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"Bloomberg noted that India is currently studying possible locations with adequate land, water, and manpower resources. India reportedly said it would provide f

"Bloomberg noted that India is currently studying possible locations with adequate land, water, and manpower resources. India reportedly said it would provide financial support by fronting half of the capital expenditure needed from 2023, along with tax breaks and other incentives." India is going to put up half of the capex up front w/tax breaks and incentives. India govt. also going to scout out land for Taiwan. TSMC will be in Taiwan, China, Japan, US, and India. https://techhq.com/2021/10/heres-why-a-mega-chip-deal-between-india-and-taiwan-is-a-global-rescue/ https://techhq.com/2021/10/heres-why-a-mega-chip-deal-betwee...

wiz21c 5y ago
So no TSMC in Europe ? Or any equivalent ?
- schleck8 5y ago
  They mentioned wanting to open one in Europe, iirc Saxony is a possible location. Bosch has built one there recently, Global Foundries, Infineon and Xfab have fabs too.
- pelorat 5y ago
  I think an issue is tax breaks. In many European countries (AFAIK) it would be against the law to offer a company a tax break if they would choose to establish operations there. > The total investment in the project is estimated at 800 billion yen ($7 billion), with the Japanese government expected to provide up to half the amount. That definately wouldn't fly in many EU countries.
  - thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
    State aid in EU is limited to 15% of the total value of the investment, but sometimes it is circumvented by offloading certain parts of the investment onto public budgets (e.g. infrastructure, or training programs)
gautamcgoel 5y ago
Wait, China uses TSMC? I'm surprised PRC govt allows that.
- baybal2 5y ago
  > Wait, China uses TSMC? I'm surprised PRC govt allows that. They have any other alternative? China imports more microchips than OIL in trade value. TSMC going black is an instant lights out for their industry.
- yitianjian 5y ago
  China and Taiwan are very very closely economically and culturally linked. The PRC and ROC governments do work together, it's no longer the 1970's.
  - nodata 5y ago
    > it's no longer the 1970's. Oh? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-58854081 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-58854081
    - deaddodo 5y ago
      To be fair, the RoC agrees completely with Xi Jinping. They just disagree on who should run the reunified nation.
      - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
        That’s only their official position and they can’t change it because that’s one of the PRC red lines. They consider Taiwan dropping their claim on the mainland as a change in the status quo and a casus belli. Everyone know the RoC doesn’t aspire to a reunited China anymore.
        deaddodo 5y ago
        So, officially, they agree with Xi Jinping.
maldeh 5y ago
India's first forays into semiconductor fabrication in the 80s and 90s were likewise enthusiastically supported by the government (land, incentives, tax breaks and so on), but were ultimately hamstrung by more fundamental infrastructure issues that couldn't just be magicked away - water shortages and unstable power grids - each of which could grind manufacturing to a halt for months on end and delayed production cycles. (I think there was also a major fire in a leading SC plant that caused delays by years.) If anything these shortcomings could be exacerbated in 2021-22. The government would need a much more comprehensive infrastructural solution this time around.
- beloch 5y ago
  Even so, it's not hard to see why India remains alluring for tech companies. Wages are low and there's a massive number of young workers with more on the way. In these respects, India is, now, what China was a few decades ago. Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains and less encumbered by international politics. If the problems can be solved, the returns will be great.
  - balefrost 5y ago
    Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains Not as the boat flies. To be fair, I know nothing about shipping logistics... but it seems like quite a detour to me.
  - beckman466 5y ago
    > [China is] less encumbered by international politics in what way(s)?
  - thrashh 5y ago
    The clincher is whether it can be solved. Infrastructure is so crucial to every society, every process, and every organization and yet it is also so often not given the attention that it needs. .
  - brigandish 5y ago
    The last time that China's government was instituting economic policies that threatened the trade of the world's premier power (by hoarding silver and holding a monopoly in tea) it was solved by the British government and its agents diversifying tea supply via India and being far more militarily aggressive, which does seem to be mirrored somewhat by recent events. If Facebook et al are truly addictive then I could make the stretch to that and the exportation of opium over foreign borders, but that's more of a worldwide blight.
deleted 5y ago
[deleted]
mensetmanusman 5y ago
Cross our fingers that India is able to pull this off. China got old before it got rich, hopefully India can bridge the income trap.
- kamaal 5y ago
  Same thing. India will be old by the end of this decade, and we are not even as rich as China.
  - iamshs 5y ago
    If you read the original article, Taiwan is not keen on giving India a semiconductor fab, but who cares, a narrative has been built.
