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Would we be having this crisis if it wasn't for the decisions to close nuclear reactors and the US sabotaging the Nord Stream gas pipeline? [0] [0]: https://fr
by teekert 5y ago
Would we be having this crisis if it wasn't for the decisions to close nuclear reactors and the US sabotaging the Nord Stream gas pipeline? [0]
[0]: https://freewestmedia.com/2020/07/06/us-intensifies-pressure-on-germany-over-nord-stream-2/ https://freewestmedia.com/2020/07/06/us-intensifies-pressure...
- Arnt 5y agoYes, probably. Closing many reactors has been decided and close dates have been set, but so far few have been closed. And there's enough other pipeline capacity, technically speaking, except that the British probably disagree. But limited capacity into Britain does not cause a global problem.
- vorpalhex 5y agoPutting diplomatic pressure to stop relying on Russian gas, after Russia invaded a neighbor, is not sabotage.
- teekert 5y agoI think it's more complicated than that, and if we're going to call nations on "invading other countries", or meddling in countries internal affairs, we would not be going for US LNG either. Edit: And I think the EU is capable of putting pressure on Russia by itself, as they/we did. The US pressure is purely self serving and for their own economic wins. Which is fine I guess, I just would like it if we were not so sensitive to it here in the EU. It would save us citizens a lot of money right now. Edit 2: the Russians would like it too: https://www.rt.com/business/476844-eu-russia-us-sanctions/ https://www.rt.com/business/476844-eu-russia-us-sanctions/
- farmerstan 5y agoExporting natural gas is extremely difficult so the US isn’t profiting from it economically. That’s why natural gas is distributed via pipelines. Sending canisters of natural gas back and forth isn’t efficient.
- teekert 5y agoIt depends on your goals, maybe the goals are political (and very long term economical), not economic (in the short term). Many wars turned out to not be economic in the short term, but one can argue that the US has benefited from the rubblization of the middle east (like the shenanigans pulled in Iran among others, as described in "confessions of an Economic Hitman.")
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y agoHrm. Hr. Hm. Why do they say so differently then? https://www.lngfacts.org/ https://www.lngfacts.org/
- throwaway894345 5y agoWho are the countries which haven’t invaded other countries? As sordid as the Iraq war was, it seems strictly better to to topple an oppressive dictator than to go around annexing territories (or assassinating dissidents in EU countries, or installing dictators in foreign countries, or meddling in foreign elections, or jailing rival politicians in your own country, or so on). I think comparing countries’ sins is pretty fruitless in general, but I hope we can agree that whatever criticism you may have for the US, Putin’s Russia is on another level.
- raxxorrax 5y agoThe Russians could make the same argument of the US meddling in Ukraine, before Crimea happened. Nato denies it, but from their perspective it can make sense. Perhaps they only perceived it that way when the US got involved in the Maidan protests. That said, wrong perception is sometimes an excuse.
- throwaway894345 5y agoWhat kind of meddling did the US do that is on the same level as a full-scale invasion? Moreover, while it’s flat-out ridiculous to argue that the US and Russia are in the same ballpark in terms of harm to Europe (or anyone else), we don’t need to fixate on this comparison as though there is a dichotomy.
- raxxorrax 5y agoYou don't have to compare the steps they took, you have to think about what the US would do if Russia gets involved in elections in Mexico or Canada.
- throwaway894345 5y agoWhy? The US doesn't get involved in European elections (so your hypothetical doesn't even make sense), but that's besides the point. What does the US have to do with whether or not Europe gets its energy from Russia? Europe doesn't have to choose to put its energy supply in the hands of Russia or US, there are other suppliers and diversification is a really good alternative.
- onepointsixC 5y agoWhy are you leaving out the context that the principal defense alliance is with America specifically in defense against Russia? Furthermore, it's not just US pressure, much of Eastern Europe has been pushing against the NS2. Claiming that the US is acting purely in self serving motives is wildly disingenuous.
