17 ms·

Australians ‘complacent’ to rapid growth in digital surveillance

257 points by tac0_ 5y ago

bobbytit 5y ago
No, we are not complacent. If we leave our home detention to protest anything we are arrested. Where the fuck can I claim asylum?
- grecy 5y ago
  Ironically, Australians are currently not even permitted to leave the country!
  - prawn 5y ago
    I know of a family who moved to the US within the last 12 months. Has that been a more recent change that would've prevented them leaving at all?
    - postingawayonhn 5y ago
      You can apply for an exemption and moving your residence would normally be permitted.
    - grecy 5y ago
      Australians currently have to be granted an "exemption" to leave the country [1]. Moving to a new country permanently (with proof) qualifies, but just going on a holiday does not. [1] https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia (quote from that link: "Australia’s borders are currently closed and international travel from Australia remains strictly controlled" )
      - prawn 5y ago
        I was just getting at the distinction that it was a blanket rule. Slum it with the rest of us. You'll get back on the road eventually! ;) Like you, I make money from travel, but difference is being stuck in AU suits me because it's where I have my contacts!
  - nhinck 5y ago
    Source please.
    - postingawayonhn 5y ago
      > Australia’s borders are currently closed and international travel from Australia remains strictly controlled to help prevent the spread of COVID-19. International travel from Australia is only available if you are exempt or you have been granted an individual exemption. https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia
      - nhinck 5y ago
        So you can leave? I know two people that left.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  With the US keeping the land border closed, it will soon be impossible to leave Canada without being vaccinated (or bribing a border guard).
  - grecy 5y ago
    It's a forgone conclusion that no country in the world will let you in without proof of COVID vaccination. This has been the status quo for dozens and dozens of countries around the world with regards to for example Yellow Fever Vaccination, so it's nothing new at all. Many people just didn't know about it because they never tried to go to those countries before (West Africa is my personal experience)
    - AndrewBissell 5y ago
      "nothing new at all" lol. When I was a kid you could cross the border into Canada without even showing a passport.
    - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
      > It's a forgone conclusion that no country in the world will let you in without proof of COVID vaccination. There are countries that require all arrivals to quarantine regardless of vaccination status. I live in one of them (Taiwan). The issue with COVID vaccination is that it's still possible to become infected and transmit the virus to others even if you're vaccinated, so requiring vaccination for arrivals is a good way for countries to reduce the risk of arrivals getting seriously ill and burdening their healthcare systems, but it doesn't at all prevent the virus (including possibly new variants) from being introduced into their populations. The science shows that neutralizing antibody levels wane quickly after COVID vaccination, and with Delta, this appears to be what's causing large numbers of breakthroughs. For example, we had a case here recently where an ostensibly healthy airline pilot in her 40s caught a Delta breakthrough case just 2 months after she received her second Moderna jab. A single jab of yellow fever vaccine on the other hand provides lifelong protection and we have decades of data showing its efficacy. Also of great importance to note: unlike SARS-CoV-2, yellow fever does not transmit directly from person to person.
- clouddrover 5y ago
  You could try claiming asylum in America. Here's the view from your front porch in America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LozQg0oX-Gw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LozQg0oX-Gw
fblp 5y ago
Is there an equivalent to the Electronic Frontiers Foundation or American Civil Liberties Union for Australia that i can donate to to advocate against this?
- decryption 5y ago
  Electronic Frontiers Australia - https://www.efa.org.au/ https://www.efa.org.au/ and Digital Rights Watch - https://digitalrightswatch.org.au/ https://digitalrightswatch.org.au/
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
BiteCode_dev 5y ago
Well, we know that mass surveillance has been installed in the USA, we have detailed proof of it, and this hasn't change a thing. They are still under mass surveillance. And people are still carrying trackers in their pocker. They put cameras in the front door bell, always online microphones with speech analysis in their living room, give all their life records, textual or in images, to giants companies that have demonstrated the ability to store and analyse that forever. People don't use more free software. They look at you like you are mad if you don't want to install whatsapp. Even in HN we have people still wondering why we should use Firefox. Why would we be judging Australians as "complacent" ? Humanity is complacent. I've been told the boiling frog is a myth, but I'm pretty sure frogs are talking about boiling humans as a telling metaphore.
- adventured 5y ago
  While it's definitely true that humanity is complacent overall (clearly), there are some very important differences between the US and Australia. Australia has actually moved on ending secure encryption for example. That's not yet the case in the US and it's questionable whether the authorities will be able to (they already would have, if they could have), overcoming the significant constitutional hurdles.
  - BiteCode_dev 5y ago
    There is no need to end encryption in the USA, because the way they collect the data works around the problem entirely. With secret subpoenas, gag orders and programs like PRISM, they get what they need directly from the source. Either from the services hosting the data, or the devices producing/receiving the data. The data is never collected while in transit, when it's encrypted. They got the keys for the servers, and back-doors to our devices. They don't care about encryption at all. Once again, freedom is not a technical problem: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
- melomal 5y ago
  This literally is the divide between HN types and everyday individuals. The latter pays little attention because they generally do not care whilst HN will debate and suggest endless fixes to the problem - which are always technically more difficult or cumbersome. This is why people buy Apple products on each iteration, religiously for some, because they want it to work, be pretty and the desire of everyone. The UK has been well known for their love of CCTV and yet crimes still go unpunished and people don't get caught.
tediousdemise 5y ago
I've seen it mentioned somewhere that Australia is essentially the Western, English-speaking countries' testing ground for privacy and freedom-eroding legislation. If the laws are deemed a "success" by the ruling class, they are exported to the other Western countries.
theknocker 5y ago
Wow, what a unique phenomenon.
m0zg 5y ago
Complacent? I've read some comments by Australians on this very site which lead me to believe they're 100% welcoming their upcoming fascist totalitarian police state, because they've been led to believe this will bring "security".
chroem- 5y ago
It's been an odd experience having a few Australian HN posters attempt to rationalize to me why their police are justified in shooting people who leave their homes with rubber bullets, and why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences. I guess strict authoritarianism must be accompanied with equally strict media propaganda.
- na85 5y ago
  >why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences. Say what? Got a link?
  - k1t 5y ago
    Might be this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-australias-home-quarantine-trial-work/100398878 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-austra... https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarantining-australians-via-app-requires-selfies-for-proof https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarant... [Home quarantining] participants will receive advice via the smartphone app as to their obligation at random times to provide the selfie back to the public health teams. Should that not be responded to in a period of time, follow up calls or visits are made so as to make sure that the person is where they should be,” Foley explained.
    - na85 5y ago
      That's heinous.
      - javagram 5y ago
        Seems less heinous than spreading a dangerous virus and killing hundreds or thousands of citizens? We’ve seen other countries try that approach (e.g. here in the USA) and it clearly harms society and has led to massive suffering and loss of life. Considering this is being trialed as an alternative to being locked under guard in a hotel or cabin for two weeks, it’s actually less invasive too…
spikepuppet 5y ago
As an Australian, I can definitely say I'm not complacent. The rise of all this surveillance here certainly unnerves me, and has definitely helped hasten my want to emmigrate ASAP.
- ntSean 5y ago
  You would immigrate to where exactly?
  - 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
    I have come to a similar conclusion. Where the fuck am I supposed to go? Everywhere has problems, shit laws, and social issues.
    - Tomis02 5y ago
      I don't mean to offend you but this is very funny. Immigrants from 3rd world countries are often told "why don't you stay at home and fix your own country?" Well, I guess we've come full circle, it's bad everywhere.
      - 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
        No I agree with you, i take no offence. I see the irony here completely. Especially given Australia's absolutely draconian laws and treatment of asylum seekers.
  - spikepuppet 5y ago
    Good point, though anywhere where a powers haven't been given to law enforcement agencies to modify data would be good. And even more so and people are happy to just let it happen.
- pedalpete 5y ago
  This is unfortunate. I immigrated to Australia 10 years ago, and when I arrived, I was shocked by the level of acceptance of surveillance and even the police rights to search. I'm not an Australian citizen, but I make sure the Australians I know are aware that it isn't like this everywhere around the world. If you don't like it, it's better to try to change it or bring awareness than just leave.
shitloadofbooks 5y ago
I don't think there's anything uniquely Australian about this. Australia is "first" because it is being used as the testing ground for this stuff, but the same playbook will be used in other countries in the coming years, especially those in which Murdoch's (a pretty unapologetic authoritarian) influences extend.
