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What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of l

• wsc981 5y ago
  I don't know why you are voted down. This is very much true for The Netherlands as well. Ever since the year 2000, possibly before, ICU beds have been scaled down. Diederik Grommers, one member of the Dutch Outbreak Management Team (OMG) states: "it doesn't matter if you're vaccinated or not; 60% of the beds are occupied by vaccinated people; the problems we will encounter in the coming weeks are caused by the fact that we totally hollowed out our health care" [0]. The Netherlands has about 6 ICU beds per 100.000 citizens. Germany has almost 30 ICU beds per 100.000 citizens [1]. Now I know Germany did accept patients from The Netherlands on their ICUs and perhaps Germany is doing the same for other countries, so perhaps that is causing a capacity problem in Germany as well. --- [0]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFg78PgDgu0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yFg78PgDgu0 [1]: https://cdn.nos.nl/image/2020/03/30/640384/3840x2160a.jpg https://cdn.nos.nl/image/2020/03/30/640384/3840x2160a.jpg
  • nzk 5y ago
    Thanks, that was an interesting video. I had to rely on auto-translated subtitles but from the little Dutch I can understand, it seems like they got the gist across. Yeah, Germany has a ton of ICU beds in comparison, and yet, we're struggling exactly the same as any other country. I find it strange, too. In early 2020 I expected we'd see big differences between different countries based on ICU capacity, but we saw the same story everywhere (regional overload around the peak of a wave), with a few minor differences (whether some patients are transferred within the country or to other countries). Perhaps countries have different standards for when they put patients in ICU's, allowing hospitals (and governments) to always operate close to capacity? Would be one explanation, but I really don't know. High total number notwithstanding though, our ICU capacity actually decreased during the pandemic, see: https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihen https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihen The graph under "Gesamtzahl gemeldeter Intensivbetten" shows total capacity (light blue) + emergency reserve (green), dark blue is occupied beds. There was a pretty sharp drop-off in the total capacity a year ago, and a slower decrease all throughout 2021. Apparently, that's mostly due to nurses quitting in droves since the pandemic made their already bad working conditions even worse. Our politicians didn't lift a finger to prevent or revert this, and now they're blaming a minority for this massive, massive failure. Just makes me really angry, I'll take downvotes for that if I have to :)
    • wsc981 5y ago
      > Perhaps countries have different standards for when they put patients in ICU's, allowing hospitals (and governments) to always operate close to capacity? Would be one explanation, but I really don't know. There's different standards in different countries for sure. In The Netherlands there's a focus on quality of life. If a patient cannot have a decent quality of life after staying on ICU, there's a preference to provide the patient with palliative care instead. In (e.g.) Italy this approach would not be accepted.
    • i_don_t_know 5y ago
      The number of ICU beds may have been inflated. At the start of the pandemic, hospitals had to report available ICU beds, and they received money for the number of beds they reported. I know of two hospitals that reported all of their beds (the physical objects) when the intention of the law / regulation was to have only those beds reported that could be operated / staffed.
• skyde 5y ago
  USA is probably the country with the highest cost for an hospital visit. I am sure the hospital are able to afford hiring more staff :)
• joshuamorton 5y ago
  Germany has "only a few thousand" ICU beds (and while this nber has trended downward over time, it was never more than 10,000). It's misleading to not phrase this as a percentage, which is something like a sudden 50%+ spike in need for ICU capacity. Of course that will overwhelm the system. (Also paradoxically, an improved healthcare system should need fewer ICU beds, so the decrease is probably a good thing)
• _moof 5y ago
  Thanks for the insight. I'm curious; is the problem staffing, "beds" (which I assume means actual physical beds, or is this a term of art?), or a combination? Also curious how one squares the resource constraint issue with the exceptional nature of the events of the past couple years. What I mean is, did anyone think it made sense to massively increase capacity before the pandemic began? I'm not in health care so I don't have any special insight here; i.e. I'm asking, not challenging. From an outsider's perspective it seems like it would've been a tough sell to advocate for what was, in the "before times," an unnecessary increase in capacity.
  • fileeditview 5y ago
    It's staffing. See my other comment. Germany lost > 4000 ICU beds during the past year.
