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Sony to join TSMC on new $7B chip plant in Japan
- tln750 5y ago"Manufacturing consent" has to be the seminal term that defines the age we live in. The dust hasn't even settled on the Afghanistan disaster, and already the propaganda machine is spinning at full speed trying to build the next enemy - China.
- the-dude 5y agoNot an insider : isn't $7bn relatively cheap? Could it be this plant is for image sensors? I couldn't read the article.
- forty 5y agoNo idea for your question, but you should be able to read the archived article here https://archive.is/TM8fk https://archive.is/TM8fk
- kube-system 5y agoThe article mentions: > Sony will also help prepare the factory site. Its aim is the stable procurement of semiconductors for its image sensors. > The company controls half of the world's market share for sensors used in smartphones and cameras, with manufacturing bases in Kumamoto and Nagasaki prefectures. The sensors are manufactured in-house, but the semiconductors that process images are procured from third parties, including TSMC. > Sony CEO Kenichiro Yoshida previously said that the ability to steadily procure semiconductors is important for maintaining Japan's international competitiveness.
- gimmeThaBeet 5y agoI was interested to see it was in Western Japan, and after looking it up in context, it isn't surprising when almost all of Sony's foundries are all over Kyushu. Always interested to understand why things are where they are (e.g. proximity to Korea/China, sheer expense of Tokyo or somewhere like Osaka for a large industrial operation).
- Danieru 5y agoOnce you get out of the major metro areas the rural towns which are alive all have various major factories. Tokyo and Osaka houses headquarters, manufacturing is almost always in some small town. A big benefit is Japan has a flat consistent tax system. Towns and prefectures cannot compete with tax policy or tax cuts. Thus factories are much more diffuse. The large corporations can bring their support networks with them but when recruiting high school graduates a big plus is to be local. Thus a town might have a couple large factories which can consume the high school graduate supply. Occasionally you'll see various R&D centers. Those tend to be within an hour or two from the major metro. Far enough away the companies can build large campuses and employees can buy large houses for their family. For example HAL Labs, the company which makes Kirby games, has an office in Yamanashi. Which made them one of the rare non publisher video game devs who do not rent.
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- zinekeller 5y agoSo, on reading this I imagine that this is purely for "mature" process nodes, and not definitely for cutting-edge nodes, plus the fact that some of the semiconductor infrastructure is already there (for use in image sensors), so 7 billion US dollars might be in the correct ballpark.
- crate_barre 5y agoSounds cheap but they made a couple of billion on the ps4 alone. Sounds like a reasonable investment.
- zinekeller 5y agoSo, on reading this I imagine that this is purely for "mature" process nodes, and not definitely for cutting-edge nodes, plus the fact that some of the semiconductor infrastructure is already there, so 7 billion US dollars might be in the correct ballpark. Well, at least Japanese manufacturers (probably more of automobile suppliers like Denso rather than Sony's mobile division) will have a domestic source.
- simonh 5y agoWikipedia lists about a hundred fabs in Japan already. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat... This might not achieve the very latest cutting edge nodes, but there are diminishing returns for going very far down-node.
- troymc 5y agoThe article says, "Japanese chipmakers had dropped out of the race for large-scale chip development by the 2010s and instead contracted out the production of cutting-edge semiconductors to companies like TSMC." and the new plant "would be TSMC's first chip production operation in Japan".
- simonh 5y agoSure, but the basic infrastructure needed to support fabs is still there.
- zinekeller 5y agoYes, I knew that, but the chip crunch also affected mature nodes, so the capacity for mature nodes is also clearly not enough.
- wavefunction 5y agoSomebody needs to build cutting-edge node fabs given the rhetoric from China in the past few days regarding forced "reunification" with China.
- DOsinga 5y agoThe headline and the first line of the article are not all that much in sync. Joining or considering to join: Taiwan Semiconductor Manufacturing Co., the world's largest contract chipmaker, and Sony Group are considering joint construction of a semiconductor factory in western Japan amid a global chip shortage, Nikkei has learned.
- MichaelZuo 5y agoThanks for pointing it out, it’s just ridiculous how many posters only pretended to have read the article. I don’t usually agree with heavy handed moderation but in this case it would be nice if the title was changed to reflect the first line of the article… and if the submitter was given a warning. The mass political derailing will probably block the actual info from rising to the top but oh well at least we can try.
- renerthr 5y agoArticle in the original language: [0]: https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUC10E680Q1A910C2000000/ https://www.nikkei.com/article/DGXZQOUC10E680Q1A910C2000000/
- encoderer 5y agoSo when Xi invades Taiwan and forces unification, who owns these fabs? Will there be a new tsmc-jp and tsmc-us?
- jrockway 5y agoPossession is nine tenths of the law. (I almost worry about Taiwan; if they are the sole source of iPhone and PC chips, then they will receive a lot of protection from other countries in the event that China invades. If we have TSMC factories in Japan and the US, then people won't care. Good for buying GPUs, bad for democracy.)
- speedybird 5y agoI also worry for Taiwan. If China chose to invade and the first invasion wave were not successfully repelled by the military assets already in the immediate area, other nations might try to intervene but few would be in a position to act immediately. "Defending Taiwan" is a tricky prospect if the PRC already invaded it yesterday; and as you say, possession is nine tenths of the law.