- totetsu 5y ago
  Authoritarian Australia.. it's like we're living in an Europa Universalis Mod
  - selimthegrim 5y ago
    Flow my beers (unless you’re Dan Andrews) the policeman said
- BLKNSLVR 5y ago
  I agree that Australia is being used as the canary in the coalmine for these authoritarian-leaning laws because the Australian people are, in general, entirely apathetic to politics that doesn't immediately affect them (Australians historically vote for the simple, and therefore unlikely in reality, immediate advantage - often in the form of tax cuts or inverse threats of tax hikes - at the expense of the future) - which therefore normalises these laws for the rest of the 5-eyes / western world. I have my thought-fingers around an idea to offer some kind of privacy-as-a-service service, but it'd have to be incorporated outside of Australia and its ownership made opaque through the use of shell companies - thankfully (/s) Australia has no legislation against conducting business in the country with such untraceable ownership (I think it was the Panama Papers that revealed both Wilson[0][1] Security and SA Power Networks[2][3] had opaque international ownership structures and it was essentially unknown which individuals were actually responsible for their operations - Wilson Security has government contracts and SA Power Networks literally run the power grid in South Australia). Australia doesn't have a terrorism problem, and yet is leading the charge in writing legislation to combat it. It smells long-rotten, but most of the Australian population have their noses buried in their socials. Australia has a corporate tax collection problem that neither side of government want to touch with a ten-foot pole. The small fish are easy to catch and therefore easy to score political points from. Legislation follows from this realization. [0]: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/82965338/low-profit-margins-and-a-panama-papers-link--whos-behind-wilson-parking https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/82965338/low-pro... [1]: https://www.smh.com.au/business/wilson-security-implicated-as-panama-papers-exposes-australian-tax-haven-benefactors-20160404-gny8g3.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/wilson-security-implicated-a... [2]: https://indaily.com.au/news/business/2016/04/05/sa-power-networks-caught-up-in-panama-saga/ https://indaily.com.au/news/business/2016/04/05/sa-power-net... [3]: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power-networks-owner-li-kashing-named-in-global-leak-of-tax-of-dealings-of-rich-and-famous/news-story/23f55933d6ac6bc6e3c08c7c3026779b https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power...
e67f70028a46fba 5y ago
They aren’t complacent. They are harassed, beaten and arrested if they object. Absolutely disgusting what the government there is doing to our Australian brothers and sisters. And of course no media coverage to speak of in the states.
- willbw 5y ago
  Would be interested to see your sources for the occurrence of harassment, beating and arrest.
  - chroem- 5y ago
    Here you go dude: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victoria-covid-update-rubber-bullets-fired-on-second-day-of-construction-protests-which-block-freeway https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victo...
  - bobbytit 5y ago
    Every single attempt at protesting against this tyranny has resulted in an overwhelming display of force by the police. If people are even slightly non-compliant when approached they are violently thrown on the ground and sat on.
    - shirro 5y ago
      Not justifying excessive use of violence my the Victorian police. There have been incidents by individuals and must be properly dealt with. If being thrown to the ground and sat on is a bad as it got for illegal protests during a public health stay at home order we still have some way to go before we reach full dystopia. The yanks had 5 people die during their failed insurrection. There were another 20 dead in riots in the same year. They had cops firing on media. The federal government's yearly bipartisan expansion of surveillance powers to catch up with our allies is seriously chilling shit that doesn't get reported in our media or pushed by the usual suspects on Facebook. But it concerns the hell out people in technical and legal areas and the problem will be with us long after emergency health orders are cancelled.
rajup 5y ago
Bought to you by the country where this tweet https://twitter.com/9newssyd/status/1430707532134236163?lang=en https://twitter.com/9newssyd/status/1430707532134236163?lang... is absolutely not satire or an Onion newspiece.
- rataata_jr 5y ago
  OMG
stephen_g 5y ago
It’s a fairly complex situation. Most people just don’t realise all the encroaching police state laws even exist (I refer to the real ones Federally, not the temporary State-Government health orders that some people have tried to blow out of proportion). We have very little media diversity. The few billionaires who own the few outlets enjoy the continuing tax cuts, random free grants, advertising spend, etc. from the conservative Government, so run what some critics have called a ‘protection racket for the Liberal National Party’. Almost nothing about any of the mass surveillance laws then really gets into the media, and if something is mentioned, it’s mostly presented in light of the Government’s line on it. The times any of this does get into the news is if there is any opposition from the Opposition party (Labor), who theoretically could get the numbers to block laws in the Senate by one vote. If it looks like they might not allow the Government to sweep them through, the Government then does what we call ‘wedging’ the Labor party. This is where they say “Labor wants the terrorists to win” or “Labor is voting in the interests of paedophiles”, and the media amplifies that narrative. Unfortunately it works because nobody knows what the laws are about (even though human rights groups, law groups, civil society groups, often even the Government’s own security legislation review committee have raised serious flaws, tried to get them out in the open but are ignored by the media). The Government also makes a mockery of any due process - sometimes having a public consultation period but ignoring it when basically every submission is negative and it’s clear nobody actually wants the laws (it’s just a box ticking exercise - if people bring it up later, they will seriously claim “but we consulted the public and experts” even though they ignored all of them). Some of these laws they have pushed through both Houses of Parliament in one or two days, with basically no debate. It’s a truly atrocious situation. There is an election coming up, but with most of the media enthusiastically running the protection racket and pushing basically just lies about politics, and only fairly actively politically informed people knowing what’s actually going on (that’s a small proportion of the population - the conservative party relies on that a lot), things may not improve.
- rstuart4133 5y ago
  I don't think it's that complex. I always thought it was inevitable that once everything we did happened via a computer, gathering it all together would be an irresistible attraction to man+dog. It was always going to accelerate, and it was always going to go into overshoot. And while it's painted in forum's like this as all negative, the reality is it's not. In fact there have been some pretty big positives. Crime levels have been dropping, while prosecutions have gone up. Criminologists have put that down to better surveillance. Cameras everywhere have meant the odds of getting caught for a given offense have gone up, so more people have been getting caught on their first offence. Amusingly, it's just just the criminals who have been on the receiving end of this - it's the law enforcers too. They used to be able to hide their overreaches behind the solidarity of the blue line. Now misbehaviour is very likely caught on a camera that's not behind the line, and the results have been on the world's headlines. I know the naturally privacy conscious feel like this is a personal invasion, I feel like that too on occasions. Their problem is that to date it's most likely been a net positive. Open societies with less criminality and corruption do better, and that seems to have been the net result so far. While like you I doubt many people have analysed in these terms, what they have done is evaluated how life is now vs before, and it seems OK. In simple terms, we can have more shiny things. Therefore the simply don't care some privacy guru seems a privacy apocalypse around the corner. So far the reverse has been true, and wot do these supposed experts know anyway? Still, I feel decidedly uncomfortable with the Assistance and Access bill, and its friends. My problem is not that they allow enough information to be mined - it's that they don't allow enough. Specifically, while they allow the government agencies to gather information on its citizens, the bills go out of their way to ensure the citizens have no idea how much their government is spying on them, or who is being spied upon, or why, or at whose behest. Without a little sunlight to sterilise things, it's inevitable malfeasance will grow in the dark. We already have numerous examples of petty privacy theft - police spying on their ex's, taxi's chasing credit card owners and the like. It's just a question of time before one politician plunders another's emails and polling data, or one of these systems gets hacked and mined for identity data for years before anybody becomes the wiser. The sad bit is, it is only after they have blatant examples staring them in the face that voters will conclude this overreach has downsides too. So we will have to suffer some real pain before there is a correction. The good news is the public education has already started. The Huawei bans are an example of that. It was only after Huawei won the contract to run the Danish telephone system, and later the Danish discovered their private data leaking across the world that politicians and intelligence agencies woke up to the fact the same data gathering capabilities they were exploiting could also be used against them. They reacted by banning Huawei. One day they will figure out that isn't going to fix the problem. We've since learnt Juniper was hacked for years, apparently by the Chinese who could watch all data flowing through their gear. And that's just the foreign players. In Russia we have private criminal gangs gathering data on a scale well beyond their Law Enforcement Agencies, and using it to shake down institutions like banks. The only cure I can see for this is a transparency on a scale we haven't seen to date. We have to put the days of blindly trusting government bureaucratic caesars to determine what data is collected, who can see it and what it is used for behind us. That information is too dangerous to be kept in the dark - it must be open to all citizens to inspect.
gfodor 5y ago
