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I got rid of Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp about 4 years ago. Facebook and Instagram was easy, but people who have WhatsApp really think you’re weird for no

I got rid of Facebook, Instagram, and WhatsApp about 4 years ago. Facebook and Instagram was easy, but people who have WhatsApp really think you’re weird for not having it. Deleting WhatsApp, while annoying for me personally, has resulted in many people I know joining Signal or Telegram — the network effect can be broken by being belligerent. If you don’t want to have a conversation about why you deleted WhatsApp, simply say it’s a moral issue, nobody wants to know.

dotancohen 5y ago
I could have written this comment word for word. People get _offended_ when you tell them that you don't have Whatsapp. But I let them hold that hot coal themselves.
- zionic 5y ago
  This is so strange, no one in my social circle uses WhatsApp or has ever asked me to use it to talk to them. It’s all iMessage, Snapchat, and a growing group of people on Signal.
  - shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
    Understandably, people who don’t use WhatsApp, don’t think it’s weird that other people don’t use WhatsApp. People who do have WhatsApp, probably have it, because most of the people they know have it.
  - emerged 5y ago
    Same here, I’ve never even heard someone I know say the word “WhatsApp” in my life.
  - lucasverra 5y ago
    Usa? Cause what parent described is common in EU + LATAM
  - Flashtoo 5y ago
    I assume you're in the US. In most of Europe Whatsapp is the main communication platform. SMS is dead and Android is more popular than iOS, so no iMessage either.
  - rtkwe 5y ago
    It can depend a lot on where in the world you and your friend group are or are from. It's quite popular with the Indian H1B contractors in my office in the US for example but not too many of my US friends use it. Same story with my fiancé and her lab groups which have a lot of European grad students and post docs, it's quite common there too.
  - emptyfile 5y ago
    I don't even know what iMessage is.
    - Macha 5y ago
      Something something american teenagers bubble colours?
    - egypturnash 5y ago
      Apple's SMS/IM client. Only available on Apple operating systems.
  - hnlmorg 5y ago
    Messaging clients tend to be regional. WhatsApp is massive in Europe. From what I gather WeChat is dominant in mainland China but Hong Kong still used WhatsApp (though I think they might be coming round to Signal?) and the US, who have a higher ratio of Apple users vs the rest of the world, tend to use iMessage a lot more.
    - unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
      Interoperability between these systems should be a public policy goal. I don't have to buy an AT&T phone anymore to call my friends; not sure why I have to buy iOS to chat with them.
      - Vinnl 5y ago
        Then again, I've kinda given up on email privacy since at least half of my emails go to Google's servers anyway. I'm not sure if we can avoid Facebook having my IP address (or whatever future attack vectors are found after the protocol has been standardised) if I message WhatsApp users from my Signal account.
      - hnlmorg 5y ago
        I agree with you but this is a problem that date backs to the 90s (anyone remember Bitlbee, Trillion, Pidgeon, etc?). Unfortunately incompatibility is seen by businesses a feature rather than a flaw -- despite the annoyances it causes for users.
        sbarre 5y ago
        At one point the US Govt did mandate interoperability on AOL Messenger, once it became the dominant platform. So there is precedent for this, but we live in very different times now.
      - scbrg 5y ago
        Interoperability is tricky when one set of apps has end to end encryption as a requirement, and the other set has absence of end to end encryption as a requirement.
  - saberience 5y ago
    In the UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, etc), it's almost impossible to live without WhatsApp since almost every business does customer support using it. Want to get a delivery? You'll be told about it via WhatsApp. Want to order food online? WhatsApp. Want to pick up your laundry? WhatsApp. etc. It's everywhere here and totally dominant. Deciding not to use it would make your life significantly harder.
  - tonylemesmer 5y ago
    I tried to precipiate a shift away from Whatsapp the last time they did a privacy grab a year or two ago. But so many people use it for group messaging. The gravity around Whatsapp is enough to prevent people swapping to Signal in my circles. Now I've got so many messaging apps. I just want one. Only one. (based in the UK)
- pacija 5y ago
  How _dare_ they not having xmpp and matrix accounts while I, the real mensch, selfhost both _servers_. And what's with all the downmods and downright flags lately? I'm trying to be funny here.
  - netizen-936824 5y ago
    No humor allowed. HN is srs bsns
    - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
      Eh, I think it is a good rule personally. At least for reddit-style low-effort one liner humor, not that I haven't been guilty of posting that myself.
    - TeMPOraL 5y ago
      On the contrary. HN loves humor. You just need to put some effort into it (or get lucky with timing).
    - strken 5y ago
      Generally it's no zippy one-liner putdowns, more than no humour. I think the general idea is that if you want to criticise something, you should directly write out an argument against it. In this case the joke wasn't even related to the discussion, since neither Signal[0] nor Telegram are self-hosted anyway. [0] You can sort of self-host Signal, but last time I looked there was no way to change the URL in the client without rebuilding it, and it's not federated, so that's pretty pointless unless you also get all your friends to install your new version too.
      - pacija 5y ago
        Some people are shallower and less humorous than the others, and can't get the reference and joke where others can. I am fine with that, not that I want to be king of HN with best karma of them all. I just like to hang around bright humorous people, not shallow smugs. The discussion was about some people getting offended because some other people don't have whatsapp accounts. I selfhost xmpp (ejabberd) and matrix (synapse) servers for my friends and family. When someone asks - and this happens fairly often - how come I don't have [insert evil big tech IM company here] account, and how can I be contacted, I say I can be contacted by means of open federated protocol like xmpp or matrix, using open source apps like conversations or element, having account on one of many xmpp or matrix servers, including ones that I administer. Most people say 'ok whatever man', but some say tell me more and get to get in touch with me. Because of my knowledge and skill to avoid Evil Greed, and because I am actively working on liberating people from it, I think of myself as a better man than those who argue whether Signal is better than WhatsApp or Viber or whatever. And at the same time I remind myself I am no better than anyone or anything else in the Universe. And I am quite auto-ironic about it. Is this enough lines of explanation?
- toto444 5y ago
  I have (and have always had) a dumb phone so obviously no Whatsapp. I don't really undertstand its appeal. Being part of tens of groups that sends you notifications constantly because someone's posted a picture of their cat but you don't leave not to offend anyone does not sound a cool thing to me. If people need to send me some information they text me. If sending a text is too much for them maybe I did not really need to know what they wanted to send. If I want to communicate with my friends and family I call them like we used to do in the 20th century.
Helmut10001 5y ago
Use mautrix-whatsapp [1] on a home server to bridge Matrix chat to WhatsApp and (optionally) add a dedicated VoIP phone number for WhatApp. Allows you to connect to/chat with WhatApp users using Matrix/Element. [1]: https://github.com/mautrix/whatsapp https://github.com/mautrix/whatsapp
- lucasverra 5y ago
  how to ping you to know a bit more of that experience ?
  - chagaif 5y ago
    I have also been using this for nearly a year now, you can reach me at https://chagai.website https://chagai.website
- nisegami 5y ago
  Not GP commenter, but I suspect you're mistaking a functional issue (not wanting to use Whatsapp's applications) from a moral issue (not wanting to use the Whatsapp platform).
  - Helmut10001 5y ago
    Somewhat you are right - but it is difficult to differentiate between the two: I don't want to use Whatsapp for moral issues, but I also a) don't want to loose connections to people who still use the platform and b) I don't believe in actiely convincing peole of anything. They have to reach these conclusions themselves - until then, I can choose mautrix to stay connected, limiting my interaction with the platform to the bare minimum.
croh 5y ago
Why isnt it possible to delete amazon account permanently ? Amazon still doesn't give option to delete purchase history which is kind of super annoying.
- Traster 5y ago
  I think Amazon is actually a different story to a certain extent. Sure, you can delete your account, but at the end of the day you've transacted with them and they can keep a record of who they've transacted with, right? Personally I think it would be unreasonable for me to demand that a shop I buy from delete the record of who purchased it.
  - malka 5y ago
    > I think it would be unreasonable for me to demand that a shop I buy from delete the record of who purchased it. Why ? for recent transaction, they need to keep it for tax purposes but they have no legal need to keep old records.
    - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
      In some countries, they need to keep it for 10 years for tax and audit reasons. I wouldn't call 10 years "recent transactions". Heck, for most of the online shops, it's more like "forever".
