18 ms·

The Framework Laptop Is Great for a Linux-Friendly, Upgradeable/Modular Laptop

285 points by commoner 5y ago

mdp2021 5y ago
There are no fanless CPUs among the options, and the consumptions are not explicit. The only battery mentioned is 55Wh. CPUs with the lowest consumption are (sorry for the obvious points) -- battery efficient, allow for more work per charge; -- silent, requiring no fan; -- often cheaper; -- still quite fast for normal use. So, I would not do without...
- LeifCarrotson 5y ago
  CPUs with higher power consumption are: - Irrelevant regarding battery life because I can get from my office to the conference room to my shop to my home and back to my office long before the battery dies even with hamstrung sleep states in modern processors; everywhere I work it's plugged in to a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and wall socket and I can't understand why you would use it otherwise. - Still quiet, because the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work, and a large-diameter and thick fan doesn't have to spin like a jet turbine to cool it when it does need active cooling - Really, really cheap per hour to operate over years of critical usage; if I quote my time at $100/hr, use a computer for 40 hours a week for 100 weeks, and am more effective by even 1%, you could easily justify spending $4,000; realistically a bigger processor is far less than that. - Still quite fast even when I'm doing real work, unlike underpowered CPUs that throttle whenever I'm actually getting something done. so I would not work with an underpowered processor.
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    We are discussing a modular laptop with hardware options. You would not work with James' options, others would - and he surely would. > I can't understand why you would use it otherwise Clearly you don't. But some do use it otherwise. There are no power outlets from where I am writing these very words. > the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work So the fans are normally off? Are they on only after minutes of heavy load?
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    ...And I forgot about the side of ethics: electricity does not come from the energy harnessed by playing kittens and natural rubbing of sheeps in pastures. When computers can consume 0.3 or 3 instead of 30 or 300, it is just better - even a thousand times better.
  - TranquilMarmot 5y ago
    > Still quiet, because the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work, and a large-diameter and thick fan doesn't have to spin like a jet turbine to cool it when it does need active cooling Hmm... I have an i7 Framework (no VPro) and the fan on this things gets LOUD when it's under heavy load. Maybe I got used to my M1 Mac's fans never kicking on, but this thing is far from quiet. (I still love it though! Best laptop I've had in years)
kavalg 5y ago
Looks like this is the official site: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ "Framework Laptop starts at $999. DIY Edition configurable from $749." - that's for the base model. Unfortunately I didn't see the display specifications while configuring the product. That is a major factor when making a decision for me.
- yankcrime 5y ago
  The display specifications are shown here: https://frame.work/laptop https://frame.work/laptop 13.5” 3:2 2256x1504, 100% sRGB color gamut, and >400 nit
  - mdp2021 5y ago
    It is also IPS. From NotebookCheck: «13.50 inch 3:2, 2256 x 1504 pixel 201 PPI, BOE CQ NE135FBM-N41, IPS, BOE095F, glossy: yes, 60 Hz»; «Framework uses the exact same ... as found on the Acer Swift 3 SF313. ... wide color coverage and relatively high contrast ratio. Response times are slow». The issue is: being this "option" (without a clear alternative?) glossy instead of matte, the display also will require being a module as part of the modular framework.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  And one of the pictures from Larabel (third in first page, https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=framework-laptop&image=framework_laptop_12_med https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=framework-laptop&image... ) does not seem to show a matte display, though I am not sure... Edit: confirmed glossy on other reviews.
  - DoingIsLearning 5y ago
    I asked this question to Nirav, one of the founders in a previous HN thread about the laptop. He clarified that there is currently no matte option with no plans for display options. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948272 Perhaps if they realise there is a market that direction can be changed? (One can hope)
marcodiego 5y ago
From https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop : “ There has been immense interest in this configuration, with it outselling pre-configured systems with Windows 10 by a wide margin.” There is a market. And it is currently under-served.
- maltalex 5y ago
  Machines ordered without Windows won't necessarily end up running Linux. Many of them could end up running pirated Windows.
  - judge2020 5y ago
    Hackintoshing is also getting easier (save for amazing battery life) with OpenCore, perhaps a small subset end up doing that.
    - thereddaikon 5y ago
      It will get easier right up until x86 MacOS is no longer updated and then will immediately become a thing of the past.
      - judge2020 5y ago
        Monterey supports the 2013 Mac Pro and 2014 Mac Mini, so if we can expect only 8 years of actual OS support, we'll probably see 8 more years of OS updates for stuff like the 2020 Intel iMac and Intel Macbook Air & Pro. That's a long while before this becomes a possibility. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212551 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212551
        jagger27 5y ago
        As a particularly relevant counter example, the last PowerPC Macs were sold until August 2006. Mac OS X Leopard came out a year later in October 2007 and received its last patch (10.5.8) in August 2009. That's a lot less than 8 years. This is why when the first M1 Macs were announced I immediately sold my 16" i9 MacBook Pro and bought an M1 Air for much less than I sold the Intel machine for.
ranguna 5y ago
I just got a new laptop from tuxedo Computers because they had an i7 11800h option. Their laptops aren't modular but right now I'm valuing performance over modularity, maybe in the future my next laptop will be a framework one, hopefully they'll have top specs by then. Keep up the awesome work framework team!
atemerev 5y ago
“We only deliver to the US and Canada”. OK, will have to stay with my Macbook.
- orangepurple 5y ago
  There are plenty of ways to shop in the USA and get your products shipped to another country. Example: https://www.viabox.com/ https://www.viabox.com/
