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People who continue to work Facebook at are going to face tough questions not just from current-day peers, but from future generations about why they willingly

People who continue to work Facebook at are going to face tough questions not just from current-day peers, but from future generations about why they willingly continued to work for such a company when there were no shortage of other opportunities available to them. At this point, engineers have to weigh the ability to work on "cool technical problems" at FB vs the serious risk of historical/reputational stain on one's legacy.

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odiroot 5y ago
> People who continue to work Facebook at are going to face tough questions not just from current-day peers, but from future generations about why they willingly continued to work for such a company when there were no shortage of other opportunities available to them. I honestly don't think so. Were all ex-Enron employees considered unemployable or even immoral? How about Union Carbide or tobacco concerns?
- yojo 5y ago
  I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison. It seems to me tech companies experience a much higher level of employee activism around moral issues than other industries. I also think it’s naive to assume reputational stigma won’t weigh in on hiring decisions. 3 years ago I was seeing a lot of candidates with Uber resumes. It wasn’t surprising that they were trying to leave, but it was surprising it took them so long. I would wonder if they were unable to get hired elsewhere. I always did my best to give a fair interview but it’s possible bias crept in.
  - Mehdi2277 5y ago
    I've worked at facebook in past. Facebook has been complimented at a number of interviews and one company I worked for very actively poached fb engineers. It was extremely clear for that company given the resume system even marked resumes with certain desirable companies and the sheer amount of fb employees we hired. I think my current one also has a bias for them. I have tended to stay in social media industry but I've interviewed for other industries and gotten positive reception with facebook. I remember once getting negative reception on going from facebook to a small lidar startup as interviewer viewed it as dropping to lower tier/prestige company. I have not worked for Uber, but my experience at other big tech companies is they're viewed fine too for engineering talent. As for non-engineers most of my family/friend group views facebook/similar very positively. Facebook remains largest social media by a ridiculous amount. Nearly 3 billion MAU is something no other social media company comes close. They certainly have negative sentiment too, but there are tons of people happy with them. I have worked at one company that some friends did show negative view and that was tiktok (mostly because of china concerns). Tiktok as worse then facebook in perception and even for tiktok it was still mild thing. It was never a job concern with both of them I found myself in demand anyway.
zapataband1 5y ago
Part of why I quit Oracle
dntrkv 5y ago
Oh please. Every major tech company does all the same shit Facebook does, the rest are just lucky that FB takes most of the heat. Tell me, what exactly has Facebook done that is so bad compared to Google, Amazon, or Microsoft?
- thehappypm 5y ago
  Facebook's entire business model is creating people addicted to chaos. It has radicalized people, led to suicides, and caused a huge rift in many countries' political ecosystems. That is their business model, it's the only way they make money. Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc have flaws but their business models don't depend on creating conflict.
  - hermitwriter 5y ago
    Source on those claims? Not "the media" but actual sources that haven't been debunked?
    - thehappypm 5y ago
      The New York Times article here has many linked sources, and their reporting on the situation has been stellar. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/technology/whistle-blower-facebook-frances-haugen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/technology/whistle-blower...
      - hermitwriter 5y ago
        Most of her claims make a gigantic leap to conclusions. I'm asking for a source that shows, for example, a suicide that was _because_ of Facebook. Radicalization trends as another example have been on the rise in the US long before FB or social media, and there are many other countries where FB exists but radicalization is on the decline. There is plenty wrong with FB, but this all seems like trying to pin a root cause to something b/c we need something to blame. Maybe correlation, but I don't see the causation.
FourHand451 5y ago
I hope you're right, but to me that sounds like the probable outcome in a world that is more just than the one we live in. A big organization leaves a lot of room to deny hands-on involvement with the more unsavory stuff that's going on, and on a purely technical level former Facebook engineers still have skills that will be valuable to future employers. I do not equate Facebook engineers with actual Nazis, but what seems more likely to happen to me is something analogous to the "Clean Wermacht" myth. I think anyone who isn't directly and publicly implicated in especially egregious actions is going to have all the deniability and technical skill they need to remain an attractive hire in most cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht
avree 5y ago
Hey, my middle name is your username! Neat. Anyways, the pearl-clutching around "working for bad companies" is pretty misplaced. Every major company has things they do that are bad; Google, Amazon, Netflix, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft to name a few are companies that regularly perpetrate evil daily. People need to work to earn a living, the idea that "they can easily just get a job somewhere else!" is a fallacy.
- wizzwizz4 5y ago
  Then don't work for a “major company”. There are hundreds – nay, tens of thousands – of other companies; heck, just Facebook alone has over a dozen household-name competitors.