      - Sosh101 5y ago
        Which countries?
    - kelnos 5y ago
      I don't think "need" matters here. They have a record of a transaction, and they want to keep that record. I don't think I have a right to demand that they delete that data. The GDPR/CCPA/etc. likely has different requirements here, and probably requires deletion after they're no longer needed (for tax purposes or whatever). But I personally have financial records going back decades, so I can't fault a company for wanting to do the same thing.
orangepanda 5y ago
> Deleting WhatsApp, while annoying for me personally, has resulted in many people I know joining Signal or Telegram — the network effect can be broken by being belligerent. Network effect is irrelevant for pure messaging services. If someone needs to talk to you, they'll send a pigeon if they have to.
- shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
  Which messaging app do you think most people would join… one with nobody else using it, or one with everyone else using?
- lopis 5y ago
  You underestimate the power of convenience. It doesn't bother me much, but I've lost friends because we couldn't keep in touch anywhere other than facebook and whatsapp. Eventually, anyone can stop needing to talk to you.
  - nobody9999 5y ago
    >You underestimate the power of convenience. It doesn't bother me much, but I've lost friends because we couldn't keep in touch anywhere other than facebook and whatsapp. Eventually, anyone can stop needing to talk to you. Then I guess they weren't very good friends, were they? If they were, they might make an effort, no?
    - kelnos 5y ago
      Perhaps not, but often there's value in maintaining casual friendships.
      - nobody9999 5y ago
        >Perhaps not, but often there's value in maintaining casual friendships. A good point. I can't (and don't pretend to) speak for anyone else, but I want to be around people who want to be around me. And not all of those. Take from that what you will.
red_trumpet 5y ago
I mostly agree with your comment, having deleted WhatsApp myself this spring. However I have a problem with that. > many people I know joining Signal or Telegram — the network effect can be broken by being belligerent Did you not use the same network effect to get people to join Signal/Telegram? While I agree that Signal is morally better (being a non-profit and all), it is still a closed garden, which makes such network effects possible. And this in itself is a moral issue, I think. Personally I would like to use a system like, where everyone can choose his own server. But nobody in my social circle uses it, so I'm stuck with walled gardens...
- shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
  My issue is with Facebook, not with the network effect itself. Happy to use the network effect to get people off Facebook.
- jakecopp 5y ago
  Get them onto Element, it's brilliant! [1]. Matrix is an aggressively open garden - it even bridges to other social networks [2]. [1]: https://element.io/ https://element.io/ [2]: https://matrix.org/bridges/ https://matrix.org/bridges/
  - arnoooooo 5y ago
    I would not call Element brilliant. I have had a hard time getting others to adopt it. Fluffychat (Matrix client as well) is more user-friendly.
- asdff 5y ago
  IRC never went anywhere, you aren't stuck.
jasode 5y ago
>Deleting WhatsApp, [...], has resulted in many people I know joining Signal or Telegram — the network effect can be broken by being belligerent. This practical application of your advice depends on where a particular person sits in their social hierarchy. E.g. an influential person that's a "hub" or "connector" in their social circle can switch from WhatsApp to Signal ... or insist on email only ... or insist on no email and only hardcopy snail mail (Donald Knuth) -- and others will follow their lead or accommodate them. On the other hand, if you're one of the folks at the "spokes" or "edges" of social graphs... being defiant by deleting WhatsApp doesn't accomplish anything because others don't care to switch to reach you. The above difference in social influence happens in Asia countries where many use WhatsApp beyond personal relationships for business to sell items or find work. If the business contacts you depend on for getting income use WhatsApp, you deleting WhatsApp just means you get $0 because they'd rather deal with other vendors who don't force them the hassle of switching to Signal. Power and leverage in social graphs matter.
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >being defiant by deleting WhatsApp doesn't accomplish anything because others don't care to switch to reach you. I disagree. It accomplishes at least one thing -- WhatsApp isn't tracking/recording your messages any more. That's what I would care about.
  - MadWombat 5y ago
    So you prevent them from recording your conversations with friends by having no conversations and no friends.
    - nobody9999 5y ago