  - nrp 5y ago
    Just a heads up that we’re only able to offer warranty service in countries we are shipping in.
- dagw 5y ago
  Yea, say what you want about Apple, but they seem to be one of the few tech companies that manage to ship all their products in all their configurations to almost all countries. So many times I read a review for something interesting sounding only to find out that that version isn't sold where I happen to live.
  - throwaway473825 5y ago
    Yeah, but Apple also charges a hefty premium outside the US. Just look at the prices of Apple products in the US and the EU, and then compare with Samsung/Google/OnePlus. Whatever makes Apple products more expensive in the EU doesn't appear to apply to anyone else.
    - y7 5y ago
      Maybe it's related to the warranty? Apple sells AppleCare separately, but it's basically a warranty that's already guaranteed under EU consumer law. So in the EU they should factor this into the price.
      - sneak 5y ago
jacknews 5y ago
I love the idea of modular, upgradable, and especially linux-friendly. But, because modular, I'd like a Framework Surface. Having the screen, keyboard, touchpad, computer, etc all integrated into a single device, seems like far too many factors and constraints to be able to reach perfection. Better to split at least the keyboard and pointing device, so you can pick and choose.
- kall 5y ago
  That would be very interesting. Maybe I could finally fulfill my dream of a portable system that can raise the display to eye level while keeping the keyboard at an ergonomic level. I‘m surprised no one else seems to want this. Imagine if you could clip your screen onto the headrest in front of you. Wouldn‘t that be a huge improvement?
  - d3nj4l 5y ago
    Imagine if you could clip your screen onto the headrest in front of you That's just a VR headset!
    - spicybright 5y ago
      Not really.
      - d3nj4l 5y ago
        Yes, it's worse than a VR headset!
  - fleaaaa 5y ago
    This sounds a lot promising, why haven't I thought this? Portable builtin monitor arm must be painful HW engineering but I can see myself very easily enjoying this feature.
  - Hemospectrum 5y ago
    For a few years now I’ve wished for this kind of thing. After I sketched out a couple of concepts, the approach that looked most viable was to build a folding keyboard case where the lid opens up into a tablet stand. This hugely reduces the scope of the design problem, because PCB mounting holes for mechanical 60% keyboards are more or less standardized, and tablets are obviously commodities. Even so, this is easier said than done. I didn’t (and still don’t) have enough experience designing things with hinges; I don’t know how to make things thin, light, easy to build, yet still strong enough to throw around; and I could never decide what to do about mice.
0des 5y ago
Can't wait for them to offer AMD systems. It's a preference of mine to not use Intel products.
- lucian1900 5y ago
  They also tend to use a bit less power.
- fsflover 5y ago
  Actually you can at least disable Intel ME, but you can do nothing with AMD PSP.
  - 0des 5y ago
    Thank you for the reply, however, I cannot disable my personal values and preferences.
    - fsflover 5y ago
      Could you tell us what are they based on? My ones are on security and control.
      - unethical_ban 5y ago
        Without knowing or caring about ME or PSP, perhaps they mean the behavior of AMD the company vs. Intel the company. I am an AMD man as often as possible for this reason.
        fsflover 5y ago
        > perhaps they mean the behavior of AMD the company vs. Intel the company In short: "There is a computer inside your computer. And it can computer while you computer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
        deleted 5y ago
Causality1 5y ago
I'm itching for the day Framework starts offering a touchpad with physical mouse buttons.
- bigyellow 5y ago
  Same, really not a fan of the dumbed-down Apple look laptops are heading in. Look to old school Thinkpads if you want "Linux-friendly" inspiration.
  - Causality1 5y ago
    I just don't understand how everyone but me seems to just be okay with not knowing where left click stops and right click starts. They're just fine with having the pointer jiggle around whenever they click because their thumb doesn't stay perfectly centered while pressing down. How do people live like this?
    - xanaxagoras 5y ago
      it's not hard, here's how i do it on a laptop w/gnome: left click -> entire trackpad right click -> 2 fingers entire trackpad or control + entire trackpad
      - mdp2021 5y ago
        Try the "two fingers for right" with the [Alt] modifier to resize a window... Mine will simulate the mouse wheel instead.
    - Mikeb85 5y ago
      Tap to click. No one actually physically clicks the corner of the touchpad.
      - joombaga 5y ago
        I physically click the corner of the touchpad (or 2 finger click).
demux 5y ago
Has anyone had luck with framework and openbsd? I'm having network card driver issues OOTB
- pehtis 5y ago
  There is a very nice writeup on using OpenBSD on the Framework laptop by joshua stein, one of the OpenBSD developers. Unfortunately he had to swap the wifi card as it was unsupported. https://jcs.org/2021/08/06/framework https://jcs.org/2021/08/06/framework
LNSY 5y ago
I'm left handed and track-pads have never agreed with me. Other people on this site have recommended the MNT Reform to me: https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform It seems like a different flavor of an open source laptop that people who want a better keyboard and has the option of a trackball (!!!) instead of the trackpad. I think the MNT is going to be my next laptop, but the Frame.work is pretty cool.
- slantyyz 5y ago
  Oh wow, the MNT is surprisingly cool. It reminds me of the Apple PowerBook 170 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_170 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_170) I had in the early 90s. I loved the trackball on those early PowerBooks.
- pengaru 5y ago
  The mnt is far more open as well, but there's no comparison in the performance department... you'd have to treat the mnt more like a very underpowered, memory-constrained netbook.
  - LNSY 5y ago
    My current laptop is a Thinkpad X200t from 10+ years ago. The MNT has a modern GPU and a nice keyboard. I think it's going to work quite well.
    - pengaru 5y ago
      Maybe, at least that era of Core 2 Duo thinkpads supported 8G of RAM... I was in a similar boat until last year when I switched from a modded x61s to an x220 i7 then x230 i7 w/16GB which I'm still using and cost under $300 on ebay. The HD4000 iGPU is at least Vulkan capable. It's really unfortunate the imx8 SoC didn't have even an 8GB variant. The fact that you can get a raspberry pi with more memory than the Reform is such a bummer.
