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The article should have mentioned some of the mega-projects that are already underway, which will improve rail links between European countries. The Stuttgart

The article should have mentioned some of the mega-projects that are already underway, which will improve rail links between European countries. The Stuttgart 21 project will reconfigure the Stuttgart central station to create a direct line between Paris and Vienna. Fehmarn Belt Fixed Link will build a new undersea rail tunnel between Denmark and Germany, allowing Sweden to operate night trains to Brussels. In Switzerland, several new tunnels under the alps beginning operation this year will cut travel time to Italy. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_21 https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fehmarn_Belt_Fixed_Link https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gotthard_Base_Tunnel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceneri_Base_Tunnel https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ceneri_Base_Tunnel

lqet 5y ago
Well, Stuttgart 21 is not exactly a project you want to dig up when you want to advertise train travel. The reason of course is that most people at least in Germany associate it with the highly controversial rebuilding of Stuttgart main station [0], although the rest of the project is pretty reasonable. What is also missing from your list is the fact that the main feeder line for the Gotthard base tunnel, and one of the most important railway lines in Europe, the Rhine valley railway [1], is extremely overloaded with over 300 trains per day, and the ongoing extension, which was planned in the 70ies and 80ies and for which construction work started in 1987 will not be finished before 2041 (!) [2]. It was originally planned to be finished in 2002. In 2016, the line was capped for days because the rail company (DB) chopped down some trees which were specifically planted in the 19th century to stabilize the ground (which DB was unaware of), resulting in a massive landslide [3]. In 2017, it was capped again for 2 months because of a collapse of a tunnel under construction by DB and crossing the existing line underground [4, 5]. In 2020, it was capped again because a bridge which DB planned to replace with a longer one crashed onto the rails and into a train, killing the driver [6] and nearly missing a high speed ICE train. If the embarrasing engineering failures continue at this rate, I doubt they will finish the extension in the 21rst century. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_Hauptbahnhof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_Hauptbahnhof [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim%E2%80%93Karlsruhe%E2%80%93Basel_railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim%E2%80%93Karlsruhe%E2%... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausbau-_und_Neubaustrecke_Karlsruhe%E2%80%93Basel https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausbau-_und_Neubaustrecke_Karl... [3] https://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/07/36/42/b1/120996529-h-720.jpg https://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/07/36/42/b1/120996529-... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastatt_Tunnel#August_2017_collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastatt_Tunnel#August_2017_col... [5] https://bilder3.n-tv.de/img/incoming/origs19996186/8312795961-w0-h0/7df7eec7af8688f5a377b39f7d94bef5.jpg https://bilder3.n-tv.de/img/incoming/origs19996186/831279596... [6] https://www.schwaebische.de/cms_media/module_img/12646/6323334_1_tablet_Mit_einem_grossen_Autokran_wird_an_einer_Unfallstelle_eine_havarierte_Lokomotive_bei_Auggen_geborgen._Foto_Patrick_Seeger_dpa_Archivbild.jpg https://www.schwaebische.de/cms_media/module_img/12646/63233...
- thrdbndndn 5y ago
  I briefly browsed the Stuttgart 21 article but didn't quite get why people are opposing it. Would you mind to elaborate?
  - chad_oliver 5y ago
    Here is one angle: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/08/31/stuttgart-21s-impending-capacity-problems-and-timed-connections/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/08/31/stuttgart-21s-... In short, it's very expensive and it will quickly reach peak capacity and need expansion.
  - edynoid 5y ago
    Living in the area at the height of the protests, so I can fill in. Some of the reasons: many people (including experts) argued that the project could have been done for half the price with almost the same effect by upgrading the existing station above ground instead of building an entirely new underground station, for example. Costs kept increasing – nothing new for big public infra projects, of course. But when a multi-billion euro project slowly triples its budget, people start asking questions. That way it also took away funding from other smaller necessary projects. One should consider here that DB (railway operator) has been shutting down smaller, rural lines for decades making it harder and harder to rely on them, when you don't live on the main intercity network. There were ecological concerns about the planned changes to Stuttgart's inner city layout and how it affects the already bad micro climate. Plus there was a general sense of the project being pushed through by stubborn DB officials and state government as a kind of vanity project despite the aforementioned concerns. They acted completely tone-deaf to the protests and in one instance used excessive police force to crush a peaceful assembly. Just altogether bad topics, which did not make the project more popular.
    - redprince 5y ago
      > Plus there was a general sense of the project being pushed through by stubborn DB officials and state government as a kind of vanity project despite the aforementioned concerns. A public referendum was held in 2011. 58.9% voted for the project to be continued.
R0b0t1 5y ago
Rail is great for freight but what surprised me was that while I was in Europe flights were faster and cheaper. I don't think the right reaction is to tax planes so that people don't use them, as time has value.
- RC_ITR 5y ago
  Argument is the externalities of carbon emissions have (negative) value, so a tax would bring those two things in line and encourage that only people who really need to fly do so.
  - R0b0t1 5y ago
    All other things equal you need to make a very strong case for externalities as the market is efficient. So far it's just people saying "planes are bad." It's entirely possible the externalities of having people (and goods) unproductive for longer periods of time is worse than simply getting them where they need to be.
    - philips 5y ago
      Without putting a price on the carbon externality the market can't figure it out though. Idle time of workers is a pretty well understood market problem so I don't think that is an externality. Am I misunderstanding your position?
    - RC_ITR 5y ago
      I mean, have you ever heard of tragedy of the commons? 1) All people share one atmosphere 2) Well-reviewed science shows that individual decisions like taking a flight make the atmosphere less hospitable for all. That type of problem is literally the reason the term externality was coined.
    - gautamcgoel 5y ago
      I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "strong case". Flying emits substantially more carbon dioxide (by more than a factor of 100, IIRC). The deleterious effects of increasing CO2 in the atmosphere are well-documented. Isn't that a strong enough case?
jokteur 5y ago
Both tunnels in Switzerland have already been operational. The Gotthard basis tunnel since 2016, and the Ceneri tunnel since 2020.
jacquesm 5y ago
Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica
- andrewseanryan 5y ago
  Our brains went to the same place. I posted the same link 3 minutes later haha
  - jacquesm 5y ago
    :) For 'reasons' I would love it if that line opened up, it would make my life a whole lot easier. Better still if they make it run all the way to Amsterdam or Brussels. The Baltics are terribly isolated from the rest of Europe and it would be great if there was better connectivity.
andrewseanryan 5y ago
I'll add to your resources one more rail project. Rail Baltica which will connect Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Finland with Poland and therefore the rest of Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica

