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A bit of a digression, but when is it appropriate to introduce kids to a computer at all. Isn't 2 years old too young? There are ways to entertain creativity an

A bit of a digression, but when is it appropriate to introduce kids to a computer at all. Isn't 2 years old too young? There are ways to entertain creativity and abstract thinking at that age that involve more physical activity. It does seem like they will spend the rest of the time attached to monitors regardless of what profession they choose. I always wanted to delay that as much as possible. Although, I am an avid terminal user and former emacs fanboy, I don't understand the appeal of a command line in this case. It seems, that it is rather a shortcoming of UI that you have to switch to cli to achieve a maximum productivity in development work. There is Logo, there is Scratch, there are some other nice apps for iPads + guided access to teach kids about underlying of computing. CLI seems like a very opinionated way of doing things, rather than exposing underlying structure.

zarzavat 5y ago
I don't think there's a bad time to introduce kids to a computer, that seems harmless. What is bad is when the computer/tablet/phone becomes a pacifier that parents park their kids in front of. Better to give them actual toys that they will grow out of, rather than a screen that they won't.
- elliotec 5y ago
  > Better to give them actual toys that they will grow out of, rather than a screen that they won't. I know this is true, but why is it true? We have a 4 month old, she gets very nearly zero screen time, but on the rare occasion I have her on my lap for a few minutes during a meeting, playing a game, or video chatting with overseas family/friends, she is enamored and, yes, pacified. What precisely is the harm in that vs "a toy they will grow out of?" I will also add I had what I have long considered it a privilege that I had been introduced to computers at a very young age, as well as the internet (for better or (probably mostly?) worse).
  - fukpaywalls2 5y ago
    i made the mistake of giving my son a laptop at an early age so he could play some puzzle games while I work on my own laptop. Later on, his mother as part of pta of a private school handed out iphones as prizes to his class. Now, we seldom have any conversations as he his immersed in his own world.
    - skrbjc 5y ago
      Handed out iphones as prizes??? That sounds crazy. Also, you can change this behavior. It is crucial that you build a positive relationship with him and pull him out from the screen and into your life. Not sure how old your son is, but try setting aside a day or half a day where you both leave your phones and spend the time talking or doing an activity together.
  - Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
    I have a 2 year old who gets very little screen time. When he does get some, his facial expression looks like that of someone on drugs. He stops paying attention to anything else, he barely answers to anything, he only reacts to complain if an ad interrupts the video, or to move his head or complain if you're between him and the screen. Intuitively, that doesn't look healthy to me, I don't need to look at data to know that. Especially because it's not a reaction that he has to anything else (no other thing, even things he likes a lot, sucks his attention that much... breastfeeding gets close but even when breastfeeding he's less of a zombie than in front of a screen, he does play with things using his hand, foot, etc.) so it doesn't feel normal. And I find it very sad to see kids who spend hours a day in that state instead of interacting with the world, playing, etc. At 4 months old it's not so obvious because they interact less in general and don't have a lot of obvious states beyond "crying" and "not crying", but check his reactions to the screen when she gets a little older and you will see.
    - Moru 5y ago
      I would not worry too much about this. I see this behaviour in my kid but also her mother and mothers mother. It's something that runs in the family. And her family didn't have TV or other media the last 50 years and they still all have the zombie trait. Our family however grew up with TV from early age and we do not have the zombie trait.
    - krageon 5y ago
      > looks like that of someone on drugs So relaxed (or very activated)? Generally what people think of when they say "like they're on drugs" are just normal states that they disapprove of because it suits the narrative. In this case, the narrative is "screen time is bad". That means it is suitable to condemn it by making a parallel with something destructive, to make it feel like it has some association (which it neither physically nor mentally has been proven to have).
      - valvar 5y ago
        To further illustrate that point, would you say that someone who is deeply concentrated while reading a book or solving a puzzle looks like they're on drugs?
  - watwut 5y ago
    It is rather absurd to worry about impact of "screen". There is no difference between your baby being exposed to tablet and to TV playing in the background or any other device. It does matter what the screen does and what plays on it. If you use it to chat with family or play youtube videos targeted at adults (like crafts or lectures), the kid will get bored quite quickly. If you put there teletubbies or kiddy game, the kid will watch for long. If you pack tablet with only drawing software and selected kiddy games, you will have good experience. If you put there games addictive to kids or games that stresses them, you will have bad experience. If you put there too difficult games, the kid will have no use for it. It really depends a lot on which software/games/activities you choose and how you setup house rules. And at this age, you have all the control.
    - the_af 5y ago
      Again, this is not my experience at all. The screen (interactive or just the TV) is a powerful attractor of my 2-year old and she will be glued to it almost regardless of the actual content. I do agree a tablet and the TV are similar in this regard.
      - Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