Once enough force has been deployed, oppression and complacency look similar from the outside.
OneLeggedCat 5y ago
"Well, if the cops are your threat actor, then don't use biometrics! Instead, just sit in jail..." - Troy Hunt, notable Australian Security dude
hresvelgr 5y ago
To anyone not from Australia or not across this, currently federal law enforcement can hack online accounts, remove, add, or modify data. They still need a warrant but can hack accounts in advance of a warrant, provided they have "reasonable suspicion" that the person they are hacking is committing a crime. There is also no recourse if the warrant is denied and they have already hacked the accounts of the person in suspicion. Having read The Gulag Archipelago, I am worried what will become of Australia in coming decades. While I am in opposition to how the current government operates, they're only part of the problem because the Identify and Disrupt bill flew through the senate in a day with support from both major parties. Not even taking into account that the suggested amendments to the bill to remove the broad clauses were ignored and the bill was passed anyway.
- jmnicolas 5y ago
  > Having read The Gulag Archipelago, I am worried what will become of Australia in coming decades. You might be interested in reading "Psychopathology of totalitarianism" by Ariane Bilheran. While she's French I think it applies to most of the western countries. It's 3 articles, so shorter than a book, maybe 30 min read in total : https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-totalitarianism-1-3-ariane-bilheran https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-total... https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-totalitarianism-2-3-ariane-bilheran https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-total... https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-totalitarianism-3-3-ariane-bilheran https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-total...
- stephen_g 5y ago
  Be careful - they’ve redefined ‘warrant’. For some of the hacking, they no longer need a warrant from a judge, but can get a “warrant” from the Administrative Appeals Tribunal (a body which concerns have been raised about it having been fairly heavily stacked with failed Liberal party candidates, Liberal party ex-staffers, etc. with no legal training or experience). There is even some provision for being able to declare it’s an emergency and just getting an internal “emergency authorisation”. So a lot of it has become (by law) actually warrantless.
grecy 5y ago
I've just returned to Australia after 15 years living all around the world, and I find it all fascinating and I have a bit of perspective on this. The Australian media have a very strong influence on people's lives - they daily create some uproar or other that people get addicted to, wound up about, and then forget. Two weeks ago it was the nuclear sub deal with USA (and dropping France), then it was some state leader resigning, then it was how Covid was badly handled, then it was... You get the idea. Anyway, what the media doesn't do is report on things the government doesn't want them to, like all the new surveillance laws being passed. Or when they do, it's very much labelled as "in your best interest" and "think of the children" and all that. Even if there is a 10 second mention of how this might be stepping on our privacy, there are quickly a line of experts saying that is not the case and that is clearly wrong. I watched a random segment about people protesting covid restrictions and they dropped the nugget "using encrypted communication apps on their phone to coordinate". My Dad immediately jumped to the conclusion that encrypted communications the police can't read is obviously a bad thing. So the Australian media works hand-in-hand with the government to keep everyone distracted, and to paint a very one-sided picture. It was fascinating to watch the whole "Facebook and Google must pay Rupert Murdoch money every time anyone posts a link to one of his news sites" play out from abroad, then come here and see what Australians know about it. The Australian law literally says Google and FB have to give money to Rupert Murdoch, but Australians think it's about getting FB and Google to pay their fair share of taxes. I've talked to dozens of people who say things like "That money will help build schools and hospitals, Facebook can certainly afford it." (which is utterly untrue) I find the majority here are severely misinformed, because the media inside the country is very controlled (And of course Australian don't know that, and get offended if I try to point that out or discuss it)
- clouddrover 5y ago
  > My Dad immediately jumped to the conclusion that encrypted communications the police can't read is obviously a bad thing. Then I think the problem here is your dad, not the media. Your dad's lack of clear thinking or otherwise is his responsibility. You can't run around in square circles claiming that it's all the media's fault for your dad's supposed wrongthink. There are two possibilities: 1. Your dad is a dumb, unsophisticated, unthinking lump who has no ideas of his own and who is easy for the evil Media to manipulate. 2. This is his genuine opinion. Either way, he gets to take responsibility for himself. And you get to respect him enough to engage with his point of view rather than invoking The Media as a pantomime villain.
kongin 5y ago
Covid, like 9/11 is a Trojan horse being used to turn seemingly sane people into fanatics who will support any measure to defeat the enemy. Watching people I used to respect become hateful shells of their former selves has been extremely unpleasant.
- AndrewBissell 5y ago
  If you thought "Terror" was an amorphous, undefeatable enemy on which to wage war, wait until you get a load of the War on the Virus.
- quenix 5y ago
  Can you give an example? “Sane people” who used to believe what and now believe what? Who or what is their enemy in this covid scenario? In which way are they hateful?
version_five 5y ago
Canada's only been marginally better. There's evidently a latent authoritarianism in the Anglosphere that has been activated by covid. The weird thing is that it literally seems to be in inverse proposition to how bad the epidemic actually is in a place. Australia, almost no cases, makes the GDR look like a libertarian paradise. US, way more heavily affected, mostly already moved on. And its certainly not causal. The Australian repression of its citizens had all been reactionary, its not like it's actually changed the net outcome.
- AlexandrB 5y ago
  Do you realize that if you reverse cause and effect in your statements it might show that more draconian vaccination policies are keeping these countries from being more heavily affected by COVID? I.e. isn't it just a valid to say that: "US, way more heavily affected because it mostly already moved on". In Canada it's certainly true that the major province with the most lax policies and the lowest vaccination rates - Alberta - is seeing the most COVID infections and deaths.
afarviral 5y ago
I live in NZ and feel that commentors of our govts approach overstate the level of authoritarianism we're experiencing. Its not universal but it feels more like the majority of people recognize that lockdowns and other restrictions are for the greater good. If you are arrested you are not going to be "disapeared", you will be processed like anyone else breaking a law. While we might collectively trust the current elected govt, I dont automatically trust that a future govt won't abuse new laws hastily written to lawfully restrict peope though. Anyway, mostly just came here to say how comical it seems when we're compared with genuine dictatoriships ruled by autocrats where you can simply be dissapeared if you step out of line. We're far from that and its just media bating. There's a conflict between being able to protest by gathering and spreading covid... Agree in the long term laws restricting congregating need to be monitored and disestablished. Its no mystery that kiwis feel part of a team when the current govt has done pretty well with its propaganda, but Its the approach Id have taken too.
- hulahoof 5y ago
  At least in Australia and for myself personally, I am not worried about how we are being treated _now_, I am worried about the powers that have the capacity to be abused in the future without a legal standing for opposition.
  - CTDOCodebases 5y ago
    Some of the laws we have in Australia are quite crazy. They are getting abused now or have been implemented with such little judicial oversight that there is no need to abuse them.
  - jay_kyburz 5y ago
    I feel the need to point out that you are probably not concerned about your treatment now because you have no power and are of no consequence. If you were a senior public servant and had uncovered some wrong doing in your, or any other department, you would care. If you were a journalist and writing a story that could embarrass somebody with power, you would care. If you were in the military and a witness war crimes, you would care. Even if you were a lawyer working to represent somebody, anybody with any power, you would care. People are being "disappeared" and legal proceedings conducted in secret. We found out about Witness K. What haven't we heard about?
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
hulahoof 5y ago
The problem is that it is very easy to have a decent life here in Australia. We have never had to feel the full force of the repercussions of our voting or policies and as such there is an apathy towards the direction of government policies, at least within my age group - "I don't care they can have my meme's" or some variation of "I have nothing to hide" is the most common attitude. Unfortunately, by the time the effects are felt by the vast majority of the population it will be too late - indeed with the recent Identify and Disrupt legislation, it would be completely legal for the government to take over the accounts of the leaders for any meaningful protests or awareness groups and use that trust to break the groups from the inside, or at the least crush momentum as it appears. If anyone has any useful advice or tips to raise awareness please let me know.
- cheesecake_luvr 5y ago
  If you have good, progressive ideas and have time and energy, run for parliament. If Hanson, Katter, Christensen and all the other useless junk can get in, you have a chance. We do need a real progressive alternative in politics. Greens are good, but we need more.
  - throwawaythekey 5y ago
    > Hanson, Katter, Christensen and all the other useless junk Are further on the freedom spectrum than the typical liberal or labour party member. In cases like these they are allies! It's important to realize that a large number of Australians will never vote for the greens or other progressives (for both fair and unfair reasons). We can work together on issues we agree on.
  - prawn 5y ago
    Easier to run on fear of simple things that people understand as being a more immediate threat, unfortunately.