    • arrrg 5y ago
      Could you source that claim? I’m comparing the numbers from the DIVI registry: 2020-12-02: https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/7522 https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/7522 2021-12-02: https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/9047 https://edoc.rki.de/handle/176904/9047 I’m getting 24,949 beds for today, 27,543 as the year ago number (in both cases including a couple thousand ICU beds for kids which were later split out in the more current DIVI reports since ICU beds for kids aren’t helpful for this pandemic). That’s a difference of 2,594. Also, as the DIVI themselves explain: “Consequently, several factors play a role in influencing the number of beds that can be operated. A deliberate reduction of beds during the pandemic cannot be assumed. The reduction in available beds can be explained by the various points mentioned above, among others, and is supported by other data collected. The decisive factor for the operability of a bed is the medical staff.” This is under a FAQ entry where they list five different reasons for the reduction in capacity: https://www.intensivregister.de/#/faq/18af7107-e098-43e7-a9f6-723b167559ba https://www.intensivregister.de/#/faq/18af7107-e098-43e7-a9f... Staff themselves being affected by COVID-19 and becoming unable to work is just one of them. The others are changes in how much staff is allocated per patient (this was increased), hospitals being more precise in their reporting and only reporting beds that can actually be staffed, changes in the criteria for a bed to be actually countable and the high effort ICU therapy of COVID-19 patients requires.
• bellyfullofbac 5y ago
  Analog phone networks break down (you get no dialtone) if everyone in the service area picked up their handset and want to dial-out, they have much fewer lines than handsets, because they calculated what capacity they might need (how many calls would be ongoing at one time) and just have that many lines, plus maybe a safety margin. I'm guessing it's the same with ICU beds... And now we have a situation where a high percentage of people have picked up their handsets...
  • krater23 5y ago
    Yes, but do you really think we should manage our health system like a windy cell phone network provider? By the way, the cell phone networks and internet connections in Germany are on the level of some 3rd world countries.
    • account42 5y ago
      > By the way, the cell phone networks and internet connections in Germany are on the level of some 3rd world countries. There is no need to insult 3rd world countries like this.
• fileeditview 5y ago
  So true and not mentioned enough by the media. The fact that we lost more than 4000 ICU beds over last year (during the Corona pandemic!!) because of personnel shortage is mind-boggling. Instead of rewarding those who worked these horrible jobs and maybe attract new workers with better conditions (e.g. more holidays), better pay or tax reduction, our politicians did campaigning and ignored the upcoming winter. Now they blame it on the unvaccinated and want to force high-speed vaccinating as many people as possible. But it won't help now. And it won't work either because they also messed up the whole vaccine supply chain. I have long lost all hope in politicians. 99% of them are ridiculous creatures without a spine and only interested in their own progress.
  • pintxo 5y ago
    > I have long lost all hope in politicians. 99% of them are ridiculous creatures without a spine and only interested in their own progress. I posit that any sane and intelligent person would choose NOT to go into politics. Because of the system we as society have created around the job.
  • _moof 5y ago
    I might be working from old info here but my understanding is that vaccination reduces the ICU burden. Assuming that's still good info, is it totally unreasonable to blame the unvaccinated for ICU overload?
    • throwntoday 5y ago
      Yes because no effort was made to increase ICU capacity which was continues to be the biggest issue
      • fabian2k 5y ago
        No, that isn't the biggest issue. The ICU is the last resort, it's the point where we throw incredible amounts of effort and hardware at the problem to gain a chance of still saving them. And even then 50% still die, and others likely will have permanent damage from the severe course of the disease. The biggest issue is that not enough people got vaccinated.
• fabian2k 5y ago
  Something like 50% of the people in intensive care for COVID still die. Even if we were able to handle the load on the healthcare system, that still would be a very large amount of unnecessary suffering and death. And even though there are some fundamental issues with working conditions and pay in this area, fixing them would not be enough to be able to handle the load that an exponentially growing viral disease could cause if it remains unchecked. If you do not stop the exponential spread, even with twice the capacity you'd only gain another 1-2 weeks until you're at capacity anyway. The vaccines work well and are safe. The problem is that too many people didn't take them. There's plenty of problems with how this was organized in Germany, but in the we simply didn't manage to convince enough people to get vaccinated.
  • gizmo 5y ago
    The problem isn’t simple and certainly not a matter of just vaccinating. A big part of the problem is that govt was confident that two jabs in the summer would be sufficient because of two faulty assumptions: that immunity would last and that fully vaccinated people would not spread covid.
    • crooked-v 5y ago
      Also, more broadly, that people would actually be willing to get vaccinated at a rate high enough to reduce the R-value below 1.