        I wonder if it's because she hasn't seen the screen as often? We grew with mine with a screen always on (work from home). We watch animes during lunch or as background when doing boring work. We play videogames, so more exposure. Point is, unless there is relevant content, she won't look at the screen (3 years old). We skip all the videos for kids (we do have occasional movies), but those videos with songs made me want to smash the screen, she just turns braindead. I wonder if all it's needed is a parent observing behavior and evolution of behavior to determine each activity's health based on a kid-by-kid basis, rather than generalizing.
  - Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
    My daughter (3 years old) plays on the Nintendo switch. I never even considered tablet games, as a parent I raise the bar for harder things so she learns. The games she play are Kirby Star Allies and Yoshi's crafted world. She is not in trance like other parents described, she actually describes to me everything she does (which turns frustrating when you are focused). She also shuts the game down "after 1 level", when asked. Or immediately if necessary (we don't want to use that card, we want to respect her time). I think there is a big difference in the type of videogame. She has the best hand-eye coordination of her class (games are played with a controller) and she developed concepts like "background vs foreground", as well as aiming and an enormous amount of other things. That being said, after a certain amount of time, she will get unsettled. If she doesn't move away by herself, you have to remind her. What I think I see is "unrecognized boredom". She doesn't realize that yet, although she is getting better (I saw her pause and go do something else more than once lately). Finally, I play videogames with her. That has been amazing so far, I'm glad we did. All of this to say: toys gets boring way faster, but it's also easier to detect boredom. Creative toys do help, that's basically why duplo/wooden train/magnets are the top 3. I play with her and we have to buy new toys mainly because I get bored to play always with them (keep in mind that we talk about many, many sessions). Given that, yeah, I can see her getting bored faster. Videogames have way more content and variation. Do remember that paper, glue and colors are very cheap and can create a lot of stuff though!
- zoid_ 5y ago
  Whilst I would generally agree, in the days of simultaneously juggling working and childcare, devices like tablets can be a game changer. When configured correctly with educational apps and sensible time restrictions, it is great to see my toddler learn things for himself. The world has changed both with our roles are parents and the environment which we exist in. My 2 year old would quite happily be able to order food via an unavoidable touch screen interface at a fast food restaurant! Now.. to get him started with vim.
- jvvw 5y ago
  As a parent, the pacification thing is very useful sometimes! Toys don't pacify as reliably and if you are in a situation where you need or want to pay attention to other adults undisturbed but your child is there, then I totally understand the usage of screens in that way. Obviously you can try and arrange your life to avoid such situations but they do crop up. Work meetings with an ill child at home spring to mind! On the other hand, I did find that the more time you give your child playing with toys uninterrupted, the more their attention span for that improves.
killerpopiller 5y ago
what is Logo and Scratch? can’t find them in App store.
- thevinter 5y ago
  They are both programming languages aimed primarily at children https://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/what_is_logo/logo_programming.html https://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/what_is_logo/logo_p... https://scratch.mit.edu/ https://scratch.mit.edu/
- girvo 5y ago
  Logo (or "turtle" based visual languages) do exist on the App Store, there are a few examples (searching "turtle programming ios" gave me a few) https://turtle360.net/ https://turtle360.net/ seemed pretty good. Scratch also does: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/scratchjr/id895485086 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/scratchjr/id895485086
- vaylian 5y ago
  Both are programming languages and both predate the (Apple) App store. Logo: 1967 Scratch: 2007 Apple App Store: 2008 (source: Wikipedia)
ben_w 5y ago
> Isn't 2 years old too young? There are ways to entertain creativity and abstract thinking at that age that involve more physical activity. Perhaps, though I’m not sure if there is a specific or well-defined reasonable minimum age. I was typing code blocks from the Commodore 64 user manual into the machine itself while learning to read — literally while still young enough to enjoy the The Very Hungry Caterpillar picture book — and yet this did not exclude the desire to also play with the various physical toys my parents got me.
stevekemp 5y ago
I'm not sure there's a "too young" or "too old". To children computers are basically magic anyway. Our child used to see me and his mother working/playing and was always interested. We'd launch OpenOffice, maximize the window, select a huge font, and let him mash the keys from the age of 2+. He'd amuse himself making characters appear, and we let him do this whenever he asked to "work on the puter". When he was three/four he'd start typing his name, our names, and the few words he knew how to spell. At some point he started using backspace/delete appropriately, and he seems to have learned that the mouse can be used to move the typing-point once the screen is full. I've no specific plans to force more on him, but when he gets to five I might explain a bit more what is happening, or show him some simple online flash-like games. (Obviously not flash these days ..) Ten minutes of typing/playing though? After a few hours outdoors every day isn't gonna do any harm though.
- bvm 5y ago
  > To children computers are basically magic anyway. to adults too!
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
jcelerier 5y ago
My father put me in front of a computer at ~4/5 (DOS era, so command-line too) ; I had mine in my room at ~9 iirc. Hasn't turned out too bad I think !
mro_name 5y ago