- mbesto 5y ago
  > People need to work to earn a living, "Tragedy of the commons" much? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons > the idea that "they can easily just get a job somewhere else!" is a fallacy. Actually in today's tech driven world, this isn't hyperbole. There are more than enough opportunities for talented technologists to find opportunities outside of Facebook.
  - jfrunyon 5y ago
    And most of those opportunities are just as bad, as the person you were replying to pointed out.
    - barbazoo 5y ago
      Not in a negative-impact-on-society kind of way
    - mbesto 5y ago
      Not really. Facebook's disinformation capabilities are far worse than Apple's or Googles. Key differentiation example - Apple doesn't have an algorithm that bubbles up iMessages in the interface. Even then, I'm not evening actually alluding to those companies - I'm talking about other tech start-ups, smaller companies, etc.
RationPhantoms 5y ago
No they won't. Just like the employees at Dow Chemical Company who helped manufacturer Agent Orange or White Phosphorous, they won't get questioned.
strict9 5y ago
When I've gone to tech conferences over the years, I've heard talks given by fb/instagram devs about the problems they're working on, and the tools they've created to do it. On one level it seems very alluring--pay, technical challenges, being at the cutting edge of new technology. But for me those points can't counteract the role fb has in society and what people generally think of the company. Culture is important, and it starts at the top.
- _lqaf 5y ago
  Every quarter or so, I tell FB head hunters to go away. I do think about the money I'm turning down, but I also like to sleep at night. Having morals does cost money. And yes, I do think less of the 'typical' FB employee. Everyone's story is different and I'll listen, but the presumption is that working there means being OK with enabling genocide for a nice paycheck.
- trts 5y ago
  > Culture is important, and it starts at the top. Over my career it is somewhat impressive how true this has been. Across companies that say very similar things about what it means to be an employee of X, the behavior of execs and senior leadership ripples through the ranks in obvious ways. When statements from high-level people are empty or specious, you can expect to encounter the same in your own management chain. It only takes a moment to remember this each time a FB recruiter pings me. Couldn't I be one of the people working on solving these big problems and making XX% more while doing it? It's a false choice.
  - hef19898 5y ago
    True, also wgen it comes to changes up the chain. I don't buy the whole "these high level org and management changes won't affect the way work" stuff anymore.
- dylan604 5y ago
  >what people generally think of the company which is what exactly? if they didn't like it, they'd be leaving in droves. tech nerds are really the only ones upset about anything that FB has done/is doing. instead, the average person looks at what they get from FB. most of them never, not once, think at about what cost. to them it is free to use, and that's all that matters. raising privacy concerns goes no where. manipulating people's emotions isn't really doing much negatively to FB either. addicts are like that though. deep down, they might actually be aware that what they are doing is not good for them, but that isn't strong enough to fight the addiction.
president 5y ago
I believe this is false. Every day at work, I see many instances of people choosing self-enrichment over the betterment of society. We are lost in a see of state and corporate sponsored activism for social justice causes, which distracts from other significant existential issues.
fallingknife 5y ago
I think it will be more like someone who worked on the violent video games that were "ruining" the children back in the 90s.
- goatlover 5y ago
  Or all those evil, "devil-worshipping" heavy rockers, and the the back-masking records. Or like when Bart Simpson said, "Eat my shorts" for the first time, and how that was teaching kids disrespect. Which is truly hilarious now given the many years of Family Guy, South Park and other adult cartoon shows.
Unklejoe 5y ago
"They paid me $400k a year whereas the median income in the US was like $30k a year" would be enough for a lot of people to forgive you for the egregious crime of working for Facebook.
- cronix 5y ago
  Yeah, no one ever looks down at people, or companies, that put their own personal interests (money) above that of society.
  - smabie 5y ago
    I mean people might do look down on it, but they're hypocritics: pretty much everyone puts their own interests ahead of other people/society.
    - bigfudge 5y ago
      I just don't think that's true. Some people scrupulously pay taxes, but others don't and push the line as hard as possible. There's real variation in people's willingness to 'defect' from the public good.
    - Frondo 5y ago
      I don't mean this to be snarky, but this sounds like someone who has no family, no kids, never been in a serious relationship. Once you're committed to one or more other people, you're pretty much putting their interests ahead of yours most of the day. If my friends who are parents are to be trusted, their kids are their priority in every substantial decision they make. Also, it's surprisingly cynical to say that people don't put their interests above society -- most of the people I know have taken on work and hobbies that don't maximize their personal gain, because they'd rather improve society somewhat.
- gherkinnn 5y ago
  "They paid me $400k a year when similar companies for similar positions paid me $320k" is a very different story.
seaman1921 5y ago
> no shortage of other opportunities available to them well clearly there aren't better opportunities because no one is loyal like that - they would have obviously quit if there were better opportunities.
- duderific 5y ago