- bumbada 5y ago>Why are you leaving out the context that the principal defense alliance is with America specifically in defense against Russia? Specifically against the Soviet Union, a communistic totalitarian regime that does not exist anymore. Specifically it never included Ukraine as member, and specifically the US promised that NATO will never expand to more than the original members. The only countries in Europe that are against the NS2 are those that have already pipelines or interests and are economically harmed by more competence. >Claiming that the US is acting purely in self serving motives is wildly disingenuous. Claiming that the US is acting purely in self serving motives is telling the truth. The US can mind its own business.
- sergeykish 5y agoSpecifically Russian Federation has invaded Ukraine. Specifically after signing Budapest Memorandum (Ukraine's nuclear disarming). Specifically after signing Russian–Ukrainian Friendship Treaty. Specifically without even admitting invasion! This totally invalidates all the claims regarding NATO. That's defense alliance, everyone who has missed opportunity to join is a total fool. Russian Federation is autocratic regime, just look at the last "elections". East Europe countries were under USSR occupation for 40 years. Poland is going to switch to LNG to break dependency on RF gas.
- anticodon 5y agoSpecifically after Ukraine attempted to join NATO since 1991. Specifically after Ukraine made speaking Russian illegal and started treating Russian speaking population as second class citizens. Specifically after Ukraine made plans to give Crimea to US to build a US military base.
- true_religion 5y agoThe US is the ally of most of Western Europe (this is important because when the US invades a country, it does so with the help or at least foreknowledge of its allies)... Russia is a neighbor at best. However, if the US invaded Italy with little warning and took over Florence because it felt it needed warm water port in Europe, or access to a better wine supply then Western Europe would rightly panic and wonder how they can disentangle themselves from US influence. The reason the US is allowed so much influence in the first place is because its stays out of territorial disputes in Europe---heck even if one occurs, it historically drags its feet for years.
- kongin 5y agoIf the US invaded Panama to secure it's warm water ... Oh wait.
- tick_tock_tick 5y ago.... That's the whole point the USA doesn't invade it's European allies.
- Ekaros 5y agoBut it has allied itself with those who did. And then did not fight to liberate them...
- anticodon 5y agoUSA invaded Europe during WWII and never left. I still consider Italy and Germany occupied countries. They are not independent, they're occupied for 76 years. Why and how US will invade its colonies? Italy and Germany cannot resist any decision made by US. They have US military bases on their soil and their own army is deliberately made smaller and weaker than personnel of US military bases.
- true_religion 5y agoGermany has the 2nd largest military in Europe, just slight smaller than France.[1] However comparing it to a superpower is nonsensical. The US has the 3rd largest military in the world, beaten only by India and China who have populations in the billions. But just below the US is Russia with the 4h largest military in the world, and the largest (by a huge margin) on the European continent. Now the era of colonialism was only possible due to vast technological differences between the two parties, and the good luck of the Europeans finding empires in turmoil (Songhai, Benin, Aztecs, China, etc.). It’s extremely difficult to subjugate much less rule a far off colony. The US couldn’t even manage it with Afghanistan so I doubt they’d have much luck with Germany. On the other hand, it’s much easier to conquer your neighbor, push them back and simply put your own people in place. Russia did that for about 50 years and ruled half of Europe. I would wager Germans have more to fear from a revived Russia run by an KGB agent who grew up during the time of Empire, than a US who was most recently run by a television reality show host. 1. https://rlist.io/l/largest-militaries-in-europe https://rlist.io/l/largest-militaries-in-europe
- Tomte 5y agoGermany does not rely on Russian gas. It's even building expensive infrastructure for American liquified gas. Germany simply wants to have both options. America doesn't want that, because in "good times" Russian gas is much cheaper.
- akmarinov 5y agoYeah, it "only" imports 40% of its gas from Russia. 29% from the Netherlands, 21% from Norway. The US doesn't even register, so it's lumped in with "others".
- Tomte 5y agoSo what? It can start buying American gas within what? Weeks? All the infrastructure for the ships and further distribution is being built right now. Anerica is under "others", because it's too expensive.
- thinkcontext 5y agoThere isn't enough LNG import capacity at present to replace Russian pipeline exports. There are quite a few slated to be built but these projects take a long time to get built. Also, even if there was sufficient capacity to import an equal volume of LNG there's still the problem of distributing it. Pipelines and other infrastructure have to be built to take care of new chokepoints.