as long as the kids make haptic primary experiences and get a feeling of physical reality of the world, visual depth (screens may show 3d images but never are to the eye) and social contact with present people, it may be fine. Those people e.g. can be aware what's happening behind the screen – a person inside cannot. And it cannot help a hand either. But I find the first contact to a computer through a shell awesome. Text is what constitutes a usable computer, zeroes and ones don't yet. No matter what age, maybe after primary school may be fully sufficient.
rwnspace 5y ago
FWIW, I learned to read in order to load the Thomas The Tank Engine game from the CD drive via MS-DOS - and I went and spent most of my time on music and literature until I got into my tech in my late twenties. I think it's fine providing they're getting all the other fun creative IRL stuff too :)
lozenge 5y ago
As a data point, my first word in English was "eboot" (meaning reboot). Clearly too early.
- dotancohen 5y ago
  I suppose that's better than "orn".
dotancohen 5y ago
> when is it appropriate to introduce kids to a computer at all. A question that I've been struggling with since my first was born a decade and a half ago. I've decided on this: The computer is a tool. As soon as they could use a hammer, or a computer, or a match safely - and demonstrate that they know - then they could use them. My two daughters never got the hammer, my son got it at 5. And he knows why we call it the "thumb seeker". The "computer" tool I allow for _creating_ content at about 3 to 5, I don't remember exactly. They were all able to create content (or write in VIM, yes, VIM) by 5 I think. And they were able to stop when I tell them to... So I generally didn't have to tell them to. The "computer" tool I allow for _consuming_ content started at about 8 or 9 I think for the girls, when they demonstrated - and continue to demonstrate - that they can occupy themselves without the computer and that they can stop when asked. The stopping when asked was already reinforced in them from the _creation_ of content. My son, unfortunately, is allowed by his mother to consume far too much content and he has not developed the limits that his older sisters have. And I'm having a very hard time getting him away from it, especially as she encourages it! But sometimes I can persuade him with the hammer, some new nails, and some nice scraps of planks! He's already built a cage for the rabbit (with his father's help of course).
- azalemeth 5y ago
  > They were all able to create content (or write in VIM, yes, VIM) by 5 I think. Wow. I spy a future life of them writing high-karma answers in vim.stackexchange.com. Much like playing a musical instrument, I feel that the only way to really master that tool is to starting using it insanely young. It might cause a hell of a shock when they go to school and get indoctrinated^H taught painfully and slowly how to edit "a document" using Microsoft Word, however... Side story: my dad was a professional pilot, and if you replace "vim" with "IFR flight and approach planning", you get something of a similar ancedote with my life. He had an early flight simulation tool or two on a Macintosh LC, with a throttle quadrant, rudder, and yoke he built himself. I have many happy memories of trying to practice, e.g. carrier landings in an F/16 simulator, as a really quite small child. For my sixth birthday he took me up in a Piper Cherokee with a friend who was also a flight instructor, and I held straight and level flight and the long final. The colleague of his, sitting next to me, couldn't believe what the hell he was looking at. A lot of these things are just learnt fine motor skills and if you have a compliant and, above all, interested child, they pick them up very quickly. (My classmates didn't believe me – I had to wait until the photos he took on a film SLR were developed!)
comboy 5y ago
"Screen time use may have detrimental effects on children’s health and development [5–15]. Studies of young children report associations between screen time and cognitive development outcomes, such as short-term memory skills, academic achievement in reading and math, and language development [5, 11, 14]. High levels of screen time in early childhood also appear to negatively impact academic and social outcomes in the long-term [9]. Furthermore, while evidence for an association between screen time and BMI among preschool children was inconclusive [16], several studies have reported positive associations later in childhood [3, 6, 17, 18]. " from https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1479-5868-10-102 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1479-5868-10-102 There is more research if one is willing to look. Obviously context matters and screen time of HN parent teaching kid how to code and explore is different than screen time of a child that is given an ipad and left alone. But You are probably familiar with how child brain develops. And screen provide tiny amount and much much less complex information than the real world no matter how complicated software you run. Interacting with 3d objects, reacting to micro expressions and complex emotions of people gives much richer environment for brain to find patterns in and learn. You can give 6 year old kid who never had screen access a computer and it will figure it out faster than you think it could. But if the same 6-10 year old never played any sports or had interactions with other children - that's going to take a while, possibly even never fully getting there. Of course balance is always the answer but it's worth noting that difference.
- IanSanders 5y ago
  100% agree on the balance. "Screen time use may have detrimental effects on children’s health and development" to me associates with having witnessed (too many times) parents hand their child a tablet with some simple game or a video in order to free themselves for a conversation or another activity, rather than a parent teaching their kid programming. I wonder whether it's not the 'screen' itself, but the type of activity normally accompanying it. (And the sacrificed of other required complex activities, like you mentioned) Just like it's really challenging to bring a second language to the level of the mother tongue, and even then one mostly dreams in the native language (citation needed), I wonder if learning programming from young age will open one to a more "fluent" understanding.
- 5y ago
rendall 5y ago