- stefan_ 5y agoI'm not sure what would be left in Taiwan after an invasion but I'm sure it doesn't include the hyper-sensitive latest-node semiconductor factory.
- shadilay 5y agoRumor has it the TSMC fabs are rigged with explosives in case of invasion. The beaches are also lined with pipes to spray fuel and prevent landing troops.
- namelessoracle 5y agoI thought the way the island is set up is that is that it was very difficult to make an initial amphibious push on the island with a few chokepoints that made defending it much easier for Taiwan that one might expect. And if China DID manage to break through one of those points the Island was effectively lost.
- HenryKissinger 5y agoI thought semiconductor factories couldn't work in places with lots of seismic activity.
- systemvoltage 5y agoIntel has multiple fabs in Oregon. They have seismic requirements for buildings and tools.
- alliao 5y agoTaiwan have loads of earthquakes too, people just work harder.
- taf2 5y agoI'm a little bit confused why it has to be so expensive and so hard to produce chips... Is it because of the scale required to sell them at a low enough price to be competitive? If so, is there maybe a market for smaller fabs that only produce small scale batches of specialized chips?
- mensetmanusman 5y agoIt takes on the order of a thousand steps to build them, each of those steps is supported by million dollar equipment, hence the cost.
- akvadrako 5y agoThe machines that can make modern chips are extremely expensive. On one hand they are sensitive enough that shipping them costs millions of dollars since they need to stay in a vacuum. On another hand they need a room-sized laser installed nearby.
- SenHeng 5y agoWhile I don’t disagree, saying that expensive equipment is expensive doesn’t really explain why it’s expensive in the first place. The next two statements are more helpful.
- thedday 5y agoAnd water. They need lots and lots of water. And everything has to be ultra clean and to start that way in creation, shipping and in use.
- sbierwagen 5y agoA new fab would be competing with old fabs that are already amortized/depreciated, and thus have lower capital costs.
- Cyph0n 5y agoA few reasons: 1. Extremely expensive equipment, both directly related to IC fabrication (e.g., lithography) and indirectly related (e.g., air filtration, water processing, stabilization). 2. A large amount of skilled labor onsite to operate and maintain the complex equipment. 3. Constant supply of resources, including power, water, and sand.
- MangoCoffee 5y ago"Bloomberg noted that India is currently studying possible locations with adequate land, water, and manpower resources. India reportedly said it would provide financial support by fronting half of the capital expenditure needed from 2023, along with tax breaks and other incentives." India is going to put up half of the capex up front w/tax breaks and incentives. India govt. also going to scout out land for Taiwan. TSMC will be in Taiwan, China, Japan, US, and India. https://techhq.com/2021/10/heres-why-a-mega-chip-deal-between-india-and-taiwan-is-a-global-rescue/ https://techhq.com/2021/10/heres-why-a-mega-chip-deal-betwee...
- wiz21c 5y agoSo no TSMC in Europe ? Or any equivalent ?
- schleck8 5y agoThey mentioned wanting to open one in Europe, iirc Saxony is a possible location. Bosch has built one there recently, Global Foundries, Infineon and Xfab have fabs too.
- pelorat 5y agoI think an issue is tax breaks. In many European countries (AFAIK) it would be against the law to offer a company a tax break if they would choose to establish operations there. > The total investment in the project is estimated at 800 billion yen ($7 billion), with the Japanese government expected to provide up to half the amount. That definately wouldn't fly in many EU countries.
- thow-58d4e8b 5y agoState aid in EU is limited to 15% of the total value of the investment, but sometimes it is circumvented by offloading certain parts of the investment onto public budgets (e.g. infrastructure, or training programs)
- gautamcgoel 5y agoWait, China uses TSMC? I'm surprised PRC govt allows that.
- ChuckMcM 5y agoLet me know when they actually break ground and start building one :-). I fully support TSMC's efforts to diversify the jurisdictions that have semi-conductor fabs though. That is a huge win for them and makes the Chinese mainland threat to assimilate Taiwan less? More fab capacity is a win.
- jonplackett 5y agoSo what actually happens to fabs outside of Taiwan if China do take Taiwan and presumably also TSMC the company.
- chaostheory 5y agoGood question, but we'll probably have bigger problems, like a potential hot war, if that happens. How these problems get resolved ie "who wins" is the answer to what happens to TSMC.
- ChuckMcM 5y agoReally good question. I don't know. What I would do if I were leading TSMC is create a wholly owned subsidiary which held all of the non-Chinese assets and headquarter it in a tax neutral country like the Netherlands. Let's call it TSMC International. Then in the event of an assimilation by China, sell all of the assets that TSMC the parent company owns, to TSMC-i for $1 or something. And in fact have the paper work at the TSMC-i headquarters all filled out just waiting for being dated and executed by TSMC-i executives. It is a variation on a poison pill defense.
- i21QMgplhRJs2OL 5y agoSomething like what happened with Arm China. https://www.extremetech.com/computing/326447-arm-china-seizes-ip-relaunches-as-an-independent-company https://www.extremetech.com/computing/326447-arm-china-seize...
- mianos 5y agop.sm this was retracted. The new company is specifically specialising in extensions and add-ons. Or that was what they were told to re-write.
- unixhero 5y agoSony?? This is very promising.