- dirtyid 5y ago
  Pursuing high value but low employment industries like IT services for Indian upper cast is why India is so behind PRC. Semiconductor industry is more of the same, but worse. Even less employment or and revenue once famine cycle of semi demand kicks in after every bloc gets their fabs up. India needs cheap dirty manufacturing that employs 100s of millions. But automation, desire for self-sufficiency, and rise of China means countries won't risk concentrating global supply chains in single place like India again. Especially India due to geography. >India can bridge the income trap. India @ 1/5th of PRC economic size would have to sustain ~25% growth just to maintain with China growing at modest 5%. Indian pre-covid single digit growth can't even generate enough jobs to keep up with population growth. Reality is India's demographic divident in her most productive states are going to fizzle in 10-20 years, comparable to PRC. Overpopulated and underdeveloped states skews overall trend to 2050s, but these are provinces with level of hunger, malnourishment, stunted and wasted developement on par with North Korea. These are the human capital comparable to uneducated folks that compromise ~200M stuck in informal economy in PRC because they can't be integrated into modern economy. India is going to have to deal with demographic bomb while much poorer than PRC before there's light at end of tunnel. >China got old before it got rich Middle income trap is a myth, and if it wasn't PRC is upper middle income and steps away from high income of ~$12,500 anyway. Competent countries "trapped" in middle income still typically grew faster than developed economies as well. The question is really can PRC get powerful before it gets old, and all signs indicate to yes.
cromwellian 5y ago
Good way to de-risk the possibility of a CCP invasion of Taiwan destroying world wide chip production.
- sneak 5y ago
  Only leading-edge chip production. There are tons of chips made by other companies.
  - dannyw 5y ago
    Leading edge chips go into the highest margin products.
piokoch 5y ago
Yes, clearly everyone is preparing for the inevitable - one way or the other China will finally get some control over Taiwan. Military-wise China is almost ready to be able to take over Taiwan by force (don't get fooled by the numbers that says that US is still spending more on military - every dollar spent in China can produce three times more military equipment than dollar spent in the US). AUKUS keeps developing its marine forces, however it is very difficult to provide supply chain for large military operation over the Ocean while your enemy can do this using trucks and trains. I don't think China wants military solution, their leaders are very practical people, so, probably, we will face "Hong kong-isation" of Taiwan at some point.
- chunghuaming 5y ago
  > China is almost ready to be able to take over Taiwan by force I keep seeing this argument. Let me explain why Taiwan will be free from China's attack for the next 30-50 years (long enough for Xi JinPing to expire) - US protection. If there's one thing both parties in US agrees on, it's against China. Biden just emphatically committed protection for Taiwan and peace in the south east Asia. There are many US warships sailing up and down Taiwan straits. There are many military deals and cooperations with Taiwan. TSMC is a critical part of the world's electronic supply chain. Taiwan is a critical part of the island chain strategy to contain China, since it acts as an unsinkable carrier against China. - China's military is only starting up. It doesn't even have capability to produce its own jet engines or carriers. Its strength lies in the large # of soldiers, which have to be transported. And its large # of ships, which are mostly coast guard/civilian level, and can be sank relatively easily. China's military is about 3-4 generations behind US, and currently is no match for the 10X power from US and its allies - United democracies. US and its many allies are now coordinating naval exercises in the Region. Japan. Australia. India. UK, France, and Germany now have warships in the region as well. South Korea and Taiwan are now increasing its military defenses. These firepowers are 90% of the world's military right now. - Taiwan as a fortified island. Fortified islands are hard to take, as evident in the modern war histories. There are only a few times in the year that China can safely cross the straits without fearing typhoons or rough sea. And landing only on a few spots. Especially if the island is armed with the latest war technologies from US, and has the missile capability to strike Beijing, or the three gorges dam which will then wipe out millions of Chinese. Taiwan is now producing domestic submarines, long range missiles, and ship missiles. You'll want to remember that Taiwan has very sophisticated electronic capabilities, so the arms it is starting to produce will be very good. - China only gets one shot at attacking. After which, it will get economically sanctioned into oblivion by the world economies. Because otherwise Japan, South Korea, and other island nations near China can be attacked with similar attempts as well. Since China mainly imports most of its resources, and is export focused, it will sank into a deep economic depression filled with local riots. 以前大陆民众被灌输的是“血浓于水”的观念，其实并没有了解李登辉以来台湾的真实变化，等到两岸口岸开放，大家可以自由往来的时候，现实的观感和预期落差很大，自然产生了矛盾。从台湾人的观点来看，大陆的提升对他们产生了威胁，态度发生改变，加上过去三十年来的灌输，对中国大陆的认同感低落和仇视也是什么出乎意料的事。台湾俨然成为美国的战略桥头堡，整个局势到如今无可挽回。

wiz21c 5y ago

So no TSMC in Europe ? Or any equivalent ?