  - incompatible 5y ago
    If people are voting for the likes of Hanson, Katter, and Christensen over the other candidates, it's unlikely that a scientist or engineer would have much chance. You'd be standing either as an independent or Greens candidate.
aazaa 5y ago
> The growing surveillance powers in Australia have been in the spotlight recently following the passage of the Identify and Disrupt bill last month. This handed “extraordinary” new powers to the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, allowing them to access three new warrants to access the computers and networks of those suspected of conducting criminal activity, “disrupt” their data and take over their accounts covertly. By the time complacency ends, it will be too late.
- bobbytit 5y ago
  Australia is a fake democracy so our citizens are powerless to do anything about it. Our politicians are chosen by corrupt ethnic branch stackers. The globalists have succeeded in dividing and conquering Australia through the trojan horse of multiculturalism.
  - brystarg 5y ago
    as a non-white Australian immigrant, what is this trojan horse of multiculturalism you are talking about?
    - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
      I’m not making a statement about my thoughts on the matter at all. There’s a Wikipedia article might be a good place to start if too haven’t read any criticism of multiculturalism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_multiculturalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_multiculturalis...
BloominOnion 5y ago
I'm becoming more and more despondent by the day here. I'll preface this with, I chose to be vaccinated - I believe the science, however... I watch people allow the Government and Corporations infringe on peoples body autonomy through mandatory vaccination. If you don't received a vaccine by a certain date - you'll lose your right to work in essential industries (it's a lot broader than just aged care or health care). If you protest(ed) this, you're labelled selfish, an anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorist. You're pepper sprayed or shot with rubber bullets - All enabled through health mandates - designed to protect your health (last I checked pepper spray will cause coughing and potential aerosol transmission). We officially have the most locked down state in the world yet we have a higher vaccination rate than North America. While our fully vaxxed rates lag behind the EU, our first dose coverage is marginally greater with an assumption that the fully vaxxed rate will catch up and potentially surpass. We have minimal deaths, but at a great cost to our freedom. When we do get our 'freedom' it'll be with surveillance and vaccine passports. Those who have decided not to be coerced into having a vaccine will not be allowed to participate in the economy and society at large. I fear this has set a precedent in this Country and we will see this occur again and again.
- masterof0 5y ago
  You have the right to not get the vaccine, but you do not have the right to put other people at risk. Private companies can and will employ/fire anyone for any reason. That's one of our freedoms (in the US), the freedom of not having to work with as**oles that want to put others at risk. True freedom if you ask me.
  - 87er43 5y ago
    True freedom is getting fired for hesitation over experimental medicine. People with hesitation are assholes who want to put others at risk. It's so clear now.
    - masterof0 5y ago
      It seems that is not experimental anymore, https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr....
eyeball 5y ago
Governments around the world are salivating at replicating the success of the Australia power grab.
taitems 5y ago
Cries of "Tyranny!" and "Give me liberty or give me death" are imported concepts that don't resonate quite as well here in Australia. The pearl clutching "Save Australia" protests were good for a chuckle[1], but are also accompanied by people advocating we rise up and murder our police[2]? When Florida has 50x the per capita death rate than that of Australia, it's pretty clear that the US chose liberty AND death[3]. Lockdown is hard, police have overstepped here and there -- but my family is safe and healthy, and my parents are alive. [1] https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/australians-react-with-extreme-sarcasm-to-new-york-protest-to-save-australia/news-story/48e4419fc9c776c47502efa29a8eb3f6 https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/australians... [2] https://youtu.be/FUKqliBYIvM https://youtu.be/FUKqliBYIvM [3] https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/florida-s-per-capita-covid-death-rate-is-50x-australia-s-122339397942?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_ma https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/florida-s-per-capita-covi...
- rajup 5y ago
  No thread on surveillance and privacy is complete without this clichéd quote, might as well be me: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin
  - elevenoh 5y ago
    Great quote.
- masterof0 5y ago
  The fact Australians can't leave or enter their own country, is pretty insane, even China (social score China) allows (with quarantine) their citizens to leave or enter the country. Australians let this happen to themselves, and now are screwed forever, sad to see.
- ryandrake 5y ago
  The words “tyranny” and “authoritarian” have become so overused since 2020 it’s almost comical. All over the English speaking world, not just Australia. Every little thing an authority does that someone doesn’t like is now called tyranny. Masks are tyranny. Vaccines are tyranny. Kicking a jerk out of your store is tyranny. The word has been watered down and exaggerated to the point of meaninglessness. After the boy cries wolf too often, if some kind of tyranny actually does happen, there won’t even be a strong word to describe it anymore.
Tomis02 5y ago
Australian soldiers committing war crimes in Afghanistan? Nobody bats an eyelid. Can't go to Kmart because the government tries to fight the pandemic? Riots in the streets. And you're surprised there's complacency to digital surveillance, when people are more outraged by slight personal discomfort than by murder. It's not even criticism, just an observation. People are very comfortable in their bubble and do not care about anything on the outside; you only get a reaction when the comfort bubble is disturbed.
- 0xy 5y ago
  Boiling the current lockdown regime to "can't shop in stores" is needlessly dismissive and reductionist. The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. I think it's fair to say that a country should be able to control inbound immigration to some extent. But preventing outbound immigration to foreign citizens is despicable. I know dozens of foreign citizens who have been stuck in Australia because they cannot leave without a permit, that isn't guaranteed even for compelling reasons. Numerous valid permits are being denied. That's one element. Then there's blatant police state policies and abuses such as a curfew with absolutely zero health evidence backing, police throwing unarmed people to the ground unprovoked into a pool of their blood and refusing medical attention for them [1], pepper spraying elderly people for peacefully protesting and more. [1] https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-cop-throwing-man-headfirst-into-the-ground-in-melbourne/news-story/a9b73be96d8ab5615f186db867de2262 https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-c...
  - ceejayoz 5y ago
    > The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. Only if you're a permanent resident of Australia. https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia > If you are an Australian citizen or a permanent resident you cannot leave Australia due to COVID-19 restrictions unless you have an exemption. > Due to the current COVID-19 situation in Australia, including state and territory border restrictions, business closures and social distancing requirements, international visitors are encouraged to return home when possible to do so.
miles 5y ago
> “Australian police show up on the doorstep with screenshots of social media posts. You see where this is going now?” Source and video: https://twitter.com/crypto_bitlord7/status/1447201259782504449 https://twitter.com/crypto_bitlord7/status/14472012597825044...
Gustomaximus 5y ago
1) I think a self balancing counter mechanism to improve this (if surveillance efforts continues) is make a rule people have to be informed they were under surveillance or gov hacked 5 years after the fact. With explanation. This time length shouldn't compromise most investigations. It would raise awareness to over reach, so if a small handful get this it's probably well focused but if ~5% of the country start getting letters, people realise the overreach, it will become discussed and create push back politically. Shining light on things is often the best solution to government issues. 2) Secondly, I'm seeing strange commentary on this thread and other locations a heap about Australian repression and tyranny type comments. And while there are privacy issues and there has been police overreach in the protests/quarrantine, comments seem way off the mark. I'm not sure if it bots/paid players trying to drive agenda or really skewed views. Some of the language is very properganda like and I've seen many posts on other platforms showing things out date or context clearly aimed to drive emotion. So I'd say fact check and consider context before getting too worked up about Australian issues of late. It's still a great country and not the run for the hills situation some people seem to be pushing.
Guthur 5y ago
I don't think it's particularly unique to Australia. I've seen the same thing happening in the UK as well. I'm currently residing in Australia and it's the same conversation as the UK, no one takes liberty seriously. The inherent trust that the it only affects people that have "done something wrong", of course that's a very nebulous concept. The US seems to be last place where a significant portion of the population value their liberty and where the worm tongue promises of the state are taken with a healthy bucket of sodium.
Sophistifunk 5y ago
As you will see hints of here, and in full effect if you ever stray into the strayan parts of reddit, most of my fellow citizens at best simply give no fucks, and at worst are raving statists under the impression they're with the screws rather than the inmates. To most Australians, "liberty" is a silly concept for yanks, much like halloween and black friday sales.
Voltage 5y ago
As an Australian, is the best approach to encrypt all my storage and communications? Is that even possible when the potential threat is the government?
- NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
  This is always the best approach. It's not like you need to make it perfect and unbreakable, just annoying enough to get in to relative to the value of doing so.