  This disregards the effect of inertia. Looking for a job is a lot of extra work that must be undertaken in the context of already having a job - working around schedules, interviewing etc. It is simply easier to continue working at the same job, so I don't think you can say "they would have obviously quit if there were better opportunities." Edit: sp
jrockway 5y ago
I think the blame is misplaced. People work at Facebook because they offer among the highest salaries, and are insulated enough from the bad PR to not feel bad about it. It is hard to understand the breadth of scope of the FAANGs. You read in the newspaper that Google exists to turn over dissidents to the Chinese government, but there are plenty of engineers working on making the Linux kernel more secure, or providing gigabit internet for $79/month. Should those engineers quit and go work on CRUD apps for some startup at half their salary? It doesn't make much sense, and that's why people don't do it. (I don't know if the scope of Facebook is similar to that of Google, but I imagine it is. I submitted a patch to some open source project of theirs that collects diagnostic information from NTP servers. Are those people really to blame for targeting their product at 6 year olds? No. They just want to work on interesting projects for a great salary, and hope that whatever bigger system they're part of works out.) Basically, it won't be effective to be an Internet Tough Guy and tell all Facebook employees to quit. They won't do it. Make their work illegal (regulate), or make their work unprofitable (stop buying their ads), and the problem solves itself.
- 8note 5y ago
  I've never bought an ad on Facebook, and yet it continues to run, and Facebook won't comply to non-US laws, and will almost certainly have a large influence on whatever regulations are put in. Your suggestions are even more toothless than banning Facebook engineers from the local bars and breweries
  - threatofrain 5y ago
    Facebook won't comply with non-US laws? Are we talking about the EU or China?
- egypturnash 5y ago
  Well, we know how much your morals cost, then.
  - archontes 5y ago
    You're missing the point... completely. Until unethical behavior doesn't pay dividends, people will engage in that unethical behavior. Ostracizing them to any degree less than the sex offender list offers fails at 'making it not pay dividends'. Snide comments are useless, and posting a snide comment in response to a post literally saying that snide comments are useless is hilarious and ironic.
bryanrasmussen 5y ago
I remember reading a comment very much like this 3-4 years ago about Uber. Can't find it of course, but there was this article 4 years ago https://insights.dice.com/2017/03/08/uber-alumni-trouble-finding-work/ https://insights.dice.com/2017/03/08/uber-alumni-trouble-fin... although that is about Uber having a bad work culture, not that working there meant you were ethically compromised which is what I remember being the previous concern - like yours is for FB.
notyourwork 5y ago
I've not seen engineers coming from advertisement space get chastised, why is Facebook a special case of this?
Consultant32452 5y ago
I wonder how frequently this "stain" impacts people in practice. I've got some defense contractors on my resume. I suppose some people might flinch on that, but I've never felt like I had a problem getting work or growing my career. I suspect it might be like that. A small percentage of people would nix you, but you would never know. Compared to something like the porn industry, which I've heard is death to a resume.
root_axis 5y ago
I doubt it. There are so many companies out there doing far, far, far worse than Facebook and nobody bats an eye with respect to the employees that work at these firms.
fleddr 5y ago
Not at all. To an employer, having FB on your resume is a positive from a professional point of view. As for peers, what exactly is your obligation to them?
kodah 5y ago
Personally, I don't find it that easy to get another job as an engineer so I'd be very careful with that logic. For reference, I'm a dropout and therefore struggle with abstract algorithm problems like the ones they dump on you to solve in 30-60 minutes in interviews. I certainly can solve them, just not in that kind of timeframe, but that is now a common expectation in order to achieve a certain level of (mostly unrelated) problem solving and income.
tombert 5y ago
This hasn't really played out historically has it? Goldman Sachs (as a corporation) did a lot of bad leading up to the 2008 financial crash, and yet we continue to hire ex-engineers from there. I used to work for Apple, but they didn't really ask my advice on how they should charge people on the app store, or how they should make it difficult to repair the phone, or how they should throttle phones if the batteries get worse. I was just a mediocre software engineer working a mediocre job that paid relatively well. Should I be blamed for all the problems listed out before if I didn't contribute to any of them directly? Maybe, and I do think there is an argument to be made for that, but I don't think that's how most people think. Most people are relatively happy to blame the executives of a company with an understanding that regular salaried workers are more or less stuck with what they're doing.
- DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
  For some reason everyone likes to blame Goldman for the 2008 crash, but no one wants to blame themselves for getting over-leveraged by buying 3 houses. Everyone likes to blame Facebook, but no one wants to blame themselves when they're one of the 2.8 billion using Facebook. Everyone likes to blame oil companies, but they drive cars and have plastic all around them. I worked at an oil company for a few years. I sat near the environmental engineers who were doing their best to make it clean as possible. HN readers want to hate oil workers for doing their jobs but then turns around and still demands cheap oil.
  - namdnay 5y ago
    And then the oil companies turn around and sponsor someone like Greg Abbott, and you realise “oh yes, they are face-eating leopards after all”
- Symbiote 5y ago