      - elcritch 5y ago
0xdeadbeefbabe 5y ago
This discussion on coreboot looks good https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only/791/2 https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only.... How much innovation can one company do though?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
kkielhofner 5y ago
Note that if you’re building a framework with the intent of using Linux avoid the “vpro” variant of the Intel wireless adapter: https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on-the-framework-laptop/1844 https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on... Last I checked with every recommended config tweak you still lose ~3% battery per hour of suspend, which really adds up and is extremely annoying. We’ve been asking framework to include a notice referencing this issue when configuring but as of the last time I checked they haven’t.
- nrp 5y ago
  We added a note to the FAQ on the configurator page, but we’ll think through how we can do a more prominent warning.
  - kkielhofner 5y ago
    Thanks for the reply! Certainly a step in the right direction but given the significance of the issue (and unknown response time from Intel) a warning should display whenever the vpro hardware is selected in the configurator. Because of this issue I have to carefully plan when to suspend my laptop -or- shut it down every time. At this point I’d also be happy to buy a new non-vpro replacement from you but I don’t seem to be able to.
    - oneplane 5y ago
      You used to be able to disable vPro features using on-board MEBx jumpers but I bet that has changed in the last 5 or so revisions of that feature. It used to be that you simply had an S3/4/5-Off setting that powered down the CSME and any vPro NICs. Some implementations did leave WoL on for Ethernet links.
    - eu 5y ago
      Im in the same boat. Love the product but the battery in sleep mode is pretty bad :(
- smeej 5y ago
aunty_helen 5y ago
I can’t wait until they offer amd ryzen and come in a 15-16 inch form factor… no really I can’t wait, I ordered a framework yesterday tehehe If it’s good and I want to continue with it as my daily I’ll keep supporting them when the bigger ryznier laptops ship too.
- icu 5y ago
  I'm with you 100%... I'm holding out for a 15" Ryzen Framework laptop
humanwhosits 5y ago
Are there any places (stores/conferences/meetups/etc) where we can feel the device. I like to type on a keyboard for a few minutes before committing to ensure it feels ok for my wrists
- bhelkey 5y ago
  It would probably help to specify your location.
  - humanwhosits 5y ago
    SF Bay Area
_qbjt 5y ago
I'm typing this on my Framework now and I have to say it really is a special device. The prevailing culture of treating technology as disposable is something I personally don't vibe with - I always keep all of my tech and have collected machines over the years that most people would probably consider obsolete and uninteresting (there's an Amiga 1000 and iMac G3 currently in my field of view). Having a fully open machine that I can customize, upgrade and repair for the foreseeable future is just so cool and makes me feel like this is my personal computer in the truest sense of the word! A few takeaways from using it for around a month now: 1. This is the most "premium" feeling non-Apple laptop I've ever owned. Most of the laptops I've ever daily driven are Macs or Thinkpads so take that for what it's worth, but I think most people will be happy with the fit and finish of this device. 2. The swappable port system is actually a lot more useful than I expected. I initially thought it would be something I set up once and didn't bother with again for a while but there are a lot of random moments where it comes in handy. I'm kind of a messy, hyper person that periodically reorganizes my desk and I like to move between different workspaces when I need a different setting to feel creative. Being able to move my HDMI or USB-C ports around for better cable management is so nice and yeah I could use an external hub but I've always found those to be annoying on-the-go and just "feels bad man". Also I don't use Micro SD cards as much as other people but there are times when I do and being able to swap that in is really kewl. 3. Linux support is amazing but there are still a few hiccups. I use Arch Linux and everything works perfectly except for one minor inconvenience with Bluetooth: on a soft restart, the Bluetooth is disabled and I have to do a hard restart to restore it (can be mitigated by a kernel downgrade and should be fixed in a future update). It's not a deal breaker for me as I usually just close my laptop and put it to sleep, but just know that it's like running Linux on most other computers - you're going to have a much better time if you're fluent in tinkering and configuring your OS. 4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it. My only criticism is that it's not a touch screen but with how modular this laptop is it's only a matter of time before that becomes an option.
- burnt_toast 5y ago
  Thank you for posting this! I run linux on two XPS 15s and I love them but after manually repairing one and not being able to easily find parts for it it left me a little salty. My next laptop will most definitely be a framework one! Your second point about the swappable ports finally made me realize it's not a gimmick. I don't know why but I think just because it's different I was a little apprehensive about it. The thought of being able to reconfigure it to avoid a dongle or hub is great.
aidenn0 5y ago
The Framework Laptop is literally the first time ever I've seen a laptop and wished I was at the point in my upgrade-cycle to get a new laptop. Right now I have 2-3 more years of use out of my current laptop before I upgrade though.
- mkaic 5y ago
  On the bright side, that means that even cooler second or third gen Frameworks will be available when you do end up upgrading!
  - aidenn0 5y ago
    I really hope so. The alternative is they could go out of business (even with demand being good, supply-chain logistics is challenging right now)
- breakingcups 5y ago
  I'm kind of in the exact opposite boat. I've waited for a while to buy one because this laptop is coming, but I still can't buy it in Europe!
  - monopoledance 5y ago
