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For those who were keeping track: The virus is just like the flu it's not a problem . The ICUs aren't that overloaded, theres no reason to worry .. -> We sho

by monksy 5y ago

For those who were keeping track: The virus is just like the flu it's not a problem . The ICUs aren't that overloaded, theres no reason to worry .. -> We shouldn't have a lock down that is this strict allow people to make decisions on their own ... -> Restaurants shouldn't be required to be closed for indoor dining .... -> Let people chose to wear the mask or not (Considering the US/CDC's terrible stance on masks that wasn't safe on a society level [The US gov ignored and discouraged stronger masks such as KN95, KF94, FFP2 for civilian usage]) .... -> The vaccine is too new, need more info ..... -> It's not fda approved, can't take it ...... -> My freedoms/won't get it/don't have more info It's not just citiziens that are spouting nonsense about this. It's government officials spouting this. I talked with an liqour board agent about why fining a lady operating a bar with live music during the peak of the pandemic is the correct thing to do. (Executive order banned indoor dining and alcohol consumption in the state) He literally try to discredit me at every step of the way. This was an executive order + strict liqour board rules put down.

dude4you 5y ago
Ok, take the vacc. (I would have taken it if had been offered it before I got corona.) Ok. Then what? What will happen? Corona goes away? Seriously? Corona is here to stay my friend.
- alexpw 5y ago
  You should still get vaccinated. Post-infection immunity is very heterogeneous, with respect to what level of protection you'll have, and how long it will last. You might have great protection for a bit, or you might get reinfected just like the first time, like many have. The combined protection of natural with vaccination will be better than just one or the other. I hope you stay safe.
  - dude4you 5y ago
    an israli paper claimed my immunity is 13 times better now compared to vaccinated people.
    - monksy 5y ago
      What's the paper?
      - pseudo0 5y ago
        I'd guess it's this one: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
      - dude4you 5y ago
        https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
        monksy 5y ago
        It's been recently published and the warning on it is: This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice. It's not something that can be held up as evidence in any direction at the moment.
    - munk-a 5y ago
      The CDC says[1] > Yes, you should be vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19 because: > Research has not yet shown how long you are protected from getting COVID-19 again after you recover from COVID-19. > Vaccination helps protect you even if you’ve already had COVID-19. an Israeli paper[2] (probably the one you're thinking of) also mentions that yes - your immunity from having the disease is better than a vaccine but getting both still provides a much better outcome. Please note that this study is very recent and may be overturned in review. > This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant. So maybe you'll end up super-immune! Congratulations! (now go get vaccinated) 1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html 2. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
- monksy 5y ago
  Take the vaccine (Moderna if you can pick), significantly reduce the health risk of covid on you. Also, helps to dampen the overall rate in the county and reduces the risk new mutations that may create more breakthroughs. If you're complaining about the withdraw of mitigations, that's because people and states have refused to participate in the mitigations as a whole. If they were compliant, we'd be in a situation like Australia or Taiwan. Masks optional, nearly normal (they have restrictive borders), open concerts, and lockdowns only when a couple of cases pop up.
  - dude4you 5y ago
    "and reduces the risk new mutations" likely the opposite is true. It is called evolutionary pressure. I will get vaccinated next year since I move back to China then. They insist and I am okay with it since I get something in return.
    - monksy 5y ago
      > "and reduces the risk new mutations" likely the opposite is true. It is called evolutionary pressure. Chicken and egg problem: You can't have evolutionary pressure without an environment to operate in. Vaccines reduce the space in which they can attempt to successfully mutate.
      - SailingSperm 5y ago