  I disagree -- I think a lot of people are concerned with what their job is. Many people have a lot less agency, but software developers are in demand and can more easily change jobs than many other careers. Would you have worked for an oil extraction company, like Shell or BP? Would you have worked for the NSA? A defence contractor? The military itself? There are plenty of technical roles in these sectors, with (at least in Britain, where I studied) a big presence at careers fairs, recruitment events etc. But I, like all my friends, ignored them all. Someone else I knew joined GCHQ. He was keen to catch criminals, defend British interests etc. I wouldn't do it, but at least he had considered the morality of it and decided it aligned with his own. Working on something without any care for how it's used, or what is being built... these people deserve criticism for their complacency, at least.
BurpIntruder 5y ago
They already are. We rarely hire former facebook engineers anymore. They cost too much, most of them have done very little interesting work and of the FAANG companies, they are by far the most entitled.
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spamizbad 5y ago
Unfortunately there are no shortage of prestige-chasing engineers who will gladly code anything for the right price.
lhorie 5y ago
I disagree. This comment seems to come from the idea that work defines you, but that doesn't generalize at all. Family and friends hearing that you work at FB will almost alway only think about the prestige/money angle. I work at Uber, another company whose leadership historically made some very questionable decisions, and not once did I ever get holier-than-thou crap from acquaintances. And even if I did, I have enough internal perspective to appropriately call BS or disregard people who think parroting 5 year old articles constitutes having an educated opinion on the company today. Another similar example is Microsoft. They were demonized extremely heavily a decade or two ago, but these days, claiming that working there is a reputational stain would be pretty laughable. LinkedIn, Groupon, AirBnb, etc all had negative press at one point or another. But if you work in any of those, the most common reaction is "Oh, cool!"
skyfaller 5y ago
Frankly I think that there will be a cultural divide, just as we have pro-covid and anti-covid camps today (due in part to Facebook's algorithmic amplification of disinformation). Many will say "actually, surveillance targeting children is good", "actually, social networks that promote genocide are good", "actually, lying about your numbers and destroying entire industries that rely on your numbers is good", etc. Some entities and people will take a stand, and some will proudly hire anyone who seems in danger of experiencing consequences. In order for Facebook engineers to be judged by future generations: - there would have to be future generations - they would have to have accurate information about what Facebookers have done - they would have to live in functioning democracies where accountability is possible The result of Facebook/Meta's efforts, intentional or not, will be to prevent any of these eventualities from coming to pass.
- lexpar 5y ago
  Are you actually saying that Facebook is working to prevent _future generations of humanity_ from existing? I can't imagine how you expect people to take you seriously.
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jdavis703 5y ago
People could apply this same reasoning to folks who work for the US federal government. Or defense contractors. Or fossil fuel companies. Thing is, I think very few people would see "Chevron" on someone's resume and refuse to hire them (aside from maybe environmental organizations).
- rightbyte 5y ago
  > People could apply this same reasoning to folks who work for the US federal government. Or defense contractors. People making weapons are not smug do-gooders. It is pretty clear what a gun or cigarette does to people. > Or fossil fuel companies. Views move slowly. Hopefully Facebook will be viewed as the asbesthos or lobotomy of the early 21st century.
gonzo41 5y ago
I totally agree, but why does it take hurting kids to be the line. With the agency most tech workers have, the behaviour of their employers really reflects on on the employee.
_3u10 5y ago
Unlikely. Regarding peers, first, if it becomes an issue just take it off your resume. Second, don't work with those people. Go somewhere else that pays well and work with other mercs instead of people working for free soda to save the whales. As to future generations, as long as you take responsibility for it your grandkids will think it's pretty bad ass. Kids: Grandpa, what did you do for work? Grandpappy: Well, kids, let me tell you about the time that grandpappy came up with this algorithm that reduced obesity in America by several points and made millions doing it. Big Ag wasn't happy about it, but dietpills.com loved it. Kids: Legend.
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xwdv 5y ago
If this is what prevents someone from considering a job at Facebook they’re a fool. This day of judgement will never come. Future generations have potential to be just as egregious, maybe even more so than today’s generation of engineers. They might even invent something even worse than Facebook, and we’ll look back at today as the good old days. The only questions that will be asked is how did they make so much money and what advice do they have for replicating such success.
temptemptemp111 5y ago
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sabas123 5y ago
If we assume that "evilness" or what ever metric we use to shame FB employees is transitive, is it really possible to work in a way that is significantly better?
gremloni 5y ago
lol at demonizing facebook in a world with real life cartoon villains running around.
spicyramen 5y ago
I totally agree. I know people that work in different areas, but their salaries are mainly paid by Ads money. To me is like working for Nazi party and saying you were only working in poster ink technology...
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tester756 5y ago
Because if they wouldn't, then I'd do that, as simple as that. Then retire after 5 years edit. Or maybe quit to other faang after years