      • tremon 5y ago
        The vaccines were never proven to reduce virus spread, were they? I mean, the clinical trials were about reducing susceptibility, not infectivity. I don't think there were any numbers available on the vaccine's effect on virus transmissibility. It was implicitly assumed that fewer symptoms would translate to fewer transmissions, but was this ever proven? Point being, we didn't know what vaccination rate would reduce the R-value below 1, and FAFAIK we still don't know. Not even for the original Sars-cov-2 virus, and not for any of the variants.
• poorjohnmacafee 5y ago
  Very insightful but doubtful more capacity would prevent the mandates, given that state medias around the West are all now calling for mandates, two tiers, and punishment for those who don't follow. Like the next round of "war on terror" measures where states get to shift their citizen management. Don't forget to call a spade a spade.
• sleepysysadmin 5y ago
  >What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. So I'm kind of surprised to see this. I was under the impression Germany was the opposite. https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/hospital-beds https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/hospital-beds Germany is #2 out of those reporting. Crushing Canada by like 300%. https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/medical-doctors https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/medical-doctors Germany #1 for doctors, beating Canada by 100% https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/nurses https://tradingeconomics.com/country-list/nurses Germany #2 for nurses, beating Canada by ~75% I kind of step back, how terrible is Canada doing? >The staffing problems in hospitals (and nursing homes) have existed much longer than Covid. I heard a lot about them myself when I did my FSJ (volunteer work) back in 2004, and it's only gotten worse since then. Oh ya big time. I can't remember a time when nurses/psws/doctors weren't in huge demand here in Canada. Before covid: https://www.blogto.com/city/2019/07/toronto-hospital-fraud/ https://www.blogto.com/city/2019/07/toronto-hospital-fraud/ During covid pre-vax: https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-hospital-lays-off-97-registered-nurses-amid-pandemic-citing-financial-challenge-1.5117270 https://toronto.ctvnews.ca/ontario-hospital-lays-off-97-regi... Antivaxxers fired: https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/11/28/were-on-the-brink-of-collapse-what-eight-ontario-nurses-have-to-say-on-the-state-of-a-profession-in-crisis.html https://www.thestar.com/news/gta/2021/11/28/were-on-the-brin... You can't be on one side in huge demand for nurses but also be firing them willy nilly. Firing them for not getting the vaccine isn't true at all. They've been reducing nurses and such for long before. >Our government is in full CYA mode, and doing everything they can to blame a scapegoat for problems they themselves have willingly created over decades. It's despicable, and nobody should support it. I propose that Canada and Germany probably have the same problem. That we are on the same page. I am curious what you think is that problem?
  • dmix 5y ago
    > Furthermore Bill 124, introduced in 2019, disincentivizes nurses by limiting wage increases. Many nurses have said repealing the bill would go a long way in retaining nurses. Others say removing barriers for internationally educated nurses would help fill in gaps. Wow, why is there the wage cap when nursing has long been an issue in Ontario? I wonder who thinks this stuff up and thinks they are somehow saving money by doing this. It just generates inefficiencies and unintended side effects. Whenever there's problems like this there's always seems to be a long trail of government interference that's counterproductive.
• fsh 5y ago
  This is such a bizarre take. If the ICUs are filling up, the solution should be to prevent people from getting sick, not to make the ICUs bigger. There are undoubtedly many problems in the German healthcare system, but the current surge is clearly due to the very large number of unvaccinated people.
  • spookthesunset 5y ago
    the two weeks were to build up health care capacity. We erected field hospitals to manage the sick and then closed them because they weren’t being used. If this truly is an energy and hospitals truly are at risk, find a way to build more capacity even if it is temporary. Blaming the public for the failure to do this is wrong. And if you aren’t building this capacity… maybe this really isn’t an emergency?
    • rytcio 5y ago
      But if we do that then the media doesn't have a scare tactic
    • Klemotio 5y ago
      You understand what exponential growth is? Yes? No? You know that is hard to get people? You know how long it takes to teach someone? Especially while a pandemic is ongoing?
  • switch007 5y ago
    > the solution should be to prevent people from getting sick, not to make the ICUs bigger. Why not both?