Upvoted for: It does seem like they will spend the rest of the time attached to monitors regardless of what profession they choose. I always wanted to delay that as much as possible. Yes. Yes, do delay that as much as possible. This is a good thing. Strive to keep your kids off the screen. While acknowledging that screens now own the world. Speaking personally, I let my son use my old iTablet starting at 3.5 years. I gave him his own tablet a few months before his recent 6th birthday. Good decision? Bad decision? We shall see when his generation assumes the Mantle of Control. Regardless, I do not judge parents for their decisions with respect to this. It is a brave new world, and we are pioneers.
moron4hire 5y ago
We have two boys, 5 years old and 4 years old. We witnessed nearly immediate, negative changes in mood and behavior, with long-term aftershocks (on the range of days) whenever we would let them play games on an iPad. There is a similar effect from watching TV (or treating the iPad as just a TV), but it takes much longer to set in, so a typical session doesn't seem to have as strong of an effect. On the other hand, I let my 5-year-old play Nintendo 2DS games and it doesn't seem to have more of an effect than TV. So there is something unique about the interactive tablet that makes it particularly bad. The behavior looks a lot like stimulant withdrawal. There's an extreme irritability, tiredness, and seeking and pleading behavior. They look exactly like I do when I get crazy notions of quitting caffeine. I think it's the combination of interactivity and direct interface. Having objects respond to your touch feels like magic. It's sort of like the delight of going to a petting zoo that never has to get turned off. And the critters on the screen don't just sit there when you yell "move, pony, move!" They actually move at your command, diligently and flawlessly. When we consider that regular toddler misbehavior and temper tantrums stem from their inability to communicate effectively to be able to express their feelings and desires and have agency in the world, the sudden appearance of an object like the iPad, providing them perfect agency, must feel like an amazing power trip. The path to addiction seems pretty clear. I think where standard video games don't have quite the same effect is the hand-eye coordination aspect. There's a disconnect between the input modality and the action on the screen. There is a metaphor that has to be learned. There are precise timings that have to be muscle-memorized to keep Mario from falling down a whole. It's difficult and that's why the game is fun, mastering the difficulty is rewarding. But it also slows the child down and keeps them from mainlining the dopamine hit. So my wife and I have a basic rule of thumb: if we ourselves wouldn't sit down to consume a particular piece of media--be it because it's too boring or simplistic or patronizing for our adult tastes--that's a pretty good signal that it's probably designed to be addictive to toddlers. We then don't let the kids have it. They get to have Friday Night Movie (which we would do ourselves) and Saturday Morning Cartoons (which is just Netflix, because we don't have broadcast TV). During the week, we play card games like Uno, or do arts and crafts, for entertainment. As long as we're doing that, they don't even bring TV, video games, iPads, etc. up. Which is why it pisses me off so much that our kindergarten gave the kids Google Chrome Tablets with educational "games" for "homework". The first 3 months, the kids' homework was basic stuff like "draw a picture of your favorite thing" or "practice reading for 10 minutes". But this month, the entire schedule is "do this one app on the tablet". And in less than a week, we're already seeing the impact. Our oldest doesn't want to do anything but use his school-provided tablet. AAARGH! It makes me so angry I could just do something really stupid, like running for school board.
maximus-decimus 5y ago
If the world they live in is dominated by computers, maybe it is a good thing they get exposed to it from the beginning to get maximum proficiency. It might give them an advantage in life by making them more adapted to their world.
mmustapic 5y ago
I don't think it makes sense to introduce them to computing till they know how to read. Otherwise they are just using an ipad, which brings almost nothing to brain development, and that explains why very young children can immediately master the UI.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
  Try to do that with a computer. The UI of a computer is nowhere refined as a tablet. Even game consoles have UIs that presume reading. The switch has that super complex setup-controller-screen every time you boot it. Also, the child gets bored fast if nothing happens, which is obviously ok, peaked what could learn.
amelius 5y ago
If you teach your kids how to use a computer, then teach them yoga and meditation too.
jrochkind1 5y ago
Understanding how computers work and how to make them do what you want is now crucial to being able to understand and act in our current society. So it's never too early to introduce them to learning these things. When's it's too early for social media and entertainment? Well, I'm middle-aged and I still don't think I can be trusted to use it responsibly, so.
therein 5y ago
I was three years old when I "discovered" mspaint. I apparently taught myself English by looking at the operating system dialogues. And in the next couple of years came across some Visual Basic code and managed to set up Visual Studio after grabbing a pirated copy. Used that for years and never upgraded because couldn't get anything else to work. I don't know how I jumped the gap between reading text and writing code. I have very distinct memories from an early age of trying having to need to compare two numbers, no problem. And then comparing three, no problem. Comparing four, no problem either. Soon realizing one can compare any number of numbers but there was an issue comparing (and ultimately sorting) an arbitrary number of numbers. Which lead me to come up with my own silly bubblesort. During that time I remember pondering about concepts like code generation using code etc. Just sharing some memories I can remember. My point is, probably never too early to introduce your children to computing. As long as they have an intellectual attitude towards it.