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odiroot 5y ago

> People who continue to work Facebook at are going to face tough questions not just from current-day peers, but from future generations about why they willingly continued to work for such a company when there were no shortage of other opportunities available to them. I honestly don't think so. Were all ex-Enron employees considered unemployable or even immoral? How about Union Carbide or tobacco concerns?

yojo 5y ago
I’m not sure that’s a fair comparison. It seems to me tech companies experience a much higher level of employee activism around moral issues than other industries. I also think it’s naive to assume reputational stigma won’t weigh in on hiring decisions. 3 years ago I was seeing a lot of candidates with Uber resumes. It wasn’t surprising that they were trying to leave, but it was surprising it took them so long. I would wonder if they were unable to get hired elsewhere. I always did my best to give a fair interview but it’s possible bias crept in.
- Mehdi2277 5y ago
  I've worked at facebook in past. Facebook has been complimented at a number of interviews and one company I worked for very actively poached fb engineers. It was extremely clear for that company given the resume system even marked resumes with certain desirable companies and the sheer amount of fb employees we hired. I think my current one also has a bias for them. I have tended to stay in social media industry but I've interviewed for other industries and gotten positive reception with facebook. I remember once getting negative reception on going from facebook to a small lidar startup as interviewer viewed it as dropping to lower tier/prestige company. I have not worked for Uber, but my experience at other big tech companies is they're viewed fine too for engineering talent. As for non-engineers most of my family/friend group views facebook/similar very positively. Facebook remains largest social media by a ridiculous amount. Nearly 3 billion MAU is something no other social media company comes close. They certainly have negative sentiment too, but there are tons of people happy with them. I have worked at one company that some friends did show negative view and that was tiktok (mostly because of china concerns). Tiktok as worse then facebook in perception and even for tiktok it was still mild thing. It was never a job concern with both of them I found myself in demand anyway.

zapataband1 5y ago

Part of why I quit Oracle

dntrkv 5y ago

Oh please. Every major tech company does all the same shit Facebook does, the rest are just lucky that FB takes most of the heat. Tell me, what exactly has Facebook done that is so bad compared to Google, Amazon, or Microsoft?

thehappypm 5y ago
Facebook's entire business model is creating people addicted to chaos. It has radicalized people, led to suicides, and caused a huge rift in many countries' political ecosystems. That is their business model, it's the only way they make money. Amazon, Google, Microsoft etc have flaws but their business models don't depend on creating conflict.
- hermitwriter 5y ago
  Source on those claims? Not "the media" but actual sources that haven't been debunked?
  - thehappypm 5y ago
    The New York Times article here has many linked sources, and their reporting on the situation has been stellar. https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/technology/whistle-blower-facebook-frances-haugen.html https://www.nytimes.com/2021/10/03/technology/whistle-blower...
    - hermitwriter 5y ago
      Most of her claims make a gigantic leap to conclusions. I'm asking for a source that shows, for example, a suicide that was _because_ of Facebook. Radicalization trends as another example have been on the rise in the US long before FB or social media, and there are many other countries where FB exists but radicalization is on the decline. There is plenty wrong with FB, but this all seems like trying to pin a root cause to something b/c we need something to blame. Maybe correlation, but I don't see the causation.

FourHand451 5y ago

I hope you're right, but to me that sounds like the probable outcome in a world that is more just than the one we live in. A big organization leaves a lot of room to deny hands-on involvement with the more unsavory stuff that's going on, and on a purely technical level former Facebook engineers still have skills that will be valuable to future employers. I do not equate Facebook engineers with actual Nazis, but what seems more likely to happen to me is something analogous to the "Clean Wermacht" myth. I think anyone who isn't directly and publicly implicated in especially egregious actions is going to have all the deniability and technical skill they need to remain an attractive hire in most cases. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myth_of_the_clean_Wehrmacht

avree 5y ago

Hey, my middle name is your username! Neat. Anyways, the pearl-clutching around "working for bad companies" is pretty misplaced. Every major company has things they do that are bad; Google, Amazon, Netflix, Facebook, Apple, Microsoft to name a few are companies that regularly perpetrate evil daily. People need to work to earn a living, the idea that "they can easily just get a job somewhere else!" is a fallacy.

wizzwizz4 5y ago
Then don't work for a “major company”. There are hundreds – nay, tens of thousands – of other companies; heck, just Facebook alone has over a dozen household-name competitors.
mbesto 5y ago
> People need to work to earn a living, "Tragedy of the commons" much? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tragedy_of_the_commons > the idea that "they can easily just get a job somewhere else!" is a fallacy. Actually in today's tech driven world, this isn't hyperbole. There are more than enough opportunities for talented technologists to find opportunities outside of Facebook.
- jfrunyon 5y ago
  And most of those opportunities are just as bad, as the person you were replying to pointed out.
  - barbazoo 5y ago
    Not in a negative-impact-on-society kind of way
  - mbesto 5y ago
    Not really. Facebook's disinformation capabilities are far worse than Apple's or Googles. Key differentiation example - Apple doesn't have an algorithm that bubbles up iMessages in the interface. Even then, I'm not evening actually alluding to those companies - I'm talking about other tech start-ups, smaller companies, etc.