    They shared an update on the Europe situation via newsletter: > "With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you can order a laptop if you're outside of the U.S and Canada. We selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization for the Framework website, support documentation, and checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it's actually a drastically simplified summary. Supply and logistics crunches slowed down parts of it, but we are moving forward on all fronts. We'll open pre-ordering in the next few countries before the end of the year for shipment in early 2022. We'll share the exact month of shipment at the time we open pre-orders."
skrtskrt 5y ago
Gotta have the option to have the super key not have the windows logo
- julianlam 5y ago
  Tux the penguin would be great
sdorf 5y ago
I've been using mine (min-spec 1135 DIY) for ~4 days on Sway+Manjaro; the hardware feels really good and for all the considerations made towards repairability, it feels like a no-compromises premium piece of hardware. It was nice to be able to take hardware that I have laying around (i.e. SSD and RAM) and put it to use. The biggest disappointment so far is directly related to the processor offering: - It feels like it warms up pretty quickly doing small things and starts spinning up the fan - s2 ("deep") sleep works out-of-the-box but drains battery way faster than I'd like Some of this kind of stuff may be related to the modularity of the laptop (e.g. bigger power draw of the less power-efficient non-soldered components), but I think a lot of the blame lies with Intel's offerings & hopefully things take a turn in this space for the better. I'd love to see e.g. an M1-style ARM offering from someone that runs linux and is offered in a package like Framework's. The trackpad is probably pretty good for a 'windows laptop', but just doesn't feel as good as the one on even my 2015 Macbook (and I don't think it fundamentally can be as good with a physical 'pivot-based' click approach compared to the simulated haptic approach on the Mac). It really does feel like a compromise on usability when you see how good the basics can be on e.g. the new Macs. I don't think it's Framework's fault and the ecosystem here just needs to improve. Based on what I've seen so far, I think this really is a game-changer for people who want a first-class linux-compatible laptop with less compromises (both 'ethically' and from a hardware perspective), and I'm really looking forward to how Framework continues to improve the offering and innovate in this space. I'm giving it a try as a daily driver for a few weeks. I need a linux laptop for some of my hobbies and the Framework still feels like the best choice for me (including some of the Thinkpads I was looking at... hard pass on the 16:9 offerings, the 3:2 on the Framework is really nice), but I think it'll be hard to swap off of the Mac for the day-to-day usability "basics".
- GekkePrutser 5y ago
  That battery drain might be caused by that vPro issue someone mentioned above.
  - sdorf 5y ago
    I ordered the module without vPro, so I don't believe that should be the case. I've heard a ~3% drain rate per hour and that about lines up with what I'm seeing... i.e. if I'm working on one of my hobby projects and want to shelve things with all the same context I can't just "close the laptop" and come back to things a few days later without juggling the laptop on a charger at some point.
unstatusthequo 5y ago
Buying a Framework laptop today! Love the mission here.
dartharva 5y ago
Am I the only one who just can't work with small laptops? I know and love the concept of the Framework laptop, but won't be able to contemplate buying one simply because it retains a Macbook-like form factor instead of a rugged 15" one with a tactile keyboard.
- Vrondi 5y ago
  I love small laptops, but I hate the Macbook knock-off appearance and the giant trackpad.
hyperstar 5y ago
I'm impressed by the (allegedly) tactile and clear keyboard https://frame.work/blog/the-keyboard https://frame.work/blog/the-keyboard but I'd be delighted to see a happy-hacking style layout, where the arrow keys are consigned to the fn layer (which should be configurable; the whole keyboard could be configurable by qmk). It would also be nice to see an option where the trackpad is replaced by a foldable joystick. Maybe this way one could get rid of the split (arrow) key and the short f keys and the short escape. Think of the vi users.
dgregd 5y ago
I would love to see a keyboard with an ortholinear layout [1] for the Framework Laptop. After switch to a dactyl manuform keyboard it is really painful to go back to a typical staggered layout. Touch typing is much easier and more natural when using a good ortholinear layout. [1] https://mechlounge.com/interesting-ortho-ergo-keyboards/ https://mechlounge.com/interesting-ortho-ergo-keyboards/
yumraj 5y ago
In the hope that someone from Framework is reading, a 15" with 4K screen would be very nice - pretty please.
kowalej 5y ago
I also have issues with vPro battery drain. I accidently bought the vPro AX210 wifi module, with a non vPro capable processor, but it still seems to cause issues. I guess it's a wifi module specific problem, even though vPro should not be enabled on the system?
smeej 5y ago
I'm a couple days late to comment here, but I want to add the negative review I wish I'd read. Linux support on the Framework is really poor, and that was especially disappointing to me since that was one of the top reasons I bought it. Right on their install guidelines, it says to use 20.04 instead of 20.10 for Ubuntu or else WiFi may not work out of the box. Fine. Did that. But then there's a whole host of other problems. It will drain 30%+ of your battery overnight while "sleeping." You can get it down to about 20% by using "deep" sleep, but then your trackpad settings won't persist (scrolling will switch directions, speed will change) and your WiFi chip will be slow upon waking. It's also SLOW. I have 64 GB of RAM in this thing and even out of the box it takes double-digit seconds to open anything. I also don't buy the "premium" feel people are talking about. My hinges are loose enough that the screen wobbles. Pushing down on the casing around the keyboard makes annoying clicking noises. I've opened it up and can see no reason for this other than an improper fit of the frame. I bought the hype, and I spent a lot more money than I've ever spent on a computer before for something that will sit on my desk and collect dust. I'm incredibly disappointed and feel like I was sold a bill of goods here. Don't make the same mistake. If you want real Linux support, buy something that has stood the test of time. Or, heck, buy a 2015 Chromebook Pixel and run Lubuntu on it with chrx. I'm still using that box over this one. It's a better experience and a much more premium device than this, even though I won't be able to repair it. But even after 6 years of frequent usage, its battery outlasts the Framework 6:1.