257 points by tac0_ 5y ago

No, we are not complacent. If we leave our home detention to protest anything we are arrested. Where the fuck can I claim asylum?

grecy 5y ago
Ironically, Australians are currently not even permitted to leave the country!
- prawn 5y ago
  I know of a family who moved to the US within the last 12 months. Has that been a more recent change that would've prevented them leaving at all?
  - postingawayonhn 5y ago
    You can apply for an exemption and moving your residence would normally be permitted.
  - grecy 5y ago
    Australians currently have to be granted an "exemption" to leave the country [1]. Moving to a new country permanently (with proof) qualifies, but just going on a holiday does not. [1] https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia (quote from that link: "Australia’s borders are currently closed and international travel from Australia remains strictly controlled" )
    - prawn 5y ago
      I was just getting at the distinction that it was a blanket rule. Slum it with the rest of us. You'll get back on the road eventually! ;) Like you, I make money from travel, but difference is being stuck in AU suits me because it's where I have my contacts!
- nhinck 5y ago
  Source please.
  - postingawayonhn 5y ago
    > Australia’s borders are currently closed and international travel from Australia remains strictly controlled to help prevent the spread of COVID-19. International travel from Australia is only available if you are exempt or you have been granted an individual exemption. https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia
    - nhinck 5y ago
      So you can leave? I know two people that left.
AndrewBissell 5y ago
With the US keeping the land border closed, it will soon be impossible to leave Canada without being vaccinated (or bribing a border guard).
- grecy 5y ago
  It's a forgone conclusion that no country in the world will let you in without proof of COVID vaccination. This has been the status quo for dozens and dozens of countries around the world with regards to for example Yellow Fever Vaccination, so it's nothing new at all. Many people just didn't know about it because they never tried to go to those countries before (West Africa is my personal experience)
  - AndrewBissell 5y ago
    "nothing new at all" lol. When I was a kid you could cross the border into Canada without even showing a passport.
  - LurkingPenguin 5y ago
    > It's a forgone conclusion that no country in the world will let you in without proof of COVID vaccination. There are countries that require all arrivals to quarantine regardless of vaccination status. I live in one of them (Taiwan). The issue with COVID vaccination is that it's still possible to become infected and transmit the virus to others even if you're vaccinated, so requiring vaccination for arrivals is a good way for countries to reduce the risk of arrivals getting seriously ill and burdening their healthcare systems, but it doesn't at all prevent the virus (including possibly new variants) from being introduced into their populations. The science shows that neutralizing antibody levels wane quickly after COVID vaccination, and with Delta, this appears to be what's causing large numbers of breakthroughs. For example, we had a case here recently where an ostensibly healthy airline pilot in her 40s caught a Delta breakthrough case just 2 months after she received her second Moderna jab. A single jab of yellow fever vaccine on the other hand provides lifelong protection and we have decades of data showing its efficacy. Also of great importance to note: unlike SARS-CoV-2, yellow fever does not transmit directly from person to person.
clouddrover 5y ago
You could try claiming asylum in America. Here's the view from your front porch in America: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LozQg0oX-Gw https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LozQg0oX-Gw

fblp 5y ago

Is there an equivalent to the Electronic Frontiers Foundation or American Civil Liberties Union for Australia that i can donate to to advocate against this?

decryption 5y ago
Electronic Frontiers Australia - https://www.efa.org.au/ https://www.efa.org.au/ and Digital Rights Watch - https://digitalrightswatch.org.au/ https://digitalrightswatch.org.au/
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]

BiteCode_dev 5y ago

Well, we know that mass surveillance has been installed in the USA, we have detailed proof of it, and this hasn't change a thing. They are still under mass surveillance. And people are still carrying trackers in their pocker. They put cameras in the front door bell, always online microphones with speech analysis in their living room, give all their life records, textual or in images, to giants companies that have demonstrated the ability to store and analyse that forever. People don't use more free software. They look at you like you are mad if you don't want to install whatsapp. Even in HN we have people still wondering why we should use Firefox. Why would we be judging Australians as "complacent" ? Humanity is complacent. I've been told the boiling frog is a myth, but I'm pretty sure frogs are talking about boiling humans as a telling metaphore.

adventured 5y ago
While it's definitely true that humanity is complacent overall (clearly), there are some very important differences between the US and Australia. Australia has actually moved on ending secure encryption for example. That's not yet the case in the US and it's questionable whether the authorities will be able to (they already would have, if they could have), overcoming the significant constitutional hurdles.
- BiteCode_dev 5y ago
  There is no need to end encryption in the USA, because the way they collect the data works around the problem entirely. With secret subpoenas, gag orders and programs like PRISM, they get what they need directly from the source. Either from the services hosting the data, or the devices producing/receiving the data. The data is never collected while in transit, when it's encrypted. They got the keys for the servers, and back-doors to our devices. They don't care about encryption at all. Once again, freedom is not a technical problem: https://xkcd.com/538/ https://xkcd.com/538/
melomal 5y ago
This literally is the divide between HN types and everyday individuals. The latter pays little attention because they generally do not care whilst HN will debate and suggest endless fixes to the problem - which are always technically more difficult or cumbersome. This is why people buy Apple products on each iteration, religiously for some, because they want it to work, be pretty and the desire of everyone. The UK has been well known for their love of CCTV and yet crimes still go unpunished and people don't get caught.

tediousdemise 5y ago

I've seen it mentioned somewhere that Australia is essentially the Western, English-speaking countries' testing ground for privacy and freedom-eroding legislation. If the laws are deemed a "success" by the ruling class, they are exported to the other Western countries.

theknocker 5y ago

Wow, what a unique phenomenon.

m0zg 5y ago

Complacent? I've read some comments by Australians on this very site which lead me to believe they're 100% welcoming their upcoming fascist totalitarian police state, because they've been led to believe this will bring "security".

chroem- 5y ago

It's been an odd experience having a few Australian HN posters attempt to rationalize to me why their police are justified in shooting people who leave their homes with rubber bullets, and why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences. I guess strict authoritarianism must be accompanied with equally strict media propaganda.

na85 5y ago
>why it's normal to be required to take surveillance photos of themselves in their own residences. Say what? Got a link?
- k1t 5y ago
  Might be this: https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-australias-home-quarantine-trial-work/100398878 https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-23/how-will-south-austra... https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarantining-australians-via-app-requires-selfies-for-proof https://katv.com/news/coronavirus/new-program-tracks-quarant... [Home quarantining] participants will receive advice via the smartphone app as to their obligation at random times to provide the selfie back to the public health teams. Should that not be responded to in a period of time, follow up calls or visits are made so as to make sure that the person is where they should be,” Foley explained.
  - na85 5y ago
    That's heinous.
    - javagram 5y ago
      Seems less heinous than spreading a dangerous virus and killing hundreds or thousands of citizens? We’ve seen other countries try that approach (e.g. here in the USA) and it clearly harms society and has led to massive suffering and loss of life. Considering this is being trialed as an alternative to being locked under guard in a hotel or cabin for two weeks, it’s actually less invasive too…

spikepuppet 5y ago

As an Australian, I can definitely say I'm not complacent. The rise of all this surveillance here certainly unnerves me, and has definitely helped hasten my want to emmigrate ASAP.

ntSean 5y ago
You would immigrate to where exactly?
- 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
  I have come to a similar conclusion. Where the fuck am I supposed to go? Everywhere has problems, shit laws, and social issues.
  - Tomis02 5y ago
    I don't mean to offend you but this is very funny. Immigrants from 3rd world countries are often told "why don't you stay at home and fix your own country?" Well, I guess we've come full circle, it's bad everywhere.
    - 0xdeadb00f 5y ago
      No I agree with you, i take no offence. I see the irony here completely. Especially given Australia's absolutely draconian laws and treatment of asylum seekers.
- spikepuppet 5y ago
  Good point, though anywhere where a powers haven't been given to law enforcement agencies to modify data would be good. And even more so and people are happy to just let it happen.
pedalpete 5y ago
This is unfortunate. I immigrated to Australia 10 years ago, and when I arrived, I was shocked by the level of acceptance of surveillance and even the police rights to search. I'm not an Australian citizen, but I make sure the Australians I know are aware that it isn't like this everywhere around the world. If you don't like it, it's better to try to change it or bring awareness than just leave.

shitloadofbooks 5y ago

I don't think there's anything uniquely Australian about this. Australia is "first" because it is being used as the testing ground for this stuff, but the same playbook will be used in other countries in the coming years, especially those in which Murdoch's (a pretty unapologetic authoritarian) influences extend.