      >So you prevent them from recording your conversations with friends by having no conversations and no friends. You're absolutely right. Because there's no such thing as other messaging apps, email, social media platforms, SMS/MMS, telephone, written correspondence or discussion over a beer/coffee/meal. Only WhatsApp exists. Gee, I wish someone would invent some or all of of those things -- I'm so lonely! /s
nicbou 5y ago
In Europe, people just assume that you have it. I often get the first contact from pensions and airbnbs on WhatsApp. I convinced a few people to switch to Telegram, but there are still a few stragglers on WhatsApp and even Facebook Messenger.
- throwaway525142 5y ago
  I believe Telegram is inferior to WhatsApp due to missing default end-to-end encryption.
- raxxorrax 5y ago
  It is sadly very common in western europe, but you can easily live without it too.
- Pawka 5y ago
  I'd say in parts of Europe. E.g. in Slavic regions Telegram is popular. In other regions Signal. Among my circles FB messenger seems to be the most popular.
dmead 5y ago
I don't understand how telegram is less immoral than Facebook.
- shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
  Because it doesn’t collect personal data to sell to advertisers.
  - dmead 5y ago
    Just the Russian government. Like I said...
- fsckboy 5y ago
  Facebook is a monopolist, Telegram is not
waylandsmithers 5y ago
Maybe I'm just old or out of it? I've never used WhatsApp and don't see why I would need any chat apps other than just normal texting on my iPhone.
- mgarciaisaia 5y ago
  It's not that you're old - you simply are not that poor. WhatsApp first value proposition has been to enable cheap ("free") messaging while, at least here in Argentina, SMS would still cost a lot of money. The Android SMS experience is bad, too - or at least it's not a nice one. Add groups, multimedia, audio calls with no long-distance fee, or even video calls (I don't think the phone system offers an alternative, at least here), and all of that being "cross-manufacturer" (we have 92% Android users here, so you still don't want to leave your two iOS friends out) and it's pretty much clear why WhatsApp works best. Signal & Telegram could have make it, too - but WhatsApp was probably first, and they offered support for some feature phones back then when they still were around.
wintermutestwin 5y ago
Is the problem that a lot of non-US mobile providers don't include SMS for free? I'm probably showing my ignorance around SMS and iMessage, but why can't SMS simply use your data allowance? Doesn't iMessage do this?
- mimentum 5y ago
  SMS runs through a different protocol and has different set standards; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS iMessage is a proprietary messaging system
  - wintermutestwin 5y ago
    Any idea why so many providers charge for SMS?
    - kelnos 5y ago
      Simply put, because they can. They may have a monopoly or near-monopoly on SMS service, so they can do what they want. That was the state of affairs in the US until fairly recently; most carriers (in the US at least) offer a pretty standard plan that includes unlimited texting.
xtracto 5y ago
I find Whats App to be the easiest of the 3: Whoever has WhatsApp has a mobile phone. So, it's just a matter of sending them SMS instead of WhatsApp. The odd situation is when contacting companies via WhatsApp, but most companies usually have alternative methods of contact.
wutbrodo 5y ago
> If you don’t want to have a conversation about why you deleted WhatsApp, simply say it’s a moral issue, nobody wants to know. Is this really true? I do a smattering of weird/non-conformist things for moral reasons, and people are always _overly_ interested. IME, if you say "I don't do X for moral reasons" to someone who does X, they take it as a personal attack. It's closely related to the concept of "anticipated reproach". While they may pay lip service to it, most people aren't fundamentally able to understand the concept of moral pluralism/relativism, and won't be satisfied with "I think it's wrong but it's no black mark on you if you don't think it is".
asdff 5y ago
Do you live outside the US? I always hear how popular WhatsApp is on here but honestly I don't know a single person who uses that app in the US. Or any chat platform for that matter. Everyone just texts and calls at least in my younger millenial circle. I guess in other countries they still charge for texts and calls like its 2002 and maybe WhatsApp is more popular there to get around paying for each text message?
- kelnos 5y ago
  I live in the US, and there are 4 or 5 people I talk to via WhatsApp as our primary communications channel. I'm also a member of 2 or 3 group chats that are used occasionally that I get value out of. I managed to move one group chat over to Signal, but the others didn't budge. I also find that WhatsApp is often the go-to for short-term ad-hoc group chats, like for a bunch of people who are on a trip or vacation together.