schleck8 5y ago
They mentioned wanting to open one in Europe, iirc Saxony is a possible location. Bosch has built one there recently, Global Foundries, Infineon and Xfab have fabs too.
pelorat 5y ago
I think an issue is tax breaks. In many European countries (AFAIK) it would be against the law to offer a company a tax break if they would choose to establish operations there. > The total investment in the project is estimated at 800 billion yen ($7 billion), with the Japanese government expected to provide up to half the amount. That definately wouldn't fly in many EU countries.
- thow-58d4e8b 5y ago
  State aid in EU is limited to 15% of the total value of the investment, but sometimes it is circumvented by offloading certain parts of the investment onto public budgets (e.g. infrastructure, or training programs)

gautamcgoel 5y ago

Wait, China uses TSMC? I'm surprised PRC govt allows that.

baybal2 5y ago
> Wait, China uses TSMC? I'm surprised PRC govt allows that. They have any other alternative? China imports more microchips than OIL in trade value. TSMC going black is an instant lights out for their industry.
yitianjian 5y ago
China and Taiwan are very very closely economically and culturally linked. The PRC and ROC governments do work together, it's no longer the 1970's.
- nodata 5y ago
  > it's no longer the 1970's. Oh? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-58854081 https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-58854081
  - deaddodo 5y ago
    To be fair, the RoC agrees completely with Xi Jinping. They just disagree on who should run the reunified nation.
    - WastingMyTime89 5y ago
      That’s only their official position and they can’t change it because that’s one of the PRC red lines. They consider Taiwan dropping their claim on the mainland as a change in the status quo and a casus belli. Everyone know the RoC doesn’t aspire to a reunited China anymore.
      - deaddodo 5y ago
        So, officially, they agree with Xi Jinping.

maldeh 5y ago

India's first forays into semiconductor fabrication in the 80s and 90s were likewise enthusiastically supported by the government (land, incentives, tax breaks and so on), but were ultimately hamstrung by more fundamental infrastructure issues that couldn't just be magicked away - water shortages and unstable power grids - each of which could grind manufacturing to a halt for months on end and delayed production cycles. (I think there was also a major fire in a leading SC plant that caused delays by years.) If anything these shortcomings could be exacerbated in 2021-22. The government would need a much more comprehensive infrastructural solution this time around.

beloch 5y ago
Even so, it's not hard to see why India remains alluring for tech companies. Wages are low and there's a massive number of young workers with more on the way. In these respects, India is, now, what China was a few decades ago. Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains and less encumbered by international politics. If the problems can be solved, the returns will be great.
- balefrost 5y ago
  Plus, it's right next door to existing supply chains Not as the boat flies. To be fair, I know nothing about shipping logistics... but it seems like quite a detour to me.
- beckman466 5y ago
  > [China is] less encumbered by international politics in what way(s)?
- thrashh 5y ago
  The clincher is whether it can be solved. Infrastructure is so crucial to every society, every process, and every organization and yet it is also so often not given the attention that it needs. .
- brigandish 5y ago
  The last time that China's government was instituting economic policies that threatened the trade of the world's premier power (by hoarding silver and holding a monopoly in tea) it was solved by the British government and its agents diversifying tea supply via India and being far more militarily aggressive, which does seem to be mirrored somewhat by recent events. If Facebook et al are truly addictive then I could make the stretch to that and the exportation of opium over foreign borders, but that's more of a worldwide blight.

deleted 5y ago

[deleted]

mensetmanusman 5y ago

Cross our fingers that India is able to pull this off. China got old before it got rich, hopefully India can bridge the income trap.

