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Tesla, electric SUVs get poor scores from Consumer Reports

74 points by andreyk 5y ago

victor106 5y ago
I love Tesla but what this tells us is that it’s incredibly hard to build a car. As much as I love Elon and Tesla, it’s glaringly obvious that the other car companies have developed so much QC systems by now that they will absolutely take over the market and will crush Tesla. So I will remain an admirer of Elon and Tesla but I won’t be buying one nor will I purchase shares in the company.
neom 5y ago
"'Electric SUVs as a vehicle category is the absolute bottom in terms of reliability," Consumer Reports director of vehicle testing Jake Fisher said Thursday during a presentation to the Detroit Automotive Press Association. Among electric SUVs, Fisher said Ford Motor Co's Mustang Mach-E "is the only one with above-average reliability.'" It's interesting to me that till recently, Fords stock price was $5/6 - last time I checked, Ford still produced the most popular trucks in the world by a long shot?
- count 5y ago
  Ford is a manufacturing company, and its stock is valued as such. Telsa is valued as a 'tech company', and so has magic unlimited upside unicorns attached to its stock. Rivian too.
  - api 5y ago
    Tesla is probably a bit overvalued but not by much. You are not factoring in how much money printing is happening. A turd with a stock ticker would have a market cap at least into the tens of millions. Ford with the F-150 Lightning and the Mach-E seems grossly undervalued and a huge buying opportunity. When rednecks find out what “instant full torque” means the Lightning will sell very well.
    - dndjs 5y ago
      Wow, what a gross generalization
    - bumby 5y ago
      Is your claim that Ford should be valued more as a tech company now? I’d be curious if you could elaborate why
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      > Tesla is probably a bit overvalued but not by much. Tesla's current market cap only makes sense if they're producing more vehicles than every other US manufacturer, combined. That's a little more than "but not by much".
      - invalidname 5y ago
        I think their value went too high... But I think of them as an energy company. They sell the cars and the "gas stations" and the "oil wells" and all the retail spots. They also do that without spend on advertising. Honestly, that's pretty impressive. Is it worth more than all other auto companies combined? Will it last? No idea.
        rsynnott 5y ago
        That's even worse. I'm struggling to think of any large energy company that ever had a tech-ish P/E ratio. There was Enron, I suppose, but that was because it was a fraud, and wasn't _really_ an energy company anyway. As a general rule, the energy industry doesn't have huge margins.
        marticode 5y ago
        Energy companies aren't worth much of anything, so even if you value Tesla as an energy company that still doesn't justify its valuation. Tesla is basically in all the high capital with low margin businesses (cars, electricity, solar, batteries).
    - yeetaccount2 5y ago
  - heavyset_go 5y ago
    Tesla's valuation is influenced by hordes of retail investors who believe that any day now, their Tesla vehicles will receive an update that will turn them into FSD robotaxis that will generate income for them while they sleep. Ford doesn't have a funny meme man/CEO on Twitter making promises about their products to millions of retail investors that will never pan out. The dumb money just isn't there to drive up crazy valuations.
  - sjg007 5y ago
    Ford can absolutely become a tech company.
    - bumby 5y ago
      I mean, are we using tech to mean just software? Because if you look at how fast cars technological evolve, they’ve been a tech company for over 100 years. How is this different?
    - diveanon 5y ago
      I don’t think Ford has an interest in become over hyped trash, they are doing just fine.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- 1123581321 5y ago
  I think the expectation, at least in relation to the issues CR is citing in this article, is that Tesla’s issues with body assembly are fixable and something the whole company is keen to improve, whereas Ford is not politically or organizationally able to embrace more fundamental changes (electric, OTA updates, moving away from dealers and maintenance revenue.) And of course the expectation is that automakers who don’t move quickly in those directions will suffer. Personally, I think Ford is able to make those changes and will be rescued if it doesn’t.
  - jdhn 5y ago
    Ford is definitely embracing some of those fundamental changes. They're building billion dollar factories, and have been highlighting OTA updates as a key part of the Mach-E experience.
- jseliger 5y ago