dotancohen 5y ago

I could have written this comment word for word. People get _offended_ when you tell them that you don't have Whatsapp. But I let them hold that hot coal themselves.

zionic 5y ago
This is so strange, no one in my social circle uses WhatsApp or has ever asked me to use it to talk to them. It’s all iMessage, Snapchat, and a growing group of people on Signal.
- shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
  Understandably, people who don’t use WhatsApp, don’t think it’s weird that other people don’t use WhatsApp. People who do have WhatsApp, probably have it, because most of the people they know have it.
- emerged 5y ago
  Same here, I’ve never even heard someone I know say the word “WhatsApp” in my life.
- lucasverra 5y ago
  Usa? Cause what parent described is common in EU + LATAM
- Flashtoo 5y ago
  I assume you're in the US. In most of Europe Whatsapp is the main communication platform. SMS is dead and Android is more popular than iOS, so no iMessage either.
- rtkwe 5y ago
  It can depend a lot on where in the world you and your friend group are or are from. It's quite popular with the Indian H1B contractors in my office in the US for example but not too many of my US friends use it. Same story with my fiancé and her lab groups which have a lot of European grad students and post docs, it's quite common there too.
- emptyfile 5y ago
  I don't even know what iMessage is.
  - Macha 5y ago
    Something something american teenagers bubble colours?
  - egypturnash 5y ago
    Apple's SMS/IM client. Only available on Apple operating systems.
- hnlmorg 5y ago
  Messaging clients tend to be regional. WhatsApp is massive in Europe. From what I gather WeChat is dominant in mainland China but Hong Kong still used WhatsApp (though I think they might be coming round to Signal?) and the US, who have a higher ratio of Apple users vs the rest of the world, tend to use iMessage a lot more.
  - unyttigfjelltol 5y ago
    Interoperability between these systems should be a public policy goal. I don't have to buy an AT&T phone anymore to call my friends; not sure why I have to buy iOS to chat with them.
    - Vinnl 5y ago
      Then again, I've kinda given up on email privacy since at least half of my emails go to Google's servers anyway. I'm not sure if we can avoid Facebook having my IP address (or whatever future attack vectors are found after the protocol has been standardised) if I message WhatsApp users from my Signal account.
    - hnlmorg 5y ago
      I agree with you but this is a problem that date backs to the 90s (anyone remember Bitlbee, Trillion, Pidgeon, etc?). Unfortunately incompatibility is seen by businesses a feature rather than a flaw -- despite the annoyances it causes for users.
      - sbarre 5y ago
        At one point the US Govt did mandate interoperability on AOL Messenger, once it became the dominant platform. So there is precedent for this, but we live in very different times now.
    - scbrg 5y ago
      Interoperability is tricky when one set of apps has end to end encryption as a requirement, and the other set has absence of end to end encryption as a requirement.
- saberience 5y ago
  In the UAE (Dubai, Abu Dhabi, etc), it's almost impossible to live without WhatsApp since almost every business does customer support using it. Want to get a delivery? You'll be told about it via WhatsApp. Want to order food online? WhatsApp. Want to pick up your laundry? WhatsApp. etc. It's everywhere here and totally dominant. Deciding not to use it would make your life significantly harder.
- tonylemesmer 5y ago
  I tried to precipiate a shift away from Whatsapp the last time they did a privacy grab a year or two ago. But so many people use it for group messaging. The gravity around Whatsapp is enough to prevent people swapping to Signal in my circles. Now I've got so many messaging apps. I just want one. Only one. (based in the UK)
pacija 5y ago
How _dare_ they not having xmpp and matrix accounts while I, the real mensch, selfhost both _servers_. And what's with all the downmods and downright flags lately? I'm trying to be funny here.
- netizen-936824 5y ago
  No humor allowed. HN is srs bsns
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 5y ago
    Eh, I think it is a good rule personally. At least for reddit-style low-effort one liner humor, not that I haven't been guilty of posting that myself.
  - TeMPOraL 5y ago
    On the contrary. HN loves humor. You just need to put some effort into it (or get lucky with timing).
  - strken 5y ago
    Generally it's no zippy one-liner putdowns, more than no humour. I think the general idea is that if you want to criticise something, you should directly write out an argument against it. In this case the joke wasn't even related to the discussion, since neither Signal[0] nor Telegram are self-hosted anyway. [0] You can sort of self-host Signal, but last time I looked there was no way to change the URL in the client without rebuilding it, and it's not federated, so that's pretty pointless unless you also get all your friends to install your new version too.
    - pacija 5y ago
      Some people are shallower and less humorous than the others, and can't get the reference and joke where others can. I am fine with that, not that I want to be king of HN with best karma of them all. I just like to hang around bright humorous people, not shallow smugs. The discussion was about some people getting offended because some other people don't have whatsapp accounts. I selfhost xmpp (ejabberd) and matrix (synapse) servers for my friends and family. When someone asks - and this happens fairly often - how come I don't have [insert evil big tech IM company here] account, and how can I be contacted, I say I can be contacted by means of open federated protocol like xmpp or matrix, using open source apps like conversations or element, having account on one of many xmpp or matrix servers, including ones that I administer. Most people say 'ok whatever man', but some say tell me more and get to get in touch with me. Because of my knowledge and skill to avoid Evil Greed, and because I am actively working on liberating people from it, I think of myself as a better man than those who argue whether Signal is better than WhatsApp or Viber or whatever. And at the same time I remind myself I am no better than anyone or anything else in the Universe. And I am quite auto-ironic about it. Is this enough lines of explanation?
toto444 5y ago
I have (and have always had) a dumb phone so obviously no Whatsapp. I don't really undertstand its appeal. Being part of tens of groups that sends you notifications constantly because someone's posted a picture of their cat but you don't leave not to offend anyone does not sound a cool thing to me. If people need to send me some information they text me. If sending a text is too much for them maybe I did not really need to know what they wanted to send. If I want to communicate with my friends and family I call them like we used to do in the 20th century.

