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Telegram Ad Platform

235 points by decrypt 5y ago

deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
SergeAx 5y ago
I don't get how HN are working. I've submitted that exact URL 12 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=SergeAx https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=SergeAx
- skinkestek 5y ago
  It also left the front page today, but for the first time I can remember a story actually made its way back to the front page after leaving it. As far as I can see it didn't attract many upvotes in the meantime so I guess flag abuse was detected.
- saura 5y ago
  Me neither, if you find the answer share it please hahahah
dymk 5y ago
I’m very curious to see if this is a success for the platform! It looks like a very not-creepy way to serve up ads. One thing concerns me though (if I were to ever end up wanting to advertise) - no external links! Giving the audience to the thing I’m advertising is most of the reason I’d spend money on an ad. I wonder what sorts of ads are useful if they’re text-only? They qualify no “external” links, so maybe you could still have links to another product-specific channel where there are external links?
- capableweb 5y ago
  I think the idea is that first you create a Telegram channel for your product/store, then make a public message in that channel (which can contain whatever you want), then the ad links to that message. So the funnel is slightly longer, but goes through their platform.
- whimsicalism 5y ago
  Brand image/engagement style advertising is becoming increasingly popular.
- fold3 5y ago
  You cannot have external link but you probably can '@yourchannel' which can display anything you would like.
- jeroenhd 5y ago
  > It looks like a very not-creepy way to serve up ads. Context-based advertising is great for web content (and should have been made the standard years ago), but in a chat room, I'm not so sure. How does Telegram pick the relevant "topic"? From the channel description alone? I don't think that would be accurate at all. They do it for now, but who knows what will happen in a year or two! Their profit margin is on the line, after all. I know Telegram can read along with most messages sent through their platform, but up to now they didn't have a reason to do it. Now, I'm not so sure.
  - dymk 5y ago
    I’m not sure, but perhaps because they’re only serving these up in large channels, manual tagging will be used. Channel operators might be doing this work, with the revenue sharing agreement.
timeimp 5y ago
Here's hoping there will be a way to pay for no ads. But a question to HN: why have we not seen a mass-market adoption of a P2P, non-centralised messaging system that requires no external services to work? Mesh and other sorts of networks are cumbersome and have not reached mass-market adoption, so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform?
- ackbar03 5y ago
  My understanding is p2p doesn't really work in the true sense? Almost everyone is behind routers these days and ipv4 is still the main addressing system. Forwarding servers are needed. Skype used to be p2p based but had to be centralized after purchased by Microsoft cause of quality issues so its also centralized, although there were some theories about the nsa getting involved and what not
- AYBABTME 5y ago
  There's probably someone thinking of doing this on some blockchain of sort. In a way, you'd literally pay per use... !
  - medion 5y ago
    Yes, there must be a blockchain solution to this? Can anyone comment on functioning blockchain solutions (if any?)?
- decrypt 5y ago
  Matrix is working on a P2P system. Last update that I am aware of is the one here, but there are likely newer updates: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ Personally, I would like to use Briar on my Tailscale network, but the lack of Briar desktop app and the need to build custom Briar app to support Tailscale interface is a blocker. Or, a self-hosted Signal app.
  - LogonType10 5y ago
    Is it federated or P2P? I don't think I can message someone on Matrix without an account on someone's federated server.
kylehotchkiss 5y ago
I hope this works for telegram! They were going to need to launch ads at some point and this transparent plan to get started seems like it considered the user base. It’s become my favorite messaging app and I enjoy the pace of innovation. I get it’s not end to end encrypted but that’s not what I am asking for with telegram - just a decent messaging app that makes it easy to remain anonymous (not sharing phone number), great group support, and not domiciled in the west. I know the ads plan will expand (I could see ads in 1000+ person groups and not limited to only channels)
- divs1210 5y ago
  > I get it’s not end to end encrypted Even E2E encryption is supported via the Secret Chat feature! Telegram is pretty good.
  - rlpb 5y ago
    Except that if you enable Secret Chat, a bunch of useful features are no longer available. For example, there's no Live Location possible if you're in a Secret Chat.
- obiwan14 5y ago
  > just a decent messaging app that makes it easy to remain anonymous Anonymous from other users, not from the provider, right?
- captn3m0 5y ago
  I'll be waiting on the sidelines. Telegram has grown way beyond what is sustainable by just the founder's funding. It has also managed to avoid government scrutiny and any legal oversight by running behind a web of proxies and servers. While that has served it well for growth, it can't scale forever as infrastructure costs catch up. My personal thesis has been to wait and watch as telegram is forced to either shut down or turn evil to raise enough money for their finances. They tried to stay away from fiat by launching <del>TRON</del> TON but that got shut down, and now they're asking for money in euros. Once this ad program succeeds (it better do, telegram badly needs a revenue stream), it becomes a lynch-pin in telegram's model of success - their bank accounts are prone to seizure the next time a scandal blows up on telegram. Edit: The ToS defines "Company" as "the legal entity which belongs to Telegram group of companies and has a right to enter the Agreement with the Advertiser for the Services". Sounds like they're extending the "hidden-hosting" to "hidden-shell-companies" as well. Would advertisers be okay entering an agreement with an unknown legal entity?
captn3m0 5y ago
The minimum spends look ridiculous. >To ensure and maintain high quality of ad content, a minimum advance payment of €2,000,000 is required to launch ads on the Telegram Ad Platform. >Of this payment, Telegram holds €1,000,000 as a deposit, and makes the remaining sum available to the advertiser to spend on displaying ads. >If the contract is terminated and the advertiser spent less than €10,000,000 on ads within the preceding 12 months, the €1,000,000 deposit is withheld by Telegram. >If the contract is terminated and the advertiser spent more than €10,000,000 on ads within the preceding 12 months, the €1,000,000 deposit is returned. This seems like a solution to Telegram's cashflow problem - doesn't look like it has much runway left.