        That environment of evolutionary pressure is exactly what is being created. An environment where strains with higher fitness for immune escape are more able to spread, in a compounding manner. Particularly with leaky vaccines as we're using for c19 that do not prevent contraction with high efficacy. Please read this - even just the 'Prevention' section for a real world example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention or read how antibiotic resistance comes about, which seems to be less contentious / politicly affected... But the same evolutionary mechanism is at work.
    - tunesmith 5y ago
- judahmeek 5y ago
  So is measles, polio, & chickenpox, but those vaccines have still made a huge difference in general quality of life.
- tunesmith 5y ago
  You can walk yourself through the reasons why with simple math, really. Every disease has an estimated R0. The number of people an infected person will infect. You probably have heard of this. Delta, last I checked, has an estimated R0 of between 5 and 9.5. Vaccination levels reduce that. And it's a simple equation. All you need to know is the vaccination rate for your population, and an estimated efficacy rate of the vaccine. And from that, you can figure the new adjusted Rt: rt = r0 * (1 - (vacRate * eff)) And that's it. And no matter what efficacy rate you pick (infection efficacy estimates for mRNA against Delta vary widely), the resultant rt will be less than the initial r0. And if it's less, then that effectively means that the disease is less contagious for that population, compared to how contagious it was pre-vaccination. And less contagious is better than more contagious. So now I am legitimately curious. What part of the above reasoning do you actually disagree with? (Incidentally, vaccination also improves your chances of avoiding future infection, even if you've already been infected.)
  - dude4you 5y ago
    you argumentation is correct but misses a point. the vaccs may encourage new variants due to evolutionary pressure.
    - tunesmith 5y ago
      That point is incorrect; discussed elsewhere.
  - dude4you 5y ago
    Other ideas https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/the-vaccinated-superspread-hypothesis https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/the-vaccinated-supersprea... It is all much more opaque than the "get your vacc and your old live comes back" evangelists want you too believe. Corona will stay.
    - skyde 5y ago
      Once everyone (young kid less than 5 years old) can get the vaccine if they want to, I really doubt Covid restriction will stay in place.
- dlp211 5y ago
  Let's be clear, mitigations were being removed when vaccination rates were increasing and hospital rates were decreasing. It's only because a significant enough portion of the country has decided that not getting vaccinated is more important to them and have caused our medical system to be put back under strain have the mitigations been put back in place.
  - monksy 5y ago
    It's that and that the more spreadable Indian/Delta Variant developed and took hold in April. (Variant name there for news references) Took the US 2 months to announce it was a concern.
  - osigurdson 5y ago
    80% of people 12 and up have received two doses of Pfizer or Moderna in Canada. COVID is still a major factor here (worse than ever in some regions with lower rates ~75%). [1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/more-than-80-per-cent-of-eligible-canadians-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19-1.5603485 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/more-than-80-per-c...
    - dlp211 5y ago
      And how many of the people effected by that are unvaccinated? You are simply re-stating what I said, as vaccines rates went up AND hospitalizations went down, mitigations were removed. Then the Delta variant hit and has been an absolute disaster for those who have refused to get vaccinated and our medical care system. 20% is a significant amount of people, and hospitalizations have gone up and therefore mitigations have been put back in place. I would love to get back to (semi-)normal, I'm sick of this shit. But I've done, and continue to do the things that are helping make things less worst, I wear a mask, I socially distance, I have my vaccine. If a new version of the vaccine came out that targeted the Delta version of Covid, I would get that too. And I don't believe that Covid is going to be eradicated by everyone getting vaccinated. In fact, I don't know anyone that believes that. What I and others believe is that if we get very close to 100% vaccination, we can lift many of the mitigations being put in place. Yes, people will still get Covid, but they will be less likely to get it, less likely to get sick if the do, less likely to have severe symptoms, less likely to go to the hospital, and less likely to die. And our hospitals won't be over run.
- pfooti 5y ago