285 points by commoner 5y ago

mdp2021 5y ago

There are no fanless CPUs among the options, and the consumptions are not explicit. The only battery mentioned is 55Wh. CPUs with the lowest consumption are (sorry for the obvious points) -- battery efficient, allow for more work per charge; -- silent, requiring no fan; -- often cheaper; -- still quite fast for normal use. So, I would not do without...

LeifCarrotson 5y ago
CPUs with higher power consumption are: - Irrelevant regarding battery life because I can get from my office to the conference room to my shop to my home and back to my office long before the battery dies even with hamstrung sleep states in modern processors; everywhere I work it's plugged in to a monitor, keyboard, mouse, and wall socket and I can't understand why you would use it otherwise. - Still quiet, because the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work, and a large-diameter and thick fan doesn't have to spin like a jet turbine to cool it when it does need active cooling - Really, really cheap per hour to operate over years of critical usage; if I quote my time at $100/hr, use a computer for 40 hours a week for 100 weeks, and am more effective by even 1%, you could easily justify spending $4,000; realistically a bigger processor is far less than that. - Still quite fast even when I'm doing real work, unlike underpowered CPUs that throttle whenever I'm actually getting something done. so I would not work with an underpowered processor.
- mdp2021 5y ago
  We are discussing a modular laptop with hardware options. You would not work with James' options, others would - and he surely would. > I can't understand why you would use it otherwise Clearly you don't. But some do use it otherwise. There are no power outlets from where I am writing these very words. > the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work So the fans are normally off? Are they on only after minutes of heavy load?
- mdp2021 5y ago
  ...And I forgot about the side of ethics: electricity does not come from the energy harnessed by playing kittens and natural rubbing of sheeps in pastures. When computers can consume 0.3 or 3 instead of 30 or 300, it is just better - even a thousand times better.
- TranquilMarmot 5y ago
  > Still quiet, because the large heatsink is able to cool it while doing little work, and a large-diameter and thick fan doesn't have to spin like a jet turbine to cool it when it does need active cooling Hmm... I have an i7 Framework (no VPro) and the fan on this things gets LOUD when it's under heavy load. Maybe I got used to my M1 Mac's fans never kicking on, but this thing is far from quiet. (I still love it though! Best laptop I've had in years)

kavalg 5y ago

Looks like this is the official site: https://frame.work/ https://frame.work/ "Framework Laptop starts at $999. DIY Edition configurable from $749." - that's for the base model. Unfortunately I didn't see the display specifications while configuring the product. That is a major factor when making a decision for me.

yankcrime 5y ago
The display specifications are shown here: https://frame.work/laptop https://frame.work/laptop 13.5” 3:2 2256x1504, 100% sRGB color gamut, and >400 nit
- mdp2021 5y ago
  It is also IPS. From NotebookCheck: «13.50 inch 3:2, 2256 x 1504 pixel 201 PPI, BOE CQ NE135FBM-N41, IPS, BOE095F, glossy: yes, 60 Hz»; «Framework uses the exact same ... as found on the Acer Swift 3 SF313. ... wide color coverage and relatively high contrast ratio. Response times are slow». The issue is: being this "option" (without a clear alternative?) glossy instead of matte, the display also will require being a module as part of the modular framework.
mdp2021 5y ago
And one of the pictures from Larabel (third in first page, https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=framework-laptop&image=framework_laptop_12_med https://www.phoronix.net/image.php?id=framework-laptop&image... ) does not seem to show a matte display, though I am not sure... Edit: confirmed glossy on other reviews.
- DoingIsLearning 5y ago
  I asked this question to Nirav, one of the founders in a previous HN thread about the laptop. He clarified that there is currently no matte option with no plans for display options. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948272 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=27948272 Perhaps if they realise there is a market that direction can be changed? (One can hope)

marcodiego 5y ago

From https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop https://frame.work/blog/linux-on-the-framework-laptop : “ There has been immense interest in this configuration, with it outselling pre-configured systems with Windows 10 by a wide margin.” There is a market. And it is currently under-served.

maltalex 5y ago
Machines ordered without Windows won't necessarily end up running Linux. Many of them could end up running pirated Windows.
- judge2020 5y ago
  Hackintoshing is also getting easier (save for amazing battery life) with OpenCore, perhaps a small subset end up doing that.
  - thereddaikon 5y ago
    It will get easier right up until x86 MacOS is no longer updated and then will immediately become a thing of the past.
    - judge2020 5y ago
      Monterey supports the 2013 Mac Pro and 2014 Mac Mini, so if we can expect only 8 years of actual OS support, we'll probably see 8 more years of OS updates for stuff like the 2020 Intel iMac and Intel Macbook Air & Pro. That's a long while before this becomes a possibility. https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212551 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT212551
      - jagger27 5y ago
        As a particularly relevant counter example, the last PowerPC Macs were sold until August 2006. Mac OS X Leopard came out a year later in October 2007 and received its last patch (10.5.8) in August 2009. That's a lot less than 8 years. This is why when the first M1 Macs were announced I immediately sold my 16" i9 MacBook Pro and bought an M1 Air for much less than I sold the Intel machine for.

ranguna 5y ago

I just got a new laptop from tuxedo Computers because they had an i7 11800h option. Their laptops aren't modular but right now I'm valuing performance over modularity, maybe in the future my next laptop will be a framework one, hopefully they'll have top specs by then. Keep up the awesome work framework team!

atemerev 5y ago

“We only deliver to the US and Canada”. OK, will have to stay with my Macbook.

orangepurple 5y ago
There are plenty of ways to shop in the USA and get your products shipped to another country. Example: https://www.viabox.com/ https://www.viabox.com/
- nrp 5y ago
  Just a heads up that we’re only able to offer warranty service in countries we are shipping in.
dagw 5y ago
Yea, say what you want about Apple, but they seem to be one of the few tech companies that manage to ship all their products in all their configurations to almost all countries. So many times I read a review for something interesting sounding only to find out that that version isn't sold where I happen to live.
- throwaway473825 5y ago
  Yeah, but Apple also charges a hefty premium outside the US. Just look at the prices of Apple products in the US and the EU, and then compare with Samsung/Google/OnePlus. Whatever makes Apple products more expensive in the EU doesn't appear to apply to anyone else.
  - y7 5y ago
    Maybe it's related to the warranty? Apple sells AppleCare separately, but it's basically a warranty that's already guaranteed under EU consumer law. So in the EU they should factor this into the price.
    - sneak 5y ago

jacknews 5y ago

I love the idea of modular, upgradable, and especially linux-friendly. But, because modular, I'd like a Framework Surface. Having the screen, keyboard, touchpad, computer, etc all integrated into a single device, seems like far too many factors and constraints to be able to reach perfection. Better to split at least the keyboard and pointing device, so you can pick and choose.

