13 ms·

The American Bumblebee Has Vanished from Eight States

445 points by elorant 5y ago

eezurr 5y ago
I am in Vermont and see bumblebees everywhere... am I mixing up a common species with this one?
- moron4hire 5y ago
  Carpenter bees look very similar to bumblebees, but are actually larger, not as hairy, and don't form hives. They binary maters!
  - tclancy 5y ago
    And, contrary to their name, are not good with wood. Plus they attract woodpeckers. Carpenter bees at least make attractive, perfectly round holes. The woodpeckers who follow are not quite as neat.
- oingodoingo 5y ago
  you might be seeing feral bees or carpenter bees, those are the two I commonly hear misidentified as bumblebees
  - 0des 5y ago
    Hello, it appears all of your comments have been shadowbanned. I have vouched for this comment (and all others) so that it can be seen. I'm still somewhat new at the mechanics of HN's voting system, but more info can be seen here: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#shadowbanning https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#shadow...
- spqr0a1 5y ago
  There are dozens of bumblebee species in Vermont, but Bombus impatiens is particularly common. That's much more likely than B. pensylvanicus mentioned in the article.
  - liquidise 5y ago
    Very helpful. I looked up the 2 species and the American Bumblebee[2] is noted as having an increasingly southern habitat, with borders denoting their former range/habitat. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_impatiens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_impatiens [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_pensylvanicus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_pensylvanicus
- omerhj 5y ago
  Here's a list of all the bumblebee species that are or have been present in Vermont: https://val.vtecostudies.org/projects/bumble-bee-atlas/species/ https://val.vtecostudies.org/projects/bumble-bee-atlas/speci...
childintime 5y ago
How about a simple measure: make farmers (and therefore pesticide manufacturers) responsible for the survival of bees on their and nearby properties? The bees would be a sentinel species, just like the coal mine canary, or like fish are used as an early warning system of problems in the water supply.
Cryptonic 5y ago
Glyphosat
- neolefty 5y ago
  That's an herbicide, best not to conflate, if only because people will use it as evidence of ignorance. The article mentions pesticides: > States with the most significant dip in bee numbers have the largest increase in the use of pesticides like neonicotinoids, insecticides, and fungicides, per Live Science.
  - deleted 5y ago
    [deleted]
  - Cryptonic 5y ago
    https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2664.13867 https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111... There are several studies pointing to glyphosphat (this one just an example, use Google). Actually there are so many studies that Europe ends the use in December 2022.
- cratermoon 5y ago
  neonicotinoids
- redprince 5y ago
  It has been implied in the death of honey bees but it appears that the surfactants in common formulations are to be blamed and not the glyphosate itself. https://www.beeculture.com/catch-the-buzz-its-not-the-glyphosate-it-is-the-inert-ingredients/ https://www.beeculture.com/catch-the-buzz-its-not-the-glypho...
jmclnx 5y ago
I am sure many people are saying "great", one bug gone. But bumblebees are rather harmless. As a kid they were everywhere, and a few would land on me. I never got stung by them and I thought they were fun to watch them fly between flowers. Sadly I have not seen one in a very long time. Just another notch on mankind's pole I guess.
- R0b0t1 5y ago
  They are docile and fun to investigate. I'm not sure you should play with them, but they won't go out of their way to harm you.
- jes 5y ago
  I can’t imagine any thoughtful people thinking this is great.
  - newsclues 5y ago
    How many people are thoughtful? Beyond themselves…
  - hetspookjee 5y ago
    I’m amazed at the fact that nearly everyone around me really despises the Eurasian Magpie, the only bird so smart that it is able to recognise itself in the mirror. Yet the myth that they exclusively prey on young birds and rob their nests presses onwards and everyone dislikes them. If they’d dissappear from the land and you’d tell them, most people would be happy, of which quite some I consider thoughtful. Trying to say that even thoughtful people can be extremely shortsighted. Look around you, how many people still visit zoo’s with primates? Or marinas with cretaceans? All these extremely clever animals trapped in a desperately small enclosure yet so many still think it’s fine to visit them and enable this. All in all I think quite some people would, sadly, be happy with the news that a stinging bug is gone.
    - hammock 5y ago
      >the myth that they exclusively prey on young birds and rob their nests Sparrows do this. They are an invasive species and overtake native songbird population. Never seen anyone hate sparrows. Magpies, people do hate them, not sure why but they are a type of "trash bird" near population centers.
animal_spirits 5y ago
The cited article is here: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/09/29/2021-20963/endangered-and-threatened-wildlife-and-plants-90-day-findings-for-five-species https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/09/29/2021-20...
rasengan 5y ago