  "Electric vehicle drive systems, or powertrains, are not the main source of problems, Fisher said. The issues reported by owners are with other features." So they have some minor teething problems with body panels and such: I have a Model Y and overall it's been great, and my biggest complaint is highway noise. At speeds below perhaps 40 mph, it's far quieter than conventional cars. Preliminary data indicates the batteries last for a long time, and that long-term electric car durability is likely to be far higher than conventional cars. Overall, the article is a reminder of the problem with rankings: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-t...
  - neom 5y ago
    I'm sure Tesla make amazing cars (I don't drive so no horse in this race) - but I still don't really understand why Tesla is a 1.3T company and Ford is a 77.4B company.
    - verdverm 5y ago
      Tesla is more than an auto company, they demonstrate faster innovation, they are more capital efficient and scale faster than was thought possible. Consider they are also selling solar, batteries, insurance, and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. They may also resell their tech and software down the line as well. There is also the general over valuation of the market at work, which is not evenly distributed between companies. Too much money without enough places to go.
      - rsynnott 5y ago
        > Consider they are also selling solar Generally very low margin. > batteries Generally extremely low margin. > insurance Low margin > and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. Speculative.
      - FireBeyond 5y ago
        A lot of that "innovation" is just "move fast and break things". Tesla has pushed out and then reverted how many FSD betas in response to issues? It's not surprising that so many people are disconcerted by the concept of being an unwilling beta tester for Tesla (by virtue of sharing the road), a company that clearly has disturbingly little acceptance testing for the software they're releasing.
- sodality2 5y ago
  A $1 stock with 100 million shares is valued the same as a $100 stock with 1 million shares. What matters more is market cap
jdkee 5y ago
I thought CR gave the Tesla Model S the magazine’s first perfect score for a vehicle?
- count 5y ago
  Model S is a sedan, not an SUV.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - bdcravens 5y ago
    The article wasn't only about SUVs. It was about the reliability of 1) Teslas AND 2) electric SUVs
- detaro 5y ago
  and that's relevant to the reliablity ratings of Teslas today how?
- dangle1 5y ago
  Right, but this article is discussing reliability. It seems like CR provide the closest thing to a scientific approach to comparing vehicle reliability via the diligence of their subscribers to participate in reliability surveys. The article goes on to say that: >Consumer Reports recommends the Tesla Model 3 sedan and rates its reliability as "average." But Fisher said the rest of Tesla's vehicles are below average. The popular Model Y SUV, Tesla's best-selling vehicle, has problems with poorly fitting body panels, leaks and issues with its climate control, Fisher said. The larger Model X SUV "still has problems with the falcon wing doors," Fisher said.
  - kolbe 5y ago
    Explain why Ford’s electric SUV, which has existed for maybe two years, is even being rated then?
    - 5y ago
taf2 5y ago
It’s been awhile but I’ll never forget turning in a five year old Range Rover. The axil most have been mis aligned or something because the car vibrated so bad we were worried the thing would fall apart. This issue among the many other monthly 2k service visits is why I’d never by one again… contrast that with my two model x - 2017 had to replace the computer which was inconvenient but cost me 0, but did take two weeks to arrive . The driver window would not roll up unless I inched it carefully but was fixed in my office parking lot while at work and was never an issue again. Now my 2020 model x has the same window issue but no computer replacement needed. Before those my model s 2014 - had one recall check on the seat belt. Total service cost of a Tesla for my three cars over 7 years … 0… Range Rover, bmw and Benz all in the thousands many times over… it’s been 7 years so maybe those “high” brands improved? But for me I’ll probably never know
- MontyCarloHall 5y ago
  Meanwhile my Lexus has never had a single issue over its 12 years. Why do people settle for “luxury” cars with anything less than perfect reliability?
  - toomuchtodo 5y ago
    I elected to give my money to a company that is rapidly accelerating the transition to electric vehicles. Traded all of our Toyotas in for Teslas, wouldn’t look back. What would I tell my kids? “I was waiting for perfect fit and finish, sorry about the climate change.” Our 2021 Y is flawless, and have no problems doing work myself on our older S and X. Your Lexus will burn petroleum forever, and Toyota has no interest in moving to EVs rapidly (and there is evidence they are actively lobbying against moving to EVs).