- LargoLasskhyfv 5y agoIsn't there? If I look at the not up to date maps from https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/ https://www.gie.eu/publications/maps/ there is since years. We can import gas which is delivered as CLNG via Rotterdam, Zeebrugge, maybe even Dunkerque. The infrastructure is there since years, and has enough capacity. What is happening at the moment is just caused by speculation, hoarders, and politics. All this crying is from the uninformed, multiplied by the presstitutes.
- 5y ago
- WastingMyTime89 5y ago> Putting diplomatic pressure to stop relying on Russian gas Economic sanctions and legal threats towards executives of any companies working on the project go a bit further than diplomatic pressure. It's probably the closest things to an act of war you can do without doing one. Interfering in the international dealing of a foreign country can definitely be seen as sabotage. I personally stoped viewing the USA as an ally of the EU after this intervention. But to be fair I already had serious doubt after they crippled our diplomatic efforts in Iran.
- mistrial9 5y agoreminds one of Napolean
- throwaway894345 5y agoPersonally I think closing the nuclear reactors is a terrible idea, considering nuclear is the only clean base load generation we have. But stopping a Russian gas pipeline seems eminently desirable considering that fossil fuels and Russian hegemony are both really bad things. Perhaps the US ought not to have interfered, but it seems like a desirable outcome nonetheless. Hopefully the energy crisis will result in the recommissioning of those nuclear reactors (if that’s even possible) or some better alternative.
- makomk 5y agoProbably, but maybe not now. Russia has plenty of pipeline capacity to export gas that they could be using but have decided not to, and the general consensus seems to be that they're likely doing this to put pressure on Europe to approve Nord Stream 2. The thing is, they have a history of using their gas supplies as a political weapon, so if it wasn't this... Nord Stream 2 and the cementing of European dependence on Russian gas it represents seems like a terrible idea geopolitically. The thing is, the more powerful European countries like Germany which pushed for it didn't think they'd be the ones it'd hurt.
- bildung 5y ago> Nord Stream 2 and the cementing of European dependence on Russian gas it represents seems like a terrible idea geopolitically. Why? Central Europe isn't that dependent on that gas, because Russia isn't the only source. OTOH Russia now has an incentive to keep the gas and thus the Euros flowing.
- Iwan-Zotow 5y ago> they could be using but have decided not to This magical euro-thinking just boggles my mind. Do you really think if some euro-fokks somewhere in Straussburg make a wish for cheap NG, billions of cubic meter, then gas should immediately appears and be available for a penny per cm? Really?
- jeltz 5y agoNo, but German could just have not shut down their nuclear power plants.
- makomk 5y agoWell, if the gas doesn't exist and can't be produced in the first place then it hardly matters whether Nord Stream 2 is up and running does it? The only reason the non-operation of Nord Stream 2 would matter is if Russia had gas available but was constrained in getting it to Europe by pipeline capacity, which they're not - there's an unusual amount of capacity just going unused. Yet they've been dropping not-so-subtle hints that the problem would just go away if Europe approved Nord Stream 2. The only way for that to work is if Russia could sell Europe gas but intentionally chose not to for geopolitical leverage reasons.
- kwhitefoot 5y agoPart of the problem in the UK is limited gas storage capacity. Another problem is the slow adoption of wind and solar generally. A third is the slow pace of construction of interconnects between the various national grids. The arguments about solar not being available at night and the wind not always blowing would be mitigated if we could more easily transport energy to where it is needed. The crisis, if it really is one, is mostly caused by blinkered politicians and short term business thinking. But you are right in a sense; Russia is just making it clear that they can turn off, or change the price of, the gas supply whenever they feel like it which makes the idea of being even more reliant on it rather scary to me.
- CountDrewku 5y agoHow would solar ever be a good option in the UK?
- pornel 5y agoPlants use solar, and it's pretty green here ;) Annual average kWh/m^2 in the UK ranges from 50%-75% of what you'd get in Spain or Italy. That's enough even for domestic solar panels to pay for themselves.