kall 5y ago
That would be very interesting. Maybe I could finally fulfill my dream of a portable system that can raise the display to eye level while keeping the keyboard at an ergonomic level. I‘m surprised no one else seems to want this. Imagine if you could clip your screen onto the headrest in front of you. Wouldn‘t that be a huge improvement?
- d3nj4l 5y ago
  Imagine if you could clip your screen onto the headrest in front of you That's just a VR headset!
  - spicybright 5y ago
    Not really.
    - d3nj4l 5y ago
      Yes, it's worse than a VR headset!
- fleaaaa 5y ago
  This sounds a lot promising, why haven't I thought this? Portable builtin monitor arm must be painful HW engineering but I can see myself very easily enjoying this feature.
- Hemospectrum 5y ago
  For a few years now I’ve wished for this kind of thing. After I sketched out a couple of concepts, the approach that looked most viable was to build a folding keyboard case where the lid opens up into a tablet stand. This hugely reduces the scope of the design problem, because PCB mounting holes for mechanical 60% keyboards are more or less standardized, and tablets are obviously commodities. Even so, this is easier said than done. I didn’t (and still don’t) have enough experience designing things with hinges; I don’t know how to make things thin, light, easy to build, yet still strong enough to throw around; and I could never decide what to do about mice.

0des 5y ago

Can't wait for them to offer AMD systems. It's a preference of mine to not use Intel products.

lucian1900 5y ago
They also tend to use a bit less power.
fsflover 5y ago
Actually you can at least disable Intel ME, but you can do nothing with AMD PSP.
- 0des 5y ago
  Thank you for the reply, however, I cannot disable my personal values and preferences.
  - fsflover 5y ago
    Could you tell us what are they based on? My ones are on security and control.
    - unethical_ban 5y ago
      Without knowing or caring about ME or PSP, perhaps they mean the behavior of AMD the company vs. Intel the company. I am an AMD man as often as possible for this reason.
      - fsflover 5y ago
        > perhaps they mean the behavior of AMD the company vs. Intel the company In short: "There is a computer inside your computer. And it can computer while you computer" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intel_Management_Engine
        deleted 5y ago

Causality1 5y ago

I'm itching for the day Framework starts offering a touchpad with physical mouse buttons.

bigyellow 5y ago
Same, really not a fan of the dumbed-down Apple look laptops are heading in. Look to old school Thinkpads if you want "Linux-friendly" inspiration.
- Causality1 5y ago
  I just don't understand how everyone but me seems to just be okay with not knowing where left click stops and right click starts. They're just fine with having the pointer jiggle around whenever they click because their thumb doesn't stay perfectly centered while pressing down. How do people live like this?
  - xanaxagoras 5y ago
    it's not hard, here's how i do it on a laptop w/gnome: left click -> entire trackpad right click -> 2 fingers entire trackpad or control + entire trackpad
    - mdp2021 5y ago
      Try the "two fingers for right" with the [Alt] modifier to resize a window... Mine will simulate the mouse wheel instead.
  - Mikeb85 5y ago
    Tap to click. No one actually physically clicks the corner of the touchpad.
    - joombaga 5y ago
      I physically click the corner of the touchpad (or 2 finger click).

demux 5y ago

Has anyone had luck with framework and openbsd? I'm having network card driver issues OOTB

pehtis 5y ago
There is a very nice writeup on using OpenBSD on the Framework laptop by joshua stein, one of the OpenBSD developers. Unfortunately he had to swap the wifi card as it was unsupported. https://jcs.org/2021/08/06/framework https://jcs.org/2021/08/06/framework

LNSY 5y ago

I'm left handed and track-pads have never agreed with me. Other people on this site have recommended the MNT Reform to me: https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform https://www.crowdsupply.com/mnt/reform It seems like a different flavor of an open source laptop that people who want a better keyboard and has the option of a trackball (!!!) instead of the trackpad. I think the MNT is going to be my next laptop, but the Frame.work is pretty cool.

slantyyz 5y ago
Oh wow, the MNT is surprisingly cool. It reminds me of the Apple PowerBook 170 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_170 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PowerBook_170) I had in the early 90s. I loved the trackball on those early PowerBooks.
pengaru 5y ago
The mnt is far more open as well, but there's no comparison in the performance department... you'd have to treat the mnt more like a very underpowered, memory-constrained netbook.
- LNSY 5y ago
  My current laptop is a Thinkpad X200t from 10+ years ago. The MNT has a modern GPU and a nice keyboard. I think it's going to work quite well.
  - pengaru 5y ago
    Maybe, at least that era of Core 2 Duo thinkpads supported 8G of RAM... I was in a similar boat until last year when I switched from a modded x61s to an x220 i7 then x230 i7 w/16GB which I'm still using and cost under $300 on ebay. The HD4000 iGPU is at least Vulkan capable. It's really unfortunate the imx8 SoC didn't have even an 8GB variant. The fact that you can get a raspberry pi with more memory than the Reform is such a bummer.
    - elcritch 5y ago

0xdeadbeefbabe 5y ago

This discussion on coreboot looks good https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only/791/2 https://community.frame.work/t/free-the-ec-and-coreboot-only.... How much innovation can one company do though?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

kkielhofner 5y ago

Note that if you’re building a framework with the intent of using Linux avoid the “vpro” variant of the Intel wireless adapter: https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on-the-framework-laptop/1844 https://community.frame.work/t/using-the-ax210-with-linux-on... Last I checked with every recommended config tweak you still lose ~3% battery per hour of suspend, which really adds up and is extremely annoying. We’ve been asking framework to include a notice referencing this issue when configuring but as of the last time I checked they haven’t.