We think with our weak technologies and chemistries that we can play God. However, it is so far from the truth - in an attempt to create more vegetation we have decreased a critical component needed to help said vegetation grow. Technology should be used carefully when in the environment of the unknown. Trials and observations should be conducted in limited capacity with a long window of study. Only then can we know of the consequences for our actions of disrupting naturally evolved and perfected equilibriums - be it that of the Earth or man’s immune system.
- randomopining 5y ago
  And the complex supply chains to supply these cutting edge industries are so fragile, they would crumble easily when the climate turns chaotic.
- ethbr0 5y ago
  > Technology should be used carefully when in the environment of the unknown. Trials and observations should be conducted in limited capacity with a long window of study A laudable goal. And yet, without the agricultural revolution of the 1960s, we wouldn't have grocery stores today with well-stocked shelves. Cautiousness has its own price.
  - markdown 5y ago
    Have you seen the grocery stores today? I mean really stopped and taken a good hard look at what's on them? Mostly garbage. Garbage. And then you have this: https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/q4aeuc/every_single_night_at_amazon_fresh_thrown_out_5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/q4aeuc/e...
    - californical 5y ago
      It’s totally true. I’ve always liked the advice that you should mostly walk around the perimeter of the store, and only go into the middle part (aisles) when you have some specific need (canned veggies, beans, pasta). It obviously depends a bit on your store’s layout, but I’ve found the advice to be almost universal. The aisles contain all of the junk (an unbelievable amount of junk), and the good fresh ingredients — fruit, veggies, dairy, breads, meats — are around the outside.
randomeat 5y ago
It's ok everyone diversity is our strength. Only a bumble bee supremacist care about bumble bees remaining around. They can make way for other species
- 0des 5y ago
  Can you point out what's being implied here? I want to understand the nuance in this comment, and I get that it is some type of critique, but at the moment what that could be escapes me.
  - Dylan16807 5y ago
    Also, they seem to not understand what the word diversity means?
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    An enormous number of ethnic groups have below-replacement fertility rates. Drawing the lines straight forward on the graphs predicts that diversity will fall over time. This being the truth of the matter, I also can't explain this in any honesty without reference to a certain group of people who are very upset about that fact, oftentimes because their own ethnic group in on the list. If someone is bringing up human ethnic diversity on an article about bumble bees that might be involved. In the US almost every ethnic group has below-replacement fertility, so in the abstract this isn't a racism issue; but it can be interlinked with racist propaganda in practice so you kind of need to be aware of that.
  - yongjik 5y ago
    GP is being grossly off-topic and comparing bumblebees to white people, repeating the trope that "diversity" is a liberal agenda toward extinction of white people.
    - whatshisface 5y ago
      Associating the demographic trend discussion with white people only is a little reductive, because Hispanic fertility rates are below replacement, black fertility rates are about the same, native American fertility rates are almost exactly the same, and Asian American fertility rates are even lower. Apparently this chart thinks that we will all be Native Pacific Islanders in the fullness of time. :O (Obviously, don't let the sarcasm be lost on you, these trends will change as circumstances change.) https://www.statista.com/statistics/226292/us-fertility-rates-by-race-and-ethnicity/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/226292/us-fertility-rate... I have also read about small tribes and languages that are slowly going extinct.
justicezyx 5y ago
I also know another species: American Indian, has vanished from almost all states...
update 5y ago
> Maine, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Vermont, Idaho, North Dakota, Wyoming, and Oregon Are the eight states from the title. Though it seems New York should be included since it says "The bumblebee species have declined by 99 percent in New York." Also noteworthy > In the Midwest and Southeast, population numbers have dropped by more than 50 percent. To nobodies surprise, the culprit is pesticides. Interestingly the west's bumblee population isn't listed as being in trouble.
- StanislavPetrov 5y ago
  Anecdotally I live in New York and have seen plenty of bumblebees this year.
  - pc86 5y ago
    Is this type of comment helpfully, generally? Ancedotes are typically ignores because they don't show the full picture. If we have verifiable evidence of a staggering decline in population of a given species, "yeah well I've seen plenty of 'em!" doesn't seem particularly useful - to the larger discussion, toward any sort of objective "truth," or really... anything.
    - C19is20 5y ago
      As much for the full picture, i come to hn for the anecdotes. So yes, 'useful', to me. And, just to be super-clear, i come for the comments, and rarely the articles.
      - msrenee 5y ago