zarzavat 5y ago

I don't think there's a bad time to introduce kids to a computer, that seems harmless. What is bad is when the computer/tablet/phone becomes a pacifier that parents park their kids in front of. Better to give them actual toys that they will grow out of, rather than a screen that they won't.

elliotec 5y ago
> Better to give them actual toys that they will grow out of, rather than a screen that they won't. I know this is true, but why is it true? We have a 4 month old, she gets very nearly zero screen time, but on the rare occasion I have her on my lap for a few minutes during a meeting, playing a game, or video chatting with overseas family/friends, she is enamored and, yes, pacified. What precisely is the harm in that vs "a toy they will grow out of?" I will also add I had what I have long considered it a privilege that I had been introduced to computers at a very young age, as well as the internet (for better or (probably mostly?) worse).
- fukpaywalls2 5y ago
  i made the mistake of giving my son a laptop at an early age so he could play some puzzle games while I work on my own laptop. Later on, his mother as part of pta of a private school handed out iphones as prizes to his class. Now, we seldom have any conversations as he his immersed in his own world.
  - skrbjc 5y ago
    Handed out iphones as prizes??? That sounds crazy. Also, you can change this behavior. It is crucial that you build a positive relationship with him and pull him out from the screen and into your life. Not sure how old your son is, but try setting aside a day or half a day where you both leave your phones and spend the time talking or doing an activity together.
- Al-Khwarizmi 5y ago
  I have a 2 year old who gets very little screen time. When he does get some, his facial expression looks like that of someone on drugs. He stops paying attention to anything else, he barely answers to anything, he only reacts to complain if an ad interrupts the video, or to move his head or complain if you're between him and the screen. Intuitively, that doesn't look healthy to me, I don't need to look at data to know that. Especially because it's not a reaction that he has to anything else (no other thing, even things he likes a lot, sucks his attention that much... breastfeeding gets close but even when breastfeeding he's less of a zombie than in front of a screen, he does play with things using his hand, foot, etc.) so it doesn't feel normal. And I find it very sad to see kids who spend hours a day in that state instead of interacting with the world, playing, etc. At 4 months old it's not so obvious because they interact less in general and don't have a lot of obvious states beyond "crying" and "not crying", but check his reactions to the screen when she gets a little older and you will see.
  - Moru 5y ago
    I would not worry too much about this. I see this behaviour in my kid but also her mother and mothers mother. It's something that runs in the family. And her family didn't have TV or other media the last 50 years and they still all have the zombie trait. Our family however grew up with TV from early age and we do not have the zombie trait.
  - krageon 5y ago
    > looks like that of someone on drugs So relaxed (or very activated)? Generally what people think of when they say "like they're on drugs" are just normal states that they disapprove of because it suits the narrative. In this case, the narrative is "screen time is bad". That means it is suitable to condemn it by making a parallel with something destructive, to make it feel like it has some association (which it neither physically nor mentally has been proven to have).
    - valvar 5y ago
      To further illustrate that point, would you say that someone who is deeply concentrated while reading a book or solving a puzzle looks like they're on drugs?
- watwut 5y ago
  It is rather absurd to worry about impact of "screen". There is no difference between your baby being exposed to tablet and to TV playing in the background or any other device. It does matter what the screen does and what plays on it. If you use it to chat with family or play youtube videos targeted at adults (like crafts or lectures), the kid will get bored quite quickly. If you put there teletubbies or kiddy game, the kid will watch for long. If you pack tablet with only drawing software and selected kiddy games, you will have good experience. If you put there games addictive to kids or games that stresses them, you will have bad experience. If you put there too difficult games, the kid will have no use for it. It really depends a lot on which software/games/activities you choose and how you setup house rules. And at this age, you have all the control.
  - the_af 5y ago
    Again, this is not my experience at all. The screen (interactive or just the TV) is a powerful attractor of my 2-year old and she will be glued to it almost regardless of the actual content. I do agree a tablet and the TV are similar in this regard.
    - Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
      I wonder if it's because she hasn't seen the screen as often? We grew with mine with a screen always on (work from home). We watch animes during lunch or as background when doing boring work. We play videogames, so more exposure. Point is, unless there is relevant content, she won't look at the screen (3 years old). We skip all the videos for kids (we do have occasional movies), but those videos with songs made me want to smash the screen, she just turns braindead. I wonder if all it's needed is a parent observing behavior and evolution of behavior to determine each activity's health based on a kid-by-kid basis, rather than generalizing.
- Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
  My daughter (3 years old) plays on the Nintendo switch. I never even considered tablet games, as a parent I raise the bar for harder things so she learns. The games she play are Kirby Star Allies and Yoshi's crafted world. She is not in trance like other parents described, she actually describes to me everything she does (which turns frustrating when you are focused). She also shuts the game down "after 1 level", when asked. Or immediately if necessary (we don't want to use that card, we want to respect her time). I think there is a big difference in the type of videogame. She has the best hand-eye coordination of her class (games are played with a controller) and she developed concepts like "background vs foreground", as well as aiming and an enormous amount of other things. That being said, after a certain amount of time, she will get unsettled. If she doesn't move away by herself, you have to remind her. What I think I see is "unrecognized boredom". She doesn't realize that yet, although she is getting better (I saw her pause and go do something else more than once lately). Finally, I play videogames with her. That has been amazing so far, I'm glad we did. All of this to say: toys gets boring way faster, but it's also easier to detect boredom. Creative toys do help, that's basically why duplo/wooden train/magnets are the top 3. I play with her and we have to buy new toys mainly because I get bored to play always with them (keep in mind that we talk about many, many sessions). Given that, yeah, I can see her getting bored faster. Videogames have way more content and variation. Do remember that paper, glue and colors are very cheap and can create a lot of stuff though!
zoid_ 5y ago
Whilst I would generally agree, in the days of simultaneously juggling working and childcare, devices like tablets can be a game changer. When configured correctly with educational apps and sensible time restrictions, it is great to see my toddler learn things for himself. The world has changed both with our roles are parents and the environment which we exist in. My 2 year old would quite happily be able to order food via an unavoidable touch screen interface at a fast food restaurant! Now.. to get him started with vim.
jvvw 5y ago
As a parent, the pacification thing is very useful sometimes! Toys don't pacify as reliably and if you are in a situation where you need or want to pay attention to other adults undisturbed but your child is there, then I totally understand the usage of screens in that way. Obviously you can try and arrange your life to avoid such situations but they do crop up. Work meetings with an ill child at home spring to mind! On the other hand, I did find that the more time you give your child playing with toys uninterrupted, the more their attention span for that improves.

