make a healthier breed, has made the rounds and it really shows the scope of the problem: https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/oaw4v8/the_dog_on_the_left_is_award_winning_showdog/ https://www.reddit.com/r/interestingasfuck/comments/oaw4v8/t...
TulliusCicero 5y ago
It’s pretty gross. It’s animal abuse at that point, breeding in a way that you know causes the animal great suffering.

tonystubblebine 5y ago

I resent the idea of some third party organization setting the standard for whether my dogs are an official breed or not. So I've been making up breeds whenever people ask. My current dog, Eloise, is fairly obviously a mutt with a lot of St. Bernard and a lot of Great Pyrenees. So when people ask I say, "Oh, she's a new breed that people are calling St. Pyrenees. Her ancestors included some Great Pyrenees and some St. Bernard" By people I mean me.

an1sotropy 5y ago
This is a great! We have a rescue dog picked off the streets of Stewart, FL (near West Palm Beach), so I say "oh he's a West Palm Beach Itinerant". People who take breeds seriously get confused, everyone else has a laugh.

bigmattystyles 5y ago

Isn’t there a known phenomenon where a species has been inbreeding for so long that they’ve selected out defects caused by inbreeding via natural selection? I thought I had heard that about lab mice, but I can’t find info about it.

gwern 5y ago
Yes, that's actually referenced in the Discussion of the paper if you want to look at a mouse textbook. But while that can happen, it obviously has not in dogs given their results. It'd be nice if it had, but it didn't. (I'm not sure why: perhaps lab mice have gone through far more generations, with much more stringent selection on overall health, and that is how much it takes to purge all the exposed bad recessives etc?)

otabdeveloper4 5y ago

"Studies show water is wet".

dlkf 5y ago

You're saying my basset hound is inbred? I don't buy it.

f6v 5y ago

Dog breeding is mostly a net-negative for the society. Kind of like jewelry and luxury cars.

bluedevil2k 5y ago
What a negative and downright wrong thing to say. Dog owners are happier and healthier than non-dog owners. https://time.com/collection/guide-to-happiness/4870796/dog-owners-benefits/ https://time.com/collection/guide-to-happiness/4870796/dog-o...
- slothtrop 5y ago
  What does that have to do with dog breeding? Add to the fact, there's more than one way to be healthier and happier.
  - kcb 5y ago
    I'm not sure if this was the point he was trying to make but dog breeding is why dogs exist.
- hairofadog 5y ago
  I'm not the person you're replying to, but: I love dogs, I have a dog, and I think dog breeding is a net evil. I wish it would stop. Edit: While it's admittedly over-the-top snarky, this video sums up my feelings nicely: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv10_WvGxo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aCv10_WvGxo
  - rory 5y ago
    There is an ethical version of breeding that would be good for society though (and I imagine this exists to some extent outside the mainstream mainstream). E.g. if a breeder decides "I want a hypoallergenic dog between 40 and 50 pounds with a calm demeanor who is otherwise maximally healthy" instead of worrying about the the nitpicky specifics of their appearance, that would be a benefit for society. It's more the culture of dog breeding and showing than the concept that's harmful.

etempleton 5y ago

The idea of pure breeds is a relatively modern phenomenon and not a very good one. The number of people that I have heard talk about how they cannot "trust" a dog if they don't have papers is staggering. Every mutt I have ever had ended up being a great dog with a great personality and disposition with minimal training required. All lived into their teens with only minor health problems towards the end of life.

anticensor 5y ago
I am advancing this even further and going to call out creating pure breeds for no reason is an animal racism.

JadoJodo 5y ago

I've often wondered why breeders don't do more cross-breeding across areas. Travel time aside, I think it would be a good investment into what is literally a business. e.g. If I'm a Border Collie breeder in Nevada, I could meet up with another Border Collie breeder in Arizona or Idaho and do an "exchange". While this does water down the lines, as each breed is probably generally in the top-tier form of whatever they've been bred for the past X00 years, I think a little genetic diversity would go a long way to help with these issues. Perhaps I'm just naive and this is what happens already, but I feel like anytime that I've been on a dog breeder's website, it's just 5-10 males, 10-30 females, and their resulting litters.

hycaria 5y ago
This happens. Mostly buying fresh blood from overseas in my (European) experience. Like Maine coons from Russia, bull terriers from Australia … It’s more rare in the same country (where they could just buy sperm). Sometimes they just use a fellow breeders (and friend I suppose) male for a few litters.
drakonka 5y ago
I think the problem for now is more pronounced with dogs than cats, but I just checked my Maine Coon breeder's site. Out of their two current litters, only one is from one of their own cats; two are from other breeders in the same country, and one is from Holland. On their planned litter page, only two cats out of six are from their own lines. The rest are from other Swedish lines, Holland, and Italy. I think responsible breeders do already do this. I worry that as cat breeding progresses, standards will slip like they have with so many dog breeds. It's already started with some breeds.