- kumarvvr 5y ago
  Are these types of structurings common in the ad industry?
  - manigandham 5y ago
    Yes, there are usually minimum spend requirements and other agreements for larger ad campaigns and ongoing relationships, especially with closed platforms like social networks that own the audience and platform. Contracts also include termination terms but upfront deposits like these are more rare.
  - est31 5y ago
    As an outsider, what is very common is conversion tracking, aka knowing whether people actually click your ad and buy your products, because that's the ultimate metric to optimize for. Most of the ad tracking we see in the web is actually not needed for the targeting part, but for the conversion tracking part. This product lacks conversion tracking, so I wonder if people with large enough budgets find it justified to run ads on the platform. As a user, I find it great that my privacy is not impinged upon. I hope it will work for them!
    - ackbar03 5y ago
      How do they optimize clicks if they don't impinge on your privacy? I didn't read the page in detail so maybe I'm missing something
0x38B 5y ago
Some answers and clarification on ads from Pavel Durov [1](Google Translate): “Many users have suggested introducing the ability to disable official advertisements on Telegram channels. Today we are announcing two more changes: 1. Users will be able to disable official advertisements. We have already started work on this new feature and look forward to launching it this month. It can be issued in the form of an inexpensive subscription, which will allow any user to directly financially support the development of Telegram and never see official advertisements in the channels. 2. Channel authors will be able to turn off official advertisements in their channels for all users. Some channel creators would also like to "turn off" advertisements in their channels for all users. At the moment, we are calculating the economic conditions for this option. Advertisers will soon be able to place an "invisible" ad on any channel that - assuming there is sufficient cost per impression - will result in no ads on that channel. Let me remind you that Telegram as a messenger will always be free of ads: Telegram will not show promotional messages in your chat list, private conversations or groups. Advertising will affect only large channels - services where there is already advertising, and the support of which leads to the greatest costs on the part of Telegram. We will continue to work on features that will allow Telegram to break even. The interests of users and content authors will remain our priority in this process.” 1: https://t.me/durov_russia/36 https://t.me/durov_russia/36
- dotancohen 5y ago
  > Users will be able to disable official advertisements. > in the form of an inexpensive subscription, If it really is inexpensive, that means in the realm of a dollar a month, I'll gladly pay.
  - bigger_inside 5y ago
    I've honestly been wanting to give Telegram money.
- lpcvoid 5y ago
  Wow, finally a company which takes money in return for services. Why is this such a seemingly outlandish thing for modern tech companies?
giacaglia 5y ago
This is pretty cool!
jakebasile 5y ago
Well I guess I won't be seeing any Taco Bell or LSD ads there: > Ads must not promote psychoactive substances, alcoholic beverages, tobacco products or fast food.
- XorNot 5y ago
  It's going to be wall to wall gambling and cryptocurrencies in that case.
  - jmnicolas 5y ago
    Is Viagra still cool? Asking for a friend...
- Krasnol 5y ago
  I love how they care about that while simultaneously being the most popular platform if you want to buy a fake vaccination certificate, hear about the latest conspiracy, download pirated software or meet your local nazi group. This is hilarious.
- numlock86 5y ago
  I get why you don't want to have ads for stuff like drugs, alcohol and tobacco. But fast food?
  - megumax 5y ago
    Durov had multiple posts related to healthy lifestyle where he talked about how bad fast food is and how people should prepare their own dishes. Restaurants. Restaurants offer the slowest and least efficient way to eat. Cooking at home allows for healthier diets and more control over ingredients.[1] [1] Durov's message on his 37th birthday
admin786 5y ago
Thanks for visiting
reilly3000 5y ago
I love the Telegram UX but have always been wary of its owner’s benevolence. They have bootstrapped an amazing platform and I hope they are able to get a strong ROI without compromising the great community they have built.
- 0xy 5y ago
  Signal is similarly backrolled by wealthy benefactors from Whatsapp, so this "benevolence" is not unique. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be suspicious though, because Signal is a cautionary tale already (MobileCoin debacle and closed source server code).
  - captn3m0 5y ago
    Telegram has much higher infrastructure costs due to their "unlimited size uploads", and channels/groups being non-e2ee = everything is stored forever. Signal could run on benevolence. Telegram's debts were at 770M USD earlier this year. (https://archive.md/mGtgp https://archive.md/mGtgp)
    - 0xy 5y ago
      I think Pavel isn't sweating about 5% of his net worth being tied up in an extremely popular passion project of his. Telegram isn't really just a messenger, it's an anti-censorship system. In fact, Telegram's burn rate would have to increase by roughly 3,000 to 5,000% for it to even make a yearly dent in his fortune, assuming he's invested in any kind of reasonable mix of assets.
      - captn3m0 5y ago
        If you're using the 17B net worth figure (the one reported by Forbes), it is mostly just based on Telegram's quoted-valuation jumping to 30-40B. A lot of his net-worth is telegram equity at this point, and he's using debt financing to keep telegram operational. The burn rate was "few hundred million dollars per year", as per Durov a year ago. Telegram has grown 50-60% in users since (350M->550M as per the graph on Wikipedia).
vmception 5y ago
Telegram's communities are extremely lucrative Whether you created entire country dividing conspiracies just to sell some Q-labeled coffee mugs to the followers, or promoting your next crypto service, Telegram is there Its pretty much the best
- vinay427 5y ago
  It seems like a much more prolific version of Discord, where the focus is clearly on large groups, and it handles this surprisingly well. I’m not sure why people used to draw comparisons with Signal, to be honest, given that anecdotally virtually no one uses Telegram with E2EE, and its implementation of it is remarkably crippled.