killerpopiller 5y ago

what is Logo and Scratch? can’t find them in App store.

thevinter 5y ago
They are both programming languages aimed primarily at children https://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/what_is_logo/logo_programming.html https://el.media.mit.edu/logo-foundation/what_is_logo/logo_p... https://scratch.mit.edu/ https://scratch.mit.edu/
girvo 5y ago
Logo (or "turtle" based visual languages) do exist on the App Store, there are a few examples (searching "turtle programming ios" gave me a few) https://turtle360.net/ https://turtle360.net/ seemed pretty good. Scratch also does: https://apps.apple.com/us/app/scratchjr/id895485086 https://apps.apple.com/us/app/scratchjr/id895485086
vaylian 5y ago
Both are programming languages and both predate the (Apple) App store. Logo: 1967 Scratch: 2007 Apple App Store: 2008 (source: Wikipedia)

ben_w 5y ago

> Isn't 2 years old too young? There are ways to entertain creativity and abstract thinking at that age that involve more physical activity. Perhaps, though I’m not sure if there is a specific or well-defined reasonable minimum age. I was typing code blocks from the Commodore 64 user manual into the machine itself while learning to read — literally while still young enough to enjoy the The Very Hungry Caterpillar picture book — and yet this did not exclude the desire to also play with the various physical toys my parents got me.

stevekemp 5y ago

I'm not sure there's a "too young" or "too old". To children computers are basically magic anyway. Our child used to see me and his mother working/playing and was always interested. We'd launch OpenOffice, maximize the window, select a huge font, and let him mash the keys from the age of 2+. He'd amuse himself making characters appear, and we let him do this whenever he asked to "work on the puter". When he was three/four he'd start typing his name, our names, and the few words he knew how to spell. At some point he started using backspace/delete appropriately, and he seems to have learned that the mouse can be used to move the typing-point once the screen is full. I've no specific plans to force more on him, but when he gets to five I might explain a bit more what is happening, or show him some simple online flash-like games. (Obviously not flash these days ..) Ten minutes of typing/playing though? After a few hours outdoors every day isn't gonna do any harm though.

bvm 5y ago
> To children computers are basically magic anyway. to adults too!
deleted 5y ago
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jcelerier 5y ago

My father put me in front of a computer at ~4/5 (DOS era, so command-line too) ; I had mine in my room at ~9 iirc. Hasn't turned out too bad I think !

mro_name 5y ago

as long as the kids make haptic primary experiences and get a feeling of physical reality of the world, visual depth (screens may show 3d images but never are to the eye) and social contact with present people, it may be fine. Those people e.g. can be aware what's happening behind the screen – a person inside cannot. And it cannot help a hand either. But I find the first contact to a computer through a shell awesome. Text is what constitutes a usable computer, zeroes and ones don't yet. No matter what age, maybe after primary school may be fully sufficient.