nrp 5y ago
We added a note to the FAQ on the configurator page, but we’ll think through how we can do a more prominent warning.
- kkielhofner 5y ago
  Thanks for the reply! Certainly a step in the right direction but given the significance of the issue (and unknown response time from Intel) a warning should display whenever the vpro hardware is selected in the configurator. Because of this issue I have to carefully plan when to suspend my laptop -or- shut it down every time. At this point I’d also be happy to buy a new non-vpro replacement from you but I don’t seem to be able to.
  - oneplane 5y ago
    You used to be able to disable vPro features using on-board MEBx jumpers but I bet that has changed in the last 5 or so revisions of that feature. It used to be that you simply had an S3/4/5-Off setting that powered down the CSME and any vPro NICs. Some implementations did leave WoL on for Ethernet links.
  - eu 5y ago
    Im in the same boat. Love the product but the battery in sleep mode is pretty bad :(
smeej 5y ago

aunty_helen 5y ago

I can’t wait until they offer amd ryzen and come in a 15-16 inch form factor… no really I can’t wait, I ordered a framework yesterday tehehe If it’s good and I want to continue with it as my daily I’ll keep supporting them when the bigger ryznier laptops ship too.

icu 5y ago
I'm with you 100%... I'm holding out for a 15" Ryzen Framework laptop

humanwhosits 5y ago

Are there any places (stores/conferences/meetups/etc) where we can feel the device. I like to type on a keyboard for a few minutes before committing to ensure it feels ok for my wrists

bhelkey 5y ago
It would probably help to specify your location.
- humanwhosits 5y ago
  SF Bay Area

_qbjt 5y ago

I'm typing this on my Framework now and I have to say it really is a special device. The prevailing culture of treating technology as disposable is something I personally don't vibe with - I always keep all of my tech and have collected machines over the years that most people would probably consider obsolete and uninteresting (there's an Amiga 1000 and iMac G3 currently in my field of view). Having a fully open machine that I can customize, upgrade and repair for the foreseeable future is just so cool and makes me feel like this is my personal computer in the truest sense of the word! A few takeaways from using it for around a month now: 1. This is the most "premium" feeling non-Apple laptop I've ever owned. Most of the laptops I've ever daily driven are Macs or Thinkpads so take that for what it's worth, but I think most people will be happy with the fit and finish of this device. 2. The swappable port system is actually a lot more useful than I expected. I initially thought it would be something I set up once and didn't bother with again for a while but there are a lot of random moments where it comes in handy. I'm kind of a messy, hyper person that periodically reorganizes my desk and I like to move between different workspaces when I need a different setting to feel creative. Being able to move my HDMI or USB-C ports around for better cable management is so nice and yeah I could use an external hub but I've always found those to be annoying on-the-go and just "feels bad man". Also I don't use Micro SD cards as much as other people but there are times when I do and being able to swap that in is really kewl. 3. Linux support is amazing but there are still a few hiccups. I use Arch Linux and everything works perfectly except for one minor inconvenience with Bluetooth: on a soft restart, the Bluetooth is disabled and I have to do a hard restart to restore it (can be mitigated by a kernel downgrade and should be fixed in a future update). It's not a deal breaker for me as I usually just close my laptop and put it to sleep, but just know that it's like running Linux on most other computers - you're going to have a much better time if you're fluent in tinkering and configuring your OS. 4. The 3:2 display is awesome for programming and content creation, and I don't know why more devices don't adopt it. My only criticism is that it's not a touch screen but with how modular this laptop is it's only a matter of time before that becomes an option.

burnt_toast 5y ago
Thank you for posting this! I run linux on two XPS 15s and I love them but after manually repairing one and not being able to easily find parts for it it left me a little salty. My next laptop will most definitely be a framework one! Your second point about the swappable ports finally made me realize it's not a gimmick. I don't know why but I think just because it's different I was a little apprehensive about it. The thought of being able to reconfigure it to avoid a dongle or hub is great.

aidenn0 5y ago

The Framework Laptop is literally the first time ever I've seen a laptop and wished I was at the point in my upgrade-cycle to get a new laptop. Right now I have 2-3 more years of use out of my current laptop before I upgrade though.

mkaic 5y ago
On the bright side, that means that even cooler second or third gen Frameworks will be available when you do end up upgrading!
- aidenn0 5y ago
  I really hope so. The alternative is they could go out of business (even with demand being good, supply-chain logistics is challenging right now)
breakingcups 5y ago
I'm kind of in the exact opposite boat. I've waited for a while to buy one because this laptop is coming, but I still can't buy it in Europe!
- monopoledance 5y ago
  They shared an update on the Europe situation via newsletter: > "With our supply improving, you may be wondering when you can order a laptop if you're outside of the U.S and Canada. We selected and are bringing up our worldwide warehousing and fulfillment partner, which is one very key part of the equation, but it takes quite a lot more than that to enable a complete experience in each country. Picking Germany as one example, we need German language keyboards, a Type F power cable, in-box paperwork and labeling in German, localization for the Framework website, support documentation, and checkout flow, support for local payment methods, calculation of Euro prices and taxes, accounting support for German income, creation of legally sound Terms of Sale, Privacy, and Warranty policies for Germany, CE certifications, a local Authorized Representative to back up the certifications, determination of HS codes and tariffs, an Importer of Record to be able to deliver duty paid, German-language in-time-zone customer support, reverse logistics and RMA support for returns and repairs, region-specific sourcing of off the shelf memory and storage, trial builds of German laptops prior to production, and back-end ERP infrastructure to tie all of this together. That sounds like a lot, but it's actually a drastically simplified summary. Supply and logistics crunches slowed down parts of it, but we are moving forward on all fronts. We'll open pre-ordering in the next few countries before the end of the year for shipment in early 2022. We'll share the exact month of shipment at the time we open pre-orders."