• arrrg 5y ago
  No country in the world has the capacity to take care of more than “a couple thousand” ICU patients (well, it’s more like a couple of ten thousand ICU patients for the best equipped and richest large countries in the world, like Germany). Simply because “a couple thousand” is all that’s needed during ordinary times. Yeah, there are issues with staffing and inadequate payment of the staff, sure, and those problems are long-standing and unresolved, but even if they were solved that wouldn’t be much of a help. We would then maybe talk about a couple thousand (here in the literal sense) beds in terms of increasing ICU capacity, if that (simply because it’s not as though Germany’s existing ICU capacity is somehow ridiculously small, it’s quite large, actually if you put it in context and adding a couple thousand beds would be a massive increase). That would be helpful but wouldn’t really solve the underlying problem. And either way: Increasing ICU capacity right now is not a solution. It’s completely misguided. Not least of which because it takes forever to increase capacity. You have to train people for that … Unvaccinated people are to blame for this, but especially cowardly politicians who were too frightened to start implementing vaccination mandates right away (summer 2021), as soon as it was clear that you cannot reach good enough vaccination numbers just based on pleas alone. We do have a solution for this and the solution is vaccination. However, in the very short term even that won’t be good enough, we need to break the 4th wave and for that contact reduction is necessary (and already happening). Think about time frames. Contact reduction, will show its effects within a couple weeks, vaccination mandates plus a logistical push for booster vaccinations, will show their effects within one month to three months, making healthcare more resilient in general, will show its effects within a couple of years, maybe a decade.
  • mandmandam 5y ago
    > Unvaccinated people are to blame for this This satirical article from Ireland is probably applicable in every Western country that has had its health system systematically hollowed out by cynical neoliberal fuckheads: https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2021/11/19/unvaccinated-behind-all-hse-failures-finds-government-report/ https://waterfordwhispersnews.com/2021/11/19/unvaccinated-be... > Increasing ICU capacity right now is not a solution. It's completely misguided What you fail to understand is that the people who cut those bed numbers across Europe are responsible for far more death than a small percent of mRNA vaccine hesitant people. And they're fucking delighted that so many people are so misdirected.
• j0057 5y ago
  The same is said in the Netherlands, but if you double the number of available IC beds, with associated staff (good luck with that), all you've bought yourself is two weeks before those are full as well – because of exponential growth.
  • nzk 5y ago
    Growth isn't exponential forever, cases appear to be going down again in Germany already. Delta waves seem to be only about 8 weeks long (check data from different countries, or here: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/briefing/delta-peak-covid-caseload.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/09/01/briefing/delta-peak-covid...), so two extra weeks would help a lot. I agree that vaccines are part of the solution. I disagree that stripping citizens of their rights and insulting them on TV is part of literally any solution for anything. If a government feels the urge to do that, it should look for alternatives instead. Maintaining ICU capacity from one year before (decreased by 4000 in 2021, see: https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihenhttps://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihen https://www.intensivregister.de/#/aktuelle-lage/zeitreihenht... - "Gesamtzahl gemeldeter Intensivbetten"), is the lowest-hanging fruit, I'm sure there are additional alternatives that I'm not qualified to comment on. Edit: It was pointed out to me that the DIVI numbers have some complexity that I did not account for. So grain of salt on the actual ICU number, but I've not yet seen anyone deny the trend. Here's a fact check that confirms that beds were lost: https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/11/17/divi-praesident-zitat-zu-4-000-intensivbetten-ist-verkuerzt-und-falsch-interpretiert/ https://correctiv.org/faktencheck/2021/11/17/divi-praesident...
    • lgreiv 5y ago
      I’ll not take a stance on the correct number of free ICU beds as I do not feel qualified to judge these numbers without more insight on the intricacies of what would qualify fully operational beds, but regarding the stalling case numbers I feel confident enough (after looking at some raw numbers from the municipalities themselves [1]) to dismiss the apparent trend as a statistic artifact. PCR test units and hospital bureaucracy are past their limits - e.g. regions like Bonn, Essen or Recklinghausen reporting zero cases on multiple consecutive days (Nov 29, Nov 30), which is _very_ unlikely w.r.t. the case numbers of the surrounding regions and those very regions reporting more than one hundred cases today. The published indicators do not count cases that are reported late [2], which leads to apparently stalling case numbers. Growths may not be exponential forever but given that roughly one quarter of the population is not vaccinated, I would not take bets that the virus runs out of hosts before the health care system collapses. I agree to the sentiment made that the balance between economic efficiency and damaging austerity for profit margin gains in the German health care system (especially for worker’s loans) has been tipping way too far to the latter in the past decades. [1] https://www.lzg.nrw.de/covid19/download/laborbest_faelle_sars-cov-2.pdf https://www.lzg.nrw.de/covid19/download/laborbest_faelle_sar... (updated each day at 0:00 CET) [2] https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus/Daten/Fallzahlen_Kum_Tab.html https://www.rki.de/DE/Content/InfAZ/N/Neuartiges_Coronavirus... edit: some formatting.