totetsu 5y ago
Authoritarian Australia.. it's like we're living in an Europa Universalis Mod
- selimthegrim 5y ago
  Flow my beers (unless you’re Dan Andrews) the policeman said
BLKNSLVR 5y ago
I agree that Australia is being used as the canary in the coalmine for these authoritarian-leaning laws because the Australian people are, in general, entirely apathetic to politics that doesn't immediately affect them (Australians historically vote for the simple, and therefore unlikely in reality, immediate advantage - often in the form of tax cuts or inverse threats of tax hikes - at the expense of the future) - which therefore normalises these laws for the rest of the 5-eyes / western world. I have my thought-fingers around an idea to offer some kind of privacy-as-a-service service, but it'd have to be incorporated outside of Australia and its ownership made opaque through the use of shell companies - thankfully (/s) Australia has no legislation against conducting business in the country with such untraceable ownership (I think it was the Panama Papers that revealed both Wilson[0][1] Security and SA Power Networks[2][3] had opaque international ownership structures and it was essentially unknown which individuals were actually responsible for their operations - Wilson Security has government contracts and SA Power Networks literally run the power grid in South Australia). Australia doesn't have a terrorism problem, and yet is leading the charge in writing legislation to combat it. It smells long-rotten, but most of the Australian population have their noses buried in their socials. Australia has a corporate tax collection problem that neither side of government want to touch with a ten-foot pole. The small fish are easy to catch and therefore easy to score political points from. Legislation follows from this realization. [0]: https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/82965338/low-profit-margins-and-a-panama-papers-link--whos-behind-wilson-parking https://www.stuff.co.nz/business/industries/82965338/low-pro... [1]: https://www.smh.com.au/business/wilson-security-implicated-as-panama-papers-exposes-australian-tax-haven-benefactors-20160404-gny8g3.html https://www.smh.com.au/business/wilson-security-implicated-a... [2]: https://indaily.com.au/news/business/2016/04/05/sa-power-networks-caught-up-in-panama-saga/ https://indaily.com.au/news/business/2016/04/05/sa-power-net... [3]: https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power-networks-owner-li-kashing-named-in-global-leak-of-tax-of-dealings-of-rich-and-famous/news-story/23f55933d6ac6bc6e3c08c7c3026779b https://www.adelaidenow.com.au/news/south-australia/sa-power...

e67f70028a46fba 5y ago

They aren’t complacent. They are harassed, beaten and arrested if they object. Absolutely disgusting what the government there is doing to our Australian brothers and sisters. And of course no media coverage to speak of in the states.

willbw 5y ago
Would be interested to see your sources for the occurrence of harassment, beating and arrest.
- chroem- 5y ago
  Here you go dude: https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victoria-covid-update-rubber-bullets-fired-on-second-day-of-construction-protests-which-block-freeway https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/sep/21/victo...
- bobbytit 5y ago
  Every single attempt at protesting against this tyranny has resulted in an overwhelming display of force by the police. If people are even slightly non-compliant when approached they are violently thrown on the ground and sat on.
  - shirro 5y ago
    Not justifying excessive use of violence my the Victorian police. There have been incidents by individuals and must be properly dealt with. If being thrown to the ground and sat on is a bad as it got for illegal protests during a public health stay at home order we still have some way to go before we reach full dystopia. The yanks had 5 people die during their failed insurrection. There were another 20 dead in riots in the same year. They had cops firing on media. The federal government's yearly bipartisan expansion of surveillance powers to catch up with our allies is seriously chilling shit that doesn't get reported in our media or pushed by the usual suspects on Facebook. But it concerns the hell out people in technical and legal areas and the problem will be with us long after emergency health orders are cancelled.

rajup 5y ago

Bought to you by the country where this tweet https://twitter.com/9newssyd/status/1430707532134236163?lang=en https://twitter.com/9newssyd/status/1430707532134236163?lang... is absolutely not satire or an Onion newspiece.

rataata_jr 5y ago
OMG

stephen_g 5y ago

It’s a fairly complex situation. Most people just don’t realise all the encroaching police state laws even exist (I refer to the real ones Federally, not the temporary State-Government health orders that some people have tried to blow out of proportion). We have very little media diversity. The few billionaires who own the few outlets enjoy the continuing tax cuts, random free grants, advertising spend, etc. from the conservative Government, so run what some critics have called a ‘protection racket for the Liberal National Party’. Almost nothing about any of the mass surveillance laws then really gets into the media, and if something is mentioned, it’s mostly presented in light of the Government’s line on it. The times any of this does get into the news is if there is any opposition from the Opposition party (Labor), who theoretically could get the numbers to block laws in the Senate by one vote. If it looks like they might not allow the Government to sweep them through, the Government then does what we call ‘wedging’ the Labor party. This is where they say “Labor wants the terrorists to win” or “Labor is voting in the interests of paedophiles”, and the media amplifies that narrative. Unfortunately it works because nobody knows what the laws are about (even though human rights groups, law groups, civil society groups, often even the Government’s own security legislation review committee have raised serious flaws, tried to get them out in the open but are ignored by the media). The Government also makes a mockery of any due process - sometimes having a public consultation period but ignoring it when basically every submission is negative and it’s clear nobody actually wants the laws (it’s just a box ticking exercise - if people bring it up later, they will seriously claim “but we consulted the public and experts” even though they ignored all of them). Some of these laws they have pushed through both Houses of Parliament in one or two days, with basically no debate. It’s a truly atrocious situation. There is an election coming up, but with most of the media enthusiastically running the protection racket and pushing basically just lies about politics, and only fairly actively politically informed people knowing what’s actually going on (that’s a small proportion of the population - the conservative party relies on that a lot), things may not improve.

rstuart4133 5y ago
I don't think it's that complex. I always thought it was inevitable that once everything we did happened via a computer, gathering it all together would be an irresistible attraction to man+dog. It was always going to accelerate, and it was always going to go into overshoot. And while it's painted in forum's like this as all negative, the reality is it's not. In fact there have been some pretty big positives. Crime levels have been dropping, while prosecutions have gone up. Criminologists have put that down to better surveillance. Cameras everywhere have meant the odds of getting caught for a given offense have gone up, so more people have been getting caught on their first offence. Amusingly, it's just just the criminals who have been on the receiving end of this - it's the law enforcers too. They used to be able to hide their overreaches behind the solidarity of the blue line. Now misbehaviour is very likely caught on a camera that's not behind the line, and the results have been on the world's headlines. I know the naturally privacy conscious feel like this is a personal invasion, I feel like that too on occasions. Their problem is that to date it's most likely been a net positive. Open societies with less criminality and corruption do better, and that seems to have been the net result so far. While like you I doubt many people have analysed in these terms, what they have done is evaluated how life is now vs before, and it seems OK. In simple terms, we can have more shiny things. Therefore the simply don't care some privacy guru seems a privacy apocalypse around the corner. So far the reverse has been true, and wot do these supposed experts know anyway? Still, I feel decidedly uncomfortable with the Assistance and Access bill, and its friends. My problem is not that they allow enough information to be mined - it's that they don't allow enough. Specifically, while they allow the government agencies to gather information on its citizens, the bills go out of their way to ensure the citizens have no idea how much their government is spying on them, or who is being spied upon, or why, or at whose behest. Without a little sunlight to sterilise things, it's inevitable malfeasance will grow in the dark. We already have numerous examples of petty privacy theft - police spying on their ex's, taxi's chasing credit card owners and the like. It's just a question of time before one politician plunders another's emails and polling data, or one of these systems gets hacked and mined for identity data for years before anybody becomes the wiser. The sad bit is, it is only after they have blatant examples staring them in the face that voters will conclude this overreach has downsides too. So we will have to suffer some real pain before there is a correction. The good news is the public education has already started. The Huawei bans are an example of that. It was only after Huawei won the contract to run the Danish telephone system, and later the Danish discovered their private data leaking across the world that politicians and intelligence agencies woke up to the fact the same data gathering capabilities they were exploiting could also be used against them. They reacted by banning Huawei. One day they will figure out that isn't going to fix the problem. We've since learnt Juniper was hacked for years, apparently by the Chinese who could watch all data flowing through their gear. And that's just the foreign players. In Russia we have private criminal gangs gathering data on a scale well beyond their Law Enforcement Agencies, and using it to shake down institutions like banks. The only cure I can see for this is a transparency on a scale we haven't seen to date. We have to put the days of blindly trusting government bureaucratic caesars to determine what data is collected, who can see it and what it is used for behind us. That information is too dangerous to be kept in the dark - it must be open to all citizens to inspect.

gfodor 5y ago

Once enough force has been deployed, oppression and complacency look similar from the outside.