skrtskrt 5y ago

Gotta have the option to have the super key not have the windows logo

julianlam 5y ago
Tux the penguin would be great

sdorf 5y ago

I've been using mine (min-spec 1135 DIY) for ~4 days on Sway+Manjaro; the hardware feels really good and for all the considerations made towards repairability, it feels like a no-compromises premium piece of hardware. It was nice to be able to take hardware that I have laying around (i.e. SSD and RAM) and put it to use. The biggest disappointment so far is directly related to the processor offering: - It feels like it warms up pretty quickly doing small things and starts spinning up the fan - s2 ("deep") sleep works out-of-the-box but drains battery way faster than I'd like Some of this kind of stuff may be related to the modularity of the laptop (e.g. bigger power draw of the less power-efficient non-soldered components), but I think a lot of the blame lies with Intel's offerings & hopefully things take a turn in this space for the better. I'd love to see e.g. an M1-style ARM offering from someone that runs linux and is offered in a package like Framework's. The trackpad is probably pretty good for a 'windows laptop', but just doesn't feel as good as the one on even my 2015 Macbook (and I don't think it fundamentally can be as good with a physical 'pivot-based' click approach compared to the simulated haptic approach on the Mac). It really does feel like a compromise on usability when you see how good the basics can be on e.g. the new Macs. I don't think it's Framework's fault and the ecosystem here just needs to improve. Based on what I've seen so far, I think this really is a game-changer for people who want a first-class linux-compatible laptop with less compromises (both 'ethically' and from a hardware perspective), and I'm really looking forward to how Framework continues to improve the offering and innovate in this space. I'm giving it a try as a daily driver for a few weeks. I need a linux laptop for some of my hobbies and the Framework still feels like the best choice for me (including some of the Thinkpads I was looking at... hard pass on the 16:9 offerings, the 3:2 on the Framework is really nice), but I think it'll be hard to swap off of the Mac for the day-to-day usability "basics".

GekkePrutser 5y ago
That battery drain might be caused by that vPro issue someone mentioned above.
- sdorf 5y ago
  I ordered the module without vPro, so I don't believe that should be the case. I've heard a ~3% drain rate per hour and that about lines up with what I'm seeing... i.e. if I'm working on one of my hobby projects and want to shelve things with all the same context I can't just "close the laptop" and come back to things a few days later without juggling the laptop on a charger at some point.

unstatusthequo 5y ago

Buying a Framework laptop today! Love the mission here.

dartharva 5y ago

Am I the only one who just can't work with small laptops? I know and love the concept of the Framework laptop, but won't be able to contemplate buying one simply because it retains a Macbook-like form factor instead of a rugged 15" one with a tactile keyboard.

Vrondi 5y ago
I love small laptops, but I hate the Macbook knock-off appearance and the giant trackpad.

hyperstar 5y ago

I'm impressed by the (allegedly) tactile and clear keyboard https://frame.work/blog/the-keyboard https://frame.work/blog/the-keyboard but I'd be delighted to see a happy-hacking style layout, where the arrow keys are consigned to the fn layer (which should be configurable; the whole keyboard could be configurable by qmk). It would also be nice to see an option where the trackpad is replaced by a foldable joystick. Maybe this way one could get rid of the split (arrow) key and the short f keys and the short escape. Think of the vi users.

dgregd 5y ago

I would love to see a keyboard with an ortholinear layout [1] for the Framework Laptop. After switch to a dactyl manuform keyboard it is really painful to go back to a typical staggered layout. Touch typing is much easier and more natural when using a good ortholinear layout. [1] https://mechlounge.com/interesting-ortho-ergo-keyboards/ https://mechlounge.com/interesting-ortho-ergo-keyboards/

yumraj 5y ago

In the hope that someone from Framework is reading, a 15" with 4K screen would be very nice - pretty please.

kowalej 5y ago

I also have issues with vPro battery drain. I accidently bought the vPro AX210 wifi module, with a non vPro capable processor, but it still seems to cause issues. I guess it's a wifi module specific problem, even though vPro should not be enabled on the system?

smeej 5y ago

I'm a couple days late to comment here, but I want to add the negative review I wish I'd read. Linux support on the Framework is really poor, and that was especially disappointing to me since that was one of the top reasons I bought it. Right on their install guidelines, it says to use 20.04 instead of 20.10 for Ubuntu or else WiFi may not work out of the box. Fine. Did that. But then there's a whole host of other problems. It will drain 30%+ of your battery overnight while "sleeping." You can get it down to about 20% by using "deep" sleep, but then your trackpad settings won't persist (scrolling will switch directions, speed will change) and your WiFi chip will be slow upon waking. It's also SLOW. I have 64 GB of RAM in this thing and even out of the box it takes double-digit seconds to open anything. I also don't buy the "premium" feel people are talking about. My hinges are loose enough that the screen wobbles. Pushing down on the casing around the keyboard makes annoying clicking noises. I've opened it up and can see no reason for this other than an improper fit of the frame. I bought the hype, and I spent a lot more money than I've ever spent on a computer before for something that will sit on my desk and collect dust. I'm incredibly disappointed and feel like I was sold a bill of goods here. Don't make the same mistake. If you want real Linux support, buy something that has stood the test of time. Or, heck, buy a 2015 Chromebook Pixel and run Lubuntu on it with chrx. I'm still using that box over this one. It's a better experience and a much more premium device than this, even though I won't be able to repair it. But even after 6 years of frequent usage, its battery outlasts the Framework 6:1.