• odiroot 5y ago
  > What we're seeing here is one of the wealthiest countries in the world with a population of > 80M people crumbling over a few thousand ICU patients because of long-standing issues that were never addressed. Also one that collects high income taxes and high health care contributions (~14% of the income). So one can't really blame it on lack of funds.
• periheli0n 5y ago
  Germany was long criticised for its overcapacity of intensive care wards. Just up until the pandemic hit.
• stefan_ 5y ago
  Is this the ventilator fallacy? You know, it's march 2020, and everyone is rushing to make more of those damn ventilators? If you end up on a fucking ventilator in an ICU bed, the damage is long done. The goal is not to maximize the number of people we can have on ventilators. That is an absurd idea on the same level of the "natural immunity is better than the vaccine!" insanity we got in 2021.
  • nzk 5y ago
    No, it's not the goal. The goal is also not to split society in two and create a group that'll hate everyone forever, just because our leaders can't own up to their mistakes. The goal is to get through the pandemic best we can, and keeping societal values and principals intact should be an important part of that.
    • ikrenji 5y ago
      what values? half the population doesn't value science, rationality, wisdom, progress etc. I don't wanna be governed by science deniers. I also don't wanna spend years in lockdown because people are refusing to get pricked by a needle
      • inkblotuniverse 5y ago
        They value all those things just as much as you do, they call some of them different names. And they don't believe that 'the other side' actuals exemplifies or actually values those things. Every lie they see coming from people in power (masks don't work, two weeks to stop the spread, the vaccine will fix this all) makes them less trustworthy.
      • nzk 5y ago
        Values such as politicians not insulting a group of people on television, not taking their rights away because they might potentially get sick eventually, generally not judging before proven guilty, not forcing someone to put something in their body that they absolutely do not want, not punishing one person for another person's crime. Last one is what they're doing to you if you feel like unvaccinated people are holding you hostage. Lockdowns end when we stop enacting them, there is no reason (except governmental screw up) to insist that people who chose to take the risk must not get sick under any circumstances, or to assume that everyone must be in lockdown until every last soul is jabbed and boostered whether they want to or not.
• mattlondon 5y ago
  For what it is worth, in the UK there were similar concerns. They set up "Nightingale Hospitals" (reference to Florence Nightingale) - basically convention centres were converted into field hospitals with ventilators. One in London had 4000 beds, and there were others elsewhere in the country. It took 9 days to build the London one (I was impressed!) After all that, the 4000 bed one in London treated 20 patients during the first wave: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56327214 https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-56327214 Most are now shutdown or being used as vaccination centres from what I know. If the UK can pull this off in 9 days, I am sure other more sophisticated countries can do the same if they need to.
  • switch007 5y ago
    Those hospitals were a joke. Ask anybody who worked in the NHS and they would have told you no way in hell could they have found sufficient numbers of staff to actually run them. A publicity stunt. The country went crazy thinking people were dying in the street and we needed emergency hospitals/morgues
    • m4rtink 5y ago
      We had similar ones here in Czech Republic and it was the same - if we had to use them, there would really not be enough people to run them. :P
    • PestoDiRucola 5y ago
      Same thing happened here in Italy especially during the first wave. They started building these temporary hospitals that hosted very few patients and some of them even finished during the end of the wave when there was no need for extra beds anymore.
• WinstonSmith84 5y ago
  this!! It's unbelievable that these wealthy western countries find "cheaper" to stop their economy than to build few more hospitals, beds and employ / pay more these guys running this. It's hundreds, maybe thousands, of billions wasted in Germany alone, versus. no idea but definitely not hundreds of billions to increase the ICU capacity to keep the economy open no matter what.
• jacquesm 5y ago
  That's not really the problem though. See, no matter how many ICU beds you have, the people going to the ICU are about 40% or so likely to die from COVID and the remainder will recover but will take a very long time to do so and have a significant chance of having long term residual effects and/or complications. You don't really wish that kind of thing on anybody. So you try to avoid people going to the ICU in the first place (assuming you have a humane government, which unfortunately isn't always the case). That said, the pandemic has definitely taught a lot of countries that stripping your health care system is probably a bad idea.