kamaal 5y ago
Same thing. India will be old by the end of this decade, and we are not even as rich as China.
- iamshs 5y ago
  If you read the original article, Taiwan is not keen on giving India a semiconductor fab, but who cares, a narrative has been built.
dirtyid 5y ago
Pursuing high value but low employment industries like IT services for Indian upper cast is why India is so behind PRC. Semiconductor industry is more of the same, but worse. Even less employment or and revenue once famine cycle of semi demand kicks in after every bloc gets their fabs up. India needs cheap dirty manufacturing that employs 100s of millions. But automation, desire for self-sufficiency, and rise of China means countries won't risk concentrating global supply chains in single place like India again. Especially India due to geography. >India can bridge the income trap. India @ 1/5th of PRC economic size would have to sustain ~25% growth just to maintain with China growing at modest 5%. Indian pre-covid single digit growth can't even generate enough jobs to keep up with population growth. Reality is India's demographic divident in her most productive states are going to fizzle in 10-20 years, comparable to PRC. Overpopulated and underdeveloped states skews overall trend to 2050s, but these are provinces with level of hunger, malnourishment, stunted and wasted developement on par with North Korea. These are the human capital comparable to uneducated folks that compromise ~200M stuck in informal economy in PRC because they can't be integrated into modern economy. India is going to have to deal with demographic bomb while much poorer than PRC before there's light at end of tunnel. >China got old before it got rich Middle income trap is a myth, and if it wasn't PRC is upper middle income and steps away from high income of ~$12,500 anyway. Competent countries "trapped" in middle income still typically grew faster than developed economies as well. The question is really can PRC get powerful before it gets old, and all signs indicate to yes.

cromwellian 5y ago

Good way to de-risk the possibility of a CCP invasion of Taiwan destroying world wide chip production.

sneak 5y ago
Only leading-edge chip production. There are tons of chips made by other companies.
- dannyw 5y ago
  Leading edge chips go into the highest margin products.

piokoch 5y ago

Yes, clearly everyone is preparing for the inevitable - one way or the other China will finally get some control over Taiwan. Military-wise China is almost ready to be able to take over Taiwan by force (don't get fooled by the numbers that says that US is still spending more on military - every dollar spent in China can produce three times more military equipment than dollar spent in the US). AUKUS keeps developing its marine forces, however it is very difficult to provide supply chain for large military operation over the Ocean while your enemy can do this using trucks and trains. I don't think China wants military solution, their leaders are very practical people, so, probably, we will face "Hong kong-isation" of Taiwan at some point.

chunghuaming 5y ago
> China is almost ready to be able to take over Taiwan by force I keep seeing this argument. Let me explain why Taiwan will be free from China's attack for the next 30-50 years (long enough for Xi JinPing to expire) - US protection. If there's one thing both parties in US agrees on, it's against China. Biden just emphatically committed protection for Taiwan and peace in the south east Asia. There are many US warships sailing up and down Taiwan straits. There are many military deals and cooperations with Taiwan. TSMC is a critical part of the world's electronic supply chain. Taiwan is a critical part of the island chain strategy to contain China, since it acts as an unsinkable carrier against China. - China's military is only starting up. It doesn't even have capability to produce its own jet engines or carriers. Its strength lies in the large # of soldiers, which have to be transported. And its large # of ships, which are mostly coast guard/civilian level, and can be sank relatively easily. China's military is about 3-4 generations behind US, and currently is no match for the 10X power from US and its allies - United democracies. US and its many allies are now coordinating naval exercises in the Region. Japan. Australia. India. UK, France, and Germany now have warships in the region as well. South Korea and Taiwan are now increasing its military defenses. These firepowers are 90% of the world's military right now. - Taiwan as a fortified island. Fortified islands are hard to take, as evident in the modern war histories. There are only a few times in the year that China can safely cross the straits without fearing typhoons or rough sea. And landing only on a few spots. Especially if the island is armed with the latest war technologies from US, and has the missile capability to strike Beijing, or the three gorges dam which will then wipe out millions of Chinese. Taiwan is now producing domestic submarines, long range missiles, and ship missiles. You'll want to remember that Taiwan has very sophisticated electronic capabilities, so the arms it is starting to produce will be very good. - China only gets one shot at attacking. After which, it will get economically sanctioned into oblivion by the world economies. Because otherwise Japan, South Korea, and other island nations near China can be attacked with similar attempts as well. Since China mainly imports most of its resources, and is export focused, it will sank into a deep economic depression filled with local riots. 以前大陆民众被灌输的是“血浓于水”的观念，其实并没有了解李登辉以来台湾的真实变化，等到两岸口岸开放，大家可以自由往来的时候，现实的观感和预期落差很大，自然产生了矛盾。从台湾人的观点来看，大陆的提升对他们产生了威胁，态度发生改变，加上过去三十年来的灌输，对中国大陆的认同感低落和仇视也是什么出乎意料的事。台湾俨然成为美国的战略桥头堡，整个局势到如今无可挽回。