        So even though you have no way of knowing if the species of bee this person is seeing is the same one in the article, you find the information valuable?
    - t-3 5y ago
      Anecdotes can be useful in aggregate, where they can validate or give reason to question a claim. There is a lot of sloppy science and reporting on environmental subjects like these - look at the stuff about feral cats being a danger to songbirds estimating annual predation levels higher than the regional songbird population.
tptacek 5y ago
Fun fact: one of the pressures put on Bombus bees are honey bees, which are themselves an invasive species.
- asdff 5y ago
  Notably all these states have many apiaries.
speedybird 5y ago
Is it feasible for organic farming techniques to feed 8 billion people? In conversations about the environment like this one, pesticides and fertilizer (runoff particularly) get raked over the coals for causing huge environmental disasters. But in other conversations more focused on social issues, Malthusians get mocked for not anticipating those very same technological developments that have allowed us to feed billions of people.
- Centigonal 5y ago
  Not sure whether organic farming techniques can feed everyone (may be possible), but there's a vast gulf between "completely organic" and "broadly toxic to the surrounding environment." Australia, Spain, the Netherands, and (increasingly) China have had a lot of success using physical exclusion with nets, greenhouses, and high-tunnels. They have their own unique problems (plastic waste, rainwater runoff), but these systems get incredible crop yields without significant synthetic pesticide or herbicide use. I really think highly automated, hydroponic, mostly non-vertical indoor farming is the future of vegetable agriculture, and represents huge potential added value (economic and otherwise) in the coming 100 years. If you're interested in seeing some of these facilities, check out these videos: 1: Australia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fq6PQl7fr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fq6PQl7fr8 2: Netherlands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM8Qz-fzJ6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM8Qz-fzJ6M
- carapace 5y ago
  Short answer, yes. We can feed billions without destroying ecosystems. From the POV of the science of ecology agriculture (from ancient to modern times) is about the dumbest way to interact with Nature. It turns out that, once we understood more about how living systems actually work, we can design ecosystems that improve soil fertility and increase biodiversity and biomass over time while providing dense harvests (comparable to or even greater than modern destructive farming.) Look at Permaculture, "Food forests", Syntropic agriculture, regenerative farming... A good start might be "Treating the Farm as an Ecosystem with Gabe Brown Part 1, The 5 Tenets of Soil Health" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A
gigatexal 5y ago
damnit -- humanity continues to depress me.
abeppu 5y ago
> If the bee is placed under federal protection, farmers or developers who harm the insects could face up to $13,000 in fines each time one is killed, Live Science reports. Note that the article identifies systemic causes (use of neonicotinoids, habitat loss) as causes, and correlational evidence ("States with the most significant dip in bee numbers have the largest increase in the use of pesticides like neonicotinoids, insecticides, and fungicides"), but the enforcement mechanism they mention is centered around individual actors after specific killed insects where it's presumed that attribution is clear. Does this make any kind of sense? 1. Would we know when bees are killed? The evidence that we know how to gather, so far as I can tell, is mostly counting live bees, not finding dead ones. Are there examples of small, highly mobile insects with ESA protection where we're actively seeking out and finding dead individuals? 2. Is it typically possible to attribute bee deaths to single actors? If a bumblebee is found at location X, we might guess that it would have ranged over an area with radius r around that (but we're not sure what its actual territory would have been) which includes N properties, N_d of which have been developed and N_p of which use pesticides, who is responsible? 3. And if the best scientific understanding is about broad practices (habitat destruction, pesticide use, ...) am I correct in my belief that we don't have any real mechanism of holding a class of individuals (e.g. Maine farmers who used neonicotinoids during a given time period) responsible for an impact to a bee population (e.g. it's estimated by experts to decline 5% in a given year) in the absence of a specific pile of dead bees? With this, as with a number of other large issues, I think we need new concepts around group responsibility. We have a concept of class action lawsuits, where a large group identified by a criteria (e.g. people whose data was exposed by Equifax) can be plaintiffs, because individuals meeting that criteria can elect (or not) to be represented in that group. We do _not_ have a concept of a large group of people identified by a criteria (farms using particular pesticides, developers of properties in the urban-wildland interface) being held responsible for harms that proceed from that criteria.
- tinco 5y ago
