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Honest question from someone who knows virtually nothing about chemistry or material science: is there a difference in quality between synthetic and natural ivo
by tombert 5y ago
Honest question from someone who knows virtually nothing about chemistry or material science: is there a difference in quality between synthetic and natural ivory? If not, why is poaching even still a viable market?
- estaseuropano 5y agoSuperstition. Elephants and tigers are not hunted for inherent qualities of their bodies, but for the belief that consumption of their parts in various ways helps health/virility/...
- bilekas 5y agoSuperstition really seems to be one of the largest factor when it comes to animal hunting/consumption. It's ridiculous and a little bit ironic that something supposedly to bring good fortune will result in wide scale killing of animals, living earthlings.
- nickff 5y ago>"It's ridiculous and a little bit ironic that something supposedly to bring good fortune will result in wide scale killing of animals, living earthlings." How is this ironic? Most cultures have prized animal products throughout recorded history, and many have practiced sacrifices, which is literally the killing of the being.
- lowkey_ 5y agoNot the parent, but the irony is that to bring good fortune, you bring incredible misfortune (extinction, even) upon other living things.
- nickff 5y agoIt seems like the comment I responded to was referring to something like an 'incongruity', and saying it was '[situational] irony', but it doesn't really satisfy the definition of situational irony (from wikipedia): >"Situational irony: The disparity of intention and result; when the result of an action is contrary to the desired or expected effect." In this specific case, the intention of extracting animal products caused the animals to be killed, which is not contrary to the expected effect (unfortunate as it may be).
- bilekas 5y agoSee my below comment - but no 'incongruity' is something completely different to irony.
- bilekas 5y agoOkay, lets give context of irony, Elephants are hunted for their amazing mystical power to bring good fortune to humans who posses their tusks. Now lets imagine the elephants actually provide a long distant benefit to humans, butterfly effect style. Maybe their migration involves knocking over some dormant trees with their tusks, which they're known to do, that would then knock over seeds for new trees. This would aid in the containment of soil and prevent soil erosion. Instead, consider they're all gone, the trees all die off without seeding, then windstorms etc turn more land into desert. Ironically those same hunters now have less land to grow food from. Thus less fortune, the action to bring more fortune has resulted in less. This is a stretch of an example using just 1 animal, but whats more confusing is why it needed to be defined through the purview of defining ironic. Edit: As mentioned this is 1 example, but there are an uncountable scenarios of 'medicinal' practices that require the 'rarest' animal components to 'work' from. Point is, its all superstition and it contributes far too much.
- BitwiseFool 5y agoTaking it a step further, the "value" of a sacrifice depends on how precious the thing is that you are sacrificing. Sacrificing a mouse is not the same as sacrificing a healthy goat.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- qorrect 5y agoIt brings good fortune to the humans, not the animals.
- BurningFrog 5y agoHas Viagra not reached China yet?
- phkahler 5y agoSure, but if they bleach it white and sell it as powder under some "Ivory" branding that will just increase poaching.
- BitwiseFool 5y agoUltimately, a good number of people will want "the real thing", even if it is virtually identical. There are plenty of people who think lab grown diamonds are illegitimate, despite having the exact same chemical composition as mined diamonds. For the rich and powerful, the Ivory is more important as a status symbol than anything else. Synthetic Ivory is effectively useless as a signal. Plus, there are people out there who sincerely believe that Ivory works as an ingredient in medicine and they will seek it out.
- joe_the_user 5y agoSynthetic ivory is great as a signal if it's indistinguishable and you lie about it's origins. But a lot of people want to/need-to "signal themselves". Which reminds me, I'm not sure why cops don't try to move fake ivory into black markets, have sting operations where once they catch a dealer, instead of arresting them, force them to sell their fake ivory, undercut the market enough that poachers have incentive. Probably China isn't that concerned about the problem.
- bussierem 5y agoUnfortunately (even ignoring chemistry/matsci), one of the answers to that is simply "natural ivory is becoming a scarce resource". When something is scarce, it becomes sought after, which can result in it even becoming a Veblen Good[1] over time. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp https://www.investopedia.com/terms/v/veblen-good.asp
- tw04 5y agoThis will probably be downvoted but the reality is it's because there's a ton of new money in China where they're still valuing things like Ivory culturally. There's no cultural stigma at this point. The government has banned it but the black market trade is still strong. See shark fin soup as another example.
- throwaway69123 5y agoAlso if you buy the offical story of Covid it is this desire for exotic expensive animals with questionable natural medical benefits that caused the zootopic jump of Covid from bats to humans. So the real cost of this sort of trade now couldnt be higher.
- deleted 5y ago[deleted]
- junon 5y agoMost virologists buy what you call the "official story", for what it's worth.
- throwaway69123 5y agoIt isnt worth much, there is no physical evidence to support either theory, lab leak or wet market. We just have to take the word of a communist regeime, "there is no graphite on the roof" comes to mind.
- eberkund 5y agoI imagine people view it similarly to leathers made from animal hides to synthetic materials. Synthetics may be better in some ways but people are in-part attracted by the character or feel that the imperfections of a natural material provide.
- gowld 5y agoMcDonald's chicken nuggets aren't perfect ovaloids. They have artificial imperfections that people enjoy. (There are 4 different molds.) You don't need natural imperfections.
- jeromegv 5y agoLeather from animal and leather from plastic is extremely different. It’s not just the imperfection, it doesn’t stretch the same way and the composition is fundamentally different Synthetic ivory is ivory.
- imtringued 5y agoIsn't synthetic leather prone to flaking?
- abruzzi 5y agoas an amateur pianist, I've played pianos with and without ivory keys, and the feel of ivory is a bit better. I'm not sure why, but it seems like it doesn't get as slick from sweat as you play. Of course, piano keys are not the cause of current ivory demand to the best of my knowledge, and I'll happily take non-ivory keys.
- optymizer 5y agocould it be because ivory is porous, wicking away the moisture?
- bluGill 5y agoPiano makers have not used real Ivory in many years. There is a market for used ivory on pianos, but that is only to repair antique pianos. Piano makes/owners have been careful about this for long enough that pianos with real ivory get a pass because everyone understands they are dealing only with ivory from before we knew better.
- 8note 5y agoIs that comparing ivory wth plastic keys, or ivory with some synthetic version of ivory?
- pengaru 5y agoWhen you have over a billion people in a culture valuing ivory, it doesn't take a large percentage of holdouts/morons/assholes/psychopaths to pose an existential threat to Elephants. Multiplication is a bitch.