rwnspace 5y ago

FWIW, I learned to read in order to load the Thomas The Tank Engine game from the CD drive via MS-DOS - and I went and spent most of my time on music and literature until I got into my tech in my late twenties. I think it's fine providing they're getting all the other fun creative IRL stuff too :)

lozenge 5y ago

As a data point, my first word in English was "eboot" (meaning reboot). Clearly too early.

dotancohen 5y ago
I suppose that's better than "orn".

dotancohen 5y ago

> when is it appropriate to introduce kids to a computer at all. A question that I've been struggling with since my first was born a decade and a half ago. I've decided on this: The computer is a tool. As soon as they could use a hammer, or a computer, or a match safely - and demonstrate that they know - then they could use them. My two daughters never got the hammer, my son got it at 5. And he knows why we call it the "thumb seeker". The "computer" tool I allow for _creating_ content at about 3 to 5, I don't remember exactly. They were all able to create content (or write in VIM, yes, VIM) by 5 I think. And they were able to stop when I tell them to... So I generally didn't have to tell them to. The "computer" tool I allow for _consuming_ content started at about 8 or 9 I think for the girls, when they demonstrated - and continue to demonstrate - that they can occupy themselves without the computer and that they can stop when asked. The stopping when asked was already reinforced in them from the _creation_ of content. My son, unfortunately, is allowed by his mother to consume far too much content and he has not developed the limits that his older sisters have. And I'm having a very hard time getting him away from it, especially as she encourages it! But sometimes I can persuade him with the hammer, some new nails, and some nice scraps of planks! He's already built a cage for the rabbit (with his father's help of course).

azalemeth 5y ago
> They were all able to create content (or write in VIM, yes, VIM) by 5 I think. Wow. I spy a future life of them writing high-karma answers in vim.stackexchange.com. Much like playing a musical instrument, I feel that the only way to really master that tool is to starting using it insanely young. It might cause a hell of a shock when they go to school and get indoctrinated^H taught painfully and slowly how to edit "a document" using Microsoft Word, however... Side story: my dad was a professional pilot, and if you replace "vim" with "IFR flight and approach planning", you get something of a similar ancedote with my life. He had an early flight simulation tool or two on a Macintosh LC, with a throttle quadrant, rudder, and yoke he built himself. I have many happy memories of trying to practice, e.g. carrier landings in an F/16 simulator, as a really quite small child. For my sixth birthday he took me up in a Piper Cherokee with a friend who was also a flight instructor, and I held straight and level flight and the long final. The colleague of his, sitting next to me, couldn't believe what the hell he was looking at. A lot of these things are just learnt fine motor skills and if you have a compliant and, above all, interested child, they pick them up very quickly. (My classmates didn't believe me – I had to wait until the photos he took on a film SLR were developed!)

comboy 5y ago

"Screen time use may have detrimental effects on children’s health and development [5–15]. Studies of young children report associations between screen time and cognitive development outcomes, such as short-term memory skills, academic achievement in reading and math, and language development [5, 11, 14]. High levels of screen time in early childhood also appear to negatively impact academic and social outcomes in the long-term [9]. Furthermore, while evidence for an association between screen time and BMI among preschool children was inconclusive [16], several studies have reported positive associations later in childhood [3, 6, 17, 18]. " from https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1479-5868-10-102 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1186/1479-5868-10-102 There is more research if one is willing to look. Obviously context matters and screen time of HN parent teaching kid how to code and explore is different than screen time of a child that is given an ipad and left alone. But You are probably familiar with how child brain develops. And screen provide tiny amount and much much less complex information than the real world no matter how complicated software you run. Interacting with 3d objects, reacting to micro expressions and complex emotions of people gives much richer environment for brain to find patterns in and learn. You can give 6 year old kid who never had screen access a computer and it will figure it out faster than you think it could. But if the same 6-10 year old never played any sports or had interactions with other children - that's going to take a while, possibly even never fully getting there. Of course balance is always the answer but it's worth noting that difference.

IanSanders 5y ago
100% agree on the balance. "Screen time use may have detrimental effects on children’s health and development" to me associates with having witnessed (too many times) parents hand their child a tablet with some simple game or a video in order to free themselves for a conversation or another activity, rather than a parent teaching their kid programming. I wonder whether it's not the 'screen' itself, but the type of activity normally accompanying it. (And the sacrificed of other required complex activities, like you mentioned) Just like it's really challenging to bring a second language to the level of the mother tongue, and even then one mostly dreams in the native language (citation needed), I wonder if learning programming from young age will open one to a more "fluent" understanding.
5y ago

rendall 5y ago

Upvoted for: It does seem like they will spend the rest of the time attached to monitors regardless of what profession they choose. I always wanted to delay that as much as possible. Yes. Yes, do delay that as much as possible. This is a good thing. Strive to keep your kids off the screen. While acknowledging that screens now own the world. Speaking personally, I let my son use my old iTablet starting at 3.5 years. I gave him his own tablet a few months before his recent 6th birthday. Good decision? Bad decision? We shall see when his generation assumes the Mantle of Control. Regardless, I do not judge parents for their decisions with respect to this. It is a brave new world, and we are pioneers.