  FWIW, an anti-vax cousin of mine has had covid three different times. Each time he recovered, but each time he kept spreading it. So don't count having had covid once as a blanket "I don't need the vax" card.
syshum 5y ago
For those that are keeping Track Dont wear a mask they do not work --> 2 weeks to flatten the curve ----> Wear a mask they work so amazing -----> Covid does not spread if you protest the police, but does if you protest mandates -------> Lock down until the vaccine ----------> Get the vaccine and take of the mask ----------------> Nope still gotta wear the mask ------------------> Got the vaccine, sorry still have to lock down until 70% are vaxxed ---------------------> nope 90% -------------------------> Nope 98% ----------------------------> nope need a booster now.... And that is not all of the shifting this idea that only one side is shifting the goals is laughably absurd Tell you what I will listen to "authority" when they start enforcing their rules on the rich and famous who seem to believe only their servants spread COVID but they are exempt. The politicians that proclaim by their actions "Rules for thee but not for meee"
- Natsu 5y ago
  So, you're not wrong that there have been plenty of shifts. Some of those were laughably optimistic even at the time, some of those are true (masks do work, but cloth masks suck). Some of the people are hypocritical and will get haircuts or whatever that they forbid others from doing. But you know what basically everyone is doing? Getting vaccinated. Even Trump got vaccinated and told others to do the same. [1][2] If it's some kind of poison, as many are memeing, you'd think we wouldn't want to do that. You can argue that there are long-term unknowns... but that's equally true of the virus. And I've seen literally nothing that the vaccine has caused that isn't known to also be caused by Covid. So I'd say not to get your science from journalists in general, wear a quality mask (N95 preferably, but at least surgical), and do what you can to lower the replication rate of this stupid virus below 1 so that it goes away. That last part is proving really hard so far. [1] https://www.deseret.com/2021/4/23/22399234/former-president-donald-trump-americans-coronavirus-vaccine-obama-bush-clinton-carter https://www.deseret.com/2021/4/23/22399234/former-president-... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-booed-alabama-rally-after-telling-supporters-get-vaccinated-n1277404 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-booed-al...
  - monksy 5y ago
    > (N95 preferably, but at least surgical), I wouldn't even go as low to recommend surgical (at least not without a mask fitter) KF94, KN95 (reputable), FFP2, or an higher quality N95 NIOSH (shame they won't make those for kids)
munk-a 5y ago
That the government is still visibly divided over whether vaccination is a good idea is what really troubles me here and it's pretty much purely America at this point. Canadian liberals don't like the Liberals - Liberals don't like the Conservatives and neither Liberals nor Conservatives like liberals. That all said every represented party in Canada (and almost every individual MP) is either pro-vax or losing a lot of clout right now. In the US the GOP is technically for vaccinations and sane mandates - but if you look at House Reps and Governors you'll see a lot of anti-mask mandate laws and other protests. The government is of the people - but it should be the best of us not the biggest conspiracy theorists among us (having one or two is fine - but this problem is a lot bigger than just Marjorie Taylor Greene)
- jolux 5y ago
  > In the US the GOP is technically for vaccinations and sane mandates Some GOP members support these things. Many do not, as you mention the governors and reps.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    I meant specifically the party leadership (since US political parties don't have formal representation) - If you look at McConnell and even Trump (when not hyperbolizing) you'll see they very consistently message that everyone should be vaccinated. One of the things I sort of appreciate about Trump is the fact that, even while getting booed at most of his events over it, he's continued to mention that he was vaccinated and it's perfectly safe. (This isn't meant to devolve into things we think about Trump - I just wanted to call out that single point).
    - noduerme 5y ago
      Yeah, give that guy a medal for just once not saying what his lunatic base wants to hear.
    - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
      Each and every politician is an individual with his own beliefs and biases. To expect an entire group to form a single consensus is no different than expecting the entire American populace to form a single consensus, is it?
dang 5y ago
We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699410.