- cm2187 5y agoEven wind. I had not realised how volatile it was (I expected some sort of diversification at the scale of a country) [1]. It basically requires to duplicate your entire power production capacity with a more dependable technology to make up for the low days. And I don't understand how more wind will improve things. More unpredictable capacity means these episodes where the country finds itself short will be more frequent. [1] https://gridwatch.co.uk/ https://gridwatch.co.uk/
- sentinel 5y agoEurope can probably get dirt cheap gas from the Russians, the question is – at what cost?
- sergeykish 5y agoBelarus gets gas quite cheap. The cost is independence, that brings RF standards of living under autocratic regime which "fights" against entire world (while its leaders gets enormous wealth).
- tablespoon 5y ago> [0]: https://freewestmedia.com/2020/07/06/us-intensifies-pressure-on-germany-over-nord-stream-2/ https://freewestmedia.com/2020/07/06/us-intensifies-pressure... Might want to be careful with that source. It looks like it's run by a "Swedish nationalist politician" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1vra_Suk https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V%C3%A1vra_Suk) and appears to be running stories based on the Russian government-owned TASS newswire (e.g. https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/24/unionists-rise-up-against-melbournes-draconian-lockdown/ https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/24/unionists-rise-up-again...). Also this article shows a pretty bizarre misunderstanding to push an Ivermectin angle: https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/26/french-doctor-violently-arrested-for-prescribing-ivermectin/ https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/26/french-doctor-violently... > The Associated Press has meanwhile tried to claim that the doctor was not arrested for prescribing Ivermectin and that this was “fake news” but patients treated by the physician confirmed that Théron had been prescribing the alternative life-saving treatment. The AP article says he was arrested for assault, after throwing things at someone who was delivering documents to him about an investigation into problems with his medical practice. "Free West Media" seems to be trying to imply his Ivermectin prescriptions are proof he was arrested for doing that, but that doesn't follow at all. The Ivermectin prescriptions and assault seem like they'd be legally independent events, and it's quite plausible he'd never have been arrested if he hadn't been so unreasonable as to throw things at people. Also, here are some of their most recent editorials: The Covid Lie grows like Pinocchio’s nose (https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/27/the-covid-lie-grows-like-pinocchios-nose/ https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/27/the-covid-lie-grows-lik...) Vetting Afghan immigrants for a religious comorbidity (Islam) (https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/23/vetting-afghan-immigrants-for-a-religious-comorbidity-islam/ https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/23/vetting-afghan-immigran...) Terrorists in Daraa, Syria hoarding large amounts of cash (https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/16/terrorists-in-daraa-syria-hoarding-large-amounts-of-cash/ https://freewestmedia.com/2021/09/16/terrorists-in-daraa-syr...) Daraa appears to be city that was recently captured by the Syrian government from the rebels. Calling the rebels "terrorists" seems to indicate a strong pro-Assad orientation.
- nameme274728 5y agoThis link indeed seems to not be a reputable source of information - e.g. one that has been around for a long time or where people ine trusts, like well known scientists, publish once in a while; that's how one can spot a fake news outlet.
- emptysongglass 5y agoI'm happy about this. The EU wants to have its cake and eat it too by making trade deals both with the US and some really terrible regimes. One of Merkel's final desperate acts on her way out was to try and push through a mega trade deal with China which was thankfully shot down by other EU members over Xinjiang. My own country, Denmark, gleefully agreed to push Nord Stream 2 pipe through its waters. The EU may commit the fewest atrocities but they sure do love putting money in the coffers of those who commit them. Here's what we can try doing instead: build more nuclear reactors, stop funding our democratic oases by throwing money at autocratic regimes, and stop pissing in each other's milk so we can become a real global power that doesn't have to kowtow to the awful to make ends meet.
- cyberpunk 5y agoSo you don’t own any electronics with Chinese components then? Nothing is as black and white as this..
- emptysongglass 5y agoOf course I do. But making deals with autocratic regimes is not the way forward for the EU, at least not if we hope to practice the democracy we preach.
- Strom 5y agoBeing dependent on something isn't a good reason to become dependent on even more things. The EU needs to build both independent energy infrastructure and independent electronics infrastructure. When dependence makes economic sense, it should at least be done with allies or compatible world view regimes.