SubiculumCode 5y ago

I like mutts. Healthier and more sane.

CyberRabbi 5y ago
Not if they are a mix of two inbred breeds. Good genes are what inherently matters not muttiness, which is just a lazy proxy for good genes.
- smorgusofborg 5y ago
  That is not correct as typical remaining genetic problems are not successfully bred out since they are recessive. The mutt will almost always be healthier than it's parents as it is highly unlikely to have any recessive ailments of either line.
  - CyberRabbi 5y ago
    > The mutt will almost always be healthier than it's parents Two ugly parents will not produce good looking children, even if they are from disparate breeds. Good looking parents will produce good looking children, even if they are from the same breed. Muttiness does not create good genes.
    - smorgusofborg 5y ago
      Looks? Many people are conditioned to like the near death look of royalty through association with wealth and power. Does a defect in the observer's taste make the observed not bleed to death? Anemias such as sickle cell and malaria are the text book example. Having two parents from the same area means high frequency of them having the same gene. The same sickle cell anemia gene makes one quarter of their children fully anemic and leaves one quarter unprotected from malaria. One such parent makes half of children protected and half unprotected. Anyone can breed on the dominant traits of genes and talk about looks. Their results are defective because of recessive traits. Thus a first mutt with their line has much higher odds of being healthy even if it's other parent is also inbred. But two cross breeds from those same lines are going to be more likely to produce unhealthy offspring again when compared to fuller mutts.

AlbertCory 5y ago

I find these answers (mostly) refreshingly free of the Dog Rescue Nazis, who seem to troll anyone who mentions dogs in any context. Many of them operate "breed rescue groups." These groups are usually 501(c)(3) organizations and pay their chief officers a salary, which you can check on their IRS form 990. * <Rant warning> * These groups come to the public animal shelters at opening time and claim any dog of their preferred breed, before any of the public gets a chance at them. Or maybe the shelter staff calls them. The end result when I was looking for a dog was that the shelters have nothing but pit bulls and Chihuahuas, and the dogs that the public prefers are all marked "reserved" or just gone. You can go to these innumerable rescue groups and fill out their four-page questionnaire, which they all has their own version of, all almost exactly the same. Then they apply their own ideas about who should have a dog and who shouldn't. Maybe they send someone out to look at your house & yard. I met someone at the dog park who'd had dogs all their lives, and they were rejected because their backyard fence wasn't high enough. More likely, "your" dog isn't available anymore. There is a Survivor Bias happening in all these happy stories about the wonderful dog someone got from a rescue group. You never read about all the dogs with terrible behavior problems that got returned to the shelter; the ones whose personalities were irretrievably ruined by abuse in their puppyhood. So the question is: who appointed these people to be gatekeepers? And why are we all subsidizing their hobby? What did I do, by the way? I went to a Labrador breeder, who questioned me closely on my situation. The puppies are cared for a family with children, which gave them the socialization every puppy needs. And I know my dog's never had anything but love and kindness, something you definitely do not know with a rescue. * <Rant warning/> *

LeifCarrotson 5y ago
> The end result when I was looking for a dog was that the shelters have nothing but pit bulls and Chihuahuas, and the dogs that the public prefers are all marked "reserved" or just gone. This is so frustrating! I'm currently looking for a dog, and the shelters near me have a few special needs dogs, a few "lab mixes" or "shepherd mixes" that are obviously Staffordshire terriers that happened to get lucky by having long noses and slightly less boxy heads than the average 'mix', but they constantly have trucks of pit bulls and Chihuahuas arriving from Texas and Louisiana and Mississippi. Pre-COVID, I went to a pet expo and met a staggering number of these breed rescue groups. There are no Goldens at any shelters, but there's a golden rescue. No Weimaraners at any shelters, but there's a weim rescue. No dalmatians, but there's a dalmatian rescue. No greyhounds, but there's a greyhound rescue. No huskies, but there's a husky rescue. There are no pit bull rescues, I'm guessing because they'd be accused of operating a fighting ring, and if they tried to snap up every dog that matched their requirements they'd be inundated with ten thousand dogs. Those breeds don't need rescuing, they get snapped up from the shelters faster than I can hit "F5", probably because (as you said) shelter intake staff are calling the breed rescue groups before even listing the dogs. I don't think I'm a pitbull bigot, but I'd like an actual choice in adopting a dog, and I don't want to pay someone a thousand dollars for the privilege of 'rescuing' it. It's almost enough to push someone away from the shelters to buy from a backyard breeder...