RationPhantoms 5y ago

No they won't. Just like the employees at Dow Chemical Company who helped manufacturer Agent Orange or White Phosphorous, they won't get questioned.

strict9 5y ago

When I've gone to tech conferences over the years, I've heard talks given by fb/instagram devs about the problems they're working on, and the tools they've created to do it. On one level it seems very alluring--pay, technical challenges, being at the cutting edge of new technology. But for me those points can't counteract the role fb has in society and what people generally think of the company. Culture is important, and it starts at the top.

_lqaf 5y ago
Every quarter or so, I tell FB head hunters to go away. I do think about the money I'm turning down, but I also like to sleep at night. Having morals does cost money. And yes, I do think less of the 'typical' FB employee. Everyone's story is different and I'll listen, but the presumption is that working there means being OK with enabling genocide for a nice paycheck.
trts 5y ago
> Culture is important, and it starts at the top. Over my career it is somewhat impressive how true this has been. Across companies that say very similar things about what it means to be an employee of X, the behavior of execs and senior leadership ripples through the ranks in obvious ways. When statements from high-level people are empty or specious, you can expect to encounter the same in your own management chain. It only takes a moment to remember this each time a FB recruiter pings me. Couldn't I be one of the people working on solving these big problems and making XX% more while doing it? It's a false choice.
- hef19898 5y ago
  True, also wgen it comes to changes up the chain. I don't buy the whole "these high level org and management changes won't affect the way work" stuff anymore.
dylan604 5y ago
>what people generally think of the company which is what exactly? if they didn't like it, they'd be leaving in droves. tech nerds are really the only ones upset about anything that FB has done/is doing. instead, the average person looks at what they get from FB. most of them never, not once, think at about what cost. to them it is free to use, and that's all that matters. raising privacy concerns goes no where. manipulating people's emotions isn't really doing much negatively to FB either. addicts are like that though. deep down, they might actually be aware that what they are doing is not good for them, but that isn't strong enough to fight the addiction.

president 5y ago

I believe this is false. Every day at work, I see many instances of people choosing self-enrichment over the betterment of society. We are lost in a see of state and corporate sponsored activism for social justice causes, which distracts from other significant existential issues.

fallingknife 5y ago

I think it will be more like someone who worked on the violent video games that were "ruining" the children back in the 90s.

goatlover 5y ago
Or all those evil, "devil-worshipping" heavy rockers, and the the back-masking records. Or like when Bart Simpson said, "Eat my shorts" for the first time, and how that was teaching kids disrespect. Which is truly hilarious now given the many years of Family Guy, South Park and other adult cartoon shows.

Unklejoe 5y ago

"They paid me $400k a year whereas the median income in the US was like $30k a year" would be enough for a lot of people to forgive you for the egregious crime of working for Facebook.

cronix 5y ago
Yeah, no one ever looks down at people, or companies, that put their own personal interests (money) above that of society.
- smabie 5y ago
  I mean people might do look down on it, but they're hypocritics: pretty much everyone puts their own interests ahead of other people/society.
  - bigfudge 5y ago
    I just don't think that's true. Some people scrupulously pay taxes, but others don't and push the line as hard as possible. There's real variation in people's willingness to 'defect' from the public good.
  - Frondo 5y ago
    I don't mean this to be snarky, but this sounds like someone who has no family, no kids, never been in a serious relationship. Once you're committed to one or more other people, you're pretty much putting their interests ahead of yours most of the day. If my friends who are parents are to be trusted, their kids are their priority in every substantial decision they make. Also, it's surprisingly cynical to say that people don't put their interests above society -- most of the people I know have taken on work and hobbies that don't maximize their personal gain, because they'd rather improve society somewhat.
gherkinnn 5y ago
"They paid me $400k a year when similar companies for similar positions paid me $320k" is a very different story.

seaman1921 5y ago

> no shortage of other opportunities available to them well clearly there aren't better opportunities because no one is loyal like that - they would have obviously quit if there were better opportunities.