  In The Netherlands there is an area that is a key part of the lifecycle of a specific bird called the "Grutto". It is not really endangered, but it is at risk, and if The Netherlands did nothing to protect it, then we would be the cause of its extinction. The way we protect it is that all farmers can report a Grutto nest on their land. Then the government sends volunteers to find the nest. If the volunteer finds the nest, the farmer gets 1200 euro. It's a simple scheme but I think it's very effective. It's a significant amount of money, the farmer will be looking out for the nests, and will make sure they don't get caught in their machinery. I'm not entirely sure what the economics would be for bee hives. 1200 euro to put some stakes in the ground and make a small detour with your tractor, sacrificing maybe 10m2 of harvest makes sense. Not treating an entire field with insecticides might not.
Pxtl 5y ago
They also used to be a regular sight here in Ontario... I think I saw one last year. Now the only bees we see around regularly are big ol' carpenter bees. Honey bees and bumble bees that used to be common are now rarely seen around my city.
protomyth 5y ago
"The species has completely vanished from eight states, including Maine, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Vermont, Idaho, North Dakota, Wyoming, and Oregon, Ben Turner reports for Live Science." How exactly is North Dakota the highest honey producing state in the Union? Also, a bit of a dispute of this study https://www.beeculture.com/bumblebee-decline-claim-in-dispute/ https://www.beeculture.com/bumblebee-decline-claim-in-disput...
- bagacrap 5y ago
  bumble bees are not honey bees
rootusrootus 5y ago
Interesting. It hasn't been that long since I've seen a bumblebee. Are there different kinds? I'm in Oregon.
- hinkley 5y ago
  Bombus p. is discussed in this article, which is confusingly called American bumblebee. There are plenty other bumble bees in the PNW and elsewhere. There’s a rock in my yard I can’t move because it has a bumble bee hive under it. Ironically I was moving it to create bumblebee habitat. But it was so heavy I only managed to move it half an inch before the bumbles freaked out.
prirun 5y ago
When I was a kid in the 60's, every yard was full of white clover and bees. Now most everyone around me has beautiful, perfect grass with no weeds and no clover. And no bees.
- silisili 5y ago
  In my experience, it really depends on the neighborhood. Those you grew up in, probably still has all that clover. My 1940s built neighborhood all did when I moved out a few years back. But all these new developments and specifically HOAs of the last couple decades you'd probably be lucky to find a handfull.
  - asdff 5y ago
    Over time the clover was culled even in these neighborhoods. Seen as a weed. Sprayed over. Cut down whenever it bloomed otherwise. I grew up in a neighborhood that used to be dominated with these lawns when my parents grew up, and in my time ours was the last lot left with white clover, specifically because my father would cut the grass in patches to always keep some flowering clover available. No one else in the entire city was doing that. If they weren't spraying and something not green came up in the lawn, it was time to cut the grass for these other people.
decebalus1 5y ago
Unless there's a way to make a case for it to add shareholder value, I'd wager that the American Bumblebee is fucked.
travis_brooks 5y ago
The article says one of the states the bumblebee has vanished from is Oregon, I'm not sure about that. I definitely saw something that looked very bumblebee like in downtown Portland multiple times this past summer. Bees in general are rare downtown, but if you're outside enough you'll see them in parks and along the Willamette river. A few miles out to the suburbs or undeveloped areas and bees (bumble and otherwise) appeared abundant in Oregon the last time I traveled that way (a few months ago).
- orforforof 5y ago
  In the Willamette valley where I live, we had plenty of bumblebees this year, along with the usual honeybees and some wasps. I don't know which particular species of bumblebees. What struck me as unusual this year was during the heat waves the bumblebees seemed to really struggle, with many of them found dead or dying on the ground. Maybe this is an annual occurrence that I've just never noticed before. We like having insects around so keep them provided with water and flowers, but it just seemed like the bumblebees were having a bad year. If anyone knows more about their life cycle I'd be interested to hear.
dunefox 5y ago
General reminder for everyone that insect or bee hotels exist. Hang them in your garden, help insects. I have one on my balcony and roughly three dozen holes have been filled by a kind of wasp (not yellow jackets).
leafygreene 5y ago
I spent three months in the Deschutes National Forest this summer, drought conditions throughout. I watched everyday as honeybees and yellow jackets happily shared a pan of water I'd leave out for them. The third guest was an interloper assassin wasp called the bald-faced hornet (Dolichovespula maculata), and it loved drowning honeybees. If this hornet was around, I'd return to a pan full of dead honeybees. At first I asked myself, "Can honeybees really be such poor swimmers?" Then I noticed the hornet essentially pushing them into the water (shocking them? zapping them, disabiling them?) and later eating them. I don't know if this hornet is an invasive species or if the predator-prey relationship is already known, but a single hornet can wipe out tens of bees a day. A contributor to honeybee collapse? Maybe.