Helmut10001 5y ago

Use mautrix-whatsapp [1] on a home server to bridge Matrix chat to WhatsApp and (optionally) add a dedicated VoIP phone number for WhatApp. Allows you to connect to/chat with WhatApp users using Matrix/Element. [1]: https://github.com/mautrix/whatsapp https://github.com/mautrix/whatsapp

lucasverra 5y ago
how to ping you to know a bit more of that experience ?
- chagaif 5y ago
  I have also been using this for nearly a year now, you can reach me at https://chagai.website https://chagai.website
nisegami 5y ago
Not GP commenter, but I suspect you're mistaking a functional issue (not wanting to use Whatsapp's applications) from a moral issue (not wanting to use the Whatsapp platform).
- Helmut10001 5y ago
  Somewhat you are right - but it is difficult to differentiate between the two: I don't want to use Whatsapp for moral issues, but I also a) don't want to loose connections to people who still use the platform and b) I don't believe in actiely convincing peole of anything. They have to reach these conclusions themselves - until then, I can choose mautrix to stay connected, limiting my interaction with the platform to the bare minimum.

croh 5y ago

Why isnt it possible to delete amazon account permanently ? Amazon still doesn't give option to delete purchase history which is kind of super annoying.

Traster 5y ago
I think Amazon is actually a different story to a certain extent. Sure, you can delete your account, but at the end of the day you've transacted with them and they can keep a record of who they've transacted with, right? Personally I think it would be unreasonable for me to demand that a shop I buy from delete the record of who purchased it.
- malka 5y ago
  > I think it would be unreasonable for me to demand that a shop I buy from delete the record of who purchased it. Why ? for recent transaction, they need to keep it for tax purposes but they have no legal need to keep old records.
  - tut-urut-utut 5y ago
    In some countries, they need to keep it for 10 years for tax and audit reasons. I wouldn't call 10 years "recent transactions". Heck, for most of the online shops, it's more like "forever".
    - Sosh101 5y ago
      Which countries?
  - kelnos 5y ago
    I don't think "need" matters here. They have a record of a transaction, and they want to keep that record. I don't think I have a right to demand that they delete that data. The GDPR/CCPA/etc. likely has different requirements here, and probably requires deletion after they're no longer needed (for tax purposes or whatever). But I personally have financial records going back decades, so I can't fault a company for wanting to do the same thing.