  • stormking 5y ago
    Yeah, but then the unvaccinated would only be risking their own lives. The most prominent argument for compulsory vaccination right now is that they're taking away scarce ICU beds.
    • jacquesm 5y ago
      It's a factor, but not the whole story. A lot of people are immunocompromised and for them just getting infected immediately raises the risks to unacceptable levels. We all owe the weaker people in our societies (from a health perspective) to take care of them, and if that requires us to get vaccinated to create a cordon of safety then so be it. That there are a bunch of egoists that would rather have us all fend for ourselves doesn't change that, and usually those are exactly the people demanding we take on their burdens when the situation is reversed. It's called a social contract for a reason: taxes, vaccination against communicable diseases where possible, compulsory education and so on, it's the flipside of the coin, you get a lot of rights, but you also have some (sometimes moral) obligations.
      • stormking 5y ago
        > We all owe the weaker people in our societies (from a health perspective) to take care of them, and if that requires us to get vaccinated to create a cordon of safety then so be it. Too bad current vaccines don't achieve that.
• switch007 5y ago
  Same story in UK (and about bed numbers in general). "The total number of NHS hospital beds in England has more than halved over the past 30 years, from around 299,000 in 1987/88 to 141,000 in 2019/20, while the number of patients treated has increased significantly." [0] [0] https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-numbers https://www.kingsfund.org.uk/publications/nhs-hospital-bed-n...
• dookahku 5y ago
  Still, get the vaccine
• raxxorrax 5y ago
  The egregious part is that they reduced ICU beds last summer, they even had monetary incentives to reduce them. Meanwhile vaccinating anyone < 60 has a very small benefit and it should be up to choice. Myokarditis side effects from the vaccine are probably bullshit, you can get it from almost all infections, so I expect it to see for every vaccine. We probably have no data since we lack operation of this scale. But people here are afraid (typical) and even demand harsher policies. They also seem incapable to hold political leaders to account. Politics basically failed to prepare for the next wave, which was known to be happening quite a long while ago. Instead we had an embarrassing slap-fight between different states. One more stupid than the other. Also you cannot just get a vaccine, you have to actively search for places that administer them. Pretty sure that I won't renew mine again, since this is just not acceptable. I would advise you to ask a doctor, even if those aren't too keen to get another patient with vaccine trouble, but getting a vaccine in an active wave might not be the best health recommendation.
  • Klemotio 5y ago
    Sooo any proof for your thoughts on the missing benefits of a vaccinated person u der 60? Wild statement to make without any numbers.
    • raxxorrax 5y ago
      The numbers of people dying from Covid. Germany has 100,000 dead people and ~5000 are under the age of 65. But you cannot stop there, you need to incrementally look at age correlated data to see a picture. Here is a start: https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105512/coronavirus-covid-19-deaths-by-gender-germany/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/1105512/coronavirus-covi... Covid is a serious disease, but we are talking of mandatory vaccination and I don't think that it can be justified for younger age groups.
      • Klemotio 5y ago
        So you don't think it's critical for younger people to be less infections? Having also less risk from the vaccine itself (which got injected into over 4 billion people) in comparison to COVID? I disagree. Lucky for me in this discussion, experts and politics are also now more inclined to have mandatory vaccination. Mandatory vaccination exists in Germany for other things as well. I totally think it is reasonable.
• VortexDream 5y ago
  I'm terrified by the fact that there are so many antivaxxers in Germany that they're showing up here too, as supposedly educated and intelligent peers. It is absolutely the fault of unvaccinated that they're unvaccinated and putting society at risk. It doesn't matter how many ICU beds and staff you have, an unvaccinated population would quickly overwhelm it simply by virtue of how incredibly long it takes to recover and how quickly new strains would develop.
  • hajile 5y ago
    Vaccinated people get the disease and transmit it about as well as unvaccinated people. This means the virus is busy making copies of itself in their body. Those copies not only have a chance to mutate, but have evolutionary selective pressure to mutate around the vaccine. If you don't have the vaccine, it has no pressure to mutate around the vaccine.
• mmcnl 5y ago
  This is imo not true. Ofcourse there could be more ICU beds, but the real problem is something called exponential growth. Doubling your ICU capacity only will give you a week or two until you need to have restrictions again. Failing to include the concept of exponential growth is cherrypicking facts.
• fithisux 5y ago
  It is exactly the same in Greece. They transition from public to private, they try to hide it and make profit over the deaths with the vaxxes. There maybe more depth in their motives. But this is the surface.