445 points by elorant 5y ago

eezurr 5y ago

I am in Vermont and see bumblebees everywhere... am I mixing up a common species with this one?

moron4hire 5y ago
Carpenter bees look very similar to bumblebees, but are actually larger, not as hairy, and don't form hives. They binary maters!
- tclancy 5y ago
  And, contrary to their name, are not good with wood. Plus they attract woodpeckers. Carpenter bees at least make attractive, perfectly round holes. The woodpeckers who follow are not quite as neat.
oingodoingo 5y ago
you might be seeing feral bees or carpenter bees, those are the two I commonly hear misidentified as bumblebees
- 0des 5y ago
  Hello, it appears all of your comments have been shadowbanned. I have vouched for this comment (and all others) so that it can be seen. I'm still somewhat new at the mechanics of HN's voting system, but more info can be seen here: https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#shadowbanning https://github.com/minimaxir/hacker-news-undocumented#shadow...
spqr0a1 5y ago
There are dozens of bumblebee species in Vermont, but Bombus impatiens is particularly common. That's much more likely than B. pensylvanicus mentioned in the article.
- liquidise 5y ago
  Very helpful. I looked up the 2 species and the American Bumblebee[2] is noted as having an increasingly southern habitat, with borders denoting their former range/habitat. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_impatiens https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_impatiens [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_pensylvanicus https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombus_pensylvanicus
omerhj 5y ago
Here's a list of all the bumblebee species that are or have been present in Vermont: https://val.vtecostudies.org/projects/bumble-bee-atlas/species/ https://val.vtecostudies.org/projects/bumble-bee-atlas/speci...

childintime 5y ago

How about a simple measure: make farmers (and therefore pesticide manufacturers) responsible for the survival of bees on their and nearby properties? The bees would be a sentinel species, just like the coal mine canary, or like fish are used as an early warning system of problems in the water supply.

Cryptonic 5y ago

Glyphosat

neolefty 5y ago
That's an herbicide, best not to conflate, if only because people will use it as evidence of ignorance. The article mentions pesticides: > States with the most significant dip in bee numbers have the largest increase in the use of pesticides like neonicotinoids, insecticides, and fungicides, per Live Science.
- deleted 5y ago
  [deleted]
- Cryptonic 5y ago
  https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/1365-2664.13867 https://besjournals.onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111... There are several studies pointing to glyphosphat (this one just an example, use Google). Actually there are so many studies that Europe ends the use in December 2022.
cratermoon 5y ago
neonicotinoids
redprince 5y ago
It has been implied in the death of honey bees but it appears that the surfactants in common formulations are to be blamed and not the glyphosate itself. https://www.beeculture.com/catch-the-buzz-its-not-the-glyphosate-it-is-the-inert-ingredients/ https://www.beeculture.com/catch-the-buzz-its-not-the-glypho...

jmclnx 5y ago

I am sure many people are saying "great", one bug gone. But bumblebees are rather harmless. As a kid they were everywhere, and a few would land on me. I never got stung by them and I thought they were fun to watch them fly between flowers. Sadly I have not seen one in a very long time. Just another notch on mankind's pole I guess.

R0b0t1 5y ago
They are docile and fun to investigate. I'm not sure you should play with them, but they won't go out of their way to harm you.
jes 5y ago
I can’t imagine any thoughtful people thinking this is great.
- newsclues 5y ago
  How many people are thoughtful? Beyond themselves…
- hetspookjee 5y ago
  I’m amazed at the fact that nearly everyone around me really despises the Eurasian Magpie, the only bird so smart that it is able to recognise itself in the mirror. Yet the myth that they exclusively prey on young birds and rob their nests presses onwards and everyone dislikes them. If they’d dissappear from the land and you’d tell them, most people would be happy, of which quite some I consider thoughtful. Trying to say that even thoughtful people can be extremely shortsighted. Look around you, how many people still visit zoo’s with primates? Or marinas with cretaceans? All these extremely clever animals trapped in a desperately small enclosure yet so many still think it’s fine to visit them and enable this. All in all I think quite some people would, sadly, be happy with the news that a stinging bug is gone.
  - hammock 5y ago
    >the myth that they exclusively prey on young birds and rob their nests Sparrows do this. They are an invasive species and overtake native songbird population. Never seen anyone hate sparrows. Magpies, people do hate them, not sure why but they are a type of "trash bird" near population centers.

animal_spirits 5y ago

The cited article is here: https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/09/29/2021-20963/endangered-and-threatened-wildlife-and-plants-90-day-findings-for-five-species https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2021/09/29/2021-20...