    - MontyCarloHall 5y ago
      I’m referring more to the parent’s BMW/Mercedes/Range Rover. I totally get why people would put up with Tesla’s teething problems. I don’t get why people put up with shoddiness from other car brands, unless they’re so rich that they can afford to buy a new car every couple years.
JoshTko 5y ago
I'll just leave this here. "CR’s diverse community of philanthropists, foundations, and nonprofits partners includes the Ford Foundation..." https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/about-us/our-partners/philanthropic-partners/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/about-us/our-partners/ph...
- jasonjayr 5y ago
  While always wise to consider your source, and follow the money, has there been any evidence that CR has done anything to tarnish their impartialness? Their whole reputation and name stands suggests that they would strongly consider any such incident as a serious breach of trust ...
  - lopatin 5y ago
    It depends who you ask, I guess. If you ask Elon, he might consider this low rating as proof of impartialness. You and others may disagree. Such are the consequences of a potential conflict of interest. Not a great situation all around.
- davidmr 5y ago
  5 seconds of looking would have found you this: “The Ford Foundation is not connected to the Ford Motor Company. The Ford Foundation and Ford Motor Company are two separate and legally unrelated entities whose operations are completely independent and have been for more than 50 years. There is not any financial authority, decision making nor funding relationship between the two organizations.”
  - unnouinceput 5y ago
    Please try and have a foundation named Microsoft or Apple, see how fast you keep its doors open. No way in hell Ford would allow its name to be slapped on an unrelated foundation.
    - triactual 5y ago
MichaelMoser123 5y ago
>... leaks and issues with its climate control Do they refer to the battery pack climate control or the climate control inside the cabin of the car? I am living in Israel - a country with a warm climate, so I am a bit weary of EV's that need to cool the battery pack, in order to keep going. Does anyone know how well they keep the battery pack alive in warmer climate zones? (i start to see some teslas, here and there, but I have no idea how well the battery pack stays alive, when it's 40C in the shade) Is it possible, that they don't have the power to cool the cabin, when they need to cool the battery pack as well?
AlexandrB 5y ago
> The larger Model X SUV "still has problems with the falcon wing doors," Fisher said. This is the least-surprising thing I've read all year. Adding a second hinge to a door is asking for trouble. Not to mention having to weather-seal a door seam on the roof.
- bin_bash 5y ago
  There's a lot of hatchbacks built in the 80's that still have solid weather seals on the roof.
teslaseven 5y ago
I've owned a Tesla model S for about seven years. I really enjoy the feeling of driving it, but I don't think I'd buy a Tesla again given the experience of owning it. In that time I've dealt with: Several "opportunities" to go "full self driving". This specific vehicle is running up on a decade, there is no way it'll materialize for this car. Weird sensor bugs - doors refusing to open, or more scary, opening while driving. Center console and driver gauges crashing - screens locking up and going blank and service tells me, 'try deleting some of your navigation history?' Updates sometimes failing, leaving the car sending notices that it's trying to update and can't, over and over. Windows that don't seal, or seal too high (making it difficult to open the door). Being told the built in 3G modem will have to be scrapped and replaced at my expense, requiring a whole new entertainment unit (including a new screen). Worse battery life than expected, despite being a cautious driver who babies that battery pack. Odd software bugs - it regularly double sends garage door commands, thinks the wrong key is in the vehicle (resetting the drivers seat to the wrong profile), fails to make and maintain Bluetooth, makes bad navigation assumptions (no, I'm not trying to drive to Prague from Seattle), back up camera locking up/freezing/delayed. Tons of fit and finish issues. When I first had the car, I was treated like royalty by their service team. These days they often brush aside concerns ("there's a recall for my vehicle", "oh? Yes. We'll contact you when we can service it." Months pass. "I never heard from you, is my vehicle still recalled?" "Yes, but you didn't schedule service. You should have scheduled.") Supercharger network is great... When you can use it. I've had several instances where the hardware didn't work, the speeds weren't correct, or people were idling with full batteries, blocking my use. So, all in all, I love this car and I hate this car, and it's just obnoxious and frustrating enough to warrant looking elsewhere. The things that make Tesla unique are fading as other manufacturers catch up, and frankly, I trust those other manufacturers to assemble a better car.