orangepanda 5y ago

> Deleting WhatsApp, while annoying for me personally, has resulted in many people I know joining Signal or Telegram — the network effect can be broken by being belligerent. Network effect is irrelevant for pure messaging services. If someone needs to talk to you, they'll send a pigeon if they have to.

shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
Which messaging app do you think most people would join… one with nobody else using it, or one with everyone else using?
lopis 5y ago
You underestimate the power of convenience. It doesn't bother me much, but I've lost friends because we couldn't keep in touch anywhere other than facebook and whatsapp. Eventually, anyone can stop needing to talk to you.
- nobody9999 5y ago
  >You underestimate the power of convenience. It doesn't bother me much, but I've lost friends because we couldn't keep in touch anywhere other than facebook and whatsapp. Eventually, anyone can stop needing to talk to you. Then I guess they weren't very good friends, were they? If they were, they might make an effort, no?
  - kelnos 5y ago
    Perhaps not, but often there's value in maintaining casual friendships.
    - nobody9999 5y ago
      >Perhaps not, but often there's value in maintaining casual friendships. A good point. I can't (and don't pretend to) speak for anyone else, but I want to be around people who want to be around me. And not all of those. Take from that what you will.

red_trumpet 5y ago

I mostly agree with your comment, having deleted WhatsApp myself this spring. However I have a problem with that. > many people I know joining Signal or Telegram — the network effect can be broken by being belligerent Did you not use the same network effect to get people to join Signal/Telegram? While I agree that Signal is morally better (being a non-profit and all), it is still a closed garden, which makes such network effects possible. And this in itself is a moral issue, I think. Personally I would like to use a system like, where everyone can choose his own server. But nobody in my social circle uses it, so I'm stuck with walled gardens...

shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
My issue is with Facebook, not with the network effect itself. Happy to use the network effect to get people off Facebook.
jakecopp 5y ago
Get them onto Element, it's brilliant! [1]. Matrix is an aggressively open garden - it even bridges to other social networks [2]. [1]: https://element.io/ https://element.io/ [2]: https://matrix.org/bridges/ https://matrix.org/bridges/
- arnoooooo 5y ago
  I would not call Element brilliant. I have had a hard time getting others to adopt it. Fluffychat (Matrix client as well) is more user-friendly.
asdff 5y ago
IRC never went anywhere, you aren't stuck.

jasode 5y ago

>Deleting WhatsApp, [...], has resulted in many people I know joining Signal or Telegram — the network effect can be broken by being belligerent. This practical application of your advice depends on where a particular person sits in their social hierarchy. E.g. an influential person that's a "hub" or "connector" in their social circle can switch from WhatsApp to Signal ... or insist on email only ... or insist on no email and only hardcopy snail mail (Donald Knuth) -- and others will follow their lead or accommodate them. On the other hand, if you're one of the folks at the "spokes" or "edges" of social graphs... being defiant by deleting WhatsApp doesn't accomplish anything because others don't care to switch to reach you. The above difference in social influence happens in Asia countries where many use WhatsApp beyond personal relationships for business to sell items or find work. If the business contacts you depend on for getting income use WhatsApp, you deleting WhatsApp just means you get $0 because they'd rather deal with other vendors who don't force them the hassle of switching to Signal. Power and leverage in social graphs matter.

nobody9999 5y ago
>being defiant by deleting WhatsApp doesn't accomplish anything because others don't care to switch to reach you. I disagree. It accomplishes at least one thing -- WhatsApp isn't tracking/recording your messages any more. That's what I would care about.
- MadWombat 5y ago
  So you prevent them from recording your conversations with friends by having no conversations and no friends.
  - nobody9999 5y ago
    >So you prevent them from recording your conversations with friends by having no conversations and no friends. You're absolutely right. Because there's no such thing as other messaging apps, email, social media platforms, SMS/MMS, telephone, written correspondence or discussion over a beer/coffee/meal. Only WhatsApp exists. Gee, I wish someone would invent some or all of of those things -- I'm so lonely! /s

nicbou 5y ago

In Europe, people just assume that you have it. I often get the first contact from pensions and airbnbs on WhatsApp. I convinced a few people to switch to Telegram, but there are still a few stragglers on WhatsApp and even Facebook Messenger.