  - herbst 5y ago
    IMO mostly because Telegram is a daily driver for many to keep in touch with friends and family. Just like signal but with more fancy functions. While discord still is a weird gaming community, more along to a teamspeak server. I also don't have exact numbers but private chats are heavily used in some parts of telegram (mainly the grey or black markets)
    - vmception 5y ago
      Discord if you need sub discussions in the same community. Most communities don’t need that, so telegram is good enough for them. There is alot of crossdrift, on crypto telegram nobody cares if they are currently browsing discord or telegram
  - tryauuum 5y ago
    I use telegram with E2EE ;(
dmitriid 5y ago
Their test rollout was universally reviled: - it came as a hidden message at the very end of the message timeline - it broke unread count on many clients (since it was hidden, it was unread, and there were no notifications other than the unread count on the app's icon that wouldn't go away) - the test messages ended with "how will it affect you/users?) and instead of leading a post with an answer, it simply dumped you in Pavel Durov's chat - they looked exactly as any other message in the timeline with no indication it was an ad Presumably all this will be fixed, but people are kinda pissed.
knownjorbist 5y ago
HNers: what do you use telegram such that ads would be intrusive?
- herbst 5y ago
  I own about 40-50 of these groups that now get ads. My biggest fear is that there will be so many ads that nobody is clicking mine anymore. However, nearly all these big channels have some kind of ads already. As long as they don't spam their new ads, my users likely won't find it intrusive at all
cube00 5y ago
> Unlike other apps, Telegram doesn't track whether users tap on a sponsored message and doesn't profile them based on their activity. I wonder how this will go down with advertisers used to the usual pay-per-click and being able to demographically target their audience before spending their ad dollars.
- rgavuliak 5y ago
  > demographically target their audience That depends, some platforms already have their demographics skews so that might be indicative > pay-per-click Most platforms even tracked conversions with their pixels, but that will become a no-no as we're nearing the death of the 3rd party cookies. Companies will most probably start relying on Market Mix Models that model the impact of investment into ads on different channels on Revenue also taking into account things such as effect lags etc. Facebook has recently introduced an open source solution for this. I work for a company that also provides their own solution as a part of our platform and the interest is definitely picking up, so this issue might become less of an issue due to how the overall advertising ecosystem evolves in the next few years.
- ComodoHacker 5y ago
  Advertisers will use third-party analytic services that profile channels audience (but not individual users).
- flipdot 5y ago
  Well, there’s still a way to target topics & languages, as well as specific channels.
- laurex 5y ago
  I'm curious if there will there be a possibility that targeted ads may be regulated, especially if alternative models like this and DDG's approach are successful enough.
swarnie 5y ago
Any Telegram users here? I've only ever heard it used when talking about batshit American cults. Not exactly a target audience i want to reach.
- dgellow 5y ago
  It’s very popular in Europe. I haven’t seriously used another chat app since 2015.
- kiryin 5y ago
  I don't personally keep in touch with people so I can't really say how it's like, but I do know that it's popular around my neck of the woods. On par with whatsapp, it feels like.
- skzv 5y ago
  Telegram has more than 550 million monthly active users... so yeah, lots of us.
- herbst 5y ago
  It's the WhatsApp of my social circle. The question for me is who doesn't use it?
  - swarnie 5y ago
    Maybe its a region specific thing? I've honest never met or heard of someone using it IRL. The only time i come across it is when a youtube news show what's to laugh at some Q people.
    - herbst 5y ago
      It always is :) I was just arguing in another thread how things like iMessage, facetime and FB messanger simply only have little relevance because of all the people not having access to that here in Switzerland. Signal and Threema went kinda popular too the more media talked about WhatsApp. But Telegram was THE IM app with simply the most fun functionality. On the other hand I also know people refusing to use Telegram so nobody would think they are in weird channels now. Adding to that I may also have a privacy focused circle, I am sure you'll find a group of people here too who life the exact opposite
joshwebstero 5y ago
Not everyone loves to shop. I'm thinking we all like to save money though, right? These 10 Free Android Apps will help you do just that: they will save you cold hard cash and as a side benefit, they'll make you a more efficient shopper and will help you waste a lot less time getting the shopping done that you need to do. So, for no monetary cost, you can save a ton of time and build up all sorts of extra money by doing what you need to do already. Doesn't sound to bad to me! https://mhapks.com/download-offline-shooting-gamefree-gun-game-1-2-apk-for-android/ https://mhapks.com/download-offline-shooting-gamefree-gun-ga...
cik 5y ago
How about instead, you offer me the ability to buy into your platform? Offer me the ability to use the platform, and pay a monthly fee, as opposed to seeing ads.
- ComodoHacker 5y ago
  Durov hears you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29146473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29146473
  - cik 5y ago
    Thus, I salute Durov.
- strogonoff 5y ago
  Popularity of a messenger hinges on it being free, and viability of ad-driven business model hinges on popularity. Meanwhile, ad-driven model is a much more comfortable and reliable source of profit (since you are popular and free, users won’t leave, so no need to work hard fighting for customers). Imagine if instead of three whales we had a variety of paid messengers, all forced to interoperate with each other and offer APIs for third-party client software because that’s what paying users requested.
  - alpejf 5y ago
    I dont care how many customers the whales can support or whether they interoperate. I'll happily pay to support not just my client but who ever wants to connect to me. This is not some big yearly cost given how cheap hardware and bandwith have become.
    - strogonoff 5y ago
      If your service doesn’t interoperate with others, no one will connect to you unless everyone is already using the same service.
qaq 5y ago
The level of uptake of this FSB offshoot platform is surprising.
- hansel_der 5y ago
  why? it is functionally supperior to the CIA offshoot platform everybody else uses.