OneLeggedCat 5y ago

"Well, if the cops are your threat actor, then don't use biometrics! Instead, just sit in jail..." - Troy Hunt, notable Australian Security dude

hresvelgr 5y ago

To anyone not from Australia or not across this, currently federal law enforcement can hack online accounts, remove, add, or modify data. They still need a warrant but can hack accounts in advance of a warrant, provided they have "reasonable suspicion" that the person they are hacking is committing a crime. There is also no recourse if the warrant is denied and they have already hacked the accounts of the person in suspicion. Having read The Gulag Archipelago, I am worried what will become of Australia in coming decades. While I am in opposition to how the current government operates, they're only part of the problem because the Identify and Disrupt bill flew through the senate in a day with support from both major parties. Not even taking into account that the suggested amendments to the bill to remove the broad clauses were ignored and the bill was passed anyway.

jmnicolas 5y ago
> Having read The Gulag Archipelago, I am worried what will become of Australia in coming decades. You might be interested in reading "Psychopathology of totalitarianism" by Ariane Bilheran. While she's French I think it applies to most of the western countries. It's 3 articles, so shorter than a book, maybe 30 min read in total : https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-totalitarianism-1-3-ariane-bilheran https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-total... https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-totalitarianism-2-3-ariane-bilheran https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-total... https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-totalitarianism-3-3-ariane-bilheran https://www.arianebilheran.com/post/psychopathology-of-total...
stephen_g 5y ago
Be careful - they’ve redefined ‘warrant’. For some of the hacking, they no longer need a warrant from a judge, but can get a “warrant” from the Administrative Appeals Tribunal (a body which concerns have been raised about it having been fairly heavily stacked with failed Liberal party candidates, Liberal party ex-staffers, etc. with no legal training or experience). There is even some provision for being able to declare it’s an emergency and just getting an internal “emergency authorisation”. So a lot of it has become (by law) actually warrantless.

grecy 5y ago

I've just returned to Australia after 15 years living all around the world, and I find it all fascinating and I have a bit of perspective on this. The Australian media have a very strong influence on people's lives - they daily create some uproar or other that people get addicted to, wound up about, and then forget. Two weeks ago it was the nuclear sub deal with USA (and dropping France), then it was some state leader resigning, then it was how Covid was badly handled, then it was... You get the idea. Anyway, what the media doesn't do is report on things the government doesn't want them to, like all the new surveillance laws being passed. Or when they do, it's very much labelled as "in your best interest" and "think of the children" and all that. Even if there is a 10 second mention of how this might be stepping on our privacy, there are quickly a line of experts saying that is not the case and that is clearly wrong. I watched a random segment about people protesting covid restrictions and they dropped the nugget "using encrypted communication apps on their phone to coordinate". My Dad immediately jumped to the conclusion that encrypted communications the police can't read is obviously a bad thing. So the Australian media works hand-in-hand with the government to keep everyone distracted, and to paint a very one-sided picture. It was fascinating to watch the whole "Facebook and Google must pay Rupert Murdoch money every time anyone posts a link to one of his news sites" play out from abroad, then come here and see what Australians know about it. The Australian law literally says Google and FB have to give money to Rupert Murdoch, but Australians think it's about getting FB and Google to pay their fair share of taxes. I've talked to dozens of people who say things like "That money will help build schools and hospitals, Facebook can certainly afford it." (which is utterly untrue) I find the majority here are severely misinformed, because the media inside the country is very controlled (And of course Australian don't know that, and get offended if I try to point that out or discuss it)

clouddrover 5y ago
> My Dad immediately jumped to the conclusion that encrypted communications the police can't read is obviously a bad thing. Then I think the problem here is your dad, not the media. Your dad's lack of clear thinking or otherwise is his responsibility. You can't run around in square circles claiming that it's all the media's fault for your dad's supposed wrongthink. There are two possibilities: 1. Your dad is a dumb, unsophisticated, unthinking lump who has no ideas of his own and who is easy for the evil Media to manipulate. 2. This is his genuine opinion. Either way, he gets to take responsibility for himself. And you get to respect him enough to engage with his point of view rather than invoking The Media as a pantomime villain.

kongin 5y ago

Covid, like 9/11 is a Trojan horse being used to turn seemingly sane people into fanatics who will support any measure to defeat the enemy. Watching people I used to respect become hateful shells of their former selves has been extremely unpleasant.

AndrewBissell 5y ago
If you thought "Terror" was an amorphous, undefeatable enemy on which to wage war, wait until you get a load of the War on the Virus.
quenix 5y ago
Can you give an example? “Sane people” who used to believe what and now believe what? Who or what is their enemy in this covid scenario? In which way are they hateful?

version_five 5y ago

Canada's only been marginally better. There's evidently a latent authoritarianism in the Anglosphere that has been activated by covid. The weird thing is that it literally seems to be in inverse proposition to how bad the epidemic actually is in a place. Australia, almost no cases, makes the GDR look like a libertarian paradise. US, way more heavily affected, mostly already moved on. And its certainly not causal. The Australian repression of its citizens had all been reactionary, its not like it's actually changed the net outcome.

AlexandrB 5y ago
Do you realize that if you reverse cause and effect in your statements it might show that more draconian vaccination policies are keeping these countries from being more heavily affected by COVID? I.e. isn't it just a valid to say that: "US, way more heavily affected because it mostly already moved on". In Canada it's certainly true that the major province with the most lax policies and the lowest vaccination rates - Alberta - is seeing the most COVID infections and deaths.

afarviral 5y ago

I live in NZ and feel that commentors of our govts approach overstate the level of authoritarianism we're experiencing. Its not universal but it feels more like the majority of people recognize that lockdowns and other restrictions are for the greater good. If you are arrested you are not going to be "disapeared", you will be processed like anyone else breaking a law. While we might collectively trust the current elected govt, I dont automatically trust that a future govt won't abuse new laws hastily written to lawfully restrict peope though. Anyway, mostly just came here to say how comical it seems when we're compared with genuine dictatoriships ruled by autocrats where you can simply be dissapeared if you step out of line. We're far from that and its just media bating. There's a conflict between being able to protest by gathering and spreading covid... Agree in the long term laws restricting congregating need to be monitored and disestablished. Its no mystery that kiwis feel part of a team when the current govt has done pretty well with its propaganda, but Its the approach Id have taken too.

hulahoof 5y ago
At least in Australia and for myself personally, I am not worried about how we are being treated _now_, I am worried about the powers that have the capacity to be abused in the future without a legal standing for opposition.
- CTDOCodebases 5y ago
  Some of the laws we have in Australia are quite crazy. They are getting abused now or have been implemented with such little judicial oversight that there is no need to abuse them.
- jay_kyburz 5y ago
  I feel the need to point out that you are probably not concerned about your treatment now because you have no power and are of no consequence. If you were a senior public servant and had uncovered some wrong doing in your, or any other department, you would care. If you were a journalist and writing a story that could embarrass somebody with power, you would care. If you were in the military and a witness war crimes, you would care. Even if you were a lawyer working to represent somebody, anybody with any power, you would care. People are being "disappeared" and legal proceedings conducted in secret. We found out about Witness K. What haven't we heard about?

deleted 5y ago

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hulahoof 5y ago

The problem is that it is very easy to have a decent life here in Australia. We have never had to feel the full force of the repercussions of our voting or policies and as such there is an apathy towards the direction of government policies, at least within my age group - "I don't care they can have my meme's" or some variation of "I have nothing to hide" is the most common attitude. Unfortunately, by the time the effects are felt by the vast majority of the population it will be too late - indeed with the recent Identify and Disrupt legislation, it would be completely legal for the government to take over the accounts of the leaders for any meaningful protests or awareness groups and use that trust to break the groups from the inside, or at the least crush momentum as it appears. If anyone has any useful advice or tips to raise awareness please let me know.

cheesecake_luvr 5y ago
If you have good, progressive ideas and have time and energy, run for parliament. If Hanson, Katter, Christensen and all the other useless junk can get in, you have a chance. We do need a real progressive alternative in politics. Greens are good, but we need more.
- throwawaythekey 5y ago
  > Hanson, Katter, Christensen and all the other useless junk Are further on the freedom spectrum than the typical liberal or labour party member. In cases like these they are allies! It's important to realize that a large number of Australians will never vote for the greens or other progressives (for both fair and unfair reasons). We can work together on issues we agree on.
- prawn 5y ago
  Easier to run on fear of simple things that people understand as being a more immediate threat, unfortunately.
- incompatible 5y ago
  If people are voting for the likes of Hanson, Katter, and Christensen over the other candidates, it's unlikely that a scientist or engineer would have much chance. You'd be standing either as an independent or Greens candidate.

aazaa 5y ago

> The growing surveillance powers in Australia have been in the spotlight recently following the passage of the Identify and Disrupt bill last month. This handed “extraordinary” new powers to the Australian Federal Police and the Australian Criminal Intelligence Commission, allowing them to access three new warrants to access the computers and networks of those suspected of conducting criminal activity, “disrupt” their data and take over their accounts covertly. By the time complacency ends, it will be too late.

bobbytit 5y ago
Australia is a fake democracy so our citizens are powerless to do anything about it. Our politicians are chosen by corrupt ethnic branch stackers. The globalists have succeeded in dividing and conquering Australia through the trojan horse of multiculturalism.
- brystarg 5y ago
  as a non-white Australian immigrant, what is this trojan horse of multiculturalism you are talking about?
  - TheSpiceIsLife 5y ago
    I’m not making a statement about my thoughts on the matter at all. There’s a Wikipedia article might be a good place to start if too haven’t read any criticism of multiculturalism: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_multiculturalism https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_multiculturalis...