moron4hire 5y ago

We have two boys, 5 years old and 4 years old. We witnessed nearly immediate, negative changes in mood and behavior, with long-term aftershocks (on the range of days) whenever we would let them play games on an iPad. There is a similar effect from watching TV (or treating the iPad as just a TV), but it takes much longer to set in, so a typical session doesn't seem to have as strong of an effect. On the other hand, I let my 5-year-old play Nintendo 2DS games and it doesn't seem to have more of an effect than TV. So there is something unique about the interactive tablet that makes it particularly bad. The behavior looks a lot like stimulant withdrawal. There's an extreme irritability, tiredness, and seeking and pleading behavior. They look exactly like I do when I get crazy notions of quitting caffeine. I think it's the combination of interactivity and direct interface. Having objects respond to your touch feels like magic. It's sort of like the delight of going to a petting zoo that never has to get turned off. And the critters on the screen don't just sit there when you yell "move, pony, move!" They actually move at your command, diligently and flawlessly. When we consider that regular toddler misbehavior and temper tantrums stem from their inability to communicate effectively to be able to express their feelings and desires and have agency in the world, the sudden appearance of an object like the iPad, providing them perfect agency, must feel like an amazing power trip. The path to addiction seems pretty clear. I think where standard video games don't have quite the same effect is the hand-eye coordination aspect. There's a disconnect between the input modality and the action on the screen. There is a metaphor that has to be learned. There are precise timings that have to be muscle-memorized to keep Mario from falling down a whole. It's difficult and that's why the game is fun, mastering the difficulty is rewarding. But it also slows the child down and keeps them from mainlining the dopamine hit. So my wife and I have a basic rule of thumb: if we ourselves wouldn't sit down to consume a particular piece of media--be it because it's too boring or simplistic or patronizing for our adult tastes--that's a pretty good signal that it's probably designed to be addictive to toddlers. We then don't let the kids have it. They get to have Friday Night Movie (which we would do ourselves) and Saturday Morning Cartoons (which is just Netflix, because we don't have broadcast TV). During the week, we play card games like Uno, or do arts and crafts, for entertainment. As long as we're doing that, they don't even bring TV, video games, iPads, etc. up. Which is why it pisses me off so much that our kindergarten gave the kids Google Chrome Tablets with educational "games" for "homework". The first 3 months, the kids' homework was basic stuff like "draw a picture of your favorite thing" or "practice reading for 10 minutes". But this month, the entire schedule is "do this one app on the tablet". And in less than a week, we're already seeing the impact. Our oldest doesn't want to do anything but use his school-provided tablet. AAARGH! It makes me so angry I could just do something really stupid, like running for school board.

maximus-decimus 5y ago

If the world they live in is dominated by computers, maybe it is a good thing they get exposed to it from the beginning to get maximum proficiency. It might give them an advantage in life by making them more adapted to their world.

mmustapic 5y ago

I don't think it makes sense to introduce them to computing till they know how to read. Otherwise they are just using an ipad, which brings almost nothing to brain development, and that explains why very young children can immediately master the UI.

Fire-Dragon-DoL 5y ago
Try to do that with a computer. The UI of a computer is nowhere refined as a tablet. Even game consoles have UIs that presume reading. The switch has that super complex setup-controller-screen every time you boot it. Also, the child gets bored fast if nothing happens, which is obviously ok, peaked what could learn.

amelius 5y ago

If you teach your kids how to use a computer, then teach them yoga and meditation too.

jrochkind1 5y ago

Understanding how computers work and how to make them do what you want is now crucial to being able to understand and act in our current society. So it's never too early to introduce them to learning these things. When's it's too early for social media and entertainment? Well, I'm middle-aged and I still don't think I can be trusted to use it responsibly, so.

therein 5y ago

I was three years old when I "discovered" mspaint. I apparently taught myself English by looking at the operating system dialogues. And in the next couple of years came across some Visual Basic code and managed to set up Visual Studio after grabbing a pirated copy. Used that for years and never upgraded because couldn't get anything else to work. I don't know how I jumped the gap between reading text and writing code. I have very distinct memories from an early age of trying having to need to compare two numbers, no problem. And then comparing three, no problem. Comparing four, no problem either. Soon realizing one can compare any number of numbers but there was an issue comparing (and ultimately sorting) an arbitrary number of numbers. Which lead me to come up with my own silly bubblesort. During that time I remember pondering about concepts like code generation using code etc. Just sharing some memories I can remember. My point is, probably never too early to introduce your children to computing. As long as they have an intellectual attitude towards it.