  - qaq 5y ago
    "He may be a scoundrel, but he's our scoundrel"
IceWreck 5y ago
Telegram clients are open source. Whats preventing people from patching out ads out of their clients ?
- dpq 5y ago
  1. Too much of hassle for most people out there. 2. (hypothetical) desire to keep Telegram afloat? I would rather pay a recurring fee though than get ads, but if the choice would be "Telegram with ads" vs "No Telegram at all" (if they run out of money), I would prefer the former option.
- ckastner 5y ago
  Nothing, probably, but the vast majority of the 500m MAU all but certainly use the official client, rather than a homebrewed one.
- Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
  To receive push notifications for iOS/Android apps, you need to upload your developer keys (!!!) to Telegram push server. So they can ban clients that disable advertising.
  - IceWreck 5y ago
    The open source fdroid builds don't do that, instead they receive notifications another way, without google's push service.
    - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
      Can you please elaborate, what 'another way'? I know only one: keeping the app running as a service, with all associated drawbacks. The app we develop (an XMPP client) does just that. On iOS, it is not possible at all. To make an app receive messages and notify user about them, you must use APNS, and to do that you have to upload your keys to Telegram.
      - IceWreck 5y ago
DeathArrow 5y ago
>Telegram will not show promotional messages in your chat list, private conversations or groups. Advertising will affect only large channels - services where there is already advertising, and the support of which leads to the greatest costs on the part of Telegram. That's really, really great. :)
johnchristopher 5y ago
> Turn off ad blocker > You appear to be using an ad blocker that may prevent pages on the Telegram Ad Platform from working as expected. > Please turn off your ad blocker or add promote.telegram.org as an exception to manage your promoted messages. > Close Oh, well ^^ I was a Telegram user for year until I completely switched to Signal 2.5 years ago. I'd pay 1-10€ a year for a Telegram experience with e2e and without ads. Why can't the old WA model be used ?
- maverwa 5y ago
  My guess is, because instant messaging only works with multiple people. The usfullness of an IM service is directly coupled to the amount of your peers using it. If there is no one to talk two, why bother? Sure, you and I may be happy to pay this, and may even fork out the fee for our loved ones, but how many other people would do that?
  - johnchristopher 5y ago
    > Sure, you and I may be happy to pay this, and may even fork out the fee for our loved ones, but how many other people would do that? I was thinking exactly that while reading the beginning of your post. I'd be ready to accept a part of my fee is to allow others to use the service but it'd need to be balanced so freeloaders don't tip off the balance. Maybe premium stickers packs or some vanity stuff. Or they can `choose` to pay by granting access to their ad profile and marketing tracking ?
  - jobigoud 5y ago
    Whatsapp almost reached one billion monthly users before they changed from paid (1$/year) to free.
    - FR10 5y ago
      I was a relatively early adopter of Whatsapp and although the banner to pay 1 USD/year was shown to me, I just pressed the "use whatsapp free for a year" button whenever the popup reappeared. I never ended up paying anything to WA.
_def 5y ago
When Facebook acquired WhatsApp I hoped that Telegram will do better, but it's been so many years now and they still don't open source everything and use their homemade cryptography. I find that really unfortunate because the app itself is really great, but not more trustworthy than WhatsApp.
- bigger_inside 5y ago
  You're using the cryptography alone as a means to gauge trustworthiness there, which is fair, but I'd expand the categories for trustworthiness and rearrange their ranking, please: It's a non-transnational corporation actor. That alone means I trust it magnitudes more than Whatsapp, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, discord, and all the others that I -know- are all captured by the way industry integration works.
- cunidev 5y ago
  I would argue it being even less trustworthy, with the vast majority of messages being stored in clear in closed-source servers.
saura 5y ago
As some other users said, this is something it had to be made to basically make some money out of an amazing tool, and I also think that you can keep your ads healthy if you moderate them. It´s fine. (:
phront 5y ago
They made their ads with dark ui pattern: an ad item pretends to be a post.
thomcano 5y ago
I do support Telegram on this one. They need it for their further growth and expansion. This will increase the user and brand of the ads will try to promote.
ksec 5y ago
The observation on HN seems rather strange. One Day, HN bash anyone who support Ads as a way forward to offer any Internet services. All Ads are evil. At some point people are even questioning how could anyone be working inside Ad industry. Another day HN are extremely happy to see Telegram getting ads to support their services. Because they are competing with Facebook / Whatsapp. May be after all it isn't Ads are evil or bad, it is ads from Facebook or Google are bad?
rmbyrro 5y ago
In the user-directed communication, they claim external links aren't allowed to prevent advertiser spying. But in the advertiser-directed comms, it's clear you can have an external link in a button below the ad text. Am I not seeing something obvious or is it a contradiction?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
stereoradonc 5y ago
This is a wise move - apart from the finances and steady revenue stream, Telegram is well aware that most channel owners already include "paid posts" and sponsor messages. As a channel owner, the biggest stumbling block is discoverability. Therefore, you contact big channel owners and request them to put up your post (or pay extra to pin it). There's a cost involved - it depends on the number of subscriptions. Though, from my rough estimates, 1 in 5 subscribers end up getting it. There are detailed channel statistics that measure the impact of each post made. I notice the discussion here is being done by most users, who don't have channels or not on Telegram either. There has been a gradual acceptance of Telegram here, which is vying for a serious social media alternative. WhatsApp plans to roll out "Communities" in response to Telegram channels. However, its ownership is nuclear waste. They have several innovative features in pipeline. I use channel to relay video calling (I can record it and host unlimited users). The video calling has improved by leaps and bounds in past several weeks and has become a serious alternative to Facetime.