throwaway525142 5y ago
I believe Telegram is inferior to WhatsApp due to missing default end-to-end encryption.
raxxorrax 5y ago
It is sadly very common in western europe, but you can easily live without it too.
Pawka 5y ago
I'd say in parts of Europe. E.g. in Slavic regions Telegram is popular. In other regions Signal. Among my circles FB messenger seems to be the most popular.

dmead 5y ago

I don't understand how telegram is less immoral than Facebook.

shadowfaxRodeo 5y ago
Because it doesn’t collect personal data to sell to advertisers.
- dmead 5y ago
  Just the Russian government. Like I said...
fsckboy 5y ago
Facebook is a monopolist, Telegram is not

waylandsmithers 5y ago

Maybe I'm just old or out of it? I've never used WhatsApp and don't see why I would need any chat apps other than just normal texting on my iPhone.

mgarciaisaia 5y ago
It's not that you're old - you simply are not that poor. WhatsApp first value proposition has been to enable cheap ("free") messaging while, at least here in Argentina, SMS would still cost a lot of money. The Android SMS experience is bad, too - or at least it's not a nice one. Add groups, multimedia, audio calls with no long-distance fee, or even video calls (I don't think the phone system offers an alternative, at least here), and all of that being "cross-manufacturer" (we have 92% Android users here, so you still don't want to leave your two iOS friends out) and it's pretty much clear why WhatsApp works best. Signal & Telegram could have make it, too - but WhatsApp was probably first, and they offered support for some feature phones back then when they still were around.

wintermutestwin 5y ago

Is the problem that a lot of non-US mobile providers don't include SMS for free? I'm probably showing my ignorance around SMS and iMessage, but why can't SMS simply use your data allowance? Doesn't iMessage do this?

mimentum 5y ago
SMS runs through a different protocol and has different set standards; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SMS iMessage is a proprietary messaging system
- wintermutestwin 5y ago
  Any idea why so many providers charge for SMS?
  - kelnos 5y ago
    Simply put, because they can. They may have a monopoly or near-monopoly on SMS service, so they can do what they want. That was the state of affairs in the US until fairly recently; most carriers (in the US at least) offer a pretty standard plan that includes unlimited texting.

xtracto 5y ago

I find Whats App to be the easiest of the 3: Whoever has WhatsApp has a mobile phone. So, it's just a matter of sending them SMS instead of WhatsApp. The odd situation is when contacting companies via WhatsApp, but most companies usually have alternative methods of contact.

wutbrodo 5y ago

> If you don’t want to have a conversation about why you deleted WhatsApp, simply say it’s a moral issue, nobody wants to know. Is this really true? I do a smattering of weird/non-conformist things for moral reasons, and people are always _overly_ interested. IME, if you say "I don't do X for moral reasons" to someone who does X, they take it as a personal attack. It's closely related to the concept of "anticipated reproach". While they may pay lip service to it, most people aren't fundamentally able to understand the concept of moral pluralism/relativism, and won't be satisfied with "I think it's wrong but it's no black mark on you if you don't think it is".

asdff 5y ago

Do you live outside the US? I always hear how popular WhatsApp is on here but honestly I don't know a single person who uses that app in the US. Or any chat platform for that matter. Everyone just texts and calls at least in my younger millenial circle. I guess in other countries they still charge for texts and calls like its 2002 and maybe WhatsApp is more popular there to get around paying for each text message?

kelnos 5y ago
I live in the US, and there are 4 or 5 people I talk to via WhatsApp as our primary communications channel. I'm also a member of 2 or 3 group chats that are used occasionally that I get value out of. I managed to move one group chat over to Signal, but the others didn't budge. I also find that WhatsApp is often the go-to for short-term ad-hoc group chats, like for a bunch of people who are on a trip or vacation together.