- antisthenes 5y ago
  > Worse battery life than expected, despite being a cautious driver who babies that battery pack. Can you elaborate on this? To me, this is 90% of importance of owning an electric car. If the range is significantly worse than expected, then the customer is being taken advantage of, since that's where most of the manufacturing cost lies.
BoysenberryPi 5y ago
This is not surprising. Tesla is notorious for pushing QC on to the purchaser and fixing all the faults after the fact. Everyone I know who owns a Tesla has had some sort of problem that they had to get fixed almost immediately after purchasing.
- teslaseven 5y ago
  I had to have my windshield replaced immediately and other components shortly after.
- bumby 5y ago
  Is this the general consensus of their attitude towards quality? Curious if people think this is an artifact of SV culture to move fast? Having previously worked in safety critical spaces in aerospace and automotive, this lackadaisical attitude to QC is a bit foreign to me.
  - stefan_ 5y ago
    It goes a bit beyond lack of QC, like when they ran out of USB-C charger chips and just stopped fitting them without telling anyone: https://nitter.net/omacs/status/1459593051538481153 https://nitter.net/omacs/status/1459593051538481153 I think the recommendation is to take a pages long checklist with you when taking delivery.
    - minhazm 5y ago
      Yeah not telling anyone was the biggest mistake. The vast majority of Tesla buyers would be fine with being told that they'll get this retrofitted in a few weeks with a service appointment vs delaying their car delivery a few weeks or months. All they had to was tell them up front. At least Tesla is going to retrofit these. A lot of companies are having problems with the chip shortage and they have to make some tradeoffs like this. At least Tesla is fixing it post delivery. Others are just removing key features, for example BMW is removing touch screens from many of their cars and as far as I know there's no retrofit program to add it back. Tesla's biggest issue with this stuff is the lack of communication ahead of time.
xyst 5y ago
Hopefully when I need to replace my ICE. The landscape of EVs will drastically change.
spamizbad 5y ago
Had an opportunity to drive one recently (2020 Model S). Felt very high-tech. If you love speed and acceleration in a straight line they’re wonderful. But the sort of “fit and finish” and general comfort was… not what I would expect from a car costing $40,000+ The real risk for Tesla is probably other manufacturers catching them on range. Once you have EVs in the same price range, with roughly the same capacity Tesla starts looking like any other car with a bunch of gizmos instead of comforts.
- alphabettsy 5y ago
  For me the appeal of Tesla is the charging network. Once that’s no longer a major advantage in their favor it gets interesting.
  - r00fus 5y ago
    Apparently the infra bill just passed has funding to build out charger network… and a clause that even Tesla could benefit from if they opened their supercharger stations to a certain amount of nonTesla vehicles
- ahahahahah 5y ago
  > not what I would expect from a car costing $40,000+ That's particularly damning considering the cheapest Model S is something like $95,000 today.
pengaru 5y ago
The KIA EV6 actually looks pretty reasonable, RWD even...
- solidr53 5y ago
  Spec wise it compares well with the Tesla Model Y. EV6 has vehicle-to-load, faster charging speeds due to 800V system. And doesn’t look like a pregnant frog from the front/rear. Y has 3rd row for your little minions though.
  - akmarinov 5y ago
    The EV6 also has cooled seats, 360 degree camera view and Apple Carplay/Android Auto.
stevespang 5y ago
[dead]
kolbe 5y ago
I've been researching Consumer Reports survey methods, and it doesn't appear they do anything to verify whether they're talking to an actual car owner or not. Can anyone corroborate this?
- ahahahahah 5y ago
  I bet there's a conspiracy among short sellers, oil companies, and other boogeymen to cheat these surveys.
diveanon 5y ago
Beta testers one and all. The enduring legacy of Tesla will be that it moved the car market towards electric. It will never be mass market in the same way as Ford or Honda, quality is a culture that takes a lot of time and effort to establish.