lqet 5y ago

Well, Stuttgart 21 is not exactly a project you want to dig up when you want to advertise train travel. The reason of course is that most people at least in Germany associate it with the highly controversial rebuilding of Stuttgart main station [0], although the rest of the project is pretty reasonable. What is also missing from your list is the fact that the main feeder line for the Gotthard base tunnel, and one of the most important railway lines in Europe, the Rhine valley railway [1], is extremely overloaded with over 300 trains per day, and the ongoing extension, which was planned in the 70ies and 80ies and for which construction work started in 1987 will not be finished before 2041 (!) [2]. It was originally planned to be finished in 2002. In 2016, the line was capped for days because the rail company (DB) chopped down some trees which were specifically planted in the 19th century to stabilize the ground (which DB was unaware of), resulting in a massive landslide [3]. In 2017, it was capped again for 2 months because of a collapse of a tunnel under construction by DB and crossing the existing line underground [4, 5]. In 2020, it was capped again because a bridge which DB planned to replace with a longer one crashed onto the rails and into a train, killing the driver [6] and nearly missing a high speed ICE train. If the embarrasing engineering failures continue at this rate, I doubt they will finish the extension in the 21rst century. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_Hauptbahnhof https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stuttgart_Hauptbahnhof [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim%E2%80%93Karlsruhe%E2%80%93Basel_railway https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mannheim%E2%80%93Karlsruhe%E2%... [2] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausbau-_und_Neubaustrecke_Karlsruhe%E2%80%93Basel https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausbau-_und_Neubaustrecke_Karl... [3] https://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/07/36/42/b1/120996529-h-720.jpg https://ais.badische-zeitung.de/piece/07/36/42/b1/120996529-... [4] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastatt_Tunnel#August_2017_collapse https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rastatt_Tunnel#August_2017_col... [5] https://bilder3.n-tv.de/img/incoming/origs19996186/8312795961-w0-h0/7df7eec7af8688f5a377b39f7d94bef5.jpg https://bilder3.n-tv.de/img/incoming/origs19996186/831279596... [6] https://www.schwaebische.de/cms_media/module_img/12646/6323334_1_tablet_Mit_einem_grossen_Autokran_wird_an_einer_Unfallstelle_eine_havarierte_Lokomotive_bei_Auggen_geborgen._Foto_Patrick_Seeger_dpa_Archivbild.jpg https://www.schwaebische.de/cms_media/module_img/12646/63233...