rasengan 5y ago

We think with our weak technologies and chemistries that we can play God. However, it is so far from the truth - in an attempt to create more vegetation we have decreased a critical component needed to help said vegetation grow. Technology should be used carefully when in the environment of the unknown. Trials and observations should be conducted in limited capacity with a long window of study. Only then can we know of the consequences for our actions of disrupting naturally evolved and perfected equilibriums - be it that of the Earth or man’s immune system.

randomopining 5y ago
And the complex supply chains to supply these cutting edge industries are so fragile, they would crumble easily when the climate turns chaotic.
ethbr0 5y ago
> Technology should be used carefully when in the environment of the unknown. Trials and observations should be conducted in limited capacity with a long window of study A laudable goal. And yet, without the agricultural revolution of the 1960s, we wouldn't have grocery stores today with well-stocked shelves. Cautiousness has its own price.
- markdown 5y ago
  Have you seen the grocery stores today? I mean really stopped and taken a good hard look at what's on them? Mostly garbage. Garbage. And then you have this: https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/q4aeuc/every_single_night_at_amazon_fresh_thrown_out_5/ https://www.reddit.com/r/mildlyinfuriating/comments/q4aeuc/e...
  - californical 5y ago
    It’s totally true. I’ve always liked the advice that you should mostly walk around the perimeter of the store, and only go into the middle part (aisles) when you have some specific need (canned veggies, beans, pasta). It obviously depends a bit on your store’s layout, but I’ve found the advice to be almost universal. The aisles contain all of the junk (an unbelievable amount of junk), and the good fresh ingredients — fruit, veggies, dairy, breads, meats — are around the outside.

randomeat 5y ago

It's ok everyone diversity is our strength. Only a bumble bee supremacist care about bumble bees remaining around. They can make way for other species

0des 5y ago
Can you point out what's being implied here? I want to understand the nuance in this comment, and I get that it is some type of critique, but at the moment what that could be escapes me.
- Dylan16807 5y ago
  Also, they seem to not understand what the word diversity means?
- whatshisface 5y ago
  An enormous number of ethnic groups have below-replacement fertility rates. Drawing the lines straight forward on the graphs predicts that diversity will fall over time. This being the truth of the matter, I also can't explain this in any honesty without reference to a certain group of people who are very upset about that fact, oftentimes because their own ethnic group in on the list. If someone is bringing up human ethnic diversity on an article about bumble bees that might be involved. In the US almost every ethnic group has below-replacement fertility, so in the abstract this isn't a racism issue; but it can be interlinked with racist propaganda in practice so you kind of need to be aware of that.
- yongjik 5y ago
  GP is being grossly off-topic and comparing bumblebees to white people, repeating the trope that "diversity" is a liberal agenda toward extinction of white people.
  - whatshisface 5y ago
    Associating the demographic trend discussion with white people only is a little reductive, because Hispanic fertility rates are below replacement, black fertility rates are about the same, native American fertility rates are almost exactly the same, and Asian American fertility rates are even lower. Apparently this chart thinks that we will all be Native Pacific Islanders in the fullness of time. :O (Obviously, don't let the sarcasm be lost on you, these trends will change as circumstances change.) https://www.statista.com/statistics/226292/us-fertility-rates-by-race-and-ethnicity/ https://www.statista.com/statistics/226292/us-fertility-rate... I have also read about small tribes and languages that are slowly going extinct.

justicezyx 5y ago

I also know another species: American Indian, has vanished from almost all states...

update 5y ago

> Maine, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Vermont, Idaho, North Dakota, Wyoming, and Oregon Are the eight states from the title. Though it seems New York should be included since it says "The bumblebee species have declined by 99 percent in New York." Also noteworthy > In the Midwest and Southeast, population numbers have dropped by more than 50 percent. To nobodies surprise, the culprit is pesticides. Interestingly the west's bumblee population isn't listed as being in trouble.

StanislavPetrov 5y ago
Anecdotally I live in New York and have seen plenty of bumblebees this year.
- pc86 5y ago
  Is this type of comment helpfully, generally? Ancedotes are typically ignores because they don't show the full picture. If we have verifiable evidence of a staggering decline in population of a given species, "yeah well I've seen plenty of 'em!" doesn't seem particularly useful - to the larger discussion, toward any sort of objective "truth," or really... anything.
  - C19is20 5y ago
    As much for the full picture, i come to hn for the anecdotes. So yes, 'useful', to me. And, just to be super-clear, i come for the comments, and rarely the articles.
    - msrenee 5y ago
      So even though you have no way of knowing if the species of bee this person is seeing is the same one in the article, you find the information valuable?
  - t-3 5y ago
    Anecdotes can be useful in aggregate, where they can validate or give reason to question a claim. There is a lot of sloppy science and reporting on environmental subjects like these - look at the stuff about feral cats being a danger to songbirds estimating annual predation levels higher than the regional songbird population.