cleandreams 5y ago

This is distressing but not surprising. What is aggravating is that sometimes this is not even unintentional. For cats, there is the Scottish Fold. The very thing that makes them considered cute is a painful disease. The perpetuation of this breed is really a comment on human... what? Vanity? Cruelty? It's disgusting. This from an Australian animal welfare group https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-are-the-health-problems-with-scottish-fold-cats/ https://kb.rspca.org.au/knowledge-base/what-are-the-health-p... The Scottish Fold breed of cat is a very popular pet in the USA, due to its affectionate and gentle nature and distinctive appearance. These cats have flattened ears that fold forward and downward, sitting like a cap and giving the quaint look of an owl. This ear fold is the result of a natural genetic mutation first observed in a farm kitten in Scotland in 1961. The tightly folded ears do not appear to be any more prone to infections than those of cats with upright ears. However, this unique ear shape is caused by an underlying defect in the formation of cartilage, which would normally retain the ears in a normal shape. This inherited cartilage defect (also known as Scottish Fold disease, or Osteochondrodysplasia) causes other deformities throughout the body and is a dominant trait, meaning all kittens in the litter will be affected. The disease is evident on x-rays of cats from as young as 7 weeks of age. Serious abnormalities in joints and bone growth lead to arthritis (painful, swollen joints), short, abnormally thick and inflexible tails, spinal abnormalities and short, stiff legs. The welfare impacts are severe in terms of pain and inability to perform natural behaviours, as these cats can be lame, walk with an abnormal gait, can be reluctant to engage in normal movements such as walking or jumping, and can even become completely crippled. There is no cure for this progressive condition. Cats who develop arthritis need long term pain relief, which can have undesirable side effects, and dietary supplements to slow its development. In a small number of cases, surgery or radiotherapy has been effective in slowing the progression of the disease. Those with severe disease are often suffering immensely and require euthanasia, sometimes early in life. Due to the crippling deformities evident in this breed, it was excluded from the Cat Fancy of Great Britain as a recognised breed in 1974 and was also banned by the Fédération Internationale Féline. Breeders in the USA persisted...

bojangleslover 5y ago

Inbred is measurable with the coefficient of inbreeding. But to claim a dog is X% golden retriever requires you to define a single dog as THE "golden retriever", or the reference genome. Who gets to set the reference genome?

de_keyboard 5y ago

I find the idea of purposefully breeding dogs with short legs, stubby noses, etc. repulsive. Why do people do it? Wouldn't they prefer a pet without health issues?

olliej 5y ago

Despite the headline this is only talking about purebreds, not mutts, which actually make up the bulk of dogs

einarfd 5y ago

The Norwegian Society for Protection of Animals is actually bringing a case on bad breeding to the courts in Norway (https://www.dyrebeskyttelsen.no/2020/11/23/norway-to-decide-if-breeding-of-english-bulldogs-and-cavalier-king-charles-spaniels-violates-norwegian-law/ https://www.dyrebeskyttelsen.no/2020/11/23/norway-to-decide-...), its going to be interesting to see how that works out. If we are lucky, we might get some more sane dog breeding, and healthier dogs out of it.

quickthrowman 5y ago

Buying or breeding purebred dogs is morally wrong, a dog should not be forced to endure a miserable existence for aesthetic reasons. Pugs are some of the most unfortunate, they have issues with their eyeballs prolapsing and cannot breathe through their nose. All of it is disgusting, shame on anyone that breeds or owns purebreds. I’ll give a pass to breeders of actual working dogs, but show dogs are a crime against nature.

jonplackett 5y ago

Isn't this just something everyone has already know for ages?

alisonkisk 5y ago

That's literally the definition of the word inbred. "In breed".