by monksy 5y ago

dude4you 5y ago

Ok, take the vacc. (I would have taken it if had been offered it before I got corona.) Ok. Then what? What will happen? Corona goes away? Seriously? Corona is here to stay my friend.

alexpw 5y ago
You should still get vaccinated. Post-infection immunity is very heterogeneous, with respect to what level of protection you'll have, and how long it will last. You might have great protection for a bit, or you might get reinfected just like the first time, like many have. The combined protection of natural with vaccination will be better than just one or the other. I hope you stay safe.
- dude4you 5y ago
  an israli paper claimed my immunity is 13 times better now compared to vaccinated people.
  - monksy 5y ago
    What's the paper?
    - pseudo0 5y ago
      I'd guess it's this one: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1.full.pdf https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
    - dude4you 5y ago
      https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
      - monksy 5y ago
        It's been recently published and the warning on it is: This article is a preprint and has not been peer-reviewed [what does this mean?]. It reports new medical research that has yet to be evaluated and so should not be used to guide clinical practice. It's not something that can be held up as evidence in any direction at the moment.
  - munk-a 5y ago
    The CDC says[1] > Yes, you should be vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19 because: > Research has not yet shown how long you are protected from getting COVID-19 again after you recover from COVID-19. > Vaccination helps protect you even if you’ve already had COVID-19. an Israeli paper[2] (probably the one you're thinking of) also mentions that yes - your immunity from having the disease is better than a vaccine but getting both still provides a much better outcome. Please note that this study is very recent and may be overturned in review. > This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant. So maybe you'll end up super-immune! Congratulations! (now go get vaccinated) 1. https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/faq.html 2. https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v1 https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.08.24.21262415v...
monksy 5y ago
Take the vaccine (Moderna if you can pick), significantly reduce the health risk of covid on you. Also, helps to dampen the overall rate in the county and reduces the risk new mutations that may create more breakthroughs. If you're complaining about the withdraw of mitigations, that's because people and states have refused to participate in the mitigations as a whole. If they were compliant, we'd be in a situation like Australia or Taiwan. Masks optional, nearly normal (they have restrictive borders), open concerts, and lockdowns only when a couple of cases pop up.
- dude4you 5y ago
  "and reduces the risk new mutations" likely the opposite is true. It is called evolutionary pressure. I will get vaccinated next year since I move back to China then. They insist and I am okay with it since I get something in return.
  - monksy 5y ago
    > "and reduces the risk new mutations" likely the opposite is true. It is called evolutionary pressure. Chicken and egg problem: You can't have evolutionary pressure without an environment to operate in. Vaccines reduce the space in which they can attempt to successfully mutate.
    - SailingSperm 5y ago
      That environment of evolutionary pressure is exactly what is being created. An environment where strains with higher fitness for immune escape are more able to spread, in a compounding manner. Particularly with leaky vaccines as we're using for c19 that do not prevent contraction with high efficacy. Please read this - even just the 'Prevention' section for a real world example. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marek%27s_disease#Prevention or read how antibiotic resistance comes about, which seems to be less contentious / politicly affected... But the same evolutionary mechanism is at work.
  - tunesmith 5y ago
judahmeek 5y ago
So is measles, polio, & chickenpox, but those vaccines have still made a huge difference in general quality of life.
tunesmith 5y ago
You can walk yourself through the reasons why with simple math, really. Every disease has an estimated R0. The number of people an infected person will infect. You probably have heard of this. Delta, last I checked, has an estimated R0 of between 5 and 9.5. Vaccination levels reduce that. And it's a simple equation. All you need to know is the vaccination rate for your population, and an estimated efficacy rate of the vaccine. And from that, you can figure the new adjusted Rt: rt = r0 * (1 - (vacRate * eff)) And that's it. And no matter what efficacy rate you pick (infection efficacy estimates for mRNA against Delta vary widely), the resultant rt will be less than the initial r0. And if it's less, then that effectively means that the disease is less contagious for that population, compared to how contagious it was pre-vaccination. And less contagious is better than more contagious. So now I am legitimately curious. What part of the above reasoning do you actually disagree with? (Incidentally, vaccination also improves your chances of avoiding future infection, even if you've already been infected.)
- dude4you 5y ago
  you argumentation is correct but misses a point. the vaccs may encourage new variants due to evolutionary pressure.
  - tunesmith 5y ago
    That point is incorrect; discussed elsewhere.
- dude4you 5y ago
  Other ideas https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/the-vaccinated-superspread-hypothesis https://boriquagato.substack.com/p/the-vaccinated-supersprea... It is all much more opaque than the "get your vacc and your old live comes back" evangelists want you too believe. Corona will stay.
  - skyde 5y ago
    Once everyone (young kid less than 5 years old) can get the vaccine if they want to, I really doubt Covid restriction will stay in place.
dlp211 5y ago
Let's be clear, mitigations were being removed when vaccination rates were increasing and hospital rates were decreasing. It's only because a significant enough portion of the country has decided that not getting vaccinated is more important to them and have caused our medical system to be put back under strain have the mitigations been put back in place.
- monksy 5y ago
  It's that and that the more spreadable Indian/Delta Variant developed and took hold in April. (Variant name there for news references) Took the US 2 months to announce it was a concern.
- osigurdson 5y ago
  80% of people 12 and up have received two doses of Pfizer or Moderna in Canada. COVID is still a major factor here (worse than ever in some regions with lower rates ~75%). [1] https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/more-than-80-per-cent-of-eligible-canadians-fully-vaccinated-against-covid-19-1.5603485 https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/more-than-80-per-c...
  - dlp211 5y ago
    And how many of the people effected by that are unvaccinated? You are simply re-stating what I said, as vaccines rates went up AND hospitalizations went down, mitigations were removed. Then the Delta variant hit and has been an absolute disaster for those who have refused to get vaccinated and our medical care system. 20% is a significant amount of people, and hospitalizations have gone up and therefore mitigations have been put back in place. I would love to get back to (semi-)normal, I'm sick of this shit. But I've done, and continue to do the things that are helping make things less worst, I wear a mask, I socially distance, I have my vaccine. If a new version of the vaccine came out that targeted the Delta version of Covid, I would get that too. And I don't believe that Covid is going to be eradicated by everyone getting vaccinated. In fact, I don't know anyone that believes that. What I and others believe is that if we get very close to 100% vaccination, we can lift many of the mitigations being put in place. Yes, people will still get Covid, but they will be less likely to get it, less likely to get sick if the do, less likely to have severe symptoms, less likely to go to the hospital, and less likely to die. And our hospitals won't be over run.
pfooti 5y ago
FWIW, an anti-vax cousin of mine has had covid three different times. Each time he recovered, but each time he kept spreading it. So don't count having had covid once as a blanket "I don't need the vax" card.