tptacek 5y ago

Fun fact: one of the pressures put on Bombus bees are honey bees, which are themselves an invasive species.

asdff 5y ago
Notably all these states have many apiaries.

speedybird 5y ago

Is it feasible for organic farming techniques to feed 8 billion people? In conversations about the environment like this one, pesticides and fertilizer (runoff particularly) get raked over the coals for causing huge environmental disasters. But in other conversations more focused on social issues, Malthusians get mocked for not anticipating those very same technological developments that have allowed us to feed billions of people.

Centigonal 5y ago
Not sure whether organic farming techniques can feed everyone (may be possible), but there's a vast gulf between "completely organic" and "broadly toxic to the surrounding environment." Australia, Spain, the Netherands, and (increasingly) China have had a lot of success using physical exclusion with nets, greenhouses, and high-tunnels. They have their own unique problems (plastic waste, rainwater runoff), but these systems get incredible crop yields without significant synthetic pesticide or herbicide use. I really think highly automated, hydroponic, mostly non-vertical indoor farming is the future of vegetable agriculture, and represents huge potential added value (economic and otherwise) in the coming 100 years. If you're interested in seeing some of these facilities, check out these videos: 1: Australia https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fq6PQl7fr8 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Fq6PQl7fr8 2: Netherlands https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM8Qz-fzJ6M https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nM8Qz-fzJ6M
carapace 5y ago
Short answer, yes. We can feed billions without destroying ecosystems. From the POV of the science of ecology agriculture (from ancient to modern times) is about the dumbest way to interact with Nature. It turns out that, once we understood more about how living systems actually work, we can design ecosystems that improve soil fertility and increase biodiversity and biomass over time while providing dense harvests (comparable to or even greater than modern destructive farming.) Look at Permaculture, "Food forests", Syntropic agriculture, regenerative farming... A good start might be "Treating the Farm as an Ecosystem with Gabe Brown Part 1, The 5 Tenets of Soil Health" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uUmIdq0D6-A

gigatexal 5y ago

damnit -- humanity continues to depress me.

abeppu 5y ago

> If the bee is placed under federal protection, farmers or developers who harm the insects could face up to $13,000 in fines each time one is killed, Live Science reports. Note that the article identifies systemic causes (use of neonicotinoids, habitat loss) as causes, and correlational evidence ("States with the most significant dip in bee numbers have the largest increase in the use of pesticides like neonicotinoids, insecticides, and fungicides"), but the enforcement mechanism they mention is centered around individual actors after specific killed insects where it's presumed that attribution is clear. Does this make any kind of sense? 1. Would we know when bees are killed? The evidence that we know how to gather, so far as I can tell, is mostly counting live bees, not finding dead ones. Are there examples of small, highly mobile insects with ESA protection where we're actively seeking out and finding dead individuals? 2. Is it typically possible to attribute bee deaths to single actors? If a bumblebee is found at location X, we might guess that it would have ranged over an area with radius r around that (but we're not sure what its actual territory would have been) which includes N properties, N_d of which have been developed and N_p of which use pesticides, who is responsible? 3. And if the best scientific understanding is about broad practices (habitat destruction, pesticide use, ...) am I correct in my belief that we don't have any real mechanism of holding a class of individuals (e.g. Maine farmers who used neonicotinoids during a given time period) responsible for an impact to a bee population (e.g. it's estimated by experts to decline 5% in a given year) in the absence of a specific pile of dead bees? With this, as with a number of other large issues, I think we need new concepts around group responsibility. We have a concept of class action lawsuits, where a large group identified by a criteria (e.g. people whose data was exposed by Equifax) can be plaintiffs, because individuals meeting that criteria can elect (or not) to be represented in that group. We do _not_ have a concept of a large group of people identified by a criteria (farms using particular pesticides, developers of properties in the urban-wildland interface) being held responsible for harms that proceed from that criteria.

tinco 5y ago
In The Netherlands there is an area that is a key part of the lifecycle of a specific bird called the "Grutto". It is not really endangered, but it is at risk, and if The Netherlands did nothing to protect it, then we would be the cause of its extinction. The way we protect it is that all farmers can report a Grutto nest on their land. Then the government sends volunteers to find the nest. If the volunteer finds the nest, the farmer gets 1200 euro. It's a simple scheme but I think it's very effective. It's a significant amount of money, the farmer will be looking out for the nests, and will make sure they don't get caught in their machinery. I'm not entirely sure what the economics would be for bee hives. 1200 euro to put some stakes in the ground and make a small detour with your tractor, sacrificing maybe 10m2 of harvest makes sense. Not treating an entire field with insecticides might not.