BloominOnion 5y ago

I'm becoming more and more despondent by the day here. I'll preface this with, I chose to be vaccinated - I believe the science, however... I watch people allow the Government and Corporations infringe on peoples body autonomy through mandatory vaccination. If you don't received a vaccine by a certain date - you'll lose your right to work in essential industries (it's a lot broader than just aged care or health care). If you protest(ed) this, you're labelled selfish, an anti-vaxxer or conspiracy theorist. You're pepper sprayed or shot with rubber bullets - All enabled through health mandates - designed to protect your health (last I checked pepper spray will cause coughing and potential aerosol transmission). We officially have the most locked down state in the world yet we have a higher vaccination rate than North America. While our fully vaxxed rates lag behind the EU, our first dose coverage is marginally greater with an assumption that the fully vaxxed rate will catch up and potentially surpass. We have minimal deaths, but at a great cost to our freedom. When we do get our 'freedom' it'll be with surveillance and vaccine passports. Those who have decided not to be coerced into having a vaccine will not be allowed to participate in the economy and society at large. I fear this has set a precedent in this Country and we will see this occur again and again.

masterof0 5y ago
You have the right to not get the vaccine, but you do not have the right to put other people at risk. Private companies can and will employ/fire anyone for any reason. That's one of our freedoms (in the US), the freedom of not having to work with as**oles that want to put others at risk. True freedom if you ask me.
- 87er43 5y ago
  True freedom is getting fired for hesitation over experimental medicine. People with hesitation are assholes who want to put others at risk. It's so clear now.
  - masterof0 5y ago
    It seems that is not experimental anymore, https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-first-covid-19-vaccine https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-appr....

eyeball 5y ago

Governments around the world are salivating at replicating the success of the Australia power grab.

taitems 5y ago

Cries of "Tyranny!" and "Give me liberty or give me death" are imported concepts that don't resonate quite as well here in Australia. The pearl clutching "Save Australia" protests were good for a chuckle[1], but are also accompanied by people advocating we rise up and murder our police[2]? When Florida has 50x the per capita death rate than that of Australia, it's pretty clear that the US chose liberty AND death[3]. Lockdown is hard, police have overstepped here and there -- but my family is safe and healthy, and my parents are alive. [1] https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/australians-react-with-extreme-sarcasm-to-new-york-protest-to-save-australia/news-story/48e4419fc9c776c47502efa29a8eb3f6 https://www.news.com.au/world/coronavirus/global/australians... [2] https://youtu.be/FUKqliBYIvM https://youtu.be/FUKqliBYIvM [3] https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/florida-s-per-capita-covid-death-rate-is-50x-australia-s-122339397942?cid=sm_npd_ms_tw_ma https://www.msnbc.com/all-in/watch/florida-s-per-capita-covi...

rajup 5y ago
No thread on surveillance and privacy is complete without this clichéd quote, might as well be me: "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." - Ben Franklin
- elevenoh 5y ago
  Great quote.
masterof0 5y ago
The fact Australians can't leave or enter their own country, is pretty insane, even China (social score China) allows (with quarantine) their citizens to leave or enter the country. Australians let this happen to themselves, and now are screwed forever, sad to see.
ryandrake 5y ago
The words “tyranny” and “authoritarian” have become so overused since 2020 it’s almost comical. All over the English speaking world, not just Australia. Every little thing an authority does that someone doesn’t like is now called tyranny. Masks are tyranny. Vaccines are tyranny. Kicking a jerk out of your store is tyranny. The word has been watered down and exaggerated to the point of meaninglessness. After the boy cries wolf too often, if some kind of tyranny actually does happen, there won’t even be a strong word to describe it anymore.

Tomis02 5y ago

Australian soldiers committing war crimes in Afghanistan? Nobody bats an eyelid. Can't go to Kmart because the government tries to fight the pandemic? Riots in the streets. And you're surprised there's complacency to digital surveillance, when people are more outraged by slight personal discomfort than by murder. It's not even criticism, just an observation. People are very comfortable in their bubble and do not care about anything on the outside; you only get a reaction when the comfort bubble is disturbed.

0xy 5y ago
Boiling the current lockdown regime to "can't shop in stores" is needlessly dismissive and reductionist. The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. I think it's fair to say that a country should be able to control inbound immigration to some extent. But preventing outbound immigration to foreign citizens is despicable. I know dozens of foreign citizens who have been stuck in Australia because they cannot leave without a permit, that isn't guaranteed even for compelling reasons. Numerous valid permits are being denied. That's one element. Then there's blatant police state policies and abuses such as a curfew with absolutely zero health evidence backing, police throwing unarmed people to the ground unprovoked into a pool of their blood and refusing medical attention for them [1], pepper spraying elderly people for peacefully protesting and more. [1] https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-cop-throwing-man-headfirst-into-the-ground-in-melbourne/news-story/a9b73be96d8ab5615f186db867de2262 https://www.news.com.au/national/victoria/video-emerges-of-c...
- ceejayoz 5y ago
  > The current policy in Australia is that foreign citizens are forbidden from leaving the country. This violates numerous international agreements on the freedom of movement for citizens, including ones Australia is signatory to. The only other countries preventing exit of foreign citizens are names like North Korea, China and others. Only if you're a permanent resident of Australia. https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia https://covid19.homeaffairs.gov.au/leaving-australia > If you are an Australian citizen or a permanent resident you cannot leave Australia due to COVID-19 restrictions unless you have an exemption. > Due to the current COVID-19 situation in Australia, including state and territory border restrictions, business closures and social distancing requirements, international visitors are encouraged to return home when possible to do so.

miles 5y ago

> “Australian police show up on the doorstep with screenshots of social media posts. You see where this is going now?” Source and video: https://twitter.com/crypto_bitlord7/status/1447201259782504449 https://twitter.com/crypto_bitlord7/status/14472012597825044...

Gustomaximus 5y ago

1) I think a self balancing counter mechanism to improve this (if surveillance efforts continues) is make a rule people have to be informed they were under surveillance or gov hacked 5 years after the fact. With explanation. This time length shouldn't compromise most investigations. It would raise awareness to over reach, so if a small handful get this it's probably well focused but if ~5% of the country start getting letters, people realise the overreach, it will become discussed and create push back politically. Shining light on things is often the best solution to government issues. 2) Secondly, I'm seeing strange commentary on this thread and other locations a heap about Australian repression and tyranny type comments. And while there are privacy issues and there has been police overreach in the protests/quarrantine, comments seem way off the mark. I'm not sure if it bots/paid players trying to drive agenda or really skewed views. Some of the language is very properganda like and I've seen many posts on other platforms showing things out date or context clearly aimed to drive emotion. So I'd say fact check and consider context before getting too worked up about Australian issues of late. It's still a great country and not the run for the hills situation some people seem to be pushing.

Guthur 5y ago

I don't think it's particularly unique to Australia. I've seen the same thing happening in the UK as well. I'm currently residing in Australia and it's the same conversation as the UK, no one takes liberty seriously. The inherent trust that the it only affects people that have "done something wrong", of course that's a very nebulous concept. The US seems to be last place where a significant portion of the population value their liberty and where the worm tongue promises of the state are taken with a healthy bucket of sodium.

Sophistifunk 5y ago

As you will see hints of here, and in full effect if you ever stray into the strayan parts of reddit, most of my fellow citizens at best simply give no fucks, and at worst are raving statists under the impression they're with the screws rather than the inmates. To most Australians, "liberty" is a silly concept for yanks, much like halloween and black friday sales.

Voltage 5y ago

As an Australian, is the best approach to encrypt all my storage and communications? Is that even possible when the potential threat is the government?

NoImmatureAdHom 5y ago
This is always the best approach. It's not like you need to make it perfect and unbreakable, just annoying enough to get in to relative to the value of doing so.