thrdbndndn 5y ago
I briefly browsed the Stuttgart 21 article but didn't quite get why people are opposing it. Would you mind to elaborate?
- chad_oliver 5y ago
  Here is one angle: https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/08/31/stuttgart-21s-impending-capacity-problems-and-timed-connections/ https://pedestrianobservations.com/2019/08/31/stuttgart-21s-... In short, it's very expensive and it will quickly reach peak capacity and need expansion.
- edynoid 5y ago
  Living in the area at the height of the protests, so I can fill in. Some of the reasons: many people (including experts) argued that the project could have been done for half the price with almost the same effect by upgrading the existing station above ground instead of building an entirely new underground station, for example. Costs kept increasing – nothing new for big public infra projects, of course. But when a multi-billion euro project slowly triples its budget, people start asking questions. That way it also took away funding from other smaller necessary projects. One should consider here that DB (railway operator) has been shutting down smaller, rural lines for decades making it harder and harder to rely on them, when you don't live on the main intercity network. There were ecological concerns about the planned changes to Stuttgart's inner city layout and how it affects the already bad micro climate. Plus there was a general sense of the project being pushed through by stubborn DB officials and state government as a kind of vanity project despite the aforementioned concerns. They acted completely tone-deaf to the protests and in one instance used excessive police force to crush a peaceful assembly. Just altogether bad topics, which did not make the project more popular.
  - redprince 5y ago
    > Plus there was a general sense of the project being pushed through by stubborn DB officials and state government as a kind of vanity project despite the aforementioned concerns. A public referendum was held in 2011. 58.9% voted for the project to be continued.

R0b0t1 5y ago

Rail is great for freight but what surprised me was that while I was in Europe flights were faster and cheaper. I don't think the right reaction is to tax planes so that people don't use them, as time has value.

RC_ITR 5y ago
Argument is the externalities of carbon emissions have (negative) value, so a tax would bring those two things in line and encourage that only people who really need to fly do so.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  All other things equal you need to make a very strong case for externalities as the market is efficient. So far it's just people saying "planes are bad." It's entirely possible the externalities of having people (and goods) unproductive for longer periods of time is worse than simply getting them where they need to be.
  - philips 5y ago
    Without putting a price on the carbon externality the market can't figure it out though. Idle time of workers is a pretty well understood market problem so I don't think that is an externality. Am I misunderstanding your position?
  - RC_ITR 5y ago
    I mean, have you ever heard of tragedy of the commons? 1) All people share one atmosphere 2) Well-reviewed science shows that individual decisions like taking a flight make the atmosphere less hospitable for all. That type of problem is literally the reason the term externality was coined.
  - gautamcgoel 5y ago
    I'm a bit confused by what you mean by "strong case". Flying emits substantially more carbon dioxide (by more than a factor of 100, IIRC). The deleterious effects of increasing CO2 in the atmosphere are well-documented. Isn't that a strong enough case?

jokteur 5y ago

Both tunnels in Switzerland have already been operational. The Gotthard basis tunnel since 2016, and the Ceneri tunnel since 2020.

jacquesm 5y ago

Also: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica

andrewseanryan 5y ago
Our brains went to the same place. I posted the same link 3 minutes later haha
- jacquesm 5y ago
  :) For 'reasons' I would love it if that line opened up, it would make my life a whole lot easier. Better still if they make it run all the way to Amsterdam or Brussels. The Baltics are terribly isolated from the rest of Europe and it would be great if there was better connectivity.

andrewseanryan 5y ago

I'll add to your resources one more rail project. Rail Baltica which will connect Latvia, Estonia, Lithuania and Finland with Poland and therefore the rest of Europe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rail_Baltica