235 points by decrypt 5y ago

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

I don't get how HN are working. I've submitted that exact URL 12 days ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=SergeAx https://news.ycombinator.com/submitted?id=SergeAx

skinkestek 5y ago
It also left the front page today, but for the first time I can remember a story actually made its way back to the front page after leaving it. As far as I can see it didn't attract many upvotes in the meantime so I guess flag abuse was detected.
saura 5y ago
Me neither, if you find the answer share it please hahahah

dymk 5y ago

I’m very curious to see if this is a success for the platform! It looks like a very not-creepy way to serve up ads. One thing concerns me though (if I were to ever end up wanting to advertise) - no external links! Giving the audience to the thing I’m advertising is most of the reason I’d spend money on an ad. I wonder what sorts of ads are useful if they’re text-only? They qualify no “external” links, so maybe you could still have links to another product-specific channel where there are external links?

capableweb 5y ago
I think the idea is that first you create a Telegram channel for your product/store, then make a public message in that channel (which can contain whatever you want), then the ad links to that message. So the funnel is slightly longer, but goes through their platform.
whimsicalism 5y ago
Brand image/engagement style advertising is becoming increasingly popular.
fold3 5y ago
You cannot have external link but you probably can '@yourchannel' which can display anything you would like.
jeroenhd 5y ago
> It looks like a very not-creepy way to serve up ads. Context-based advertising is great for web content (and should have been made the standard years ago), but in a chat room, I'm not so sure. How does Telegram pick the relevant "topic"? From the channel description alone? I don't think that would be accurate at all. They do it for now, but who knows what will happen in a year or two! Their profit margin is on the line, after all. I know Telegram can read along with most messages sent through their platform, but up to now they didn't have a reason to do it. Now, I'm not so sure.
- dymk 5y ago
  I’m not sure, but perhaps because they’re only serving these up in large channels, manual tagging will be used. Channel operators might be doing this work, with the revenue sharing agreement.

timeimp 5y ago

Here's hoping there will be a way to pay for no ads. But a question to HN: why have we not seen a mass-market adoption of a P2P, non-centralised messaging system that requires no external services to work? Mesh and other sorts of networks are cumbersome and have not reached mass-market adoption, so what (technically) is stopping a true E2E P2P platform?

ackbar03 5y ago
My understanding is p2p doesn't really work in the true sense? Almost everyone is behind routers these days and ipv4 is still the main addressing system. Forwarding servers are needed. Skype used to be p2p based but had to be centralized after purchased by Microsoft cause of quality issues so its also centralized, although there were some theories about the nsa getting involved and what not
AYBABTME 5y ago
There's probably someone thinking of doing this on some blockchain of sort. In a way, you'd literally pay per use... !
- medion 5y ago
  Yes, there must be a blockchain solution to this? Can anyone comment on functioning blockchain solutions (if any?)?
decrypt 5y ago
Matrix is working on a P2P system. Last update that I am aware of is the one here, but there are likely newer updates: https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ https://matrix.org/blog/2020/06/02/introducing-p-2-p-matrix/ Personally, I would like to use Briar on my Tailscale network, but the lack of Briar desktop app and the need to build custom Briar app to support Tailscale interface is a blocker. Or, a self-hosted Signal app.
- LogonType10 5y ago
  Is it federated or P2P? I don't think I can message someone on Matrix without an account on someone's federated server.

kylehotchkiss 5y ago

I hope this works for telegram! They were going to need to launch ads at some point and this transparent plan to get started seems like it considered the user base. It’s become my favorite messaging app and I enjoy the pace of innovation. I get it’s not end to end encrypted but that’s not what I am asking for with telegram - just a decent messaging app that makes it easy to remain anonymous (not sharing phone number), great group support, and not domiciled in the west. I know the ads plan will expand (I could see ads in 1000+ person groups and not limited to only channels)

divs1210 5y ago
> I get it’s not end to end encrypted Even E2E encryption is supported via the Secret Chat feature! Telegram is pretty good.
- rlpb 5y ago
  Except that if you enable Secret Chat, a bunch of useful features are no longer available. For example, there's no Live Location possible if you're in a Secret Chat.
obiwan14 5y ago
> just a decent messaging app that makes it easy to remain anonymous Anonymous from other users, not from the provider, right?
captn3m0 5y ago
I'll be waiting on the sidelines. Telegram has grown way beyond what is sustainable by just the founder's funding. It has also managed to avoid government scrutiny and any legal oversight by running behind a web of proxies and servers. While that has served it well for growth, it can't scale forever as infrastructure costs catch up. My personal thesis has been to wait and watch as telegram is forced to either shut down or turn evil to raise enough money for their finances. They tried to stay away from fiat by launching <del>TRON</del> TON but that got shut down, and now they're asking for money in euros. Once this ad program succeeds (it better do, telegram badly needs a revenue stream), it becomes a lynch-pin in telegram's model of success - their bank accounts are prone to seizure the next time a scandal blows up on telegram. Edit: The ToS defines "Company" as "the legal entity which belongs to Telegram group of companies and has a right to enter the Agreement with the Advertiser for the Services". Sounds like they're extending the "hidden-hosting" to "hidden-shell-companies" as well. Would advertisers be okay entering an agreement with an unknown legal entity?