74 points by andreyk 5y ago

I love Tesla but what this tells us is that it’s incredibly hard to build a car. As much as I love Elon and Tesla, it’s glaringly obvious that the other car companies have developed so much QC systems by now that they will absolutely take over the market and will crush Tesla. So I will remain an admirer of Elon and Tesla but I won’t be buying one nor will I purchase shares in the company.

neom 5y ago

"'Electric SUVs as a vehicle category is the absolute bottom in terms of reliability," Consumer Reports director of vehicle testing Jake Fisher said Thursday during a presentation to the Detroit Automotive Press Association. Among electric SUVs, Fisher said Ford Motor Co's Mustang Mach-E "is the only one with above-average reliability.'" It's interesting to me that till recently, Fords stock price was $5/6 - last time I checked, Ford still produced the most popular trucks in the world by a long shot?

count 5y ago
Ford is a manufacturing company, and its stock is valued as such. Telsa is valued as a 'tech company', and so has magic unlimited upside unicorns attached to its stock. Rivian too.
- api 5y ago
  Tesla is probably a bit overvalued but not by much. You are not factoring in how much money printing is happening. A turd with a stock ticker would have a market cap at least into the tens of millions. Ford with the F-150 Lightning and the Mach-E seems grossly undervalued and a huge buying opportunity. When rednecks find out what “instant full torque” means the Lightning will sell very well.
  - dndjs 5y ago
    Wow, what a gross generalization
  - bumby 5y ago
    Is your claim that Ford should be valued more as a tech company now? I’d be curious if you could elaborate why
  - FireBeyond 5y ago
    > Tesla is probably a bit overvalued but not by much. Tesla's current market cap only makes sense if they're producing more vehicles than every other US manufacturer, combined. That's a little more than "but not by much".
    - invalidname 5y ago
      I think their value went too high... But I think of them as an energy company. They sell the cars and the "gas stations" and the "oil wells" and all the retail spots. They also do that without spend on advertising. Honestly, that's pretty impressive. Is it worth more than all other auto companies combined? Will it last? No idea.
      - rsynnott 5y ago
        That's even worse. I'm struggling to think of any large energy company that ever had a tech-ish P/E ratio. There was Enron, I suppose, but that was because it was a fraud, and wasn't _really_ an energy company anyway. As a general rule, the energy industry doesn't have huge margins.
      - marticode 5y ago
        Energy companies aren't worth much of anything, so even if you value Tesla as an energy company that still doesn't justify its valuation. Tesla is basically in all the high capital with low margin businesses (cars, electricity, solar, batteries).
  - yeetaccount2 5y ago
- heavyset_go 5y ago
  Tesla's valuation is influenced by hordes of retail investors who believe that any day now, their Tesla vehicles will receive an update that will turn them into FSD robotaxis that will generate income for them while they sleep. Ford doesn't have a funny meme man/CEO on Twitter making promises about their products to millions of retail investors that will never pan out. The dumb money just isn't there to drive up crazy valuations.
- sjg007 5y ago
  Ford can absolutely become a tech company.
  - bumby 5y ago
    I mean, are we using tech to mean just software? Because if you look at how fast cars technological evolve, they’ve been a tech company for over 100 years. How is this different?
  - diveanon 5y ago
    I don’t think Ford has an interest in become over hyped trash, they are doing just fine.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
1123581321 5y ago
I think the expectation, at least in relation to the issues CR is citing in this article, is that Tesla’s issues with body assembly are fixable and something the whole company is keen to improve, whereas Ford is not politically or organizationally able to embrace more fundamental changes (electric, OTA updates, moving away from dealers and maintenance revenue.) And of course the expectation is that automakers who don’t move quickly in those directions will suffer. Personally, I think Ford is able to make those changes and will be rescued if it doesn’t.
- jdhn 5y ago
  Ford is definitely embracing some of those fundamental changes. They're building billion dollar factories, and have been highlighting OTA updates as a key part of the Mach-E experience.
jseliger 5y ago
"Electric vehicle drive systems, or powertrains, are not the main source of problems, Fisher said. The issues reported by owners are with other features." So they have some minor teething problems with body panels and such: I have a Model Y and overall it's been great, and my biggest complaint is highway noise. At speeds below perhaps 40 mph, it's far quieter than conventional cars. Preliminary data indicates the batteries last for a long time, and that long-term electric car durability is likely to be far higher than conventional cars. Overall, the article is a reminder of the problem with rankings: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-things https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2011/02/14/the-order-of-t...
- neom 5y ago
  I'm sure Tesla make amazing cars (I don't drive so no horse in this race) - but I still don't really understand why Tesla is a 1.3T company and Ford is a 77.4B company.
  - verdverm 5y ago
    Tesla is more than an auto company, they demonstrate faster innovation, they are more capital efficient and scale faster than was thought possible. Consider they are also selling solar, batteries, insurance, and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. They may also resell their tech and software down the line as well. There is also the general over valuation of the market at work, which is not evenly distributed between companies. Too much money without enough places to go.
    - rsynnott 5y ago
      > Consider they are also selling solar Generally very low margin. > batteries Generally extremely low margin. > insurance Low margin > and likely in home robots, ride sharing, and energy trading down the line. Speculative.
    - FireBeyond 5y ago
      A lot of that "innovation" is just "move fast and break things". Tesla has pushed out and then reverted how many FSD betas in response to issues? It's not surprising that so many people are disconcerted by the concept of being an unwilling beta tester for Tesla (by virtue of sharing the road), a company that clearly has disturbingly little acceptance testing for the software they're releasing.
sodality2 5y ago
A $1 stock with 100 million shares is valued the same as a $100 stock with 1 million shares. What matters more is market cap