duderific 5y ago
This disregards the effect of inertia. Looking for a job is a lot of extra work that must be undertaken in the context of already having a job - working around schedules, interviewing etc. It is simply easier to continue working at the same job, so I don't think you can say "they would have obviously quit if there were better opportunities." Edit: sp

jrockway 5y ago

I think the blame is misplaced. People work at Facebook because they offer among the highest salaries, and are insulated enough from the bad PR to not feel bad about it. It is hard to understand the breadth of scope of the FAANGs. You read in the newspaper that Google exists to turn over dissidents to the Chinese government, but there are plenty of engineers working on making the Linux kernel more secure, or providing gigabit internet for $79/month. Should those engineers quit and go work on CRUD apps for some startup at half their salary? It doesn't make much sense, and that's why people don't do it. (I don't know if the scope of Facebook is similar to that of Google, but I imagine it is. I submitted a patch to some open source project of theirs that collects diagnostic information from NTP servers. Are those people really to blame for targeting their product at 6 year olds? No. They just want to work on interesting projects for a great salary, and hope that whatever bigger system they're part of works out.) Basically, it won't be effective to be an Internet Tough Guy and tell all Facebook employees to quit. They won't do it. Make their work illegal (regulate), or make their work unprofitable (stop buying their ads), and the problem solves itself.

8note 5y ago
I've never bought an ad on Facebook, and yet it continues to run, and Facebook won't comply to non-US laws, and will almost certainly have a large influence on whatever regulations are put in. Your suggestions are even more toothless than banning Facebook engineers from the local bars and breweries
- threatofrain 5y ago
  Facebook won't comply with non-US laws? Are we talking about the EU or China?
egypturnash 5y ago
Well, we know how much your morals cost, then.
- archontes 5y ago
  You're missing the point... completely. Until unethical behavior doesn't pay dividends, people will engage in that unethical behavior. Ostracizing them to any degree less than the sex offender list offers fails at 'making it not pay dividends'. Snide comments are useless, and posting a snide comment in response to a post literally saying that snide comments are useless is hilarious and ironic.

bryanrasmussen 5y ago

I remember reading a comment very much like this 3-4 years ago about Uber. Can't find it of course, but there was this article 4 years ago https://insights.dice.com/2017/03/08/uber-alumni-trouble-finding-work/ https://insights.dice.com/2017/03/08/uber-alumni-trouble-fin... although that is about Uber having a bad work culture, not that working there meant you were ethically compromised which is what I remember being the previous concern - like yours is for FB.

notyourwork 5y ago

I've not seen engineers coming from advertisement space get chastised, why is Facebook a special case of this?

Consultant32452 5y ago

I wonder how frequently this "stain" impacts people in practice. I've got some defense contractors on my resume. I suppose some people might flinch on that, but I've never felt like I had a problem getting work or growing my career. I suspect it might be like that. A small percentage of people would nix you, but you would never know. Compared to something like the porn industry, which I've heard is death to a resume.

root_axis 5y ago

I doubt it. There are so many companies out there doing far, far, far worse than Facebook and nobody bats an eye with respect to the employees that work at these firms.

fleddr 5y ago

Not at all. To an employer, having FB on your resume is a positive from a professional point of view. As for peers, what exactly is your obligation to them?

kodah 5y ago

Personally, I don't find it that easy to get another job as an engineer so I'd be very careful with that logic. For reference, I'm a dropout and therefore struggle with abstract algorithm problems like the ones they dump on you to solve in 30-60 minutes in interviews. I certainly can solve them, just not in that kind of timeframe, but that is now a common expectation in order to achieve a certain level of (mostly unrelated) problem solving and income.

tombert 5y ago

This hasn't really played out historically has it? Goldman Sachs (as a corporation) did a lot of bad leading up to the 2008 financial crash, and yet we continue to hire ex-engineers from there. I used to work for Apple, but they didn't really ask my advice on how they should charge people on the app store, or how they should make it difficult to repair the phone, or how they should throttle phones if the batteries get worse. I was just a mediocre software engineer working a mediocre job that paid relatively well. Should I be blamed for all the problems listed out before if I didn't contribute to any of them directly? Maybe, and I do think there is an argument to be made for that, but I don't think that's how most people think. Most people are relatively happy to blame the executives of a company with an understanding that regular salaried workers are more or less stuck with what they're doing.

DwnVoteHoneyPot 5y ago
For some reason everyone likes to blame Goldman for the 2008 crash, but no one wants to blame themselves for getting over-leveraged by buying 3 houses. Everyone likes to blame Facebook, but no one wants to blame themselves when they're one of the 2.8 billion using Facebook. Everyone likes to blame oil companies, but they drive cars and have plastic all around them. I worked at an oil company for a few years. I sat near the environmental engineers who were doing their best to make it clean as possible. HN readers want to hate oil workers for doing their jobs but then turns around and still demands cheap oil.
- namdnay 5y ago
  And then the oil companies turn around and sponsor someone like Greg Abbott, and you realise “oh yes, they are face-eating leopards after all”
Symbiote 5y ago
I disagree -- I think a lot of people are concerned with what their job is. Many people have a lot less agency, but software developers are in demand and can more easily change jobs than many other careers. Would you have worked for an oil extraction company, like Shell or BP? Would you have worked for the NSA? A defence contractor? The military itself? There are plenty of technical roles in these sectors, with (at least in Britain, where I studied) a big presence at careers fairs, recruitment events etc. But I, like all my friends, ignored them all. Someone else I knew joined GCHQ. He was keen to catch criminals, defend British interests etc. I wouldn't do it, but at least he had considered the morality of it and decided it aligned with his own. Working on something without any care for how it's used, or what is being built... these people deserve criticism for their complacency, at least.