captn3m0 5y ago

The minimum spends look ridiculous. >To ensure and maintain high quality of ad content, a minimum advance payment of €2,000,000 is required to launch ads on the Telegram Ad Platform. >Of this payment, Telegram holds €1,000,000 as a deposit, and makes the remaining sum available to the advertiser to spend on displaying ads. >If the contract is terminated and the advertiser spent less than €10,000,000 on ads within the preceding 12 months, the €1,000,000 deposit is withheld by Telegram. >If the contract is terminated and the advertiser spent more than €10,000,000 on ads within the preceding 12 months, the €1,000,000 deposit is returned. This seems like a solution to Telegram's cashflow problem - doesn't look like it has much runway left.

kumarvvr 5y ago
Are these types of structurings common in the ad industry?
- manigandham 5y ago
  Yes, there are usually minimum spend requirements and other agreements for larger ad campaigns and ongoing relationships, especially with closed platforms like social networks that own the audience and platform. Contracts also include termination terms but upfront deposits like these are more rare.
- est31 5y ago
  As an outsider, what is very common is conversion tracking, aka knowing whether people actually click your ad and buy your products, because that's the ultimate metric to optimize for. Most of the ad tracking we see in the web is actually not needed for the targeting part, but for the conversion tracking part. This product lacks conversion tracking, so I wonder if people with large enough budgets find it justified to run ads on the platform. As a user, I find it great that my privacy is not impinged upon. I hope it will work for them!
  - ackbar03 5y ago
    How do they optimize clicks if they don't impinge on your privacy? I didn't read the page in detail so maybe I'm missing something

0x38B 5y ago

Some answers and clarification on ads from Pavel Durov [1](Google Translate): “Many users have suggested introducing the ability to disable official advertisements on Telegram channels. Today we are announcing two more changes: 1. Users will be able to disable official advertisements. We have already started work on this new feature and look forward to launching it this month. It can be issued in the form of an inexpensive subscription, which will allow any user to directly financially support the development of Telegram and never see official advertisements in the channels. 2. Channel authors will be able to turn off official advertisements in their channels for all users. Some channel creators would also like to "turn off" advertisements in their channels for all users. At the moment, we are calculating the economic conditions for this option. Advertisers will soon be able to place an "invisible" ad on any channel that - assuming there is sufficient cost per impression - will result in no ads on that channel. Let me remind you that Telegram as a messenger will always be free of ads: Telegram will not show promotional messages in your chat list, private conversations or groups. Advertising will affect only large channels - services where there is already advertising, and the support of which leads to the greatest costs on the part of Telegram. We will continue to work on features that will allow Telegram to break even. The interests of users and content authors will remain our priority in this process.” 1: https://t.me/durov_russia/36 https://t.me/durov_russia/36

dotancohen 5y ago
> Users will be able to disable official advertisements. > in the form of an inexpensive subscription, If it really is inexpensive, that means in the realm of a dollar a month, I'll gladly pay.
- bigger_inside 5y ago
  I've honestly been wanting to give Telegram money.
lpcvoid 5y ago
Wow, finally a company which takes money in return for services. Why is this such a seemingly outlandish thing for modern tech companies?

giacaglia 5y ago

This is pretty cool!

jakebasile 5y ago

Well I guess I won't be seeing any Taco Bell or LSD ads there: > Ads must not promote psychoactive substances, alcoholic beverages, tobacco products or fast food.

XorNot 5y ago
It's going to be wall to wall gambling and cryptocurrencies in that case.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  Is Viagra still cool? Asking for a friend...
Krasnol 5y ago
I love how they care about that while simultaneously being the most popular platform if you want to buy a fake vaccination certificate, hear about the latest conspiracy, download pirated software or meet your local nazi group. This is hilarious.
numlock86 5y ago
I get why you don't want to have ads for stuff like drugs, alcohol and tobacco. But fast food?
- megumax 5y ago
  Durov had multiple posts related to healthy lifestyle where he talked about how bad fast food is and how people should prepare their own dishes. Restaurants. Restaurants offer the slowest and least efficient way to eat. Cooking at home allows for healthier diets and more control over ingredients.[1] [1] Durov's message on his 37th birthday

admin786 5y ago

Thanks for visiting

reilly3000 5y ago

I love the Telegram UX but have always been wary of its owner’s benevolence. They have bootstrapped an amazing platform and I hope they are able to get a strong ROI without compromising the great community they have built.

0xy 5y ago
Signal is similarly backrolled by wealthy benefactors from Whatsapp, so this "benevolence" is not unique. That doesn't mean you shouldn't be suspicious though, because Signal is a cautionary tale already (MobileCoin debacle and closed source server code).
- captn3m0 5y ago
  Telegram has much higher infrastructure costs due to their "unlimited size uploads", and channels/groups being non-e2ee = everything is stored forever. Signal could run on benevolence. Telegram's debts were at 770M USD earlier this year. (https://archive.md/mGtgp https://archive.md/mGtgp)
  - 0xy 5y ago
    I think Pavel isn't sweating about 5% of his net worth being tied up in an extremely popular passion project of his. Telegram isn't really just a messenger, it's an anti-censorship system. In fact, Telegram's burn rate would have to increase by roughly 3,000 to 5,000% for it to even make a yearly dent in his fortune, assuming he's invested in any kind of reasonable mix of assets.
    - captn3m0 5y ago
      If you're using the 17B net worth figure (the one reported by Forbes), it is mostly just based on Telegram's quoted-valuation jumping to 30-40B. A lot of his net-worth is telegram equity at this point, and he's using debt financing to keep telegram operational. The burn rate was "few hundred million dollars per year", as per Durov a year ago. Telegram has grown 50-60% in users since (350M->550M as per the graph on Wikipedia).