jdkee 5y ago

I thought CR gave the Tesla Model S the magazine’s first perfect score for a vehicle?

count 5y ago
Model S is a sedan, not an SUV.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- bdcravens 5y ago
  The article wasn't only about SUVs. It was about the reliability of 1) Teslas AND 2) electric SUVs
detaro 5y ago
and that's relevant to the reliablity ratings of Teslas today how?
dangle1 5y ago
Right, but this article is discussing reliability. It seems like CR provide the closest thing to a scientific approach to comparing vehicle reliability via the diligence of their subscribers to participate in reliability surveys. The article goes on to say that: >Consumer Reports recommends the Tesla Model 3 sedan and rates its reliability as "average." But Fisher said the rest of Tesla's vehicles are below average. The popular Model Y SUV, Tesla's best-selling vehicle, has problems with poorly fitting body panels, leaks and issues with its climate control, Fisher said. The larger Model X SUV "still has problems with the falcon wing doors," Fisher said.
- kolbe 5y ago
  Explain why Ford’s electric SUV, which has existed for maybe two years, is even being rated then?
  - 5y ago

taf2 5y ago

It’s been awhile but I’ll never forget turning in a five year old Range Rover. The axil most have been mis aligned or something because the car vibrated so bad we were worried the thing would fall apart. This issue among the many other monthly 2k service visits is why I’d never by one again… contrast that with my two model x - 2017 had to replace the computer which was inconvenient but cost me 0, but did take two weeks to arrive . The driver window would not roll up unless I inched it carefully but was fixed in my office parking lot while at work and was never an issue again. Now my 2020 model x has the same window issue but no computer replacement needed. Before those my model s 2014 - had one recall check on the seat belt. Total service cost of a Tesla for my three cars over 7 years … 0… Range Rover, bmw and Benz all in the thousands many times over… it’s been 7 years so maybe those “high” brands improved? But for me I’ll probably never know

MontyCarloHall 5y ago
Meanwhile my Lexus has never had a single issue over its 12 years. Why do people settle for “luxury” cars with anything less than perfect reliability?
- toomuchtodo 5y ago
  I elected to give my money to a company that is rapidly accelerating the transition to electric vehicles. Traded all of our Toyotas in for Teslas, wouldn’t look back. What would I tell my kids? “I was waiting for perfect fit and finish, sorry about the climate change.” Our 2021 Y is flawless, and have no problems doing work myself on our older S and X. Your Lexus will burn petroleum forever, and Toyota has no interest in moving to EVs rapidly (and there is evidence they are actively lobbying against moving to EVs).
  - MontyCarloHall 5y ago
    I’m referring more to the parent’s BMW/Mercedes/Range Rover. I totally get why people would put up with Tesla’s teething problems. I don’t get why people put up with shoddiness from other car brands, unless they’re so rich that they can afford to buy a new car every couple years.