Pxtl 5y ago

They also used to be a regular sight here in Ontario... I think I saw one last year. Now the only bees we see around regularly are big ol' carpenter bees. Honey bees and bumble bees that used to be common are now rarely seen around my city.

protomyth 5y ago

"The species has completely vanished from eight states, including Maine, Rhode Island, New Hampshire, Vermont, Idaho, North Dakota, Wyoming, and Oregon, Ben Turner reports for Live Science." How exactly is North Dakota the highest honey producing state in the Union? Also, a bit of a dispute of this study https://www.beeculture.com/bumblebee-decline-claim-in-dispute/ https://www.beeculture.com/bumblebee-decline-claim-in-disput...

bagacrap 5y ago
bumble bees are not honey bees

rootusrootus 5y ago

Interesting. It hasn't been that long since I've seen a bumblebee. Are there different kinds? I'm in Oregon.

hinkley 5y ago
Bombus p. is discussed in this article, which is confusingly called American bumblebee. There are plenty other bumble bees in the PNW and elsewhere. There’s a rock in my yard I can’t move because it has a bumble bee hive under it. Ironically I was moving it to create bumblebee habitat. But it was so heavy I only managed to move it half an inch before the bumbles freaked out.

prirun 5y ago

When I was a kid in the 60's, every yard was full of white clover and bees. Now most everyone around me has beautiful, perfect grass with no weeds and no clover. And no bees.

silisili 5y ago
In my experience, it really depends on the neighborhood. Those you grew up in, probably still has all that clover. My 1940s built neighborhood all did when I moved out a few years back. But all these new developments and specifically HOAs of the last couple decades you'd probably be lucky to find a handfull.
- asdff 5y ago
  Over time the clover was culled even in these neighborhoods. Seen as a weed. Sprayed over. Cut down whenever it bloomed otherwise. I grew up in a neighborhood that used to be dominated with these lawns when my parents grew up, and in my time ours was the last lot left with white clover, specifically because my father would cut the grass in patches to always keep some flowering clover available. No one else in the entire city was doing that. If they weren't spraying and something not green came up in the lawn, it was time to cut the grass for these other people.

decebalus1 5y ago

Unless there's a way to make a case for it to add shareholder value, I'd wager that the American Bumblebee is fucked.

travis_brooks 5y ago

The article says one of the states the bumblebee has vanished from is Oregon, I'm not sure about that. I definitely saw something that looked very bumblebee like in downtown Portland multiple times this past summer. Bees in general are rare downtown, but if you're outside enough you'll see them in parks and along the Willamette river. A few miles out to the suburbs or undeveloped areas and bees (bumble and otherwise) appeared abundant in Oregon the last time I traveled that way (a few months ago).

orforforof 5y ago
In the Willamette valley where I live, we had plenty of bumblebees this year, along with the usual honeybees and some wasps. I don't know which particular species of bumblebees. What struck me as unusual this year was during the heat waves the bumblebees seemed to really struggle, with many of them found dead or dying on the ground. Maybe this is an annual occurrence that I've just never noticed before. We like having insects around so keep them provided with water and flowers, but it just seemed like the bumblebees were having a bad year. If anyone knows more about their life cycle I'd be interested to hear.

dunefox 5y ago

General reminder for everyone that insect or bee hotels exist. Hang them in your garden, help insects. I have one on my balcony and roughly three dozen holes have been filled by a kind of wasp (not yellow jackets).

leafygreene 5y ago

I spent three months in the Deschutes National Forest this summer, drought conditions throughout. I watched everyday as honeybees and yellow jackets happily shared a pan of water I'd leave out for them. The third guest was an interloper assassin wasp called the bald-faced hornet (Dolichovespula maculata), and it loved drowning honeybees. If this hornet was around, I'd return to a pan full of dead honeybees. At first I asked myself, "Can honeybees really be such poor swimmers?" Then I noticed the hornet essentially pushing them into the water (shocking them? zapping them, disabiling them?) and later eating them. I don't know if this hornet is an invasive species or if the predator-prey relationship is already known, but a single hornet can wipe out tens of bees a day. A contributor to honeybee collapse? Maybe.