syshum 5y ago

For those that are keeping Track Dont wear a mask they do not work --> 2 weeks to flatten the curve ----> Wear a mask they work so amazing -----> Covid does not spread if you protest the police, but does if you protest mandates -------> Lock down until the vaccine ----------> Get the vaccine and take of the mask ----------------> Nope still gotta wear the mask ------------------> Got the vaccine, sorry still have to lock down until 70% are vaxxed ---------------------> nope 90% -------------------------> Nope 98% ----------------------------> nope need a booster now.... And that is not all of the shifting this idea that only one side is shifting the goals is laughably absurd Tell you what I will listen to "authority" when they start enforcing their rules on the rich and famous who seem to believe only their servants spread COVID but they are exempt. The politicians that proclaim by their actions "Rules for thee but not for meee"

Natsu 5y ago
So, you're not wrong that there have been plenty of shifts. Some of those were laughably optimistic even at the time, some of those are true (masks do work, but cloth masks suck). Some of the people are hypocritical and will get haircuts or whatever that they forbid others from doing. But you know what basically everyone is doing? Getting vaccinated. Even Trump got vaccinated and told others to do the same. [1][2] If it's some kind of poison, as many are memeing, you'd think we wouldn't want to do that. You can argue that there are long-term unknowns... but that's equally true of the virus. And I've seen literally nothing that the vaccine has caused that isn't known to also be caused by Covid. So I'd say not to get your science from journalists in general, wear a quality mask (N95 preferably, but at least surgical), and do what you can to lower the replication rate of this stupid virus below 1 so that it goes away. That last part is proving really hard so far. [1] https://www.deseret.com/2021/4/23/22399234/former-president-donald-trump-americans-coronavirus-vaccine-obama-bush-clinton-carter https://www.deseret.com/2021/4/23/22399234/former-president-... [2] https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-booed-alabama-rally-after-telling-supporters-get-vaccinated-n1277404 https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/donald-trump/trump-booed-al...
- monksy 5y ago
  > (N95 preferably, but at least surgical), I wouldn't even go as low to recommend surgical (at least not without a mask fitter) KF94, KN95 (reputable), FFP2, or an higher quality N95 NIOSH (shame they won't make those for kids)

munk-a 5y ago

That the government is still visibly divided over whether vaccination is a good idea is what really troubles me here and it's pretty much purely America at this point. Canadian liberals don't like the Liberals - Liberals don't like the Conservatives and neither Liberals nor Conservatives like liberals. That all said every represented party in Canada (and almost every individual MP) is either pro-vax or losing a lot of clout right now. In the US the GOP is technically for vaccinations and sane mandates - but if you look at House Reps and Governors you'll see a lot of anti-mask mandate laws and other protests. The government is of the people - but it should be the best of us not the biggest conspiracy theorists among us (having one or two is fine - but this problem is a lot bigger than just Marjorie Taylor Greene)

jolux 5y ago
> In the US the GOP is technically for vaccinations and sane mandates Some GOP members support these things. Many do not, as you mention the governors and reps.
- munk-a 5y ago
  I meant specifically the party leadership (since US political parties don't have formal representation) - If you look at McConnell and even Trump (when not hyperbolizing) you'll see they very consistently message that everyone should be vaccinated. One of the things I sort of appreciate about Trump is the fact that, even while getting booed at most of his events over it, he's continued to mention that he was vaccinated and it's perfectly safe. (This isn't meant to devolve into things we think about Trump - I just wanted to call out that single point).
  - noduerme 5y ago
    Yeah, give that guy a medal for just once not saying what his lunatic base wants to hear.
  - TedDoesntTalk 5y ago
    Each and every politician is an individual with his own beliefs and biases. To expect an entire group to form a single consensus is no different than expecting the entire American populace to form a single consensus, is it?

dang 5y ago

We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699410 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=28699410.