JoshTko 5y ago

I'll just leave this here. "CR’s diverse community of philanthropists, foundations, and nonprofits partners includes the Ford Foundation..." https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/about-us/our-partners/philanthropic-partners/index.htm https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/about-us/our-partners/ph...

jasonjayr 5y ago
While always wise to consider your source, and follow the money, has there been any evidence that CR has done anything to tarnish their impartialness? Their whole reputation and name stands suggests that they would strongly consider any such incident as a serious breach of trust ...
- lopatin 5y ago
  It depends who you ask, I guess. If you ask Elon, he might consider this low rating as proof of impartialness. You and others may disagree. Such are the consequences of a potential conflict of interest. Not a great situation all around.
davidmr 5y ago
5 seconds of looking would have found you this: “The Ford Foundation is not connected to the Ford Motor Company. The Ford Foundation and Ford Motor Company are two separate and legally unrelated entities whose operations are completely independent and have been for more than 50 years. There is not any financial authority, decision making nor funding relationship between the two organizations.”
- unnouinceput 5y ago
  Please try and have a foundation named Microsoft or Apple, see how fast you keep its doors open. No way in hell Ford would allow its name to be slapped on an unrelated foundation.
  - triactual 5y ago

MichaelMoser123 5y ago

>... leaks and issues with its climate control Do they refer to the battery pack climate control or the climate control inside the cabin of the car? I am living in Israel - a country with a warm climate, so I am a bit weary of EV's that need to cool the battery pack, in order to keep going. Does anyone know how well they keep the battery pack alive in warmer climate zones? (i start to see some teslas, here and there, but I have no idea how well the battery pack stays alive, when it's 40C in the shade) Is it possible, that they don't have the power to cool the cabin, when they need to cool the battery pack as well?

AlexandrB 5y ago

> The larger Model X SUV "still has problems with the falcon wing doors," Fisher said. This is the least-surprising thing I've read all year. Adding a second hinge to a door is asking for trouble. Not to mention having to weather-seal a door seam on the roof.

bin_bash 5y ago
There's a lot of hatchbacks built in the 80's that still have solid weather seals on the roof.

teslaseven 5y ago

I've owned a Tesla model S for about seven years. I really enjoy the feeling of driving it, but I don't think I'd buy a Tesla again given the experience of owning it. In that time I've dealt with: Several "opportunities" to go "full self driving". This specific vehicle is running up on a decade, there is no way it'll materialize for this car. Weird sensor bugs - doors refusing to open, or more scary, opening while driving. Center console and driver gauges crashing - screens locking up and going blank and service tells me, 'try deleting some of your navigation history?' Updates sometimes failing, leaving the car sending notices that it's trying to update and can't, over and over. Windows that don't seal, or seal too high (making it difficult to open the door). Being told the built in 3G modem will have to be scrapped and replaced at my expense, requiring a whole new entertainment unit (including a new screen). Worse battery life than expected, despite being a cautious driver who babies that battery pack. Odd software bugs - it regularly double sends garage door commands, thinks the wrong key is in the vehicle (resetting the drivers seat to the wrong profile), fails to make and maintain Bluetooth, makes bad navigation assumptions (no, I'm not trying to drive to Prague from Seattle), back up camera locking up/freezing/delayed. Tons of fit and finish issues. When I first had the car, I was treated like royalty by their service team. These days they often brush aside concerns ("there's a recall for my vehicle", "oh? Yes. We'll contact you when we can service it." Months pass. "I never heard from you, is my vehicle still recalled?" "Yes, but you didn't schedule service. You should have scheduled.") Supercharger network is great... When you can use it. I've had several instances where the hardware didn't work, the speeds weren't correct, or people were idling with full batteries, blocking my use. So, all in all, I love this car and I hate this car, and it's just obnoxious and frustrating enough to warrant looking elsewhere. The things that make Tesla unique are fading as other manufacturers catch up, and frankly, I trust those other manufacturers to assemble a better car.

antisthenes 5y ago
> Worse battery life than expected, despite being a cautious driver who babies that battery pack. Can you elaborate on this? To me, this is 90% of importance of owning an electric car. If the range is significantly worse than expected, then the customer is being taken advantage of, since that's where most of the manufacturing cost lies.