BurpIntruder 5y ago

They already are. We rarely hire former facebook engineers anymore. They cost too much, most of them have done very little interesting work and of the FAANG companies, they are by far the most entitled.

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spamizbad 5y ago

Unfortunately there are no shortage of prestige-chasing engineers who will gladly code anything for the right price.

lhorie 5y ago

I disagree. This comment seems to come from the idea that work defines you, but that doesn't generalize at all. Family and friends hearing that you work at FB will almost alway only think about the prestige/money angle. I work at Uber, another company whose leadership historically made some very questionable decisions, and not once did I ever get holier-than-thou crap from acquaintances. And even if I did, I have enough internal perspective to appropriately call BS or disregard people who think parroting 5 year old articles constitutes having an educated opinion on the company today. Another similar example is Microsoft. They were demonized extremely heavily a decade or two ago, but these days, claiming that working there is a reputational stain would be pretty laughable. LinkedIn, Groupon, AirBnb, etc all had negative press at one point or another. But if you work in any of those, the most common reaction is "Oh, cool!"

skyfaller 5y ago

Frankly I think that there will be a cultural divide, just as we have pro-covid and anti-covid camps today (due in part to Facebook's algorithmic amplification of disinformation). Many will say "actually, surveillance targeting children is good", "actually, social networks that promote genocide are good", "actually, lying about your numbers and destroying entire industries that rely on your numbers is good", etc. Some entities and people will take a stand, and some will proudly hire anyone who seems in danger of experiencing consequences. In order for Facebook engineers to be judged by future generations: - there would have to be future generations - they would have to have accurate information about what Facebookers have done - they would have to live in functioning democracies where accountability is possible The result of Facebook/Meta's efforts, intentional or not, will be to prevent any of these eventualities from coming to pass.

lexpar 5y ago
Are you actually saying that Facebook is working to prevent _future generations of humanity_ from existing? I can't imagine how you expect people to take you seriously.

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jdavis703 5y ago

People could apply this same reasoning to folks who work for the US federal government. Or defense contractors. Or fossil fuel companies. Thing is, I think very few people would see "Chevron" on someone's resume and refuse to hire them (aside from maybe environmental organizations).

rightbyte 5y ago
> People could apply this same reasoning to folks who work for the US federal government. Or defense contractors. People making weapons are not smug do-gooders. It is pretty clear what a gun or cigarette does to people. > Or fossil fuel companies. Views move slowly. Hopefully Facebook will be viewed as the asbesthos or lobotomy of the early 21st century.

gonzo41 5y ago

I totally agree, but why does it take hurting kids to be the line. With the agency most tech workers have, the behaviour of their employers really reflects on on the employee.

_3u10 5y ago

Unlikely. Regarding peers, first, if it becomes an issue just take it off your resume. Second, don't work with those people. Go somewhere else that pays well and work with other mercs instead of people working for free soda to save the whales. As to future generations, as long as you take responsibility for it your grandkids will think it's pretty bad ass. Kids: Grandpa, what did you do for work? Grandpappy: Well, kids, let me tell you about the time that grandpappy came up with this algorithm that reduced obesity in America by several points and made millions doing it. Big Ag wasn't happy about it, but dietpills.com loved it. Kids: Legend.

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xwdv 5y ago

If this is what prevents someone from considering a job at Facebook they’re a fool. This day of judgement will never come. Future generations have potential to be just as egregious, maybe even more so than today’s generation of engineers. They might even invent something even worse than Facebook, and we’ll look back at today as the good old days. The only questions that will be asked is how did they make so much money and what advice do they have for replicating such success.

temptemptemp111 5y ago

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sabas123 5y ago

If we assume that "evilness" or what ever metric we use to shame FB employees is transitive, is it really possible to work in a way that is significantly better?

gremloni 5y ago

lol at demonizing facebook in a world with real life cartoon villains running around.

spicyramen 5y ago

I totally agree. I know people that work in different areas, but their salaries are mainly paid by Ads money. To me is like working for Nazi party and saying you were only working in poster ink technology...

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tester756 5y ago

Because if they wouldn't, then I'd do that, as simple as that. Then retire after 5 years edit. Or maybe quit to other faang after years