vmception 5y ago

Telegram's communities are extremely lucrative Whether you created entire country dividing conspiracies just to sell some Q-labeled coffee mugs to the followers, or promoting your next crypto service, Telegram is there Its pretty much the best

vinay427 5y ago
It seems like a much more prolific version of Discord, where the focus is clearly on large groups, and it handles this surprisingly well. I’m not sure why people used to draw comparisons with Signal, to be honest, given that anecdotally virtually no one uses Telegram with E2EE, and its implementation of it is remarkably crippled.
- herbst 5y ago
  IMO mostly because Telegram is a daily driver for many to keep in touch with friends and family. Just like signal but with more fancy functions. While discord still is a weird gaming community, more along to a teamspeak server. I also don't have exact numbers but private chats are heavily used in some parts of telegram (mainly the grey or black markets)
  - vmception 5y ago
    Discord if you need sub discussions in the same community. Most communities don’t need that, so telegram is good enough for them. There is alot of crossdrift, on crypto telegram nobody cares if they are currently browsing discord or telegram
- tryauuum 5y ago
  I use telegram with E2EE ;(

dmitriid 5y ago

Their test rollout was universally reviled: - it came as a hidden message at the very end of the message timeline - it broke unread count on many clients (since it was hidden, it was unread, and there were no notifications other than the unread count on the app's icon that wouldn't go away) - the test messages ended with "how will it affect you/users?) and instead of leading a post with an answer, it simply dumped you in Pavel Durov's chat - they looked exactly as any other message in the timeline with no indication it was an ad Presumably all this will be fixed, but people are kinda pissed.

knownjorbist 5y ago

HNers: what do you use telegram such that ads would be intrusive?

herbst 5y ago
I own about 40-50 of these groups that now get ads. My biggest fear is that there will be so many ads that nobody is clicking mine anymore. However, nearly all these big channels have some kind of ads already. As long as they don't spam their new ads, my users likely won't find it intrusive at all

cube00 5y ago

> Unlike other apps, Telegram doesn't track whether users tap on a sponsored message and doesn't profile them based on their activity. I wonder how this will go down with advertisers used to the usual pay-per-click and being able to demographically target their audience before spending their ad dollars.

rgavuliak 5y ago
> demographically target their audience That depends, some platforms already have their demographics skews so that might be indicative > pay-per-click Most platforms even tracked conversions with their pixels, but that will become a no-no as we're nearing the death of the 3rd party cookies. Companies will most probably start relying on Market Mix Models that model the impact of investment into ads on different channels on Revenue also taking into account things such as effect lags etc. Facebook has recently introduced an open source solution for this. I work for a company that also provides their own solution as a part of our platform and the interest is definitely picking up, so this issue might become less of an issue due to how the overall advertising ecosystem evolves in the next few years.
ComodoHacker 5y ago
Advertisers will use third-party analytic services that profile channels audience (but not individual users).
flipdot 5y ago
Well, there’s still a way to target topics & languages, as well as specific channels.
laurex 5y ago
I'm curious if there will there be a possibility that targeted ads may be regulated, especially if alternative models like this and DDG's approach are successful enough.

swarnie 5y ago

Any Telegram users here? I've only ever heard it used when talking about batshit American cults. Not exactly a target audience i want to reach.

dgellow 5y ago
It’s very popular in Europe. I haven’t seriously used another chat app since 2015.
kiryin 5y ago
I don't personally keep in touch with people so I can't really say how it's like, but I do know that it's popular around my neck of the woods. On par with whatsapp, it feels like.
skzv 5y ago
Telegram has more than 550 million monthly active users... so yeah, lots of us.
herbst 5y ago
It's the WhatsApp of my social circle. The question for me is who doesn't use it?
- swarnie 5y ago
  Maybe its a region specific thing? I've honest never met or heard of someone using it IRL. The only time i come across it is when a youtube news show what's to laugh at some Q people.
  - herbst 5y ago
    It always is :) I was just arguing in another thread how things like iMessage, facetime and FB messanger simply only have little relevance because of all the people not having access to that here in Switzerland. Signal and Threema went kinda popular too the more media talked about WhatsApp. But Telegram was THE IM app with simply the most fun functionality. On the other hand I also know people refusing to use Telegram so nobody would think they are in weird channels now. Adding to that I may also have a privacy focused circle, I am sure you'll find a group of people here too who life the exact opposite

joshwebstero 5y ago

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cik 5y ago

How about instead, you offer me the ability to buy into your platform? Offer me the ability to use the platform, and pay a monthly fee, as opposed to seeing ads.

ComodoHacker 5y ago
Durov hears you: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29146473 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=29146473
- cik 5y ago
  Thus, I salute Durov.
strogonoff 5y ago
Popularity of a messenger hinges on it being free, and viability of ad-driven business model hinges on popularity. Meanwhile, ad-driven model is a much more comfortable and reliable source of profit (since you are popular and free, users won’t leave, so no need to work hard fighting for customers). Imagine if instead of three whales we had a variety of paid messengers, all forced to interoperate with each other and offer APIs for third-party client software because that’s what paying users requested.
- alpejf 5y ago
  I dont care how many customers the whales can support or whether they interoperate. I'll happily pay to support not just my client but who ever wants to connect to me. This is not some big yearly cost given how cheap hardware and bandwith have become.
  - strogonoff 5y ago
    If your service doesn’t interoperate with others, no one will connect to you unless everyone is already using the same service.

qaq 5y ago

The level of uptake of this FSB offshoot platform is surprising.

hansel_der 5y ago
why? it is functionally supperior to the CIA offshoot platform everybody else uses.
- qaq 5y ago
  "He may be a scoundrel, but he's our scoundrel"

