7 ms·
This is the actual abstract from the actual study. Most comments here seem to be referring to a strawman version of the study. Abstract: > We investigate what
by LeoPanthera 5y ago
This is the actual abstract from the actual study. Most comments here seem to be referring to a strawman version of the study.
Abstract:
> We investigate what data iOS on an iPhone shares with Apple and what data Google Android on a Pixel phone shares with Google. We find that even when minimally configured and the handset is idle both iOS and Google Android share data with Apple/Google on average every 4.5 mins. The phone IMEI, hardware serial number, SIM serial number and IMSI, handset phone number etc are shared with Apple and Google. Both iOS and Google Android transmit telemetry, despite the user explicitly opting out of this. When a SIM is inserted both iOS and Google Android send details to Apple/Google. iOS sends the MAC addresses of nearby devices, e.g. other handsets and the home gateway, to Apple together with their GPS location. Users have no opt out from this and currently there are few, if any, realistic options for preventing this data sharing.
That is the extent of the data sharing unless the user allows more.
- geoduck14 5y ago>iOS sends the MAC addresses of nearby devices, e.g. other handsets and the home gateway, to Apple together with their GPS location. I was not aware that my location was being tracked by other people's iPhones.
- threeseed 5y agoIt isn't. Apple is sending your location and the MAC addresses of other devices your phone sees. It's been doing this for nearly a decade since I believe their acquisition of WifiSlam back in 2013. They use it roughly triangulate a device's position when GPS/Cellular is not available.
- ssss11 5y agoSo someone else’s device, if it can see theirs, is sending their MAC to Apple. That is what they said isn’t it? Edit: he/their
- yuuu 5y agoPhew! What a relief that they're only sending other people's MAC addresses and not my own!
- tyingq 5y agoThe research paper confirms it isn't sending the MAC address, but says it is sending the hardware serial number. I assume Apple has table to lookup up the MAC from the hardware serial number. So there's really no difference, is there?
- nomel 5y agoWhy assume that Apple keeps lookup tables like this for customer identifiable information?
- uoaei 5y agoThe zeroth law of cybersecurity is: If you can imagine it happening, it is safest to assume that it is already happening.
- nomel 5y agoIt’s unfortunate that Apple isn’t more transparent about their data retention times/policies, so imagination wouldn’t be required.
- ignoramous 5y agoOr... a whistleblower.
- croon 5y agoWe know they collect the information. Supposedly because they find it useful. How do you think they're using it?
- awsthro00945 5y agoThe first sentence and the second sentence of your comment contradict each other. If Apple is using iPhones to pair location and MAC addresses of nearby devices, that is indeed "location being tracked by other people's iPhones".
- bigiain 5y agoAnd Apple have clearly decided that’s ok, because that’s how AirTags work. Whether your (and everybody else) iPhone and gps helping tell where my stolen bicycle is, is a good enough benefit to outweigh the privacy trade off is a good question (that Apple never asked me before opting me into their global Bluetooth surveillance platform).
- dpkonofa 5y agoThey do actually ask before doing this. It's a question that you have to answer when you first updated to iOS 14 or that you answer when setting up a new iOS 15 device.
- Shared404 5y agoBut they never asked the non-apple users whose information is being transmitted, unless there's something I missed.
- judge2020 5y agohttps://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ https://www.wired.com/2012/05/google-wifi-fcc-investigation/ They weren't fined whatsoever for the collection of the data. The fine was for stonewalling the investigation. > But, the commission said, Google did not engage in illegal wiretapping because the data was flowing, unencrypted, over open radio waves. At what point does reading unencrypted radio waves on open-use frequencies become an invasion of privacy? It'd be like a restaurant owner requiring people get permission before being able to write down the restaurant's name. If it's possible to passively read it for free, you can't control who views it.
- gizdan 5y agoIf they know my location, and other devices's MAC address, surely it stands to reason that they know those those devices's location?
- onion2k 5y agoThey use it roughly triangulate a device's position when GPS/Cellular is not available. That's the benefit that they expose to the user. What they do with the data as well as that is only known to some people in Apple.
- wodenokoto 5y agoThat’s how “find my” works. Gps connected devices are the gateway in a iOS mesh network. This is how you can triangulate those Apple key rings, that aren’t even connected to the internet.
- eddieroger 5y agoClose - You can know general proximity through other devices, but it won't triangulate. If you own the AirTag, you can find it more specifically based on signal strength, but with "other people's devices" you only get a general location.
- amelius 5y agoBut apparently you can't turn it off.
- madeofpalk 5y agoSource?
- sieabahlpark 5y agoBest to just simply believe that it can be turned off, right?
- TobTobXX 5y agoSaid study: > Users have no opt out from this
- eptcyka 5y agoYou can turn off all of your radios as far as the soft toggle switches in your Settings app allow you to do, but if Apple decides that your radio antennas should still be active and responding to beacons, they will. And the user won't be aware. Not sure if iPhones will do this if you've explicitly disabled bluetooth, but they will send data around even when "turned off". Likewise, to actually disable bluetooth, you have to click on the toggle button in the draw-down settings screen 2 times.
- 5y ago
- CountDrewku 5y agoThis it he entire basis of their airtag system.
- matheusmoreira 5y ago> both iOS and Google Android share data with Apple/Google on average every 4.5 mins > Both iOS and Google Android transmit telemetry > both iOS and Google Android send details to Apple/Google Are there no details on what sort of data these packets contain? It should be possible for users to decrypt and inspect these packets.
- Thorrez 5y ago>Researchers essentially staged a man-in-the-middle attack on the phones, setting up a laptop to serve as a Wi-Fi hotspot while disabling cellular connections on the phones. >Traffic from the phones ran through the laptop, which decrypted logged and analyzed data, then re-encrypted the data and sent it on its way to the destination servers. That's from the article. I haven't read the paper.
- judge2020 5y agoThe paper was posted elsewhere on the thread. See page 2's table: https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf#page=2 https://www.scss.tcd.ie/doug.leith/apple_google.pdf#page=2
- speeder 5y agoSuppose I don't want my router Mac address + GPS location shared with Apple or Google What are my options? Banning guests from my network is enough or I have to physically not allow phones near my wifi?
- yosito 5y agoThis is what I'd like to know. I don't own a wifi router. But suppose I did, is the fact that my router's signal was simply seen by an Apple device within range consent for Apple to track it's location? And does Apple knowing my router's location mean that I've consented to it's use to track others?
- kamray23 5y agoCoat your walls in lead. As long as your device broadcasts network, anyone in range can see it.
- amelius 5y agoBetter yet: coat your iPhone in lead.
- hsbauauvhabzb 5y agoThat won’t fix another users iPhone transmitting your SSID details.
- TobTobXX 5y agoA tad easier would be to set the Network to hidden. Then clients would have to mention the SSID themselves to advertise themselves.
- Thorrez 5y agoAccording to that abstract, only Apple does that, not Google. Full disclosure I work for Google, but not on anything related to this.
- 5y ago
- raxxorrax 5y agoThis paints a desastrous picture for mobile OS. I deactivate wlan and mobile data if I don't explicitely need it because you cannot trust your own device. These closed systems introduced and normalized a lot of very bad behavior for software in general.
- mrjin 5y agoKinda match my perception. Such user data is already of huge business value and too hard to resist for any big companies.