BoysenberryPi 5y ago

This is not surprising. Tesla is notorious for pushing QC on to the purchaser and fixing all the faults after the fact. Everyone I know who owns a Tesla has had some sort of problem that they had to get fixed almost immediately after purchasing.

teslaseven 5y ago
I had to have my windshield replaced immediately and other components shortly after.
bumby 5y ago
Is this the general consensus of their attitude towards quality? Curious if people think this is an artifact of SV culture to move fast? Having previously worked in safety critical spaces in aerospace and automotive, this lackadaisical attitude to QC is a bit foreign to me.
- stefan_ 5y ago
  It goes a bit beyond lack of QC, like when they ran out of USB-C charger chips and just stopped fitting them without telling anyone: https://nitter.net/omacs/status/1459593051538481153 https://nitter.net/omacs/status/1459593051538481153 I think the recommendation is to take a pages long checklist with you when taking delivery.
  - minhazm 5y ago
    Yeah not telling anyone was the biggest mistake. The vast majority of Tesla buyers would be fine with being told that they'll get this retrofitted in a few weeks with a service appointment vs delaying their car delivery a few weeks or months. All they had to was tell them up front. At least Tesla is going to retrofit these. A lot of companies are having problems with the chip shortage and they have to make some tradeoffs like this. At least Tesla is fixing it post delivery. Others are just removing key features, for example BMW is removing touch screens from many of their cars and as far as I know there's no retrofit program to add it back. Tesla's biggest issue with this stuff is the lack of communication ahead of time.

xyst 5y ago

Hopefully when I need to replace my ICE. The landscape of EVs will drastically change.

spamizbad 5y ago

Had an opportunity to drive one recently (2020 Model S). Felt very high-tech. If you love speed and acceleration in a straight line they’re wonderful. But the sort of “fit and finish” and general comfort was… not what I would expect from a car costing $40,000+ The real risk for Tesla is probably other manufacturers catching them on range. Once you have EVs in the same price range, with roughly the same capacity Tesla starts looking like any other car with a bunch of gizmos instead of comforts.

alphabettsy 5y ago
For me the appeal of Tesla is the charging network. Once that’s no longer a major advantage in their favor it gets interesting.
- r00fus 5y ago
  Apparently the infra bill just passed has funding to build out charger network… and a clause that even Tesla could benefit from if they opened their supercharger stations to a certain amount of nonTesla vehicles
ahahahahah 5y ago
> not what I would expect from a car costing $40,000+ That's particularly damning considering the cheapest Model S is something like $95,000 today.

pengaru 5y ago

The KIA EV6 actually looks pretty reasonable, RWD even...

solidr53 5y ago
Spec wise it compares well with the Tesla Model Y. EV6 has vehicle-to-load, faster charging speeds due to 800V system. And doesn’t look like a pregnant frog from the front/rear. Y has 3rd row for your little minions though.
- akmarinov 5y ago
  The EV6 also has cooled seats, 360 degree camera view and Apple Carplay/Android Auto.

stevespang 5y ago

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kolbe 5y ago

I've been researching Consumer Reports survey methods, and it doesn't appear they do anything to verify whether they're talking to an actual car owner or not. Can anyone corroborate this?

ahahahahah 5y ago
I bet there's a conspiracy among short sellers, oil companies, and other boogeymen to cheat these surveys.

diveanon 5y ago

Beta testers one and all. The enduring legacy of Tesla will be that it moved the car market towards electric. It will never be mass market in the same way as Ford or Honda, quality is a culture that takes a lot of time and effort to establish.