IceWreck 5y ago

Telegram clients are open source. Whats preventing people from patching out ads out of their clients ?

dpq 5y ago
1. Too much of hassle for most people out there. 2. (hypothetical) desire to keep Telegram afloat? I would rather pay a recurring fee though than get ads, but if the choice would be "Telegram with ads" vs "No Telegram at all" (if they run out of money), I would prefer the former option.
ckastner 5y ago
Nothing, probably, but the vast majority of the 500m MAU all but certainly use the official client, rather than a homebrewed one.
Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
To receive push notifications for iOS/Android apps, you need to upload your developer keys (!!!) to Telegram push server. So they can ban clients that disable advertising.
- IceWreck 5y ago
  The open source fdroid builds don't do that, instead they receive notifications another way, without google's push service.
  - Andrew_nenakhov 5y ago
    Can you please elaborate, what 'another way'? I know only one: keeping the app running as a service, with all associated drawbacks. The app we develop (an XMPP client) does just that. On iOS, it is not possible at all. To make an app receive messages and notify user about them, you must use APNS, and to do that you have to upload your keys to Telegram.
    - IceWreck 5y ago

DeathArrow 5y ago

>Telegram will not show promotional messages in your chat list, private conversations or groups. Advertising will affect only large channels - services where there is already advertising, and the support of which leads to the greatest costs on the part of Telegram. That's really, really great. :)

johnchristopher 5y ago

> Turn off ad blocker > You appear to be using an ad blocker that may prevent pages on the Telegram Ad Platform from working as expected. > Please turn off your ad blocker or add promote.telegram.org as an exception to manage your promoted messages. > Close Oh, well ^^ I was a Telegram user for year until I completely switched to Signal 2.5 years ago. I'd pay 1-10€ a year for a Telegram experience with e2e and without ads. Why can't the old WA model be used ?

maverwa 5y ago
My guess is, because instant messaging only works with multiple people. The usfullness of an IM service is directly coupled to the amount of your peers using it. If there is no one to talk two, why bother? Sure, you and I may be happy to pay this, and may even fork out the fee for our loved ones, but how many other people would do that?
- johnchristopher 5y ago
  > Sure, you and I may be happy to pay this, and may even fork out the fee for our loved ones, but how many other people would do that? I was thinking exactly that while reading the beginning of your post. I'd be ready to accept a part of my fee is to allow others to use the service but it'd need to be balanced so freeloaders don't tip off the balance. Maybe premium stickers packs or some vanity stuff. Or they can `choose` to pay by granting access to their ad profile and marketing tracking ?
- jobigoud 5y ago
  Whatsapp almost reached one billion monthly users before they changed from paid (1$/year) to free.
  - FR10 5y ago
    I was a relatively early adopter of Whatsapp and although the banner to pay 1 USD/year was shown to me, I just pressed the "use whatsapp free for a year" button whenever the popup reappeared. I never ended up paying anything to WA.

_def 5y ago

When Facebook acquired WhatsApp I hoped that Telegram will do better, but it's been so many years now and they still don't open source everything and use their homemade cryptography. I find that really unfortunate because the app itself is really great, but not more trustworthy than WhatsApp.

bigger_inside 5y ago
You're using the cryptography alone as a means to gauge trustworthiness there, which is fair, but I'd expand the categories for trustworthiness and rearrange their ranking, please: It's a non-transnational corporation actor. That alone means I trust it magnitudes more than Whatsapp, Instagram, Twitter, Snapchat, discord, and all the others that I -know- are all captured by the way industry integration works.
cunidev 5y ago
I would argue it being even less trustworthy, with the vast majority of messages being stored in clear in closed-source servers.

saura 5y ago

As some other users said, this is something it had to be made to basically make some money out of an amazing tool, and I also think that you can keep your ads healthy if you moderate them. It´s fine. (:

phront 5y ago

They made their ads with dark ui pattern: an ad item pretends to be a post.

thomcano 5y ago

I do support Telegram on this one. They need it for their further growth and expansion. This will increase the user and brand of the ads will try to promote.

ksec 5y ago

The observation on HN seems rather strange. One Day, HN bash anyone who support Ads as a way forward to offer any Internet services. All Ads are evil. At some point people are even questioning how could anyone be working inside Ad industry. Another day HN are extremely happy to see Telegram getting ads to support their services. Because they are competing with Facebook / Whatsapp. May be after all it isn't Ads are evil or bad, it is ads from Facebook or Google are bad?

rmbyrro 5y ago

In the user-directed communication, they claim external links aren't allowed to prevent advertiser spying. But in the advertiser-directed comms, it's clear you can have an external link in a button below the ad text. Am I not seeing something obvious or is it a contradiction?

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

stereoradonc 5y ago

This is a wise move - apart from the finances and steady revenue stream, Telegram is well aware that most channel owners already include "paid posts" and sponsor messages. As a channel owner, the biggest stumbling block is discoverability. Therefore, you contact big channel owners and request them to put up your post (or pay extra to pin it). There's a cost involved - it depends on the number of subscriptions. Though, from my rough estimates, 1 in 5 subscribers end up getting it. There are detailed channel statistics that measure the impact of each post made. I notice the discussion here is being done by most users, who don't have channels or not on Telegram either. There has been a gradual acceptance of Telegram here, which is vying for a serious social media alternative. WhatsApp plans to roll out "Communities" in response to Telegram channels. However, its ownership is nuclear waste. They have several innovative features in pipeline. I use channel to relay video calling (I can record it and host unlimited users). The video calling has improved by leaps and bounds in past several weeks and has become a serious alternative to Facetime.